Perplexity CEO谈为何浏览器是AI的杀手级应用

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You can

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go to adeo.com/decoder, and you'll get 15% off your first year. That's a tti0.com/decoder.

AI发展迅猛，快得让人难以跟上。事实上，ServiceNow最新AI成熟度指数显示，得分较去年下降了20%。但这没关系，因为AI不是短跑竞赛，而是一场马拉松。

AI is moving fast. So fast, it's hard to keep up. In fact, in ServiceNow's latest AI maturity index, scores dipped 20% from last year. But that's okay because AI isn't a sprint. It's a marathon.

或许今日落后，明日您就能成为领跑者。深入了解ServiceNow的AI成熟度指数，探索如何让创新速度匹配您的雄心。请访问servicenow.com/aimaturity。

You may be behind today, but tomorrow, you could be a pace setter. Dive into ServiceNow's AI maturity index and see how you can innovate as fast as your ambitions. Visit servicenow.com/aimaturity.

家庭公路旅行总有种特别的魅力。摇下车窗，调高音乐，零食散落各处，那些故事会成为多年流传的内部笑话。而现在又多了一个爱上它的理由——为让全车人开心的鸡肉三明治中途停靠。Culver's新品系列，无论是酥脆、香辣还是炙烤款，均采用100%全白肉鸡胸，搭配清爽生菜、熟番茄、柔滑蛋黄酱和完美脆嫩的新鲜酸黄瓜，夹在烤制的布里欧面包中。配上一杯冰爽雪碧，这将成为值得铭记的午餐停留。

There's just something about family road trips. Windows down, music up, snacks everywhere, and stories that turn into inside jokes for years. And now there's one more thing to love, pulling over for a chicken sandwich that makes the whole car happy. Culver's new lineup, crispy, spicy, or grilled, is made with 100% whole white meat chicken breast, topped with cool, crunchy lettuce, ripe tomato, creamy mayo, and perfectly crisp fresh pickles all in a toasted brioche bun. Pair your favorite with a refreshing cold Sprite, and you've got a lunch stop worth remembering.

这样的餐食能让欢声笑语持续更久，安全带也多系一会儿。无论您前往何方，都请停驻这个让全家团聚的站点。就近查找餐厅或通过culver's.com在线订购。

It's the kind of meal that keeps spirits high and seat belts buckled up a little longer. So wherever you're headed, make a stop that brings everyone together. Find a restaurant near you or order online at culver's.com.

欢迎收听《解码器》。我是Alex Heath，《The Verge》副主编兼《命令行》通讯作者。在Neelai休假期间，我将主持周四的节目。今天我们要探讨AI如何改变我们使用网络的方式。如果您和我一样，可能已经在使用ChatGPT这类应用进行搜索。

Welcome to Decoder. I'm Alex Heath, deputy editor at The Verge and author of the Command Line newsletter. I'm hosting our Thursday episodes while Neelai is out on bruntleaf. Today, we're talking about how AI is changing the way we use the web. If you're like me, you're probably already using apps like ChatGPT to search for things.

但最近，我对网页浏览器本身的未来产生了浓厚兴趣。这让我请来了今天的嘉宾。Perplexity CEO Aravind Srinivas坚信浏览器将是构建更有用AI的舞台。他刚发布了Comet——一款Mac和Windows平台的AI网页浏览器，目前仍处于邀请制测试阶段。我试用后觉得相当有趣。

But lately, I've become very interested in the future of the web browser itself. That brings me to my guest today. Perplexity CEO Aravind Srinivas is betting that the browser is where more useful AI will get built. He just released Comet, an AI web browser for the Mac and Windows that's still in an invite only beta. I've been using it, and it's pretty interesting.

Aravind并非孤军奋战。OpenAI也在开发自己的浏览器，此外还有像The Browser Company推出的Dia等AI原生浏览器。谷歌则可能因美国司法部反垄断诉讼获胜而被迫分拆Chrome。若此情况发生，将为Perplexity等初创公司赢得市场份额、彻底改变大众与网络交互方式创造机遇。本次对话中，我和Aravind还探讨了Perplexity的未来、AI人才争夺战，以及他为何认为人们终将愿为单个AI提示支付数千美元。

Aravind's not alone here. OpenAI is also working on its own web browser, and then there are other AI native web browsers out there like Dia from the browser company. Then there's Google, which may be forced to spin off Chrome if the US Department of Justice prevails in its big antitrust case. If that happens, it could provide an opening for startups like Perplexity to win market share and fundamentally change how more people interact with the web. In this conversation, Aravind and I also discussed the future of Perplexity, the AI talent wars, and why he thinks people will eventually pay thousands of dollars for a single AI prompt.

希望你喜欢这次对话，就像我一样享受。我们开始吧。Aravind，在深入探讨Comet及其工作原理之前，我想先回顾一下我们四月份在《命令行》通讯中的对话。当时我们谈到你为何要做这个项目，你当时说开发浏览器的原因是‘它可能是构建智能代理的最佳方式’。这个观点一直萦绕在我心头，我认为后来其他人的一些新发布也验证了这一点。

I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Here we go. Aravind, before we get into Comet and how it works, I actually wanna go back to our last conversation in April for my newsletter command line. We were talking about why you were doing this and you told me at the time that the reason we're doing the browser is quote, it might be the best way to build agents. And that idea has stuck with me since then and I think it's been validated by others and some other recent launches.

但在深入之前，能否请你详细阐述为什么认为浏览器是通往AI代理的必经之路？

But before we get into things, can you just expand on that idea why you think the browser is actually the route to an AI agent?

当然。首先，什么是AI代理？人们期望的AI代理大致是能替你实际执行事务的东西。这个定义显然很模糊，就像AI聊天机器人本身也是模糊概念。

Sure. I mean, what is an AI agent? Let's start from there. A rough description of what people want out of an AI agent is something that can actually go and do stuff for you. It's very vague obviously, just like how an AI chatbot is vague by definition.

人们希望它能应对各种需求。代理也是如此——它应该能端到端执行任何工作流，从接收指令到最终完成任务。那么核心需求是什么？它需要上下文，对吧？

People just want it to do, like respond to anything. The same thing is true for agents. It should be able to carry out any workflow end to end from instruction to actually completion of the task. Okay, then you boil that down to what does it actually need to do it? It needs context, right?

它需要从第三方应用获取上下文，需要代表你在那些应用上执行操作。因此你需要已登录的第三方应用环境，需要访问其中数据，但要以无需反复授权的方式运作。同时当代理无法完成任务时（毕竟当前推理模型远非完美），你能随时接管操作。

It needs to pull in context from your third party apps. It needs to go and like take actions on those third party apps on your behalf. So you need logged in versions of your third party apps. You need to access your data from those third party apps, but do it in a way where it doesn't actually constantly ask you to art again and again, it doesn't actually need your permission to do a lot of the things. At the same time, you can take over it and do it complete the things when it's not able to do it because no AI agent is foolproof, especially when we are at a time when reasoning models are still like far from perfection, right?

所以你需要一个人机共用的界面：登录无缝衔接，客户端数据易于调用，控制方式符合直觉。即使出现差错也不会造成实质损害，你随时可以接管未完成的任务。什么样的环境能最直接实现这些，又不必创建虚拟服务器或让用户担忧隐私问题？就是浏览器。所有操作可保留在客户端，既安全又透明。

So you want this one interface that the agent and the human can both operate in in the same manner, where logins are actually seamless, client side data is easy to use and controlling it is pretty natural. Nothing is going to like truly be damaging if something doesn't work, you can still take over from the agent and like complete it when you feel like it's not able to do it. What is that environment in which this can be done in the most straightforward way without creating virtual servers with all your logins and like having users worry about privacy and stuff like that? It's the browser. Everything can live on the client side, everything can stay secure.

代理仅以与你完全相同的方式访问必要信息。这样你能清晰理解代理行为——它并非黑箱，你有完全可见性。当代理偏离轨道时你可随时中止并手动完成任务，也可设置代理需获得许可才能执行操作。

It only access information that it needs to complete the task in the literal same way you access those websites yourself. That way you get to understand what the agent is doing. It's not like a black box. You get full transparency and visibility and you can just stop the agent when you feel like it's going off the rails and just complete the task yourself. And you can also like have the agent ask for your permission to do anything.

这种控制度、透明度与信任感，结合我们使用数十年的浏览器环境——用如此熟悉的前端来承载‘AI替你办事’的新概念，正是我们重构浏览器的完美理由。

So that level of control, transparency, trust in an environment that we're used to for like multiple decades, which is the browser, such a familiar front end to introduce some a new concept of AI is going and doing things for you makes perfect sense for us to reimagine the browser.

你们是如何构建Comet的？初次打开时感觉很熟悉，像Chrome。据我所知它基于Chromium——谷歌维护的开源底层架构。这使得数据导入非常便捷，我震惊于仅需点击一次就能将Chrome的联系人甚至扩展程序全部迁移到Comet。

How did you go about building Comet? When I first opened it, it felt familiar. It felt like Chrome and my understanding it's built on Chromium, the open source kind of substrate of Chrome that Google maintains. And that allows you to have a lot of easy data importing. I was struck when I first opened it that it only took one click to basically bring all my contacts from Chrome over to Comet, even my extensions.

为什么选择基于Chromium开发，而非完全从零开始？

So why decide to go that route, build it on Chromium versus doing something fully from scratch?

首先，Chromium对世界做出了巨大贡献。对吧？他们在将标签页重新构想为进程、安全加密方案以及核心后端性能——作为渲染引擎的Chromium表现都非常出色。这些成果已经足够完善，无需重复造轮子。更何况它还是个开源项目。

First of all, Chromium is a great contribution to the world. Right? Most of the things they did on reimagining tabs as processes, the way they've gone about like security, encryption, and and like just the performance, the core back end performance of Chromium as an engine, rendering engines that they have is all like really good. Like there's no need to reinvent that. And at the same time, it's an open source project.

因此为Perplexity招聘开发者很容易。他们可以参与这个通用浏览器的开发，特别是基于开放标准的项目。我们也希望持续为Chromium贡献代码——不只是消费Chromium来打造产品，更想回馈生态圈。这是很自然的事。

So it's easy to hire developers for a perplexity. They can come work on the common browser, especially if it's something that has open standards. And we want to continue contributing to Chromium ourselves. So we don't want to just consume Chromium and build a product out of it, but we actually want to give give back to the ecosystem. So that's natural.

其次，Chromium已是主流浏览器。Chrome、Edge（也是Chromium分支）、Doctor Go、Brave都基于它，只有Safari使用WebKit。既然它已是市场主导，就没必要另起炉灶。UI方面我们认为保留用户最熟悉的Chrome界面更合理——Safari的界面褒贬不一，且市场份额小得多，还要考虑导入功能兼容性。

And the second thing is like, it's a dominant browser right now, like Chrome and and almost if you actually include Edge, which is also a Chromium fork, Doctor Go, Brave, they're all like Chromium forks, only Safari is based on WebKit. So it's actually the dominant browser and there's no need to like reinvent the wheel here. In terms of UI, we felt like it would be better to make retain the most familiar UI people already are used to, which honestly is the Chrome UI. Safari is a slightly different UI and some people like it, some people do not. And it's still like a much smaller share of the market and imports need to work.

否则用户会抱怨'这个用不了'、'那个存着我所有个人数据'、'我不想重新登录所有应用'。这对我们的用户引导流程至关重要——不仅是引导用户，也是在引导AI。

Otherwise like you're going to be like, oh, this is not working. Oh, that thing has all my personal context. I'm missing out on it. I don't want to go through the friction of logging into all the apps again. I think that that was very important for us, for the onboarding step, which is not only onboarding you as a human, but also onboarding the AI.

当你以与Chrome完全相同的安全标准登录所有第三方应用时，智能体就能在客户端获取这些信息，立即向你展示产品的魔法效果。

Because the moment you're already logged into all the third party apps that you are logged in on Chrome in the exact same security standards, the agent gets access to that on your client and can immediately show you the magic of the product.

所以智能体能看到这些数据，但Perplexity公司看不到？你们不会用我从Chrome同步过来的数据训练模型？

And the agent is seeing it, but you perplexity are not. You're not using all of the Chrome data I instantly bring over to train on me or anything like that?

不会。智能体仅在相关提问时访问数据。例如'根据我上月在亚马逊的订单推荐新补剂'或'去订购我常买的镁片'，它只会为当前查询访问数据，不会在服务器存储完整购物记录。你也可以随时要求删除查询记录。

No. The agent only sees it when you ask a prompt relevant. For example, based on what I've ordered on Amazon in the last month, recommend me some new supplements or like go and order the magnesium supplement that I've already ordered frequently on Amazon. The agent only sees that for that one singular prompt and doesn't actually store your entire Amazon history on our servers. And you can always like ensure that like your prompts get deleted from our servers.

即便是用于模型优化的聚合分析——比如发现用户常做亚马逊购物查询后改进相关功能——如果你选择不保留查询记录，我们也不会查看具体内容。这就是我们要提供的隐私安全级别。

So even the prompts we can choose not to look at, even for like, you know, let's say fine tuning purposes. Let's say we wanna like make our agents good for like at an aggregate, oh, like users have done Amazon shopping queries. Let's go and like make it better on that. We don't even need to look at that if you choose to like not retain your prompt. So that's the level of privacy and security we wanna offer.

同时，前沿AI能力都在服务端。这也是苹果难以在iOS/macOS部署Apple Intelligence的主因——人们总认为隐私功能必须完全在客户端实现，其实服务端前沿AI同样能保障安全隐私。

At the same time, the frontier intelligence is all in the server side. Like, this is one of the main reasons why Apple is struggling to ship all like Apple intelligence, be it on iOS or macOS or whatever. Right? Because I think there's generally like an expectation that everything needs to live on the client side. That's not necessary to be private.

我们在Comet中采用的就是这种架构。

You can still be pretty secure and private with Frontier Intelligence on the server. So that's the architecture we brought in on Comet.

我们现在聊的是Comet发布几周后的情况，它目前仍是邀请制，或者我认为还仅限于每月200美元的高级用户层级。但你一直在推特上分享很多用户使用案例——他们用它制作Facebook广告、处理FedEx客服聊天、管理智能家居配件、发布Facebook市场列表、安排日历会议。你展示了很多应用场景，我很好奇

We're talking now a couple of weeks or so after Comet came out and it's still invite only or I think it's also restricted to your your premium tier, your 200 a month tier. But you've been tweeting a lot of examples of how people have been using it. They've been using it to make Facebook ads, do FedEx customer support chat, run their smart home accessories, make Facebook marketplace listings, schedule calendar meetings. There's been a lot of stuff that you've shown. I'm curious

比如退订垃圾邮件，这是许多人最爱的功能。没错。

what Unsubscribe unsubscribing from spam emails, which is a favorite use case of a lot of people. Yeah.

或许这是最受欢迎的。不过我想问，目前你观察到人们使用Comet最主要的核心场景是什么？

So maybe that's the one. But I was gonna say, what has been the the main use case you've seen so far that people are finding with Comet?

实际上，虽然那些花哨的用例很吸引人，但我觉得最常见的是在网页上调用侧边栏助手完成操作。不仅是简单摘要，比如我正在看Alex Hill采访扎克伯格的播客时，想精确了解他对某个话题的论述，并直接摘取内容发送到Slack团队群。这种即时调用侧边助手的功能——它能连接你的Gmail和日历——才是真正改变游戏规则的。

Actually, while these are the more glamorous use cases, I would say the boring dominant one is always like invoking the sidecar and having it do stuff for you on the web page you're on. Not necessarily just simple summarization, but more complex questions like you're on a let's say I'm watching Alex Hill's podcast with Zuckerberg or something, and I wanna know specifically what he said about a topic. And I wanna take that and send it as a message to my teammates on Slack. I I think that like like that's the thing you can just invoke the assistant on the side and do it instantly. It's connected to your Gmail, your calendar.

它还能提取YouTube视频字幕，拥有细粒度访问权限。不仅能立即检索相关片段，我甚至可以要求它从精确时间点开始播放，省去手动翻找整个字幕的麻烦。这种程度的控制权带来的优势是颠覆性的。

It's also like able to pull the transcript from the YouTube video. It has fine grain access. It's not and it's immediately able to retrieve the relevant snippet. I can even ask it to play it from that exact time step instead of like going through the entire transcript and like like, know, control a thing like whatever I want. That is the level of advantage you have.

简直让人觉得，除非时间充裕，否则根本不需要完整观看YouTube视频了。LinkedIn也是同理——说实话他们的搜索引擎基本瘫痪。但助手能通过筛选人脉搜索等捷径，提供前所未有的招聘效率，这比LinkedIn高级会员好用多了。

Like, it it almost feels like you should never watch a YouTube video standalone anymore unless you have a lot of time on your hands. And it's fantastic. Right? And and people use it for LinkedIn. Like, honestly, searching over LinkedIn is very hard.

我敢说这比直接使用LinkedIn高级版更强大。

They don't have a working search engine basically. So the agent figures out all these shortcuts like how we figure out using these filters, people search, a connection search, and it's able to give recruiting power that was never possible before. I I would say it's better than using LinkedIn premium.

确实。你提到侧边栏很重要——对于没体验过的人来说，这正是Comet与Chrome的本质区别：这个AI助手协调层悬浮在网页侧边，既能交互当前页面又能独立执行任务。这种设计是否意味着你认为网页浏览本身正在失去意义？毕竟你刚说没人有时间看完整视频了。

Yeah. And I'm glad you brought up the sidebar because for people who haven't tried it or seen it, that is the main way Comet diverts from Chrome is that you've got this AI assistant orchestration layer that sits on the side of a web page that you can use to interact with the web page and also just go off and do things. That interface suggests that you see the web as being less about actually browsing. I mean, you just said no one really has time to watch a YouTube video. Is the browsing part of the browser becoming less meaningful in the world of AI?

我认为娱乐性观看仍会存在，但像我这样带着明确目的打开视频时——比如你们做的知识性内容——往往不需要全程观看。工作时我肯定没空看完整期The Verge播客，但又不想等到周末。我需要立即知道扎克伯格关于服务器集群的论述，周末再补看完整版。

I think people are still gonna watch YouTube videos for fun or exploration, but not when when I'm actually like landing at a video, like, I mean, you do a lot of intellectual stuff, so it's not it's not always fun to watch the entire thing, but I I like watching specific things in a video. And also, by the way, like when I'm in the middle of work, I can't be watching the verge podcast. Right? But I still don't wanna wait till the entire weekend to fully watch it. I wanna instantly know like what Zuckerberg might have said in your video about like their cluster or something.

实际上AI分担工作后，人们可能会有更多时间刷社交平台或看Netflix。浏览行为不会消失，反而可能因为时间更充裕而增加——毕竟AI已经帮他们处理了大量事务。

And then like, you know, in the weekend I can go back and watch the entire thing. Like, you know, I'm I'm gonna have a lot more time on my hands. So it's not actually gonna like stop the regular browsing. I actually think people are gonna, like, scroll through social platforms or, like, watch Netflix or YouTube even more, I would say, because they have more time on their hands. The AI is gonna do a lot of their work.

只是他们会更倾向于将时间花在娱乐而非智力活动上，比如进行一些智力性浏览。如果人们能从智力性内容中获得娱乐，比如智力性娱乐，我觉得这也挺好。像是阅读书籍，这些都没问题。或者读些平时工作中抽不出时间看的博客文章。

It's just that they would they would choose to spend it on entertainment more than like intellectual work. It's intellectual browsing. Or if people derive entertainment from intellectual stuff like intellectual entertainment, I think that's fine too. Like reading books, all these things are fine. Like reading blog posts that you otherwise wouldn't get time to read when you're in the middle of work.

我认为这正是我们希望浏览器发展的方向——人们可以启动一系列Comet助手任务，这些后台任务可能只需几分钟完成，而他们则可以悠闲地刷刷X（推特）或其他喜欢的社交平台。

I think these are the kind of ways in which we want the browser to evolve where people launch a bunch of Comet assistant jobs like like tasks that would take, like, a few minutes to complete on the background, and they're, like, chilling and, like, scrolling through x or, you know, whatever other social they like.

我们需要短暂休息一下，马上回来。

We need to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

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Support for this show comes from Adio. Adio is an AI native customer relationship management system built specifically for the next era of companies. It's extremely powerful, adapts to your unique data structures, and scales with any business model. They say setting up Adio takes less than a minute, and in seconds of syncing your emails and calendar, you'll see all your relationships in a fully fledged platform, all enriched with actionable data. Adio can enrich your business with real time, customizable reports featuring valuable points.

最棒的是，您可以构建AI驱动的自动化流程，并利用其研究代理处理最复杂的业务流程，从而专注于最重要的事：建设公司。加入Flat File、Replicate、Modal等行业领导者的行列，访问addio.com/decoder可享首年15%优惠。网址：atti0.com/decoder。本节目亦由Framer赞助。

The best part is you can build AI powered automations and use its research agent to tackle some of your most complex processes, so you can focus on what matters most: building your company. Join leaders like Flat File, Replicate, Modal, and more. You can go to addio.com/decoder, and you'll get 15% off your first year. That's atti0.com/decoder. Support for this show comes from Framer.

有企业就需要有网站。但如果网站糟糕，很多人会对您的企业产生同样印象。通过Framer，您可以确保网站展现专业水准。无论您对传统建站工具望而生畏，还是对模板设计感到沮丧，Framer都能让您自由创建专业、精致且独具特色的网站。这款设计优先的无代码建站工具，能让任何人在几分钟内发布生产级网站。

If you have a business, then you have a website. But if you have a bad website, a lot of people will think the same about your business. But you can make sure your website shows how professional you are with the help of Framer. Whether you're overwhelmed by traditional site builders or frustrated with cookie cutter designs, Framer gives you the freedom to create a site that's professional, polished, and uniquely yours. Framer is the design first, no code website builder that lets anyone ship a production ready site in minutes.

可免费开始使用。浏览700多个像素级完美模板，或从完全空白画布起步。实时协作功能让文案、设计师和营销人员能同时修改同一页面，无需担心版本混乱。内置AI还能通过生成初始布局、自动全站翻译，甚至推荐符合品牌调性的配色方案来减轻工作负担。

It's free to start. You can browse 700 plus pixel perfect templates or design from a totally blank canvas. Real time collaboration means your writer, designer, and marketer can all tweak the same page at once. No version control nightmares. Plus, their built in AI handles the heavy lifting by generating starter layouts, auto translating your entire site to any language, and can even suggest on brand color palettes.

若想打造手工编码级网站又不想雇佣开发者，立即免费开始使用framer.com。前往framer.com免费建站。framer.com。本节目由OpenPhone赞助。现代企业需要现代电话系统。

If you're ready to build a site that looks hand coded without hiring a developer, start free today at framer.com. Go to framer.com to start building a site for free. Framer.com. Support for this show comes from OpenPhone. Modern businesses need a modern phone system.

OpenPhone是能简化和扩展客户通讯的商业电话系统。通过手机或电脑应用即可使用，无需携带两部手机或固话。您的团队可共享一个号码，协作处理客户来电和短信，任何成员都能无缝接替上一位同事的工作。其AI代理几分钟即可设置完成，用于处理非工作时间来电、解答问题并捕获潜在客户，确保您永不遗漏商机。

OpenPhone is a business phone system that streamlines and scales your customer communications. It works through an app on your phone or computer, so no more carrying two phones or using a landline. With OpenPhone, your team can share one number and collaborate on customer calls and texts. That way, any teammate can pick up right where the last person left off. And their AI agent can be set up in minutes to handle calls after hours, answer questions, and capture leads so you never miss a customer.

亲眼见证为何超过60,000家企业信赖OpenPhone。访问openphone.com/decoder，我们的听众可享前六个月20%优惠。网址：0penph0ne.com/decoder。若您已有其他服务商的号码，OpenPhone将免费为您转移。OpenPhone。

See for yourself why over 60,000 businesses trust OpenPhone. OpenPhone is offering our listeners 20% off their first six months at openphone.com/decoder. That's 0penph0ne.com/decoder. And if you have existing numbers with another service, OpenPhone will port them over at no extra charge. OpenPhone.

没有未接来电。没有错失的客户。

No missed calls. No missed customers.

我们再次请到Perplexity CEO阿拉文德·斯里尼瓦斯。你们为Comet设计的口号是让人们能够'以思维速度浏览'。但我发现要真正理解它的功能其实存在很高的学习门槛。

We're back with Perplexity CEO, Aravind Srinivas. Your tagline for Comet is enabling people to, quote, browse at the speed of thought. I find that there's actually a very steep learning curve to understanding what it can do.

顺便说下，亚历克斯，我想强调一点。之前有篇来自《连线》或其他媒体的文章提到，谷歌正尝试用Gemini预测YouTube视频的最大参与时段，并在该时间戳展示广告。

By the way, Alex, I I wanna make I wanna make one point. There was some article either from Words or somewhere else that Google was trying to use Gemini to predict maximal engagement time on a YouTube video and show the ad around that timestamp.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而Perplexity在普通浏览器上使用AI恰恰是为了节省您的时间，精确获取您想要的细粒度时间戳，而不是浪费您的时间。明白吗？人们常问为什么谷歌不做这些，根本原因是两者的激励机制完全不同。

Perplexity on on the common browser, I mean, was using AI to exactly save your time, to get you the exact timestamp you want in a fine grained basis and not waste your time. You know? So often people will ask, like, why would Google not do this and that? The incentives are completely different here.

确实。我想深入探讨这点，关于Comet我有很多商业模式问题，因为它对你们来说计算密集且运营成本高昂——这也是你提到过的。但回到学习曲线和易用性话题，你们如何解决？因为我初次打开时完全不知道能做什么。虽然我去你们推特账号能看到各种功能演示。

Yeah. And I wanna get into that, and I have a lot of business model questions about Comet because it is also very compute intensive for you and expensive to run, which you've talked about. But to my point about the learning curve and making it approachable, how do you do that? Because when I first opened it, it's kind of like I I don't know what I can do with this thing. I mean, I go to your ex account and I see all the things you're sharing.

但我确实认为产品构建者往往低估了用户需要克服的学习曲线。

But I do think there's going to be a learning curve that the people building these products don't necessarily appreciate.

不，我非常理解这点。作为用户我自己也深有体会：尽管构建各种智能代理用例很有趣，但要改变原有习惯开始多用AI需要过程——就连邮件回复这种基础功能都是如此。虽然谷歌有自动建议回复，但我通常不喜欢，而且它不会引用Gmail外的上下文来辅助。

No. No. I I I appreciate that and it's been the thing for me myself as a user is that like even though it's fun to build all these agent use cases, it takes a while to stop doing things the usual way and start using the AIs more, which includes even basic things like what reply you type onto an email thread. Even though Google has these automatic suggested replies, I I I don't actually usually like it. And it doesn't often pull context from outside Gmail to like help me do that.

或是查看Slack未读消息时，我总习惯直接开标签页，在加入的50-100个频道里逐个点击阅读。要训练自己使用Comet确实需要时间。所以我们计划发布大量早期用例作为教学资料广泛传播。这就像聊天机器人当初的发展轨迹。

Or like Slack, checking on like unread Slack messages. I usually just go open Slack as a tab and try to like scroll through those, you know, 50 or 100 channels I'm on, clicking each of those channels, like reading all the messages that are unread. It takes time to actually train myself to use Comet. So what we plan to do is actually publish a lot of the early use cases on an educational material and have it be widely accessible. I think it's gonna go through the same trajectory that chatbots had.

就像ChatGPT刚推出时，肯定没多少人知道怎么用，也不清楚如何最大化利用它。事实上至今仍非普及状态——有些人精通AI工具，多数人每周只用一两次，并未融入日常工作流。浏览器工具也将经历类似发展过程。

Like I think the beginning when ChatGPT was launched, I'm sure like not a lot of people knew how to use it. What are all the ways in which you could take advantage of it? In fact, I still don't think people really, it's not really a widespread thing. There are some people who really know how to use these AI tools very well and most people have at least used it once or twice a week and they don't actually are like, they don't actually use it in their day to day workflows. The browser is going to go through a similar trajectory.

另一方面，有一个使用场景非常自然直观，甚至无需教导人们如何将其作为侧边栏使用。它的普及速度之快让我觉得它会变得如此直觉化，以至于没有侧边栏时，人们会质疑为何还要使用浏览器。这就是未来的使用感受。

On the other hand, the one use case that's been very natural, very intuitive that you don't even have to teach people how to use this as a sidecar. It's just picked up so much that I feel like it'll be so intuitive. It'll almost be like without the sidecar, why am I using the browser anymore? That that's how it's gonna feel.

当你在网页旁拥有这个侧边栏时，确实会迅速让传统的聊天机器人如Perplexity和ChatGPT界面显得有点过时。

It does quickly make the traditional chatbot perplexity ChatGPT interface feel a little arcane when you have the sidebar with the web page.

确实如此。很多人使用ChatGPT的场景是这样的：比如你正在写邮件，知道需要参考某些内容来回复。于是你复制粘贴一堆上下文，跳转到ChatGPT提问，得到答案后再粘贴回邮件。最终你会在Gmail里编辑，或者在Google Sheets或Google Docs中操作。

Exactly. A lot of people are using ChatGPT for like, you're on an email and you know what you wanna know how to respond. So you copy paste bunch of context. You go there, you ask it to do something and then you copy paste it back. You edit it finally in your Gmail box or you do it in your Google Sheets or Google Docs.

所有这些操作都将变得更加直观。侧边栏直接显示在旁边，你可以直接编辑内容。无论是起草推文，还是像埃隆·马斯克发了什么内容你想回复个有趣评论——你可以直接让Comet帮你生成幽默的回复推文，它会自动准备好内容，你只需点击发布按钮。这些功能将显著减少你频繁切换标签页向AI提问的次数。

All this is gonna like like the comment is just gonna feel much more intuitive. You have it right there on the side and you can you can do your edits or you're using it to draft a tweet or like, you know, Elon Musk post something and you wanna like post a funny response to that. You can literally ask Comet, hey, like, draft me a funny reply tweet to that and it'll automatically have it ready for you. You literally have to click the post button. That all that stuff is gonna definitely reduce the amount of times you literally open another tab and like like keep asking the AI.

直接从当前网站启动任务，获取相关上下文后返回结果，并通过推送通知提醒你——这种委托体验将提升到全新层级。

And firing up jobs right from your current website to go pull up relevant context for you and then having it just like come back and push notify you when it's ready, that's that's feeling like another level of delegation.

根据你看到的早期数据，Comet目前在哪些方面存在不足？

Where is Comet struggling based on the early data you've seen?

目前对长周期任务确实还不完善。比如需要15分钟完成的任务——举个例子：'我要一份斯坦福毕业且曾在Anthropic工作过的工程师名单（不要求现职），请穷尽所有符合条件的人，转移到Google Sheets并附上LinkedIn链接，再通过ZoomInfo获取他们的邮箱以便联系'。

Definitely not perfect yet for long horizon tasks, like something that that might take fifteen minutes or something like I'll give you some examples. Like, go I want a list of engineers who have studied at Stanford and who also worked at Anthropic. And they don't have to be currently working on Anthropic, but they must have worked at Anthropic at least once. I want you to like give me an exhaustive list of people like that, port it over to Google sheets with their LinkedIn URLs. And I want you to go to Zoom info and like try to get get me their email so that I can reach out to them.

还要求'批量起草给每个人的个性化冷邮件，邀请咖啡会谈'。目前它还不能完全做到，只能完成部分环节，仍需人工协调串联。但我确信6个月到1年内就能实现端到端处理。

I also want you to bulk draft a personalized cold email to each of them to reach out to for a coffee chat. I don't think it can do this today. It can do parts of it. So you still have to be the orchestrator stitching to them, stitching them together. I'm pretty sure six months to a year from now, it can do the entire thing.

我押注于推理模型的进步。就像2022年我们赌GPT-4和Claude 3.5 Sonnet能解决幻觉问题那样——在优质索引和模型配合下，这个问题已基本不存在。我相信在浏览器这个能访问所有标签页和工具的环境中，只需推理模型稍作改进（可能是GPT-5或Claude 4.5），就能突破临界点，让这些功能突然成为可能。届时招聘人员一周的工作量，可能只需一个提示词就能搞定。

I'm betting on progress and reasoning models to get us there. Just like how in 2022, we bet on models like GPT-four and Clog 3.5 SONNET to arrive, to make the hallucination problem perplexity basically non existent when you have a good index and a good model. I'm betting on the fact that in the right environment of a browser with access to all these tabs and tools, a sufficiently good reasoning model, like slightly better, maybe GPT-five, maybe like Cloud 4.5, I don't know. Could get us right over the edge where all these things are like suddenly possible. And then like a recruiters work worth one week is just like one prompt, right?

人才搜寻与触达之后还需要状态追踪：不只是执行单次任务，更要持续跟进回复状态。如果有人回应，就要更新Google Sheets标记状态为'已回复'或'跟进中'，与我的Google日历同步解决时间冲突安排会谈，并在会前推送摘要简报——这些环节都应该实现主动化。

Sourcing and reach outs. And then you got to do state tracking. Okay, it's not just about doing this one task, but you wanted to keep following up, keep a track of their responses. If maybe some people respond, go and update the Google sheets, mark the status as like responded or like in progress and like follow-up with those candidates sync with my Google calendar and then resolve conflicts and schedule a chat and then push me a brief ahead of the meeting. Some of these things should be proactive.

甚至不需要提示词。这正是我们怀有的雄心——将浏览器打造成更接近操作系统的体验，让这些功能像持续运行的进程一样。虽然现阶段要实现这一切并不容易，但总体而言，我们已成功找准了那些处于可用性临界点的功能甜区。我们会先攻克这些用例，赢得早期用户的喜爱，然后乘着推理模型发展的浪潮前进——这一直是我们的策略。

It doesn't even have to be a prompt. That's the extent to which we have an ambition to make the browser into like something that feels more like an OS, where these are processes that are like running all the time. It's not going to be easy to do all this today, but in general, we have been successful at identifying the sweet spots where things that are currently on the edge of working and we nail those use cases, get early adopters to love the product and then ride the wave of progress and reasoning models. That's been the strategy.

我不确定这是推理模型本身的问题，还是产品早期阶段的局限，亦或是我还没掌握正确使用方法。就我的体验而言...

And I'm not sure if it's just the reasoning models or it's just the products early or I haven't figured out how to use it correctly. My experience

我的意思并非新模型能开箱即用地解决所有问题。是的，你必须真正懂得如何驾驭这些能力——比如建立正确的评估体系、对提示词进行版本控制、对辅助模型进行后期训练等等。这些恰恰是我们的专业强项，我们非常擅长此类工作。

It's not it's not like I'm saying everything will work out of the box with a new model. Yeah. You you really have to know how to harness the capabilities and, know, like have the right evals and like version control the prompts and like do any post training of auxiliary models, which which is basically our our expertise. Like, are very good at these things.

需要说明的是我使用时间还不满几周，但根据初期体验，我认为它在成功率方面略显脆弱且不稳定。比如我让它为我预订某个特定航班，它确实带我跳转到了预订页面并自动填写了部分信息——相比Perplexity或ChatGPT仅能打开网页的常规操作，它确实更进一步（虽未完成预订）。

I would say that based on and I'll caveat that I haven't spent, you know, weeks yet with it, but based on my early experience with it, I would describe it as a little brittle or unpredictable in terms of the success rate. I asked it to book a very or take me to the booking page for a very specific flight that I wanted and it did it. And it took me to the to the page where and it filled in some stuff whereas, you know, the normal Perplexity or ChatGPT interface would just take me to the web page. It actually took me a little bit further. It didn't book it but it took me further.

但当我要求列出X平台上所有在Meta工作的关注者时，它只给出一个人（实际远不止此）。又比如查找我最近与Perplexity CEO的访谈，它声称找不到却同时显示了访谈来源链接——回答与来源自相矛盾。我观察到产品存在这种脆弱性，当然知道尚处早期阶段，但想知道这些是纯技术故障，还是模型架构本身的固有特性？

But then I asked it like create a list of everyone who follows me on x that works at Meta and it gave me one person and I know for a fact there's many more than that. Or for example, I said find my last interview with the CEO of Perplexity and it said it couldn't but then it showed a source link to the interview. So the the answer said it couldn't but the source didn't. I see some brittleness in the product and I know it's early, but I'm just wondering like, is is all of that just bugs or is that anything inherent in the models or the way you've architected it?

如果你愿意分享链接我可以具体查看。但必须说明，我们宣传的用例绝大多数都应正常工作。是否每次都能100%确定性实现？不。我们能否在数月内达到这个目标？

I can take a look at it if you you can share the link with me. But I would say majority of the advertised use cases that we ourselves advertise are things that are expected to work. Now, will it always like a 100% of the time work in a deterministic way? No. Are we gonna get there in like a matter of months?

我认为可以。关键在于把握时机——不能等到所有功能都完全稳定才行动，需要保持适度超前。有些用户就享受参与产品演进的过程，当然更多人会等待完全稳定的版本。

I think so. You you kinda have to be timing yourself where you're not exactly waiting for the moment where everything works reliably. You wanna be a little early, you wanna be a little edgy. I think there are some people who would just love feeling the being part of the ride to, like, you know. There may be some there are more majority of the users are gonna wait until everything works stable.

因此我们认为侧边栏功能对这些用户已是增值服务：他们不必频繁使用智能体，但可以通过侧边栏使用Gmail、日历联动、LinkedIn搜索、YouTube，或是检索个人历史记录等基础功能——这些现有功能已远超Chrome的体验。

So that's why we think the sidecar is already a value add for those kind of people. Where okay, they don't have to use the agents that much. They can use the sidecar, they can use Gmail, they can use calendar connectors, they can use like all those LinkedIn search features, YouTube, or just basic stuff like searching over your own history. These are things that already work well. And this is already a massive value add over Chrome.

当耗时数分钟的长期任务能稳定运行时，它就不再只是浏览器了。那时你会感觉整个电脑只需这个'容器'——其他部分都变得无关紧要。

And once they like like several minutes worth long horizon tasks start working reliably, that's gonna make it feel more than just a browser. That that's when you'll make it make it feel like an OS. Like, you'll want everything in that one container and you'll feel like the rest of the computer doesn't even matter.

我们开场谈到你认为浏览器上下文能孕育真正可用的智能体，而业界当前关注的另一技术路径是MCP（模型上下文协议）。简言之，这个协调层让LLM能操作Airtable、Google Docs等工具，就像Comet在侧边栏实现的功能。你们通过浏览器登录态这个捷径解决问题，而Anthropic、OpenAI等公司则认为MCP才是规模化构建智能体的正道。你如何看待这两种路径？是对MCP持悲观态度，还是认为它更适合其他类型的企业？

We started this conversation talking about how you think the browser gives you this context to be able to create an actually useful agent and there's this other technical path that the industry is looking at and getting excited about which is MCP, model context protocol. And at a high level, it's just this orchestration layer that lets an LLM talk to Airtable, Google Docs, whatever, and do things on your behalf in the same way that Comet is doing that in the sidebar. You're going at this problem through the browser and through the logged in state of the browser that you talked about and that shortcut. While a lot of people, Anthropic and others, OpenAI are looking at MCP as maybe the way that agents actually get built at scale. I'm curious what you think of those two paths and are you just very bearish on MCP or do you think MCP is for other kinds of companies?

我对MCP并非极度悲观。我只是希望它更成熟些，而我不想等待。我现在就想部署智能体。感觉整个AI社区和行业过去两年一直在讨论智能体，却没人真正推出过可行的产品。确实如此。

I'm not like extremely bearish on MCP. I just want it to mature more and I don't want to wait. I want to ship agents right now. I feel like AI as a community, as an industry has just been talking about agents for like last two years and no one has actually shipped anything that worked. Yeah.

我已经厌倦了这种状态。我们认为浏览器是目前实现目标的理想途径。未来五年内，MCP肯定会在智能体领域发挥重要作用。但他们仍需解决许多安全问题——比如认证令牌从客户端传到MCP服务器，或远程MCP服务器间互传，这些操作现在风险都很高，远比浏览器客户端保持持久登录危险得多。

And I got tired of that and like we felt like the browser is a great way to do that today. MCP is gonna definitely play a contributing factor to agents like in to the field like in the next five years. There's still a lot of security issues they need to figure out there. Having your authentication tokens communicated from your client to an MCP server or from remote MCP server to another client, all these things are pretty risky today. Way more risky than just having your persistent logins on your client on the browser.

Operator工具也存在同样问题，它试图创建所有应用的服务器端版本。

Same issues exist with the operator which tried to create like server side versions of all your apps.

这是OpenAI的计算机工具Operator。

This is OpenAI's computer use tool operator.

没错。我认为会有优秀的MCP连接器出现，我们肯定会整合Linear或Notion这类平台。GitHub应该就有MCP连接器。只要比直接开标签页滚动点击的智能体更合理，我们就会采用。

Yeah. Exactly. I think there's gonna be some good MCP connectors that we'll definitely like integrate with like Linear or Notion. I guess GitHub has an MCP connector. So whenever it makes sense to use those over an agent that just opens these tabs and scrolls through them and clicks on things, we're gonna use that.

但这始终受限于服务器维护水平，以及如何协调智能体正确使用协议。顺便说，它解决不了服务器上的搜索问题——你仍需要确定检索哪些数据。有人称它为编排层，其实不是，它只是服务器与客户端间的通信协议。

But it's always gonna be bottlenecked by how well these servers are maintained and how you kind of like orchestrate these agents to use the protocol in the right way. It doesn't solve the search problem on those servers by the way. You still have to like go and figure out like what data to retrieve. You define it as the orchestration layer. It's not the orchestration layer, it's just a protocol for communicating between servers and the client.

或者服务器间的通信协议。但它依然没解决推理问题——比如知道提取什么信息、采取什么行动、串联不同步骤、失败时重试等。而浏览器本质是为人类操作设计的，DOM提取和行动决策恰恰是当前推理模型擅长的领域。所以我们会采取混合方案择优而行——最终必须快速、可靠且低成本。

But or or one server and another server. But it's it's still not solving the problem of like the reasoning and what, you know, what knowing what what information to extract and knowing what actions to take and like all that chaining together different steps, trying things when things don't work. Whereas the browsers like basically something that's been designed for humans to actually operate in and extracting the DOM and knowing what actions to take are seems to be something that these models, the reasoning models seem to be pretty good at. So we're gonna do a hybrid approach and see what works best. At the end, it has to be fast, it has to be reliable and it has to be cheap.

如果MCP比浏览智能体表现更好，我们就会转向。明白吗？这里没有教条主义。

So if MCP lets us do that better than the browsing agent, then we'll do that. Right? Like there's no dogmatic vision here.

在The Verge，我们非常重视网站视觉呈现和艺术体验。随着智能体技术融入浏览器，我想知道：那些精心设计趣味浏览体验的网站会怎样？网络会变成智能体通过MCP爬取的数据库集合吗？整个网页经济会消失吗？

At The Verge, we care a lot about the way our website looks and feels, the art of it, the visual experience. And with all this agent talk and it collapsing into browsers, I'm curious what you think happens to the web and to websites that devote a lot to making their sites actually interesting to browse. Does the web just become a series of databases that agents are crawling through MCP or whatever and this entire economy of the web goes away?

不会。我认为有品牌的机构，人们总会关注其观点。可能关注机构本身，也可能关注具体创作者，或两者兼有。就像在媒体平台，我可能不关心某些作者的文章，但会追随特定内容创作者。

No. I actually think like if you have a brand, people are gonna be interested in knowing what that brand thinks. And it might go to you, the individual, or it might go to words or it might go to both, doesn't matter, right? So even within words, I might not be interested in articles written by some other people. I might be interested in specific people who have like their content or something.

因此我认为，在一个人工智能和人类都在网上冲浪的世界里，品牌将扮演更重要的角色。所以我不认为它会消失。也许你的流量甚至不会自然增长，而是通过社交媒体获得。比如你发布了一篇新文章，有些人可能会通过Instagram、X或LinkedIn点击阅读，这无关紧要，对吧？至于一个新平台能否仅凭那些老旧的SEO技巧从零开始建立流量，我对此实际上持悲观态度。

So I think the brand will play an even bigger role in a world where like both AIs and humans are surfing the web. And so I don't think it's gonna go away. Maybe the traffic for you might not even come organically, it might come through social media. Like let's say you publish a new article, some people might come click on it through Instagram or X or LinkedIn, doesn't matter, right? And whether it'll be possible for a new platform to build traffic from scratch by just doing the good old SEO tricks, I'm actually bearish on that.

按照旧有的玩法来建立自己的存在感将会很困难。在这个时代，你必须通过不同的方式来打造品牌。而那些幸运地已经拥有强大品牌影响力的现有者，他们也需要用不同的策略来维护品牌，而不仅仅是做SEO或传统的搜索引擎增长战术。

It's gonna be difficult to create your own presence by displaying the old playbook. You gotta build your brand through a different manner in this time period. And the existing ones who are lucky enough to already have a big brand presence, they have to maintain the brand also with a different playbook, not just doing SEO or, like, traditional, like, search engine growth tactics.

我们需要再短暂休息一下，马上回来。

We need to take another quick break. We'll be right back.

人工智能发展迅猛，快得让人难以跟上。事实上，在ServiceNow最新的AI成熟度指数中，得分比去年下降了20%。但这没关系，因为AI不是短跑，而是一场马拉松。

AI is moving fast. So fast, it's hard to keep up. In fact, in ServiceNow's latest AI maturity index, scores dipped 20% from last year. But that's okay because AI isn't a sprint. It's a marathon.

也许你今天落后了，但明天你可能成为领跑者。深入了解ServiceNow的AI成熟度指数，看看如何让你的创新速度与雄心相匹配。请访问servicenow.com斜杠

You may be behind today, but tomorrow, you could be a pace setter. Dive into ServiceNow's AI maturity index and see how you can innovate as fast as your ambitions. Visit servicenow.com slash

本节目由Robinhood赞助。在一个平台上管理你的投资组合岂不是很棒？通过Robinhood，你不仅可以交易个股和ETF，还能以低成本无缝买卖加密货币。一站式交易，现在就在Robinhood开始吧！

support for this show comes from Robinhood. Wouldn't it be great to manage your portfolio on one platform? With Robinhood, not only can you trade individual stocks and ETFs, you can also seamlessly buy and sell crypto at low costs. Trade all in one place. Get started now on Robinhood!

加密货币交易涉及重大风险。加密货币交易通过Robinhood Crypto LLC的账户提供。Robinhood Crypto获得纽约州金融服务部许可从事虚拟货币业务活动。通过Robinhood Crypto持有的加密货币不受FDIC保险或CIPIC保护。投资有风险，包括本金损失。

Trading crypto involves significant risk. Crypto trading is offered through an account with Robinhood Crypto LLC. Robinhood Crypto is licensed to engage in virtual currency business activity by the New York State Department of Financial Services. Crypto held through Robinhood Crypto is not FDIC insured or CIPIC protected. Investing involves risk, including loss of principal.

证券交易通过Robinhood Financial LLC的账户提供，该公司是注册经纪交易商。

Securities trading is offered through an account with Robinhood Financial LLC a registered broker dealer.

本月在《Explain It To Me》节目中，我们将探讨所有关于健康的话题。我们每年花费近2万亿美元购买那些据说能让我们更健康的东西——胶原蛋白奶昔、冷水浴、普拉提课程和健身追踪器。但真正的健康意味着什么？为什么我们如此渴望它？这些钱真的让我们更健康、更快乐了吗？

This month on Explain It To Me, we're talking about all things wellness. We spend nearly $2,000,000,000,000 on things that are supposed to make us well, collagen smoothies and cold plunges, pilates classes, and fitness trackers. But what does it actually mean to be well? Why do we want that so badly? And is all this money really making us healthier and happier?

这就是本月由Pure Leaf呈现的《Explain It To Me》节目内容。

That's this month on Explain It To Me, presented by Pure Leaf.

我们回来了。关于Comet作为一项业务，它非常消耗计算资源且仍处于邀请制阶段。我猜你肯定希望能直接开放注册，但这会让服务器不堪重负或AWS账单爆炸，对吧？那么你们如何实现规模化？

We're back. On Comet as a business, it's very compute intensive and it's still invite only. I imagine you wish you could just throw the gates open and let anyone use it but it would melt your servers or your AWS bills. Right? So how do you scale this thing?

规模化不仅涉及产品层面——要让普通用户能轻松理解使用，克服我们之前讨论的学习曲线——还包括商业层面。你们尚未盈利，依赖风投资金，终有一天需要赚钱实现盈利。这种比聊天机器人更耗算力的业务该如何规模化？

Not only do you scale it from the product sense and it becoming a thing that normal people can easily use and understand that that curve of learning it that we talked about but also just the business of it. You're not profitable, you're venture backed, you have to make money one day, you have to be profitable. How do you scale something like this that is actually even more compute intensive than a chatbot?

我认为只要这些智能体的可靠性足够高，完全可以采用按使用量收费的模式。用户可能不会购买每月200美元的高端订阅，但遇到紧急任务时——比如我提到的招聘需求'找出所有在Anthropic工作过的斯坦福校友'——如果智能体完成质量达标，人们会很乐意预付20美元。这比花三小时手动处理，或是雇佣专职招聘顾问划算得多。

I think if the reliability of these agents gets good enough, you could imagine people paying usage based pricing. You might not be part of the max subscription tier of like $200 a month or anything, but there's like one task you really desperately want to get done. And you don't want to spend like three hours doing that. As long as the agent actually completes and you're like satisfied with the response rate, the success rate, you'll be okay with trusting the agent to like paying an advanced fee of like $20 and for like, you know, for the recruiting task I described, like give me all the Stanford alumni who worked at Anthropic. I think that is a very interesting way of thinking about it, which is otherwise gonna cost you a lot more time or you have to like hire like a sourcing consultant or you have to hire a full time sourcer whose only job is that if you value your time, you're going to pay for it.

再举个例子：假设你想在Meta平台投广告，需要分析竞品广告、研究100个关键词的AdWords定价来制定竞争策略。这类任务用AI处理不仅能节省数十小时，还可能发现人工难以察觉的套利机会。如果它能帮你赚几百万美元，花2000美元购买这个服务难道不合理吗？

Or maybe like, let me give you another example. Like you want to put an ad on meta, right? Instagram, and you kind of want to like, look at ads done by similar brands, pull that, study that, or like look at the AdWords pricing of like, you know, a 100 different keywords and figure out how to price your thing competitively. Like these are tasks that could definitely save you the hours and hours and maybe even give you an arbitrage over what you could do yourself because AI is able to do a lot more. At scale, if it helps you to make a few million bucks, does it not make sense to spend like $2,000 for that prompt?

当然合理。相比浏览器聊天机器人，我们将探索更有趣的盈利模式。虽然现在为时尚早，但用户使用场景已显现端倪。当你把批量认知工作交给可靠执行的AI时，它就像能用自然语言描述任务的个人AWS集群。我们必须把这个愿景实现出来。

It does, right? I think we're gonna be able to monetize in many more interesting ways than chatbots for the browser. It's still early, but it's the the the signs of life are already there in terms of what kind of use cases people have. And if you map reduce your in it like like cognitive labor in bulk to an AI that goes and does it reliably, it almost becomes like your personal AWS cluster with natural language described tasks. And I think we have to execute on it.

如果我们成功执行且推理模型持续改进，最终产品会像'人生版Clock Code'。ClockCode这个月费千美元的产品之所以有人买单，正是因为即便昂贵，它能加速晋升——通过提升工作效率带来薪资增长，用户觉得投资回报率成立。

But if we do execute on it and if the reasoning models are continuing to work well, you could imagine something that feels more like Clock Code for life. And Clock Code is a product that people are paying thousand bucks a month also, because even though it's expensive, it helps you maybe get a promotion faster because you're getting more work done and your salary goes up and it feels like the ROI is there.

你们如此押注浏览器作为Perplexity的下一章，是否因为传统聊天机器人赛道已被ChatGPT垄断？现有Perplexity产品会逐渐消失，未来完全转向Comet吗？

Are you betting so much on the browser for the next chapter of Perplexity because the traditional chatbot race has just been completely won by ChatGPT? Like is is Perplexity as it exists today going away and the future of it is just Comet?

不能说因为聊天机器人竞赛结束才做这个选择，这是两回事。日常聊天领域确实格局已定，不太可能出现替代产品。但我们从一开始就没参与那个市场的竞争。

I wouldn't say that I'm betting on it because the ChatGPT the the chatbot race is over. Let me decouple the two things. The chat bot race does seem like it's over. In the sense that it's very unlikely that people think of another product for day to day chat. From the beginning, we never competed on that market.

我们始终聚焦搜索领域，试图用对话式重构搜索体验。没错，所有聊天机器人都集成了搜索功能，但有人喜欢这种形式，也有人偏好我们这种更接近传统搜索的界面。我们从未打算进军那个市场。

We were always competing on search. We were trying to reimagine search in the conversational style. Yes, every chatbot has search integrations. Some people like that, some people still like a more search like interface that we have. So we're not gonna we never wanted to go after that market and we're not competing there either.

谷歌在追赶，Grox在追赶，Meta也在追赶。但在我看来这些努力都是徒劳。浏览器比聊天更有想象空间——它用户粘性更强，是构建智能体和端到端工作流的唯一载体。

Google is trying to catch up and Grox trying to catch up, Meta is trying to catch up. But I I feel like all that is like a wasted labor in my opinion at this point. The way I would phrase it is the browser is bigger than chat. It's a more sticky product and it's the only way to build agents. It's the only way to build end to end workflows.

这是构建真正个性化记忆与上下文的唯一途径。因此在我看来，这比单纯攻克聊天功能更具价值，尤其是在如此碎片化的市场中。要解决这个难题更为复杂——无论是智力层面、功能封装、上下文工程设计、应对当前技术短板，还是处理终端用户体验（包括前端、后端、安全隐私等问题），当你面对浏览器这类多功能产品时，所有这些问题都会接踵而至。

It's the only way to build a true personalization memory and context. And so it's a bigger price in my opinion than trying to nail the chat game, especially in a market that's so fragment. It's a much harder problem to crack to both in terms of intelligence, how you package it, how you context engineer it, how you deal with all the shortcomings at the current moment, as well as like end user facing UX, which could be the front end, the back end, the security, privacy and all the other bugs that you get to deal with when working with a much more multifaceted product like the browser.

你认为这就是OpenAI准备发布浏览器的原因吗？因为他们认同这个观点？

Do you think that's why OpenAI is going to be releasing a browser? Because they agree with that?

我不确定他们是否如此。我和你们看到的是同样的泄露消息，这很有趣——消息在我们产品发布两小时后出现。但我想说，你提到Perplexity被忽视而Comet将成为下一个焦点，我并不这么认为。因为脱离搜索引擎就不可能构建浏览器。

I don't know if they are. I I I read the same leaks that you have and it was very interesting. It came two hours after we launched. But I would say, you you also made another point about perplexity being ignored and comment being the next thing. I don't I don't see it that way because you cannot build a browser without a search.

很多人称赞Comet浏览器不像传统浏览器，知道为什么吗？除了侧边栏和智能代理等功能，关键在于默认搜索引擎是Perplexity。我们设计了智能识别功能：当检测到导航意图时，它会提供四五个链接；遇到图片查询时能快速响应。

A lot of people praise the comment browser because it doesn't feel like another browser because you know why? One of the main reasons is of course we have the sidecar and we have the agent and all that, but the search default search is perplexity. And we made it in a way where even if you're having an intent to navigate it, it'll understand that. It'll give you like four or five links if it feels like it's a navigational query. It'll give you images pretty quickly.

它还能给出简明答案。通过单一搜索框就能整合信息查询、导航查询和代理查询——这只有深耕搜索领域才能实现，而我们已经专注于此两年半。所以我不认为这是两个独立事物，就像没有谷歌就不可能打造Chrome。

It'll give you like a very short answer also. So you can combine informational queries or navigational queries, agent queries in like one single search box. That is only doable if you actually are working on the search problem, which we've been working on since the last two and a half years, right? So I don't see it as two separate things. Basically you cannot build a product like Chrome without building Google.

同理，没有Perplexity就不可能构建Comet这样的产品。

Similarly, you cannot build a product like Comet without building Perplexity.

那么会有独立的Comet移动应用和Perplexity应用吗？

So is there a Comet standalone mobile app and a standalone Perplexity app?

会的。两者都会有独立应用。有些人会像使用Chrome或Safari那样使用Comet应用——这很正常，虽然他们可能不会这么做，因为Comet每个网页都配备可语音交互的AI。但用户仍需要快速访问网站。

Yeah. Will be standalone apps for both. Some people are gonna use the standalone Comet app just like how they use Chrome or Safari and it's okay. They probably won't do that because it's gonna have an AI that you can talk to on every web page, including in voice mode actually. But you still want to just navigate and get to a website quickly.

比如我只想浏览The Verge而不提问，这完全可行。也可以使用Perplexity应用获取发现流、空间等功能，或快速获得答案而无需网页界面。我们还会在Perplexity应用中内置浏览器版本，就像谷歌应用仍支持Chrome式导航——顺便说，iOS端的谷歌和Chrome应用都是WebKit内核。

Like I just wanna go and browse verge without actually having any question in my mind, that's fine. And I could go to Perplexity and have the all the other things the app has, like discover feeds and spaces and like just just like quick fast answers without the web interface. That's fine too. And we're gonna support like a packaged version of the browser comment within the Perplexity app, just like how the Google app still supports navigation like Chrome. So by the way, both the Google app and the Chrome app are WebKit apps on iOS.

同理，安卓端的谷歌和Chrome应用都是Chromium内核。我们也将遵循相同技术路线。

Similarly, both the Google app and the Chrome app are Chromium apps on Android. We'll have to follow the same trajectory.

说到竞争，我很好奇你对Dia这家浏览器公司的看法。他们几乎与你们同期发布产品，也在朝这个方向发展。虽然他们是规模较小的初创企业，但凭借Arc浏览器获得了大量关注，现在似乎正押注与你们Comet相同的理念。不知道你是否试用过？你认为它与Comet相比会如何？

Speaking of competition, I'm curious what you think of Dia, what the browser company has done. They released it around the same time as you. They're moving in this direction as well. Obviously they're a smaller startup but they got a lot of buzz with Arc, their original browser and now seem to be betting on the same idea that you have with Comet. I'm curious if you've gotten to try it or how you think it will stack up against Comet.

我本人还没试用过，但看过别人的评价。他们在前端视觉效果方面有些有趣的想法。如果我是他们，可能会选择在原有浏览器上尝试这些创新，而非另起炉灶构建新浏览器的分发渠道。不过确实挺有意思的。

I haven't tried it myself. I've seen what other people have said. I think they have some interesting ideas on like the visuals on the front end. If I were them, would have just tried it in the same browser they had instead of going and trying to build distribution on a new one. But yeah, it's interesting.

我们当然会研究市面上的所有产品，但更多精力会放在Chrome上——它才是行业巨头。我的思考角度是：即便只争取1%的Chrome用户将默认浏览器设为Comet，对我们都是巨大胜利，对他们也是重大损失。毕竟在这种量级下，任何广告收入流失都影响巨大。

Like we're definitely gonna study every product out there and our focus though more goes on to Chrome. It is the big brother. And the way I think about it is even if I take 1% of the Chrome users set their default as Comet as a massive, massive win for us and a massive loss for them too, by the way, because any ad revenue loss is massive, like at that scale.

口碑传播是你们发展Comet的主要方式吗？还是说也在寻求其他分发合作？

Is word-of-mouth the main way you're gonna grow Comet or are you looking for distribution partnerships beyond that?

初期我们会更依赖口碑增长，这种方式非常有力——Perplexity的成功已经验证了这点。我们计划延续这个轨迹。幸运的是Perplexity现有约三四千万用户基数，只要其中部分人尝试Comet并设为默认，就算不依赖分销合作也是重大胜利。当然未来也会探索类似谷歌的合作伙伴关系，不过必须说明这极其困难。

In the beginning, we're gonna do more word-of-mouth growth. It's very powerful. It's worked out well for us in the past with perplexity itself. And we're gonna try to follow the same trajectory here. And luckily we have an installed base of Perplexity already of like, you know, 30 to 40,000,000 people.

就像我们之前讨论过的，谷歌确保每部安卓手机都预装Chrome且不可更改——改动意味着巨额损失。微软同样强制所有Windows笔记本预装Edge浏览器。现阶段我们目标只是争取成为可选项，但即便这样，想让应用进入安卓或Windows系统构建都困难重重，特别是Windows平台几乎不可能说服大型OEM厂商改变预装协议。

So even if we get a good chunk of those people to try out Comet and and convert some of those people who tried it into setting it as default, it'll already be a massive victory without relying on any distribution partnerships. And then we're obviously gonna like try seeing like how to convert that progress into like, you know, a partnership like Google has with a bunch of people. I just want to like caveat by saying it's going be extremely hard. We've spoken about this in the past where Google make sure every Android phone has Google Chrome as the default browser. And you cannot change that.

这些厂商的协议往往锁定多年，他们合作的都是提前两年规划设备的企业。某种程度上这不是产品问题，甚至不完全是分发渠道问题，而是他们精心设计的法律协议体系。正因如此，我对司法部调查谷歌感到欣慰——我们还提交了建议清单，希望有所改变。

You lose a lot of money if you change that. Microsoft make sure every Windows laptop is coming with Edge as the default browser. Again, you you cannot change that. You you will lose a lot of money if you change that. Now the next step is, okay, let them be the default browser.

（续前）整个生态被这些长期协议牢牢锁定，OEM厂商的商业模式决定了他们必须提前多年规划设备配置。这本质上已超出产品竞争范畴，形成了某种制度性壁垒。

At least can you have your app as part of the Android or Windows build? You still cannot change that easily, especially on Windows, it's basically pretty impossible to convince like large OEMs to change that. So they have all these agreements that are like several years locked in and you work with companies that plan for like the device that they're shipping two years in advance. That's their mode in in some sense, it's not even the product. It's it's not even exactly in the distribution world.

（补充）这就是为什么我认为司法部介入调查谷歌具有积极意义。我们已就此提出系列建议，期待能推动某些变革发生。

It's more in these legalities of how they crafted these agreements, which is why I'm like like, you know, happy that the DOJ is at least looking into Google. And we've made a list of recommendations on that and I hope some something happens there.

确实。强制拆分Chrome会很有趣并重塑格局。很多人认为苹果应该收购你们——其高管Eddie Q在谷歌庭审中还称赞过你们，透露双方有过合作讨论。当然未官宣的事不便多谈，但你对苹果这个可能性怎么看？

Yeah. They may have forced a spin off of Chrome, which would be really interesting and reset things. You know, there's a lot of people that think Apple should buy you and Eddie Q, one of their top execs actually has some pretty nice things to say about you on the stand when he was there during the Google trial and said that you guys had talked about working together. Obviously, you can't talk about something that hasn't been announced yet, especially with Apple. But what do you make of that and Apple?

我是说，首先我很荣幸Eddie在庭审中提到我们，称他喜欢我们的产品，并从他的圈子里听说人们也喜欢它。我非常希望能与苹果合作，在Safari、Siri或苹果智能方面进行集成。这是一款几乎人人都爱用或视为身份象征的产品，就像每个人都想用苹果设备来彰显成就。所以我非常确定我们在设计美学方面有很多共同点，比如我们的做事方式和他们的做事方式。同时，我的目标是让Perplexity尽可能发展壮大。

I mean, I'm firstly honored by Eddie mentioning us in the trial as a product that he likes and he's heard from his circles that people like it. I would love for to work with Apple on integrations with, you know, Safari or Siri or Apple Intelligence. It's the one product that almost everybody loves using or it's a status symbol, like everybody wants to graduate using an Apple device. So I I'm I'm pretty sure that we share a lot of like design aesthetics in terms of like, you know, how we do things and how they do things. At the same time, like my goal is to make perplexity as big as possible.

完全有可能的是，这款浏览器如此平台无关，可以同时惠及Android和iOS生态系统，Windows和Mac生态系统。我们可以像谷歌一样独立壮大。当然，谷歌拥有Android，但你可以想象，如果他们仅仅拥有最好的搜索引擎和浏览器，而不拥有平台本身，他们也会非常成功。

It's definitely possible that this browser is so platform agnostic that it can benefit Android and iOS ecosystems, Windows and Mac ecosystems. And we can be pretty big on our own just like Google was. Of course, Google owns Android, but you could imagine like they would have been pretty successful if if they just had the best search engine and the best browser and they didn't actually own the platform either.

我和其他人也报道过，马克·扎克伯格曾接触你，探讨是否可能加入Meta并参与他们AI工作的重启。扎克的提议是什么？我很好奇，告诉我。

I and others also reported that Mark Zuckerberg approached you about potentially joining Meta and working on his reboot of their AI efforts. What was Zuck's pitch? I'm curious. Tell me.

扎克很棒。他做了很多了不起的事情，我认为Meta的产品粘性非常强，这太棒了。我们视之为一个例子，说明即使不拥有自己的平台，也有可能建立一个大企业。

Zuck is awesome. Like, he's doing a lot of awesome things and I think like Meta has such a sticky product. It's it's fantastic. And we look at that as an example of like, you know, it's possible to build a large business without having any platform yourself.

你对扎克为顶级AI研究支付的数字感到震惊吗？那些九位数的薪酬提议。我认为其中很多实际上与Meta股票需要上涨才能兑现有关，所以这些数字相当依赖于业务表现，而不仅仅是保证支付，但仍然是巨大的数字。

Were you shocked by the numbers that Zuck is paying for top AI research? These 9 figure compensation offers. I think a lot of them are actually tied to Meta's stock needing to increase for those numbers to be paid. So it's actually pretty contingent on on the business and not just, you know, guaranteed payouts, but still huge numbers.

是的，巨大。我确实对这些数字的规模感到惊讶。看起来他们目前需要这样做。但与此同时，像埃隆和Xayah已经表明，你不需要花费那么多就能训练出与OpenAI和Anthropic竞争的模型。

Yeah. Huge. And definitely I was surprised by the by the magnitude of the numbers. Seems like it's needed at this point for them. But at the same time, like, Elon and Xayah have shown like, you know, you you don't need to spend that much to train models competitive with OpenAI and Anthropic.

所以我不确定仅靠金钱是否能解决这里的所有问题。你需要一个团队，他们合作良好，有正确的使命对齐和里程碑。在某种意义上，失败对他们来说不是一个选项。投资如此巨大，我感觉扎克的想法可能是，我会得到所有人，我会得到所有计算资源，我会为你们设定所有里程碑，但现在就看你们如何执行了。

So I don't know if money alone solves every problem here. You do need to have a team that works well together, has a proper mission alignment and milestones. In some sense, failure is not an option for them. The amount of investment is so big, and I feel like the way Zac probably thinks is, you know, I'm gonna get all the people. I'm gonna get all the compute, and I'm gonna get all the like like, you know, milestones set up for you guys, but now it's all on you to execute.

如果你们失败了，那对我来说会很难看，所以你们最好不要失败。这大概就是交易的内容。

And and if you fail, like, it's it's gonna look pretty bad on me, so you better not fail. That's probably the the deal.

你认为扎克的招聘狂潮之后，对AI人才市场会产生哪些二阶效应？

What are the second order effects to the AI talent market, you think, after this, after Zuck's hiring spree?

我是说，现在肯定会感觉像转会市场了，对吧？就像NBA之类的。是的，会有一些个体明星拥有非常大的影响力。

I mean, it's it's definitely gonna feel like a transfer market now. Right? Like like like with NBA or something. Yeah. There's gonna be a few individual stars who are like having so much leverage.

我发现的一件事是，Anthropic的研究人员并不是被挖角的对象。

One thing I've is anthropic researchers are not the ones getting poached.

大体上是这样。他确实挖过一些人，但数量并不多。

Mostly. They have he has poached some, but not not not as many.

是的。所以这感觉像是实验室需要努力的方向，即真正让人们为一个使命对齐，金钱本身不足以成为他们的动力。作为一家公司，当你的公司表现良好，股价上涨，每天工作都能获得多巴胺，遇到新的挑战，感受到巨大成长，学习新事物，同时财富也在增长。

Yeah. So it does feel like that's something labs need to work on, which is truly like aligning people on one mission that like money alone is not the motivator for them. And as a company, your company is doing well, like, know, the stock is going up and you feel dopamine from working there every day and it's you're encountering new kind of challenges. You feel a lot of growth. You're learning new things and you're getting richer too along the way.

那么，仅仅因为有一些保障性收入，你为什么要离开呢？

Like, why would you wanna go and just because you have some guaranteed payments.

你是否强烈考虑通过实现Perplexity的盈利来掌控自己的命运，可以这么说吗？

Do you think strongly about getting perplexity or profitability to be able to control your own destiny, so to speak?

毫无疑问这是必然的。我们希望在IPO之前做到这一点，并认为我们可以在2028或2029年上市。顺便说清楚，我个人希望进行IPO，不像一些公司选择永远保持私有化。尽管私有化在并购和决策权上有优势，但IPO带来的公众关注、营销效应，以及人们终于能投资一个谷歌搜索的替代品，这对我们来说是巨大的机会。但我认为在达到10亿美元收入和一定盈利能力之前上市是不合理的。

Definitely it's inevitable. We wanna do it before the IPO and we think we can IPO in twenty twenty eight or '9. I would like to IPO by the way, just to speak clear, I don't wanna stay private forever like some of the companies have chosen to do so. Even though it gives you advantages in M and As and not like decision making power, I do think the publicity and the marketing you get from an IPO and the fact that people can finally invest in a search alternative to Google is pretty massive opportunity for us to IPO. But I don't think it makes sense to IPO before hitting like a billion dollars in revenue and some profitability along the way.

所以这绝对是我们未来三四年要实现的目标。但我不想因此限制当前的发展，停止尝试新事物的进取心。

So that's that's definitely something we wanna get do in the next four years or three years. But I don't wanna like stunt our own growth and not be aggressive in trying new things today.

有道理。你们推出Perplexity才刚过三年，就在ChatGPT首次亮相的时候。想想我们讨论的所有事情都发生在这短短三年里，真是不可思议。

Makes sense. Yeah. You launched Perplexity. It's crazy that it's already been over just over three years now and it was right around when ChatGPT first launched. And it's wild to think about everything we've talked about and that all this has happened in, like, barely three years.

这可能是个难以回答的问题，但我想用这个问题结束：展望三年后的未来，你刚提到的IPO很有趣，但三年后的Perplexity会是什么样子？

So maybe this is an impossible question, but I wanna leave you with this question. If you look out three years from now, you just talked about the IPO, which which is interesting. But what does perplexity look like three years from now?

我希望它成为当你真正想完成任何事情时首先想到的工具。它能与你建立深度连接，同步你的所有上下文，主动为你思考，真正让你的生活变得更轻松。

I hope it becomes the one tool you think of when you want to actually get anything done. And it has like lot of like deep connection to you because it synchronizes with all your context and proactively thinks on your behalf and truly makes your life a lot easier.

好的，我们就到这里。Aravind，谢谢。

Alright. We'll leave it there. Aravind, thanks.

谢谢。

Thank you.

感谢Aravind抽空与我交谈，也感谢各位的收听。若您想分享对本集的看法或建议我们探讨的其他话题，请随时来信。您可发送邮件至decoder@theverge.com。我们也在TikTok和Instagram上，账号是decoder pod。如果您喜欢《解码器》，请分享给朋友并在您获取播客的平台订阅。

Thanks to Aravind for taking the time to speak with me, and thank you for tuning in. If you'd like to let us know what you thought about this episode or what else you'd like us to cover, drop us a line. You can email us at decoder@theverge.com. We're also on TikTok and Instagram via at decoder pod. If you like decoder, please share it with your friends and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

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下次见。

See you next time.

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