人工智能产业正处在一个重大十字路口

是否曾感觉你作为营销专业人士只是在对着虚空喊话？虚空。虚空。但通过领英广告，你能确保触达正确的决策者——实际上是一个由1.3亿人构成的网络。你甚至可以按职位头衔、行业、公司、资历、技能来定向投放广告，对了，我提到过职位头衔吗？

Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? Void. Void. But with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers, a network of a 130,000,000 of them, in fact. You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company, seniority, skills, and did I say job title?

了解如何通过领英广告避开虚空，精准触达目标买家。首期广告投放250美元，即可获赠250美元信用额度用于下次投放。立即开始：linkedin.com/campaign。条款与条件适用。

See how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Get started at linkedin.com/campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

停止猜测。通过用户测试，你可以从最重要的人群——你的受众那里测试任何内容并获得全方位洞察。无论是广告活动、网站原型还是全新产品功能，用户测试都能让你在几小时内（而非数周）看到并听到真实反馈。这意味着无需猜测，也不会白费功夫。只有即刻可用的真知灼见。

Stop the guessing. With user testing, you can test anything and learn everything from the people who matter most, your audience. Whether it's an ad campaign, a website prototype, or a brand new product feature, user testing helps you see and hear real reactions in just hours, not weeks. That means no guesswork and no wasted effort. Just insights you can act on right away.

团队通过用户测试加速进程，做出更明智决策，打造人们真正喜爱的体验。真实用户，真实反馈，极速呈现。了解更多：usertesting.com/audio。

Teams use user testing to move faster, make smarter decisions, and craft experiences people truly love. Real people, real reactions, real fast. Learn more at usertesting.com/audio.

LPL金融为您提供推动前行的服务。当涉及您的财务、事业与未来时，唯一的问题应该是：如果可能，你会怎么做？

With LPL Financial, we provide the services to help push you forward. When it comes to your finances, your business, your future, the only question should be, what if you could?

付费广告。安娜·肯德里克并非LPL金融有限责任公司客户，其推广行为获得报酬。投资涉及风险，包括可能的本金损失。LPL金融有限责任公司是FINRA/SIPC成员。

Paid advertisement. Anna Kendrick is not a client of LPL Financial LLC and receives compensation to promote LPL. Investing involves risk, including potential loss of principal LPL Financial LLC member Finrose, APC.

大家好，欢迎收听《解码器》。我是海登·菲尔德，《The Verge》资深AI记者，也是本周四节目的客座主持人。在尼利休育儿假期间由我代班，我很期待继续探讨AI行业的光明面、阴暗面和争议点。这周AI领域大新闻不断，多数与OpenAI有关。该公司周一在旧金山举办了年度开发者大会，我现在仍驻现场追踪所有动态。

Hey there, and welcome to Decoder. I'm Hayden Field, senior AI reporter at The Verge and your Thursday episode guest host. I'm subbing in for Nely while he's still out on parental leave, and I'm excited to keep diving into the good, the bad, and the questionable in the AI industry. It's been a very big news week in AI, and a lot of it had to do with OpenAI. The company hosted its annual Dev Day in San Francisco on Monday, and I'm still here in person covering all the news.

他们宣布了一系列ChatGPT产品功能和新代理工具，高管们还阐述了关于AI未来的大胆愿景。与此同时，新推出的Sora iOS应用将AI生成视频推向主流，引发了各种意想不到的后果，甚至让OpenAI首席执行官山姆·奥特曼都感到惊讶，他已成为全网Sora表情包的代言人。本周早些时候，《纽约时报》发表了一篇精彩报道，讲述AI驱动的职位筛选已变得如此普遍，求职者开始偷偷在简历中嵌入给聊天机器人的隐藏信息，实质上试图通过提示注入自动化筛选流程以获得面试机会。我邀请了AI初创公司mView的首席执行官Kangjun Q，也是该行业的密切观察者，来帮我解析这一切。Kanjun既是科技创始人也是投资人，她对AI及整个科技行业的视角非常独特。

They announced a bunch of ChatGPT product features and new agent tools, and executives also laid out a pretty bold vision for the future of AI. At the same time, the new Sora iOS app has shoved AI generated video into mainstream, creating all sorts of unintended consequences and even surprising OpenAI CEO Sam Altman, who's become the face of Sora memes across the Internet. And earlier this week, the New York Times published a great story about how AI powered job screening has become so prevalent that applicants are starting to sneak in hidden messages to chatbots inside their resumes, effectively trying to prompt inject the automated job screening process for a better chance at an interview. I brought in Kangjun Q, CEO of AI startup, mView, and a close watcher of the industry to help me break all this down. Kanjoon has been both a tech founder and investor, and her perspective on AI and the broader tech industry in general is a very unique one.

所以我希望与她聊聊本周最重要的AI新闻，剖析真实发生的事件、背后的原因及其社会影响。好的。MBU首席执行官Kanjun Q，关于本周AI行业的好、坏与存疑之处。我们开始吧。MBU首席执行官Kanjun Q，欢迎来到Decoder节目。

So I wanted to chat with her about this week's biggest AI stories to break down what's really happening, why it's happening, and the societal implications of it all. Okay. MBU CEO, Kanjoon Q, on the good, the bad, and the questionable in the AI industry this week. Here we go. Kangjun Q, CEO of MBU, welcome to Decoder.

谢谢，Hayden。很高兴来到这里。

Thanks, Hayden. I'm glad to be here.

让我们直接进入本周的第一个话题。昨天，OpenAI在其年度开发者日活动上宣布了ChatGPT应用，使应用能在ChatGPT内使用。开发者可以构建它们。我们看到它随一批应用上线，包括Booking.com、Canva、Coursera、Expedia、Figma、Spotify、Zillow，很快还会加入DoorDash、OpenTable、Uber和Target。

So let's jump right into our first story of the week. Yesterday, OpenAI at its annual Dev Day event announced ChatGPT apps, making apps available within ChatGPT. Developers can build them. We saw it launched with a bunch of them. So booking.com, Canva, Coursera, Expedia, Figma, Spotify, Zillow, and soon they're also gonna have DoorDash, OpenTable, Uber, Target in there.

这意味着作为ChatGPT用户，你现在可以在其界面内要求这些应用为你提供服务。我想知道你如何看待这个公告，它对你有多重要？你认为这是当天最重要的公告，还是仅仅向前迈出的一小步？

So right now that obviously means you can, as a user of ChatGPT, ask for one of these apps to do something for you within the ChatGPT interface. I wanna know if you saw that announcement and how big of a deal that was to you. Did you think that was the biggest announcement of the day or, you know, just a small incremental step forward?

嗯，我认为这一切都在预料之中。整个代理生态系统正朝着这个方向发展。我的理解是，这有点像AI界的iOS——OpenAI试图构建的单一界面，让你作为用户通过ChatGPT这一个入口接入所有不同应用。我认为这意义重大。

Well, I think that this is all to be expected. You know? This is kind of where the entire agent ecosystem has been going toward. And the way I think about it is it's kind of like the iOS of AI where you have this single interface that OpenAI is trying to build that is the way that you as a user get into all of these different apps through this single interface, ChatGPT. And I think that's a big deal.

而且我认为，这种模式将对未来AI领域的权力格局产生深远影响。

And I think that there are going to be really major implications on the power dynamics with AI going forward from that kind of approach.

怎么说？

How so?

是的。我认为目前我们正处于一个十字路口，AI是否会像过去十年的互联网那样成为另一个封闭的平台花园，或者我们最终能否拥有真正民主化、分散权力的AI，就像最初的互联网或个人电脑那样。而现在，我们正处于这种平台网络效应的生态系统中，这些AI模型提供商通过合作伙伴关系让你能与其他许多应用集成。这意味着就像苹果的iOS系统一样，他们试图将你锁定在他们的平台生态系统中。Cory Doctorow有一个很好的演讲，谈到了他所谓的‘平台劣化’现象——平台一开始会做得很棒，比如Facebook对用户非常有用。

Yeah. I think right now, we're kind of at a crossroads on whether AI becomes another walled garden platform situation just like the Internet has been the last ten years or whether we end up having AI that actually democratizes and decentralizes power in the way that the original Internet did or the personal computer did. And right now, we're in this kind of platform network effect ecosystem right now where, you know, you have these AI provider model providers, and they are providing something like this that lets you integrate with a lot of other apps through partnerships. And what that means is that just like with iOS, Apple, they're kind of trying to lock you into their platform ecosystem. And what we've seen, there's a really good talk from Cory Doctorow on what he calls in shitification, which is platforms, they'll start out doing great things, you know, being really useful to your users like Facebook.

但随着时间的推移，它们会试图锁定用户，最终我们只能任其摆布而无法退出。所以现在的问题实质是：是我们控制AI，还是AI控制我们？是我们拥有它，还是仅仅从这些中心化平台租用它？我认为当今存在一种风险，即人们正在丧失塑造控制我们生活的数字系统的能力。从我们与数字设备的关系中就能窥见一二。

And then over time, what they try to do is they lock in their users, and then we end up being at their mercy, and we can't exit. And so we're really in a place right now where the question is like, do we control AI or does it control us? Do we own it or do we just rent it from these centralized platforms? And I think there's a risk today of people losing the ability to shape the digital systems that control our lives. And you can see it a little bit in how we relate to our digital devices right now.

比如我的手机，我对它有种强烈的抵触感。我需要戒断手机、电视或电脑。这种与生活中物品的关系很奇怪——如果我需要戒断沙发，那我直接换张沙发就好了。

Like my phone, I feel really aversive to my phone. You know, I need to detox from my phone or my TV or my computer. And that's a really weird relationship to an object in my life. Like if I had to detox from my sofa, then I would get a different sofa. Right.

对吧？但我们不会这么想。那么为什么？为什么我们需要戒断设备？因为我们的设备充斥着他人设计的内容，这些设计的动机未必与我们一致。

Right? But we don't think about that. So why? Why do we have to detox from our devices? It's because our device is full of things that are built right by other people and have incentives that are not necessarily aligned with ours.

随着AI变得更强大，这些动机也会变得更强大。所以我们希望身处不同的世界。这就是我看到的危险——虽然AI很棒、很酷、充满赋能潜力，但此刻我们确实处于历史转折点。

And as AI gets more powerful, those incentives, those will become more powerful as well. And so we wanna be in a in a different world. And so that's kind of the risk I see. I think it's great, like, really cool, very empowering, and also, like, we're kind of at a turning point in time right now.

有道理。你关于‘十字路口’和‘封闭花园’的比喻很精彩。我还想追问：目前这些应用中，OpenAI控制着分发渠道，只有大企业才能进入这个领域。但长远来看，当前的趋势似乎是任何开发者都能构建应用，并可能整合到ChatGPT中。

That makes sense. I like what you said about the crossroads about whether it becomes a walled garden. And right now, I wanted to also ask down the line, at the moment for these apps, OpenAI is controlling distribution. Only large businesses are really being allowed to enter this space right now. But down the line, the current vibe is that anyone, any developer will be able to build an app and maybe it is integrated within ChatGPT.

那么当这种情况被这样公开时会发生什么？你认为OpenAI的控制措施和安全保障足够吗？你刚才稍微提到了这一点。不过，是的，我很想听听你的看法。

So what happens when this gets opened up like that? Do you think controls and safeguards from OpenAI will be enough? You got at this a little bit a minute ago. But, yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

是的。我认为这部分会与我们在过去十年中看到的移动生态系统（iOS和Android）非常相似，很多人构建所谓的应用并通过平台分发。这不是问题。我认为会有足够的安全保障，OpenAI有强烈的动机去打造一个真正健康的生态系统和不会给人们带来问题的好应用。然而，这并没有解决我们是否真正掌控自己数字环境的控制问题。

Yeah. I think that part is going to be quite similar to what we saw in the last ten years with the mobile ecosystem with iOS and Android, lots of people building, quote, unquote, apps and getting distribution through the platform. And that's not a problem. I think there will be plenty of safeguards and, you know, OpenAI has great incentive to try to make a really healthy ecosystem and good apps that don't cause people problems. However, it doesn't solve for the control problem of do we actually have control over our digital environments.

没错。让我们稍微谈谈Imbue在AI代理上的方法，与昨天我们看到的有何不同。我们已经稍微触及了这一点，但你们完全采用去中心化的方式。这如何与我们在其他地方看到的一切相协调？谈谈你们希望如何以不同的方式行事。

Right. Let's talk a little bit about Imbue's approach to AI agents compared to what we saw yesterday. So we already touched on this a little bit, but you guys are all about the decentralized approach. How does that play into everything we're seeing elsewhere? Talk a little bit about how you guys are hoping to do things differently.

我认为这是一个非常困难的问题。我们现在所处的时刻，就像我所说的关于我们的手机或设备的情况，我们实际上是在租用这些应用。我们并不拥有它们。别人制作它们，我们使用它们。这意味着制作它们的人有从中赚钱的动机，这通常是没问题的。

I think it's a really hard problem. And the moment in time we're at is kind of where we are in our digital environments today is what I said about our phones or our devices where we're really renting these apps. We don't own them. Somebody else is making them and we're using them. And that means that, you know, there are incentives where people who make them want to make money off of them, and that's generally okay.

我们真正陷入麻烦的方式是这些设备、数字系统，它们有非常精细的控制来捕捉我们的注意力。它们通知我们。它们嵌入在我们的工作流程中。因此，因为其他人控制着这些应用，他们也容易开始控制我们。所以我认为，实际上现在，我们有一个机会窗口来真正改变这种控制动态。

The way in which we really get into trouble is these devices, digital systems, they have very fine grained controls that capture our attention. They notify us. They are embedded in our workflows. And so because other people are controlling these apps, it's also easy for them to start controlling us. And so I think actually right now, today, we have a window of opportunity to really change this dynamic of control.

过去，我们之所以有这种软件创造的动态，是因为制作软件非常困难。你需要雇佣非常昂贵的开发者，构建软件，支付开发费用，然后以盈利为目的出售。但我们正开始进入一个世界，正如OpenAI开发者日所展示的，你可以用自然语言生成应用、生成东西，这些语言模型在编写代码方面开始变得非常出色。因此，理论上，我们可以进入一个许多人可以编写代码的世界。许多人不仅可以编写代码，还可以拿一个软件并修改它，使其适合自己。

In the past, the reason why we have this dynamic with software creation is because it's been really hard to make software. So you need to hire developers who are really expensive, build software, pay for the development, and then sell it for a profit. But we're starting to get into a world where, you know, as OpenAI Dev Day demonstrated, you can generate apps, generate things using natural language and these language models are starting to get really good at writing code. And so in theory, we could go into a world where a lot of people can write code. And a lot of people could not just write code but take a piece of software and change it to make it fit for themselves.

一个例子就像医生处理电子病历系统时，他们必须输入所有这些字段，系统并不适合他们，许多医生因此遭遇大量职业倦怠。理论上，在这个未来的世界里，他们可以拥有一个系统，帮助他们在使用时修改软件。我们称之为“使用时修改”。因此，作为用户，我知道什么对我最好，我知道我需要什么，我可以在当下改变我的数字环境，使其更适合我，而不是适合设计软件的人。然而，这需要发明一些不同的部分，就像我们现在所处的时刻让我想起二十世纪六十年代。

An example of that is like a doctor who's dealing with an electronic medical record system where they have to put in all these fields, it's not suited for them, and a lot of doctors encounter a lot of burnout from this situation. And in theory, they could, in this future world, just have a system that helps them change the software at the point of use. We call this modifying at the point of use. And so I as the user know what's best for me, I know what I need, And I can change my digital environment right in the moment so that it suits me better instead of suiting whoever designed the software. However, that requires inventing a few different pieces Just like how, you know, the moment we're in, it reminds me of the nineteen sixties.

六十年代，人们对超级计算机充满热情。他们以为所有人都会通过终端共享超级计算机的使用时间。就像我们都会在终端上共享时间、使用超级计算机，那会超级酷。然后到了七十年代，六十年代末，施乐帕洛阿尔托研究中心的一小群人发明了鼠标、图形用户界面、文件、文件夹、窗口等一切让我们能制造个人电脑的东西，这才有了今天的个人计算。

In the sixties, people were really excited about supercomputers. They thought everyone's gonna time share on supercomputers through these terminals. Like, we're all gonna be in terminals time sharing and using supercomputers. It's gonna be super cool. And then in the seventies, late sixties, a small group of people at Xerox PARC invented the mouse, the GUI, files, folders, Windows, everything that allowed us to make personal computers and that led to personal computing today.

这些发明让技术能力变得更易获取，使人们能为自身使用计算，并自行改造电脑。我认为我们现在有机会为AI生态系统做出类似的发明。

And what that did is it made the technology capabilities more accessible so that people could use computing for themselves and modify their computer for themselves. And I think we have an opportunity kind of to make the same inventions for the AI ecosystem.

明白了，有道理。回到昨天的开发者日，他们发布了许多关于自主AI的公告。显然，这正契合OpenAI及AI公司普遍的更广泛智能体目标。但我想请你聊聊他们的智能体更新与你们采取的去中心化方法有何不同。

Got it. That makes sense. And back to yesterday at Dev Day, they made a lot of agentic AI announcements. Obviously, this is kind of just playing into OpenAI and AI companies in general's broader agent goals. But I would love for you to chat a little bit about how their agent updates differ from the decentralized approach you guys are taking.

他们举了一个企业案例：艾伯森超市使用OpenAI的智能体构建器来询问冰淇淋销量下滑的原因，并利用自身数据和传统营销制定提升销量的计划。你对这些公告怎么看？它们如何与你刚才提到的在用户设备端进行变革的观点相关联？

So one one corporate example they used was Albertsons grocery stores using OpenAI's agent builder to ask about why ice cream sales were down and create a plan for getting them back up again using their own data and their own traditional marketing. So what did you make of those announcements, how does that kinda play into what you were just getting at in terms of changing things up at the point of use for your own devices?

赋能与控制之间存在区别。智能体工具包非常赋能——我现在能做以前做不到的事，这很棒。所有技术本质上都是赋能的，这意味着我可以构建应用。

There's a difference between empowerment and control. And so the agent kit is super empowering. I can now do things I couldn't do before and that's super cool. Like, that's with all technology is empowering, you know? And, like, that means I can build apps.

我能回答以前无法解答的问题，这些都很令人兴奋。但区别在于，使用OpenAI的系统，你只能在他们的平台上构建应用。你的智能体运行在他们的服务器上，遵循他们的规则。

I can, like, answer questions I couldn't answer before. All of that is really exciting. The difference is with OpenAI's system, you can build apps but only within their platform. Your agent runs on their servers. It follows their rules.

你需要支付他们的API费用。虽然能触达他们的十亿用户，但你可能失去对自己目标的掌控权。举个有点滑稽的例子：上周二我们Imbue刚发布了Sculptor——一个用编码智能体构建软件的工具。这是个Mac应用，但当我们在苹果应用商店注册时，尽管我们是合法公司，苹果却封禁了我们。

It pays their API fees. You get distribution to their, you know, billion users, but you risk losing control over what you're trying to do. One kind of silly example is Imbue recently we, last Tuesday, actually launched Sculptor, which is a tool for building software using coding agents. And it's a Mac app. And when we were trying to register with the Apple App Store, Apple banned us even though we are a legitimate company.

我们花了几天时间，动用了苹果内部许多关系才弄清楚如何解除对自己的封禁。这只是一个例子，一个非常微不足道的例子，没有造成重大负面影响，但它却是一个我们相对于中心化平台失去权力的缩影。那么问题来了，如果由你而非平台来控制AI，并通过它们的平台使用AI，那会是什么样子？

And it took us several days and pulling a lot of internal strings at Apple to figure out how to unban ourselves. And that's an example. It's a very trivial example, not huge downside effects, but it's a trivial example of a way in which we have lost power relative to a centralized platform. And so the question is, like, what would it look like if you controlled AI instead of platforms controlling AI and you using it through their platforms?

我们需要短暂休息一下，马上回来。

We need to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

本节目由领英赞助支持。作为小企业主，你的生意时刻萦绕心头。因此在招聘时，你需要一个与你同样努力的合作伙伴。这个招聘伙伴就是领英招聘。当你下班时，领英才开始工作。

Support for this show comes from LinkedIn. When you're a small business owner, your business is on your mind twenty four seven. So when you're hiring, you need a partner that works just as hard as you do. That hiring partner is LinkedIn jobs. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in.

领英让你轻松免费发布职位，分享到人脉网络，并在同一平台管理优质候选人。新功能可帮助你撰写职位描述，并通过深度候选人洞察快速将职位展示给合适人选。可选择免费发布或付费推广，推广职位能获得三倍优质申请人。对小企业而言，候选人质量始终至关重要。

LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network, and get qualified candidates that you can manage all in one place. LinkedIn's new features can help you write job descriptions and then quickly get your job in front of the right people with deep candidate insights. Either post your job for free or pay to promote. Promoted jobs get three times more qualified applicants. At the end of the day, the most important thing to your small business is the quality of candidates.

使用领英，你可以确信获得最佳人选。领英数据显示，72%使用领英的中小企业表示它帮助找到了高质量候选人。了解为何超过250万家小企业选择领英进行招聘。立即在领英寻找你的下一位优秀员工。免费发布职位请访问linkedin.com/partner。

And with LinkedIn, you can feel confident that you're getting the best. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of SMBs using LinkedIn say that it helps them find high quality candidates. Find out why more than 2,500,000 small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring today. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at linkedin.com/partner.

免费发布职位请访问linkedin.com/partner。条款与条件适用。

That's linkedin.com/partner to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

请思考这个问题：为何我们总认为简单实惠就意味着基础或仅适合初学者？专业人士同样需要节省时间和金钱，他们理应获得真正简化生活的工具。这正是Space Ship的理念——一个简化域名购买、连接和管理的平台。已注册超过400万个域名，同时提供网络托管、企业邮箱及虚拟机等高级商业产品，还有Hyperlift无需接触基础设施即可创建应用、API和网站。

Here's something to think Why do we assume simple and affordable has to mean basic or just for beginners? Professionals want to save time and money too and they deserve tools that actually make life easier. That's the idea behind Space Ship. A platform that simplifies buying, connecting, and managing domain names. With over 4,000,000 domains registered already, that's alongside offering web hosting, business email, and more advanced business products like virtual machines and Hyperlift, which lets you create apps, APIs, websites, and more without touching infrastructure.

您已准备就绪，数秒内即可启动新项目。此外，Spaceship还附带额外亮点功能，包括Unbox——轻松将产品与域名连接；Alf——您的AI助手，可处理域名转移、DNS更新等繁琐任务；以及Roadmap——社区驱动的功能提议与投票机制，确保平台始终围绕专业人士需求演进。欲享独家优惠，请访问spaceship.com/decoder并使用促销码decoder。网址：spaceship.com/decoder。

You're ready to launch new ventures in seconds. Plus, Spaceship comes with extra highlights, including Unbox, making it super easy to connect products to your domain, or Alf, your AI buddy, that can handle domain transfers, DNS updates, and all the tedious tasks, and Roadmap. A community driven way to suggest and vote on features so the platform evolves around what professionals need. So for exclusive deals, visit spaceship.com/decoder and use the promo code decoder. That's spaceship.com/decoder.

促销码decoder。

Promo code decoder.

作为创始人，您正快速推进产品市场匹配、下一轮融资或首笔大企业交易。但随着AI加速初创企业的开发与交付速度，安全合规要求也来得更快、标准比以往更高。正确处理安全合规能推动增长，而拖延则可能阻碍发展。Vanta作为信任管理平台，帮助企业自动化安全合规流程，覆盖SOC2、ISO27001、HIPAA等35+框架。通过为快速发展的团队打造深度集成与自动化工作流，Vanta助您快速达到审计要求，并在模型、基础设施和客户变化时持续监控保障安全。

As a founder, you're moving fast towards product market fit, your next round, or your first big enterprise deal. But with AI accelerating how quickly startups build and ship, security expectations are also coming in faster, and those expectations are higher than ever. Getting security and compliance right can unlock growth or stall it if you wait too long. Vanta is a trust management platform that helps businesses automate security and compliance across more than 35 frameworks like SOC two, ISO twenty seven zero zero one, HIPAA, and more. With deep integrations and automated workflows built for fast moving teams, Vanta gets you audit ready fast and keeps you secure with continuous monitoring as your models, infrastructure, and customers evolve.

这正是Langcheng、Ryder、Cursor等高速增长初创企业选择Vanta构建可扩展合规基础的原因。立即访问vanta.com/vox，通过Vanta初创计划节省1000美元，加入已超10000家与Vanta共同成长的企业。限时优惠请访问vanta.com/vox。

That's why fast growing startups like Langcheng, Ryder, and Cursor have all trusted Vanta to build a scalable compliance foundation from the start. Go to vanta.com/vox to save $1,000 today through the Vanta for Startups program and join over 10,000 ambitious companies already scaling with Vanta. That's vanta.com/vox to save $1,000 for a limited time.

我们再次连线MBU首席执行官Kanjoon Q，探讨本周AI领域重大事件。此前我们讨论了OpenAI开发者日的重磅公告。Kanjoon认为AI行业正面临十字路口：是选择开放用户主导的AI愿景，还是延续Web2.0时代封闭的平台中心化模式。现在我想请Kanjoon谈谈OpenAI另一热点——Sora应用。

We're back with MBU CEO, Kanjoon Q, talking about the biggest AI stories this week. Before the break, Kanjoon and I were discussing OpenAI's big dev day announcements. And Kanjoon's perspective was that we're at a crossroads in the AI industry between an open user controlled vision for AI and the more walled garden platform centric approach that dominated during web two point o. But now I wanna ask Kenjun about the other major OpenAI story going on right now. That is, of course, the Sora app.

接下来讨论本周第二焦点：Sora二代及AI换脸现象。过去一周，你我和所有认识的人可能都被AI生成视频刷屏了。这源于OpenAI新款iOS应用Sora二代（虽需邀请码），它让社交媒体充斥着Sam Altman、任天堂角色、尼克儿童频道角色甚至令人不安的政治评论视频。请问您是否已获得Sora使用权限？实际体验如何？

Let's get into our second story of the week, which is Sora two and AI swap in general. Obviously, over the last week, you, I, and everyone else we know probably has seen AI generated video blowing up. It's because of Sora two, OpenAI's new iOS app that, though it's invite only, has started flooding social media feeds with videos of Sam Altman, Nintendo characters, Nickelodeon characters, and even some unsettling political commentary. So I wanted to see if you have access to Sora. Are you using it?

对这个奇特新平台的首周表现，您有何见解？

What have been your thoughts so far on, the first week of this strange new platform?

我认为Sora展示了当AI能力遇上平台激励时会发生什么。这非常有趣。我们讨论社交媒体时提到的平台和激励机制，它们优化的是用户参与度和注意力捕获。而这正是赚钱、盈利、广告等的基础。通常，只要不过分，这并不是什么大问题。

I think Sora shows what happens when AI capabilities meet platform incentives. It's really interesting. Platforms and incentives we talked about with social media, they optimize for engagement and attention capture. And that's what allows for making money, profit, ads, etcetera. Generally, this is not a huge problem until you take it too far.

实际上，当我们讨论技术权力的形态时，这是个完美的案例研究。我在OpenAI的朋友们谈到，他们试图开发一个能创造快乐、给人们带来娱乐和欢乐时刻的视频生成应用，这真的很酷。从我的角度看，这是件好事。但当你试图创造快乐的同时，又为了最大化利润而最大化用户参与度时，我认为这很难让人完全信任。因此，我预计这个平台会吸引大量用户使用并创作大量视频。

It's actually a perfect it's a perfect case study when we talk about the shape of tech power. My friends at OpenAI talk about how it's actually cool they're trying to create a video generation app that creates joy, gives people moments of entertainment and joy. And I think from my perspective that's a great thing. And any time you're trying to create joy and also maximize engagement to maximize profit, it is not necessarily I think it's like very difficult to trust. And so I think what I would expect to happen is that this platform engages a lot of people, gets a lot of users using it and creating lots of videos.

会有人展示他们制作的视频有多酷，这本身并不是坏事。然而，随着时间的推移，很多人对它的感受会像对TikTok一样：'嘿，三个小时过去了，这不是我本意。发生了什么？'这又回到了关于控制的概念。

And there will be people showcasing videos and how cool what they made was and that's not such a bad thing. However, over time, a lot of people will feel similarly about this as they feel about TikTok. Hey, three hours went past and that's not what I intended. What happened? And it goes back to kind of this idea of control.

我们生活在一个数字技术控制我们，而非我们控制技术的世界里。

We're in a world where our digital technology controls us and not the other way around.

有道理。我本来想问你，是否认为OpenAI试图通过Sora在生成式AI的娱乐产业方面获利。这是否只是以牺牲我们的注意力为代价的赚钱手段？嗯，你刚才已经给出了很好的回答。事实上，昨天的开发者日上，他们设立了一个Sora电影院快闪店，可以观看人们制作的一些视频。

That makes sense. I was going to ask you if you think OpenAI is trying to cash in on the entertainment industry side of generative AI with Sora. Is it just a money making effort at the expense of our attention spans? And, yeah, you just gave a pretty good answer to that. In fact, yesterday at Dev Day, they had a Sora cinema pop up where you could watch some of the videos that people have been making.

我和其他几位记者观看部分视频时确实感到有些压抑。正如你所说，这是个有趣的案例研究。我还想请教你：我看到OpenAI在快速行动，试图向版权持有者展示诚意——至少他们声称如此，并证明自己并非从事猖獗的版权侵权业务，这在应用上线首周极具争议。但比授权和版权问题更核心的，似乎是这究竟是在创造某种创意价值，还是在助长本就充满毒性的互联网环境。

And I and a few other reporters did feel a little depressed watching some of them. It was an interesting case study, like you said. I would also love to ask you. So I've seen OpenAI moving pretty quickly here to try to make a good faith effort to rights holders, or at least they say they are, and prove that they're not in the business of rampant copyright infringement, which is something that was super controversial the first week of this app's life cycle. But the bigger question here beyond the licensing and rights issue seems to be more about whether this is actually creating any type of creative value or in fact just contributing to an already toxic Internet.

那么你对AI生成视频的立场是什么？我知道你已提到它可能最终会像TikTok一样，无意中占用用户时间，与其他社交媒体应用无异。但关于错误信息的问题呢？特别是这个系统生成的视频比大多数其他系统都更逼真——你根本看不到任何六根手指的手。

So where do you land on AI generated video? I know you already mentioned a little bit about how it may end up just being like TikTok and just a thing that takes some of your time away unwittingly and no worse than other social media apps. But what about the misinformation side of it and the fact that this system specifically is a lot more realistic than most others? You're not seeing any six fingered hands anywhere.

我认为这是一个非常复杂的情况，因为一方面，AI生成的视频确实让更多以前无法表达自我的人有了发声的机会。他们过去缺乏工具，或者工具使用门槛极高。我觉得这非常酷，也极具力量。但另一方面，正如我常说的，人本身并不坏。

I think it's a really complicated situation because on the one hand, it is true that AI generated video lets a lot more people express themselves who couldn't before. They didn't have the tools or the tools were super hard to use. And I think that's really cool. That's really powerful. And on the other hand, like, I always say people are not bad.

坏的是激励机制。当前我们身处互联网的激励生态系统中，疯狂攫取注意力成为主要的盈利手段。可以预见的是，有人会用它来深度表达自我，这很棒；但也有人会用它来博取关注并优化这种效果。而作为平台的OpenAI，同样有获取注意力、提高用户粘性以增加用户的动机。

Incentives are bad. Like, on the other hand, we're in this incentive ecosystem of the Internet right now where there's kind of like rampant attention capture as the primary way of making money off of things. And what I would expect is some people will use it to really deeply express themselves and it's going to be really cool. And other people will use it in order to capture attention and optimize for that. And OpenAI, as the platform, also has an incentive toward capturing attention and increasing engagement so that they have more users.

因此我认为Sora这项视频生成技术本身非常非常酷。虽然它存在虚假信息问题，我们需要通过水印等技术手段来验证真实性——这个问题需要另寻解决方案。但根本问题在于，这项技术被投放到了一个激励机制严重非人化的环境中，作为人类，我们正在丧失对自身注意力的掌控权。

And so I think that the technology itself, Sora, generating video is like really, really cool. And yeah, it has misinformation problems. We have to figure out how to do like watermarking or something to verify the reality of something. I think that has to be solved a different way. But the problem with it is that it's being launched into an environment that has rampantly inhumane, I think, incentives where as humans we are losing control over our attention.

这真的很糟糕。我觉得没人愿意生活在这样的未来里。

And that really sucks. Like, don't think that's a future we wanna live in.

水印问题也很有意思，我已经看到大量工具在扩散——无论是去除水印的教程、人们自编的去水印代码，还是使用魔术橡皮擦类工具。在其他社交应用上，我看到很多这类未标注Sora生成的视频。某种程度上，OpenAI对视频离开平台后的用途无需负责；但从另一角度看，技术毕竟是他们开发的。现在连美国总统都在分享大量AI生成视频，我不禁想到当下次选举周期来临时，随着技术进步，真假难辨的视频将如何影响一切。

It's also interesting because the watermark aspect of it all, there have already been a ton of tools proliferating that I've seen, whether it's tutorials for removing the watermark, people coding their own ways to remove the watermark, or using, like, magic eraser type tools to remove it. I've seen a bunch of these types of videos on other social media apps with no reference to it being created with Sora. And in some ways, OpenAI isn't responsible for what people do once the video leaves the platform. But in another way, they did make the technology, and we're seeing the president of The United States share a lot of AI generated videos. So I'm wondering when we get into another election cycle and it's hard to tell what's real and what's not, how this is going to affect everything just as this the tech becomes more and more advanced.

我曾经自豪于总能识别AI生成视频，其实大家都能。但现在情况变得棘手多了。

I used to pride myself on being able to always tell when something was an AI generated video. I mean, we all could. Now it's a little bit more thorny.

是啊，如今确实很难分辨。正如你所说，在当前技术生态中，我们放弃了对所建技术的责任。我认为这不是技术构建者应有的健康道德哲学。作为技术人员，我们理应对所创技术的社会影响承担伦理和道德责任。

Yeah. It's really hard to tell these days. I I think to your point, the current technology ecosystem, we relinquish responsibility over the technologies that we build. And I think that's actually not a very healthy moral philosophy of technology builders. As technologists, I believe that we should be ethically, morally responsible for the way that what we build impacts society.

你说这在某种程度上并非睁眼可见的责任，但我认为某种程度上确实是。就像我们要对自己创造的内容和允许他人做的事情负责。关于你提到的水印去除问题，实际上我认为长期来看，我们需要在互联网信息和数据的信任与验证机制上另辟蹊径，只是目前我们尚未找到解决方案。

And you said in a way it's not open eye eyes responsibility, but I think in a way it is. And like we are responsible for what we create and what we allow people to do. To your point about watermark removal, I actually think longer term we need a different mechanism for trust and verification on the internet of information and of data, and we just haven't figured that out yet.

是的。基于此，你认为肖像权法、版权法是否足以应对AI生成的视频和图像？我们是否需要彻底更新对知识产权的理解，以适应这项技术的发展？

Yeah. Based on that, do you think likeness laws, copyright are equipped enough to handle AI generated video and images? Are we gonna need to update our entire conception of intellectual property to figure out how this tech fits in?

我确实认为我们需要更新对知识产权的理解。

I do think we need to update our conception of intellectual property.

没错。我同意你的观点。思考各方责任归属是件很有意思的事。是的，未来几周、几个月乃至几年里，我们将持续应对这类问题。现在我们需要短暂休息一下。

Yeah. I I agree with you. It's interesting to think about who's responsible for what here. And, yeah, we're gonna be dealing with a lot of these questions over the next few weeks, months, years. We need to take another quick break.

稍后马上回来。

We'll be right back.

若能终止现状会怎样？LPL金融为您扫清障碍，提供助力前行的服务。作为理财顾问，您是否想过既能享有更多自由又能获得更强支持？准备投资了吗？您是否渴望拥有一位真正懂您的顾问？

What if you could make that stop? With LPL Financial, we remove the things holding you back and provide the services to help push you forward. If you're a financial advisor, what if you can have more freedom but also more support? Ready to invest? What if you could have an advisor that really understood you?

关乎您的财务、事业与未来，在LPL金融，我们坚信唯一的问题应该是：若您能做到，会怎样？

When it comes to your finances, your business, your future, at LPL Financial, we believe the only question should be, what if you could?

付费广告声明：Kendrick并非LPL金融有限公司客户，其推广LPL服务收取报酬。投资涉及风险，包括本金潜在损失。LPL金融有限公司是FINRA/SIPC成员。

Paid advertisement and Kendrick is not a client of LPL Financial LLC and receives compensation to promote LPL. Investing involves risk, including potential loss of principal LPL Financial LLC member Finra's IPC.

本期节目由Agency赞助。当今谈论AI时，我们指的并非孤立运行的单一智能体，而是多个AI代理无需人工干预的协同工作。Agency（拼写为a-g-n-t-c-y）致力于打破AI代理间的信息孤岛，使其能安全地跨框架发现、连接与协作。通过Agency，您的组织将获得开放标准化工具和无缝集成方案，包括强大的身份管理系统，助您跨平台实现识别、认证与交互。

Support for this show comes from agency. These days, when we talk about AI, we're not talking about one isolated agent or system working alone. We're talking about multiple AI agents working at once without human intervention. Agency, that's a g n t c y, is working to ensure AI agents aren't siloed off from one another, and instead are able to securely discover, connect, and work across any framework. With Agency, your organization gains open, standardized tools and seamless integration That includes robust identity management to help you identify, authenticate, and interact across any platform.

Agency正引领可信身份与访问管理标准的建立，让您能自信部署多代理系统。该项目已与思科、戴尔科技、谷歌云、甲骨文、红帽等行业领袖合作，共同制定安全可扩展的AI基础设施标准。作为开源Linux项目，若您的企业准备迎接AgenTic AI未来，请访问agency.org探索应用场景。官网地址：agntcy.0rg。

Agency is leading the way in established trusted identity and access management, and empowers you to employ multi agent systems with confidence. It's already working with industry leaders like Cisco, Dell Technologies, Google Cloud, Oracle, Red Hat, and more to set the standard for secure, scalable AI infrastructure. Now, Agency is an open source Linux project. If your enterprise is ready for the future of AgenTic AI, visit agency.org to explore use cases now. That's agntcy.0rg.

与跑者竞速。与帆船竞速。与帆船竞速。

Race the runners. Race the sails. Race the sails.

船长，不明船只正在接近。完毕。

Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over.

收到。等等...那是企业销售解决方案？触达销售专业人士，而非职业水手。通过领英广告，您可按行业、职位等精准定向目标人群。

Roger. Wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution? Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title, and more.

立即开始转化您的B2B受众。首期广告投放满250美元，即可获赠下期250美元信用额度。立即登录LinkedIn.com/campaign参与。条款与条件适用。

Start converting your b two b audience today. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Get started today at LinkedIn dot com slash campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

我们再次连线MBU首席执行官Kanjoon Q。在休息前，我们讨论了Sora、超逼真AI生成视频在现代社交媒体上意外释放的后果，以及尽管有防护措施，这类技术带来的影响。现在我想转向本周最后一个要讨论的重要话题：AI如何改变企业与求职者之间的关系，许多求职者如今正面临越来越艰难的挑战，试图突破自动化系统的筛选以获得面试机会。让我们进入本周第三个故事——招聘者使用AI筛选简历，而申请人试图欺骗系统。《纽约时报》对此进行了报道。

We're back with MBU CEO, Kanjoon Q. Before the break, we were discussing Sora, the unintended consequences of unleashing ultra realistic AI generated video across modern social media and the implications of technology like this despite guardrails. Now I wanna turn to the last big story of the week that we'll discuss, how AI is transforming the relationship between companies and job seekers, many of whom are now facing an increasingly uphill battle trying to break through automated systems to land an interview. Let's move into our third story of the week, which is recruiters using AI to scan resumes and applicants trying to trick the system. The New York Times posted a story about this.

当然，人们对AI筛选及其可能从住房到招聘等方方面面产生的影响存在诸多担忧。今天的报道讲述了作为企业招聘筛选支柱的AI如何给求职者施加各种压力，迫使他们试图钻系统空子，确保简历被看到而不至于石沉大海，从而获得面试机会。报道开篇的细节相当引人注目：英国一位招聘人员发现，有位申请者用不同字体颜色在简历中隐藏了对聊天GPT的指令，要求将其选为 exceptionally well qualified（特别符合条件）的候选人。你认为这些对AI筛选的担忧合理吗？

There's a lot of concern about AI screening and how it might be factoring into everything from housing to hiring, of course. And this story today was about how AI, now a pillar of corporate job screening, has put all kinds of pressure on job seekers to try to game the system, making sure their resume is seen and not just going into a black hole so they can land an interview. And the opening detail of the story is pretty remarkable. It's about a recruiter in The UK who found that one applicant was hiding instructions for chatty PT on his resume in a different font color, instructing it to select him as an exceptionally well qualified candidate. Do you think these concerns about AI screening are are justified?

你对这一切怎么看？

And what do you make of all this?

这实际上是AI调解人际关系的一个完美案例。我们正在进入一个由算法和AI（我将两者混用）越来越多地决定我们生活的世界——能否获得工作、抵押贷款、某项批准或假释资格等等。在这些领域，算法正在做决定。当人类对此没有追索权时，这种情况就是你会看到的典型案例。当受算法决策影响的人无法申诉时，就会出现这种军备竞赛效应。

So this is actually a perfect example of when AI mediates human relationships. So we're going into a world where algorithms, AI, I use them interchangeably, AI and algorithms are making more and more decisions about our lives, whether we get a job or whether we get our mortgage or whether we get approved for something or prisoner racism. There's all of these different things where the algorithm is making the decision. And this is like a perfect example of what you'll see in that situation when there's no recourse for the human. So when there's no recourse for the person who's being affected by the algorithmic decision we will see these arms race effects.

是的，我认为这本质上...让我想想，我上一家公司其实开发过机器学习招聘初创产品，发现当AI系统是黑箱时，人们就会试图操纵它们。最终我认为真正的解决方案在于：算法创建者与所谓'用户'之间更好的激励协调，以及保护人们的法律。这关乎权力，某种程度上也关乎控制。当人类做决定时，你通常可以申诉说'嘿，我觉得你误解了'之类。但目前我们的法律基础设施对算法的覆盖很不完善。

And so yeah I think this is basically, let's see, I actually built an ML recruiting startup in my last company and saw that like when AI systems are black boxes people will try to game them. And ultimately I think the real solution is like better incentive alignment between the creators of the algorithm and also the users, quote unquote, and also laws that are laws that protect people. It's about power and, in a way, about control. Like when you have a human making these decisions, you can generally appeal like, hey, I think you misunderstood or something like that. But right now, our legal infrastructure doesn't cover algorithms very well.

我们几乎没有法律来规范算法决策如何影响人们。当人类做影响他人的决策时，我们确实有反歧视等法律约束。其中部分法律也适用于算法决策，但远不完善。在Imbue内部，我们有个概念叫'法外之地'——就像昔日的西部荒野，没有多少法律约束，你可以抢银行不受惩罚，为所欲为。这对创新、尝试和自由很有利...

Like, we don't have very many laws that talk about how should we govern the way that algorithmic decision making affects people. When we have people making decisions that affect people, we do have laws that govern like discrimination and things like that. And some of those laws also cover algorithmic decisions, but it's not complete by any means. And internally at Imbue, we have this notion we call lawless spaces, where a space is lawless if there are not many laws, like the Wild West back in the day, where you could, like, go, you know, steal money from a bank and not get punished, or you could do whatever you wanted. And that's great for innovation and trying things and freedom.

但当某个领域处于法外状态时，你进入这个空间被敲了闷棍，却无处申诉。现在的数字世界和互联网某种程度上就是法外之地。我们的法律尚未跟上技术进步的步伐。这就是个典型案例。

But when it's lawless, then, like, you go into this lawless space, you get bonked on the head, there's no recourse. And so the digital world right now and the Internet is kind of a lawless space. Our laws haven't really caught up to the pace of technological improvement. So this is a good example of that.

我很高兴你提到这一点，因为长期以来，AI被用于抵押贷款算法、政府机构、面部识别等几乎所有领域，却不成比例地影响了弱势群体和少数族裔。由于有害的连锁反应，它受到了大量审查。警方使用AI已导致大量错误逮捕。在加州，选民否决了一项计划。

I'm really glad you brought that up because for as long as AI has been used for any number of things like mortgage algorithms, government agencies, facial recognition, pretty much anything. It's disproportionately affected vulnerable communities, minorities. It's faced a lot of scrutiny due to harmful ripple effects. Police use of AI has led to a ton of wrongful arrests. In California, voters rejected a plan.

我记得曾提议用算法取代该州的保释制度，但因担忧这会加剧偏见而被否决——这确实会发生。所以思考法律空白地带以及监管规则如何尚未跟上这项技术发展很有意思。我认为我们许多人正在为此付出代价。

I remember to replace the state's bail system with an algorithm because of concerns that would increase bias, it definitely would have. So it it is interesting to think about lawless spaces and how regulation and rules just haven't quite caught up with this technology yet. And I think a lot of us are paying the price.

完全正确。

That's exactly right.

现在这可能显而易见，但你认为为什么AI最初会被引入招聘等领域？这是人们想解决一个本不存在的问题的领域吗？或许AI根本不该用在这方面？还是你认为它确实有价值？

This may seem obvious now, but why do you think we're seeing AI injected into areas like hiring and recruiting in the first place? Is this just one of those areas where people wanna solve a problem that doesn't really exist and and maybe AI would be better used not in this area at all? Or do you think there's some value to it?

我认为AI作为智能技术是如此基础，它将渗透所有领域。它将重塑我们在数字世界的一切行为，甚至通过机器人技术影响物理世界。本质上，AI正试图尽可能接近地复制人类智能。而目前社会正是依靠人类完成诸多事务。

I think AI is so fundamental a technology. It is intelligence that it will be in every space. It will shape everything, how we do everything in the digital world and maybe even sometimes in the physical world with robotics. Fundamentally, AI is trying to replicate human intelligence as close as we can. And right now as a society we use humans to do lots of things, right?

就像人类是社会经济中有用的生产工具。因此，AI也将成为未来主要的生产手段之一——AI与软件本质相同，我交替使用这两个词。这意味着当我们构想未来时，AI将重塑商业决策和人类决策，它将介入所有这些领域。

Like humans are useful means of production for society economically. And so because of that, AI will also become, will be one of the major means of production in the future, AI and software. I use them interchangeably because AI just is software. And so, what that means is that when we think about the future that we're building, AI is going to reshape business decision making, human decision making. It's going to be involved in all of this stuff.

正因如此，我们需要重新思考许多事情。传统软件只是自动化流程、实现人际沟通或全球信息传递，而AI不仅是传递信息或自动化硬编码事务——它就是智能本身，是在复制智能。

And because of that, we actually need to rethink a lot of things. Like, when we just built software, software like automates some processes and it lets us communicate with people and like sends information across the world and things like that. But AI is not just sending information or automating like really hard coded things. It's like it is intelligence. It's replicating intelligence.

因此，当涉及不仅仅是我们的法律，还包括软件运作、互联网运作的基础设施，以及我们对这一切运作方式的期待时，我认为实际上需要改变许多事情，才能让我们获得想要的世界，而不是成为这些技术的受害者。比如，我们之前讨论过的一个例子，我稍微提到过，软件应该在使用点可修改。这意味着什么？意味着人工智能和软件需要对其影响的人群来说，既是可解释的，又是可控制的。以招聘决策为例，我需要能够了解这些决策是如何做出的，也需要能够改变这些决策的生成方式。

And so when it comes to not just our laws, but our infrastructure for how software works, how the Internet works, like our expectations of how all this stuff works, I actually think there needs to be a lot of things that change in order for us to get the world that we want and not be victims of this technology. And so, like, one example of a type of thing earlier we talked about, I talked a little bit about, oh, software should be modifiable at the point of use. And what does that mean? It means, like, AI and software needs to be both explainable and controllable by the people it affects. And to this point about like recruiting decision making, like I need to be able to like know how these decisions are being made and I need to be able to change how these decisions are being made.

我们日常都会经历的一个更简单的例子是通知或社交媒体推送。我们既不知道决定我们接收哪些通知的机制是如何运作的，也无力改变推送内容，除了通过点赞、点踩或将其丢进一个黑箱。结果就是，我们最终得到的算法决策往往并非我们所愿。我常说，社交媒体推送是第一个AI代理，在某种程度上，它已经是一个失控的AI代理。

A simpler example that we all experience day to day is notifications or our social media feeds. We neither know how those decisions are made about what notifications we get nor do we have any power to change the feeds except by upvoting and downvoting things and tossing stuff into a black box. And so as a result, we don't end up getting the decisions that we wanted from these algorithms. I always say, like, social media feeds are the first AI agent. And it is a runaway AI agent in a way.

它正在以未必符合我们意愿的方式改变我们的生活，并代表我们做出决策。因此，我认为未来大多数软件开源化至关重要，让每个人都能获取源代码，并通过自然语言使用代理进行符合直觉的修改。在mView，我们正在开发一个名为'共同源代码'的项目。目前我们有开源模式，依赖志愿者无偿贡献；

It's like changing our lives and making decisions on our behalf in a way that isn't necessarily what we want. So I actually think like going into the future, it's important for most software to be open source. And for each individual person to be able to take the source code and to like use an agent to like modify it using natural language in a way that feels more intuitive to us. And at mView it's something that we're working on, we call it common source. Right now we have open source where like people, volunteers make stuff for free.

另一方面则是闭源模式，企业利用志愿者构建的这些免费软件获利却不给予回报。我们需要一种中间形态——既能将软件分发给他人并保持开源，让用户可修改，又能从中盈利。但这种模式目前并不存在。这正说明我们需要重塑当前世界的技术基础设施、支付体系、经济结构和政策框架，使其适应AI存在的世界，让我们能过上理想的生活。

And then the other other side we have closed source where like enterprises use all of this free software that has been built by volunteers and make money off of it but don't pay the volunteers. And there has to be something in the middle where you can ship your software to other people, let it be open source so that the users, your users, can change it, but you still get to make money off of it. But that doesn't exist today. And so this is an example of, like, needing to reshape the technical infrastructure, the payments infrastructure, the economic infrastructure, and policy infrastructure that are that, like, operates our world today to make it suitable for a world in which AI exists so that we can live the lives we want.

关于'共同源代码'的观点非常有趣，我们稍后得详细聊聊。回到简历筛选问题，这种技术可能出错的路径很明显。AI在筛选求职者时确实总是带着各种隐性偏见，这涉及劳动法和反歧视法。我记得多年前亚马逊就弃用过一款工具，它通过分析十年间提交的简历模式来评估申请人，

That's really interesting about Common Source. So we'll have to chat about that later. Back to the resume thing, it's obviously pretty clear how this can go wrong. AI can come with and does come with actually always all sorts of implicit bias baked in when screening job candidates and considering labor and discrimination laws. I even remember years ago, Amazon scrapped one of its tools that was trained to vet applicants by observing patterns and resumes submitted over a ten year period.

最终该系统自学认为男性候选人更优，会惩罚包含'女性'字眼的简历，比如女子学院或某些社团。他们最终废弃了这个系统，但谁知道此前产生了多少连锁反应。有些公司使用这类工具是因为它们有时能减少偏见——通常会匿名处理姓名或其他简历信息，试图创造公平竞争环境。

And eventually, it taught itself that male candidates were preferable. It penalized resumes that had the word women's in it, like, I think women's colleges or certain clubs. They eventually, of course, scrapped the system, but, you know, who knows how many ripple effects it had before then. And so I think some companies use these types of tools because it can help with bias sometimes. A lot of times it'll anonymize names or other aspects of a resume to ideally put people on an equal playing field.

但另一方面，它又延续了大量我们日常所见的偏见。那么你如何看待这项技术在招聘中潜在的益处与陷阱？如你所言，这似乎不可避免，每个领域都在应用。但确实，过去十年我们已经目睹了大量潜在障碍。

But in other ways, it's perpetuating a ton of the biases we see every day. So what do you make of the potential benefits and the potential pitfalls of this technology being used in hiring? Like you mentioned, it's kind of inevitable, I guess. It's it's in every sector. But, yeah, it just seems like there's a lot of a lot of potential obstacles that we've been seeing for, like, ten years.

我认为这正是为什么这些系统需要更具可解释性和可控性很重要的一部分原因，理想情况下，你可以看到决策过程中发生了什么，并且能够改变它。现在的情况有点像是一个带有某些强化循环的黑箱。你只能回答是或否，却不知道黑箱在学习什么，开始关注哪些方面。我认为更通用的模型实际上可能解决部分这个问题。

I think this is part of why it's important for these systems to be more explainable and controllable, where ideally you could, like, see what's happening in the decisions and, like, be able to change it. Today, it's kind of like a black box with some reinforcement loops. Like, you're like, yes, no, yes, no. And then you don't know what the black box is learning and what it's starting to index on. I think more general models might actually solve some of this problem.

模型越通用，它对世界的理解就越深，就越能意识到：嘿，我们不应该这样优化——比如我们不应该针对少数群体进行优化。或者，也许我们可以标记出是否最终在针对少数群体优化。又或者我们可以在最后分析数据，查看发生了什么。因此我实际上认为，我们可以利用这些模型做得更好——乐观的看法是，由于这些模型赋予我们更强的智能分析能力，可以用来分析招聘等场景中算法的影响，并按照我们的意愿调整它们。这是我设想的一个我们掌控AI、引导它产生符合我们意图结果的世界。

Like, the more general the model is, the more it understands about the world, the more it understands like, hey, we shouldn't be optimizing for this like we shouldn't be optimizing against minorities. Or, oh, maybe we could flag if we are ending up optimizing against minorities. Or maybe we could analyze the data at the end and take a look and see what's happening. And so I actually think that we can use these models to make much better like, you know, the optimistic take is that we can use these models because they give us a lot more intelligence capability to analyze the effects of what's going on in, say, hiring and what's going on with these algorithms and to change them to our liking. And this is kind of a world, you know, I I imagine where we are controlling the AI and we are directing it to create the kind of outcomes that we wanna see that's more in line with our intentions.

我不认为亚马逊有人蓄意歧视女性，但他们当时很难察觉这个问题。最终导致了这样的结果。但我们可以利用AI建立更好的监测机制，真正变得更明智。这才是当前真正的机遇所在。

I don't think anyone's intending to bias against women at Amazon, but they couldn't see it very well. And so that ended up happening. But we could use AI to have better monitoring to become wiser really. And that's really the opportunity here.

这确实很有道理。我听说有些公司如果发现求职者简历中藏着给聊天机器人的秘密指令，或是用白色字体列出仅供AI招聘系统查看的技能列表，就会自动降权或取消资格。你觉得当公司或招聘方自己也使用类似策略筛选申请人时，他们看不起使用这类战术的人公平吗？

That makes a lot of sense actually. Sometimes companies will, I've heard, automatically downvote or disqualify someone if they do find secret instructions for a chatbot hidden in someone's resume or a white font of skills listed like at the bottom, only meant to be seen by AI recruiting system. Do you think it's fair for companies or recruiters to look down on people that use those types of tactics when at the same time they're using they're using similar tactics to screen applicants?

我认为我们正处在一场没有赢家的博弈中。这就像消耗战——是求职者向模型输入更多信息，还是模型更快识破求职者的策略？最终我们需要做的是跳出这种消耗战的困境。

I think we're in a game where no one's winning right now. It's like this war of attrition. You know? Does the job seeker get more information into the model, or does the model, like, catch that job seekers, take information faster? Ultimately, think we need where the value is is to get out of this war of attrition.

但很难知道具体该怎么做。部分原因是当前就业机会不多，可能人们没有掌握正确的技能提升方式。或许我们应该把更多精力投入到帮助人们提升技能，教授他们所需的技能。而借助AI系统，有很多创新方法可以让人快速学习新事物。

And it's hard to know how to do that. You know, part of what's happening is, you know, there aren't that many like, it's hard to find jobs right now. Maybe people aren't upskilled in the in the right ways. And so maybe we could direct more of our energy and attention toward upskilling people and trying to teach them how to have the skills that are needed. And with AI systems, there are a lot of creative ways to use AI systems to learn really fast, learn new things really fast.

这也关系到我们对AI的思考方式——与其让别人用AI自动化取代我们的工作（如今确实有人能做到），还存在另一个可能性：我们可以用AI自动化取代自己的工作。这种感觉其实好得多，也很棒。比如我自己就会编写小脚本和智能体，把日常必须处理的流程自动化。这意味着我们将生活在一个充满微型AI系统的世界里，这些系统由我们创建并控制工作流程，最终由我们决定是否要自动化某项任务。

This also goes to how we think about AI where, like, instead of letting AI automate us out of a job, like somebody else can automate us out of a job today, there is an alternate world where we can use AI to automate ourselves out of our jobs. And that actually feels a lot better and is awesome. Like, I use my agents you know, I make I make little scripts and agents to, like, automate myself out of some of the processes that I'm I have to do every day. And what that means is a world in which we get all these, like, tiny AI systems that are embedded throughout our lives that we're creating and we're controlling those workflows. And so then we are the ones who get to decide, like, oh, do I want to automate this?

我是否想以这种方式改变？通过这种方式，AI可以更成为我们是谁以及我们试图做什么的表达，而不是像一种由他人用来自动化我们的集中化事物。因此，我认为我持这样的哲学观点：这场求职者与招聘者之间的斗争，或者我们将在各种不同地方看到的这些斗争，它们注定会发生。绕过这些斗争的方法是尝试更多地解决根本问题，并通过赋予每个人更多机会、表达自我的能力以及以他们自己的方式获得更多经济机会，通过用AI赋能他们。

Do I wanna change this in in this way? And in that way, like, AI can become more an expression of who we are and what we're trying to do as opposed to, like, a centralized thing that's, like, someone else is using to automate us. And so I think I'm I'm of the philosophy that this war, job seeker recruiter fight or we're gonna see these fights in all sorts of different places. These fights are they're just gonna happen. And the way to get around them is to try to solve the underlying problems more and to kind of empower each individual to have more opportunity and to be able to express themselves and to have more economic opportunity in their own way by empowering them with AI.

是的。我认为我们会看到这种斗争频繁发生。关于这种情况，我想问你的最后一件事是我们看到这种紧张关系的另一个领域，那就是AI面试。你知道，我有多个朋友跟我聊过他们与AI面试的经历，而且《纽约时报》的报道也提到了这一点。使用AI筛选人似乎是一种日益增长的趋势。

Yeah. I think we are gonna see this fight happen a lot. And one last thing I wanted to ask you about this situation is another kind of area we're seeing this tension happen, which is AI interviews. You know, I've had multiple friends talk to me about their experiences with AI interviews, and, you know, the New York Times story included that too. It seems to be an increasing trend to kind of screen people using AI.

基本上，这就像录制。我曾经是一名演员，某种程度上就像录制自我试镜带，当你发送自己的视频参加试镜时。但不同的是，你不是在自言自语，而是在与一个AI系统对话，它会问你问题，然后有时奇怪地在之后肯定你。那么，你对这种趋势怎么看？这相当疯狂。

Basically, it's like a recording. I used to be an actress and it's kinda like recording a self tape in a way when you're sending in a video of yourself for an audition. But instead of, you know, you just talking to yourself, you're talking to an AI, system that is asking you questions and then weirdly sometimes affirming you afterward. So, yeah, what do you what do you make of that trend? It's pretty crazy.

是的。我认为这是AI加剧现有权力动态这一类别中的一种趋势。

Yeah. I think this is a trend in the in the category of kind of like AI exacerbating existing power dynamics.

没错。

Right.

在这种情况下，作为申请者，我的权力远少于招聘者或可能雇佣我的公司。因此，当我们谈论公平时，感觉不公平的是什么？感觉不公平的是那些已经被剥夺权力的人被进一步剥夺权力。这种自动化的视频筛选，对公司来说花费的时间更少，但对申请者来说，通过每一个AI视频公司筛选花费的时间却一样多。因此，这种方式存在一种权力差异，作为一个不能在申请中使用AI的人，如果我需要以人类身份录制自己而不能使用AI，那么我就无法像公司那样规模化自己。

Where, you know, I as the applicant have a lot less power than the recruiter or the company that is potentially going to hire me. And so it does feel, you know, when we talk about fairness, like what is it that feels unfair? What feels unfair is people who are already disempowered being more disempowered. And this kind of automated video screening, like, that takes less time on the company side, but it takes just as much time on the applicant side to, like, go through every AI video company screening. And so in this way, there's this like power differential where as a person who's not able to use AI in my application if I need to record myself as a human and I can't use AI, then I can't scale myself in the way that the company was able to scale itself.

这就是为什么我不断回到去中心化、让人们能够创建自己的AI代理、让人们能够创建软件、开源等话题。所有这些都关于我们如何赋予人们规模化自己的能力，并使用AI系统给予他们更多权力。世界上已经有足够多的这种权力动态差异。而且我们已经处于一个日益不平衡的权力差异曲线中。因此，我们需要努力对抗这种情况，真正尝试平衡权力动态，因为AI所做和将做的基本事情是它会赋予你权力。

And that's why I keep going back to, like, decentralizing, enabling people to create their own AI agents, enabling people to create software, common source. Like, all of these things are about how do we give people the ability to scale themselves and use AI systems to give them more power. There are already enough of these power dynamic differentials in the world. And we're already in a increasingly, you know, lopsided power differential curve. And so we need efforts that push against that and really try to flatten the power dynamics because the fundamental thing that AI does and will do is it will give you power.

它就像一种力量源泉。它能扩展许多事物，自动化许多流程，理解大量信息，处理海量数据并采取行动。

It's like a way it's a source of power. It scales a bunch of things. It automates a bunch of things. It understands a bunch of things. It can process tons of information and can take actions.

这些都是实实在在的力量来源。正因如此，我们需要找到方法，将更多这种力量赋予当今弱势群体，平衡权力格局。我认为我们正面临一个机遇窗口期——趁尚未像过去十年那样形成固化的权力结构前采取行动。从根本上说，这才是消除我们对当前局势不适感的关键。你所感受到的异样是真实存在的。

Those are literal sources of power. And because of that, what we need is a way to give more of that power to people who have less power today and to kind of equalize the power dynamic. And there's an opportunity to I think we have this, like, window of opportunity to do that today before we end up with, like, lots of lock in again, just like as happened in the last 10. That's fundamentally, I think, the thing that needs to happen in order for us to see in order for us to stop feeling so weird about what's happening. I think the weirdness that you're feeling is real.

这种异样感指向一个真实的道德困境——某种明显的不公平感，某种伦理层面的异常。我认为这些感受都是真实的信号，它们直指权力失衡问题。

It's pointing at a real, like, moral dilemma that feels really strange. Like, this doesn't feel fair. There's something ethically weird going on. And I think those are real signals that we're getting. And those signals point at this power differential problem.

没错。关于权力动态的表述太精准了。六年前我刚成为AI记者时，这个头衔本身就足够特别。但现在人人都自称AI记者，就像自称商业记者一样普遍。

Right. Yeah. I really I'm so glad you put it that way about the paradynamics because, you know, that's when people ask me what I focus on as an AI reporter, you know, six years ago when I started on the beat, I could just say I was an AI reporter and that was niche enough. But now everyone's an AI reporter. It's kind of the same as saying you're a business reporter.

万物皆商业，万物皆AI。现在我会强调自己专注于追踪行业内部权力格局的变迁，以及这些系统、其领导者与社会、受系统影响人群之间的互动关系。随着时间推移，这必将成为愈发重要且频繁讨论的话题。非常感谢您抽出时间参与对话。

It's everything is business. Everything is AI. Now I say that I focus a lot on the shifting power dynamics, within both the industry and how these systems and the people that lead them relate to society and the people that the systems are affecting. So, yeah, it's definitely gonna be a more and more important and more talked about topic as the months and years go on. But, yeah, thank you so much for your time and for coming on.

很高兴我们能深入探讨这些议题。

I'm really glad we got to talk about all this.

我也同样欣慰。特别庆幸我们聚焦了权力动态这个话题。最后还想补充一点：您能关注这个维度真是太好了。

Yeah. Me too. I'm glad we got to talk about the power dynamics. I guess one more thing on that on the power dynamics. I'm really glad that that's what you're thinking about.

我认为人们常常从立法角度思考权力动态，但实际上，我们可以通过技术构建方式从根本上赋予或削弱权力，就像我之前提到的超级计算机类比。在讨论OpenAI开发者日、这些平台、Sora及其发展时，我认为我们可以改变技术构建方式及其发布环境，从而真正分配权力并改变权力格局。这确实是当前的机遇所在，但需要我们发挥创造力。

And I think that often people think about the power dynamics in terms of, oh, what laws can we enact? But I actually think that we can build the technology in ways that are fundamentally more empowering and fundamentally less empowering, just like the supercomputer analogy I gave before. And so when we were talking about OpenAI Dev Day and these platforms and Sora and what's happening, like, I think that there are things that we can change about how we build these technologies and the the, like, environment that they're released into that would actually distribute power and change the power dynamics. And so that's that's, I think, really the opportunity there, but we have to get creative.

感谢参与。很高兴我们能进行这次对话

Thanks for coming on. I'm really glad we got to have this

是的，我也是。

Yeah. Same.

我要感谢Kenjun抽空接受采访，也感谢各位听众。希望你们喜欢本期节目。如果想分享对这期节目的看法或建议其他话题，欢迎来信。邮箱是decoder@theverge.com，我们每封邮件都会阅读。

I'd like to thank Kenjun for taking time to speak with me, and thank you for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you'd like to let us know what you thought about this show or what else you'd like us to cover, drop us a line. You can email us at decoder at the verge. We really do read every email.

或者直接在X、Blue Sky或Threads上联系我，所有平台我的账号都是Hayden Field。Decoder还有TikTok、Instagram和新的YouTube频道，请关注decoder pod，内容非常有趣。

Or hit me up directly on x, blue sky, or threads. I'm at Hayden Field on all platforms. Decoder also has a TikTok and Instagram and now also a YouTube channel. Check those out at decoder pod. They're a blast.

如果喜欢Decoder，请分享给朋友并在你获取播客的平台订阅。若尚未订阅The Verge，请考虑支持。Decoder由The Verge制作，属于Vox Media播客网络。制作人是Kate Cox和Nick Statt，本期由Xander Adams编辑。

If you like decoder, please share it with your friends and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you haven't already, please consider subscribing to The Verge. Decoder is a production of The Verge and is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams.

Decoder主题音乐由Break Master Cylinder创作。下次见。

The Decoder music is by Break Master Cylinder. See you next time.

水星银行深知，对创业者而言，每一笔财务操作都意义非凡。国际汇款意味着能与各大洲最优秀的承包商合作，开业首日获得信用卡意味着次日就能启动广告宣传，而商业贷款则能为黑色星期五备足库存。正因如此，水星银行提供一站式多功能金融服务，让您轻松掌控资金运作。登录mercury.com了解更多详情。

Mercury knows that to an entrepreneur, every financial move means more. An international wire means working with the best contractors on any continent. A credit card on day one means creating an ad campaign on day two, and a business loan means loading up on inventory for Black Friday. That's why Mercury offers banking that does more all in one place so that doing just about anything with your money feels effortless. Visit mercury.com to learn more.

水星是金融科技公司而非银行，银行服务由Choice金融集团和FDIC成员Evolve银行与信托公司提供。

Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group column NA and Evolve Bank and Trust members FDIC.

本节目由梅西百货赞助。金秋将至，叠穿季节随之而来。梅西百货秋季时尚指南助您掌握最新潮流与必备单品。尝试INC品牌的透视上装打造浪漫造型，或混搭卡尔·拉格斐巴黎系列的仿皮草飞行员夹克增添趣味。无论您钟情何种风格，都能在梅西秋季时尚指南中找到完美搭配。

Support for this show comes from Macy's. Fall is right around the corner, and that means layering season is too. Macy's fall fashion guide can help you get a pulse on all the latest trends and must haves. Try a romantic look with a sheer top from INC, or mix it up with some fun like a faux fur bomber jacket from Karl Lagerfeld Paris. No matter your vibe, you can explore the Macy's fall fashion guide and find the perfect look for you.

欢迎前往实体店或macys.com官网选购。

Shop in store or online at macys.com.

俗话说每日一苹果，医生远离我。何不试试格鲁恩公司限量版青苹果维生素软糖包？这不仅是复合维生素、绿色软糖或益生元，更是集多重营养于一身的健康零食，而且美味加分。

They say an apple a day keeps the doctor away. Well, why not make it a limited edition Groony Smith Apple Vitamin Snack Pack from Groon's? This isn't a multivitamin, a greens gummy, or a prebiotic. It's all of those things and then some. And bonus, it tastes great.

所有格鲁恩每日软糖包均为纯素无坚果麸质配方，富含20多种维生素矿物质。限量版青苹果格鲁恩软糖仅在十月期间发售，备货从速以免售罄。登录gruns.c0并使用优惠码Vox可享最高52%折扣。

All Gruuns Daily Gummy Snack Packs are vegan, nut gluten free, and packed with more than 20 vitamins and minerals. Grab your limited edition Groony Smith Apple Gruuns available only through October. Stock up because they will sell out. Get up to 52% off when you go to gruns.c0 and use the code Vox.