YouTube首席产品官Neal Mohan：算法、商业化与内容创作者的未来

我们的目标是让Shorts内容无论以何种形式都能轻松便捷地提供给用户。

Our goal there is to make it so that shorts content, whatever form is easily and readily available to our users.

这就是为什么你们会在首页动态中直接看到Shorts内容架。

That's why you see the short shelf right on the home feed.

这也是为什么你们能看到那个固定存在的Shorts标签页。

It's also why you see the tab that's there, the permanence of that, that shorts tab.

这就是我们从用户角度出发的考量。

So that's how we look at it from a user standpoint.

从创作者角度来看，我认为这些趋势正在定期发生变化。

From a creator standpoint, I mean, I think what I'll tell you is that those trends are changing on a regular basis.

首先不仅是新创作者数量，还有那些缩减内容并专门为我们平台制作原创Shorts的创作者数量。

The amount of a, first of all, new creators, but also creators that are cutting back and producing original Shorts on our platform.

这个数字正在以周为单位持续增长。

That number is going up into the right on a week on week basis.

因此这是我们关注的另一组指标，不仅是观众数据，还包括它的易用性、趣味性和影响力。

And so that is another set of metrics that we look at, not just the viewer metrics, but also how easy, fun, kind of powerful it is.

这套工具是为我们的创作者准备的。

The tool set is for our creators.

正如我所说，我们已经在这条路上启程了。

And like I said, we've begun the journey there.

要知道，我们刚刚在七月的几周前才全球上线。

You know, we just launched globally just a couple of weeks ago in July.

因此还有许多工作要做，特别是在创作者方面，要让他们为YouTube制作原创内容变得更简单、更强大、更有趣。

So there's still a lot more to be done, especially on the creator side to make it so that it's easier and more powerful and even more fun for them to produce original content for YouTube.

但即便以我们目前的工具水平，这个数字仍在持续增长。

But even with where our tools are today, that number continues to grow.

当我说Instagram对此不满时，具体指的是他们公开宣布带水印的视频会比无水印视频获得更低的互动量——这实际上是在委婉地说：当你从TikTok导出带水印的视频，

When I say no Instagram is unhappy about it, what I mean specifically is they openly announced that videos with watermarks in them would get lower engagement than videos without watermarks, which is a very roundabout way of saying, hey, When you export a video from TikTok, it has a watermark.

如果你把它重新发布到Instagram，我们会降低它的曝光度。

And if you repurpose it to Instagram, we're gonna lower it its engagement.

你们考虑过采取类似措施吗？

Have you thought about similar moves?

我的意思是，我认为，迪勒，我再次给出的高层次答案是，首先，我们一直在对我们的推荐和排名算法做出决策、调整和更新，你知道，每个月都会进行多次，只是为了让它为我们的用户提供越来越好的体验。

I mean, I I think, again, the the the the high level answer I'll give you there, Dile, is that first of all, we make decisions and tweaks and updates to our recommendation and ranking algorithms all the time, multiple times, you know, as you know, multiple times a month, just to make it so that that works better and better for our users.

但我们有一套核心的北极星原则和指标来指导这一过程。

But we have a set of kind of core Northstar principles and metrics by which we govern that.

这些决策是由观众满意度、用户参与度、我们直接从观众那里获得的反馈以及应用中定期出现的小调查等因素驱动的。

And they are driven by things like viewer satisfaction, engagement from our viewers, the feedback that we get directly from our viewers and those little surveys that you see in the app on a regular basis.

这就是我们用来做出决策的视角，比如短视频的排名，就像我们对YouTube上所谓的传统视频所做的那样。

And that is the lens through which we will make decisions on things like ranking of shorts, just like we do for quote unquote traditional videos on YouTube.

特别是Instagram，他们非常明确地告诉创作者，使用他们的附加产品能提升整体互动。

The other thing is with Instagram particularly, they're very explicit with their creators that using their additional products boost their overall engagement.

所以他们之前有故事功能，使用故事能提升互动；现在又有了Reels，使用Reels也能提升互动。

So when they had stories using stories boosted your engagement, now they have reels using reels boost your engagement.

你们也有一系列类似的产品。

You have a similar set of products.

你们平台上也有相似（即便不是几乎完全重合）的创作者群体，他们已经习惯了这种模式。

You have a similar, if not almost nearly overlapping base of creators on your platform who are used to that kind of dynamic.

你是在对他们说，使用Shorts来提升整体参与度吗？

Are you saying to them, use Shorts to boost your overall engagement?

如果你不这样做，你的参与度就会下降吗？

And if you don't, your engagement will go down?

因为我经常从创作者那里听到这种动态，他们觉得必须扩展到应用的每个服务才能保持核心参与度。

Because I hear that dynamic from creators all the time that they feel like they have to expand into every service of the app to keep their core engagement high.

我们不会，我的意思是，我们不会用你所描述的那种明确方式谈论这个问题。

We're we don't, I mean, we don't talk about that in the explicit way that you're you're describing.

再次强调，我喜欢把这些回归到核心原则上来。

Again, I I like to keep tying these back to kind of what the core principles are.

我已经在用户端和创作者端给你举过例子了，我们的目标是为每位创作者提供发声的机会。

And I gave you examples of that on the user side, on the creator side, it's about our goal there is to give every creator a voice.

如果创作者想通过两小时关于他们热衷话题的纪录片来实现这一点，那么YouTube就应该是这样的平台。

If the creator wants to do that through a two hour documentary about a particular topic they're passionate about, then YouTube should be the place for that.

如果他们想通过15秒的Shorts视频混入他们最喜欢的音乐艺术家的热门歌曲来实现，也应该能够做到。

If they want to do that through a fifteen second short that mixes in their favorite, you know, hit from their favorite music artists, they should be able to do that.

我认为这就是我在YouTube工作的原因——我们支持创作者多样性。

And that is, I think it's sort of why I work at YouTube is that diversity of creators that we support.

我认为这是YouTube的核心使命。

I think it's sort of the core mission of YouTube.

因此当我们与创作者交流时，重点在于应该制定哪些产品、功能和政策来支持他们实现目标。

And so when we have conversations with creators, it's about what are the sets of products and features and policies that we should put in place that allows them to do that.

要知道，我们有很多创作者永远不会尝试Shorts短视频，这完全没问题。

And, you know, we have lots of creators that are never going to try Shorts and that's fine.

我们平台上有很多创作者，他们作为视频创作者和视频博主已经在平台上活跃了十年，现在对短视频功能感到非常、非常兴奋。

We have lots of creators who have been video creators, vloggers on our platform for ten years and are super, super excited about Shorts.

这同样非常棒。

And that's awesome too.

所以在我看来，所有这些产品形式都可以取得成功，创作者们最清楚什么适合他们和他们的观众。

And so the way I look at it is all of these products can be successful and creators know what really works for them and their audiences.

而我们的工作就是为创作者们提供所有这些不同的发展路径，如果你愿意这么理解的话。

And our job is to address all of those sort of lanes, if you will, for our creators.

我们在这里讨论的是像Shorts这样的产品，我对它感到无比兴奋。

We're talking here about a product like Shorts, which I'm incredibly excited about.

看到它的发展令人欣喜，但YouTube上还有其他存在已久的产品和模式，并非所有创作者都会利用所有这些功能。

It's great to see the growth of it, but we've also had other products and other modes that have existed on YouTube for a long time, and not all creators take advantage of all of that.

例如，我们的直播产品在YouTube上已经存在很多很多年了。

For example, we've had live products on YouTube for, for many, many years.

并非所有创作者都适合或想要制作直播内容，但确实有大量创作者热衷于此。

Not all creators are comfortable or want to do live content, but lots and lots of creators do.

因此我的团队是这样考虑的——我们有一个专门为创作者开发直播产品的团队。

And so the way my team thinks about it, I have a team that's focused on products for that are live products for creators.

他们希望打造出世界一流的创作者直播产品。

They wanna make those the best in class for creators all over the world.

但你知道，可能只有一小部分YouTube创作者会使用这些直播产品。

But, you know, it's probably gonna be a fraction of overall creators on YouTube that use those live products.

但当他们使用时，我们希望这些产品能成为最好的选择。

But when they do, we want them to be the best.

是的。

Yeah.

不过我认为有必要明确说明，因为很多创作者都在讨论专业人士的情况。

I I think it's important to be explicit though, because a lot of the creators are talking about the professionals.

这是他们的生计，他们的生活来源。

This is their living, their livelihood.

我确信你也能感受到这一点。

And I I'm certain you feel this.

为了赢得算法青睐赚更多钱，或者制作更多内容来迎合算法，这种压力非常大。

The pressure to win the algorithm to make more money or to make more stuff to feed the algorithm is very high.

算法的不透明性简直让人抓狂。

And the opacity of the algorithm drives people crazy.

就像我常开玩笑说的，每个YouTuber的生命周期都会到达一个阶段——他们都会制作一个对YouTube表示不满的视频。

Like I always joke that the life cycle of every YouTuber, it like it hits a point where they all make a video about how they're mad at YouTube.

这就像是一条路的尽头，然后那条路又分出岔路。

It's just at the end of one road and then that road branches off.

我认为问题的核心在于产品运作机制有时的不透明性。

And I I think the heart of that is the opacity of how the product works sometimes.

你如何在需要变革和保持灵活性的同时，又能明确透明地说明产品如何影响人们的收入？

How do you balance needing to change and be flexible with needing to be explicit and transparent about how your product affects people's money?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这是个非常、非常有趣的问题。

I think it's a I think it's a really, really interesting question.

我想说几点看法。

I would say a few things.

你的问题涉及很多方面，因为你谈到了收入问题。

I mean, and there's a lot to your question because you talked about money.

显然这其中还涉及分配机制。

There's a distribution component obviously to that as well.

我们的职责是尽可能清晰地说明在YouTube上什么内容有效，什么无效。

Our job is to be as clear as we possibly can about what works on YouTube, what doesn't work on YouTube.

我们拥有完整的团队，包括面向企业的团队和面向创作者的团队，专注于从帮助创作者在我们平台起步，到如何扩大他们的观众群体等一系列问题。

We have entire teams, business facing teams, creator facing teams that are focused on helping everything from creators getting started on our platform to how do they grow their audience?

他们如何考虑盈利模式，不仅仅是广告，还包括我们开发的许多新型盈利产品。

How do they think about monetization, not just ads, but a lot of the new monetization products that we've developed.

因此，我们确实有专门与创作者合作的团队。

So we do have teams that are working with our creators.

我们不仅为顶级创作者提供支持，还为新兴创作者设计了规模化运作的方式。

We have ways of doing that, not just for our top creators, but we also have ways of doing that in a scaled fashion for our up and coming creators as well.

这些都是我们投入资源的项目。

Those are programs that we've invested in.

我们在这方面还能做得更多吗？

Could we do more there?

当然可以。

Yeah, of course.

我们还可以在那里持续开展更多工作。

We could continue to do a lot more there.

每年，我觉得我们在向创作者解释这些内容、为他们梳理信息方面都做得更好一些，这样他们就能做出明智的选择。

Every year, I feel like we get a little bit better in terms of explaining all of this and laying this out for our creators so that they can make informed choices.

我也认识到创作者需要考虑很多方面——内容分发、变现、我们的社区准则等等。

I also recognize that there's lots of things that creators have to think about distribution, monetization, our community guidelines, etcetera.

所以我确实认为这是我团队的责任。

So I do think it is my team's responsibility.

你知道，这也是整个YouTube的责任。

You know, YouTube's responsibility overall.

我们的CEO苏珊也谈到过这点，要让创作者更容易应对所有这些事务。

Susan, our CEO has talked about this too, of making it easier for our creators to navigate all of this.

这是我们正在进行的旅程。

And so that's a journey that we're on.

我们需要在这方面不断进步。

We need to continue to get better and better at it.

但我也要说，我们平台上有持续3年、5年甚至10年的创作者，他们一直在以此为生，不断积累观众。

But I will also say that, you know, we have creators that have been on the platform for three, five, ten years who continue to build a living, continue to build an audience.

他们是世界上最具启发性和令人惊叹的一群人。

They're some of the most kind of inspiring, amazing people in the world.

他们与观众心意相通。

They are attuned to their audience.

他们会根据观众调整自己。

They adjust with their audience.

他们定期从观众那里获得反馈，并持续创作出精彩绝伦的内容。

They get feedback from their audience on a regular basis and they continue to produce, incredible, awesome content.

不过按照你说的，我认为你问题中隐含的另一点是，我们如何为创作者提供他们所需的工具，比如当他们想休息时？

One of the other areas though, to your point, which I think was implicit in your question is how do we give creators the tools that they need to be able to, for example, if they want to take a break, right?

就像休假这样简单的事情，我们如何为他们提供工具和洞察，让他们了解这实际上是否会影响他们的视频在推荐中的展示等等。

Like something as simple as just like literally being able to take a vacation and the like, how do we give them the tools and the insight in terms of whether that actually has any impact in terms of how their videos show up in recommendations, etcetera.

这些一直是我们与创作者持续进行的对话。

Those are always ongoing conversations with our creators.

我们收到很多反馈，我个人也会从创作者那里获取这些维度的意见，我的团队中有一个小组专门负责为创作者开发这些工具。

We get a lot of, I mean, I personally get input from creators, along those dimensions and we have a team on my team that's focused on building out those sets of tools for, for our creators.

你知道，我们讨论了很多关于内容分发和变现的话题。

You know, we're talking a lot about sort of distribution and monetization.

根据创作者们给我的重要反馈，与您所说的相关，影响他们在YouTube整体体验的一大因素就是他们如何与粉丝互动。

One of the big areas of feedback that I get from our creators related to what you're saying that that factors into kind of their overall experience with YouTube is how they interact with their fans.

我指的是视频下方的评论区。

And what I mean by that are the comments below videos.

这个领域往往蕴含着极其丰富的互动。

And that is an area that is oftentimes incredibly rich.

就像你能在那里看到一些最精彩的对话，比如剖析一个物理视频或类似的内容。

Like you can see some of the most amazing conversations there around, you know, picking apart like a physics video or something like that.

但这也是一个领域，我觉得过去我们的创作者有时会感到不堪重负，对吧？

But it's also an area where I feel like sometimes our creators in the past had been getting overwhelmed, right?

比如仅仅因为评论的数量庞大，或者有时甚至是评论的语气。

Just with the sheer volume, for example, or even sometimes the tone of the comments.

因此我们构建了一整套工具来帮助创作者管理这些，既通过自动化方式，比如评论审核，对这些类型评论的更优排序等等。

And so we've built a whole slew of tools to help creators manage that both in an automated fashion, like moderated comments, a much better ranking of those types of comments, etcetera.

这就是我们如何根据创作者反馈开发工具，让他们能更好地管理频道的例子。

And so that's an example of how we've taken feedback from our creators and tried to turn them into tools that allow creators to have a much better experience managing their channels.

好的。

Okay.

我们回来了。

We're back.

现在我们要更深入地探讨YouTube作为产品如何影响创作者。

This is where we really started to dig a little deeper into how YouTube as a product can affect creators.

从好的方面来说，比如有方式可以为你喜欢的视频创作者打赏，到不那么好的方面，比如不告诉创作者推荐算法做了哪些改动。

From good things like there are ways to tip creators if you like their videos to the not so good, like not telling creators what changes are made to the recommendation algorithm.

青少年让成年人困惑已久。

Teenagers have been mystifying adults for a long time.

他为什么不能表现得符合年龄？

Why can't he act his age?

他为什么长不大？

Why doesn't he grow up?

我们无法确切告诉你为什么青少年会有这些行为，但我们确实有一些科学家正在提出非常有趣的问题。

And we don't have definitive answers for you about why teenagers are the way that they are, but we do have some scientists who are asking really interesting questions.

他们问我是否抽过烟，我当时想，我才九岁啊。

They asked me if I smoked once, and I was like, I'm nine.

这就是本周《不可解释》的内容。

That's this week on Unexplainable.

研究人员正在用各种奇妙而古怪的方式，试图弄清楚青少年脑子里到底在想什么。

All the weird, wonderful ways researchers are trying to figure out what's going on inside teens' heads.

青少年嘛，你们懂的？

Peenagers, am I right?

特朗普总统上周末很忙。

President Trump was busy last weekend.

肯尼迪中心荣誉奖

Kennedy Center honors

有时候你会觉得，这种东西要么天生就有，要么永远没有。

It's like sometimes you could say like people, you either have it or you don't.

这栋楼的音响效果真棒。

Great sound in this building.

闯入白宫员工节日派对。

Crash the staff holiday party at the White House.

你们许多人从最初就陪伴我直到第一个任期结束，我们爱你们每一个人。

Many of you have been with me from the beginning until the first term, and we love you all.

我只想祝大家圣诞快乐，

And I just wanna wish you a Merry Christmas,

新年快乐，祝所有孩子们光明节快乐。

a Happy New Year, Happy Hanukkah to all of all kids.

但特朗普唯一想要的圣诞礼物就是印第安纳州共和党人通过新的国会口罩法案。

But all Trump wants for Christmas is for Indiana Republicans to pass a new congressional mask.

社交证明。

Proof social.

如果他们愚蠢地拒绝，就把他们投票赶下台。

If they stupidly say no, vote them out of office.

他们不配，而我将会出手相助。

They are not worthy, and I will be there to help.

谢谢你，印第安纳州。

Thank you, Indiana.

特朗普认为他可以通过选区划分操弄在2026年中期选举中获胜。

Trump thinks he can gerrymander his way to victory in the twenty twenty six midterm elections.

但部分印第安纳州共和党人并不买账。

But some Indiana Republicans aren't buying it.

特朗普及其MAGA运动已接管了共和党。

Trump and his MAGA movement have taken over the GOP.

但在印第安纳州及其他地区，联盟已出现裂痕迹象。

But in Indiana and beyond, there are some signs of cracks in the coalition.

以上是Vox《今日解析》即将探讨的内容。

That's coming up on Today Explained from Vox.

我在节目中提出的一个核心论点是：无论看向何处，都能发现分发平台正直接影响着媒体内容的制作形态。

One of the theses I have on the show is that everywhere I look, I see distribution platforms having a direct effect on the kind of media that is made.

我认为这在历史上是成立的。

And this I think this is historically true.

对吧？

Right?

就像12英寸唱片催生了更长的迪斯科歌曲一样，这种规律一直存在。

Like 12 inch signals made for longer disco songs like just down the line, this has been true.

我看着YouTube，看到你描述的所有现象——那些广告压力，我和YouTuber们交流时，这个话题每次都会出现。

I look at YouTube and I look at all of the things you're describing and all of the pressures and the ad pressures and I talk to YouTubers and it's it comes up every time.

变现规则与推荐算法目标的结合，加上争夺用户注意力的需求，导致YouTube标题总是夸张化。

The combination of rules around monetization and the goal to win recommendation algorithms, people's attention means that YouTube titles are always hyperbolic.

缩略图极尽夸张，视频时长总是卡在十分钟左右，就为了能插入一个或多个片中广告位。

The thumbnails are over the top and videos kinda always hit ten minutes so you can get one of the mid roll slots in or maybe more of the mid roll slots in.

这种压力直接塑造了这种内容形态。

That pressure, it's just like created that product.

对吧？

Right?

比如，我觉得我可以抽象地描述YouTube视频给任何人听，他们立刻就能想到一个完全符合这种模式的视频。

Like, I think I could describe abstractly that YouTube video to anyone and they can immediately think of a video they've seen that fits that exact mold.

你认为需要减轻产品上的压力，让它不再产出那种内容吗？

Do you think you need to ease the pressure on the product so it stops producing that kind of thing?

因为我不确定每个人都喜欢那种视频。

Because I'm not sure everyone loves that kind of video.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，从根本上说，这取决于YouTube系统如何运作。

I think that, the way that I think about it is ultimately the way the YouTube system works.

所以我们的产品运作方式反映了，再次强调，这些核心的北极星指标，也就是观众满意度如何。

So the way our product works is a reflection of, again, sort of some of these core sort of Northstar metrics, you know, how satisfied our viewers are.

他们是否从与创作者的互动中获得了想要的东西？

Are they getting what they want out of their connection with their creators?

对创作者来说也是一样，对吧？

Similarly for creators, right?

我们看待这个问题的方式很相似。

We have similar ways of looking at it.

因此我要指出的两点，甚至超越了你描述的方式，我认为需要考虑的是：我们是否觉得创作者的核心里程碑设定正确且健康？

And so two things that I'll call out that are even up leveling the way that you described it that I think about are, do we feel like the core milestones for our creators are correct and are they healthy?

对吧？

Right?

举个例子，现在有很多创作者刚开始在YouTube发展吗？

So for example, are there lots of creators that are getting started on YouTube?

现在起步是否明显更困难了？

Is it dramatically harder to get started?

还是更容易了？

Is it easier?

我们如何衡量这一点？

How do we measure that?

创作者起步的增长速度如何？

What's the velocity of creators getting started?

我可以告诉你，这不仅是我的创作者团队，也是整个YouTube团队都在密切关注的事情。

I can tell you that that's something that not just, my creator teams, but all of YouTube teams, look at carefully.

可以说这是整个旅程的起点。

So that's sort of at the beginning of the journey, if you will.

关于你问题的第二部分——变现，我们关注的关键里程碑之一是平台上有多少新创作者能达到我所说的‘可持续生活’标准。

We also to your, the second part of your question around monetization, one of the kind of key milestones we look at is how many creators on our platform, new creators are achieving what I would call sort of being able to have a sustainable living on our platform.

我们不仅在美国，实际上在全球范围内都对此进行衡量。

And we actually measure that not just, here in The U S but around the world.

我们会根据购买力平价等因素进行相应调整。

And we adjust that according to, you know, kind of purchasing power parity and the like.

这些指标并不完美，因为它们只是对特定时间点的快照测量。

Those are not perfect because they're sort of measuring sort of snapshots in time.

不过，这算是稍微深入剖析了一下这个问题。

But, again, sort of just to kind of peel the onion back a little bit.

这些都是我密切关注的事项，因为它们从根本上回答了你所描述的问题，对吧？

Those are things that I look at pretty closely because I think they are fundamental ways of answering the questions that you're describing, right?

比如，我们是否真的还在打造一个让拥有新想法的新人能够加入、起步并找到受众的平台。

Like, are we actually still creating a place where new people with new ideas can come, get started, find an audience.

一旦他们找到受众，我们是否正在开发能让他们放弃原有工作、真正在YouTube上谋生的产品和功能，如果他们想成为全职YouTuber的话。

And once they find that audience, are we building products and capabilities that allow them to stop whatever else they were doing and actually, you know, earn a living on YouTube if they want to become full time YouTubers.

这些指标我们基本每周、每月、每季度都会审视，以确保我们为创作者做了正确的事。

And those are metrics we look at literally on a kind of weekly, monthly, quarterly basis to make sure that, we're doing the right thing by our creators.

当我与创作者交流时，得到的反馈总是围绕'你们在做什么？'这个问题。

When I talk to creators, the feedback that I get is around what are you guys doing?

你们正在开发哪些新型工具和功能来帮助我更好地连接观众？

What are the new types of tools and capabilities you're building to help me continue to connect better with my audience?

我收到的每个问题或功能请求，最终都以某种形式回归到这个核心。

Every single question or feature requests I get ultimately sort of boils back down to that in some flavor.

背后可能有变现的目标。

And there might be a monetization objective behind it.

也可能只是扩大观众群体的目标，但归根结底是关于与观众的连接。

There might be just a growing an audience objective behind it, but it really is about connectivity with the audience.

所以我向你介绍了Shorts的起源。

And so I gave you the genesis of shorts.

这是一个例子，我跟你讨论过的关于评论以及创作者如何管理评论的所有内容。

That's one example, everything I talked to you about with respect to comments and how creators can manage that.

这一切都关乎与观众的连接，甚至我们开发的许多变现产品也是如此。

It's all about connectivity to audience, even a lot of the, the monetization products we developed.

现在我们拥有，你知道，我们花了很多时间讨论广告，但我们还有八、九种其他产品让创作者能在我们平台上变现。

And now we have, you know, we've spent a lot of time talking about, you know, there's ads, but we have eight or nine other products that allow creators to monetize on our platform.

所有这些产品的基本主线实际上都是与观众建立联系，无论是超级聊天、超级贴纸还是频道会员。

And the fundamental thread to all of them is actually connecting with the audience, whether it's super chat or super stickers or channel memberships.

因此这对我来说，始终是我与创作者交流时遇到的根本问题。

And so that's always sort of for me, the fundamental question that I get when I when I speak with our creators.

是的。

Yeah.

不过让我问问你关于其他那些东西。

But let me ask you about those other stuff.

我真的很想谈谈内容审核，因为这是你负责的另一项非常引人入胜的工作。

And then I I really wanna talk about content moderation because it's the other thing you run, which is deeply fascinating.

我们之前采访过Patreon的Jack Conte。

We had Jack Conte on from Patreon.

他说，我创建Patreon是因为我把音乐视频卖给了YouTube。

He's like, I started Patreon because I sold the music video to YouTube.

我在YouTube上发布了一个视频。

I put one on YouTube.

但完全没有获得回报。

I was getting no return.

现在我有了另一个平台。

Now I have this other platform.

你需要与观众建立独立的关系。

You need an independent relationship with your audience.

这种关系是独立于平台之外的。

It's outside of the platforms.

我经常听到这种说法。

And I hear this argument a lot.

你们打造了一套产品体系，让一个人与外界的所有联系都可以通过YouTube来完成。

You've built a suite of products where the entire relationship a person has could be through YouTube.

他们所做的一切都通过YouTube的某个产品来实现。

Everything they do comes through YouTube in one of its products.

你们在经营一家企业。

You run a business.

你认为创作者应该只依赖一个供应商、一个平台，还是应该分散到多个平台？

Do you think it's smart for a creator to sort of have one supplier, one platform vendor, or should creators be distributed?

我要说的是，我认为创作者能通过多种方式创收是件很棒的事。

I I will say that I think it's great that creators have multiple ways that they can generate revenue.

我认为其中一点是——如果你和YouTube员工交流，很多人都会告诉你这一点。

I think one of the things and, you know, if you talk to YouTube employees, I think many of them will tell you this.

YouTube真正令人赞叹和鼓舞之处在于，它为YouTubers创建了一个平台，让他们自然能在YouTube上实现盈利。

What's really cool and inspiring about YouTube is that it creates this platform for YouTubers where of course they can monetize on YouTube.

我还提供了超级详细的数据指标，说明我们如何实际衡量创作者的健康状况。

And I gave you like super detailed metrics in terms of how we actually measure the health of that for our creators.

但很多创作者都是从YouTube起步的，然后他们会实现收入来源的多样化。

But lots of creators start on YouTube, but then they diversify in terms of their revenue streams.

我确信。

I'm sure.

我是说，我确信。

I mean, I'm sure.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，我了解你经常和YouTuber们交流。

You'd, I know you talk to YouTubers all the time.

他们中很多人已经出书了。

Many of them have written books.

他们中很多人在其他平台或电视上拥有节目，诸如此类。

Many of them have shows on other platforms or on television, or what have you.

他们中的许多人已在其他平台建立了观众群。

Many of them have built audiences elsewhere.

从YouTube的角度来看，这一切都非常棒。

And all of that is awesome from our perspective on YouTube.

我还经常从创作者那里听到，他们最核心、最真实、互动最深入的忠实观众群体始终在YouTube上。

What I also hear from creators often is that their core sort of most authentic sort of most deeply engaged, leaned forward audience, if you will, is on YouTube.

无论是顶级创作者、新兴创作者，还是刚入驻平台几个月的新人，我都反复听到这种反馈。

That I hear that over and over from our largest creators to up and coming creators to literally, you know, creators who've only been on the platform for a few months.

这也正是我们希望为他们提供YouTube广告之外变现选择的原因。

That is the reason why we also want to give them the choice to be able to monetize beyond ads on YouTube itself.

这并不意味着他们不能使用其他产品或功能在我们的平台上谋生。

That doesn't mean that they shouldn't or can't use other products or capabilities to earn a living on our platform.

但我听到的是，与核心观众在YouTube平台内的无缝衔接才是最有价值的。

But what I hear is that sort of seamless integration within YouTube with their core audience is what's powerful.

这与我之前所说的相呼应——这些变现工具之所以对创作者如此有效，正是因为它们不仅帮助创作者赚钱。

And I'll connect it to what I said previously, which is the reason why these monetization tools have worked in my view so well for our creators is because they're not just about helping the creators make money.

它们还能帮助创作者增强与YouTube粉丝的联系。

They also help them enhance their connection with their fans on YouTube.

就以超级聊天和超级贴纸这样的产品为例。

So look at a product like super chat or super stickers.

是的。

Yes.

这不仅是创作者从直播聊天中获取收益的途径，更是他们与特定用户、铁杆粉丝建立联系的纽带——通过点名感谢等方式增强社区凝聚力。

It's a way for a creator to generate revenue from a live chat that's happening on a stream, but it's also a way for them to connect with particular specific users, specific fans, and they give them shout outs and they build a community that way.

这两方面是相互强化的。

And those two things are reinforcing.

我认为这正是我们构建所有这些变现产品的真正酷炫之处。

And I think that that is what's really cool about all of these monetization products that we've built.

你认为这些人是属于创作者的个人受众，还是YouTube平台的受众？毕竟YouTube本身也是个大型搜索引擎。

Do you think of those people as the creator's audience or a YouTube audience or I mean, there's a big YouTube is also a search engine.

对吧？

Right?

你可以出现在YouTube上，而不属于任何人的观众群体。

You can show up on YouTube and you're not part of anyone's audience.

你只是在家居维修视频之间跳来跳去。

You're just bouncing between home repair videos.

你如何看待观众群体？

How do you think about the audience?

它属于创作者吗？

Does it belong to the creators?

它属于你们吗？

Does it belong to you?

还是两者兼有？

Is it a mix?

我认为，某种程度上...如果没有他们与那些创作者之间的联系，那些观众就不会存在。

I think that I mean, I it's it's sort of, you know, I I feel like that audience wouldn't be there if it wasn't for the connection they have with those creators.

比如我有三个孩子，他们在我们平台上都有自己最喜欢的创作者群体。

I mean, you know, I have three kids, like they have, you know, their favorite sets of creators on our platform.

就像我说的，回到舞台的比喻，我们想打造世界上最好的舞台，但真正的核心在于观众与台上表演者之间的连接。

Like, you know, like I said, back to my stage analogy, we wanna build the world's best stage, but it really is about the people in the audience connecting with the people that are on the stage.

这就是YouTube的魔力所在。

That is the magic of YouTube.

这就是我们的创作者、粉丝群体和他们建立的观众基础。

That is our creators, fan base, the audience that they've built.

我们的创作者经常这么说。

I mean, our creators say that all the time.

我们通过平台促成这种连接。

We enable it through our platform.

我们的平台能让他们获得规模效应。

Our platform allows them to get scale.

在YouTube这类平台上，创作者体验最棒的一点就是：他们可以分享一个想法，而地球另一端的人能以极具冲击力和启发性的方式接收到它。

One of the cool things that I like about a creator's experience on a platform like YouTube is they can share an idea and it can be received by somebody on the other side of the world in a way that's incredibly powerful and inspiring.

这种情景在YouTube上时刻都在发生。

And that happens on YouTube all the time.

这就是我对此的真实看法。

And so that's really the way I think about it.

我们开发的工具也是沿着这个思路设计的。

And the tools that we built are along those lines too.

你举了个有趣的例子，关于人们在YouTube上搜索如何修理车库门之类的问题。

You know, you gave an example I thought was interesting around people searching on YouTube, you know, how to fix my, whatever garage door, what have you.

我想说，这同样创造了作为观众的我与特定创作者之间的联系。

I would say there too, there's a means to actually create a connection between me as the viewer and that particular creator.

我不得不对家里的热水器进行调整。

I had to make an adjustment to the water heater of my house.

YouTube上有个超棒的视频教会了我怎么做。

There was an awesome video on YouTube that enabled me to do it.

这大概节省了我两小时时间，可能还省了几百美元，对吧。

It probably saved me like two hours of time and probably several $100, right.

来完成这件事。

To do that.

我们刚刚推出了一款名为‘超级感谢’的产品，因为对我来说，那位创作者绝对值得我支付10美元，因为他为我提供了巨大的价值。

And we just launched a product actually called super thanks because it was certainly worth $10 for me to that creator because that creator like delivered enormous value for me.

我会每周都看那位创作者关于热水器维修的视频吗？

Am I gonna watch that creator's videos on, you know, heater repair every week?

可能不会，但我仍然与那位创作者建立了联系。

Probably not, but, but, but I still connected with that creator.

所以这是另一个变现产品‘超级感谢’的例子。

And so that's an example of another monetization product, super thanks.

这关乎连接性，同时也让那位创作者能够赚钱。

That's about connectivity, but also allowing that creator to make money.

这就是我对此的思考方式。

And so that's that's sort of how I think about it.

这些都非常直接。

That's all very direct.

对吧？

Right?

就连传统YouTube的广告产品也非常直接。

Even the advertising products in traditional YouTube is very direct.

对吧？

Right?

你看视频时会有插播广告，部分广告收入会分给创作者。

You watch a video, there's some breaks, the ads play, some percentage of that revenue goes to the creator.

但Shorts的情况并非一对一对应。

With Shorts, it's there's not a one to one.

对吧？

Right?

你刷Shorts时会看到插播广告，而这个新的Shorts计划将根据某种标准发放100到1万美元的奖金。

You watch Shorts, you scroll and interstitial plays and then this new Shorts program is going to deliver bonus payments somehow from a $100 to $10,000.

这个计划实际如何运作？

How does that program actually work?

如何确定创作者获得的价值？

How do you determine the value that creators get?

是的。

Yeah.

我想说几点看法。

I mean, I'll say a few things about it.

首先，这确实算是第一步。

First, it is really kind of a first step.

所以我们将其描述为有限制的Shorts基金，对吧？

That's why we've described it as a finite shorts fund, right?

我认为到明年年底会有1亿美元资金，因为这是我们的目标——或者说我团队的目标——开发一个我们希望能长期规模化运作的Shorts变现方案。

I think it's a $100,000,000 through the end of next year, because it is a means by which I think our goal or my team's goal is to develop what we hope will be the long term sort of scalable monetization program for shorts.

所以应该从这个角度来看，这是起步阶段，真正开始探索如何实现你说的目标，为Shorts创作者制定变现方案。

So I think you should put it in that context, which is a way to get going and to actually really start to figure out a way to, to do precisely what you're saying, describe how monetization can work for Shorts creators.

因为你说得对。

Because you're right.

这种体验确实很不一样，对吧？

The experience is very different, right?

就像你基本上是在消费一个短视频流，因此商业模式必须有所不同。

Like you're essentially consuming a feed of shorts and so that the model has to work differently.

因此短期内它的运作方式是，你知道，显然会有一些标准的资格条件，对吧？

And so the way it's going to work in the near term is, you know, you obviously have kind of the standard sort of eligibility criteria, right?

遵守我们的社区准则，年满13岁以上。

In good standing in terms of our community guidelines, you know, over 13 years old.

我们从10个国家开始，尽管我们希望迅速扩大范围。

We're starting in 10 countries, although we want to expand that very quickly.

每个月根据这些短视频创作者的频道观看量和互动指标。

And every single month based on, you know, viewership metrics, engagement metrics at the channel level for those shorts creators.

而且你必须在过去180天内创作过短视频，这是我们目前设定的截止期限。

And you have to obviously have created a short in the last, I think one hundred and eighty days is, is the cutoff we have right now.

然后你就有资格获得一笔报酬，正如你所说，金额在100到10,000美元之间。

You will then qualify for a payment, which as you described is between a $100 and $10,000.

这些标准可能会改变，但大致上是基于观看量和互动程度来定的。

That criteria could change, but it's roughly in the, on the order of, you know, viewership and engagement.

但这是我们想了解的问题之一：如何准确衡量这一点？

But that's one of the things we want to learn is how do we actually measure that well?

我们如何以对创作者透明的方式进行衡量？

How do we measure that in a way that can be transparent with our creators?

我认为很多这方面的经验将通过Shorts基金获得。

And I think a lot of that learning will come about through the shorts fund.

这可能因地区而异，因为不同地区的受众不同。

It might vary, regionally because audiences are different in, different regions.

因此可触达的观众规模也有所不同。

So it's kind of the the addressable sort of viewership is different.

这些都是我们正在考虑的因素，但大致上这就是该项目的运作设计。

And so those are all of the types of things that we're looking at, but that's roughly how the program is designed to work.

本节目由Shopify赞助播出。

Support for this show comes from Shopify.

如果你有网购经历，很可能曾光顾过由Shopify支持的企业。

If you shopped online, chances are you've bought from a business powered by Shopify.

你知道结账时看到的那个紫色Shop Pay按钮吗？

You know, that purple shop pay button you see at the checkout?

就是那个让购物变得异常简单的按钮？

The one that makes buying so incredibly easy?

那就是Shopify，这么多商家选择它是有原因的。

That's Shopify, And there's a reason so many businesses sell with it.

Shopify是全球数百万企业的商业平台，支撑着美国10%的电子商务交易。

Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all ecommerce in The US.

从美泰、Gymshark这样的家喻户晓品牌，到刚刚起步的新锐品牌。

From household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started.

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With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand's style.

Shopify还内置了实用的AI工具，能撰写产品描述、页面标题，甚至优化产品图片。

And Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography.

最重要的是，Shopify是你的商业专家，在库存管理、国际物流、退货处理等方方面面都拥有世界级专业能力。

And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond.

借助Shopify将梦想变为现实，助其获得最佳成功机会。

Turn those dreams into and give them the best shot at success with Shopify.

立即注册每月1美元的试用计划，今天就开始在shopify.com/decoder销售吧。

Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/decoder.

访问shopify.com/decoder。

Go to shopify.com/decoder.

网址是shopify.com/decoder。

That's shopify.com/decoder.

本节目由Vanta赞助播出。

Support for this show comes from Vanta.

客户信任可以成就也可以摧毁您的业务。

Customer trust can make or break your business.

随着业务规模扩大，安全与合规工具会变得愈加复杂。

And the more your business grows, the more complex your security and compliance tools get.

这可能会演变成一场混乱。

It can turn into chaos.

混乱绝非安全策略。

And chaos isn't a security strategy.

这正是Vanta的用武之地。

That's where Vanta comes in.

将Vanta视为您全天候在线的AI安全专家，随业务规模同步扩展。

Think of Vanta as your always on, AI powered security expert who scales with you.

Vanta自动化合规流程，持续监控安全控制，为您提供合规与风险的统一数据源。

Vanta automates compliance, continuously monitors your controls, and gives you a single source of truth for compliance and risk.

无论您是像Cursor这样的高速增长初创企业，还是像Snowflake这样的成熟企业，Vanta都能无缝融入现有工作流，助您持续打造值得客户信赖的公司。

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立即登录vanta.com/decoder开启体验。

Get started at vanta.com/decoder.

网址是vanta.com/decoder。

That's vanta.com/decoder.

vanta.com/decoder。

Vanta.com/decoder.

我们继续与尼尔·梅塔对话。

We're back with Neil Mehta.

好的。

Okay.

我想确保最后能花些时间讨论信任与安全问题。

I wanna make sure we spend some time at the end here on trust and safety.

据我所知，信任安全部门直接向您这位产品负责人汇报，这种情况很特殊。

It is as far as I can tell, it is unique that the trust and safety organization reports to you as the head of product.

为什么这样设置？

Why is that?

很难想象YouTube的产品体验能不考虑社区准则对观众和创作者的影响。

It's hard to imagine a YouTube product experience without taking into account how the community guidelines impact our viewers and our creators.

过去一小时我们讨论了所有这些产品功能及其背后的决策逻辑。

We've spent the last hour talking about all of these products and features and the decisions that go behind creating them.

我认为社区准则及其运作方式，构成了整个生态系统中观众、创作者和广告主产品体验的核心部分。

Well, I would argue that a core part of that overall product experience for our entire ecosystem, viewers, creators, advertisers are our community guidelines and how they work.

这是我要说的第一点。

So that's the first thing that I would say.

第二点则更为微妙，但我想在某些方面对YouTube的运作方式更为关键——当我们讨论内容审核或社区准则时，我们往往只关注其中极小部分，即那些在平台上保留或下架的视频。

The second thing is a little bit more subtle, but I think in some ways is even more critical in terms of how YouTube works, which is when we talk about content moderation or community guidelines, or what have you, we tend to focus on the very, very small portion of what happens there, which is videos that stay up or come down on the platform.

这绝非内容为用户呈现方式的全部。

And that is not by any means the be all and end all of how content manifests itself for our users.

我的意思是，这不仅仅是关于视频保留或下架的问题。

What I mean by that is it's not just about videos that come down or stay up.

还涉及我们的推荐系统如何运作。

It's also about how our recommendation systems work.

关乎排名系统的工作机制。

It's about how ranking system work.

也关系到搜索系统的运行方式。

It's about how our search systems work.

同样重要的是，那些占99.9%、努力做正确事情的创作者们如何获得回报。

It's also about how creators, you know, 99.9% of whom are looking to do the right thing are rewarded.

就我们对生态系统、对作为全球平台所有观众的责任而言，我将其视为我们采用的'四R'框架——这又回到了基本原则和框架体系，其中第一个R仅涉及移除违反社区准则的内容。

In terms of our responsibility to our ecosystem, to all of our viewers as a global platform, The way I think about it is this four R's framework that we have, you know, again, going back to sort of first principles and frameworks, and only the first R is about removing content that's violative of our community guidelines.

但我们还有另外三个R：提升权威内容。

But we have three other Rs raising up authoritative content.

你们已经在当前疫情背景下看到了这一点。

You've seen this in the context of, you know, the pandemic that we're living through.

我们设置了信息面板。

We have information panels.

我们每天在用户首页推送COVID新闻专栏，内容来自权威新闻机构和卫生部门等。

We have a COVID news shelf that runs on your home feed every single day that has videos from authoritative news sources, from health authorities, etcetera.

因此当涉及新闻或医疗错误信息等关键内容时，我们会提升权威内容的曝光度。

So we raise up authoritative content when it comes to people looking for news or medical misinformation, critical information like that.

我们还会在推荐和排名算法中降低某些内容的权重——这些内容虽未明确违反社区准则，但可能因其他原因（如有害的错误信息等）处于灰色地带，这类界限往往非常模糊不清，对吧？

We also reduce content in our recommendations and ranking algorithms when they are not clearly community guideline violative, but could be borderline for other reasons, you know, harmful misinformation, etcetera, where oftentimes the lines are very blurry and not clear, right?

政治言论与错误信息之间的界限究竟在哪里？

What's the line between political speech and misinformation.

我们可能会在用户的信息流中减少推荐这类内容。

We might reduce the recommendations of that type of content in users, users feeds.

这算是第三个R，而我们用第四个R将其整合起来，即我们称之为'奖励'的机制——将变现资源导向那些致力于做正确事情、在YouTube上建立观众群和业务的创作者。

That's kind of the third R and we bring it all together with the fourth R, which is we call reward, which is orienting the monetization resources towards those creators that are looking to do the right thing, build an audience, build a business on YouTube.

所以我想说，这四个R实际上共同构成了我们用户的整体体验。

And so I just would say that all four of those Rs are actually what govern kind of the overall experience for our users.

我们往往总是聚焦于第一个R的讨论，却没意识到其他三个R在YouTube视频数量上的影响程度往往要高出几个数量级，远不止于我们删除的内容。

And we tend to always focus the conversation on the first R, but don't realize that those other three R's oftentimes play an order or two orders of magnitude, more impactful role in terms of number of videos on YouTube than just what we remove.

所有这些都无缝集成到产品运作方式中。

And all of that is seamlessly integrated into how the product works.

我刚才描述的一切都围绕着我们的排名算法，即用户体验如何运作。

Everything I described to you is around, you know, our ranking algorithms in terms of how does the UX works?

比如这些信息栏会出现在哪里？

Like where do, where do these shelves show up?

它们是如何呈现的？

How do they show up?

它们的语言是什么？

What's the language of them?

用户能否点击浏览等等？

Can they click through etcetera?

那么我们的变现计划是如何运作的？

So how our monetization programs work?

这些都是我们为创作者打造的产品。

Those are all products that we build for our creators.

因此我认为将它们视为两个独立事物实际上对整个生态系统不利。

And so I think actually viewing them as two separate things is actually doing a disservice to the entire ecosystem.

这会导致无法开发出合适的产品和服务体系。

It is creating a situation where you can't actually develop the right set of products and services.

你需要以整体性的方式应对这一挑战。

You need to address this challenge in a holistic fashion.

你只是狭隘地关注了其中我认为某种程度上可能是最高调——因为显而易见——但在平台实际运行中影响最小的一个方面。

You've just focused sort of myopically on one sliver of it that I would argue is actually in some ways, maybe the most high profile because it's very clear to see, but in in other ways, the least impactful in terms of what's actually happening on the platform.

所以对你的问题来说这是个有点长的回答，但我想给你完整的背景信息。

So that's it's a bit of a long answer to your question, but I wanted to give you that full color.

让我们聚焦在两个R上：提升（raise）和减少（reduce）。

Let's focus on two of the r's, raise and reduce.

这就是推荐算法。

That's the recommendation algorithm.

我们会向更多人展示优质视频、权威视频。

That's we're gonna show more people good videos, authoritative videos.

我们会减少向人们展示模糊不清的视频。

We're gonna show fewer people the videos that are fuzzy.

负责推荐算法的团队规模有多大？

How big is the team that runs the recommendation algorithm?

具体团队人数不便透露，但确实有数十名工程师、产品经理和用户体验设计师定期对我们的算法进行微调和改进。

So I can't get into the specific numbers of the team, but there's, you know, there's dozens of engineers and product managers and, UX designers who are making tweaks and improvements to our algorithms on a regular basis.

顺便说明一点，这不仅关乎我们首页推荐和搜索排名等方面。

By the way, one thing that I will just clarify is it's not just about recommendations and ranking in our, in our home feed on search, etcetera.

这还涉及到我们推出的产品和功能，比如信息面板或搜索结果面板。

It's also about products and features that we bring to bear like information panels or search result panels.

举个例子，如果你在YouTube上搜索COVID信息或冠状病毒信息，你会看到一个完整的信息面板，其中包含来自卫生当局的文本，无论是美国疾控中心还是世界其他地区的卫生机构。

So for example, if you search for COVID information or coronavirus information on, on YouTube, you will get a full panel that has information, including text from, health authorities, whether it's the CDC or, you know, at other parts of the world, the world health or whoever their national health authority is.

所以这不仅仅是我们的推荐算法如何工作的问题。

And so it's not just about how our recommendation algorithms work.

这关乎整个产品的运作方式。

It's about how the entire product works.

事实上，你可能在很多地方视频下方或信息流中看到的那个COVID信息面板，自三月份以来已经获得了大约6000亿次的展示量。

In fact, that COVID panel that you've probably seen underneath videos or in feeds in many places, I think has received on the order of 600,000,000,000 impressions since, you know, March.

我们将继续运行这个功能，因为我们相信当用户为家人健康做决定时，比如是否应该接种疫苗，这是一个很好的信息来源。

And we're going to continue to run, because we believe it's a good source of information as users are making decisions with respect to the health of their family, whether they should get vaccinated or not.

因此虽然'提升优质内容'和'减少劣质内容'确实主要针对推荐系统，但它们也适用于我们提供给用户的所有这些其他产品。

And so it's really raise and reduce our yes about recommendations, but they're also about all of these other products that we give to our users.

是的。

Yeah.

我会把所有这些归入发现类别。

I I would put all this in the category of discovery.

你们有很多发现功能，但我想专注于推荐。

You've got a lot of discovery features, but I wanna stay focused on recommendations.

我猜应该有一位专门负责推荐功能的产品经理。

I'm assuming there's a single main PM for recommendations, a product manager for recommendations.

她的关键绩效指标是什么？

What are her KPIs?

在谷歌制定OKR时，推荐算法的关键绩效指标是什么？

When you do OKRs at Google, what are her KPIs for the recommendations algorithm?

我们有...这么说吧，我们的推荐团队在YouTube是一个相当大的团队，不只有一位产品经理。

So we have, so what I'll say is it is, our recommendations team is a is a fairly large team across YouTube, so it's not just one product manager.

有很多人。

There's a number of them.

但我会给你举几个例子，而且，为了让你有更深入的了解，我实际上会给你一个全面的概况。

But I'll give you I'll give you a few things and, and, you know, maybe to give you even even more insight is I'll, I'll actually sort of give you sort of kind of the full picture.

如果你，你知道，显然从早期就非常熟悉YouTube的话，你会记得在最初的时候，我们关注的是视频的观看量之类的指标，对吧？

So if you, and, you know, you've been obviously very familiar with YouTube since the early days, you'll remember that in the very early days, you know, one of the things that we looked at were things like views of the video, right?

这是作为判断视频是否有趣的一个信号，但显然这并不足够，对吧？

Is that as a signal of whether that video was interesting or not, or what have you, that was obviously not sufficient, right?

因为它会导致你之前提到的一些问题，比如那些吸引点击的缩略图之类的。

Because it would lead to some of the things that you mentioned earlier, like, you know, whatever clickbaity thumbnails or what have you.

后来我们发展到不仅衡量观看量，还衡量视频的观看时长。

And then we evolved to measuring not just the views, but the viewership of the videos.

比如人们是否真的看完了整个视频，这类因素会如何影响该团队对整体关键绩效指标的考量。

Like are people actually watching the entire video or what have you that sort of factored into the overall KPIs of how that team thought about it.

我们后来进行了改进，认识到不仅仅要考虑那种类型的参与度。

We've evolved since then, recognizing that it's not just about, you know, that type of engagement.

更重要的是观众的长期满意度。

It's about satisfaction, long term satisfaction of our viewers.

这就是为什么你会直接在信息流中看到那些询问你对视频、频道感受的问题。

And that's why you see some of those questions that you get directly in the feed that ask you how you felt about that video, that channel, or what have you.

这可以说是一个演进过程。

That was sort of an evolution.

因此，关键绩效指标就逐渐围绕用户满意度展开。

And so KPIs then evolve around sort of satisfaction of our users.

然后我们在其基础上又叠加了一层，与我描述的整体责任框架相关，即如何衡量我们的推荐算法在提升权威内容或减少边缘内容方面的表现。

And then we've layered another on top of that, which is related to this overall responsibility framework that I described, which is how do we measure, whether we are doing a good job in our recommendation algorithms to raise up authoritative content or reduce, you know, some of this borderline content or however you want to call it.

所以我们围绕这个制定了相应的关键绩效指标。

And so we have KPIs around that.

其中结合了多个R指标的是我们几个月前实际发布的一个指标。

What are the ones, that combines a number of these Rs is one that we actually released a couple of months ago now.

它被称为Vildive观看率，简称VVR。

It's called Vildive View Rate and VVR for short.

我记得我们获得的最新数据大约在0.16%到0.18%之间。

And I think the latest number that we had was, I think somewhere on the order of like 0.16 to 0.18%.

当然这个数字会有波动，但它是团队制定OKR所依据的核心北极星指标，通过抽样方式衡量被判定违反社区准则的视频数量（根据观看量或浏览量加权计算）。

I mean, it fluctuates of course, but that is a core Northstar metric that this, this team would be, you know, OKR ed on what it measures is in a sample based way, the number of videos, you know, weighted by viewership or views, or what have you, that were deemed to be sort of filed of, of our, you know, community guidelines.

当然，我们团队的目标，用你的术语来说就是KPI，是要将这个数字尽可能降至接近零。

And of course the goal of our teams, the KPI to use your term is to drive that down to as near as possible to zero.

这是一项具有挑战性的任务。

That is a challenging task.

在过去一年半到两年间，自从我们认真开始测量以来，我们已经显著降低了这个数字。

We've driven that number down dramatically over the course of the last, you know, year and a half, two years since we've been, you know, measuring that in in earnest.

但这就是那个团队会被设定OKR并作为年度核心北极星指标之一的例子。

But that's an example of something that that team would get OKR'd on and treat as one of their core North Star metrics, for the year.

关于推荐系统的一大批评，我知道你了解这个，相信你也有应对方案，就是激进化漏斗问题。

One of the big criticisms of recommendations, I know you know this, I'm sure you have an answer for it, is the radicalization funnel.

我们在YouTube上反复不断地听到这个问题。

We hear about it over and over and over again with YouTube.

我们听说YouTube内部就推荐算法如何助长激进化有过重大辩论。

We've heard there have been big internal debates inside of YouTube about how the recommendation algorithm fueled radicalization.

这是你们正在测量的内容吗？

Is that something you're measuring?

这是否是你们能够掌控并解决的问题？能否关闭这个功能，向人们展示更多观点，或者让他们远离极端化的漩涡？

Is that something you have a handle on and you can turn it off and show people more viewpoints or keep them out of the radicalization funnel?

我的意思是，这个问题涉及的内容非常广泛，想必你也能理解。

So I mean, as you can imagine, there's there's a lot to that question.

我们内部已经对此进行过研究。

You know, we have looked at this internally.

此前也有过相关的外部研究。

There had been external studies on this.

几个月前有一项研究，我记得是宾夕法尼亚大学和哈佛大学的联合研究，并没有发现这类现象。

There was one a few months ago that was, I think a joint study at the University of Pennsylvania and Harvard that didn't find any of this.

他们认为YouTube的观看行为实际上只是全球媒体消费习惯的一种反映。

They felt that YouTube viewership was really just kind of reflection of media consumption habits in the world in general.

所以目前存在两种不同方向的研究结果。

And so there's been studies in both directions.

显然这是个非常难以衡量的问题，因为每个用户的浏览路径都是独特的。

You know, it's obviously a really hard thing to measure because each individual user's journey is different.

这并不是说我要否定任何个别观众或用户自身的体验。

That's not to say that I'm dismissing any individual viewers or users own experience.

我只想指出，我所知道的以整体方式解决所有这些问题的最佳方法，就是真正专注于‘提升与减少’这两大支柱。

I'll just point back to the fact that the best way I know how to address all of this in a holistic sense is to really focus on those two pillars of raise and reduce.

这是我们能够确定北极星原则与衡量标准，并切实推进这些目标的方式。

That is a way that we can determine sort of what our North star principles and metrics should be and really work towards those.

因此，是的，我会关注诸如我们是否在提升权威内容方面做得足够好，特别是我描述的那些情境下。

And so, yes, I look at things like, are we doing a good job of raising up authoritative content, especially in those contexts that I described?

这是一段持续不断的旅程。

It is a continuous journey.

我首先要承认我们并不完美，也总有改进空间。

I will be the first to say that we are not perfect and we can always get better.

在‘减少’方面我们也同样采取着措施。

We also do the same thing on, on the reduced side.

我刚才已经详细解释了这方面的工作机制。

I gave you a sort of a very detailed explanation of sort of how that works.

这就是我的团队每周主要关注的工作内容。

And so that's what my team is focused on kind of on a weekly basis.

我们确实会以这些指标来衡量自己的工作成效。

And we do measure ourselves on those in terms of whether we're hitting those metrics.

我给你们举了VVR作为一个例子。

I gave you a VVR as one example.

另一方面，在权威内容方面还有其他指标，这是我确保我们的推荐能为观众和创作者做到最佳效果的最佳方式。

There's others, on the flip side, on the authoritative side, and that is the best way I know how to make sure that our recommendations are doing what we think is the right thing by our viewers and our creators.

另一个引起我特别关注的YouTube内容审核系统，因为我过去是个非常糟糕的版权律师。

The other major YouTube content moderation system that is of particular interest to me because I was a very bad copyright lawyer in the past.

我在这方面并不擅长，但我确实做过这行。

I was not any good at this, but I did it.

那就是内容识别系统。

It's content ID.

当我和YouTuber们交流时，他们最常提到的问题之一就是YouTube现有的自动化版权系统。

And when I talk to YouTubers, right, like right at the top of the list is the automated copyright system that exists in YouTube.

有些方面你无法掌控，比如数字千年版权法案的应用。

Some of it's out of your hands, There's the digital millennium copyright app.

还有通知删除机制。

There's notice and take down.

这方面涉及很多内容，但它确实是世界上有史以来最大的自动化版权执行系统。

There's a lot going on there, but it is the largest automated copyright enforcement system in the history of the world.

你觉得它运行得怎么样？

How do you think it's going?

你知道，从产品和技术的角度来看，我认为这确实是YouTube体验中最关键的环节之一，不仅对我们的创作者如此，对版权持有者也是如此。

You know, it's, I would say that, again, just from a product and technology standpoint, I I do think that it is one of the most critical aspects of the YouTube experience for our creators, but also for our rights holders.

在某种意义上，正是它促成了YouTube上许多令人惊叹的用户体验。

And in some sense, it's what has enabled a lot of the incredible sort of user experiences that happen on YouTube.

就像我在其他产品领域说过的，所有这些产品功能都是我们希望逐年逐月持续改进的。

Again, like I've said with our other product areas, all of these products are capabilities that we want to continue to make better year on year kind of month on month.

说到内容识别系统，我们确实在尽最大努力保持平衡。

I would say that when it comes to Content ID, we really do try to strike the balance as best as possible.

你提到了一些约束条件，当然，你知道，整个体系都运作在这些框架之下。

You mentioned some of the constraints, of course, that, you know, this whole world exists under.

再次强调，要回归到基本原则。

Again, tying it back to principles.

我们的核心原则是试图平衡平台上版权持有者与内容创作者的需求。

Our core principle there is trying to balance the needs of rights holders with content creators on our platform.

举例来说，如果我们正在就内容识别系统进行产品评审讨论，本质上就是在尝试平衡那套核心原则。

For example, if we're having a product review discussion around something like Content ID, it is kind of trying to balance that that sort of core set of principles.

你认为内容识别系统目前最需要改进哪些方面？

Where do you think Content ID needs to improve right now?

我认为，我们一直重点关注的一个领域是易用性和透明度。

I think one, I think that, one area that we have been focused on is really around ease of use and transparency.

对吧？

Right?

你提到了DMCA（数字千年版权法），也提到了所有这些约束条件。

You described TMCA and you described all of these sort of constraints.

那确实是一个非常复杂的世界。

That's a really complicated world, that exists out there.

有大量律师专注于这个领域，既要保护权利，又要创建合理使用案例等等。

There's lots and lots of lawyers that are very focused on it in terms of both protecting rights, creating fair use use cases, etcetera.

所以我认为YouTube已经做过的，并且可以继续做的，就是在我们的工具集中提供更高的透明度。

So I think one of the things that, you know, YouTube has done, and I think we can continue to do is just offer more transparency on that in our toolset.

那么我们该如何为创作者和权利持有者无缝构建这些能力呢？

So how do we build, you know, kind of those capabilities for our creators and rights holders in a seamless way?

我们已经做到了这一点。

We've done that.

我还认为工具的易用性是我们一直非常关注的领域。

I also think that, accessibility of the tools, that's an area that we've been very focused on.

我想你已经看到过去几年里，我们是如何扩展这些工具的访问范围，使其适用于更广泛的创作者群体。

I think you've seen over just over the last couple of years, how we've expanded access to those tools in a way that works for a much larger set of creators.

所以这些就是我认为你会看到我们继续投入的方面，不仅在明年，还包括未来更长时间。

So those are the types of things that I think you can see us continue to invest in, you know, going into next year and beyond.

好的。

Okay.

我想把这两个想法结合起来，然后我有个快速问答环节要和你进行。

I wanna tie these two ideas together, and then I have a little lightning round for you.

我有一长串功能需求要向你提。

I have a, like, a laundry list of feature requests for you.

别担心。

Don't worry about it.

不过，Content ID是目前规模最大的自动化内容审核系统。

Content ID, though, is the largest automated content moderation system at scale.

对吧？

Right?

它存在诸多限制，但仍在运行并发挥作用，人们可以发出警告，这确实存在争议。

It has a bunch of constraints, but it runs and it does stuff and people can issue strikes and it is contentious.

关于自动化内容审核的陷阱，你可能比任何人都清楚——除了你团队里真正运营这个系统的人。

And you probably know more about the pitfalls of automated content moderation than anybody, except for maybe the people on your team who actually run it.

除此之外，你们还有推荐算法、相关原则、社区准则以及AI内容审核。

Next to that, you have a recommendations algorithm, you have principles around it, you have community guidelines, you have AI content moderation.

对吧？

Right?

这一切都在构建另一种自动化审核系统。

It's all building towards another kind of automated moderation system.

你们从内容识别系统中汲取了哪些经验，将如何影响未来社区准则审核？又有哪些做法你们会避免？

What have you learned from Content ID that's gonna shape the future of your community guidelines moderation, and what are you gonna avoid?

我认为这是一个非常有趣的观察视角。

I think that's that's a really interesting, lens to to look at.

我想说的是，这两者之间的共同点在于我对技术能力的理解。

And I I would say, the common thread between those two pieces is what I believe technology is good at.

机器学习分类器真正擅长的领域在于处理规模和速度。

What, you know, machine learning classifiers can do well is around scale and speed.

这听起来可能显而易见，但确实是我们目前重点关注的领域。

That's, you know, kind of sounds obvious, but like that is where a lot of the focus here is.

在内容识别领域，我认为它既服务了版权持有者，也服务了内容创作者。

And in the realm of content ID, I believe that it has served rights holders as well as content creators.

正如我所描述的，我们总有改进空间，但总体而言，这个系统多年来在我们的平台上为这两类群体创造了数十亿美元的经济价值。

Well, as I described, there's always more we can do, but in general, that has been a system that has enabled billions of dollars worth of economic value for both of those constituents over the course of many years on our platform.

我想指出这类系统与广泛的内容审核之间的区别在于：机器学习和算法能够处理规模化和速度方面的初级工作。

I would say the difference between something like that and the broad realm of content moderation is machine learning and algorithms can do sort of that first part around scale and speed.

但我也认识到，在全球范围内建立一支训练有素的团队来做出实际决策——那些关于内容的微妙判断——至关重要。

But I have also learned that it is important to have a highly trained group of individuals all over the world to be able to make the actual decisions, the nuanced decisions around content.

机器学习分类器真正擅长的是识别出可能违反社区准则的视频或评论等候选内容。

What machine learning classifiers are really good at is identifying a set of videos or comments, or what have you, that are candidates for potentially being violative of our community guidelines.

但它们经常在判断候选视频是否确实违规的实际决策环节存在不足。

But where they often fall short is in terms of the actual decisions about whether that candidate video is actually truly violative or not.

这是我在过去三四年专注这个领域获得的重要认知。

My learning over the course of the last three to four years of really being focused on this.

再次强调，这正是它成为我们产品组织核心部分的原因之一——这两个方面本质上是紧密相连的。

And again, this is one of the reasons why it's such a core part of our product organization is those two things are fundamentally tied together.

为了实现我们的目标，将违规观看率尽可能降至最低，必须结合机器与人工的优势——机器提供规模和速度，而训练有素的人员则能系统性地运用我们的执行指南，每天处理成千上万的视频，以达成最佳效果。

In order to achieve what we are looking to achieve and drive that sort of violative view rate number down as low as possible, it really has to be a combination of machines because they bring us scale and speed, but also highly trained individuals that can take our enforcement guidelines and apply them to videos in a systematic way, you know, thousands and thousands of times a day to achieve the best possible results.

这些审核人员是为谷歌工作的吗？

Does that moderator workforce work for Google?

他们是你们团队的成员吗？

Is that part of your team?

是外包人员吗？

Is that contractors?

我们这方面由多个部分组成。

We have kind of multiple components of this.

简而言之，团队中既有YouTube正式员工，也有分布在全球各地办公室的扩展团队，我们与合作伙伴共同实现规模化的运作。

So but but at the highest level, we do have employees of YouTube that are part of that team, and then we also have an extended workforce in, you know, offices all over the world where we work with partners to really kind of wrap that up in terms of, of scale and numbers.

所有人员都经过严格培训，持续学习新政策和执行指南。

And they're all incredibly highly trained, always going through training in terms of new policies and enforcement guidelines.

我们还为他们提供资源支持，帮助应对这项极具挑战性的工作——这是由YouTube全职员工和扩展团队共同组成的体系。

Also are provided resources in terms of helping address a lot of the challenges of the work because it is obviously very challenging work, and so so it's a combination of, you know, full time YouTube employees as well as our, extended workforce.

在关于平台内容审核的更广泛讨论中，我常听到一种说法：我们把所有时间都花在关注Twitter上，所有时间都在对Facebook大喊大叫，而YouTube却在背景中悄然滑过。

One of the things I hear from people in sort of the larger conversation around platform moderation is we spend all of our time looking at Twitter and all of our time yelling at Facebook and YouTube kind of slides along in the background.

我听到学术界甚至其他记者都对此感到沮丧，认为YouTube似乎没有获得Twitter（尤其是Twitter）所受到的关注。

And I hear it's a frustration I hear from academics and and even other reporters that YouTube doesn't seem to get the attention that Twitter in particular Twitter gets.

不过你们是否仍在关注围绕02:30左右、关于错误信息指南的辩论？

Are you still paying attention to the debates though around 02:30, around the guidelines for misinformation?

这对你们有影响吗？还是你们在等待国会某人醒来把你们传唤到听证会上？

Does that influence you or are you waiting for someone in congress to wake up and haul you in front of a hearing?

我的意思是，我谈到的关于我们作为全球平台责任的一切，都是我和苏珊持续关注的事项。

I mean, it's a the everything I talked about with respect to our responsibility as a global platform is something that I pay attention to, Susan pays attention to.

这确实是我的首要任务。

It is literally my number one priority.

这是我比任何事情都更加关注的重点。

It is the thing that I pay attention to more than anything else.

而我如此关注的原因，与其说是你描述的那些理由，不如说是因为我相信这是我们观众、创作者和合作伙伴在YouTube体验的核心部分。

And the reason I pay attention to it is less for the reasons you're describing and more, because I believe it is a fundamental part of our viewers and our creators and our partners experience on YouTube.