作家安·克利夫斯

BBC Sounds，音乐、广播、播客。

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

我是劳伦·拉维恩，这里是《荒岛唱片》播客。

I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast.

每周，我都会邀请嘉宾选择八首曲目、一本书和一件奢侈品，作为他们流落荒岛时想要携带的物品。

Every week, I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book, and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island.

由于版权原因，音乐片段比原版广播中的要短。

For rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast.

希望您喜欢收听。

I hope you enjoy listening.

本周的荒岛嘉宾是作家安妮·克利夫斯。

My castaway this week is the writer Anne Cleves.

她被誉为乡村黑色小说的女王。

She's known as the queen of village noir.

犯罪小说是她的专长，她既高产又成功。

Crime fiction is her metier and she is as successful as she is prolific.

2016年，她庆祝了自己在30年间出版了30部小说，次年获得了犯罪作家协会颁发的钻石匕首奖——这是英国犯罪小说的最高荣誉。

In 2016, she celebrated the publication of 30 novels in as many years, and the following year received the Diamond Dagger Award from the Crime Writers Association, the highest honor in British crime fiction.

然而，直到她职业生涯的第二十年，随着《设得兰》系列第一部《乌鸦黑》的出版，她才获得主流成功。

However, it was twenty years into her career before mainstream success arrived with the first of her Shetland series, Raven Black.

她笔下角色从书页到荧幕的转型如此成功，去年《维拉》和《设得兰》都入选了《广播时报》评选的英国最伟大犯罪剧集榜单。

Her characters have made the transition from page to screen so successfully that last year both Vera and Shetland appeared in the Radio Times list of the greatest British crime dramas.

她最著名的两个角色——侦探维拉·斯坦霍普和吉米·佩雷斯——都不符合传统模式。

Neither of her best known creations, detectives Vera Stanup and Jimmy Perez, fit the traditional mold.

他们不穿时髦西装，不带水晶口音，也不探索伦敦的阴暗面。

No smart suits, cut glass accents, or explorations of London's seedy underbelly for them.

薇拉来自东北，身材丰满，人到中年；而佩雷斯则是轻声细语的设得兰人，他对岛屿凶案的调查与如画风景形成鲜明对比。

Vera is northeastern, overweight, and middle aged, while Perez is a soft spoken Shetlander whose investigations into grizzly island crimes belie their picture perfect setting.

在她极具氛围感的故事中，风景与情节常常交织在一起。

Landscape and plot often intertwine in her highly atmospheric stories.

她说，人们把环境与情节、角色割裂开来是个错误。

People make a mistake when they separate setting from plot and character, she says.

人的成长离不开出生和生活的地方。

People grow out of where they are born and live.

安妮·克利夫斯，欢迎来到《荒岛文艺》。

Anne Cleves, welcome to Desert Islandists.

非常感谢。

Thanks very much.

很高兴来到这里。

It's lovely to be here.

所以我首先要问关于你书籍创作规划的问题。

So I have to ask you first about planning when it comes to your books.

你完全不做规划，说实话这听起来很可怕。

You don't do it at all, which frankly sounds terrifying.

请谈谈这个决定。

Tell me about that decision.

嗯，部分原因是前二十年我没有任何商业上的成功。

Well, partly it's because for the first twenty years, I didn't have any commercial success.

所以它必须要有趣。

So it had to be fun.

而且我认为，如果我知道一本书的结局，写作就会失去乐趣，因为从某种意义上说它已经完成了，不是吗？

And I think if I knew how a book was going to end, there would be no fun in writing it, because it's already written in a sense, isn't it?

所以现在我以一个场景、一个想法或一个模糊的主题开始，先写第一章，然后像读者一样继续写下去，所以我需要知道接下来会发生什么。

So now I start with a scene or an idea or a vague theme, and I write the first chapter, and then I write like a reader, so I need to know what's going to happen next.

因此我必须写完这一段，再写下一段。

So I have to write the next bit, and then the next bit.

这种写作方式在犯罪小说作者中有多不常见？

And how unusual is that approach when it comes to crime authors?

我想我算是极端案例

I think I'm at the extreme end

属于那种随性而写的类型。

of the fly by the seat of your pants brigade.

有些人确实非常有条理，但这种方式适合我。

There are some people who are really very well organised, but it works for me.

我通常会在维拉或吉米之前到达那里，所以没关系。

I usually get there just before Vera or just before Jimmy, so that's all right.

用你的话说，你正和他们一起走进黑暗。

So you're walking into the darkness with them, to call the phrase.

请详细谈谈通过人物来描写一个地方，以及反过来通过地方来描写人物的理念。

Tell me more about the idea of writing about a place through its people and vice versa.

这种我们居住的景观塑造并影响我们作为人类的思想？

This idea that the landscape that we inhabit shapes us and affects us as human beings?

我认为确实如此。

I think it does.

我女儿是人文地理学家，而我非常喜欢自己从事的也是人文地理学这一想法。

My daughter is a human geographer, and I quite like the idea that what I do is human geography.

我对社区很感兴趣。

I'm interested in community.

谈到乡村黑色题材，我认为社会是真实存在的，社区很重要，我们成长于那些与我们比邻而居、养育并帮助过我们的人之中。

Talked about village noir, and I think there is such a thing as society, and that community is important, and we grow out of those people that we live next door to, and the people who raise us and help us.

每次你出版一本设得兰群岛题材的书，我知道在出版前都会先让岛民审读。

Every time you launch a Shetland book, book, I know that it's read by an islander before publication.

为什么要这样做？

Why is that?

我不想犯太多错误。

I don't want to get it too wrong.

我总是会出错。

I always make mistakes.

《设得兰时报》总能发现我某些描述不够准确的地方。

The Shetland Times usually manages to find something that I've got not quite right.

但这其实是尊重的问题。

But it's a matter of respect, really.

我对这些岛屿相当熟悉，因为四十多年来我常去那里。

I know the islands fairly well because I've been going there for more than forty years.

但我并不住在那里，所以必须承认那不是我的社区，而是他们的社区。

But I don't live there, so it's important to recognize that it's not my community, it's their community.

让我们去听音乐吧。

Let's go to the music.

这是你的第一张唱片。

It's your first disc.

告诉我你为什么选了它。

Tell me why you've chosen it.

是鲍伊，必须是鲍伊，因为他贯穿了我的一生。

It's Bowie, and it's got to be Bowie, because he runs through my life really.

我不是那种会被音乐触动灵魂的人，所以这些唱片都是因为回忆或故事而被选中的。

I'm not someone whose soul is stirred by music, so these records have all been chosen because of memories or stories.

而且，我希望它们能带来更多故事，所以我希望最后我能爱上写短篇小说，虽然现在很少有机会这么做。

And also, I want them to provide more stories, so I would hope at the end I love writing short fiction and I get very little chance to do it.

所以我希望当被天上的直升机救起时，我会拥有

So I hope when I am rescued by that helicopter in the sky, I'll have

八篇受音乐启发的短篇小说集。

a collection of eight short stories, each inspired by the music.

鲍伊让我回想起青春，也让我想起在桑德兰看他演出的时候，无论是在光明球场还是之前

So Bowie goes back to my youth, but also went to see him in Sunderland when he played in the Stadium Of Light or before It would

应该是在

have been before the

体育场经纪人公园之前。

Stadium Broker Park.

经纪人公园，玻璃蜘蛛巡演。

Broker Park, the Glass Spider Tour.

是的。

Yes.

在城里很有名。

Famous in the city.

我们曾用它的名字命名了一家夜总会，

We had a nightclub named after it for

持续了一段时间。

a while.

是啊。

Yeah.

那并不是最好的。

It wasn't the best.

我连一首歌都没认出来，所以整场演出都让人有点失望，不过

I didn't recognize any of the songs, so it was all a bit of a disappointment, but

我当时在场。

I was there.

我爸妈中途就离开了。

My mom and dad left halfway through.

所以

So

是啊。

Yeah.

嗯，他们显然和我想的一样。

Well, they obviously had the same thought as me.

要不是我丈夫强迫我留下，我早就走了。

I would have gone if my husband hadn't forced me to stay.

大卫·鲍伊的《火星上的生命》。

David Bowie with Life on Mars.

安妮·克利夫斯，我们这些读过《维拉》的人都不会轻易忘记她。

Anne Cleves, those of us who've read Vera will not forget her in a hurry.

但对于还没读过这本书的人，你会怎么描述她呢？

But for anyone who has yet to have the pleasure, how would you describe her?

她只是在一本书的中途出现，我觉得

She just appeared halfway through a book, and I think

回过头去追溯事物的起源是件很有趣的事。

it's quite interesting to go back and try and work out where things come from.

我出生于五十年代中期，在我成长的小镇上，有一些令人敬畏的老姑娘，她们要么在战争中失去了爱人，要么被赋予了作为女性本不可能获得的角色和责任。

And I was born in the mid fifties, and in the small town where I grew up, there were some formidable spinsters who'd either lost sweethearts during the war, or who'd been given roles and responsibilities that they wouldn't otherwise, as women, be allowed.

那时候，如果你是女教师并且结婚了，你就必须离职。

At that time, if you were a female teacher and you got married, you had to leave your job.

那时情况大不相同。

It was very different.

她们穿着破旧的花呢裙子，厚实的袜子和实用的鞋子，但她们非常能干且威严。

And they wore dreadful tweed skirts that were frayed at the hems, thick stockings and sensible shoes, but they were really competent and authoritative.

她们是医院的护士长或是学校的老师。

They were hospital matrons or they were school teachers.

我认为这些人源于那些宁愿单身也不愿成为1950年代家庭主妇的女性。

And I think that grew out of some of those women who had decided they'd rather be single than be 1950s housewives.

你曾提到这部由布伦达·布莱辛饰演薇拉的电视剧改编版，希望她能成为电视女性侦探形象的一剂解药。

And you've said of the TV adaptation, where Vera's played by Brenda Blethin, that you wanted her to be an antidote to TV female detectives.

是的，我不想让她光鲜亮丽，尤其是和美国剧集相比——想想那些CSI里长发高跟鞋的女探员。

Yeah, I didn't want her to be glamorous, especially the American series, think, the CSIs with their long hair and their heels.

你能想象穿着高跟鞋追捕罪犯吗？

Can you imagine escaping a criminal in heels?

而布伦达饰演的角色——土气的装扮、小靴子、帽子、风衣——你能想象她用眼神和智慧碾压那些需要面对的男性对手。

Whereas I think Brenda, Dowdy, Little Boots, Hat, Mac, you can imagine her outstaring, outsmarting some of the men that she has to face.

你认为女性在犯罪小说中的整体呈现度如何？

How well represented do you think women are in crime fiction generally?

是否太多女性角色都是受害者？

Are too many of them victims?

我认为确实如此。

I think they are.

不过现在情况没那么严重了。

I think not so much now.

过去她们要么是贤内助、妻子、受害者，要么就是妓女。

In the past, they are either the help meet, the wife, the victim, the prostitutes.

但我觉得现在情况正在改变。

But I think things are changing now.

现在有很多优秀的年轻女性作家正在打破陈规，在小说中塑造非常真实、非常强大的女性形象。

There are lots of very good young women writers who are changing the mold and who are bringing very real, very strong women into their novels.

那犯罪小说的市场需求如何呢？

And what about the appetite for crime fiction?

你觉得那是从哪儿来的？

Where does that come from, do you think?

我有个朋友说他认为这东西会上瘾。

I had a friend who was saying he thinks it's addictive.

一旦上钩，我觉得就很难脱身了

Once you're hooked, it's tricky to step I think

在某种意义上，尤其是在当下这个充满困惑与混乱的时代，传统犯罪小说能给人带来一种特别的安心感。

that in some sense, especially now, this time of confusion and chaos that we're living through, there is something very reassuring about traditional crime fiction.

最终秩序得以恢复，正义似乎得到了伸张。

Order restored at the end, justice seemed to be done.

当然，像我写的这种安静、家庭式的犯罪小说，可以成为一种逃避——当世界上发生着各种可怕的事情时，你可以专注于某个特定家庭或小社区的故事。

And certainly, the sort of crime fiction that I write, which is quiet and domestic, can be escapist, if there's all these dreadful things happening in the world that you can focus on a particular family or a particular small community.

该播放更多音乐了。

Time for more music.

这是你今天选的第二张唱片。

It's your second disc today.

为什么选这张呢？

Why have you chosen this one?

这是献给我父亲的，他在朗达出生长大。

This is for my father, who was born and brought up in the Ronva.

他的家族显然有矿工背景。

His family obviously had a mining background.

记得去探望时感觉特别浪漫有趣——住在他父母（我祖父母）的排屋里，用着户外厕所和锡制浴盆，后厨的炉灶烧着矿坑运来的煤。

And remember going and it seemed so romantic and so fun to go and stay with his parents, my grandparents in this terraced house with the outside lavatory with a tin bath, the back kitchen with a range being stoked by coal from the pit.

我想这又回到了社区这个话题，不是吗？

And I think it's also about community again, isn't it?

男性合唱团正是从劳动社区中诞生的。

Male voice choirs growing out of working communities.

我们常常忘记文化属于每个人，属于所有社区，而我尤其钟爱男声合唱团。

That sense that we forget that culture belongs to everybody, it belongs to all communities, and I love a male voice choir.

特里奥基男声合唱团演唱的《天赐食粮》。

Bread of heaven sung by the Triocchi male voice choir.

安·克利夫斯，你曾这样描述自己的童年：'我一直是个讲故事的人'。

Ann Cleves, you've said of your childhood that I was always a storyteller.

这种特质是如何体现的呢？

How did that manifest?

是的。

Yeah.

我想部分原因是我总像个局外人，至少在11、12岁前是这样，因为我父亲是村里的校长。

Think it was partly because I was always a bit of an outsider, at least until I was 11 or 12, because my dad was a village head teacher.

那是个位于赫里福德郡和什罗普郡交界处的小村庄。

And it was a tiny hamlet on the Hereford Shropshire border.

学校只有30个孩子，一间教室用帘子从中间隔开。

And there were only 30 kids in the school, and one room with a curtain down the middle.

所以我是教师的孩子。

So I was the teacher's child.

校长的孩子。

The head teacher's child.

班主任的孩子。

The head teacher's child.

而且

And

那是什么感觉？

what was that like?

嗯，如果你是那样的话，交朋友会相当困难。

Well, if you're that, it's quite hard to make friends.

我本希望能被邀请参加其他孩子的派对和去他们家玩，被大家接纳。

I would have loved to have been invited to other kids' parties and houses and been included.

可能确实有过这样的机会，但我不记得曾去过任何人的家，或有过任何亲密的朋友。

And it might be that I was, but I don't remember ever going to anybody else's house, or having close friends of any kind.

我总是那个在一旁观察的人，因为阅读是种逃避，也是我能独自完成的事。

I was always the one watching and being the observer, and being a great reader because that was an escape and it was something I could do on my own.

还有就是，编造故事——对事物和人永远充满好奇。

And again, making up stories about just endlessly curious about things and people.

你说你编的那些故事里，经常会出现你自己

And the stories that you would make up, you say that you often featured in your

的故事。

own stories.

是的。

Yeah.

这其实是在我识字之前，我脑海里就有这种持续的叙事，记得会用第三人称描述自己的行为和周围人的举动。

This was really before I could read or write, that I had this running narrative in my head I could remember describing in the third person what I was doing and what everyone around me was doing.

我认为这对作家来说很常见。

And I think that's quite common for writers.

但当我学会读写后，这种情况就停止了，因为我沉迷于他人的故事。

But then once I could read and write, that stopped, because I had other people's stories to lose myself in.

我不再需要自己编造故事了。

I didn't have to make them up for myself.

在你的童年和青少年时期，你是个如饥似渴的读者。

And throughout your childhood and your teenage years, you were an avid reader.

你当时都读些什么？

What were you reading?

小时候只要能拿到手的都读，比如伊妮德·布莱顿的作品。

Anything I could get my hands on as a young child, Enid Blyton.

我记得小镇图书馆那位可爱的管理员，她知道我的喜好，总会为我留好书。

I can remember the wonderful librarian in the small town where we went to the library, and she knew what I loved, and she'd save the books for me.

每次我进馆，她就像魔术师从帽子里变兔子那样，从柜台下抽出书来。

And when I'd come in, she'd pull it out from the counter like a conjurer bit pulling a rabbit out of a hat.

那时我大概六七岁，经常在回家路上就把书读完了。

I was six or seven at that point, and so I finished it almost by the time I got home.

就是那么痴迷。

Was just so keen.

所以都是些引人入胜的书，任何刺激的读物。

So page turners, anything exciting.

后来就开始读G·K·切斯特顿的《布朗神父》系列短篇小说。

Move from that onto the short stories of Sherlock Holmes, G.

好。

K.

切斯特顿父亲的品牌故事，阿加莎·克里斯蒂。

Chesterton's father brand stories, Agatha Christie.

即便后来我读了其他小说——确实读过——但每当我感到厌倦、被男友抛弃或是患上流感时，总会重拾传统犯罪小说来寻求慰藉。

And even when I went on to read other fiction, which I did, if I was fed up or I'd been dumped by a boyfriend or had the flu, it was always traditional crime fiction that I went back to.

现在我们可以进入音乐环节了。

We can go to the music now.

今天你选的第三张唱片是什么？为什么选它？

Your third disc today, what have you chosen and why?

哦，这是莱昂纳德·科恩的《苏珊》，这首歌充满了德文郡的气息。

Oh, this is Leonard Cohen's Suzanne, and this is very much a Devon song.

我父亲在北德文郡找到工作，那段时光让我感受到了前所未有的自由。

My dad got a job in North Devon, and it was a sense of freedom then for me.

我进入了文法学校就读。

I started at the grammar school.

那时我11岁，结识了形形色色的朋友。

I was 11 and met different friends, a wide range of friends.

我在学校度过了最美好的时光，尤其是六年级那段日子，我特别怀念。

And I had the best time at school, especially in the sixth form, I loved it.

《苏珊》让我想起15、16、17岁时那些热烈纯粹的友谊——我们蜷缩在烛光摇曳的卧室里，试图用文字重构世界，耳机里循环播放着莱昂纳德·科恩的歌。

And Suzanne reminds me of great, intense friendships that you get when you are 15, 16, 17, and sitting in candlelit bedrooms, putting the world to write, and listening to Leonard Cohen on there.

这首歌也串联起了后来的岁月，因为我们确实在科恩生命的最后阶段去现场听过他的演唱会。

But also, it's a thread through to later life because we did go and see Leonard Cohen too, very, very late in his life.

他是如此优雅大方。

And he was so gracious.

他登台献唱，满足了所有人想听的每首歌。

And he came in and he did every song that everyone wanted to hear.

当时外面正下着倾盆大雨。

And it was absolutely pouring with rain.

因为音乐不像对其他人那样能慰藉我的灵魂，我最后只希望这是最后一次返场，好让我能脱下湿透的衣服，找家温暖的酒馆烘干身子。

And because music doesn't serve a soul as it does for other people, I was at the end hoping that this would be the last encore and I could get out of my sodden clothes and go and find a warm pub and dry out.

苏珊带你去了她河边的住所。

Suzanne takes you down to her place near the river.

你能听见船只经过的声音。

You can hear the boats go by.

你可以在她身边过夜。

You can spend the night beside her.

你知道她有些疯癫，但这正是你想留在那里的原因。

And you know that she's half crazy, but that's why you wanna be there.

她用远道而来的茶和橙子款待你

And she feeds you tea and oranges that come all the way from

莱昂纳德·科恩与苏珊和克里夫的故事——许多作家描述他们的青少年时期都很艰难，但你的北德文郡生活听起来充满乐趣，在海边过得很快乐。

Leonard Cohen with Suzanne and Cleave's many writers describe their teens as difficult, but yours sound like quite good fun living in North Devon, being happy by the sea.

那段时光确实美妙。

It was wonderful, yeah.

海滩派对不断，北德文郡与西南部其他地区有些隔绝，当时确实如此。

Beach parties and North Devon is a bit cut off from the rest of the West Country, and it certainly was then.

我觉得现在它变得有点高档了，但当时肯定不是那样的。

I think it has gone a bit upmarket now, but it certainly wasn't like that then.

我最好的朋友住在Barns De Voor，我至今仍喜欢去看望她。

My best friend lives in Barns De Voor, and I still love going down to visit her.

我怀着极大的怀念记得那段时光，它耗费了

I remember that time with great fondness, and it took

很长时间才找到能与之比肩的事物。

a long time to get something to live up to that.

你在上大学前休了一年去做社区志愿服务工作。

You took a year out before university to do community service volunteer work.

那段经历怎么样？

How was that experience?

那真的很疯狂，因为我一直住在乡下，住在北德文郡，那是个单亲爸爸带着四个孩子。

That was mad really, because I always lived in the country, lived in North Devon, and it was a single dad and four kids.

他在铁路上轮班工作。

And he worked shifts on the railways.

他们非常非常前卫，我觉得现在可能不允许这么做了。

And they very, very forward thinking, and I don't think you'd be allowed to do it now.

但社会服务部门决定派两个年轻女孩去照顾这些孩子，让他们能留在家里。

But social services decided that they would put two young lasses in to look after these kids to keep them at home.

于是我们俩就去了，在乔克农场有套政府公寓。

And so the two of us went, and we had a council flat in Chalk Farm.

在照顾完这些孩子后，我半夜独自从国王十字车站回来时，完全没有感到任何危险，尽管那时那里治安不太好。

And I just didn't feel any sense of danger coming back from King's Cross on my own at midnight after looking after these kids because it was quite rough then.

但我们曾对这些孩子怀有理想，带他们去看芭蕾和戏剧，还帮他们办了图书馆借书证，至于他们如何看待我们，我就不太确定了。

But we had these ideals for these children and we did things like take them to the ballet and the theatre and obviously join them up to the library and what they made of us, I am not entirely sure.

我想这或许就是我没能在大学安定下来的原因——在费尽心思安顿好这些孩子、确保他们得到良好照顾并顺利入学后，读济慈的诗篇似乎显得有点微不足道。

And I suppose that was perhaps why I didn't settle at university because reading about Keats seemed a bit trivial after battling to get these kids sorted and get them well looked after and fed into school.

这段经历让你对自己有了什么新的认识？

And what did it teach you about yourself, that experience?

它让我明白

It told me

我再也不想住在城市里了。

that I didn't ever want to live in a city again.

我喜欢开阔的空间，低矮的地平线。

I like space, I think, low horizons.

我喜欢能看到边界的地方。

I like to see the end of places.

而在伦敦，这座城市仿佛永无止境。

And to be in London, it seemed to go on forever.

即使站在我们居住的塔楼顶层，我也看不到城市的边际。

And even if you were at the top of the tower block where we lived, I couldn't see the edge of it.

所以你去了萨塞克斯大学读英语专业，但大二就退学了。

So you went to Sussex Uni to read English, but left in your second year.

我想你接下来选的唱片或许能告诉我们一些你的去向和原因。

I think your next disc might tell us a little bit about where you went and why.

是的，这是克里斯·斯托特，一位出色的设得兰小提琴手，他来自费尔岛——设得兰群岛中最小最偏远的岛屿之一。

Yeah, this is Chris Stout, who is a brilliant Shetland fiddle player, He is also a Fair Isleander, and Fair Isle is one of the smaller, most remote of the Shetland Isles.

我在费尔岛认识他的父母，因为我大学辍学后得到的那份工作——其实就是在酒吧偶遇后——就是在费尔岛鸟类观测站当助理厨师。

And I knew his parents on Fair Isle because the job that I got after dropping out of university, just after a chance meeting in a pub, really, was assistant cook in the Bird Observatory in Fair Isle.

不会做饭，也不懂鸟类知识，但这是逃离城市的机会，所以我就去了。

Couldn't cook, knew nothing about birds, but it was an escape from the city, so off I went.

很久以后，当我第一次写设得兰群岛的书时，我想以某种方式让设得兰人参与进来，因为从外部闯入并写这些岛屿似乎是一种可怕的冒犯。

And much later, when I first wrote the Shetland books, I wanted to involve in some way Shetlanders because it seemed like a terrible intrusion to be coming in from outside and writing about the islands.

于是我联系了克里斯，问他我们是否能一起做些演出，我朗诵一些内容，他演奏些音乐。

So I got in touch with Chris and asked if we could do some gigs together, I would do some readings, and he'd play some music.

这首曲子是元旦曲，是首传统曲调。

And this piece is a a New Year's Day piece, and it's a traditional tune.

我现在仍和安德鲁与凯瑟琳是朋友，当我发布《野火》——这是设得兰系列最新也是最后一本书时，他们参加了我们在勒威克举办的派对。

And I'm still friends with Andrew and Kathleen, and when I launched Wildfire, which is the most recent and the last of the Shetland books, they came to the party that we had in Lerwick.

克里斯·斯托特和戴德·道恩。

Chris Stout and Dade Dawn.

安妮·克利夫斯，如你所说，离开伦敦后去了设得兰群岛的费尔岛。

Anne Cleves, when you left London, was to go to Fair Isle in Shetland, as you said.

那么你还记得去那里的旅程吗？

So what do you remember of the journey you took to get there?

我记得坐的是旧渡轮圣克莱尔号，一路北上，很顺利。

I can remember it was the old ferry, the St Clair, and going up, and that was fine.

然后我南下到设得兰主岛南部，搭乘前往费尔岛的渡轮。

And then I went down to the South Of Shetland Mainland to get the ferry to Fair Isle.

我原本期待能看到一个漂亮的海港，或许还有家茶室？

And I was expecting a pretty harbour, maybe a tea shop?

格罗特莱斯什么都没有。

There's nothing at Grotless.

最后邮差来了，说他们今天不来了。

And finally the postie came and said, They're not come today.

你难道没看到天气吗？

Could you not see the weather?

三天后，渡船终于来了。

And three days later, the ferry did come.

海浪依然很大，这艘船被略带讽刺地称为'好牧人'。

There was still a big swell, and it's called, with some irony, the good shepherd.

他们用它把羊运走。

And they bring sheep off on it.

气味相当难闻。

It was quite stinky.

简陋但实用。

Rough and ready.

因为天气原因，我们被锁在甲板下。

And we were locked below because of the weather.

到最后我都出现幻觉了。

I was hallucinating by the end.

我病得很厉害。

I was so ill.

我这辈子从没病得这么严重过。

I have never been so ill in all my life.

你到那里时，那个岛是什么样子的？

What was the island like when you got there?

我是说，岛上住了多少人？

Mean, how many people were living on it?

有

There were

大概50人吧，我想。

about 50 people then, I think.

岛长三英里半，宽一英里半。

It's three and a half miles long, a mile and a half wide.

是世界上最美丽的地方。

The most beautiful place in the world.

我爱那里。

I love it.

我至今依然爱着它。

I still love it.

我三月份回去过，部分原因是要和一些即将离开岛上的好友道别，部分是因为我丈夫几个月前刚去世，而我和他是在费尔岛相识的。

I went back in March, and it was partly to say goodbye to some very good friends who were leaving the island, but partly because my husband had died just a few months before, and I'd met him on Fair Isle.

这是重新连接我们初次相遇的美好方式。

And it was just a lovely way to go and sort of reconnect with that first time meeting.

当时我是鸟类观测站的助理厨师，而蒂姆是来观鸟的游客。

So I was assistant cook in the Bird Observatory and Tim came along as the visiting bird watcher.

那时候在费尔岛很难找到什么喝的。

And at that point, it was quite hard to get anything to drink in Fair Isle.

就只有几罐啤酒，没别的了。

And it was cans of beer and not much else.

我带他去宿舍时，注意到他背包顶部塞了一瓶麦芽威士忌。

And I noticed that he had a bottle of malt whiskey tucked in the top of his rucksack when I showed him to the dormitory.

所以我觉得他可能值得结识。

So I thought he might be worth getting to know.

如你所说，你当时是助理厨师。

So as you say, you were assistant cook.

你平常一天的工作是怎样的？

What was a typical day like for you?

头几个月主要就是削土豆皮、打扫浴室、洗衣服。

Mostly the first few months were peeling tatties, cleaning bathrooms, laundry.

不过也有些古怪的经历。

But there were some weird times as well.

那是个鸟类观测站，所以他们在给鸟做环志，那里有科学家。

It was a bird observatory, so they were ringing birds, there were scientists there.

但人们来法罗克还因为这里位于候鸟迁徙路线，经常出现珍稀鸟类。

But also people came because very rare birds turn up in Faroq, because it's on the migration route.

如果有珍稀鸟类出现，我就得骑车到岛上各处挥旗子，通知所有观鸟者回来观察。

So if a rare bird turned up, I'd be cycling down the island waving flags and telling all the bird watchers to come back and see it.

休息日时，我就去岛上转转，常被邀请到当地人家里做客。

And on my days off, I just go down and got invited in to people's houses.

他们真是慷慨极了。

They were so generous.

GG：我们现在要开始听音乐了。

GG: We're going to go to the music now.

这是你的第五张唱片。

It's your fifth disc.

你为什么选了这张？

Why have you chosen this one?

我是Joan Oma Treddy，这让我们从设得兰群岛的故事继续讲下去，因为我曾告诉过你我在那里遇到了我的丈夫，而我们婚后居住的第一个地方是另一个小岛，一个叫Hilbury的潮汐小岛。

This is Joan Oma Treddy, and this moves us on from Shetland because I told you I met my husband there, and pretty well the first place we lived after we got married was another island, a tiny tidal island called Hilbury.

你需要在退潮时踩着泥浆和沙滩走过去，等潮水涨起来时它就成了真正的岛屿。

And you get there by plodging out in the mud and the sand at low water and then the tide comes in and it's a real island.

那就是我们曾经生活的地方。

So that's where we lived.

我一直很喜欢Joan of a Trading，但我记得有次受邀参加派对时，我们穿着岛上的日常装备——雨靴、毛衣、牛仔裤就去了，结果那是个相当正式的派对。

And I always loved Joan of a Trading anyway, but I can remember being invited out to a party and we went in our island gear, you know, wellies, sweater, jeans, and it was quite a smart party.

我们就这样出现在派对上，而这首歌当时正在背景中播放着。

And there we were, and this was playing in the background.

Joan Armitrading的《Love and Affection》。

Joan Armitrading and Love and Affection.

Anne Cleave正带您回顾Hilbury岛上的生活，那是威勒尔海岸附近的一个微型岛屿。

Anne Cleave's taking you back to life on Hilbury Island, the tiny island just off the coast of the Wirral.

那时你正在做缓刑监督官的工作。

You were working as a probation officer then.

那段经历是怎样的？你从中学到了哪些后来影响你写作的东西？

What was that like and what did you learn that would go on to inform your writing?

其实与刑事司法体系关系不大，不过了解这些确实挺有用的。

Not so much really about the criminal justice system, though that's is quite handy to know.

但我大部分工作都是深入调查，试图找出犯罪动机，看看是否存在家庭问题需要缓刑服务介入帮助。

But a lot of what I did was going in and digging and wanting to know what might have caused the offence, were there any problems within the family that the probation service might help with.

我觉得现在缓刑制度已经发生了很大变化。

I think things have changed quite a lot within probation now.

但这是多么难得的机会啊，能闯入这些人的家里，问尽各种你能想到的最冒犯的问题。

But what a chance to go and nab in all these people's homes and houses and ask the most intrusive questions that you could.

你发现了什么让你惊讶的事吗？

And what did you find out that surprised you?

我确实接触过杀人犯，因为我的案卷里也有无期徒刑犯。

I did meet murderers because I had lifers on my caseload too.

其实并不令人惊讶，事实是大多数杀人犯都是些可悲无能的小人物。

And it wasn't really surprising, it was that most murderers are really pathetic, inadequate little men.

而且我不想描写怪物。

And I don't want to write about monsters.

那不是我感兴趣的内容。

That's not something that interests me.

我不想写精神病患者或连环杀手的故事。

I don't want to write about psychopaths or about serial killers.

事实上，谋杀案可能是整个故事中最不重要的部分。

In fact, the murder is probably the least important bit in the story.

更重要的是关注我感兴趣的领域——破碎的家庭，这方面我掌握了大量素材。

It is much more about looking at what interests me, which is about fractured families, I got lots of that.

但我并没有坚持太久。

But I didn't stick it for very long.

你是怎么开始写作的？

How did you come to start writing?

那是在希尔伯里发生的，因为我怀孕了，放弃了工作，而且如果你对鸟类不感兴趣（我确实不感兴趣），那时也没太多其他事可做，所以这是个开始写作的好机会。

That happened on Hilbury, because I was pregnant, I gave up work, and if you're not into birds, and I'm really not, there wasn't much else to do, so it was a great chance to start writing.

我会很早就起床写作。

And I would just get up very early and write.

我对那些说自己没时间写作的人毫无耐心。

I have no patience with people who say they have no time to write.

只要孩子们坐在《芝麻街》前看电视时我有半小时空闲，我就会用来写作。

If I just had half an hour when the kids were sat in front of Sesame Street, there I would be writing.

我的意思是，家里简直一团糟，因为打扫卫生在优先级列表上排最后。

I mean, the house was a total pigsty because that came right at the bottom of any list

的优先级。

of priorities.

那你女儿们呢？

And what about your daughters?

你有两个年幼的女儿，她们对你的写作有什么看法？

You had two young daughters at What the did they make of your writing?

记得有个学校假期，她们下来时贴了些禁烟标志——画着带斜线的香烟，还有禁写标志——画着带斜线的钢笔。

Remember one school holiday coming down and they'd stuck these no smoking signs with a cigarette with a line through it, no writing signs with a pen with a line through it.

她们觉得自己受够了。

They decided they would have enough.

但他们才华横溢。

But they are brilliant.

她们如今是我生命中最引以为傲的珍宝，我的女儿们。

They are the proudest things in my life, my girls now.

她们如此坚强，如此令人惊叹。

They are so strong and so astounding.

今天和我们聊聊你的第六张唱片吧。

Tell us about your sixth disc today.

我们会听到些什么呢？

What are we going to hear?

这首歌来自《最后的船》，名为《我的东北之歌》。

This is from The Last Ship, and this is My North East Song.

我记得在它真正完成之前，BBC二台曾做过一部关于斯汀创作这部音乐剧的纪录片。

I think there was a BBC Two documentary before it was actually complete about Sting's, this musical that he was writing.

当时我听到其中几段旋律，心里就想：这听起来真不错。

And I heard a couple of the tunes and said to myself, That sounds good.

蒂姆听说我对音乐表现出兴趣后欣喜若狂，第二天就瞒着我直接去盖茨黑德音乐中心排队买票了。

Tim was so thrilled that I had expressed some kind of interest in music that he immediately, without telling me, went the next day, queued up at the stage, the music centre in Gateshead, to get tickets.

于是我们就去看了那场演出。

And so we went along to that.

后来在他去世后，我又带着女儿们去北方剧院观看了他们的演出。

And then we went to the Northern Stage with my daughters after he died to watch them do it there.

演员阵容里有位出色的查理·哈德威克，她是我们的朋友。

And in the cast was the fantastic Charlie Hardwick, who's who's a friend.

她和我曾与许多人并肩作战，只为拯救纽卡斯尔的图书馆。

And she and I had, with with a lot of other people, had battled to save Newcastle libraries.

然后就是东北地区了，对吧？

And then it's the North East, isn't it?

那是威尔斯恩德，也是《维拉》前几季在斯旺亨特造船厂办公室拍摄的地方。

It's Wells End, and it's Vera filmed for the first few seasons in the Swan Hunter shipyard offices.

光是想到那里又开始生产东西了——虽然不再是船只而是电视剧，可能剧组里还有曾在那里工作过的工人。

And just the thought that they were making things there again, and it might not be ships, but it was a TV show, and maybe some of the crew were men that had worked there.

这让我震惊得说不出话来。

That made me just dead shocked.

吉米·尼尔和斯汀合作的《我们如今还拥有什么》，出自斯汀与凯瑟琳、彼得·蒂克尔共同创作的音乐剧《最后一艘船》。

Jimmy Neil and Sting with What Have We Got We've Got Now Else from the musical The Last Ship composed by Sting and Catherine and Peter Tickle.

安妮·克利夫斯，1986年你的处女作《手中有鸟》出版，此后你几乎每年都有一本书问世。

Anne Cleves, in 1986 your debut novel A Bird in the Hand was published and from then on you were publishing pretty much a book a year.

这种状态一直持续到2006年左右。

And that went on about 2006.

那一年你出版了设得兰系列的首部作品《黑鸦》，主角警探吉米·佩雷斯来自费尔岛。

And that was the year that you published the first in your Shetland series, Raven Black, the hero detective Jimmy Perez hails from Fair Isle.

该书获得了犯罪作家协会颁发的邓肯·劳里金匕首奖，当时这是全球奖金最高的犯罪小说奖项。

And it won the Crime Writers Association Duncan Lorry Gold Dagger Prize, then the richest crime writing prize in the world.

生活发生了多大变化？

How much did life change?

那次成功带来了什么影响？

What was the impact of that success?

我想，这种改变是因为我作为作家得到了认可。

It changed, I suppose, because I felt validated as a writer.

在那之前，那些书实际上都销声匿迹了。

Until then, the books just disappeared really.

再次感谢图书馆，如果没有图书馆购买一定数量的书、邀请我做活动、与读者见面并推广我，我肯定无法出版作品。

Again, so grateful for libraries, because without the libraries buying a certain number of copies and having me to do gigs and to meet readers and promoting me, I certainly wouldn't be published.

也就不会有维拉和谢特兰电视剧为这个国家带来实际收入了。

And there would be no Vera and no Shetland on the telly actually bringing money into this country.

我记得奖金是两万英镑，这在当时是笔巨款。

I think the prize was £20,000, which was huge.

那相当于我当时工作一年的收入。

And it was what I was earning because I was working then.

这意味着我们考虑搬回东北部，我也打算全职写作。

So it meant that we thought that we would be able to move back to the North East, and I thought I would write full time.

除了成功之外，你也经历过非常艰难的时期。

Now aside from your success, you also experienced some very tough times.

八十年代末，你被诊断出乳腺癌，在经历抑郁后，蒂姆又被确诊为双相情感障碍。

At the end of the eighties, you were diagnosed with breast cancer and after suffering from depression, Tim was diagnosed as bipolar.

是什么支撑你度过难关的？

What helped you through?

书籍、逃避现实、家人、朋友——非常非常好的朋友，还有就是那种我们共同面对的感觉。

Books, escape, family, friends, great, great friends, and I suppose a kind of sense that we were in it together.

那段日子非常可怕，有时躺在床上躺在他身边，却感觉像个陌生人，因为我完全不认识他了。

And there were dreadful times, there were times when lying beside him in bed and it felt as if I was lying next to a stranger because I didn't know him.

但我记得那卓越的NHS，当我走进去时，一位护士长说：别担心，我们会帮你把他找回来的。

But the magnificent NHS that I can remember going in and one of the charge nurses saying, Don't worry, will get him back for you.

当时我并不相信他们的话，因为他变得如此不同，如此抑郁和焦虑。

And not really believing them because he was so different and so depressed and so anxious.

有时他甚至认为自己就是耶稣，能治好邻居家的猫。

There were times when he thought he was Jesus and he could cure the neighbor's cat.

但他们确实让他恢复了正常，他得到了正确的诊断，之后我们过得很幸福。

But they did get him back and he was properly diagnosed and we lived happily afterwards.

我想对任何正在与心理疾病抗争的人说，这种病是可以痊愈的。

And I think I would say to anybody out there who is struggling with mental illness, it is something that you can get better from.

这不是终身监禁。

It's not a life sentence.

在经历这些磨难的同时，你是如何保持如此惊人的工作效率的？

And how did you keep up your extraordinary work rate alongside all of these experiences and struggles?

那又是一种逃避。

It was escape again.