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作为一名摄影记者，你总是希望能遇到那样的拍摄对象。
As a photojournalist, you always hope to have a subject like that.
我拍下了他们的脚。
I took a picture of their feet.
我总是准备好迎接意外，那些不按常理出牌的事情。
I'm always ready for a surprise, something that doesn't work.
这里是TED音频集合出品的《设计重要》，主持人黛比·米尔曼。
From the TED Audio Collective, this is Design Matters with Debbie Milman.
在《设计重要》节目中，黛比将与全球最具创造力的人们畅谈他们的工作、成长历程以及当前所思所想的项目。
On Design Matters, Debbie talks with some of the most creative people in the world about what they do, how they got to be who they are, and what they're thinking about and working on.
在本期特别节目中，为庆祝《设计重要》开播二十周年，我们将重温黛比多年来采访过的摄影师们的精彩对话。
On this episode, in celebration of the twentieth anniversary of Design Matters, we'll hear from some of the photographers Debbie has interviewed over the years.
从某种角度来说，我希望每个人都接受过那种教育。
I wish everybody had that education in some ways.
我不得不离开，因为我确实没有做好本职工作。
I had to leave because I wasn't really doing my job.
狗狗不仅仅是宠物。
Dogs are more than just pets.
可以说它们是家庭中最重要的成员。
They're arguably the most important member of your family.
所以，你当然会竭尽所能让它们保持快乐和健康。
So, of course, you'd do anything to keep them happy and healthy.
Ollie提供富含蛋白质的新鲜餐食，采用真实人类可食用级别的原料制作。
Ollie delivers fresh protein packed meals made with real human grade ingredients.
从五种食谱中选择，根据您爱犬的需求定制个性化计划。
Choose from five recipes with personalized plans tailored to your dog's needs.
餐食采用完美分量的无杂乱包装，配有便于盛取的勺子和保持食物新鲜的储存容器。
Meals come in perfectly portioned mess free packaging with a scoop for easy serving and a storage container to keep food fresh.
担心如何转换狗狗的饮食？
Worried about transitioning your dog's food?
Ollie提供应用内健康筛查服务，专家团队将全程指导，让您安心为挚友做出最佳选择。
Ollie offers in app health screenings where their team of experts will guide you every step of the way so you can feel good knowing you're doing what's best for your best friend.
访问ollie.com/ted Talks，并使用优惠码TED Talks，首单可享六折优惠。
Visit ollie.com/ted Talks and use code TED Talks for 60% off your first box.
本信息由AT&T为您呈现。
This message is brought to you by AT and T.
要知道，我们在这里花了很多时间区分事实与主张。
You know, we spend a lot of time here separating fact from claim.
而在移动网络领域，这种区分至关重要。
And when it comes to mobile networks, that distinction matters.
当AT&T提出主张时，那是您可以信赖的承诺。
When AT and T makes a claim, it's one you can count on.
AT&T是美国速度最快、最可靠的无线网络。
AT and T is America's fastest and most reliable wireless network.
这并非主观看法。
And that's not opinion.
该结论基于RootMetrics美国网络评分报告（2025年1月），使用市售最佳智能手机在全美三大移动网络所有可用网络类型上进行测试所得数据。
It's data based on RootMetrics United States Root Score Report, 01/2025, tested with best commercially available smartphones on three national mobile networks across all available network types.
您的体验可能有所不同。
Your experiences may vary.
RootMetrix排名并非对AT&T的认可。
RootMetrix rankings are not an endorsement of AT and T.
本播客由Wise赞助，这是一款为全球使用货币的国际人士设计的应用。
This podcast is brought to you by Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe.
通过Wise，您只需轻点几下，即可发送、消费和接收多达40种货币，相比主要银行最多可节省55%的费用。
With Wise, you can send, spend, and receive up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps and save up to 55 percent compared to major banks.
此外，Wise不会在您的转账中增加隐藏费用。
Plus, Wise won't add hidden fees to your transfer.
无论您是在巴亚尔塔港用比索购买纪念品，还是向巴黎的亲人发送欧元，您都能享受到公平的汇率，没有任何额外加价。
Whether you're buying souvenirs with pesos in Puerto Vallarta or sending euros to a loved one in Paris, you know you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups.
明智之选。
Be smart.
加入1500万选择Wise的客户行列。
Join the 15,000,000 customers who choose Wise.
立即下载Wise应用或访问wise.com。
Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com.
访问wise.com/us/compare了解更多详情。
Learn more by visiting wise.com/us/compare.
适用条款与条件。
Ts and Cs apply.
苏珊·桑塔格曾写道，拍摄他人是通过以他们从未见过的方式看待他们来侵犯他们。
Susan Zontag once wrote, to photograph people is to violate them by seeing them as they never see themselves.
她接着说道，正如相机是枪支的升华，拍摄某人是一种潜意识的谋杀。
She went on to say, just as a camera is a sublimation of the gun, to photograph someone is subliminal murder.
非常戏剧化的说法。
Very dramatic.
对此我不太确定。
I'm not so sure about that.
过去二十年间，我采访过我们这个时代一些最著名的摄影师，他们碰巧都是非常友善、非常有趣的人，没有一个杀人犯。
Over the past twenty years, I've interviewed some of the most celebrated photographers of our time, and they all happened to be very nice, very interesting people, not a murderer among them.
在本期节目中，我想播放几段那些采访的节选。
On this episode, I wanna play some excerpts from several of those interviews.
凯瑟琳·奥佩拍摄的洛杉矶和旧金山酷儿群体肖像，使她在九十年代声名鹊起。
Catherine Opie's portraits of queer communities in Los Angeles and San Francisco brought her fame and recognition in the nineteen nineties.
2021年我采访她时，想深入了解她职业生涯的早期阶段。
When I interviewed her in 2021, I wanted to get into those early days of her career.
你开始为女同性恋杂志供稿，你提到过《On Our Backs》
You began to contribute photographs to lesbian magazines you mentioned On Our Backs,
这个杂志名是对反色情女性主义期刊《Off Our Backs》的回应。
whose name was a response to the anti pornography feminist journal Off Our Backs.
是的。
Yes.
你是怎么...你是怎么第一次发现这本杂志的？
How did you how did you first discover the magazine?
嗯，住在旧金山的时候，你知道的，你基本上就融入其中了——那时候旧金山的瓦伦西亚街算是女同聚集区。
Well, living in San Francisco, you know, you go you you're basically embedded in at that point, Valencia Street in San Francisco was the kind of lesbian area.
卡斯特罗区是男同的地盘。
The Castro was for the boys.
瓦伦西亚街则是女同的天地。
Valencia Street was for the women.
我们有阿耳忒弥斯咖啡馆、奥森托浴场，还有阿米莉亚酒吧——那是一家全年无休的女同酒吧。
We had Artemis Cafe, we had Ocento Bathhouse, we had Amelia's which was the seven day a week lesbian bar.
所有这些场景都在同时上演。
So you had all of this happening at once.
我告诉你，去阿米莉亚的那些女性，也正是被优秀摄影师们拍摄的对象，比如吉尔·波斯纳、苏西·布莱特等人，当时正值《On Our Backs》杂志倡导性积极主义的时期。
And I'll tell you, like, the women who would go to Amelia's were also the women who were being photographed by, you know, wonderful photographers like Jill Posner and Susie Bright and all of the kind of sex positive in terms of starting on our backs was right there at that time.
于是我就想，我也要给《On Our Backs》投稿照片。
And so I just decided like, well, I want a picture on our backs.
我是个摄影师。
I'm a photographer.
我是个女同性恋。
I'm I'm a lesbian.
为什么我就不能也尝试这么做呢？
Why why shouldn't I try to actually do that as well?
那些杂志让我在私下里意识到自己当时是同性恋，尽管我直到25年后才公开出柜。
Those magazines introduced me to my own sort of private realization that I was gay at the time, although it was another twenty five years before I publicly came out.
不过我收藏的其他杂志你可能会感兴趣，这本你肯定知道。
But other magazines that I have in my collection that I thought you'd enjoy, I'm sure you know this one.
哦，海牛啊。
Oh, manatee.
对。
Yeah.
还有《偷拍瞬间》，那是一本非常特别的出版物。
And then caught looking, which was just an extraordinary publication.
没错。
Yeah.
那时候你还加入了一个名为'流放者'的女性SM社团。
At the time, you also joined a woman's S and M society called the Outcast.
是的。
Yeah.
它是由活动家兼学者盖尔·鲁宾共同创立的。
It was cofounded by the activist and academic Gail Rubin.
但你说过，对你而言，S&M从来与性无关，并将其描述为最可怕、最暴力的隐秘冲动，这些冲动可以被追随、被认可，在一种你可以随时说‘不’的氛围中，几乎变得舒适。
But you've said that S and M was never sexual for you and have described it as the scariest, most violent secret impulses that could be followed and validated and made almost cozy in an atmosphere where you could always say no.
你还进一步表示，你需要逼迫自己克服对身体存在的巨大恐惧。
And you go on to say that you needed to push yourself to get over the enormous amount of fear you had around your body.
你认为那种恐惧是从何而来的？
Where do you think that fear came from?
那种恐惧是关于什么的？
What was that fear about?
嗯，这是个人隐私，不便公开记录，但我童年确实经历过一些创伤。
Well, it's it's personal, and it's it's not on the record in terms of personal, but there was some childhood trauma on my part.
我认为这个社群在治愈我的创伤方面给予了极大的帮助。
And I think that there was an enormous amount of healing that this community brought to me in relationship to trauma.
你从未在任何采访中读到过这些，所以这是我第一次说出来。
And you've never read this in an interview, so I'm saying it right now for the first time.
但是，你知道，在#我也是运动中保持沉默在某种程度上非常困难。
But and, you know, it's been very hard in in a certain way to be quiet about this during the hashtag me too movement.
但这是有原因的。
But there's reasons.
原因在于，当我创作那些自画像时，人们很容易将其等同于——哦，这就是她创作那些作品的原因。
And the reasons are is when you make self portraits that I made, people easily equate that to, oh, well, that's why she made that.
她童年时曾遭受创伤。
She was traumatized as a child.
尽管我努力将这类事情分门别类地处理。
And I tried to very hard again though that kind of compartments that I put things in.
在这个社会里，我们很容易对事物产生联想，并将其夸大，这种方式与个人真实经历并不相符。
In this society, we're very easily to connote things and to take things and blow them out of proportion in a way that's not authentic to one's own experience.
因此，我对自己童年经历的真实性，很大程度上是通过皮革社群在情感层面上得以解决的。
So my authenticity to my own experience into my childhood was definitely worked out on an emotional level very much so through the leather community.
但与此同时，我并不觉得有必要将这种公开性完全展现在世人面前。
But at the same time, the publicness of that is not necessarily something that I feel I need to have completely spelled out in the world.
我完全理解。
I completely understand.
多年来，我一直深柜生活，也不愿透露自己童年遭受性侵的创伤经历，主要是因为我从不想让人说我做的任何事都是因此而起，或因此被贴上‘受损’的标签，更不愿因内心对同性恋的恐惧而被人评判
For years, I was in the closet and also would not disclose my own early childhood trauma in with sexual abuse primarily because I never wanted anybody to say that anything I did was because of that or that I was damaged in some way because of it or that I would be judged because of my own inner homophobia
是啊。
Yeah.
在那几十年里。
In in those decades.
确实。
Yeah.
但我知道，酷儿群体实质上挽救了我妻子罗克珊·盖伊的生命。
But I know that the King community essentially saved the life of my wife, Roxanne Gay.
她公开承认过，如果没有酷儿群体，她根本活不到今天。
She's she's very public about the fact that if it weren't for the King community, she wouldn't be alive today.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我也有同感，无需详述我的过往。
And I feel very, very much the same without having to lay out all the details of my past.
不过，能在这里解决这么多问题真是太好了。
But, yeah, what a an amazing place to be able to work out so much.
谢谢你愿意信任我，向我倾诉这些。
Thank you for for feeling that you could trust me with with this.
你们提到的这种社群感，Roxanne所经历的，似乎是参与BDSM圈最重要的部分，而且它还具有政治性。
That sense of community that both you talk about that that Roxanne has experienced, that seems to be the most important aspect of being involved in the BDSM scene, and that it was also political.
它既是政治性的，也是性爱层面的，更是社群联结的体现。
It was as political as much as it was sexual, as much as it was community.
我读到你们经常在地牢里探讨哲学。
And and I read that you often talked philosophy in the dungeons.
盖尔·鲁宾是个很棒的谈话对象。
Well, Gail Rubin is great to talk to.
我记得有一次，我约盖尔喝咖啡，就是想聊聊那些惊人的经历——比如那么多男性化的女同性恋者转变为男性的过渡期，在初期阶段...我想就艾滋病问题与她进行一场真正的哲学对话，以及她与南市场区男同性恋皮革性俱乐部相关的工作。
I mean, I I remember at one point, you know, asking Gail for coffee and just wanting to talk about the kind of amazing experiences of the transition of so many Butch Dykes transitioning to male, like, in the begin you know, and I wanted to have, like, a real philosophical conversation with her in relationship to AIDS and the kind of work that she did in relationship to the gay male leather sex club South of Market.
所以当你身边有真实的榜样和那个时期围绕我的杰出人物，还有非常性积极的人群时，我们确实就正在做的事情、秉持的理念以及共识性展开了非常深刻有趣的讨论。
And so when you when you have actual role models and brilliant people that were surrounded me at that time period and very sex positive people, yeah, there was, like, really interesting deep discourse in relationship to what we were doing and what we were holding and also consensuality.
某种程度上，我真希望每个人都能接受那样的教育。
And, I mean, I wish everybody had that education in some ways.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
你早期在《On Our Backs》杂志的一些作品里，包含了你的性玩具和皮革收藏的照片。
Some of your early work for on our backs included photos of your sex toy and leather collection.
那是一幅女性站立小便的美丽画面。
It's a beautiful image of a woman standing while urinating.
1987年，你创作了一幅名为《凯西》的自画像，这是一幅黑白照片，画面中你穿着吊带裙，跨坐在床上，佩戴着假阳具。
And in 1987, you created a self portrait titled Kathy, which is a black and white image of yourself wearing a strap on dressed in a negligee astride a bed.
是的。
Yeah.
当时你发誓永远不会成为自己社群中的窥视者。
And at that time, you vowed you'd never be a voyeur within your own community.
但我好奇，你是否曾对以如此公开的方式分享这部分自我感到害羞？
But I'm wondering, did you ever feel shy about sharing this part of yourself in such a public way?
不再了。
Not anymore.
那时候有吗？
Did you at that point?
还是
Or
有的。
Yeah.
我想我当时确实有这种感觉。
I think that I did.
我想我当时还在保护我的父母和家人。
I think that I was still protecting my parents and my family.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为需要很长时间才能想明白作为一个人应该如何自处，以及在这个世界上什么是可以公开的——尤其是考虑到人们往往会给自己原生家庭套上这种奇怪的保护罩。
I think that it takes a long time to figure out how you should be as a person and what is okay to be out in the world in relationship to also this kind of weird protective bubble one puts around their their biological family.
直到某个时刻，我才意识到我的家人其实是我自己选择的家人。尽管我对父母怀有深厚的爱，但我也不会继续躲在柜子里，因为那对我而言不是健康的状态。
And at a certain point, I just realized that my family is my chosen family, that even though I have a profound sense of love for my parents that I was also not going to remain in the closet and that that was not a healthy position for me.
所以我决定豁出去了，不过那张照片实际上直到二月份才公开。
And so I just decided to go for it, but I didn't put that image out actually until the February.
我的意思是，关键在于我后来重新查阅了档案。
I mean, that's the thing is like I went back into the archive.
而且我可能也觉得《女友们》系列里的一些黑白作品可能太接近梅普尔索普的风格了。
And I also probably thought that some of the black and white work from Girlfriends that I did was maybe too close to Maplethorpe.
我需要在皮革社区中建立自己作为女性的独立身份，与Maplethorpe区分开来，尽管我们的审美风格很相似。
And I needed to create my own identity within the leather community as a woman that was separate from Maplethorpe because we both also have similar aesthetics.
对吧？
Right?
就像，我们都喜欢以视觉上经典的方式高度美学化我们的素材。
Like, we really like to highly aestheticize our material in a visual kind of classical way.
所以2000年代的作品拿出来没问题，但在80年代——要知道Robert直到1989年才因艾滋病去世——那时候风格太接近了。
And so that work in the 2000 was fine to pull out where in the eighties when, you know, Robert didn't pass away from AIDS until 1989, it was too close.
这就是你避免使用方形画幅的原因吗？
Is that why you stayed away from using a square format?
其实我在所有私人作品中经常使用方形画幅。
Well, I used a square format a lot in all that private work.
我的意思是，那些都是用哈苏相机拍摄的。
I mean, it was all shot Hasselblad.
没错。
And Right.
是的。
The yeah.
不。
No.
但档案里有这些，因为我真的很喜欢用那台相机。包括在新的费登书中，你会在开头几页看到一张我拿着祖父的Roloflex相机的自拍肖像，大约是1983或84年拍的。
But and the archive has that because it's a camera that I really enjoyed using, Including in the new Feiden book, you'll see an image of me with my grandfather's Roloflex as a self portrait on one of the beginning pages, where it was, like, 1983 or '84.
在这张自拍中，我戴着祖父的软呢帽站在纽约街头，非常——是的。
And I'm in New York City in this self portrait with my grandfather's fedora with a big Yeah.
大衣手持双反相机。
Overcoat holding a twin reflex.
所以那些作品是存在的，一直在进行中，我也在创作。
So that work existed, and it was going on, and I was making it.
但当我决定拍摄自己社群的作品时，我觉得需要创造一种不同的纪实思维方式。
But when I decided to make work of my own community, I felt that I needed to create a different way of thinking about documentary.
于是在《存在与拥有》系列中——那是我第一批影棚摄影作品，拍摄了戴着假胡须的女性朋友们，她们直视镜头。
And so with Being and Having, which was the first studio photographs of mine with the with the women with fake mustaches, my friends with fake mustaches, and looking straight into the camera.
坚持使用黄色背景与统一构图，为肖像创作构建了一种概念定位，我觉得这是摆脱与Mapplethorpe作品比较的必要方式。
Using that yellow background consistently with the consistent framing created a conceptual positioning to portraiture that I felt was a way to shift from, necessarily a comparison to Mapplethorpe.
《存在与拥有》这组作品确实让你声名鹊起。
That work being and and having really shot you to fame.
是什么让你决定全部采用金黄色背景拍摄？
What made you decide to shoot them all on a golden yellow background?
当时我在银湖的客厅里。
Well, I was in my living room in Silver Lake.
我住在Sanborn大道，你知道的，我早期所有肖像作品都是在客厅完成的。
I lived on Sanborn Ave, and I you know, how I made all my early portraits was in my living room.
那时我还没有工作室。
I didn't have a studio.
黄色其实是个与肤色搭配很有挑战性的颜色。
Like, yellow is kind of a hard color in relationship to skin tone.
但另一方面，就我朋友们肤色的多样性而言，这与包容性息息相关。
But the other thing is is in terms of diversity of skin tone of my friends in relationship to inclusion.
黄色最能凸显效果。
Yellow was the best to kind of make it pop.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我经常让所有朋友留着小胡子，用4x5相机拍摄肖像。
And I would often have all my friends get their mustaches, and we would kind of make the portraits since I was shooting with a four by five camera.
我们拍完肖像后就会一起闲逛。
And we'd make the portraits, and then we'd just hang out afterwards.
在银湖的小客厅里，我既没有条件更换各种颜色的无缝背景布，当时也没往那个方向考虑。
So it was also I didn't in a small living room in Silver Lake, I didn't have the ability to change over all different colors of seamless, nor was I thinking about seamless in that way at that point.
直到第二年我开始创作这个肖像系列——最初是与加州艺术学院的好友理查德·霍金斯合作，我们当时开始为共同的朋友拍摄肖像。
It wasn't until I started making the portraits the year after, which began first as a collaboration with my good friend from CalArts, Richard Hawkins, who's a fellow artist, where we started making portraits of our mutual friends at that point.
后来他意识到这应该成为我的个人作品集，就说‘这属于你’。
And then he realized that it was my body of work, and he just said, this is this is yours.
继续做下去吧。
Go with it.
但他确实引导我开始真正思考霍尔拜因以及贵族气质在我们酷儿群体中的体现。
But he he introduced me really thinking about Holbein and what nobility is and what that is within our queer community.
我们对此进行了非常深入广泛的讨论。
We had amazing extensive conversations about that.
理查德是个极其睿智的人，我觉得他在我完成《存在与拥有》后，为我继续拍摄这个群体指明了一条道路。
And Richard is a very brilliant person who I felt just helped lead a a pathway for me in in terms of continuing to photograph the community after I made Being and
我理解展览标题《存在与拥有》是在戏仿精神分析学家雅克·拉康的观点——男性拥有阳具，而女性作为情欲与艺术的化身，本身就是阳具。
I understand that the title of the show Being and Having was a play on psychoanalyst Jacques Lacan's idea that men have the phallus while women, as the embodiment of erotic desire and art, are the phallus.
当我读到这个理论时，我心想：这家伙是认真的吗？
And when I was reading this, I'm like, is was this dude serious?
这确实是严肃的，我必须告诉你这个标题灵感来自《On Our Backs》杂志里那个双手抱胸小便的女性。
So this is serious, and I have to tell you that the title came from the woman with her arms crossed over her chest peeing in On Our Backs.
她是来自加拿大多伦多的杰出哲学家安娜·玛丽·史密斯。
So she is an amazing philosopher from Toronto, Canada by the name of Anna Marie Smith.
她曾是康奈尔大学政治哲学领域的首席思想家兼导师之一。
And she was one of the head kind of political philosophers and teachers at Cornell.
但那时她是我的恋人，我们在加拿大一家酒吧相遇，她和朋友制作了一些非常棒的色情明信片，来自加拿大的某个艺术团体。
But she was my lover at the time and met her in Canada at a bar, you know, and she had been making postcards with a friend that were really awesome erotic postcards from this collective in Canada.
很抱歉，我现在已经不记得那个团体的名字了。
And I'm sorry, I don't remember the collective's name anymore.
但当时我在酒吧里问：‘嘿，你知道这些是谁做的吗？’
But I was in the bar going, hey, do you know who made these?
和我交谈的那位女士说：‘知道，是我和隔壁邻居一起做的。’
And then the woman I was talking to said, yeah, my myself and my next door neighbor did.
就这样开始了与安娜·玛丽·史密斯漫长的友谊和恋情，包括床上那张柔和的肖像照。
And then it started a very long friendship and love affair with Anna Marie Smith, including the portrait that's on the bed, the soft portraits on our bed.
她来加州看我时，我还在读研究生，那是某个学生工作室里的装置艺术。
When she came to visit me in California while I was in grad school, that was a student's installation in their studio.
他们让我们把它当作一个小型私人宫殿，在她来访期间使用。
And they let us have it as a little private palace, so to speak, during her visit.
哇。
Wow.
哇。
Wow.
所以这一切都交织在一起了。
So it all gets wrapped together.
这就是社群的美好之处。
That's the beautiful thing about community.
对吧？
Right?
在八十年代，你会遇到很多人，整个社群都在经历太多事情，尤其是与政治、艾滋病和能见度相关的种种。
Is you meet people and you're in this kind of you know, in the eighties, you're you're going through so much as a community, especially in relationship to politics and AIDS and and visibility.
所有这些内在交织，实际上也构成了我思考并开始探索如何创作的一部分。
And just all of these inner weavings are really also a part of, you know, my ability to think and begin to figure out how to make work.
2021年的凯瑟琳·奥佩。
Catherine Opie in 2021.
阿尔伯特·沃森是一位自七十年代起就备受瞩目的时尚名人与艺术摄影师。
Albert Watson is a fashion celebrity and art photographer who has been prominent since the nineteen seventies.
他拍摄了史上最具标志性的史蒂夫·乔布斯肖像、首只进入太空的猴子、路易斯安那州的死囚犯，以及数百位艺术家、名人、王室成员和文化领袖。
He took the most iconic photograph of Steve Jobs ever taken, the first monkey in space, death row convicts in Louisiana, and hundreds of artists, celebrities, royalty, and cultural leaders.
我在2018年采访过他。
I interviewed him in 2018.
作为当今在世最杰出的摄影师之一，有些人可能会惊讶地得知你天生右眼失明——这也是你将作品集命名为《独眼巨人》的原因，同时也是你公司的名称。
As one of the most accomplished photographers alive today, it might surprise some to learn that you were born without vision in your right eye, which is also why you titled, a book of your work Cyclops, and that is also the name of your company.
是的。
Yes.
大约十年前的一篇文章提到，你左眼视力其实有1.0，但为了保护这唯一的眼睛免受伤害，你一直戴着眼镜。
An article I read from about ten years ago said that the vision in your left eye is actually twenty twenty, but you wear glasses to protect it from hazards because you're down to just one.
一只眼睛。
One eye.
不过你现在戴的好像是双光眼镜。
But it looks like you're wearing bifocals now.
所以我在想
So I'm wondering
我戴双光眼镜是因为很多时候我在暗房里处理底片，或者对着电脑屏幕工作时需要凑近看，双光镜让我更舒适。
I'm wearing bifocals because a lot of times when I'm working and if I'm in a dark room working with negatives or even sometimes when I'm working on a computer screen and I have to go close, I use a bifocal to just it's just more comfortable for me.
而且我并不常戴它。
And I don't use it that often.
在飞机上时，如果阅读光线充足，我其实不需要戴眼镜。
And when I'm on a plane, I don't really need them if I have good light on on a book.
关于独眼这件事，经常有人问我。
So but the one eye, a lot of time people ask me about that.
我就说，天啊，一个独眼摄影师。
I say, oh my god, a photographer with one eye.
但仔细想想，如果你观察摄影师工作，用佳能、尼康等相机取景时，他们只用一只眼睛。
But if you think about it and you watch a lot of photographers working, if they're working with Canons or Nikons and a lot of different cameras, when they look through the camera, they only use one eye.
没人会用双眼同时看尼康、佳能或哈苏的取景器。
They're not using two eyes to look through a Nikon or a Canon or a Hasselblad.
当然，现在摄影师基本都是看着屏幕工作的。
So nowadays, of course, photographers are working off of a screen anyway.
要知道，他们可能还是会通过相机取景，但明年你就能在显示器上查看画面了，那屏幕可以相当大。
You know, they they might frame through a camera, but you're checking it on a monitor next year that can be quite big.
明白吗？
You know?
所以时代已经变了。
So times have changed for that.
但这其实从未真正困扰过我。
But it it never really bothered me.
如果我不刻意去想我的视力问题，那对我来说一切都很正常。
And if I don't think about my vision, then it seems normal to me.
如果我集中注意力在我的视力上，我会非常清楚地意识到我右侧没有视觉。
If I concentrate on my vision, I'm very aware that I don't have sight on the right side.
懂吗？
You know?
我能感觉到这一点。
I I I can feel that.
你知道吗？
You know?
但不知为何，这并没有困扰我。
But somehow it didn't bother me.
你谈到第一次拍照时的顿悟感，以及那种想要一遍又一遍重复拍摄的渴望。
You talked about the revelation that you felt when you first took that first picture and that sense of wanting to do it over and over and over again.
当然。
Sure.
我记得那是你妻子在你20岁生日时给你买了一台富士自动定焦相机。
I I believe that that came when your wife bought you a Fuji automatic fixed lens camera for your 20 birthday.
是这样吗？
Is that correct?
没错。
That is correct.
而且，你知道，我们当时真的穷得叮当响，那是她省吃俭用攒钱买的。
And, it was, you know, we didn't have two pennies really to rub together, and she had saved up for that.
我记得我们四个人分吃一个三蛋煎蛋卷，这种情况持续了一段时间。
I think that we we had a kind of a three egg on three egg omelet between four people for a for a a while.
于是她买了这台小相机。
And, so she bought this little camera.
我想那大概就30美元左右吧。
I think that was, like, I think, $30 or something like that.
但我用它拍了很多照片，真正学会了如何发挥它的最大潜力。
But I used it and, it became really I I learned to use that maximize what it was capable of.
当然，这感觉棒极了。
And, of course, it was great.
拥有自己的相机真是太好了。
It was great to have my own camera.
否则你只能每三周从学校借一次相机。
Otherwise, you were only getting a camera from the school every third weekend.
所以那时候拍照机会很有限，你知道的。
So it was pretty limited, you know.
谈到学习摄影艺术时，你说过自己是老派作风，觉得有责任掌握这门手艺的技术层面，这对你来说很痛苦。
When it came to picking up the art of photography, you've said that you were old school and felt a responsibility to learn the technical side of the craft, which was painful for you.
而你对当今年轻摄影师的建议是：先把技术问题解决掉，熟练到毫无压力为止，你将其比作掌握驾驶技能。
And your advice to young photographers today is get the technical thing out of the way and become so fluent in it that there is no stress, and you've likened it to mastering driving.
一开始会让人不知所措，面对各种仪表和档位。
It's overwhelming at first, but with all the gauges and gears.
但一旦学会，就会形成肌肉记忆，你就能专注于目的地了。
But once you've learned it, it's muscle memory, and you can focus on your destination.
所以有两个问题。
So have two questions.
为什么最初会觉得痛苦？
Why was it painful at first?
因为我并不是个技术型的人。
Because I'm not really a technical person.
我不是那种会去相机店研究最新设备、测试最新程序和数码世界最新软件的人。
I'm not somebody that, is is really gonna go to camera shops and go through all the latest equipment and and test out the latest programs at the latest software and digital world, and so on.
事实上，我其实很擅长谈论技术性话题。
And in fact, I actually got very good to speak about something technical.
我其实非常精通Photoshop，因为当我使用它时，发现自己操作速度慢得像每小时五英里。
I actually got very good with Photoshop, because, when I was doing Photoshop, I found myself operating Photoshop at about five miles an hour.
后来当我开始雇佣一位真正优秀的技术人员（他的操作速度能达到每小时80英里），我发现对我来说最高效的方式是真正理解Photoshop及其潜力，同时让这些专业人员与我共事。
And when I then began employing a really good technician who could go at 80 miles an hour, then I found the most efficient way for me was to truly understand Photoshop and what it was possible of, but to have those people working with me in house.
很多摄影师至今仍在采用、但对我行不通的方式是：他们把作品外包给数码工作室处理。
The thing that didn't work for me that a lot of photographers still do is they send their work out to a digital house.
数码工作室做完部分工作后，再把作品寄回。
And the digital house does some work on it, sends it back.
摄影师提出修改意见后，又寄回去。
He makes a correction, sends it back.
这种方式对我来说完全行不通。
It just didn't work for me at all.
对我来说，与这些优秀技术人员共同操作设备非常重要。
To me, it was very important to be on the equipment with these very good technicians.
所以我坐在两位技术员之间，在左右屏幕间切换工作。
So I sit between two technicians going from a left screen to a right screen.
这样效率极高。
It's highly productive.
现在我完全了解，因为我每天看着他们操作Photoshop八、九、十个小时，就在我眼前。
Now I'm totally aware because I see them, you know, eight, nine, ten hours a day operating Photoshop right in front of me.
所以我清楚知道它能实现什么效果。
So I'm seeing what it's possible of.
因此，与他们合作是极好的方式——通过他们掌控图像的能力，因为我主要关注点（这一直是我的兴趣所在）是印刷。
And, therefore, working with them is is a great way of me sort of through their their their ability to to control the image, because I'm primarily interested, which I always have been interested in, is printing.
显然，在我生命最初的那些年，我痴迷于暗房技术。
Obviously, in the first years of my life, I was interested in darkroom.
就是你们所说的银盐明胶印刷。
So what you call silver gelatin printing.
所以我早已习惯传统暗房工作。
And so I was used to traditional darkroom.
这些知识让我在转向数码领域时拥有了巨大优势。
And it gave me a great advantage with that knowledge moving into digital.
因此我能将许多印刷制作的理念直接应用到数码世界和Photoshop中。
So I was able to apply a lot of the philosophy of printmaking right into the digital world and into Photoshop.
所以Photoshop变得非常出色。
So the Photoshop became very good.
但回到相机和你最初关于技术方面的问题，我并不喜欢那些。
But going back to the camera and your original question regarding technical things, I didn't enjoy it.
不幸的是，有些摄影类型特别吸引那些痴迷相机的人。
Some, you know, unfortunately, kind of photography attracts a lot of especially guys who love cameras.
他们就是痴迷器材本身。
They they just love the equipment.
他们热衷于更换镜头，追逐所有最新的设备软件。
They they love changing lenses and and and and getting all the latest equipment software.
比如我认识一位牙医，他收藏了所有型号的徕卡相机。
I mean, I have a dentist who has every Leica camera ever made.
你知道吗？
You know?
他对此非常痴迷。
He's he's obsessed by it.
他热爱这个。
He loves it.
他说他每晚六点下班都迫不及待想回家，然后花七个小时处理照片。
He said he can't wait to finish at 06:00 every night, and he goes home, and he works on his photos for seven hours when he gets home.
我有点喜欢你的牙医也是个摄影师这一点。
I kinda love that you have a a dentist who's also a photographer.
也是个摄影师。
Also a photographer.
嗯，他简直痴迷了。
Well, he's obsessed.
当然，当我满嘴塞着棉球时，他还试图问我关于摄影的问题，你知道，这种情况下交流可不太容易。
And then, of course, when he of course, when my my mouth is full of cotton wool and he he's trying to ask me questions about photography, you know, it's not so easy to communicate with him.
但他确实非常热爱那些设备。
But he really is he loves the equipment.
而且他并不享受拍照的过程。
And he doesn't enjoy taking pictures.
我说他100%专注技术从不拍照可能不太公平。
It's not fair of me to say that he's, you know, 100% technical and never takes a picture.
但在技术层面，他确实对此充满热爱。
But the technical side, has a love of that.
而我觉得很多技术细节有点烦人。
Whereas, I find a lot of the technical things a little bit annoying.
但正如你之前指出的，有些东西你必须学习。
But some of it, as as you said, pointed out earlier, you have to learn it.
你应该掌握相关知识才能明白发生了什么。
You should have a knowledge of that so that you know what's going on.
考虑到你已经经历了这么多不同阶段的技术要求和技术进步。
Given that you've been working through so many different phases of technical requirements or technical advancements.
你觉得需要多久才能掌握你技艺中每个技术阶段的技能？
How long did it take you to feel like you've mastered each phase of the technical skills of your craft?
嗯，我我觉得至少记得，首先接受了大量培训。
Well, I I think it it it took at least remember, had a lot of training first.
但你在学校接受了培训，然后就会面对现实。
But from the you get training at school, but then you hit reality.
你不再只是试错了。
You're no longer just trial and error.
你必须真正动手实践。
You're you you have to be doing the real thing.
你不能再糊弄了。
You you can't fake it anymore.
你不能说，哦，我明天再试一次。
You can't say, oh, I'll try it again tomorrow.
我的意思是，你必须当天完成并做好。
I mean, you had to you had to do it on the day and get it right.
但我觉得在最初阶段，我经常用这个比喻来说明问题。
But I think in the beginning, and I've given this analogy quite a lot.
我想刚开始时，我在周一拍摄的作品会自比西斯廷教堂般宏伟。
I think in the beginning, I would do a shot on a Monday that I would say is equivalent to the Sistine Chapel.
到了周二再看接触印样时，又会觉得它没有记忆中那么出色。
And then on Tuesday, I would look at it, the contact sheet, and think that it wasn't as good as I remembered it.
等到周三，就直接把它扔掉了。
And then on Wednesday, you throw it out.
所以关键在于如何分解这个过程以避免这种情况发生。
So the idea was how do I manage to break this down to not let that happen.
但我觉得真正达到得心应手、游刃有余的状态，大概花了十到十四年时间。
But I think it began to take ten, twelve, fourteen years before I became really fluent, I felt, and comfortable.
就是当我产生某个视觉构想或创意时，我已具备实现这个想法的技术能力。
So is it when I saw a vision or something, had a creative idea that I had the skills to carry out that idea.
但我始终在持续学习。
But I'm always learning.
直到今天，我始终保持着对意外状况的准备，随时应对可能出现的差错。
Even to this day, I'm always there's always I'm always ready for a surprise, something that doesn't work.
阿尔伯特·沃森，2018年。
Albert Watson in 2018.
皮特·苏扎在奥巴马执政期间担任白宫首席官方摄影师，但他首次在白宫拍照要追溯到多年前。
Pete Souza was the chief official White House photographer during the Obama years, but he took his first pictures in the White House many years earlier.
我在2022年采访了皮特。
I spoke with Pete in 2022.
你曾说过你的个人政治立场与里根总统并不完全吻合。
You've said that your personal politics didn't exactly mesh with president Reagan's.
当你最初加入白宫团队时，这点是否让你感到担忧？
Did that worry you when you first joined the White House team?
当卡罗尔第一次联系我时，我直接表示没兴趣，因为当时我觉得一切进展顺利，而且我对里根的评价并不高。
Well, when Carol first called me, I told her I wasn't interested because I thought things were going so well, and I didn't really think that highly of of Reagan at the time.
但你知道，我们都希望自己的作品能载入史册。
But, you know, I thought we all hope that our pictures live in history.
我当时想，还有什么比在白宫内部更能为历史提供影像资料的方式呢？
And I thought, you know, what better way to provide images for history than it'd be inside at the White House?
总统是民主党人还是共和党人又有什么区别呢？
And what difference does it make whether the president was a Democrat or a Republican?
于是我把这些想法抛到一边，去那里工作了。
And so I sort of put those thoughts aside and went to work there.
实际上，我确实很敬佩里根总统。
And and I actually you know, I admired president Reagan.
他是个正派的人。
He was a decent human being.
他尊重来自各行各业的其他人。
He respected other people from all walks of life.
对我来说，政策层面的东西与我从事的工作——为历史档案拍摄照片——关系不大。
And, you know, to me, the policy part of it was not that significant in terms of what I was doing, which was photographing for the historic archive.
你是否需要培养某种客观性？还是说在你从事的工作中这并不重要？
Did you have to develop a certain objectivity, or was that something that didn't really come up in the kind of work you were doing?
我是说，我认为，我以一名摄影记者的方式去处理，也就是试图拍摄并制作真实反映
I mean, I think, you know, I approached it as a photojournalist would, which is you're trying to photograph and make authentic pictures that
那些
are
实际发生事件的图片。
true to what has taken place.
我不明白，比如说，如果你因为不喜欢他的政策，就可能拍到他挖鼻子的照片。
And I don't know how, like, I guess, if you because you didn't like his policies, you maybe get a picture of him picking his nose.
我的意思是，我从来不明白所谓客观或非客观是什么意思。
I mean, you know, it's sort of like, I never understood what that means, objective or nonobjective.
你只是在记录正在发生的事情，而政策实际上不会影响你拍摄的方式，我不这么认为。
I mean, you're you're you're documenting what's what's happening, and policies really don't affect the way you make a picture, I don't think.
在结束与里根的合作后，你成为首批报道阿富汗战争的摄影师之一，当时是为《芝加哥论坛报》工作。
After your tenure with Reagan, you became one of the first photographers to cover the war in Afghanistan, which you did for the Chicago Tribune.
在那里期间，你曾骑马穿越海拔15,000英尺的兴都库什山口，当时积雪深达三英尺。
And while there, you traversed the 15,000 foot Hindu Kush Mountain Pass on horseback in three feet of snow.
你还目睹了战争黑暗的一面——死亡、破坏与满目疮
You also saw the dark realities of war, death, destruction, devastation.
这对你产生了怎样的影响？
How did that impact you?
嗯，阿富汗战争的有趣之处在于，由于数字技术的进步，这实际上是第一场能通过卫星电话在拍摄几小时后就将照片传回美国的战争。
Well, I mean, the thing that was interesting about Afghanistan was that it was the first war, really, where pictures, because of the advance of digital technology, You could transmit them back to The US hours later after you made them with your satellite phone.
因此《芝加哥论坛报》的读者们能立即对这些照片做出反应。
And and so there was a immediate reaction from the readership of the Chicago Tribune.
要知道，我是和一位名叫保罗·萨洛佩克的记者一同前往的。
You know, we had I I went with a correspondent named Paul Salopek.
说实话，保罗和我曾多次与死神擦肩而过，比如遭遇火箭推进榴弹、狙击子弹之类的危险。
You know, Paul and I had a couple close calls with, you know, rocket propelled grenades and sniper bullets and things like that.
顺便说一句，我们抵达时美军地面部队尚未进驻。
And by the way, we were there before there were any US troops on the ground.
当时美军已开始空袭行动，而我们通常与北方联盟——那些对抗塔利班的当地士兵们协同行动。
The US had started their air campaign already, and and we were usually hooked up with the local northern alliance, the soldiers that were fighting against the Taliban.
你知道，有几次我们就和他们一起在前线。
And, you know, a couple times, we were right there on the front line with them.
我从来都不认为自己是个战地摄影师。
And I'm you know, I never considered myself a war photographer.
我几乎是阴差阳错地就来到了前线。
I sort of ended up right on the front line almost by mistake.
我意识到自己并不擅长这个，因为要在周围发生可怕事情时保持镇定，需要某种特定类型的人。
And I realized that I was not that good at it because it takes a certain kind of person to be able to keep their shit together while really bad things are happening around you.
我意识到那可能不适合我。
And I and I realized that that probably was not for me.
我无法想象有人能在那种情况下保持镇定。
I can't imagine how anybody could keep their shit together in that kind of condition.
嗯，确实有人能做到。
Well, there are people that can.
是啊。
Yeah.
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2004年时，你正在华盛顿特区为《芝加哥论坛报》拍摄
In 2004, you were shooting Washington, D.
特区
C.
当时你被派去报道参议员巴拉克·奥巴马在参议院的第一年
For the Chicago Tribune, and you were asked to cover the then senator Barack Obama's first year in the senate.
你对这个任务有什么看法？
What did you think about that assignment?
那时候你听说过这位参议员吗？还是说他给你留下了深刻印象？
Had you had you ever heard of the senator at that point, or did you have a a big impression of him?
你知道，他在2004年民主党全国代表大会上发表了那场重要演讲
You know, he had made this big speech in 2004 at the Democratic National Convention.
当时我正跟随提名候选人约翰·克里，为论坛报进行随行报道
And at the time, I was with the nominee, John Kerry, traveling with him for the tribune.
巴拉克·奥巴马发表演讲那天，克里还没到达大会现场
And the day that Barack Obama made that speech, Kerry was not yet at the convention.
事实上，我想我们当时是在楠塔基特岛。
I think we were in Nantucket, as a matter of fact.
所以我没看到那次演讲，但后来听说了。
So I didn't see the speech, but I heard about it after.
然后当他当选参议员时，记者杰夫·泽莱尼说，嘿。
And then when he was elected to the senate and and Jeff Zeleny, reporter, said, hey.
我们应该做这个关于他参议院第一年的报道。
We should do this look at his first year in the senate.
我我我稍微多了解了他一些。
I I I sort of read up on him a little more.
《纽约客》曾发表过一篇关于他的长篇报道，我读了那篇文章。
And the New Yorker had published a long profile about him, which I read.
但我其实还没见过他本人，比如通过视频看他长什么样或如何与人互动，直到我真正见到他的那天，那是在一月初。
But I didn't really I hadn't seen him, like, on video and to see what he looked like or how he interacted with people until the day I met him, which was in early January.
是他宣誓就职的时候吗？
When he sworn in?
是的。
Yeah.
就在他前往国会大厦前的几个小时，我在他下榻的酒店见到了他，那是我第一次与他见面。
It was just it was a few hours before he's I met him at his hotel before he had gone up to the capital, which was, you know, the first time that I had met him.
你对他的第一印象如何？
What was your first impression of him?
要知道，参议员生涯的第一天都是仪式性的。
You know, the first day of your senate career is a ceremonial day.
你要宣誓就职。
You're sworn in.
你会得到自己的办公室。
You get your office.
还要参加一些招待会。
You have some receptions.
你要会见这个人、那个人，非常具有仪式感。
You meet with this person, with that person, very ceremonial.
他留在芝加哥的家人们那天也来到了华盛顿，包括萨莎、玛丽亚和米歇尔。
His family who stayed in Chicago came to DC that day, both Sasha and Malia and Michelle.
有几件事让我印象深刻。
And couple things struck me.
第一，尽管我整天都在拍照，但他表现得非常放松。
One, he was very at ease even though I was taking pictures, you know, throughout the day.
我拍到了他在办公室里与萨莎、玛丽亚在一起的画面，他正在大口咬着一个大三明治，嘴里塞满了食物。
I've got this picture of him in his office with Sasha Malia, and he's biting into a big sandwich, and he's got this big wad of food in his mouth.
萨莎和玛丽亚做着自己的事，好像我根本不存在一样。
And Sasha Malia just doing their thing, and it's as if I'm not even there.
这张照片如此亲密无间，而我才认识他大约三小时。
I mean, it's such an intimate picture, and I had only known him for, like, three hours.
作为一名摄影记者，你总是希望能遇到这样的拍摄对象。
And, you know, as a as a photojournalist, you always hope to have a subject like that.
就是那种不会被相机突然出现而吓到的人。
You know, one who isn't, like, you know, suddenly startled by the presence of a camera.
他就这样继续做他的事，而我也继续做我的事，我觉得这对一位新任国家政要来说很不寻常。
And he sort of just went about his business as I went about my business, which was, you know, I thought unusual in a a new national politician.
随后几周里，我观察到他与人互动的方式——不仅关注他演讲时的言谈举止以及民众对演讲内容的反应，更注意到他如何直接与人交流，对遇见的每个人都保持高度尊重。
Then over the the next few weeks to see the way he interacted with people, not only the way he spoke when he was giving a speech and and seeing how people reacted to the spoken word, but then seeing how he would interact with people directly and was very respectful to every person he met.
你能在一些年轻人脸上看到兴奋的神情，尤其是那些非裔美国孩子。
You could see the excitement in the faces of some of the young people, especially the young African American kids.
所有这些在我与他相处的最初几周里就表现得非常明显。
All of that was very noticeable just in the matter of the first few weeks I spent with him.
你当时能预见到他的政治潜力以及他可能在政坛达到的高度吗？
Did you have any idea back then of what he was capable of and how far he might ascend in politics?
是的。
Yeah.
我是说，他当时带着极大的光环进入政坛。
I mean, I think, you know, he came in with a lot of hype.
然后，就像人们问我谁会成为2020年民主党候选人一样，这种事谁也说不准。
And then, you know, you never know as I I people ask me who's gonna be, you know, a Democratic nominee in 2020.
我说，你永远无法预料谁能在全国瞩目的聚光灯下表现出色。
And I say, you never know who is gonna do well under the glare of the national spotlight.
但当然，我能看出他至少有一天会竞选比参议员更高的职位。
But but, certainly, I could see that he would at least someday run for a bigger position than senator.
我不知道那会是州长还是总统。
I didn't know if that would be governor or or president.
我试着把这个想法藏在心底，毕竟我在里根时期待过白宫，知道总统的‘泡泡’是什么样子。
And I and I sort of tried to keep that in the back of my mind, you know, having been in the White House with Reagan and noting what the presidential bubble is like.
你说的‘总统泡泡’是什么意思？
What do you mean by presidential bubble?
我是说，你周围有一整套机制，比如特勤局。
I mean, there's there's this apparatus around you, Secret Service.
出于安全考虑，所有事情都像舞台管理一样——你不能随便离开白宫去散步，去星巴克或唐恩都乐之类的店。
Everything is kinda stage managed in terms of for security reasons, you can't just, like, leave the White House and go for a walk and go to Starbucks or, you know, Dunkin' Donuts or whatever.
当总统时你没法那样做。
You can't do that when you're president.
当你是参议员时，尤其是新任参议员时，你可以这样做。
You can do that when you're a senator, especially if you're a freshman senator.
所以我试着在脑海中构思想象，我觉得如果他将来成为总统，这些画面在二十年后会显得更酷。
So I was trying to make pictures in my mind that I thought if he ever became president, these would be cooler pictures in twenty years.
它们会变得永恒不朽。
There would be more there would be timeless.
但当你回顾这些画面时，你会看到——我是说，我最喜欢的约翰·肯尼迪的一些照片，就是他在竞选总统时拍的，当时人们对他知之甚少。
But as you look back on them, you'd see I mean, there's some of my favorite pictures of John Kennedy are ones when he was running for president, and nobody really knew that much about him.
周围几乎空无一人。
And there's, like, nobody else around.
只有他独自站在机场跑道上，诸如此类的场景。
He's the only one out on the the airport tarmac, things like that.
是啊。
Yeah.
你看到的是那个人本身。
You see the person.
是啊。
Yeah.
所以我一直试图把这些想法记在心底。
So I was trying to, like, keep that in the back of my mind.
我拍了一系列关于奥巴马总统在俄罗斯的照片。
I've got this series of pictures of, president Obama in Russia.
我们曾与他和印第安纳州的卢格参议员一起作为国会代表团访问俄罗斯。
We went to Russia with him and and senator Luger from Indiana on a congressional delegation.
我有他在红场的照片，奥巴马总统，他走过红场时，没人看他。
And I've got these pictures of him in Red Square, president Obama, where he's walking through the Red Square, and nobody is looking at him.
没人知道他是谁。
Nobody knows who he is.
我当时就知道，现在看这些照片会觉得特别酷，因为照片里这个家伙后来成了总统，国家名人。
And I knew that those pictures, when you look at those now, they're really kinda cool to look at because here's this guy that became this president, national figure.
现在所有人都认识他了。
Everybody knows who he is now.
那时候，他在莫斯科四处走动，却没有人认出他来。
And at the time, he's running around Moscow, and not not a soul recognizes him.
2022年的Pizzouza。
Pizzouza in 2022.
本播客由Wise赞助，这是一款为全球使用资金的国际人士设计的应用。
This podcast is brought to you by Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe.
通过Wise，您只需轻点几下即可发送、消费和接收多达40种货币，相比大型银行可节省高达55%的费用。
With Wise, you can send, spend, and receive up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps and save up to 55% compared to major banks.
此外，Wise不会在您的转账中附加任何隐藏费用。
Plus, Wise won't add hidden fees to your transfer.
无论您是在巴亚尔塔港用比索购买纪念品，还是向巴黎的亲人发送欧元，您都知道。
Whether you're buying souvenirs with pesos in Puerto Vallarta or sending euros to a loved one in Paris, you know you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups.
聪明点。
Be smart.
加入1500万选择Wise的用户行列。
Join the 15,000,000 customers who choose Wise.
立即下载Wise应用或访问wise.com。
Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com.
访问wise.com/us/compare了解更多信息。
Learn more by visiting wise.com/us/compare.
条款与条件适用。
Ts and c's apply.
团体健康保险计划仅限于单一保险公司和少数几种方案选择，但这并不适合所有人的需求。
Group health plans are limited to a single carrier and a few plan options, but that doesn't fit everyone's needs.
现在一种名为ICRA的新型雇主保险形式允许员工选择任何保险公司的任何计划。
Now a new form of employer coverage called an ICRA allows employees to choose any plan from any carrier.
了解更多信息请访问ambetterhealth.com/icra。
Learn more at ambetterhealth.com/icra.
在当今快速变化的数字世界中，证明公司值得信赖不仅对发展很重要，更是必不可少。
In today's fast changing digital world, proving your company is trustworthy isn't just important for growth, it's essential.
这就是Vanta存在的意义。
That's why Vanta is here.
Vanta帮助各种规模的公司通过行业领先的人工智能、自动化和持续监控，快速实现合规并保持合规状态。
Vanta helps companies of all sizes get compliant fast and stay that way with industry leading AI, automation, and continuous monitoring.
无论你是初创公司首次应对SOC2或ISO27001认证，还是大型企业处理供应商风险，Vanta的信任管理平台都能让流程更快捷、更轻松、更具扩展性。
So whether you're a startup tackling your first SOC two or ISO twenty seven zero zero one or an enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta's trust management platform makes it quicker, easier, and more scalable.
Vanta还能帮助您以高达五倍的速度完成安全问卷，让您更快赢得大额交易。
Vanta also helps you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster so you can win bigger deals sooner.
结果如何？
The results?
根据IDC最新研究，Vanta客户每年节省超过50万美元成本，工作效率提升三倍。
According to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers slash over $500,000 a year in costs and are three times more productive.
建立信任不是可选项。
Establishing trust isn't optional.
Vanta让它自动化实现。
Vanta makes it automatic.
全球10,000家公司信任Vanta，包括Atlassian、Quora、Chili Piper和Factory。
10,000 global companies trust Vanta, including Atlassian, Quora, Chili Piper, and Factory.
立即访问vanta.com/tedaudio注册免费演示。
Visit vanta.com/tedaudio to sign up for a free demo today.
网址是vanta.com/tedaudio。
That's vanta.com/tedaudio.
本节目由AT&T为您呈现。
This message is brought to you by AT and T.
要知道，我们花了大量时间在此甄别事实与主张。
You know, we spend a lot of time here separating fact from claim.
在移动网络领域，这种区分至关重要。
And when it comes to mobile networks, that distinction matters.
当AT&T提出主张时，那是您可以信赖的。
When AT and T makes a claim, it's one you can count on.
AT&T是美国最快、最可靠的无线网络。
AT and T is America's fastest and most reliable wireless network.
这并非主观看法。
And that's not opinion.
该数据基于RootMetrics美国网络评分报告（2025年1月），采用市售最佳智能手机，在全美三大移动运营商所有可用网络类型下测试得出。
It's data based on RootMetrics United States Root Score Report, 01/2025, tested with best commercially available smartphones on three national mobile networks across all available network types.
实际体验可能有所不同。
Your experiences may vary.
RootMetrics排名并非对AT&T的官方认可。
RootMetrix rankings are not an endorsement of AT and T.
玛丽·埃伦·马修斯以她为《周六夜现场》拍摄的数百张名人肖像而闻名，她是该节目的首席摄影师。
Mary Ellen Matthews is best known for hundreds of celebrity portraits she has taken for Saturday Night Live, where she is chief photographer.
一个人是如何成为《周六夜现场》首席摄影师的？
How does one become chief photographer for SNL?
这就是我在2023年采访她时想了解的内容。
That's what I wanted to find out when I interviewed her in 2023.
所以你还在唱片公司做过音乐宣传的工作。
So you also had a job in music publicity at a record label.
我记得那家公司叫TVT。
I believe it was called TVT.
TVT。
TVT.
没错。
Yep.
那么这是你在MTV之后的工作吗？
And so was that the job that you had after MTV?
离开MTV后，我同时还在K Rock电台实习，那是一家摇滚电台，当时还播放霍华德·斯特恩的节目，我在那里当实习生。
After MTV, I also, at the same time, interned for K Rock, which was a rock and roll radio station that had Howard Stern ninety two three back in those days, and I was an intern there.
所以我同时做了两份工作。
So I did two at once.
但我想，反正我就在城里。
But I was like, I was in the city.
不如到处跑跑，积累各种经验。
I might as well go there to there and get all this experience.
嗯，这就是这段经历的故事。
And, well, this is this is a story.
太棒了。
Excellent.
所以当这两件事完成后，我有了份简历，上面有这两段经历还算不错。
So when that when those two things were done, I had a resume now, you know, which wasn't too bad having those two things on it.
那时候我就想去唱片公司工作。
And so I just wanted to work at a record label at that time.
我把简历打印出来装进文件夹，然后穿上西装。
And I had my I had to print them out printed them out, and I had them in a folder, and I put on the suit.
就像，你去草莓音乐节之类的场合
Like, you went you went to, like, Strawberry or something and got
Dress Barn（服装店名，保留不译）。
Dress Barn.
The Dress Barn（服装店名，保留不译）。
The Dress Barn.
然后
And
我买到了西装外套和长裙，装备齐全。
I got the the blazer and the long skirt, and I had the thing.
我当时走遍了中城的每一家唱片公司，然后看到了一个大型电影拍摄现场。
And I was walking around to every record label in Midtown, and I saw this big movie set.
我这辈子从没见过这种场面。
I've never seen one before in my life.
我就这样走向那个工作人员。
And I kinda walked up to the guy.
有个戴着那种耳机和麦克风设备的人。
There was a guy who had these kind of headsets on and a and a, like, a a microphone thing.
他在警戒线后面负责维持秩序。
And he was kinda in charge behind these ropes.
我问他：'你是怎么做到这样的？你具体是做什么工作的？'
And I said, how do you get to do like, what are you doing?
我向他请教了他的工作内容。
I kinda asked him about what he did.
我问，你是怎么做到的？
I said, how how do you do that?
他态度冷淡地说，你得认识圈内人，别在这儿逗留。
He's like, not, you know, you gotta know someone who, like, keep moving.
根本不想和我多聊。
Not did not wanna have any conversation with me.
然后我听到有人说，打扰一下，小姐。
And then I hear, excuse me, miss.
小姐。
Miss.
原来是比尔·默瑞站在警戒线区域内，他说：能帮我个忙吗？
And it was Bill Murray in the middle of the the cordoned off area, and he said, can you help me?
或者能帮我和朋友们拍张照吗？
I or or can you take a picture of me and my friends?
他拿着个小型相机。
He had a can like, a little camera.
我说，嗯，当然可以。
And I said, well, sure.
拍完照片后，我说，能给我签个名吗？
Took a picture, and I said, can I have your autograph?
而我带着我的简历。
And I had my resume.
他当时说，你在找工作吗？
And he was like, are you looking for a job?
我说，好啊。
I said, yeah.
他说，你想为我工作吗？
He goes, do you wanna work for me?
我说，当然想。
I was like, sure.
然后他就开始安排，把我拉到一边，交给某人说让她明天开始当助理。
And he kinda put that into motion, took me aside, put me in somebody's hands to say start her tomorrow as a PA.
那可真是旋风般的经历。
So that was a big whirlwind.
然后我走向公用电话亭准备打给妈妈告诉她这个消息，就像人们常做的那样。
And then I was walking to a payphone to call my mom to tell her, as you do.
那时候，人们都是用公用电话联络的。
Back then, you'd call on the payphone.
正当我告诉她时，罗伯特·普兰特和他的乐队——我记得那时他们叫蜜糖滴落者——正从旁边走过，看起来特别摇滚范儿。
And, I'm telling her, and then Robert Plant and his band, I I think were the honey drippers at that time, were walking by, like, looking super rock and roll.
这事发生在42街靠近中央车站的地方。
And this was on 42nd Street by the the the Grand Central.
哦，中央车站啊。
Oh, Grand Central.
没错。
Yeah.
就是中央车站。
Grand Central.
是啊。
Yeah.
他们正走向一家纪念品商店。
So they were walking to a souvenir shop.
我和他们都看到他们走进去。
They and I saw them walk in.
我当时就想，得跟上去。
I was like, gotta go.
咔嚓。
Click.
我也走进去，向他索要签名。
And I walked in, and I asked him for his autograph.
他问我，你在找工作吗？
And he said, you're looking for a job?
我回答，是的。
And I said, yep.
然后他说，好吧，去大西洋唱片公司，找某某谈谈，就说是我让你去的。
And then he's like, well, go to Atlantic Records, talk to so and so, tell them I sent you.
虽然那个机会没成，但参与一部叫《快变》的电影却成功了。
So that didn't pan out, but working on a movie that was called Quick Change did.
就这样我和比尔·默瑞成了朋友，这跟《周六夜现场》完全没关系。
And, that's how I became friends with Bill Murray, and it had nothing to do with SNL.
对。
Right.
我是说，我觉得最巧合的是你最终...我是说，他后来肯定回来当过客座主持吧？
I mean, that's the part that I think is so serendipitous that you ended up I mean, he had to have come back as a guest host.
确实来过。
He did.
就是在你为《周六夜现场》工作之后那段时间。
In the time after while you were working at Saturday Night Live.
他确实来过。
He did.
那他
And what did he
是啊。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
他对这事怎么看？对。
What did he think of this Right.
你们的人生轨迹以这种方式交汇？
Sort of way in which your lives sort of intersected?
我想我可能告诉过他，比如给他留了个消息之类的。
I think I might have told him, like, you know, left him a message or something.
你知道的，我有办法联系到他那边的人，就说了句，你知道的，就是让你知道一下。
Like, you know, I had some way to contact his people or something and just to said, you you know, just so you know.
所以他在那儿见到我时挺有趣的，不过我想他多少知道一点。
So it was pretty funny when he saw me there, but I think he knew a little bit.
不过确实。
But yeah.
在和比尔·默瑞合作完那部电影后，我了解到你后来转到了其他剧组的摄影部门工作。
After the movie with Bill Murray, I read that you then moved on to the camera department on other productions.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那时候你还参与过哪些其他电影的制作？
What other movies did you work on back in those days?
我曾在一档电视节目工作过。
I worked on a TV show.
我记得节目叫《紧急呼救911》，是在NBC播出的。
I think it was called Emergency nine one one, and it was on NBC.
我当时在摄影部门工作。
And I was in the camera department.
他们以前叫我'摄像机番茄'，我觉得这外号挺有趣的，不过现在可能就不太合适了。
They used to call me the camera tomato, which, you know, I thought was hilarious, but then probably wouldn't go very far these days.
我当时是胶片装片员，还参与了《忍者神龟》的制作。
And I was a film loader, and I worked on teenage mutant ninja turtles.
然后我想那大概就是全部了。
And then I think that was I think that was it.
可能还有另一部，但后来不知怎么我就进入了TVT。
There might have been another one, but but and then I I fell into TVT somehow.
我不太记得从那里到那里的具体过程，但我想我只是回到了唱片公司工作。
I don't remember the the the from there to there, but I think I just went back to going to, the record company.
你当时想象的是什么？
What what did you imagine?
我是说，那是多么令人振奋的年代，八十年代末到九十年代初的纽约，整个音乐演变的方式。
I mean, this was such sort of heady times, those late eighties into the early nineties in New York City and the whole notion of the way music was evolving.
那真是太令人兴奋了。
It was so exciting.
作为一名艺术家，你曾预想自己的生活会是怎样的？
What did you envision your life was going to be like as an artist?
我知道我想成为一名摄影师，而且我觉得在唱片公司工作能让我更接近乐队。
I knew that I wanted to be a photographer, and I thought being at a record label could get me closer to the bands.
当然，每个人都想拍摄乐队，想要站在舞台旁边，参与演出后的聚会，从这些了不起的音乐艺术家那里获得创作灵感。
Of course, everybody wanted to shoot the bands and and be next be, you know, in at the show and and do the hang and and just get that creative push from from all these amazing musical artists.
所以我认为这是个不错的切入点，后来也确实如此。
So I thought that was a good entree, and that's what happened.
当我进入TBT后，我就开始工作了。
As I got into TBT, and I was working.
他们有个叫‘沙利文年代’的项目，买下了埃德·沙利文秀的版权。
They had a thing called the Sullivan years, and and they bought the rights to the Ed Sullivan show.
所以我和另一个人得把所有音频过一遍，分类整理，这还挺有意思的。
So me and another guy had to go through all of the audio and and put them in categories, which was sort fascinating.
哇。
Wow.
但非常、非常枯燥。
But very, like, like, stationary.
晚上我会出去拍摄所有乐队，因为你会收到很多这样的邀请。
And then I would go out at night and shoot all the bands because you'd get all these invitations to do so.
作为一个独立厂牌，你能看到非常多的乐队。
And being an independent label, there were so many bands you would get to see.
所以我就是这么做的。
So that's what I did.
后来我不得不离开，因为我并没有真正做好我的本职工作。
And then I had to leave because I wasn't really doing my job.
真是令人惊叹。
So wow.
哦，你更感兴趣的是...
Oh, you were more interested in Yeah.
做你热爱的事情。
In doing what you loved.
你有没有担心或害怕过无法靠摄影谋生？
Were you ever worried or afraid that you couldn't make a living as a photographer?
我是说，那些并不是那种稳操胜券的职业。
Mean, those aren't sort of slam dunk careers.
确实。
Sure.
而且，你知道，做时尚和那些大制作看起来就像远在山顶，遥不可及，这是肯定的。
And, you know, it was seem like, doing fashion and doing those big shoots seems so so far away at the top of the mountain, for sure.
然后，你会想，我该怎么到达那里呢？
And, you know, you just wonder, like, how am I gonna get there?
我该怎么解决这个问题？
How am I gonna figure this out?
而我在唱片公司的工作和在音乐行业的经历让我深入接触了那个世界。
And doing what I was doing at the at the label and working in music got me very far into that world.
不过，是的，那时候我有一份工作，谢天谢地。
But, yeah, there was I had a job, thank god, at the time.
但确实如此。
But yeah.
所以我离开了。
So I left.
我离开的原因在于，我成为了一名公关人员，我们负责九寸钉乐队，这一切都非常令人兴奋。
And the reason I left was be I mean, I was became a publicist, and we had Nine Inch Nails, and that was all very exciting.
因此，那是整个经历中完全不同的另一部分。
And so that was a whole other other part of it all.
但我离开的首要原因，我想是被要求离开的。
But the reason I left was because I think I was asked to leave, number one.
然后，我又一次走到街对面。
And, I went again, I went to walked across the street.
那里有个投币电话，我去查了查我的语音信箱。
There was a pay phone, and I went to check my answering machine.
对吧？
Right?
我们那时候就这样，对吧？
That's what we the right?
你还记得那样做吗？
Do you remember doing that?
就是，比如说，
Like, like,
哔哔声。
beep beep.
完全记得。
Absolutely.
哔。
Beep.
我父亲对我有答录机感到震惊。
My dad was appalled that I had an answering machine.
1983年我在第一间公寓就装了答录机。
I got an answering machine in my first apartment in 1983.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
他简直不敢相信自己养出了一个如此自恋的孩子，居然需要知道她不在家时谁给她打过电话。
And he couldn't believe that he had raised a a a child that was so narcissistic that she needed to know who called her when she wasn't home.
呃。
Ugh.
他会说，他们就不能等你回来再打吗？
He was like, can't they just call you back?
没错。
Right.
没错。
Right.
没错。
Right.
没错。
Right.
老爸，跟上时代吧。
Dad, just get with the times.
恰到好处的程度
The right extent.
他其实没错
He has he's not wrong,
不过从某种角度来说
though, in a way.
对
Right.
但确实
But right.
是啊
Yeah.
然后事情就这样发生了，你会觉得好吧
So then that happened, and you'd be like, okay.
得去查查我的答录机
Gotta check my answering machine.
得检查我的电话答录机。
Gotta check my answering machine.
于是我查看了答录机，另一位公关的朋友詹妮弗·格罗斯——她非常出色——给我留言说，我知道你喜欢摄影。
So I checked my answering machine, and a friend of this other publicist, Jennifer Gross, who's amazing, left me a message saying, I know you're into photography.
我要离开与埃迪·巴斯金在《周六夜现场》的这份工作了。
I'm leaving this job with Edie Baskin at Saturday Night Live.
你想和她面试吗？
Do you wanna interview with her?
就在同一天我穿过了马路。
That was the same day I walked across the street.
我当时想，再见。
I was like, bye.
然后我就改变了。
And then I changed.
我这么做了，所以这也是机缘巧合。
I did so that was serendipitous also.
于是我参加了那份工作的面试，最终为艾米·巴斯金工作。
So I interviewed for the job, and I ended up working for Amy Baskin.
那是什么样的经历？
What was that like?
太棒了。
Amazing.
她作为导师对我非常好，让我了解这个节目是什么，以及在那里担任摄影师这份工作的意义。
She was so wonderful to me, as a mentor as to get to know what the show was and what this job was to to be the photographer there.
显然，你知道，她用她所有的照片和图像定下了基调。
Obviously, like, you know, she set the tone with all her her photographs and images.
你于1993年以Edie Baskin助理的身份加入了《周六夜现场》。
You joined Saturday Night Live as Edie Baskin's assistant in 1993.
嗯。
Mhmm.
Edie就是那位创作了节目商业广告前后播放的片头片尾图像的摄影师，那些图像会展示当期节目的主持人。是的。
Now Edie was the photographer who created the bumper images that are seen before and after the show's commercial breaks that feature the episode's host Yep.
并且还会介绍音乐嘉宾。
And also introduce the musical guest.
是的。
Yes.
那为什么叫它缓冲画面呢？
Now why is it called a bumper?
因为它会切入广告，或者切入节目。
Because it bumps into commercial, or it bumps into the show.
这是有原因的。
There's a reason for it.
每个地方市场，因为是直播电视，都需要有一个统一切回节目的节点。
And each local market, because it's live television, has to have a place where it all meets to go back to the show.
有意思。
Interesting.
有些画面停留时间更长。
And some linger longer.
比如在堪萨斯城，可能会停留一分钟，但在纽约，有时‘嘟’一声就切走了。
Like, in Kansas City, it may hang there for a minute, but, you you know, sometimes in New York, it goes boop, and it's out.
所以这取决于
So it just depends
具体情况。
how it goes.
当时艾迪首创性地将她的摄影作品作为节目的图形元素。
Now Edie initiated using her photography as a graphic element to the show.
她运用非常规技术让照片生动起来。
She used unusual techniques to bring the photos to life.
嗯。
Mhmm.
其中包括手工为照片上色。
That included hand coloring the photographs.
谈谈在那个时期与艾迪共事的感受吧，当时《周六夜现场》也正处于鼎盛阶段。
Talk about what it was like to work with Edie at that time at this moment when Saturday Night Live was also really in its heyday.
嗯。
Mhmm.
是啊。
Yeah.
九十年代那会儿，
In the nineties second,
你知道，算是《周六夜现场》的第二阶段，在原版之后
you know, sort of Saturday Night Live two point o after the original
没错。
Yep.
确实。
True.
后来八十年代经历了一段低谷期，当时劳伦短暂离开过，之后节目又回归了。
And then the time it went through in the eighties when Lauren left for a little bit, and then it came back.
随着技术手段的更新，节目形态也开始发生变化。
And things started to change as far as the techniques that were becoming available.
所以她在这方面非常具有实验性，尝试了宝丽来转印等各种技术。
So she was very experimental with that, a Polaroid transfers and all kinds of things.
所以能在那个时期进入工作室，当演员阵容如此——我是说，那都是他们的黄金时代，尤其是亚当·桑德勒和菲尔·哈特曼在的时候。
So to be in the in the studio at that time when the the cast was such a I mean, they're all a heyday, but it was the Adam Sandler and Phil Hartman.
光是知道那段时光就令人惊叹，当我刚开始时，看着她与主持人、演员阵容以及劳伦的合作。
And just to know that time was amazing when I first started and see her work with the with the host and the cast and Lauren.
要知道，没有比这更好的方式来了解这档节目及其对每个人的意义了。
You know, there's no better way to get to know the show and what it means to everyone.
玛丽·艾伦·马修斯在2023年。
Mary Ellen Matthews in 2023.
我想播放的最后一个片段是我与林恩·戈德史密斯的访谈，她在八十年代拍摄了许多标志性的音乐场景照片。
The last excerpt I wanna play for you is one from my interview with Lynn Goldsmith, who took many, many iconic photos of the music scene in the nineteen eighties.
节选很短是因为音频质量不太好，但我真的很想让你听听这个精彩的故事。
The excerpt was brief because the audio quality isn't great, but I really wanted you to hear this amazing story.
我在2023年通过Zoom和琳恩进行了交谈。
I spoke with Lynn via Zoom in 2023.
1964年2月9日，披头士乐队首次在美国电视直播节目中亮相，超过7000万人观看了这四位来自利物浦的年轻人在《埃德·沙利文秀》上创造历史。
On 02/09/1964, the Beatles made their first live US television appearance, and more than 70,000,000 people watched these four young men from Liverpool make history on The Ed Sullivan Show.
琳恩，你是我遇到的唯一一个当晚亲眼目睹披头士在那档节目现场表演的人。
Lynn, you are the only person I've ever encountered who saw the Beatles perform live on that show that night.
能聊聊那段经历是怎样的吗？
Can you talk a little bit about what that experience was like?
是的。
Yes.
我的继父...我母亲在我14岁左右再婚了。
My stepfather my my mother remarried when I was about 14.
那时我母亲已经做了十年的单亲职业女性，我们三个女人一直住在底特律。突然被告知要搬去迈阿密海滩，还多了个父亲。
So this is after ten years of my mom being a single working mother and living in a household of three women in Detroit when suddenly I'm told we're moving to Miami Beach, and now I have this father.
我当时并不接受这件事。
I wasn't really receptive to that.
我不想搬家。
I didn't wanna move.
我原本很期待能去芒福德高中上学。
I was looking forward to starting at Mumford High School.
所以我真的不喜欢乔治——我的新继父，也不愿意搬到那个和我成长环境截然不同的地方。
So I really didn't care for George who was my new stepfather and to move to this place, which was so different from where I had grown up.
我成长的世界是种族多元化的。
The world that I grew up in was racially diversified.
迈阿密海滩则不是。
Miami Beach was not.
这一切对我来说都显得如此陌生，而且现在我们变得富有。
And it it all looks so different to me, and now we were wealthy.
我的继父在迈阿密海滩拥有多家酒店。
My stepfather owned hotels in Miami Beach.
因为他希望我爱上这些酒店，并意识到他是真心想当个好父亲。
And because he wanted me to love them and to realize that he wanted to be a dad.
他决定让我有机会在披头士乐队演出前抵达迪维尔酒店时，能在大堂见到他们。
He decided to get the opportunity for me to be in the lobby when the Beatles arrived at the Deauville Hotel before the show.
我还和他一起拿到了演出门票。
I also had tickets for the show with him.
我不想去。
I didn't wanna go.
我母亲说我说过，乔治根本不知道我是谁。
My mother said that I said, George has no idea who I am.
你知道吗？
You know?
我是个节奏布鲁斯女孩。
I'm a rhythm and blues girl.
我来自底特律。
I'm Detroit.
我是汽车城的孩子。
I'm Motor City.
我对这些软弱的披头士毫无兴趣。
I have no interest in these wimps, the Beatles.
我母亲说，听着琳恩，如果要在乔治和你之间做选择，我会选乔治。
My mother said, well, you know, Lynn, if I have to choose between George and you, I'm choosing George.
所以你最好打起精神，去惊艳全场。
So you better get your act together and go Wow.
和乔治一起。
With George.
于是我们就去了，我当时带着相机，因为我刚参观完几家酒店，完全被它们的装潢震撼了。
And so we we went, and I was you know, I had my camera because I had already had a tour of hotels and was just floored by what they looked like.
要知道，从底特律来到枫丹白露、多维尔或伊甸岩这些酒店，那种色彩与光影交织的魔幻世界，我从未见过那样的景象。
I mean, when you come from Detroit to go into the Fountain Blue or the Deauville or any of the Eden Rock, you know, it was like some magical world of color and light, and I'd never seen anything like that.
所以我带着继父和相机去了，特别开心地拍摄多维尔酒店那些图案惊艳的地毯。
So I went with my stepdad and my camera, and I was very happy photographing the carpets of the Deauville Hotel that had these amazing designs.
当披头士进门时，我还没有在场的男摄影师们高。
When the Beatles came through the door, I wasn't as tall as the men that were there.
当时在场的全是男性摄影师。
It was all men photographers.
我的继父轻轻推了我一下，于是我拍下了他们踩在地毯上的脚。
And my stepfather kinda pushed me forward, and I took a picture of their feet on the carpet.
但我其实并不想直视他们。
But I I didn't wanna really look at them.
不知怎的，我觉得那会是对滚石乐队的背叛。
I somehow felt it would be a betrayal to the Rolling Stones.
你明白吗？
You know?
你选择了。
You chose.
没错。
Right.
那时候你必须做出选择。
Back then you had to choose.
是啊。
Yeah.
你选择了。
You chose.
你必须是滚石乐队或披头士乐队的粉丝。
You were either a Stones fan or a Beatles fan.
我记得的是约翰·列侬抓住我的手臂和前臂说，斯坦利不会离开冰面。
You know, what I remember was John Lennon grabbing my arm and my forearm and saying, Stanley won't off the ice.
我只觉得自己被传染了什么，像是被他碰过一样。
And I just thought I had the cooties, like he touched me.
操。
Fuck.
我就直接说了不，然后把胳膊抽了回来。
And I just said no, and I pulled my arm away.
这一幕被当地报纸的人看到了，他们问我能不能冲洗我的胶卷，然后登了个小报道。
And it was seen by someone from the local newspaper who asked if they could process my film, and they ran a little story.
你知道，那其实是我第一张公开发表的照片。
You know, that was really my first published photograph.
2023年的林恩·戈德史密斯。
Lynn Goldsmith in 2023.
您可以在我们的网站designmattersmedia.com或任何播客平台收听完整访谈及数百位设计师、艺术家、音乐家、作家、表演者和科学家的访谈内容。
You can hear the full interviews and hundreds of other interviews with a wide range of designers, artists, musicians, writers, performers, and scientists on our website, designmattersmedia.com, or wherever you get your podcasts.
下周我们将带来另一期特别节目《设计那些年——我做设计访谈的岁月》。
We'll be back next week with another special episode called from the many years I've been doing design matters.
希望你们喜欢这些特别节目，因为我非常享受制作它们的过程。
I hope you're enjoying these special episodes because I'm really enjoying making them.
是的。
Yes.
这是《设计重要》播客开播的第二十个年头，感谢各位听众一直以来的支持。
This is the twentieth year we've been podcasting Design Matters, and I'd like to thank you for listening.
请记住：我们既可以讨论如何创造改变，也可以实际创造改变，或者两者兼行。
And remember, we can talk about making a difference, we can make a difference, or we can do both.
我是黛比·梅尔文，期待很快再次与您畅谈。
I'm Debbie Melvin, and I look forward to talking with you again soon.
《设计重要》由TED音频联盟与Curtis Fox制作公司联合制作。
Design Matters is produced by the TED Audio Collective by Curtis Fox Productions.
访谈通常在纽约市视觉艺术学院品牌硕士项目中进行录制，这是全球首个且历史最悠久的品牌项目。
The interviews are usually recorded at the masters in branding program at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, the first and longest running branding program in the world.
《设计重要》媒体的主编是Emily Weiland。
The editor in chief of Design Matters Media is Emily Weiland.
想要改变效率游戏规则吗？
Wanna change the efficiency game?
用AI来实现。
AI it.
自动化繁琐任务，将更多时间投入未来。
Automate tedious tasks to spend more time on the future.
与西门子一起改变日常。
Transform the everyday with Siemens.
今年想要一个更平静的感恩节吗？
Want a calmer Thanksgiving this year?
Ruby的感恩节指南能帮上忙。
Ruby's Thanksgiving guide can help.
里面包含厨师测试过的食谱、清晰的逐步技巧和简短视频课程，让烹饪更易掌控且更美味。
Inside, you'll find chef tested recipes, clear step by step techniques, and short video lessons that make the meal easier to manage and more delicious.
它非常适合主人、帮手以及任何想自信而非紧张地下厨的人。
It's perfect for hosts, help ers, and anyone who wants to cook with confidence instead of stress.
仅需25美元即可获得。
All for just $25.
让今年成为你最轻松的感恩节。
Make this your easiest Thanksgiving yet.
前往robey.com获取指南。
Get your guide at robey.com.
网址是rouxbe.com。
That's rouxbe.com.
认识Pura four，全年智能家居香氛的明智之选。
Meet Pura four, the smart way to scent your home year round.
订阅12个月并享受30天无风险试用，即可免费获得香薰机。
Get your diffuser free when you subscribe for twelve months plus a thirty day risk free trial.
优惠结束前请访问pura.com。
Visit pura.com before this offer ends.
如果
If
你用过Babbel，你就会明白。
you've used Babbel, you would.
Babbel基于对话的教学方法教你实用的单词和短语，让你能快速谈论现实生活中真正会聊到的话题。
Babbel's conversation based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world.
由200位语言专家精心设计课程，并由地道母语者配音，Babbel就像你口袋里的私人导师。
With lessons handcrafted by the 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket.
立即开始用Babbel说外语。
Start speaking with Babbel today.
现在访问babbel.com/acast（拼写为babbel.com斜杠acast），可享受高达55%的订阅优惠。
Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com/acast, spelled babbel.com/acast.
规则与限制可能适用。
Rules and restrictions may apply.
嘿。
Hey.
我是来自TED播客《工作生活》的亚当·格兰特，本期节目由ServiceNow赞助播出。
It's Adam Grant from Ted's podcast, Work Life, and this episode is brought to you by ServiceNow.
人工智能的强大程度取决于它所依托的平台。
AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into.
因此，超过85%的财富500强企业使用ServiceNow人工智能平台也就不足为奇了。
That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 companies use the ServiceNow AI platform.
当其他平台将工具生硬拼凑时，ServiceNow无缝整合人员、数据、工作流程和人工智能，连接企业各个角落。
While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows, and AI, connecting every corner of your business.
借助自主协作的AI智能体，任何部门的员工都能专注于最重要的工作。
And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most.
了解ServiceNow如何让人工智能为人类服务，请访问servicenow.com。
Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com.
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