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嘿。
Hey.
我是贾斯汀·里士满，《破碎唱片》播客的主持人。
This is Justin Richmond, host of the Broken Record podcast.
与联合主持人莉亚·罗斯一起，我们将与你喜爱的艺术家们深入对话，获取无与伦比的创作洞见。
Join me along with cohost Leah Rose as we sit down with the artists you love to get unparalleled creative insight.
你将听到与保罗·西蒙、亚瑟小子、皮特·汤森、街头霸王乐队主唱戴蒙·阿尔本以及蜜西·艾略特等音乐界传奇人物的深度访谈。
You'll hear revealing interviews with some of the most legendary figures in music like Paul Simon, Usher, Pete Townsend, Damon Albarn of the Gorillas, and Missy Elliott.
还会听到像爵士乐手莱维这样的新秀故事，她向我讲述了疫情期间迅速成名的经历。
And you'll hear from up and comers like jazz artist Leve, who told me about her fast rise to fame during the pandemic.
请在iHeartRadio应用或你常用的播客平台收听《破碎唱片》。
Listen to Broken Record on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
这里是来自designobserver.com的黛比·米尔曼主持的《设计重要》。
This is design matters with Debbie Millman from designobserver.com.
十四年来，黛比·米尔曼持续与设计师及其他创意人士探讨他们的工作、成长历程以及正在思考和实践的创意项目。
For fourteen years now, Debbie Millman has been talking with designers and other creative people about what they do, how they got to be who they are, and what they're thinking about and working on.
在本期播客中，黛比·米尔曼将与迈克尔·奥维茨畅谈他作为好莱坞权力经纪人的漫长而充满争议的职业生涯。
On this podcast, Debbie Millman talks with Michael Ovets about his long and controversial career as a Hollywood power broker.
当你身处风暴中心时，确实很难看清周围的状况。
When you're in the eye of the storm, you really don't see around you very well.
接下来有请黛比为我们带来赞助商信息。
Here's Debbie with a word from our sponsors.
我要感谢两位赞助人，他们的支持让《设计至关重要》得以持续制作。
I'd like to thank two of the patrons that help make Design Matters possible.
Wix.com将构建动态网站的创意力量重新交到设计师手中。
Wix.com puts the creative power of building dynamic websites back into the hands of designers.
任何使用过所见即所得平台的人都知道，所见未必即所得。
As anyone who has spent time in a WYSIWYG platform knows, what you see isn't necessarily always what you get.
另一方面，对某些人来说，很容易陷入代码的细节而忽略整体。
On the flip side, for some, it's far too easy to get lost in code and lose the forest for the trees.
Wix.com让您找到个人最佳平衡点，通过拖拽编辑器掌控网站，提供数百项高级设计功能，包括视网膜级图片库、自定义字体集、高清视频和视差滚动效果，甚至提供无需服务器、零烦恼的编码方案，打造强大的网站和应用。
Wix.com allows you to find your own personal sweet spot and take control of your site with their drag and drop editor, hundreds of advanced design features such as retina ready image galleries, custom font sets, HD video, and parallax scrolling effects, and even serverless, hassle free coding for robust websites and applications.
通过Wix.com，你将前所未有地完全掌控自己的网页设计。
With wix.com, you have total control of your web design like never before.
快来免费加入Wix全球设计师、艺术家和创意人士的精彩社区，问问自己：今天你要创造什么？
So join Wix's brilliant community of designers, artists, and creatives at large around the world for free and ask yourself, what will you create today?
你的团队是否正在从零开始设计应用？是否在重塑品牌视觉风格？或许正在着手像改造品牌全链路客户旅程这样的大项目？
Is your team designing an app from scratch, rethinking the look and feel of your brand, maybe taking on something massive like transforming your brand's entire customer journey?
别再用老方法了——通过无数邮件来回传递数不清的零散设计稿。
Well, don't do it the old way, passing numberless one off comps through endless emails.
相反，在一个地方就能完成所有工作。
Instead, do it all in one place.
现在就用Adobe XD新推出的入门计划免费实现吧。
Do it in Adobe XD now for free with the new starter plan.
Adobe XD将设计、原型制作和共享功能整合在单一解决方案中。
Adobe XD combines the ability to both design, prototype, and share in a single solution.
其创意与生产力的结合能让团队消除瓶颈并简化工作流程。
Its combination of creativity and productivity lets your teams eliminate bottlenecks and simplify workflows.
他们现在可以创建一个交互式原型，并在同一平台上与团队成员和评审人员分享。
They can now create an interactive prototype and then share it with teammates and reviewers in a single place.
它适应现代创意需求，让您的团队能在Windows、iOS、网页等多种平台上随时随地工作。
It keeps up with today's creative demands by letting your team work when and where they want across Windows, iOS, the web, and more.
Adobe XD已帮助众多大品牌大规模改变了原型创建和评审的方式。
Adobe XD has helped big brands change the way they create and review prototypes at a large scale.
所以别再沿用老方法了。
So don't do it the old way.
使用Adobe XD——面向未来的设计平台，现已免费提供。
Use Adobe XD, the design platform for the future, available today for free.
欲了解更多信息，请立即访问xd.adobe.com。
For more information, visit xd.adobe.com today.
迈克尔·奥维兹改变了演艺产业的商业模式。
Michael Ovidz changed the business of show business.
1975年，他凭借2.1万美元贷款共同创立了创新艺人经纪公司，该公司迅速成为全球领先的艺人经纪机构。
In 1975, with a $21,000 loan, he co founded Creative Artists Agency, which quickly became the world's leading talent agency.
作为CAA的领导者，迈克尔的客户包括保罗·纽曼、芭芭拉·史翠珊和史蒂文·斯皮尔伯格。
As a leader of CAA, Michael's clients included Paul Newman, Barbara Streisand, and Steven Spielberg.
但奥维茨从来不仅仅是个好莱坞大亨。
But Ovitz has never been a mere Hollywood mogul.
多年来，他将自己的交易技巧运用在广告、金融和慈善领域。
Over the years, he's deployed his deal making skills in advertising, finance, and philanthropy.
换句话说，迈克尔·奥维茨拥有非凡且高度公开的职业生涯。
In other words, Michael Ovitz has had a remarkable and very public career.
他在新回忆录《谁是迈克尔·奥维茨？》中讲述了自己的故事。
He tells his side of the story in a new memoir, Who is Michael Ovitz?
迈克尔，欢迎来到《设计重要》。
Michael, welcome to Design Matters.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
迈克尔，我了解到在你成年后的某个阶段，你每天要洗手30次。
Michael, I understand that at one point in your adult life, you washed your hands 30 times a day.
不是一次性的，而是持续不断的。
Not at one time, all the time.
哦，所以现在还是这样？
Oh, so still?
你现在还这么做吗？
You still do that?
我有洁癖。
I'm a germaphobe.
而且我记得你还坚持不让助理碰你的食物。
And you also, I believe, insisted that your assistants not touch your food.
所以我当时很担心会生病。
So I was paranoid about getting sick.
这其实非常实际。
It's really it's actually quite practical.
这根本不是什么恐惧症。
It wasn't any kind of a phobia.
我只是不想生病。
I just didn't wanna get sick.
对我来说，生病就是浪费时间。
Getting sick, for me, was lost time.
我总是对医生每天看50个病人却不生病感到惊奇。
I always marveled at physicians when they would see 50 patients a day and not get sick.
后来我意识到他们的做法是在看每个病人前后都会洗手。
And then I realized what they were doing is they're washing their hands before and after every single patient that they would see.
所以我完全出于实际原因采用了这个做法。
So I adopted that protocol completely for practical reasons.
那你现在很喜欢用洗手液吗？
And are you a big fan of hand sanitizer now?
我不知道它是否有效，但我还是会用。
I don't know if it works, but I try it.
你出生在芝加哥。
You were born in Chicago.
你在加利福尼亚的圣费尔南多谷长大。
You grew up in California's San Fernando Valley.
你父亲是施格兰酒业的销售员，每周工作七天，一年三百六十五天无休。
Your dad was a Seagram's liquor salesman who worked seven days a week, three hundred and sixty five days of the year.
他曾希望开一家自己的酒类商店，但始终未能如愿，并教导你要掌控自己的命运，而不是为他人工作。
And he had hoped to open his own liquor store, but never did, and taught you that you needed to be in charge of your destiny instead of working for someone else.
这对你产生了多大的影响？
How much of an impact did that have on you?
嗯，我认为这对我影响深远。
Well, think it had a huge impact on me.
我是说，我看着父亲过着日本所谓的'工薪族'生活。
I mean, I watched my dad as what they would call in Japan a salaryman.
他收入微薄。
I mean, he made a very small living.
他工作非常努力。
He worked really hard.
但他一直想为自己工作，却始终凑不够钱买酒牌开一家酒铺，那是他毕生的抱负。
But he always wanted to work for himself and never could get the money together to buy a liquor license and open a liquor store, which was his life's ambition.
对我来说，从他与我的交谈中，光是观察他和他朋友们的状态，他那些为自己工作的朋友们明显过得更好。
And for me, what became instantly clear, just from his discussing it with me, just watching it and being around him and his friends, those of his friends who worked for themselves just had it better.
他们都是体力劳动者，蓝领工人。
And they were all manual blue collar workers.
一个是水管工，一个是邮递员。
One was a plumber, one was a postman.
没有一个是专业人士。
No one were professional people.
但以水管工为例，他有自己的管道生意。
But the plumber, for example, had his own plumbing business.
规模很小，只有两个人的团队。
It was small, two man organization.
但没人对他指手画脚。
But no one told him what to do.
我曾目睹父亲为他的雇主们苦苦挣扎，这对我来说是个简单的信号。
And I used to watch my dad struggle with the people that he worked for, and it was a simple signal for me.
别那么做。
Don't do that.
你小时候是名幼童军，我了解到你九岁时不仅获得了一条送报路线，实际上有两条。
You were a Cub Scout growing up, and I understand that when you were nine, you not only got one paver root, you actually got two.
为什么这么多？
Why so many?
嗯，我想我九岁时有点着魔了。
Well, I I guess I was a little possessed at nine years old.
我其实每周都需要钱，因为父母没钱，所以我挣多少就花多少。
I actually needed the money on a weekly basis, because my parents didn't have any money, so whatever I would make is what I used for spending money.
我意识到杰森家到我们住的那片区域——也就是我送报的路线——空出来了。
And I realized that the tract of Jason to where we lived, where I had a paper route, became available.
我主动要了那条路线，他们就给了我。
And I asked for it, they gave it to me.
坦白说，我多花了45分钟，收入就翻倍了。
And frankly, I added on another forty five minutes and doubled my take.
在你九岁那年，我想那对你而言是个相当关键的成长阶段，你发现了电影的世界。
When you were also nine years old, I guess nine years old was a fairly formative year for you, you discovered the world of movies.
我想知道你是否能和我们分享，就在离你家四个街区远的地方，你发现了什么。
And I was wondering if you can share with us what you found just four blocks away from your house.
我们住在圣费尔南多谷的联排别墅里，离我们四个街区远就是RKO制片厂。
We lived in a tract house in the San Fernando Valley, and four blocks from us was the RKO Studios.
要记得那个年代还没有恐怖主义这回事。
And let's remember this was a time when there was no such thing as terrorism.
那时也没有严密的安保措施。
There was no such thing as heavy security.
说真的，连围栏这种东西基本都不存在。
There 's no such thing as fences, really, to speak of.
所以我们经常去那里，特别是在夏令时做完工作后——通常五点到五点半结束，然后过去正好能赶上他们拍摄这些半小时电视节目的尾声，这些节目都是Archea公司制作的。
So we would go over there, especially during daylight savings time after we did our work, usually get done around 05:00, 05:30, and go over there and catch the tail end of them filming these half hour television shows that Archaea was making.
它们是黑白的，简直迷人极了。
And they were in black and white, and it was just absolutely fascinating.
当然，我们经常被赶走，但他们并不刻薄。
Of course, we always got thrown off a lot, but they weren't mean about it.
他们知道我们很快会回来，而我们也确实如此。
And they knew we'd come back soon, and we did.
大概每周两次，我们会溜进去，到不同的片场，试图融入——在那个年纪根本不可能——然后静静观看。
And probably twice a week, we would go over, sneak in, go to a different set, try to blend in, which was impossible at that age, and watch.
现在回想起来，这在我不知情的情况下对我产生了重大影响。
And as I look back, it was a major influence on me without me even knowing it.
1965年，少年时期的你得到了第一份真正想要的工作。
In 1965, as a teenager, you got the first job you actually wanted.
音乐公司美国正在环球影城后区重启其巡演项目。
Music Corporation of America was restarting its tour program on Universal Studios' back lot.
在你勤工俭学读大学期间，你利用所有空闲时间工作。
As you were putting yourself through college, you worked every spare hour.
我想有人可能会说，这甚至算不上是你勤奋的起点，毕竟你九岁时就同时做着好几份送报工作和幼童军活动。
And I guess one could argue that this really wasn't even the beginning of the evidence of your drive given how many paper routes you were doing and Cub Scouts at nine years old.
你认为当时是什么驱使你如此拼命？
What do you think at that time was driving you so hard?
原因始终如一。
It was always the same thing.
永远都是因为钱。
It was always finance.
我必须自己支付大学学费，所以不得不全职工作。
I had to put myself through college, so I had to work full time.
在加州大学洛杉矶分校时，我每周实际工作近60小时。
I actually worked almost sixty hours a week, when I was in UCLA.
这确实让我付出了代价，但我觉得值得，因为当时作为学生，我挣的钱已经相当可观。
And it took its toll, but it was worth it to me because I actually was earning quite a bit of money at the time for someone who was in school.
这让我能自给自足完成学业，还有余钱存下来，为未来可能发生的事情做准备。
And it allowed me to put myself through school, have extra money, and I needed to save money to get myself prepared for what might be coming up.
你在UCLA主修的是心理学。
Now you majored in psychology at UCLA.
为什么选择心理学呢？
Why why psychology?
我主修心理学，辅修商科，但原本是反过来的。
Well, had a major in psychology, a minor in business, and it was originally the other way around.
我认为理解人们如何处理信息、如何思考、真正的驱动力是什么、以及人们行为背后的真实原因非常重要。
I decided that it was really important for me to understand how people would process things and think, and what really drove them, and what were the real real reasons that people behaved the way they did.
因为我发现无论做什么工作——无论是在本地超市当理货员、送报童还是导游——
Because I could see that whatever I did, whether I was a box boy at the local supermarket, I was a paper boy, or I was a tour guide.
一切都与人际交往和行为方式有关。
Everything was about relationships with people and how they behaved.
我想了解他们行为背后的原因，当然也包括我自己的行为。
And I wanted to know what caused their behavior, including my own, by the way.
你是1968年3月从UCLA毕业的。
You graduated from UCLA in March in 1968.
你随后与大学时的恋人朱迪结婚，并向三家不同的艺人经纪公司递交了申请，分别是威廉·莫里斯、创意管理协会和杰·沃尔特·汤普森。
You then married your college sweetheart, Judy, and you applied to three different talent agencies, William Morris, Creative Management Associates, and Jay Walter Thompson.
没错。
Right.
最初是什么促使你想成为一名艺人经纪人的？
What motivated you to be a talent agent in the first place?
有趣的是，你父母其实非常希望你成为一名医生。
Interesting your parents really wanted you to be a doctor.
其实我在UCLA时曾短暂地选择了医学预科。
Well, I actually was pre med for a very short period of time at UCLA.
当时我在环球影城工作，后来被福克斯挖走，这完全是机缘巧合。
When I was working at Universal, I got hired away to go work at Fox, which was a total accident.
实际上我负责管理福克斯的游览部门，手下有75名员工。
And I actually ran the tour department at Fox and had 75 people working for me.
那时我甚至还不到21岁。
I wasn't 21 yet.
那是你每周挣600美元的时候吗？
Was that when you were making $600 a week?
是的。
Yes.
那件事真正让我坚定了决心。
And that really cemented everything for me.
还有另一件让我印象深刻的事，我记得在加州大学洛杉矶分校的一个大讲堂里，早上8点的课。
And the other thing that cemented something for me is I remember being in UCLA in a lecture hall, an 8AM lecture.
我选早上8点的课，这样我就能在9:30前赶到工作地点。
I took 8AM classes so I could get to work by 09:30.
我记得在一个大约有400个学生的大讲堂里，我疯狂地记着这门课的笔记。
And I remember being in a lecture hall with about 400 kids, and I remember writing furiously notes on this lecture.
我环顾四周，发现没有人在记笔记。
And I looked around, no one was writing a note.
下课后，我走到一个学生面前，他确实非常友善。
And when we were done, I went up to one of the kids, and he was really very nice.
我问道，是我有问题吗，怎么回事？
And I said, Is it me, what's the deal?
为什么没人记笔记？
Why was no one taking notes?
他看着我说，嗯，这也很基础啊。
And he looked at me and said, Well, it's also elementary.
那一刻我的医学预科生涯就结束了。
That was the end of my pre med career right there.
根本不需要太多推力就能让我放弃。
And it didn't take much to push me over.
所以
So
那为什么选择做人才经纪人？
So why a talent agent?
是什么让你
What gave you
其实，要知道，不仅仅是经纪人这一行。
Well, know, it wasn't just the talent agent.
你提到的第三家公司是
You mentioned the third company you mentioned was an
广告公司J。
advertising J.
沃尔特·汤普森，没错。
Walter Thompson, yes.
所以我决定投身与创意相关的领域，无论是人才经纪还是市场营销、品牌策划——这些你都再熟悉不过了。
So I decided I wanted to be in something that had to do with creativity, whether it be talent or marketing, branding, which you're very familiar with.
要有创造性的工作。
Something that was creative.
能创造知识产权的事业。
Something that created IP.
我了解到仅仅三个月后，你在第一份工作中就为洛杉矶的莫里斯集团高管工作。
I understand that a mere three months later at your very first job, you were working for the top Morris executive in Los Angeles.
但几个月后，你就被提升为初级经纪人。
But a few months after that, you were promoted to junior agent.
然而你并不开心，因为尽管获得了晋升，却错过了自己设定的职业发展时间节点。
However, you were really unhappy because despite the promotion, you had missed a self imposed deadline for your trajectory.
能谈谈那个时间节点的具体内容吗？为什么你要给自己施加这种压力？
Can you talk a little bit about what that deadline was and why you were putting yourself under that kind of pressure?
因为我总是为自己设定目标。
Because I've always set goals for myself.
我是个目标导向型的人，这辈子都是这样。
I'm very goal oriented, and I've done this my entire life.
那么具体是什么目标呢？
So what was the goal?
因为你要在120天内达到某个业绩节点，拥有特定数量的客户。
Because within a hundred and twenty days, you needed to be at a certain point with a certain number of clients.
你之前从未接触过这个行业，却为自己制定了如此宏大的目标。
You had never done this before, and yet you were sort of creating these audacious goals for yourself.
那一百二十天的期限其实是个噱头。
Well, the one hundred and twenty days was a stunt.
我的意思是，这完全是为了给自己争取一份工作。
I mean, it was completely done to get myself a job.
我去面试是因为我知道即将有一个面试机会。
I went in for I knew I had an interview coming.
我花了一个月时间争取这次与人力资源主管威廉·莫里斯的面试。
I spent a month trying to get this interview with the head of HR, William Morris.
我需要让自己与众不同，所以我必须做些出格的事。
And I needed to differentiate myself from everybody else, so I needed to go in and do something outrageous.
于是我想出了这个主意。
So I came up with this idea.
当我读到他们手册上说这是个为期三年的培训项目时，我就想出了这个一百二十天完成项目的主意。
When I read in their handbook, it's a three year training program, I came up with this idea that I could do the program in a hundred and twenty days.
顺便说，我当时根本不知道这个项目具体是什么。
By the way, I had no idea what the program was.
我完全不知道能否在一百二十天内完成。
I had no idea if I could do it in a hundred and twenty days.
我一无所知，但我想说些让人震惊的话。
I didn't know anything, but I was looking to say something that was a little shock and awe.
我进去后对那位人力资源主管说了这番话。
And I went in and I said this to the gentleman who was head of HR.
我得到了回应，这对我来说是很好的一课。
And I got a reaction, which was a great lesson for me.
他笑得前仰后合，真的从办公椅上摔了下来。
He started laughing so hard, he literally fell off his desk chair.
他说：'这是我听过最蠢的主意。'
He said, That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
当他说出那句话时，我就知道这份工作稳了，因为我打动了他。
The minute he said that, I knew I had the job because I moved him.
无论我是让他开怀大笑还是感动落泪都不重要。
And it didn't matter that I moved him to laughter or to tears.
这没什么区别。
It made no difference.
但他对我说，你被录用了。
But he said to me, You're hired.
他说，你绝不可能在120天内完成。
He said, you'll never do it in a hundred and twenty days.
我回答，如果我没做到，你可以拿回你的钱。
I said, if I don't, you get your money back.
那么你离目标有多接近？你又是如何面对自己——我都不愿用这个词——未能实现目标的'失败'的？
So how how close did you come, and how did you respond to your own, I guess, I hate to even use the word, failure at making this happen.
嗯，我本想120天内成为正式经纪人，但没能做到。
Well, I wanted to become an agent in a hundred and twenty days, and I didn't.
初级经纪人。
Well, junior agent.
初级。
Junior.
我讨厌‘初级’这个词。
I hate that word, junior.
后来我们在CA公司时，就废除了这个称谓。
And then when we at CA, we eliminated that.
你要么是合伙人，要么是经纪人，就这么简单。
You're either you were a partner, period, or an agent, and that or an and or agent, and that was it.
所以我实际上花了六个月就做到了。
So I actually made it in six months.
我非常幸运，通过加班让自己有机会接触到莫里斯公司的高管们。
And I got very lucky in that I put myself out in front of the senior executives at the Morris office by staying late.
我偶然发现公司总裁每晚6:30会与创始人共进晚餐，但最迟8点前一定会回来。
I discovered by accident that the president of the company would go to dinner with the founder at 06:30 every night, but he came back at a quarter to eight, literally by 08:00 at the latest every single night.
上班时间是早上9点。
So the call time was 9AM.
我7点就到公司，有时甚至6:30。
I came in at seven, sometimes 06:30.
晚上六点半或七点，当所有人都回家时，我就去行政楼层的第一张秘书桌前坐下工作。
And at 06:30 at night when everyone went home or seven, I went and positioned myself at the first desk on the Executive Floor on a secretarial desk and just sat there and worked.
果然不出所料，公司总裁回来后，没过三四天他就需要——PETER：某样东西。
And lo and behold, the president of the company would come back, and sure enough, three, four days into this, he needed -PETER: something.
现在是晚上九点。
It's 09:00 at night.
那你准备给谁打电话？
So who are gonna call?
你知道，不是
You know, not
我当时
I was
正想说，别让他们逼我说
gonna say, Don't make They me say
我实在忍不住了。
didn't I couldn't help myself.
于是他走出办公室，来到我面前说：'我需要你帮我处理些事情。'
So he came out of his office, and he came up to me and said, I need you to help me with something.
他没有询问。
He didn't ask.
他直接告诉我——我简直高兴得不得了。
He told me I couldn't have been happier.
所以他让我做的事，我都以百倍的努力完成了。
So what he asked me to do, I did to the hundredth power.
然后他每晚都邀请我做些别的事，事情就这样越来越多。
And then he invited me each night to do something else, and then it was more and more and more.
三周后，他的助理请病假，他特意给人力资源部打电话要求让我临时顶替助理职位。
And three weeks later, his assistant called in sick, and he made a specific phone call to the HR department asking for me to be his fill in assistant.
我去了之后，他还不习惯有人能陪他工作十四小时，因为他自己来得早走得晚。
I went in, and he wasn't used to someone being there fourteen hours with him, because he came in early as well, and he left really late.
我甚至比他还来得更早。
I came in earlier than he did.
我走得比他更晚。
I left later than he did.
但我为他安排好了一切，从办公桌上重要的事务到不那么紧急的事项。
But I arranged everything for him, from things that were important on his desk to things that were less important.
我替他回复信件，起草文件。
I answered letters for him, did drafts for him.
我让他的生活变得轻松多了。
I made his life really much easier.
他注意到了这点，认为我的工作方式展现出了潜力。
And he saw that, and he thought that the way that I functioned showed some promise.
所以他很快就提拔了我。
So he promoted me pretty quickly.
你描述与他关系时开头说自己很幸运。
You started this description about your relationship with him by saying that you got lucky.
但我实在不明白这其中有什么运气成分。
And I'm not really sure what luck had to do with any of that.
看啊，谁知道他会从办公室出来呢？
Look, who knew he was gonna come out of his office?
那只是我的一个猜测。
That was a guess I had.
要是他没从办公室出来或者不需要什么，谁知道会怎样呢？
If he didn't come out of his office or he didn't need anything, who knows?
那时候，不知道你还记不记得，我们用的是纸。
In those days, I don't know if you remember, but we used have a thing called paper.
哦，是啊。
Oh, yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我...我比
I'm I'm a lot older than
看起来年轻。
I look.
是啊。
Yeah.
嗯，你看上去年纪不够大，应该不记得那些事。
Well, you don't look old enough to remember.
我们那时有种叫油印机的东西。
And we had a thing called a mimeograph machine.
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
我上大学时用过那个。
I did that in college.
当时有成百上千页油印的邮件。
And there were hundreds and hundreds of pages of mimeographed mail.
噢，那种蓝色墨水。
Oh, that blue ink.
那些文件就堆在桌上，他晚上回到办公室后，才开始翻阅它们。
And it just sat on the desk, and then he'd come back to the office at night, and he'd start to go through it.
我观察了他的做法。
And I watched what he did.
他会在每份邮件的右上角给发件人写下简短回复，然后直接寄回去。
He wrote little notes to the senders at the top right hand corner of each piece and put it right back in the mail.
哇。
Wow.
偶尔，他会遇到需要复印或需要进一步答复的文件。
Occasionally, he would come to things that needed to be copied or he needed another answer on.
当时没有谷歌，意味着必须有人替他查找答案，而我就成了他的答案提供者。
There was no Google, which means someone had to go find an answer for him, and I became his answer man.
传奇编剧巴里·莱文森是你的第一个客户。
Legendary screenwriter Barry Levinson was your first client.
你职业生涯的第一个客户。
Your very first client.
在没有任何客户基础的情况下，你是怎么说服他聘请你当经纪人的？
How did you convince him to hire you to be his agent without any previous clients?
那晚我在家。
So I'm home one night.
是个周六晚上。
It's Saturday night.
当时是11:30，我正在看一档电视节目，那是《周六夜现场》非常早期的前身节目。
It's 11:30, and I'm watching a television show, which is the precursor, and I mean, really early precursor to Saturday Night Live.
由两位本地电台主持人洛曼和巴克利主持。
It was hosted by two local disc jockeys, Lohman and Barkley.
我正在看这档节目。
And I'm watching this show.
大约晚上11:50左右。
It's about ten to twelve at night.
突然有个家伙以滑冰拉比的形象出场。
And all of a sudden, some guy comes out as the roller skating rabbi.
我看着这个节目，几乎没有对白，而我笑得停不下来。
And I'm looking at this, and there's very little dialogue, and I can't stop laughing.
于是我看着滚动字幕，上面写着：滑冰拉比，巴里·莱文森。
So I watch the crawl, and it says, roller skating rabbi, Barry Levinson.
周一早上，我打电话到NBC，当地NBC电视台找他。
And Monday morning, I call him up at NBC, the local NBC station.
我要求找巴里·莱蒙森，没想到他真的接起了电话。
I ask for Barry Lemonson, lo and behold, he gets on the phone.
我说，我叫迈克尔·洛维茨。
And I said, My name is Michael Lovitz.
我是威廉莫里斯经纪公司的。
I'm with the William Morris Agency.
你不认识我，但我认识你。
You don't know me, but I know you.
然后我说，很抱歉。
And I said, I'm sorry.
我觉得你太棒了。
I think you're fantastic.
我想和你见面。
I'd like to meet with you.
他刚来到城里。
And he had just come into town.
他没有经纪人。
He didn't have an agent.
他谁也不认识。
He didn't know anybody.
所以这是晚餐之前，
So this was pre diner,
前Pre Oh。
pre Pre Oh.
嗯，在所有事情之前。
Well, pre everything.
是的。
Yeah.
他当时只是为当地一个市场电视节目写小品剧本。
He was just sketch writing for a local one market TV show.
我们开始交谈后，他立即与我签约了。
And we started talking, and he signed with me immediately.
他是我的第一个客户。
And he was my first client.
1975年，你和几位同事，包括迈克·罗森菲尔德、罗恩·迈耶和威廉·哈伯等人，决定离开威廉莫里斯公司自立门户。
In 1975, you and several of your colleagues, including Mike Rosenfeld, Ron Meyer, and William Haber, among others, decided to defect from William Morris and start your own agency.
为什么？
Why?
嗯，这一切都源于我们参加的一个非常简单的会议。
Well, we were this all goes back to a very simple meeting we were all in.
当时有每周的员工会议，所有人都可以参加。
There were these weekly staff meetings where everyone was allowed to attend.
这是个每周例行的电视会议。
And this was a weekly television meeting.
电影会议是分开的。
The film meetings were separate.
他们不相信将电影和电视融合，这在我们看来是商业上的重大失误。
They didn't believe in blending motion pictures and television, which by the way we felt was a giant mistake the way the business was going.
我们认为艺人可以跨界发展。
We felt that artists could cross over.
但撇开这点不谈，我们当时参加了一个会议，那对我们来说是个具有传奇色彩的会议。
But putting that aside, we were in a meeting, and it was an apocryphal meeting for us.
我和Ron Meyer坐在会议室后排，所有高管都固定坐在会议桌前同样的位置上。
I was sitting in the back of the room with Ron Meyer, and all the executives would sit at the table in the very same seats.
我们故意坐得尽可能靠后，就是为了表明一个观点，一个关于重要性的观点。
We would sit as far back as we could intentionally to make a point, a relevancy point.
那几乎像是在说：我们坐在这里，看似无关紧要，但其实我们很重要，因为我们年轻且了解当下真正重要的东西。
It was almost, we're back here, we're not relevant, but we really are because we're young and we understand what's important right now.
后来发生了一件事：我效力的总裁宣布他签下了一位名叫Ann Miller的歌舞女星。
And we had an incident where the president who I worked for made a big announcement that he had signed a song and dance lady named Ann Miller.
她并非没有才华，但已年近六旬，且主要活跃在百老汇舞台。
Not an untalented woman, but a woman in her late fifties who was mostly Broadway.
而我们当时正绞尽脑汁想着如何签下电影明星。
And we were sitting trying to figure out how to sign movie stars.
怎么才能签下保罗·纽曼？
How do you sign Paul Newman?
怎么才能签下罗伯特·雷德福？
How do you sign Bob Redford?
怎么才能签下达斯汀·霍夫曼？
How do you sign Dustin Hoffman?
怎么才能签下阿尔·帕西诺？
How do you sign Al Pacino?
怎么才能签下罗伯特·德尼罗？
How do you sign Bob De Niro?
而不是怎么签下安·米勒。
Not how do you sign Ann Miller.
我们是威廉·摩尔代理公司。
We're the William Moore's agency.
我们拥有非凡的客户名单。
We have extraordinary client list.
我们应该加强它。
We should beef it up.
值得称赞的是，罗恩·罗尼举手参与，并与所有高管据理力争，指出这对公司形象是个错误。
And Ron Ronnie, to his credit, raised his hand and got into it with all the senior executives that this was a mistake for the image of the company.
他们进行了强烈反击，确实让他们尝到了苦头。
And they pushed back really hard and really gave them blowback.
当我们离开时，我们发现自己坐在房间里讨论，认为这对业务是个错误方向。
And when we were leaving, we found ourselves sitting in a room talking, saying this is a bad direction for the business.
而这正是终结的开始。
And that was the beginning of the end.
你们在世纪城的小办公室里开业，用折叠椅和牌桌，希望创建一家中等规模的全方位服务代理公司，平等分配收益，并且不使用门上的名牌、正式头衔或个人客户名单。
You set up shop in a small office in Century City with folding chairs and card tables, and you were hoping to create a medium sized full service agency, share proceeds equally, and do without nameplates on doors, formal titles, or individual client lists.
你们甚至还制定了企业准则，比如要有团队精神、及时回复电话。
And you even had corporate guidelines such as be a team player and return phone calls promptly.
这些准则都是你一个人写的，还是大家共同制定的？
Did you write all of those guidelines, or was it a joint venture?
是我们一起完成的。
We we did it together.
我们在威廉莫里斯共事过很长时间。
We had a whole work together at William Morris.
我们清楚该做什么不该做什么。
We knew what to do and what not to do.
你们最初的目标是创建一家中型代理公司，考虑到你们如此目标明确，当看到业务飞速发展并最终成为行业巨擘时，是否感到意外？
With the goal of creating a a mid sized agency, especially given how goal oriented you'd been, were you surprised at how fast it all grew and how much of a behemoth it ultimately became?
罗恩和我并不感到意外。
Ron and I weren't surprised.
我们从一开始就有明确的规划。
We had a game plan from the beginning.
中等规模的全能型公司这个概念其实并非我们的初衷。
The concept of being a mid sized full service company was really not our concept.
那是我们所有人共同讨论的结果。
That was a joint discussion we all had.
我们想建立一家主宰人才经纪业务的公司，并且我们有个理念：要代理100%的人才。
We wanted to build a talent agency that dominated the talent business, and we had this thesis that we want to represent a 100% of the talent.
我们没太宣扬这点，因为这听起来太疯狂了，但实际上这是个好目标，非常好的目标。
And didn't say it too much because it sounded so insanely over the top, but the reality was it was a good goal, a good goal.
我们想代理所有有才华的人，并希望他们都在同一个屋檐下。
We wanted to represent anyone who was talented, and we wanted them all under the same roof.
我们希望他们同在一个屋檐下的原因是为了给他们议价权，因为制片公司、电视台、出版商、唱片公司掌握着主导权。
The reason we wanted them all under the same roof was to give them leverage because the studios, networks, publishers, record companies were in the driver's seat.
他们掌握着资金。
They had the money.
他们掌握着发行渠道。
They had the distribution.
当时存在巨大的行业壁垒。
There were huge barriers to entry.
如今情况大不相同。
Today, not so much.
现在我们正在做播客。
Today, we're doing a podcast.
根本不需要发行渠道。
There is no distribution.
你只需发布内容，就能获得关注。
You just put it up, and you get eyeballs.
如果内容优质，自然有人收听。
And if it's good people, listen.
如果质量不佳，就会被淘汰。
If it isn't, it goes by the wayside.
在那个年代，若无法接触那些发行商，你就一无所有。
In those days, if you didn't have access to those distributors, you had nothing.
所以我们的目标是扭转权力曲线，将其重新交还给人才。
So our goal was to flip the power curve and bring it back to the talent.
在你创业一周内，你就卖出了名为《押韵与理由》的游戏节目，还有《小富豪秀》，创新艺人经纪公司CAA就此正式崭露头角。
Within a week of starting your business, you sold a game show called Rhyme and Reason, and the Rich Little Show and Creative Artists Agency, CAA, was officially on the map.
在接下来的二十年里，你合作的演员包括保罗·纽曼、罗伯特·雷德福、达斯汀·霍夫曼、罗伯特·德尼罗、芭芭拉·史翠珊、麦当娜、贝特·米德勒、汤姆·克鲁斯和梅丽尔·斯特里普。
Over the next twenty years, you worked with actors including Paul Newman, Robert Redford, Dustin Hoffman, Robert De Niro, Barbara Streisand, Madonna, Bette Midler, Tom Cruise, and Meryl Streep.
还有喜剧演员和脱口秀主持人，包括比尔·默瑞和几乎整个原版《周六夜现场》的班底，大卫·莱特曼，以及导演史蒂文·斯皮尔伯格、前文提到的巴里·莱文森、奥利弗·斯通、朗·霍华德、斯坦利·库布里克和马丁·斯科塞斯。
Comedians and talk show hosts, including Bill Murray and pretty much the entire cast of the original Saturday Night Live, David Letterman, and directors including Steven Spielberg, the aforementioned Barry Levinson, Oliver Stone, Ron Howard, Stanley Kubrick, and Martin Scorsese.
你还参与策划制作了许多如今被视为经典的电影，从《窈窕淑男》、《大审判》、《金钱本色》，到《与狼共舞》、《辛德勒的名单》，再到《捉鬼敢死队》和《雨人》。
You also orchestrated the making of many films that are now considered classics, from Tootsie, The Verdict, and The Color of Money, to Dances with Wolves and Schindler's List, to Ghostbusters, and Rain Man.
所有这些精彩故事以及更多内容都收录在你出色的新回忆录《谁是迈克尔·奥维茨？》中。
All of these incredible stories and many many more are contained in your remarkable new memoir, Who is Michael Ovitz?
在我继续提问之前，我想先问你，是什么让你决定在这个特定时间写这本书？
So before I continue with my questions, I wanna ask you, what made you decide to write this book at this particular time?
其实这个决定并不是最近才做的。
So I didn't decide this recently.
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我已经为此工作了十年。
I've been working on this for ten years.
我们代理过许多出色的作家，我一直没有放弃这方面的工作，为汤姆·克兰西、迈克尔·克莱顿、史蒂芬·金等才华横溢的作家处理过大量事务。
We represented a lot of fantastic authors, and I never gave that up and did a lot of work for Tom Clancy, Michael Crichton, Stephen King, really brilliantly talented authors.
所以我和出版社有合作关系，其中一位出版商建议我选取经手的10个交易案例，写一本他们暂定名为《十笔交易》的书。
So I had relationships at the publishing houses, and one of the publishers suggested that I take 10 deals that I did and do a book that they titled working title, 10 Deals.
我挺喜欢把这些经历写下来的想法。
And I kinda like that idea of writing them down.
我特别想在早期阿尔茨海默症发作前完成这件事。
I particularly want to do it before I had early Alzheimer's.
于是我坐下来开始做笔记。
So I sat down, started making notes.
随着我提交笔记和书页，被问到的问题越来越多，问题接踵而至。
And as I turned in the notes and turned in the pages, I got asked more questions, and then more questions, and more questions.
我不断写作，不断填补交易之间的空白，或是促成交易的原因。
And I kept writing, and I kept filling in space about between the deals or what made the deal happen.
然后我开始补充我记得的故事。
And then I started filling in stories that I remembered.
大约四年前，我的大儿媳怀孕了。
And then about four years ago, my daughter-in-law got pregnant, my oldest son's wife.
我对自己说，天啊，我要有孙子了。
And I said to myself, my god, I'm gonna have a grandson.
我想我最好把所有事情都写下来，并且说出我的感受。
I think I better write everything down, and I better say how I feel.
然后我拿着已有的材料，在过去四年里不断修改完善。
And I then took what I had and started to reshape it and play with it over the last four years.
为什么书名是《谁是迈克尔·奥维茨》？
Why the title Who is Michael Ovitz?
这是个很好的问题。
It's a very good question.
这个书名源于我人生中想要认清自己的阶段——我是谁，我做了什么，为什么这么做。
The title is based on me coming to a point in my life where I wanted to know who I was, what I did, why I did it.
我本可以采取不同的做法吗？
Could I have done it differently?
我本可以做得更好吗？
Could I have done it better?
我本可能做得更糟吗？
Could I have done it worse?
而我为什么要那样做？
And why did I do what I did?
当我记录交易之间的故事时，我开始领悟到这些——如果你明白我的意思。
And I started to get that when I was writing between the deals, if you understand what I'm saying.
哦，当然明白。
Oh, absolutely.
令我震撼的是你在书中展现出的坦率脆弱与高度自省。
The thing that I'm struck by is how candidly vulnerable and self aware you are in the book.
你对自身许多行为和动机都极为苛刻，似乎在寻求对自身行为的理解，更试图剖析人类行为的普遍动机——这正是我觉得这本书最迷人的地方。
You're you're highly critical of a lot of your own behavior and motivations, and seem to be seeking an understanding not only of of your behavior, but sort of why people do what they do, which is what I found so fascinating about the book.
嗯，谢谢。
Well, thank you.
对我来说，重要的是要理解我经历过一个不惜一切代价求胜的时期。
For me, it's important that one understands that I went through a period where it was winning at all costs.
是的。
Yes.
时期。
Period.
而这造成了大量的附带损害。
And there was a lot of collateral damage to that.
我那时认为在服务行业，人必须无所不知，掌握大量信息，且不能显露任何弱点。
I felt that in a service business, one had to be all knowing, had to have a lot of information, and could show no vulnerability.
在链条中，如果有一个薄弱环节，整个链条就会断裂，整个服务业务就会螺旋式下滑。
That in the chain, if there was a weak link, the chain broke, and the service business would spiral.
我对这一点深信不疑，完全陷入了短视。
And I felt very strongly about this, and I was completely completely myopic about it.
这些想法中有多少是基于你对自己的感受？
How much of that was based on how you felt about yourself?
这真的很有趣。
It's really interesting.
它与任何个人因素都关系不大。
It it had little to do with anything personal.
这完全是一个商业理念。
It was all about a business idea.
核心就是让我们变得无懈可击。
It was all about let's be invulnerable.
让我们成为全知全能的存在。
Let's be the all knowing.
让我们占据所有云端优势，掌握全部筹码，把主动权重新交还给人才。
Let's be in a position where we have all the cloud, all the leverage, where we bring the game back to the talent.
游戏规则总是由对方制定，而我们的目标是尝试不同的策略。
The game was always on the other side, and our goal was to try something different.
别让人才低估自己的价值。
Let's not let talent sell their themselves short.
别让他们把自己的知识产权拿去拍卖给出价最高的人。
Let's not let them take their IP and auction it to the highest bidder.
我们应该把这些知识产权整合起来，与其他人才资源结合，扩展其价值，提升整体价值，然后再——如果你愿意这么说的话——将整个打包方案呈现给投资方，但在此之前绝不轻易出手。
Let's take that IP and put them together with other pieces of talent that can expand that IP, make it more valuable, and then bring the whole package, if you will, to the people that put up the money, but not until.
你几乎从未见过CAA会为单一作品、演员或导演进行拍卖。
You never saw almost ever out of CAA an auction for a singular piece of material or an actor or a director.
这种情况根本不存在。
It didn't exist.
从很多方面来说，你们重新定义了艺术家和人才在市场中自我定位的方式。
In many ways, you rebranded the way that artists and talent were positioning themselves in the marketplace.
我们的目标是让每位艺术家都能实现自给自足。
Well, our goal was that every artist becomes self sufficient.
所以我们为数百位客户成立了制作公司，真的是数以百计。
So we created production companies for hundreds of our clients, hundreds of them.
他们拥有自己的小事业，并为自己开发项目。
They had their own little businesses, and they developed projects for themselves.
他们也会接受别人提供的项目，但我们的目标是实现多元化。
They would take projects that were offered to them as well, but our goal was to have a mix.
当我们刚进入经纪行业时，那还是个懒散的行业，人员流动很少。
When we started in the agency business, which at the time was a lazy business, there wasn't a lot of turnover.
客户不会离开他们的经纪人。
Clients didn't leave their agents.
当时挖角现象并不多见。
There wasn't a lot of poaching.
除了代理模式外，这并非一个竞争激烈的行业，主要还是电话接单业务。
It wasn't a very aggressive business except in the format of being an agent, but it was mostly a phone order business.
有人会打电话问：米尔曼女士有空吗？
Someone would pick up the phone, say, is miss Millman available?
然后你会回答有或没有，询问报价是多少，她能否在这些日期工作？
And you'd say yes or no, how much is it, what is can she work these dates?
这对我们来说是大忌。
That was taboo for us.
我们认为如果有人打电话来挖角，就说明我们的工作做得很糟糕，我们必须掌控一切。
We felt if someone called us with an offer for someone, we were doing a terrible job, that we had to be in control of everything.
控制欲和激进行为总是相伴相生。
Control, aggressive behavior go hand in hand.
当我们按照自己的方式行事时，我们将其发展成一门科学，并且懂得如何运用所有这些手段。
And when you do them the way we did, we developed it as a science, And we knew how to use all of those tools.
你在书中写道，你教导经纪人每天都要伸手去拿棍棒，但永远不要真正拿起它。
You've written that you taught your agents to reach for the club every single day, but to never pick it up.
你还说过，权力只有在未行使时才是真正的权力。
And said, power is only power until you exert it.
这完全是一种心理博弈。
It's all perception.
我想知道你是否能详细阐述这个观点。
And I'm wondering if you can elaborate on that.
我发现这同时有点令人毛骨悚然、着迷又害怕。
I found that to be kinda spooky and fascinating and scary all at the same time.
其实你看，'权力'这个词本身在我看来就是误称。
Well, there's a you know, the word power itself is a misnomer to me.
我不认为任何人真正拥有权力。
I don't think anybody has any power.
我认为也许美国总统有权力，因为他能按下按钮。
I think maybe the president of The United States has power because he can push a button.
但归根结底，权力只是人们对你能做什么的认知。
But at the end of the day, power is only the perception of what people think you can do.
因为当你开始行使权力时，你就失去了权力。
Because when you start to do it, you lose the power.
我总是告诉特工们，我们拥有这根大棒，但当他们的手碰到大棒的那一刻，他们就输了。
And I always told the agents that we had this giant club, and the minute their hand touches that club, they lose.
他们输了。
They lose.
关键是要让人感觉那根大棒就在那里，而且你可以挥舞它。
It's gotta be the perception that that club is there and you can wield it.
但如果你真的用了它，就会出问题。
But if you use it, it's a problem.
说到印象管理，你们刚创立CAA时，你和合伙人用汽车贷款付了1500美元首付买了五辆捷豹
Speaking of perception, when you first started CAA, you and your partners took out a car loan and bought five Jaguars for $1,500 down
每辆。
each.
每辆151.5万美元。
$1,515,000 dollars each.
但你们不是只需要付1500美元首付吗？是的。
But didn't you have to put only 1,500 Yes.
美元
Dollars
付了1500美元首付。
put $1,500 down.
没错。
That's correct.
天啊，你读过那本书。
My god, you've read the book.
所以你们定制了CAA车牌 是的。
So you ordered CAA license plates Yes.
后面跟着连字符和合伙人姓名首字母。
Followed by a hyphen and the partner's initials.
正确。
Correct.
首批个性车牌，你形容这对一家前三年税务申报都为零的公司来说是极度奢侈。
And the first vanity plates, you described it as a rank extravagance for a company that would file zeros on its tax returns for its first three years.
但在幻想之都，盛大展示是必不可少的。
But in the city of fantasy, a big show was essential.
你觉得现在这种做法还能奏效吗？
Do you think that that would work now?
没可能。
No chance.
但在那个年代，认知的力量是超乎寻常的，每个人都过着这种疯狂的生活方式。
But in those days, the power of perception was extraordinary, and everyone lived this crazy lifestyle.
我们在威廉莫里斯公司时，他们对汽车有严格的等级制度。
When we were at William Morris, they had a pecking order for cars.
如果你是资深高管，就能得到一辆凯迪拉克。
If you were a senior senior person, you got a Cadillac.
如果你是中层员工，就得到一辆别克。
If you were in the middle of the company, you got a Buick.
而如果你是像我这样的底层员工，就只能得到一辆福特野马。
And if you were in the low end of the company like I was, you got like a Ford Mustang.
所以我们决定要彻底改变这种认知体系。
So we decided we're gonna just go ahead and we're gonna take all of that perception, and we're gonna change it.
那时候买进口车可是件大事。
And buying a foreign car was a big to do in those days.
所以你是在展示你希望别人看到的形象，并希望他们完全相信。
So you were projecting something you wanted other people to see about you and hoping Absolutely.
他们相信
They believe
我们希望他们认为我们很成功。
We wanted them to think we were successful.
有趣的是我们几乎付不起分期付款。
The funny thing is we could barely afford the payments.
你将CAA描述为一个堡垒，一个全天候为客户服务的机构。
You described CAA as a fortress, one that worked twenty four seven for its clients.
每位艺人都有四到五个经纪人负责，而不仅是一个。
All talent had four or five agents on them versus just one.
你们以更努力、更长时间工作著称——考虑到你们在威廉莫里斯公司的出身，这并不奇怪——并且为客户提供从演出机会到预约城里最好的医生，再到令人难以置信的礼物等一切需求。
And you had a reputation for working longer and harder, not surprising given your origins at William Morris, and giving clients literally anything they needed from a gig to an appointment with the best doctor in the city to incredible gifts.
迈克尔，听说西尔维斯特·史泰龙说他喜欢你的法拉利时，你真的把车所有权转让给他了吗？
Is it true, Michael, that when Sylvester Stallone said he liked your Ferrari, you gave him the title to the car?
确实如此。
That is true.
为什么？
Why?
他接受了吗？
Did he accept it?
他欣然接受了，而且他理应如此。
He accepted it gladly, and and and he should have, by the way.
西尔维斯特·斯隆是罗恩·迈耶的客户，当时正支付给我们巨额佣金。
Sylvester Sloan, who was Ron Meyer's client, was paying us a small fortune of commission.
我是说，我们收费
I mean, we charge
那还是《洛奇》电影时期的事。
Well, that was back in the Rocky movie days.
他当时每部片酬高达10.15亿美元。
And he was making, you know, $1,015,000,000 dollars a picture.
我们当时能拿到其中的10%。
We were getting 10% of that.
这是我能力范围内能为他做的一件小事。
It was a small thing that I could do for him.
书中关于制作《雨人》、《窈窕淑男》和《金钱本色》这类电影的故事非常精彩。
The stories of making movies like Rain Man and Tootsie and The Color of Money in the book are extraordinary.
但你们做的远不止这些。
But you also did so much more.
CAA还涉足广告领域，与可口可乐等公司合作，你们负责创造了他们广受欢迎的北极熊形象，至今仍在沿用。
CAA also entered the advertising space and worked with companies like Coca Cola, where you were responsible for creating their massively popular polar bear characters, which are still in use today.
是什么促使你们决定这么做的？
What made you decide to do that?
能向我们的听众讲讲你们是如何赢得可口可乐业务的吗？
And can you tell our listeners how you won Coke's business?
因为坦率地说，这是书中最精彩的部分之一。
Because, frankly, that is one of the best parts of the book.
你为赢得那笔业务所做的一切堪称经典。
The whole story about what you did to win that business is classic.
基本上，我每天来上班，当我把钥匙插进门锁时，就知道背负着巨额运营成本。
Basically, I came in every day, and when I put the key in the door, I knew I had this giant overhead.
所以我每天都在思考：我们还能做些什么来拓展业务？
So every day, I tried to think, what can we do to expand?
我们还能做些什么来为客户提供更好的服务？
What can we do to provide better service for the clients?
我们还能做些什么来为客户创造就业机会？
What can we do to provide jobs for the clients?
以及我们还能做些什么让经纪人始终保持对行业动态的热情？
And what can we do to keep our agents really interested in what's going on?
完全是个意外，我遇到了可口可乐的掌舵人——已故的伟大人物罗伯托·戈伊苏埃塔，还有同样已故的公司CEO兼COO唐·基奥。
And completely by accident, I met the guys that ran Coca Cola, Roberto Boisetta, who passed away, one great guy, and his partner Don Kio also passed away, CEO and COO of the company.
他们收购了哥伦比亚影业。
They bought Columbia Pictures.
我永远都不会忘记唐是个了不起的人，我记得坐在艾伦会议上的情景。
And I will never forget Don was an amazing man, and I remember sitting at the Allen conference.
赫伯·艾伦每年都会举办一次会议。
Herb Allen gave a conference every year.
我记得和罗伯托、唐一起坐在赫伯的门廊上，他们非常坦诚地表示百事可乐正在蚕食他们的市场份额。
I remember sitting on Herb's porch with Roberto and Don, and they were being incredibly open that Pepsi was really eating their market share.
百事可乐有一家出色的广告公司BBDNO，他们打造了雷·查尔斯歌手组合。
And Pepsi had a fantastic ad agency in BBDNO, and they had created the Ray Charles singers.
电视上播放着这些广告：雷·查尔斯演奏着热情的音乐，三位非常迷人的年轻女性为他伴唱伴舞，这深深打动了年轻人。
And you had these commercials coming on with Ray Charles playing away hot music with three really attractive young women singing back up for him and dancing, and it just struck a chord with younger people.
于是罗伯托问：'你会怎么做？'
So Roberto says, what would you do?
他这样问像我这样的人可能是个错误。
Which was a probably a mistake for him to say to somebody like me.
我说：'让我想想。'
And I said, let me think about it.
然后我确实这么做了。
And I did.
我离开后认真思考了这个问题。
I went away and I thought about it.
我回电给他说，我想来参加一个与12位全球部门负责人的会议，并会带上我们公司来自不同人口结构的10位高管。
I called him back and I said, I'd like to come in for a meeting with the 12 worldwide department heads, and I'm gonna bring 10 executives from different demographics from our company.
所以我带来了公司各个部门的人员，他们对娱乐、广告和日常生活都有不同见解。
So I brought people from every division of the company, people that had different takes on entertainment, on ads, on daily life.
我们前往亚特兰大待了一整天，认真听取了他们的意见。
And we went and spent a full day in Atlanta, and we listened to what they had to say.
回来后，我们设计了这个方案：通过自主掌控而非外包，并让客户参与制作和导演，用他们拍7条广告的预算每年制作30到40条广告。
Went back, and we designed this concept that we would do 30 to 40 commercials a year for the same price they did seven by taking control of it, not farming it out, and using our clients to produce and direct.
同时将动画等能降低管理成本的环节外包出去。
And then also outsourcing things that would keep our overhead down like animation.
我回来后说，我们要像接力赛一样运作这个项目。
And I went back, and I said, we're gonna do this like a relay race.
所以我们在年初会主打'希望'主题
So we're gonna do first of the year is hopeful.
情人节期间我们会围绕'爱'展开
We're gonna come into Valentine's Day and do love.
四月份复活节前后会聚焦'家庭'
We're gonna go into April and do family around Easter.
夏季来临我们将主打'清凉'概念
Come to the summer, and we're gonna do a refreshment.
转入秋季
Come to the fall.
配合开学季主题
It's back to school.
十一月感恩节回归家庭主题
November, Thanksgiving, family.
圣诞节结合冰雪、北极熊元素推出清凉系列
Christmas, refreshment, snow, polar bears.
我说，我们要像接力赛一样来完成它。
And I said, we're gonna do it like a relay race.
他们很喜欢这个主意。
And they loved the idea.
麦肯广告有370多名客户经理在为这个项目工作。
They had 370 plus account executives at McCann Erickson working on the account.
他们让我们和他们进行所谓的‘对决’。
They put us into what's called a shootout with them.
在同一个房间里。
In the same room.
你们在同一个房间里互相展示
You presented to each other in the same
同一个房间。
Same room.
而我拥有最出色的团队。
And I had the most extraordinary team.
我有一位名叫雪莉·霍克伦的女性成员，她曾在哥伦比亚和派拉蒙负责市场营销工作。
I had a woman named Shelley Hochran who ran marketing at both Columbia and Paramount.
她为沃伦·比蒂的电影《烽火赤焰万里情》策划过极具创意的宣传活动，手法非常独特新颖。
She had done a genius campaign for Warren Beatty's movie, Reds, and it was very unique and different.
团队里还有位叫莱恩·芬克的年轻人，他是洛杉矶夏亚特广告公司的二把手——那家精品广告公司你们都知道，非常出色。
And I had a young man named Len Fink who was the number two guy at Shyate Day in LA, which was a great, as you know, boutique agency.
我们做了充分准备。
And we prepped.
我们制作了30支广告片。
We did 30 commercials.
我给雪莉和莱恩购置了阿玛尼西装。
I bought Armani suits for Shelley and Len.
我的合伙人比尔·哈伯也一同前往，我们四人走进了那间会议室。
Bill Haber, my partner, came with, and the four of us went into that room.
我们就在那个房间里。
We were in there.
我们8点就起床吃早餐，检查会议室，感觉非常自在，对要讲的内容了如指掌。
We were up for breakfast, checking out the room at 8AM, feeling really comfortable, knew our stuff.
到了10点半，对方还没出现。
And 10:30, the other side hadn't shown up.
11点了，他们依然没来。
Eleven, they hadn't shown up.
大约11点半，三十来个满脸倦容的人走进了会议室——他们是当天早上刚从纽约飞过来的。
And at about 11:30, about thirty, very tired people who had flown from New York that morning came into the room.
我们通过抛硬币决定谁先开始。
We flipped a coin to see who would go first.
他们赢了，却认为后发制人最有利——这正合我们心意，因为我们本就希望先讲。
They won, and they thought going second was best, was the greatest thing that ever happened to us because we wanted to go first.
但硬币确实是他们赢的。
But they won the coin toss.
最终他们还是让我们先开始了。
They let us go first.
雪莉、莱恩和比尔表现得非常出色。
Shelley and Len and Bill were so good.
出色到当我做总结陈词时，已经无人能与我们匹敌。
So good that by the time I made the closing statement, there was no competing with us.
事实上，我们做得太出色了，以至于其他团队都中途放弃了。
As a matter of fact, we did such a good job that the other groups stopped great.
他
He
说到一半就停了。
stopped in the middle.
他们中途就停下了。
They stopped in the middle.
他们直接
They just
放弃了吗？
Gave up?
他们放弃了。
They gave up.
我是说，我们表现得非常出色，但这一切都归功于充分的准备。
I mean, we just did a terrific It's But it's all preparation.
是啊。
Yeah.
这是书中最精彩的部分之一。
It's it's an incredible part of the book.
和生活中其他事情没什么不同。
No different than anything else in life.
伟大的电影，源于充分的准备。
Great movies, great preparation.
优秀的运动团队，源于充分的准备。
Great sporting teams, great preparation.
出色的广告活动，源于充分的准备。
Great ad campaigns, great preparation.
我们做好了准备。
We were prepared.
我们做到了。
We did.
而且我们的工作质量很高。
And we just had quality work.
而且它至今仍在被使用。
And it's still being used today.
至今仍在被使用。
Still being used today.
我们为此感到非常自豪。
We're quite proud of it.
尽管取得了所有这些成功，你们却并不怎么公开露面。
With all of this success, you weren't very public.
你是这样描述自己的。
You described yourself like this.
迈克·奥维茨是个可怕的威胁，因为他不是一个人。
Mike Ovitz was a potent boogeyman because he wasn't a person.
他是一个幽灵。
He was a specter.
我避开红毯。
I avoided red carpets.
我参加派对都从后门进出。
I'd enter and leave parties through the back door.
我保留了几乎所有自己照片的版权。
I kept the rights to almost all photos of me.
头十年我完全不做媒体宣传，之后也极少接受采访。
I didn't do any press for the first ten years and very little after that.
为什么？
Why?
我认为把个人形象置于客户之前是个错误。
I felt that it was a mistake to take a profile ahead of the client.
我也觉得进行宣传或为自己建立形象没有任何好处。
I also felt that I had no upside in doing publicity or creating a profile for myself.
唯一可能发生的就是情况会变得更糟。
The only thing that could happen is it could go down.
这样做没有任何积极的好处。
There wasn't any positive benefit of doing it.
回想起来，我可能是错的。
In retrospect, I was probably wrong.
但我还决定，既然我在扮演一个角色，罗恩·梅耶和我做了一个决定，我们中一个人当好人，一个人当坏人。
But I decided also, since I was performing an act, Ron Meyer and I made a decision that one of us was gonna be a good cop and one of us was gonna be a bad cop.
是抛硬币决定的吗？
Was it a coin toss?
你就心甘情愿当坏人？
You just willingly take the bad cop?
我们决定由我来当坏人。
We we made the decision that I would be the bad cop.
奇怪的是，我们在威廉莫里斯共事时，两人都是好好先生。
And the weird thing is when we worked as a team at William Morris, we were both good cops.
在创业的头三四年里，我一直扮演着老好人的角色。
I was a good cop for the first three, four years of the business.
当我们决定进军电影行业时，就意识到需要相互配合着来做事——后来也确实这么做了。
When we decided to go into the motion picture business, we decided that we needed to play off each other, and we did.
您认为企业环境中必须要有唱黑脸的角色吗？
Do you think that a bad cop is always required in a corporate setting?
这个问题我无法作答。
I can't answer that.
但在我们这行确实需要这样的角色。
It was required in the business we had.
因为你时刻都要与人周旋——面对群体、协调各方关系，代理业务本身实在太复杂了。
And you're dealing you're constantly dealing with people, and you're dealing with crowds, and you're corralling different entities, and it's so complicated, the agency business.
圈外人根本想象不到创意产业的复杂程度。
People that aren't in the business don't understand how complicated the creative business is.
我的意思是，现实情况是有人走进你的办公室，说'我有个想法'，然后告诉你这个想法。
I mean, the reality is someone walks into your office, says, I have an idea, and they tell you the idea.
你必须当场就能判断这个想法看起来如何，谁应该参与其中，谁能执行它？
You have to be able to decide right then and there how does the idea look, who should be in it, Who can execute it?
你从哪里获得资金支持？
Where are you gonna get the money for it?
别人是否也有同样的想法？
Does someone else have the same idea?
其他地方是否正在开发类似的东西？
Is something like this in development elsewhere?
有太多事情需要考虑。
There's so many things you have to think about.
而我热爱这个行业的原因正是这个过程。
And what I loved about the business was just that process.
某个创意人走进来向你推销一个想法，最终它变成了一张唱片、一部电影、一档电视节目、一场音乐会或一本书，这是最不可思议的事情。
Some creative person comes in and pitches you an idea, and it ends up being a record or a movie or a television show, a concert or a book, and it's the most extraordinary thing.
直到今天，我依然被创意人才所拥有的才华所震撼，他们真的能做到这些事。
To this day, I'm mesmerized by the talent that creative people have, that they can actually do it.
但我们的工作是提供协助。
But our job was to assist.
这事能成吗？
Can it be done?
我们能帮你筹到资金吗？
Can we get you the money?
我们能把它落实吗？
Can we put it together?
所以这实际上需要很多障眼法，再加上知识、信息和我所谓的参照框架，这意味着你必须时刻掌握所有情况。
So it really was a lot of smoke and mirrors and coupled with knowledge and information and what I call frame of reference, which means you had to know everything all the time.
你的公众形象和私人形象几乎截然相反，我想读一段书中极其坦率且自嘲的文字。
You had a public persona and a private persona that almost seemed diametrically opposed to each other, and I'd like to read one passage of the book which is extremely candid and self deprecating.
我的客户们都在银幕上扮演角色。
My clients played characters on screen.
我在银幕之外扮演着他们。
I played them off screen.
一百人中有九十九个，他们的表演就是真实的自己。
99 out of 100 people, their act is who they are.
但像我这样的异类，会从身边人的点点滴滴中拼凑出角色形象，再将这些特质反射回他们自身。
But anomalies like me manufacture their characters from bits and pieces of those they're with, reflecting them back to themselves.
我曾是条变色龙，需要变成谁就变成谁，只为让所有人感到自在并促成交易。
I was a chameleon, becoming whomever I needed to be to make everyone comfortable and close the deal.
我的基本性格是严谨、全知、睿智、忠诚且不屈不挠。
My basic character was buttoned up, omniscient, wise, loyal, indomitable.
但我既能和保罗·纽曼畅聊跑车，也能与银行家菲利克斯·罗威顿讨论财政政策，或是与索尼总裁盛田昭夫探讨随身听的技术参数。
But I could be a sports car aficionado with Paul Newman just as easily as I could discuss fiscal policy with Felix Rowayton, the banker, or dive into the specifications of the Walkman with Akio Morita, the head of Sony.
所以在同事眼中，我是个控制狂、变形机器、终结者般的存在。
So to those I worked with, I was a control freak, a shape shifting machine, a Terminator.
而私下里的我——只有最亲密朋友见过的那个我——对每句轻蔑都极度敏感，时刻担忧来自四面八方的威胁。
Yet the private me, the one only my closest friend saw, was ultra sensitive to every slight and constantly concerned about threats from every direction.
这个我，这个带着背痛和不安记忆的男人，走进客厅凝视贾斯培·琼斯的《白旗》——他1955年的杰作。
This me, the man with back pain and uneasy memories, wandered into my living room to look at Jasper Johns's White Flag, his 1955 masterpiece.
那么迈克尔，为什么你的公众形象和私下形象之间存在如此深渊？
So, Michael, why such an abyss between who you were publicly and privately?
看起来那个真实的你本是个可爱的人，但你却把他藏了起来。
It seems like the private person was quite a lovely person, but yet you were hiding him.
那个人，我认为不可能在那项事业中成功，句号。
That person, I didn't think could be successful with that business, Period.
事情就这么简单。
It's not any more complicated than that.
我原以为以我本来的性格，无法在这个残酷的行业生存下去。
I didn't think that the person that I thought I was was gonna make it in a cutthroat business.
别忘了，娱乐行业传统上就是世界上最残酷的行业之一。
Let's not forget that traditionally, the entertainment business is one of the most cutthroat businesses in the world.
所有人都在争夺他们大概率得不到的东西。
Everyone's vying for something they most likely are not gonna get.
想想我们为《窈窕淑男》选角时，导演和主演坐在房间里面试了近300名女演员。
Think about when we cast Tootsie, the director and the star sat in a room and interviewed close to 300 actresses.
是杰西卡·兰格那个角色吗？
For the Jessica Lange part?
是的。
Yes.
现在想想看。
Now think about that.
你作为女演员为这次试镜付出了那么多努力。
You come in, you've worked so hard as an actress to get ready for this.
你考虑要穿什么、说什么，研读你的场景，然后去见达斯汀·霍夫曼和西德尼·波拉克。
You think about what you're gonna wear, what you're gonna say, and you read your scene, and you're going in to see Dustin Hoffman and Sidney Pollock.
你看着他们的背景就会想，天啊，他们确实成就非凡。
And you look at their background and you say, my god, they are just you know, they've done amazing work.
我真的需要这个角色。
I really need this part.
300分之一的几率
Even one out of 300 chance.
她们都没得到这个角色
And none of them got the role.
哇
Wow.
她们都没得到这个角色
None of them got the role.
最后给了一位知名女演员
It went to an established actress.
原本这个角色是要给一位不太出名的女演员的
Originally, the role was gonna go to a less established actress.
这真是个残酷的行业
That is a tough, tough business.
然后你还得重新来过，和另一个人再试一次
And then you have to come back and do it again with someone else.
所以我进入了一个竞争激烈、弱肉强食的行业。
So I walked into a business that was cutthroat, dog eat dog.
这个行业要么够狠，要么出局。
This business is tough or get out.
现在依然如此，而且从一百年前开始就是这样了。
It's still that way, and it's been that way since it started a hundred years ago.
经过日复一日的电话会议和会面，扮演着众人需要的各种角色，让你成了真正的变色龙。你写道，当你回到家时，你根本不知道自己究竟是谁。
After calls and meetings day in and day out, and being so many things to so many people, whatever they needed, making you a true chameleon, you write that when you got home, you had no clue who you actually were.
你还写道，因为我负担不起整天做真实的自己，必须对每个人都表现得兴致勃勃、全神贯注、高瞻远瞩且充满智慧，这让我逐渐失去了人性。
You also write that because I couldn't afford to be human all day long, because I had to seem interested and attentive and far seeing and wise with everyone, it made me less human over time.
我变得麻木不仁、急躁易怒，成了人们避之不及的对象。
I became insensitive, impatient, someone to be avoided if at all possible.
所以迈克尔，当你成为好莱坞最有权势的人时，似乎也失去了自己最美好的部分。
So Michael, as you became the most powerful man in Hollywood, it seems like you lost the best parts of yourself.
你知道最讽刺的是什么吗？
You know what's so interesting?
我曾经很惊叹我的客户们能外出成为电影中的一个角色。
I used to marvel at my clients that would go out and become a character in a film.
有些人处理的方式是从不脱离角色，整部电影都保持那个角色状态。
Some of them handled it by never turning the character off and staying the character through the whole movie.
我记得去过一些片场，和我交谈的人仍然沉浸在角色中。
And I remember going on sets where I'm talking to someone who's still in character.
你看着他们的脸，认识他们，正在和他们说话，但他们却通过另一个人在说话。
You look at their face and you know them and you're talking to them, but they're talking through another person.
这事也发生在我身上。
It happened to me.
哦。
Oh.
刚刚就发生在我身上。
It just happened to me.
我会回到家。
I would come home.
我需要一个半小时才能平复心情，做回原来的自己。
It would take me an hour and a half to come down to go back to who I was.
那非常困难。
It was very difficult.
你提到过你甚至对达斯汀·霍夫曼这样的挚友都隐藏情绪，并表示'我从未想向任何人——甚至是达斯汀——展示我的情感强度，因为我担心情绪是致命弱点'。
You want to state that you kept your emotions a secret even to your closest friends like Dustin Hoffman, and you state, I never wanted to show anyone, even Dustin, the strength of my feelings because I worried that emotions were a fatal weakness.
你现在还这么认为吗？
Do you still feel that way?
不了。
No.
我现在很坦率，否则就不会坐在这里了。
I'm pretty open or I wouldn't be sitting here.
确实。
Yeah.
这其实说到了点子上。
That's actually a good point.
不。
No.
我在人生后期才意识到这一点。
I came to that realization late in my life.
但对我来说，情绪化和脆弱都是禁忌。
But to me, being emotional, being vulnerable, those are taboo.
如果你像我以前那样经营企业，就不能那样做。
And you can't do that if you're running a business like I was running.
有太多变数，所以必须保持一致性。
There were too many variables, so there needed to be consistency.
你是怎么改变的？
How did you change?
你是如何走到今天这一步的？
How did you get to this place today?
嗯，我为此付出了很多努力。
Well, I I worked pretty hard at it.
首先，我退出了商界。
First of all, I came out of the business.
我花了十年时间才达到可以开始写书的阶段。
It took me ten years to get to the point where I could start to write the book.
而在写作过程中，它产生了难以置信的宣泄效果。
And then while I wrote it, it was incredibly cathartic.
老实说，我现在感觉比以往任何时候都好。
I can honestly say I feel the best I've ever felt right now.
这意味着我可能走到街上就会突然倒下
Means I'll probably drop dead when I walk into the street here
求你别这么说
on Please don't say
迈克尔。
that, Michael.
不。
No.
我感觉真的很好，因为我仿佛刚刚穿越到了彼岸。
I felt I I feel really good because I feel like I've just come through the other end.
这花了很长时间。
It's taken a long time.
你也非常坦率地谈到了自己的不知足，你写道虽然对贫穷的恐惧逐渐消退，但你就像一名运动员，总想不断超越自己，创造新纪录。
You were also quite candid about your insatiability, and you write about how while your fear of poverty receded, you were like an athlete who wanted to keep topping himself, setting new records.
你还提到，当我们发出内部备忘录时，会有肾上腺素飙升的感觉。
And you state, there'd be the adrenaline rush when we sent out the internal memo.
罗伯特·雷德福现在是我们的客户。
Robert Redford is now a client.
十五分钟后，情况变成了：接下来呢？
Fifteen minutes later, it was, what next?
1979年，我33岁时，华纳兄弟的特德·阿什利把我拉到一边说，我要给你一些绝佳的建议。
In 1979, when I was 33, Ted Ashley at Warner Brothers took me aside and said, I'm going to give you some great advice.
他苦笑着咧了咧嘴。
He grinned ruefully.
以我对你的了解，你不会接受这个建议，但还是要告诉你。
And knowing you, you're not going to take it, but here it is.
我本可以少工作10%，这对我的职业成就毫无影响，但我会快乐得多。
I could have worked 10% less, and it wouldn't have made a difference in my professional success, but I would have been a lot happier.
你接着写道，特德在这两点上完全正确。
You go on to write that Ted was absolutely right on both counts.
这是个绝佳的建议，但你并没有采纳。
It was great advice, but you didn't take it.
我想知道为什么。
And I want to know why.
你还继续写道，我现在明白我本可以少工作20%，这不会让我失去什么。
You you also go on to say, I see now that I could have worked as much as 20% less, and it wouldn't have cost me.
如果三十年间我每周少工作10%，相当于多享受了整整三年的生命。
If I'd even worked 10% less across thirty years, that's three whole extra years of life I'd have enjoyed.
那么，是什么让你如此拼命奋斗呢？
So what what kept you striving so hard?
你是如何如此迅速地消化这份成功的？签下罗伯特·雷德福才十五分钟，你就需要下一个大项目了？
How did you metabolize that success so quickly that fifteen minutes after signing Robert Redford, you needed the next big hit?
因为我从未享受过胜利的喜悦。
Because I never enjoyed the victory ever.
对我来说，胜利只是某件事的终点，而这件事需要重新开始。
To me, a victory was just the end of something that needed to be begun again.
我记得我曾参与环球影业出售给蒙苏奇电力的交易，为此努力了一年半。
I remember I was involved in the sale of Universal to Montsuche Electric and worked for a year and a half on it.
我的密友赫伯·艾伦二世是这笔交易的银行家，他教会了我很多，我们一起完成了其他几笔交易。
And a close friend, Herb Allen the second, who was the banker on the deal and taught me so much, and we had done several other deals together.
他看着我说道：你现在应该享受这一刻。
He looked at me and said he said, you should enjoy this now.
但我没有。
And I didn't.
当晚我外出用餐，开始讨论我们下一个可以出售的公司是什么。
I went out that night, had dinner, and started talking about what was the next company that we could sell.
那已成为过去。
It was behind me.
已经结束了。
It was done.
一切都翻篇了。
It was over.
这种心态源于我在圣费尔南多谷的成长经历，当时生活在一种我认为非常、非常低标准的生活状态中。
Now that came from a place of growing up in the San Fernando Valley and living in a very, very, what I consider to be, substandard lifestyle.
我不想要那种生活。
I didn't want that lifestyle.
我不想成为我父亲那样的人。
I didn't want to be my dad.
你知道，这很有趣。
You know, it's funny.
我曾和一位密友聊天，他父亲极其富有，他从小就有位非常富有成功的父亲。
I was talking to a close friend of mine whose father is incredibly wealthy, and he grew up with a very wealthy, successful father.
我有一位了不起的父亲，他既不富有也不成功。
I grew up with a terrific father who was not wealthy or successful.
我们的感受完全相同，但原因略有不同。
We both feel the exact same way, but for slightly different reasons.
我不想成为我父亲那样，而这位朋友则想比他父亲更出色。
I didn't want to be my dad, and this guy wants to be better than his dad.
所以有些东西在驱使我们，而当你身处战斗之中时，这种心理动机并不明显。
So there's things that drive us, and the psychology of it isn't apparent when you're in the middle of the fight.
当华纳兄弟影业的董事长兼CEO泰德·阿什利——这位曾创建了著名经纪公司Ashley Famous的前经纪人——对我说'你可以放慢10%的节奏'时，我左耳进右耳出。
When Ted Ashley, who was this chairman, CEO of Warner Brothers Pictures, and a former agent who built a giant agency, Ashley Famous, when he said to me, you could back off 10%, it went in one ear and out the other.
后来我才意识到，我们创造的势头本可以让我放慢25%的节奏，因为人们以为我们仍在全力以赴，无论事实如何。
And then I realized way down the road that the momentum that we created could have carried us where I could have backed off 25% because people thought we were doing what we were doing whether we were doing it or not.
这根本没什么区别。
It didn't make any difference.
这就是他当时想告诉我的。
That's what he was trying to tell me.
当时我看不到这一点。
Couldn't see it.
我那时像蝙蝠一样盲目。
I was blind as a bat.
既然你已经领悟了这一切，我是说，像你这样拥有非凡职业生涯的人仍在不断鞭策自己，因为总觉得还不够好，那么对于那些刚刚开始职业生涯、同样感到自我驱动且基础不足的人，你会给他们什么建议？
Now that you've learned this all, I mean, if somebody with the remarkable career that you've had is was still sort of pushing themselves because it's never good enough, what advice would you have for somebody that's just out there now making a career for themselves that's that feels this way, that's driven because and their foundation, they don't feel good enough without it?
你会对他们说什么？
What would you tell them?
你能给出什么建议？
What what advice could you give?
他们必须与自我保持联系。
They've gotta be in touch with themselves.
他们需要不断退后一步审视。
They've gotta take a step back constantly.
我从未退后一步审视，这是个错误。
I didn't ever take a step back, and it was a mistake.
他们必须庆祝成功并分析失败，若无法退后一步，就无法欣赏或批评自己的所作所为，保持开放心态，但偶尔也要放慢脚步。
And they've gotta celebrate their successes and analyze their losses without the ability to step back, appreciate what you've done, or criticize what you've done, and be open about it, but to slow it down occasionally.
有句老话说得好，停下来闻闻玫瑰花香。
There's a saying which is so trite, stop and smell the roses.
虽是老生常谈，却是真理。
Trite, but true.
你常告诫经纪人：让客户以为他们是你的朋友，但要记住他们并非真朋友。
You frequently told your agents, make your clients think they're your friends, but remember that they're not.
然而最终往往是客户大多保持忠诚，而朋友却会背叛你。
Yet it would be your clients who would stay loyal for the most part and your friends who were ultimately going to betray you.
其中一次重大背叛发生在你48岁左右时。
One of the biggest betrayals came around the time you were 48.
当时你在CAA精疲力竭，正寻找转行政府或非营利工作前的最后一份工作。
You were burned out at CAA and looking for one last job before you turned to government or nonprofit work.
你在书中描述了自己当时有多疲惫。
And in the book, you talk about how tired you were.
我在想你是否能为我们读一下那个特定章节。
And I was wondering if you'd read that particular section for us.
我觉得由你来读会比我自己读更有感染力。
I think it'd be so much more powerful if you read it as opposed to me reading it.
我会读的，因为你是主持人。
I will do it because you're the hostess.
谢谢。
Thank you.
你说了算，所以我会照你说的做。
You're in control, so I'm gonna do whatever you tell me.
哦，好的。
Oh, okay.
内容是这样的。
So it goes like this.
我从未停止对艺术家和创作过程的热爱。
I never stopped loving artists and the creative process.
我从未丧失对无中生有这种魔法的着迷。
I never lost my fascination for the magic of making something from nothing.
但经纪人这行是年轻人的游戏，你只能跑这么久、这么远。
But agenting was a young person's game, and you could run just so long and so far.
48岁时，从我在威廉·莫里斯经纪公司第一天就开始奔波的我，已经精疲力竭。
At 48, having run since my first day at William Morris, I was tired.
我厌倦了清晨6点起床，一边与欧洲通话一边挤时间锻炼。
I was tired of getting up at 6AM and squeezing in a workout while on the phone with Europe.
我厌倦了一天接打300个电话，讲到喉咙沙哑。
I was tired of rolling through 300 calls a day, talking until my throat was raw.
我厌倦了午餐和晚餐要提前三个月安排。
I was tired of having lunches and dinners scheduled three months out.
我厌倦了一年飞行600小时，相当于每月多工作一周。
I was tired of flying six hundred hours a year, the equivalent of one work week a month.
我厌倦了为了11月1日到圣诞节期间的30场必赴活动而拥有六套晚礼服。
I was tired of owning six tuxedos for the 30 obligatory events between November 1 and Christmas.
我厌倦了每天回电话到晚上七点，赴宴到十点，回家面对堆积如山的粉色留言条，给日本打电话到午夜，然后六小时后一切又重新开始。
I was tired of returning calls till 7PM, going to dinner till ten, coming home to a mountain of pink message slips, calling Japan till midnight, and starting over again six hours later.
我厌倦了将自己完全沉浸——确切说是淹没——在客户及其家人、重要他人的生活中。
I was tired of submerging myself, drowning myself, really, in the lives of my clients and their families and significant others.
客户们对房车尺寸和片酬高低的担忧，在我看来愈发显得琐碎不堪。
Our clients' worries about the size of their trailers and how big their billing would be had come to seem increasingly petty.
事实上，我一直讨厌处理这些生活琐事，比如确保演员导演们能吃到新鲜番石榴或找到完美保姆。
The truth is I'd always disliked having to see to people's creature comforts, making sure our actors and directors had fresh guava and the perfect nanny.
你是个成年人了
You're an adult.
过你自己的人生吧
Run your own life.
谢谢你分享这些，迈克尔
Thank you for sharing that, Michael.
这确实是书中最感人的部分之一，你这种自我反省
It's really one of the most touching parts of the book, this sort of self reckoning that you have.
读到你说自己一直为身为星探而感到隐隐难堪时，我真的很震惊。
I was shocked to read that you had come to the realization that you'd always been faintly embarrassed to be a talent agent.
为什么呢？
Why?
直到我们创办CA并获得成功后，我才觉得自己至少成为了自己事业的主导者。
It wasn't till we opened CA and became successful that I felt I was at least a principal in my own business.
但多年来，影视作品里描绘的星探形象都是油嘴滑舌的——抽着雪茄、语速飞快、缺乏教养、不够优雅的那种人。
But talent agents for years had been depicted in films and television shows as swarmy, you know, cigar smoking, fast talking, not very educated, not very elegant people.
这始终让我感到难堪。
And it always was a a source of embarrassment to me.
我不想成为那种人，所以才有那些着装规定、行为准则，以及我们开的车。
I didn't want us to be one of those people, hence the dress codes and and, you know, the way we behaved, the cars we drove.
选择IMP设计事务所来设计办公楼，这绝非偶然。
The office building, the idea of bringing IMP to design our building, that was not an accident.
这一切都是经过深思熟虑的。
It was all thought through.
我们如何通过与当时世界上最伟大的在世建筑师合作，创造出经典之作？
How do we create something that's classic by the, at the time, the world's greatest living architect?
你现在还拥有那栋大楼。
And you still own that building.
我确实还拥有那栋大楼。
I do own that building.
这是个明智之举。
That was a smart one.
你在经历这轮真正的精疲力竭后离开了CAA。
You left CAA after this bout of of real, I think, exhaustion.
你离开了亲手创立的CAA公司，接受了迈克尔·艾斯纳的邀请与他共同执掌迪士尼。
You leave CAA, this company that you'd built with your bare hands, and you accepted Michael Eisner's offer to lead Disney with him.
你在书中写道从一开始就不顺利。
And you write that it didn't work out from day one.
我尝试过，但我失败了。
I tried and I failed.
这是我人生中最大的失败之一。
It was one of the biggest failures of my life.
你在一年半后实际上是被迫离开的，之后你表示对艾斯纳怒不可遏，也对自己愤怒不已。
You were effectively forced out after a year and a half, and afterward, you stated that you were livid with Eisner and furious at yourself.
你感到糟糕透顶、毫无价值，是个彻头彻尾的失败者。
You felt awful, worthless, and an utter failure.
更雪上加霜的是，有位朋友告诉你，迈克尔·艾斯纳招揽你去迪士尼的动机，与其说是看重你，不如说是想把你挖出CAA——以此削弱经纪公司的势力（实际上是所有经纪公司的势力），并宣称你这根刺在迪士尼身上扎得太久了，所以他要把你拔掉。
And it was made even worse when you were told by a friend that Michael Eisner didn't want you at Disney so much as he wanted you out of CAA in order to weaken the agency's power, all agency's power, in fact, and declare that I'd been a thorn in Disney's side for too long, so he pulled it out.
每天羞辱我只是额外的奖励。
Humiliating me every day was just a bonus.
你是怎么度过那段时期的？
How did you manage through that time?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我的意思是，我会早起、上班，并且像对待生活中的其他事情一样，我以为只要埋头苦干，不断前进，努力做好事情，做好创意工作，并在业务中建立关系，就能克服困难，但我错了。
I mean, I would get up early, go in, and I assumed that, like anything else in my life, if I kept my nose to the wheel, and I just kept moving forward and trying to do good things, good creative things, and build relationships within the business, that I could overcome it, and I just was wrong.
你有没有弄清楚对方的意图或动机是什么？
Did you ever figure out what the intention was or the motivation was?
这件事有没有可能成功？
Was there ever a possibility that it could have worked?
嗯，我们在规划阶段讨论时，这看起来像是天时地利人和的完美组合。
Well, when we were talking about it in the planning stages, it seemed like the perfect storm.
当时有些团队管理大型公司非常成功。
There were teams that were running large companies very successfully.
墨菲和伯克在Cap Cities ABC，戴利和塞梅尔在华纳兄弟。
Murphy and Burke at Cap Cities ABC, Daley and Semmel at Warner Brothers.
戈伊苏埃塔和基尔两人有着最非凡的合作关系。
Goizeta and Keel had the most extraordinary relationship, the two of them.
当他决定收购ABC并将其并入迪士尼时，这是个商业巨无霸。
And when he decided to buy ABC and merge it into Disney, it was a behemoth business.
要运营它需要的不止两个人。
It would take more than two people to run it.
坦白说，我当时以为——而且错误地以为——他是真心认为需要我们两人来管理公司。
So frankly, I assumed, and assumed incorrectly, that he was sincere that it would take two of us to run it.
但从我踏进他家门那天起，这就是个错误。
But it was a mistake from the day that I showed up at his house.
第一天
The first day
就是第一天。
you just Very first day.
我就知道了。
I knew it.
汇报体系的问题。
The reporting structure.
不，不是这样。
Well, no.
我知道一切都结束了。
I knew it was over.
我一开始就知道这事成不了。
I knew it was over before it started.
是什么让你坚持了这么久？
What kept you continuing on doing it for as long as you did?
我别无选择。
I didn't have any choice.
我有合同在身。
I had a contract.
我已经把CA卖给了我们留下的那九个年轻人，我必须继续下去。
I had already sold CA to the nine young guys that we left it to, And I had to continue.
我不能就这么放弃。
I couldn't just quit.
当股东或董事会——我不记得是哪一方——因为你的离职补偿想提起诉讼时，法官判你胜诉，认定你获得的那笔相当可观的离职补偿是合理的，这一定让你很欣慰吧。
It must have been quite gratifying after the, shareholders or the board, I don't remember which one, wanted to sue because of your severance package, but the judge judged in your favor, and and the fairly large severance package that you received was was deemed to be fair.
我在那场官司中非常努力，因为我不仅把它视为一场官司，更是对事实真相的陈述。
I worked really hard at that trial because I viewed that trial not just as a trial, but as a statement of fact about what really happened.
你写到了这些后续影响。
You write this about the aftermath.
二十年间，我从一个无名小卒成长为潜力新星，再到被誉为好莱坞最具权势的人物。
In twenty years, I went from a complete unknown to a comer, to being hailed as the most powerful man in Hollywood.
这样的日子过了几年后，我成了城里最令人畏惧的存在。
After a few years of that, I became the most feared man in town.
而当我离开CAA后，当人们终于可以安全地发泄时，我成了最遭人恨的对象。
And once I left CAA, when it was safe for everyone to vent, I became the most hated.
你究竟是如何找回自我的？
How on earth did you get back to yourself?
时间是神奇的疗愈者。
Time is an amazing healer.
我是说，你如何能从那般的背叛与愤怒中走出来？
I mean, how do you get over that kind of betrayal and anger?
你在书中提到自己多么喜爱哈罗德·品特的戏剧和电影《背叛》。
You you write about how much you loved Harold Pinter's play and movie, Betrayal.
这也是我的一部作品。
And it's also one of mine.
背叛与忠诚对我来说真的非常重要。
And betrayal and loyalty is really, really important to me.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你如何...你如何释怀...你如何原谅？
How do you how do you get over how do you forgive?
这不是原谅的问题。
It's not a question of forgive.
这是原谅我自己的问题。
It's a question of forgiving myself.
让我生气的是我自己，是我让自己被卷入这些处境。
It was me that I was upset with, that I allowed myself to get dragged into these situations.
所以我必须原谅自己。
So I had to forgive myself.
我花了很长时间才走到这一步。
It took a long time to get there.
正如我之前告诉你的，写这本书对我来说是一种极大的宣泄，因为我有机会坐下来从头回顾，审视各种动机。
Writing the book, as I said to you earlier, was incredibly cathartic for me because I had the opportunity to sit down and look back from the beginning and then look at the motivations.
我做了什么？
What did I do?
我做对了什么？
What did I do right?
我做错了什么？
What did I do wrong?
看。
Look.
我做的有些事情非常正确。
Some of the things that I did were very right.
那家公司至今仍在运营，四十三年过去了。
That company's still going today forty three years later.
是的。
Yes.
所以，对于我做错的事情，理解它们是有益的。
So, with respect to the things I did wrong, it's good to understand them.
我当时并不理解。
I didn't understand them.
当你身处风暴中心时，确实很难看清周围的情况。
When you're in the eye of the storm, you really don't see around you very well.
置身事外时更容易看清。
It's easier to see when you're not in the middle of it.
这本书拍成电影会很好看。
Would make a great movie, this book.
我不确定这一点。
I don't know about that.
我不会参与这个项目的包装。
It's not gonna get packaged by me.
这是肯定的。
That's for sure.
自那以后，你将注意力转向硅谷，并与互联网先驱马克·安德森和本·霍洛维茨共事。
In the time since, you've turned your attention to Silicon Valley and are working with Internet pioneers Marc Andreessen and Ben Horowitz.
他们邀请你加入他们旗下企业LoudCloud的董事会。
And they asked you to sit on the board of LoudCloud, one of their businesses.
几年后，惠普以近20亿美元收购了它。
And a few years later, HP bought it for nearly $2,000,000,000.
后来你建议两人创建安德森·霍洛维茨基金，用你的话说，要成为硅谷的CAA。
You later advised the two on creating Andreessen Horowitz to be, as you described it, the CAA of Silicon Valley.
你合作过的公司包括Medium、Palantir、Clout、Priceonomics、GoodRx等。
You've worked with companies including Medium, Palantir, Clout, Priceonomics, GoodRx, and others.
回顾这一切，你认为CAA与硅谷之间，或者说好莱坞与硅谷之间，相似之处更多还是差异更大？
And looking back on everything, do you see more similarities or differences between CAA and Silicon Valley or Hollywood and Silicon Valley?
嗯，我现在就在那里，过去十五年来一直如此，我认为我所做的一切与在CAA时完全一样。
Well, I'm up there now and have been for the last fifteen years, and I view everything that I'm doing exactly similar to what I did at CAA.
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