鲁兹·马德维安 - 在Neuralink与苹果设计前沿界面

比如我想放大某个东西。

Like if I wanna zoom in on something.

对吧？

Right?

视觉上，我们仍希望为这种缩放操作提供某种形式的连续反馈。

Visually, we still wanna give you some form of continuous feedback about that zoom.

光标几乎像减数分裂，像细胞分裂那样可以爆裂成两个手指点。

The cursor almost like meiosis, like cellular division could like explode into like two finger points.

对吧？

Right?

然后这两个点就能成为你进行缩放操作时的视觉锚点。

And then those could then be your visual anchor for how you're doing this zoom in interaction.

这是阶梯的又一步。

That's another step of the ladder.

如何突破当前交互模式的限制，实现无需切换模式的新型光标交互，这种模式切换正是我们模型能够学习的内容。

How do you go beyond basically the current interaction model into something that doesn't require switching modes to a new style of cursor, that mode switching is something that our model can actually learn.

因此我们捕捉的是你的意图，不是那种笼统的‘我想与屏幕上这个东西互动’的高阶意图，而是具体到‘我现在想要拖动’的意图。

So we pick up on your intent, not in this case of just this crazy high order intent of I wanna interact with this thing on my screen, but rather at the specific I want to drag now.

这会让人感觉像魔法一样，因为当你想要拖动时，它就会自动切换到拖动模式。

That could feel like magic because it's just like when you want to drag, it just switches to the drag thing.

你不需要像现在这样通过模式切换器来传递意图——我们现在的方式是有一个模式切换器，还有一个快速切换功能，可以通过点击快速切换到当前应用的首选模式。

You don't have to channel that intent through how we currently do it, which is we have a mode switcher and we also have a quick switch where you can use one of your clicks to quickly switch to your preferred mode in this specific app.

这样在功能上已经实现了90%的目标，因为大多数情况下你的第二个操作就是拖动。

So that gets us like, of course, functionally, like 90% of the way there because most of the time your second interaction is dragging.

我很好奇你的操作习惯会是什么，但我的肯定也是这样，因为这可以按应用单独设置。

I'm curious like what yours would be, but that's definitely what mine would also be because you can do it on a per app basis.

比如在Illustrator里，你经常需要缩放操作。

Like if in Illustrator, you're are, like, zooming.

对吧？

Right?

你完全可以重新映射这个功能——虽然这样能实现90%的目标，但我认为仍然缺少那种只有神经指向设备才能实现的独特魔力，这是物理指向设备做不到的，即我们能读取某种潜在的意图。

You can easily remap that in, like functionally, that gets you 90% of the way there, but it's still lacking, I think, the the actual magic that is unique to something like a neural pointing device that these physical pointing devices just can't do, which is that we can read some form of our underlying intent.

我认为接下来的10个阶梯就是将真实的原始意图融入我们的体验中。

And I think the next like 10 rungs on this ladder are just bringing like the actual raw intent into our experience.

所以到目前为止，目标只是让光标能够使用，并且达到与我们使用时相同的精准度。

So the goal so far, I mean, has been just to enable the use of the cursor and to enable it with the same fidelity that we can use it.

我认为目前的记录，我们的第一位参与者设定了一个惊人的标准。

So I think the current record, our first participant set a wild bar.

大约是每秒9.5次点击。

It was like nine and a half BPS.

BPS只是我们实际可读取信息的一个度量指标。

BPS is just like a metric for the information that we can actually read.

真的，你可以把它想象成一个分数，因为你可以用他们测量光标BPS的相同任务来测试。

Really, you can just think of it as just like a score because you can use the same task that they use to measure the BPS of like your cursor.

比如，你可以用触控板或鼠标，按照他们的方法操作——点击屏幕上的位置，它基本上会测量你完成的速度和准确度。

Like, so you can use it with a trackpad, like a mouse, and just do what they do, which is, like, click on positions of the screen, and it measures basically how quickly you can do that and how accurately you can do that.

是的，第一位参与者从信号质量下降的那个节点开始就设定了这个疯狂的标准，他不得不重新使用停留点击功能，因为他实在太爱使用他的神经光标了。

So, yeah, first participant set this wild bar from that first point where the signal quality had, like, dropped off and he had to go back to using dwell because he just loved using his neural cursor.

他连续数月每天使用，操作水平突飞猛进，从最初大约4 BPS——最底层阶梯大概是2 BPS——一路提升。

He, like, used it every day for months and got insanely better at using it and went from, I think, something like four BPS, like, two at like, at the very bottom rung was, like, two BPS.

他就这样一步步攀登，最终达到了9.5 BPS的水平。

And he just, like, walked his way up this ladder to, I think, nine and a half is where he ended up.

作为参照，我的水平大概是10 BPS。

For context, I can do about, like, 10.

这是我的个人记录。

Like, that's my personal record.

说实话这很符合我的品牌调性，毕竟我用的是触控板。

I'm probably on brand, frankly, because I use a trackpad.

但他的成绩最终稳定在9.5左右。

But he ended up around nine and a half.

而今年我们的第十位参与者达到了10.5 BPS。

And then this year, our tenth participant did 10 and a half.

最终数字我记得是10.38。

And it's, like, 10.38, I think, is the final number.

主要目标是让我们能够以相同的精准度使用光标

The primary goal is to enable the use of the cursor at the same fidelity that we can use it.

这对我们如此令人兴奋的原因是，光标不仅是您操作能力的焦点，更是您使用电脑的方式

The reason this is like so exciting for us is like the cursor beyond just being the focal point of your agency or whatever is also how you use a computer.

所以如果您思考这意味着什么，这意味着我们用电脑来提高生产力

So if you think about what that entails, that entails like we use computers to be productive.

我们用它们来表达自我

We use them to express ourselves.

我们用它们来彼此交流

We use them to communicate with each other.

我们还用它们来娱乐

And we use them to like have fun.

这涵盖了人类体验中相当广泛的部分，而只需要一个真正流畅的光标就能实现

It's a pretty wide subset of the human experience that can be enabled with just a really sort of fluid cursor.

所以这绝对是我们的目标

So that is definitely like the goal.

这就是为什么我们要在这个充满不同权衡的空间中探索，只为实现某种形式的光标使用。

And that's kind of why we walk this space of like different trade offs just to enable some form of cursor use.

因为我们觉得，显然还有更好的方案存在，这始终萦绕在我们心头——我们还能从这里走向何方？

Because we think that like, obviously there's this better thing out there that know, is in the back of our minds of, like, where can we go from here?

但在这个案例中不去重新发明轮子的原因很简单：轮子是你驶上高速公路的工具，也就是现有系统。

But the reason, like, not to reinvent the wheel in this case is just because the wheel is how you get on the highway, which is this existing system.

这绝对是我们的关注重点。

That's definitely the focus.

但在此之上还有更多层级，比如DCI独有的特性——它们不仅仅是当前光标功能的简单投射。

But there are rungs, like, beyond that then, which is, like, there are things that are not just a projection onto a cursor that we use today that are very unique to DCI.

我很想深入了解产品体验本身是如何随时间演变的。

I'm interested in learning more about just how the product experience itself has evolved over time.

随着参与者使用频率的增加，他们的行为如何影响了实验设计？甚至如何改变了你们对产品定位的思考？

So as you're getting more and more usage from these participants, how are their behaviors shaping some of the experiments and just how you were even thinking about what the product needed to be?

我们在系统中内置的一个通用后备方案是语音输入。

One fallback we built into the system in general was voice input.

因此，仅通过简单语音指令就能重新校准模型或调整参数——虽然我们并未将其视为最终用户体验方案，但在早期系统极不稳定的阶段，这确实非常实用。

So just being able to say a simple command to recalibrate the model, to change some parameters of the model, not something we envision as our final sort of experience, but it was great in those early days when things were far less predictable.

对他们而言，这是个极其可靠的备选方案。

It was a really reliable fallback option for them to have.

事实上，我们的第三位参与者患有肌萎缩侧索硬化症（ALS）。

Our third participant actually had ALS.

这意味着他们丧失了语言能力。

That means that they cannot speak.

自然，语音输入在这种情况下就完全失效了。

And that means that, of course, voice input is not something that's going to work well here.

这在某种程度上渗透到了我们交互界面的每个细节——那些我们曾视为理所当然的语音输入场景。

So this actually bled through to every edge of our interface in some sense, things that we had taken a voice input as for granted for.

我们不得不更深入地思考：什么才是优质的备选方案？

We had to think a little bit harder about what a good fallback option would be.

但最令人惊喜的是，我们的第三位参与者直接催生了一项功能，我们称之为'停车位'。

But I think the coolest thing that actually came out of this directly from our third participant was a feature that we call the parking spot.

光标总是在某种程度上移动着。

A cursor is always moving to some extent.

这是那种随着模型改进，希望永远不会再出现的情况之一。

This is one of those things in that bucket of like, as models improve, this will never be the case, hopefully.

但短期内，你仍然需要使用它。

But in the short term, you still want to use it.

所以会有一定程度的移动存在，模型可能错误猜测或将其与他们实际思考相关联，比如当他们与旁边的人交谈或在YouTube上看电影时。

So some amount of motion is going to be there that the model is just kind of incorrectly guessing or is correlated to them actually just thinking when for example, they're talking to somebody next to them or they're watching like a movie on YouTube.

我们的模型会将某些活动错误标记为这里的移动。

There's just some amount of activity that our models are incorrectly labeling as motion here.

你可以通过长期建模工作来解决这个问题。

You can solve this on the modeling side, longer term effort.

短期而言，你只需要某种方式来停放光标。

Shorter term, it's like you just need some way to park the cursor.

我们之前的参与者可以直接说'嘿'。

Our previous participants could just say, hey.

关闭光标，它就会直接关闭，然后他们只需说打开就能再次启用。

Turn the cursor off, and it would just turn off, and then they could just say turn it on to bring it back on again.

对于我们的第三位参与者，显然他们无法这样做。

For our third participant, obviously, they couldn't do that.

因此我们需要想出某种方法，用光标来关闭光标，再用光标重新启用它。

So we needed to think of some sort of way to use the cursor to turn the cursor off and then use the cursor to bring it back on.

我们尝试了几种方案，但最终采用的是这个称为'停车位'的方案，他们可以将光标'吃掉'或射到屏幕右下角。

We tried a few things here, but the final thing we landed on was this thing called the parking spot where they could just sort of eat their cursor or shoot their cursor into the bottom right of the screen.

如果他们把它推过去，它就会停在那里。

And if they push it there, it'll park it.

会弹出这个小东西。

It'll like this little thing will pop out.

它会锁定光标，然后他们可以通过在该表面上做出手势来重新激活它。

It'll lock lock up the cursor, and then they can actually use a gesture within that surface to bring it back out.

我们在里面应用了一系列小变换来保持它静止。

We apply a bunch of little transformations in there to hold it still.

我们在其中模拟了重力效果。

We simulate gravity inside of it.

他们仍然可以通过非常用力地推动或执行特定模式来操作。

They can still by pushing really, really hard or by actually going through a specific pattern.

比如通过点点点的操作，他们可以完全自主地将光标重新拉出来。

So like a dot dot dot, they can pull the cursor back out fully on their own.

这个设计非常酷，因为我们主要是为第三位参与者开发的。

So that was a really cool one, because we did that primarily for the third participant.

但当我们推出时，前两位参与者当时都说：等等，这太神奇了。

But when we shipped that our first two at the time, we're like, wait, this is like amazing.

实际上在最初几周，前两位参与者使用得更频繁。

And then they they actually were bigger, for the first few weeks.

他们使用这个功能的频率甚至超过了第三位参与者。

Like, they were using it far more than our third party still was.

从每位参与的个体身上，我们都能学到很多东西。

There's a lot you learn from, like, each individual participant that comes through.

实际上大多数时候，他们反馈的内容往往也会渗透到其他所有人的体验中。

And most of the time, actually, what they give you feedback about often always bleeds out to everybody else's experience as well.

像那样为光标模拟重力是什么意思？

What does it mean to simulate gravity on the cursor like that?

你可以理解为，我们只是做了正确的数学计算来解决这个问题，但也可以想象当光标进入这个停车位时的情形。

You could think of it as like, we just do the right math to work this out, but you can think of it as like when the cursor goes inside this parking spot.

几乎就像掉进了一个小山坡。

Almost like it falls into a hill.

所以光标就像这样滚下来，然后停在那里。

So like the cursor kind of rolls down here, and then it's it's sitting there.

我们显然可以调整那个山坡的深度。

We can obviously tune the depth of that hill.

所以我们可以调整，比如是一个很陡的山谷，还是一个非常平缓狭窄的山坡。

So we can tune, like, if it's a really steep valley or if it's like just a really flat, narrow hill.

但在实际操作中，这意味着他们需要更用力地推动才能让它滚上去，并在上升过程中保持动量。

But what it means in practice is that they have to push harder to roll it up there and, like, maintain momentum as they go up.

模型在任何给定时刻的实际输出并非位置坐标。

The actual, like, output of the model at any given point is not a position.

它实际上输出的是速度矢量。

It's actually, like, a velocity.

准确来说，它输出的是一种微小的推力。

So it's actually, like, a nudge, so to speak.

在这个情境下意味着，如果我们添加重力将光标向下拖拽，用户就需要手动将其滚出这个区域。

What that means in this context is, like, if we add gravity to drag the cursor down there, they'll have to actually roll it out kind of manually.

但当我提到第三位参与者在最初两周使用频率较低时，是因为那个基于重力机制的版本对他完全无效——这引出了个非常有趣的技术难题。

But when I say that our third participant actually wasn't using it as much the first two weeks, it's because it that version of it, the gravity based approach, didn't actually work for him, which is a really interesting rabbit hole.

和许多晚期渐冻症患者一样，他主要通过眼球追踪器与外界交流及操作电脑。

He like a lot of people with late stage ALS, he used an eye tracker as his primary way of, communicating with the world and using the computer.

这意味着比如看电影时，他的视线会在屏幕上到处游移。

What that meant is that when he was, like, watching a movie, for example, your eyes are all, like, all over the screen.

当时出现了个非常有趣的现象：他看电影时光标会突然弹出，甚至在他根本没注视屏幕时也会发生——即便设置了极强的重力约束。

It was a really interesting situation where when he was watching a movie, the cursor would just pop out when he's, like, not even looking at it no matter even with really, really strong gravity.

但当他真正将视线聚焦在光标上，并试图在高重力环境下将其移动到停车位内时，推动它向上移动变得异常困难。

But when he really focused his eye on the cursor and tried to move it inside the parking spot with that high gravity, it was really hard to push it up.

这确实非常有趣。

So really interesting.

是啊。

Yeah.

这种需要深入思考的细节层次确实很有意思。

That's that's a high level of depth that you have to think through that is really interesting.

最终的解决方案其实是支持两种重力模式。

The solution there actually ended up being it supports, like, two modes where you can use it with gravity.

实际上对于另外两位参与者效果非常好，以至于我们发现了新问题——比如有人反馈说‘我把光标停好正和人说话，结果屏幕就休眠了’。

And that actually for our other two participants, it worked so well that we found other issues where like one person was like, hey, I parked the cursor and I was talking to somebody and like my screen went to sleep.

他进行了整整三十分钟的对话，期间光标完全没移动过。

So like he was having like a whole thirty minute conversation where the cursor doesn't move.

在macOS系统里，如果光标不动，系统就会认为‘你没有在操作’。

And on macOS, if the cursor doesn't move, your system's like, oh, you're not doing anything.

然后屏幕会变暗并关闭。

And it'll dim the display and then shut it off.

所以在他们的情况下，效果太好了。

So in their case, it worked too well.

在他这里，确实如此。

In his case, like yeah.

至少在重力方面完全没有达到预期效果——当他看着光标时根本无法移动它。

It literally did not do with gravity at least what you'd expect at all, where when he looked at it, he couldn't move it.

而当他移开视线时，却可能因为观看内容而产生巨大速度。

And when he looked away, he could have huge velocities as he's, like, watching something.

所以我们最终为他采用了手势方案，效果非常好。

So we ended up going with a gesture for him, and that worked super well.

这样他只需做出上下左右的简单动作。

So he could just do, like, an up, down, left, right.

这些小圆点就会亮起来。

These little dots would light up.

它会按顺序跟随这些点，然后他就可以这样把光标拖出来。

It would follow them in order, and then he would just, like, pull the cursor out that way.

听你讲话很着迷，因为你痴迷于这些交互中最微小的细节。

It's fascinating to listen to you talk because you're obsessing over the smallest pieces of these interactions.

我是说，从每一个可能的角度观察和思考光标，考虑所有能实现这个功能的不同方式。

I mean, observing and thinking about a cursor from every possible angle, all the different ways that we could make this possible.

而最终目标基本上是要删除它。

And the end goal is to basically delete it.

在某种程度上，删除你完成的所有工作。

To delete all of the work that you've done to an extent.

你知道吗？

You know?

这种矛盾张力真的很有趣，不是很多人有机会在这种状态下工作。

Like, that's a really interesting tension that not many people get to operate in.

我认为最终目标就是打造一个绝佳的体验，并在每一步都做到这一点。

I think, ultimately, the goal is to just build an incredible experience and to do that in, like, every step of the way.

所以，如果我们想要达到一个可以删除光标的世界，无论那意味着什么，我们的直觉是需要大量的数据才能实现。

So, like, if the way in which we get to a world where we could, let's say, like, delete the cursor, like, whatever that means, our hunch is that getting there is going to require, like, a lot of data.

这需要对这些机制如何运作有更深入的理解。

It's gonna require a much more robust understanding of how these mechanics work.

在那个世界里，光是想象就已经非常科幻了，衡量标准不再是所谓的普通人在电脑上能做什么。

In that world, it starts to get very sci fi to even think about, but the measuring stick is no longer what a, quote, unquote, normal person can do on a computer.

你知道，你们已经突破了人与计算机交互可能性的天花板，达到了非常高的水平。

You know, you've blown the roof off of what what is possible in terms of interaction with computers at a a very high level.

对吧？

Right?

比如，在那个世界里，思考我在触控板上能多快完成某件事会显得很原始。

Like, thinking about how quickly I'm able to do something on a trackpad will feel archaic in that world.

目前的交互模式与我们使用的非常相似，但没有理由必须如此。

Right now, the interaction model is, again, very similar to the ones that we use, But there's no, like, reason it has to be.

因此我认为这个世界会出现新的交互模式，它们与我们用物理手部动作来表达的方式截然不同。

So I think there will be new interaction models in this world that are, yeah, just very different than having to use our, like, physical hands to, like, articulate something.

我不确定那是否算过时，但我觉得肯定会截然不同。

I don't know if it would be, like, archaic, but I think it would just be very different.

希望它会变得更加自然，更加直接。

Like, it'll it'll just be hopefully a lot more natural and hopefully a lot less indirect.

作为比普通听众更常思考这个特定领域发展方向的人，你有什么特别关注的具体方面吗？

Anything specific that you find yourself thinking about as someone that probably spends more time pondering where this specific world is heading than the typical person listening, for instance?

对我来说有几个方面。

I think there are a few for me.

需要说明的是，这些只是我个人感兴趣的内容，并不一定是我们正在研究的项目。

The caveat being that, like, this is definitely just, like, the stuff that I'm excited about and not necessarily stuff we're working on.

而且我觉得有趣的是，在NERLY公司，你会根据谈话对象得到百万种不同的答案。

And I also think, like, the fun thing is, like, at NERLY, you'll get a million different answers based on who you talk to.

但对我而言，很多想法都源于十五年前那项最初激发我对这个领域兴趣的研究，我认为最丰富的元素是视觉图像。

But I think for me, it really a lot of it goes back to that study from fifteen years ago that first sparked my interest in this field, which is, like, I think the richest things in my mind are visual imagery.

同时我认为，无论是作为软件设计师还是年轻时想成为电影制作人，计算机的大部分工作、魔力以及繁琐之处，都在于将脑海中的图像——无论是通过软件、After Effects还是Final Cut——花费很长时间具象化为这种人们更容易理解的视觉产物。

I also think that, like, both, like, as a software designer and as, like, a wannabe filmmaker when I was younger, like, that's where so much of the work so much of the magic of a computer is and also so much of the tedium of a computer is, is in the this process of taking an image in your mind and spending a very long time, whether it's in software, whether it's in After Effects or Final Cut, to articulate that into this visual thing that it feels like people just understand more easily.

一张图片胜过千言万语，基本上是这样。

A picture is worth a thousand words, basically.

这方面的事情正是我最期待的，你知道，展望非常遥远的未来。

That side of things is I think what I'm most excited about, you know, looking out into the very distant future.

这意味着什么，我们经常讨论如何弥合人与人之间的共情鸿沟，但这感觉像是一个更具体的版本——我可以向你展示我的感受，而不只是告诉你。

What that would mean, we talk a lot about, you know, bridging this empathy gap between folks, but, like, that feels like a much more tangible version of that where I can show you how I'm feeling instead of telling you how I'm feeling.

同时也适用于世界上人们想要创造的所有东西。

And then also just for all of the stuff that people wanna make in the world.

我认为每个人都拥有并共享着这个丰富的内心世界。

There's this rich interior space that I think everybody has and everybody shares.

有些人告诉我'我不太有创造力'时，我总觉得很有趣。

I always think it's, like, funny when some people tell me, like, oh, like, I'm just like not very creative.

你晚上会做梦吗？

Do you dream at night?

如果他们回答是，我就会说：看，你的大脑能够创造和生成多么丰富的内容。

And they're like, if so, that, like, look what your mind is capable of making and generating.

我认为这在未来将是一项极具赋能性的技术，届时你基本上可以坐在电脑前

I think that is a hugely enabling thing in the future where you can sit down on a computer basically.

在这个世界里，电脑上的模型能代表你的意图行动，比如说，在未来的某个时间帧里

And in this world where a model on that computer can act on behalf of your intent in, let's say, you know, far down the line, a frame.

所以我们现在称之为'氛围编程'的技术，在未来，模型生成你描述的作品所需时间，我认为将缩短至一个时间帧

So what we today call vibe coding, you know, in the future, like the time that it takes for a model to actually produce an artifact that you described, will I think come down to a frame.

而另一方面，现在的瓶颈是什么呢？

And the flip side of that is then what is the bottleneck here?

关键在于你能否准确表达自己想要什么

It's you actually articulate what it is that you want.

在艺术和工作等所有领域，这将是一种非常激动人心且奇妙的体验——你可以坐在电脑前，基本上就是和它一起做白日梦

In all domains in the arts, and in work, this will be a very exciting and wild experience where you can just sit down on a computer and basically daydream with it.

屏幕上会即时呈现出你脑海中想法的直接延伸

And things will pop up on screen that are a direct sort of extension of what you have in your head.

如果这一切都能在一个时间帧内完成，那会是什么样子呢？

And what would that look like if that came down to just being one frame?

我真的不知道。

I truly don't know.

但我认为那将是一个非常、非常令人兴奋的世界。

But I think that that's a really, really, exciting world to be in.

我们正在研究一种叫做'盲视'的技术。

We are working on something called blindsight.

这是这个阶梯的最初一级，即为那些失去视力的人找到某种方式，让他们重新看见世界。

That is the earliest rung in this ladder, which is that for people who no longer have vision, some way for them to see again in the world.

这意味着我们的植入体将位于大脑的视觉区域，而非当前植入体所在的运动控制区。

What this would mean is our implant sits in the part of the brain, not for motor movement, which is where our current implant is, but for vision.

我们实际上可以从他们佩戴的眼镜中读取所见内容，然后在大脑相应区域创建正确的刺激模式，试图在他们的意识中重现某种图像形态。

And we can actually read from like, let's say a pair of glasses that they wear, what they're seeing, and then create the right stimulation pattern in that part of the brain to try to recreate some form of that image in their mind.

这显然令人难以置信。

Obviously, is incredible.

但同时这也像是一个真正狂野的设计空间，因为初代版本——用个粗糙的比喻来说——会像是雅达利游戏机，而非PlayStation 5那样的高级设备。

But also it is like a truly wild design space because the first versions of this are gonna be, to use a really crude metaphor, they're gonna be like Atari as opposed to being like, you know, a PlayStation five.

因此，相对于视觉信息实际上的丰富程度，我们能够在大脑这个区域通过电极数量创造的视觉保真度将会非常有限。

So the visual fidelity that we can actually create in terms of just the number of electrodes that are in this part of the brain is going to be very small relative to how rich visual information actually is.

这就形成了一个完全独立的设计领域：如何在这个领域内‘真实’地重建一个图像？

So then that's its own completely distinct design space of like, how do you recreate an image that is true to life, quote unquote, in this domain?

哇。

Wow.

这个图像的哪些特征是需要在这里突出表现的关键要素？

What features of that image are like the right ones to highlight here?

本质上，你想给人们提供哪些可调节的参数？

What knobs do you want to give people basically?

因为他们应该对如何感知世界拥有某种形式的控制权。

Because they should have some form of control over how they see the world.

这可能会成为某种既科幻又酷炫的功能。

That can be something that's just like sci fi and cool.

比如能够对物体进行变焦观察，对吧？

It's like being able to zoom into things, right?

但它也可能是更为微妙的东西，比如——借用更多比喻来说——抖动处理。

But it could also be something far more nuanced in terms of how, you know, you want to for example, just to borrow more metaphors, dithering.

如果你熟悉抖动处理，这是一种在八十年代像素数量有限的条件下，通过利用人类感知特性设计的算法，在低分辨率空间中尝试重现我们感知到的特征（如阴影和纹理）的方式。

If you're familiar with dithering, it's like one way of in the eighties, when we were in this regime of, like, low pixel counts, to try and recreate features that we perceive through, you know, algorithms that apply that basically are artifacts of our perception and use this, like, lower sort of resolution space to still try and create some sense of, for example, like, shadows and some sense of, like, texture in this world.

那么，在这个领域中抖动处理会是什么样子呢？

So, yeah, what would dithering look like in this domain?

我在节目中听过很多内容，但这绝对是我听过最有趣的设计可能性空间之一。

I've heard a lot on this show, but that's one of the most interesting design opportunity spaces that I've ever thought of.

就像这个概念在我脑海中根本不存在，直到你分享了它。

Like, it just didn't exist in my brain until you shared that.

这真是太神奇且引人入胜，不仅因为它的新颖性，更因为你正在产生的影响确实令人难以置信。

And it's amazing and compelling, not just because of its novelty, but also just the impact that you are having is really incredible.

我知道我们在开始录制前稍微提到过，但我正在阅读一些参与者的故事。

And I I know I mentioned this just a little bit before we started recording, but I was reading some of the participant stories.

我看到诺兰——首批参与者之一——的故事，他正在重返校园，还在互联网上找到了一份工作。

And I was reading how Nolan, one of the first participants, got you know, he's going back to school, and he got a a job on the Internet.

这真是太棒了。

And it's just amazing.

真的，这让我深受感动。

Like, it moved me deeply.

所以你们所做的一切简直是最鼓舞人心的。

And so what you all are doing is just about as inspiring as it gets.

我完全同意。

I fully agree.

我认为这正是我们团队乃至整个公司的人每天起床工作的动力所在。

I think this is the stuff that people get out of bed for on our team and definitely throughout the company.

我们非常幸运能身处这样一个世界，现在有超过10个人真正在使用这个产品。

We are so privileged to be in this world now where we have 10 plus folks who are actually using the thing.

我们称他们为'神经结'，就像宇航员一样。

We call them, like, the neural knots, because, like, astronauts.

这是我们共同探索的全新领域。

It's a completely new space that we're exploring together.

他们显然已经做到了，比如回到光标过去的样子，以及现在功能运作的方式。

They've obviously done, like, back to that point of, like, what the cursor used to look like and how things work now.

当他们能真正告诉我们使用感受，以及哪些部分确实需要优化、哪些部分无关紧要时，情况就发生了巨大变化。

Things have changed dramatically once they could actually tell us how things feel and what pieces of that, like, we actually do need to optimize, what pieces of that don't really matter.

但归根结底，这能对他们生活产生的影响，对我们所有人来说都极具启发性。

But, ultimately, like, yeah, just the impact it can make on their lives has been super inspiring for all of us.

假设有人在听，并且被这段旅程所激励。

Let's say that somebody is listening and they're inspired by this journey.

他们想参与其中。

They wanna be a part of it.

你们已经开放了第二个设计工程师类型的职位。

Y'all have opened up a second, you know, design engineer type role.

能详细说说这个职位具体是做什么的吗？

So could you share a little bit more about, like, what's that role going to be like?

我相信有听众会想：这听起来很棒，但我还不太清楚具体工作内容。

I'm sure someone is listening and they're like, yeah, that could be really cool, but also I don't a 100% get what that would look like.

我的意思是，这个职位基本上涵盖了我今天谈到的所有内容，只是工作量会更大。

I mean, the role would be a lot of what I think I've talked about today, just a lot more of that.

我们现在处于这样一个阶段：已经有超过10个人每天都在积极使用这个产品。

We're at this phase now where we have, yeah, 10 plus people that actively use the thing every day.

他们每周累计使用时长达到数百小时。

They use it for, like, hundreds of hours a week collectively.

其中很重要的一部分工作，当然就是持续为他们优化使用体验。

And one piece of that is, of course, just, like, actually just continuing to make that a great experience for them.

由于我们团队规模很小，我们会高度聚焦于体验中最关键的部分——那些我们投入最多精力去完善的功能。

We generally because we are such a small team, we are super focused about what pieces of that experience, like we spend the most time on making great.

我们对'优秀'的标准定得非常高，而且希望在整个产品体验中始终保持这个标准。

And we have very high bar for like what great is, and we wanna maintain that across that whole experience.

所以首要任务就是让这个日常使用产品变得惊艳，并持续保持这种惊艳感。

So one piece of it is literally just this thing that people use literally every day, making that amazing and continuing to make that amazing.

另一部分工作则是探索我们尚未触及的所有可能性领域。

A second piece of it is all of the rungs in the ladder that we have not explored yet.

现在我们有了可以实际尝试并给出反馈的团队成员，这个过程实际上需要你从头到尾完整走一遍，这意味着你可能对事物运作方式有个初步想法或直觉，也就是所谓的假设。

The process of doing that now that we have folks who can actually try stuff and tell us is really just like, it's something you have to kind of go end to end on, which means that there may be some initial idea or hunch you have about how things might work, what you might call a hypothesis.

从假设到真正做出可供人们使用的产品，中间还有大量实际工作要做。

There's a lot of actual work in between that and making it something that somebody can actually use.

显然这其中涉及大量的设计工作。

There's obviously a lot of like design work there.

同时还需要通过工程手段将其转化为用户首次可以使用和体验的产品。

And there's also just like the engineering work of turning it into something that they can use and try out for the first time.

微妙之处在于，如果他们需要主动使用和尝试，那么首次体验未必能提供最有价值的信息。

The nuance is also that that first experience they have with it is not necessarily going to be the most informative if it's something they actually actively have to use and try.

我们参与者的优秀之处在于，他们非常愿意直接拿东西去试用和体验。

What's awesome about our participants is like they're so down to just like take something and run with it and try it.

他们使用一天和一个月的反馈质量会有显著差异。

And they will give you such great feedback after using something for like a day versus like a month.

有时候要获得有意义的信号来判断方向是否可行，需要的不仅仅是一个原型。

Sometimes it's also not just a prototype to actually get a meaningful signal on, is this a direction we want to go in it?

比如，这个功能能行得通吗？

Like, is this a feature that will work?

你需要更进一步，不能仅仅满足于在单次用户测试中勉强可用的方案，而要把它变成用户能持续使用一个月的东西。

You kind of need to go beyond, yeah, just something that will work in a hacky way in one session with a participant, and it turn it into something that they can live with for a month.

现实情况是，这些方案中的绝大多数最终都不会成功。

The vast majority of those things also, like, will not pan out is the reality of it.

所以目前我们处于这样一个阶段：既要完善一组核心功能，因为我们希望第一版产品能问世；

So right now, we're in this phase where there's both a core set of features that we know that we wanna make great because we want that v one to exist in the world.

同时还要探索更多可能性，这需要具备从设计到工程全链路推进的能力。

And also a lot of blue sky around what this could be that requires an ability both to just, like, kind of go end to end in both design and engineering.

这就是这个角色的职责。

It's the role.

但也要对某些不确定性保持适应。

But also be somewhat comfortable with things.

实验性的本质意味着存在大量不确定性——比如这个东西最终能发布吗？

It's the fact that it's experimental, meaning that, like, there will be a lot of uncertainty into, like, will this thing actually ship?

因为你希望有人能实际使用它，所以还需要投入大量工作来真正以某种形式发布，让他们可以试用。

And because you want somebody live with it, there's also a lot of work that needs to go into actually shipping it in some form so they can try.

这个蓝海部分让我觉得非常有趣，因为光是听你讲了这么一会儿，意思就已经非常明确了。

The blue sky piece is really interesting to me because even just listening to you talk now for a while, I mean, it's so clear.

你们正在做的事情与浏览Mobbin并试图拼凑现成组件、寻找世界上已有解决方案的做法完全相反。

What you're doing is the complete opposite of looking on Mobbin and trying to piece together the right pieces, the right things that already exist in the world to, like, figure out a solution.

你知道吗？

You know?

你们是真正从第一性原理出发开展工作，名副其实。

Like, you are really working from first principles in the truest sense.

那么我的问题是：你会关注候选人的哪些信号，才能让你达到确信的程度，觉得'没错'？

My question then is, what are the signals that you would even look for in a candidate that would get you to a confidence level where you're like, yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

他们确实具备推动进展、帮助我们找到下一阶段发展阶梯所需的能力？

They actually have what it takes to move the needle and help us find some of those next rungs on the ladder?

我们最优先优化的是使用界面时的实际感受。

The thing we optimize most for is feeling when it comes to what it's actually like to use the interface.

因此，尽管我们试图对无法亲身体验的空间构建模块保持原则性，但总体目标始终是创造真正令人惊叹且鼓舞人心的作品。

So as much as we try to be principled about what the building blocks should be for space that we cannot experience ourselves, I think it's just a general ambition to just make something that's like really awesome and inspiring.

我想我们都——是的，显然间接受到了参与者的启发，我们希望他们使用这个神奇新玩具时的体验是惊艳的。

I think we're all, yeah, obviously like indirectly so inspired by our participants, and we do want what it feels like for them to use these this magical new toy to be amazing.

任何对这些事有明确渴望的人，在实践中往往意味着：即便是明知可能会删除的内容，我们也会投入大量额外工作去打磨它。

Anybody who has a clear desire to do those things, that's usually what that means in practice is even for something that you know that you're probably going to delete, there's like a lot of extra work that goes into just making that amazing.

这就像许多公司在产品即将正式发布前的打磨与调优阶段所做的工作，我们会尽可能将这些工作融入实验环节，因为用户终将使用它。

The equivalent of kind of like the polishing phase and the tuning phase that you'll have at a lot of other companies when something is actually, you know, going to ship in a calendar year, we try to put as much of that as we can into just an experiment because a person will use it.

此外，原型开发能力在这个环节中至关重要。

Also, this is where the prototyping ability, like the engineering side of the role is so key.

这里的技术栈非常广泛。

The stack here is very wide.

我认为最紧密的协作实际上发生在机器学习工作与实际界面开发工作之间。

I think the tightest interplay is really between the machine learning side of the work and the actual interface side of the work.

因为机器学习这一侧，归根结底，至少目前来说，我们需要找到一种方式来标注某些内容。

Because the machine learning side, ultimately, some form of that, at least right now is, well, we need to figure out a way to label something.

所以某种程度上，标签最终与他们在屏幕上看到的内容紧密相关。

So like the label is ultimately what, on some level is very tied to what they see on screen.

这个标签能在多大程度上捕捉到真实意图，比如他们当时的真实想法。

How well that label captures the real intent here, like what they were really thinking at that time.

模型的能力决定了界面可以实现的功能。

What the models can do defines what the interface can do.

界面设计在某种程度上极大地限制了模型的能力范围。

And what the interface does in some ways heavily biases what the models can do.

因此这两者之间存在着非常直接的关联，这使得当前的主要瓶颈变成了：能否构建出一个端到端的测试方案？

So there's kind of like a very direct relationship between those two things especially that makes the primary bottleneck here just like, can you build out something to try these things end to end?

因为很多工作仅停留在离线数据层面——比如收集数据后仅进行离线分析——对于UI相关的工作来说基本是条死胡同。

Because a lot of stuff is just the offline data, meaning like trying to collect data and then just run your analysis offline, generally is a dead end for anything on like the UI side.

这意味着你必须构建一个真正完全交互式的系统才能有效验证，并可能需要与建模团队协同工作。

So it means you have to make something that is like actually fully interactive to actually validate this well, and potentially also work with folks on the modeling side.

如果你有一个非常大胆的新想法想要尝试，那会涉及很多方面。

If you have a really wild new idea you want to try, that involves a lot.

这包括收集数据的任务，也包括最终的控制界面。

It involves a task to collect the data, it involves some final interface so that they can control it.

再次强调，理想情况下这需要他们能够独立使用，并提供更丰富的信号来评估其效果。

And again, it involves ideally something that they can live with independently and give you a much richer signal on how well it's going to work.

因此，我们需要那些对所有这些充满热情的人，他们还要热衷于让每个实验都尽可能出色，这样我们才能确信，当我们遇到瓶颈时，不是因为实验本身只是个最小可行产品。

So people that, yeah, are excited about doing all of that and also are excited about making each individual experiment you run as amazing as it can be, such that we have confidence that when we hit a dead end, it's not because it was, for example, like an MVP.

我通常认为，MVP（最小可行产品）的心态有时会适得其反，因为你基本上只做了最低限度的工作，得到的结果也很平庸。

I generally think that like the mentality of like an MVP can sometimes be quite self defeating, because you've basically done the absolute minimum you possibly could have done and gotten like a pretty mid signal on something.

我们尽力尝试的每一次尝试，都会全力以赴，因为最终的结果很大程度上决定了我们未来的方向。

The shots that we try to shoot, we try to, like, shoot them as best we can because the the results that come out of that very much dictate ultimately the direction we're gonna go in.

能否从你的亲身经历中举一个例子，说明某个直觉如何引导出实验过程，帮助人们更好地了解在Neuralink工作的日常是怎样的？

Is there an example of a hunch that led to some experimentation process that you could talk through from your own experience that would help people get a little bit better sense of what it is like day in a life of someone working on Neuralink?

如果还能举例说明在整个实验中如何注重细节，那就更好了。

And maybe if there are also examples of what it looks like to sweat the details throughout that experiment, that would be great too.

这里有个很好的例子，就是我们目前称之为身体映射任务的项目。

One good example here is what we currently call the body mapping task.

当前这个任务的结构是：我们渲染了一个真实的三维手臂，并且有完整的渲染管线来绘制这个三维手臂。

The structure of this task right now is there's an actual, like, three d arm that we render, and we have a whole rendering pipeline to draw this three d arm.

这种方法意味着我们可以将你的注意力引导到非常具体的部位，然后结合我们提供的实际指导——包括指导中给出的视觉指示器。

The approach there means that we can draw your focus to very specific pieces of it and then combine it with the actual guidance that we tell you with, like, visual indicators in the guidance that we give you as well.

那么这个任务具体是做什么的呢？

So what does this task do?

这是我们最初规划时的首要事项。

This is the very first thing when we sort of spec this out.

这将是参与者做的第一件事。

This would be the very first thing that participants does.

在他们实际进入体验阶段，首次校准植入物并实现光标移动之前，他们需要先探索这个广阔的空间——你现在要重新想象移动你的手臂，这个你目前无法移动或仅有非常有限残余运动能力的手臂，并感受什么方式对他们有效。

And before they actually go into the part of the experience where they sort of calibrate their implant for the very first time and get to a moving cursor, they just explore this like wide space of like, you are now going to imagine moving your arm again, this arm that like you currently cannot move or have very limited residual motion for and get a feel for just like, what works for them.

比如，哪些动作对他们来说仍然感觉直观，即使他们无法很好地移动它，哪些则不然。

Like, what kind of motion still feels intuitive to them even though they can't move it well, which ones don't.

同时也能让我们获得——不是感受，而是信号——关于哪些动作我们能够准确读取的信息。

And then also get a feel get us not a feel, but a signal for what motions can we actually read really well.

所以当他们想象做这些动作时，那阵神经活动会是什么样子？

So when they imagine doing this, like, what does the burst of activity look like?

哪些动作在这里表现更好，哪些更弱？

And which motions seem to be better here and weaker?

然后在两者之间进行比较，比如从这一系列动作中选择一个——你知道的，上下左右移动手臂，上下左右转动手腕，还有大概四种其他可以用来移动光标的动作——从而了解对他们来说感觉良好的动作与我们实际能解码的动作之间有多少重合。

And sort of compare between the two, like, pick one from this wide set of, like, you know, moving your arm up, down, left, right, moving your wrist up, down, left, right, and, like, four other things that you could presumably use to move the cursor, getting some sense of the overlap between what feels good for them and also what we can actually decode.

我们最初的直觉主要是，在屏幕上看到那只手臂会让初次体验比我们单纯告诉他们'嘿，试试这样做'自然得多。

The hunch here was primarily that, like, seeing that arm on screen would make that first experience far more natural than us just telling them, hey.

比如，试着这样做。

Like, try doing this.

这会给他们一个可以观察和对照的参照物。

It would give them something to basically, like, look at and, like, cross reference.

而这里的细节基本上就是，好吧。

And then the details here were basically like, well, okay.

那么，我们想怎么做这件事呢？

Well, how do we wanna do this?

第一，我们可以尝试预先渲染所有这些动作。

One, we could, like, try and pre render all of these motions.

这样可能行得通。

Like, that will probably work.

但如果我们能直接解码那只手臂的动作呢？

But what if we could actually just decode that arm then?

为什么要先处理这只手臂，然后再尝试控制光标呢？

Like, why take this arm and then try to, like, go down to the cursor?

如果他们已经回到只需观察那只手臂的世界，从某些方面来说，这比想着通过移动手臂来控制光标要自然得多。

If they're already back in this world of just looking at that arm, in some ways, that's a far more natural thing to do than trying to think about moving your arm to then move a cursor.

所以这里真正的直觉是：如果我们能做到这点，他们是否也能像操纵木偶一样控制这只手臂？

So the real hunch here was if we can do this, can we also like, can they also puppet this arm, basically?

要实现这点，需要极其庞大的工程工作，因为我们不能再使用预先渲染的动画了。

To do that, that was an extraordinary amount of engineering work because we can't just use a pre rendered animation anymore.

我们需要实际渲染一个3D手臂。

We need to actually render like a three d arm.

我们需要将其网格化。

We need to mesh that out.

我们需要建立一些着色管线，这样才不至于让效果看起来很滑稽。

We need to have some shading pipeline so that we can like make that not look goofy.

显然，屏幕上出现3D手臂会产生巨大的恐怖谷效应。

There's obviously a huge uncanny valley in a three d arm on screen.

所以我们希望它基本上看起来具有最少的细节，让你能感受到手势的实际含义，而不需要那些关于手臂是什么的冗余信息。

So we wanted that to just look basically like have the minimum amount of detail for you to, get a feel for what the gesture actually is without like all of the redundant information about like what an arm is.

同时我们也希望它感觉自然。

And we wanted to also like feel natural.

所以我们基本上不想使用骨架结构。

So we didn't want to use like a skeleton basically.

你也可以设计成能看到所有骨骼的样子，但我们觉得那样做出来的体验不会很酷。

Like you could also do something where you see all the bones, but like that didn't feel like it was going to be a really cool experience to us.

最后，我们额外添加了一点完全没必要但觉得超酷的魔法效果——现在你有了这只手臂，我们还需要配上文字说明动作类型。

And then finally, like one extra bit of magic that we absolutely did not need to do, but we thought it'd be really cool if now you have this arm and we also need to give you some text to like tell you what the kind of motion is.

比如要做个‘捏’的动作时，我们就需要弹出提示说‘嘿，捏这只手臂’。

So for example, like if you're gonna do like a squeeze, like we need to So, like, pop up something that says, hey.

捏这只手臂。

Squeeze this arm.

这效果会很棒，因为文字就在屏幕上，你的视线本来就会聚焦在那里。

It'd be really cool if because that's on screen, so your eye is going to already be looking there.

如果文字本身能配合手臂动作动态呈现，就能强化整体效果。

If the sort of text itself can embody that motion alongside the arm just to, like, reinforce that whole thing.

于是我们做了这些狂野的文字动画——当你做捏的动作时，‘捏’字会聚焦放大，背景所有内容都会后移。

Then we did these wild text animations where, like, when you do the squeeze, like, the squeeze itself kind of, like, focuses in so everything in the background sort of, recedes.

然后这个‘捏’字还会做动态字体效果，

And then the squeeze actually, like, we do kinetic type.

让它完全随着捏的动作同步收缩。

So it, fully squeezes in alongside the motion itself.

这就是一个我们完全没必要做的例子。

So that's an example of something we totally did not need to do.

但它就是很酷。

It's just cool.

这里的直觉其实是：如果这个方案有效，基本上，如果我们能通过屏幕上显示这只手臂并使其视角与用户位置相匹配来建立这种身心连接，那么或许我们就能创造一个简单的想象空间，让他们在脑海中想着‘好，现在要挤压手臂’。

The hunch here was actually that if this works, basically, if there is this mind body connection that we can induce by then just having this arm on screen, having the perspective of it feel right relative to like where they are, that maybe we can actually have this simple imaginary space where in their head they're just like, okay, now squeezing the arm.

我完全不用考虑这些关节问题。

I'm not thinking about all these joints.

我并不是在考虑移动每根手指

I'm not thinking about like moving each individual finger.

我只是想着，哦，我要捏手臂了

I'm just like, oh, I'm squeezing the arm.

然后我们就能解码这个动作

And then we would be able to decode that.

如果我们能解码这个动作，那将是个非常丰富的交互空间

And if we can decode that, like the that's a really rich interaction space.

对吧？

Right?

我不再考虑移动光标了。

I'm not thinking about moving a cursor anymore.

我只想着移动我的手臂。

I'm just thinking about moving my arm.

显然，因为这是我以前能做到的事，这真的非常酷。

And obviously, because this is something I could do before, that's also, like, really, really cool.

这不是光标，而是一条完整的手臂，这条手臂我已经失去了移动能力。

It's not a cursor, but it's a it's a full arm, this arm that I no longer have the ability to move.

结果并不理想，因为我们第一周尝试解码这个信号时，效果远不如解码光标信号——从直觉上讲这很合理，毕竟手臂动作空间大得多。

It did not pan out in the sense that we could not on the first week, like, we tried, actually decoding this, and it was just far worse than decoding the cursor, which makes sense intuitively in the sense that it's a much bigger space.

但说到底，我们当时就是不确定。

But ultimately, like, we just, like, didn't know.

所以，这只是一个直觉猜想。

So there was, a hunch.

它没成功。

It didn't work.

这并不意味着未来也不会成功。

That doesn't mean that it won't work in the future.

但当时，这就像是在赌——如果我们能解码整条手臂，需要付出什么代价才能实现？又如何将之与我们已知的目标统一起来？

But at the time, like, it was just a bet on what if we could decode the full arm, what would it take to get there, and then how do we unify that with what we already know we wanna do?

真有趣。

It's funny.

我提前看了你们想招的第二位设计师的职位描述，其中有句话我记在了笔记里。

I went ahead and read the job description for the second designer that you're trying to bring on, and there was a line that I pasted into my notes.

我想提出来找个例子说明——他们需要‘有雄心去构建超越现有可行方案局限、让人感觉神奇的事物’。

I wanted to bring it up and look for an example, which was they need the ambition to build something that feels magical beyond the local minima of that which works.

我觉得你通过那段文字的挤压效果已经很好地回答了这个问题。

And I think you pretty much already answered that question with the squeezing of the text.

完全没必要，但又是多么有趣的带来愉悦的方式啊。

Totally unnecessary, but also, like, what a fun way to bring delight.

而你将其付诸实验的事实，正是我寻找的完美例证——即便在短期内完全不知技术上是否可行，仍选择超越极限。

And the fact that you did that into an experiment is the perfect example that I was looking for of going above and beyond even when you have no idea if this is technically even possible, at least in the short run.

Ruse，这次对话真是太棒了。

Well, Ruse, this has been amazing.

感谢你创造了这期最独特的节目之一。

Thank you for creating one of the most unique episodes.

可能是我有史以来最独特的一期。

Probably the most unique episode that I ever had.

光是听你思考这组交互和设计可能性的方式就令人着迷。

Like, just hearing the way that you think about this set of interactions and design opportunities is truly fascinating.

非常感谢你今天能来与我们分享。

Really appreciate you coming on and sharing with us today.

是啊。

Yeah.

谢谢邀请。

Thanks for having me.

这次真是太有趣了。

This was a ton of fun.

在结束之前，我想花一分钟向你介绍我最喜欢的产品，因为经常有人问我用哪些工具。

Before I let you go, I wanna take just one minute to run you through my favorite products because I'm constantly asked what's in my stack.

Framer是我搭建网站的工具。

Framer is how I build websites.

Genway是我做研究的工具。

Genway is how I do research.

Granola是我在评审时做笔记的工具。

Granola is how I take notes during crit.

Jitter是我为设计制作动画的工具。

Jitter is how I animate my designs.

Lovable是我用代码实现创意的工具。

Lovable is how I build my ideas in code.

Maven是我寻找设计灵感的工具。

Maven is how I find design inspiration.

Paper是我像创意人一样设计的工具，而Raycast则是我每一步的快捷方式。

Paper is how I design like a creative, and Raycast is my shortcut every step of the way.

我精心挑选了这些公司，以便能全职制作这些节目。

Now I've hand selected these companies so that I can do these episodes full time.

因此，目前支持节目的最佳方式就是去了解它们。

So by far, the number one way to support the show is to check them out.

你可以在dive.club/partners找到完整列表。

You can find the full list at dive.club/partners.