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当你从事情报工作时，会达到这样一种状态——如果我们不采取极端措施，每一天都可能是最后一天。
When you're working intelligence operations, you get to this point where you're like, any day might be the last day if we don't do something drastic or any way we'll go.
今天，我与一位前黑贝雷帽特种部队审讯专家进行了对话。
Today, I sit down with an ex Black Beret special forces interrogation expert.
我们经历了极其严酷的训练，那是你能想象到压力最大的事情。
We go through some serious crazy training, and it's the most stressful thing you can imagine.
我们不应该被看见。
We should not be seen.
我们应该在第二天就被遗忘。
We should be forgotten the next day.
这个人花了二十多年从事高度机密的工作，学习如何审讯世界各地的人，让他们交出情报机密。
This guy spent over twenty years on doing very secret things, learning how to interrogate people from all around the world to literally get them to give up secrets of intelligence.
如果你观察任何成功人士，他们都掌握了这三件事。
If you look at anyone who's successful, they've mastered these three things.
你看那些失败的人，他们都在其中一件事上栽了跟头。
You look at anyone who's failed, they failed at one of these three things.
那就是观察、沟通和自我掌控。
And that's, observation, communication, and then self mastery.
我们讨论了如何识别别人是否在对你说谎，你需要寻找的确切迹象，以及大多数人认为能透露谎言信息但实际上完全错误的那些表现。
We talked about how to spot if someone's lying to you and the exact things that you need to look for and the things that most people think give off information that someone's lying, but they get it completely wrong.
真正重要的是要善于察觉变化。
What's really important is being good at detecting change.
所以如果我看到一大堆变化，几乎可以确定这个人在欺骗。
So if I see a big pile of changes, I can be almost certain that this person is being deceptive.
我们讨论了如何让人自愿招供并透露信息。
We talked about how to then get people to voluntarily confess and to get them to give up information.
如果你正在与某人交谈并想获取敏感信息，问的问题越少越好。
If you're ever talking to somebody and you want sensitive information, the less questions you ask, the better.
因此，使用陈述句是一种非常有效的方法，这种方法被称为触发纠正记录的需求。
So using statements is a really effective way to do this, and this one is called triggering a need to correct the record.
神经科学、医学神经科学以及神经内分泌学的研究。
The study of neuroscience, medical neuroscience, and then neuroendocrinology.
我发现自己患有癫痫，而且是颞叶癫痫，直接攻击海马体——我们记忆所在的位置。
I found out I had epilepsy, and it was temporal lobe epilepsy, so it hits you right in the hippocampus, where our memories are.
那感觉直击灵魂深处。
And it is soul shaky.
我的癫痫发作持续约六十秒。
My seizures were about sixty seconds long.
这简直就像恐怖电影。
It's it's a it's a horror movie.
在这次访谈结束时，你将学会如何准确识破谎言。
By the end of this interview, you're gonna learn exactly how to spot lies.
你将学会如何让他们向你坦白。
You're gonna learn how to make them confess to you.
但最重要的是，你将学会如何前所未有地读懂人心。
But most importantly, you're gonna learn how to read people like you've never learned how to read them before.
你将了解人们潜意识深处的真正驱动力，为何所有人都戴着面具，以及如何利用这点获取他们从未告诉过任何人的信息。
You're gonna learn what really drives people at a deep unconscious level, why all people are wearing masks, and how to use this to your advantage to get them to give up information that they have never told anybody.
如果你是刚接触这个频道的新朋友，欢迎收听《勇敢追梦》播客。
And if you're a brand new to this channel, welcome to the Dream Out Loud podcast.
请确保在你收听或观看的平台订阅我们，因为我们每周都会发布访谈和节目，帮助你掌握技能和心态，创造理想生活。
Make sure you subscribe wherever you're listening or watching this because we put out interviews and episodes every single week to help you learn the skill set and the mindset to create your dream life.
那么事不宜迟，有请多部畅销书作者、世界头号肢体语言专家——蔡斯·休斯。
So without further ado, please help me and welcome multiple best selling author, world's number one body language expert, Chase Hughes.
蔡斯·休斯，欢迎来到我们的播客。
Chase Hughes, welcome to the podcast.
很高兴来到这里，老兄。
Good to be here, man.
嗯，你现在是在我家。
Well, you're here at at mine.
我大老远跑到这鸟不拉屎的地方。
I've come all the way to the middle of nowhere.
真的。
Literally.
是啊。
Yeah.
但我对这次对话感到非常兴奋。
But I'm I'm very, excited for this conversation.
我在网上看过很多你的内容。
I've watched a lot of your stuff online.
关于这个话题，我真的很感兴趣，而你把它做到了一个全新的极致。
When it comes to this topic, I'm really curious about it, and you are someone who's done it for it to like a whole new extreme.
在识别欺骗、影响力以及这类领域，你堪称世界顶级的教育者之一。
You're like one of the top in the world educators when it comes to finding deception, influence, and all these sorts of things.
所以我想直接切入主题，请问你更擅长影响与说服，还是识破谎言并获取供词？
So I wanna get right into it, and I wanna ask you, are you better at influence and persuasion or spotting lies and getting them to confess?
我认为获取供词本身就是影响与说服的过程。
I think getting that confession is influence and persuasion.
但我会说我更擅长影响与说服。
But I would say I'm much better at influence and persuasion.
你在海军舰艇上从事机密工作二十年，这部分我们可以稍后深入探讨。
Where else have it so you spent twenty years on a navy ship doing secret stuff, which we can dive into a little bit later.
在职业生涯之外，你觉得这些技能在日常生活和商业销售中有何实际用处？
Outside of the professional career, how have you felt it useful in the everyday life and business and the sales?
还有
And
我认为人们往往觉得只要拿到某个话术脚本或知道该说什么，就能做得更好。
I think what people tend to think is that if I just get this script or if I just get this thing of what to say, I'm gonna be better.
所以当我培训销售部门或公司时，他们总是说'我们需要给销售团队更多话术脚本，因为这些脚本转化率高'。
So when I go train sales departments or companies, they're like, oh, we need more scripts for our sales team because these scripts are converting.
我总会告诉他们'这不是我发现的'。
I always tell them it's not I discovered.
我花了十年时间寻找完美的话术脚本。
I spent ten years in search of the perfect script.
回归日常生活后，你会发现一切都关乎人际技巧，而你作为个人的特质占了影响力的80%。
And getting into regular life, you see that everything is about human skills and who you are as a person is 80% of influence.
我认为这很重要。
And I think it matters.
我一生中学到最重要的事情是，当涉及影响力时——无论是育儿、领导力、管理，还是生活中的任何方面。
The biggest thing that I've ever learned in my life was that when it comes to influence, and that's parenting, leadership, management, whatever you're doing in your life.
其中80%取决于你是什么样的人。
80% of that is who you are.
10%在于你的言行。
10% is what you say and do.
还有10%取决于对方是什么样的人。
And 10% is who the other person is.
所以我们的品格比什么都重要，这一点已在无数研究中得到验证。
So our character matters more than anything else, and that's been replicated in a bazillion studies.
10%在于读懂他人。
10% reading other people.
你这话是什么意思？
What do you mean by that?
在说服他人时，10%取决于你的言辞。
Well, 10% is what you say when it comes to persuasion.
这仅占约10%，而人们往往只关注这10%。
That's only about 10%, and everyone tends to focus on this 10%.
从中央情报局到二手车销售公司，无一例外。
This is everybody from the CIA all the way down to a car sales company that does used cars.
他们专注于如何说正确的话，而非改变自我本质。
They're focused on like, how do I say the right things instead of how do I change who I am?
因此问题应始终是：我需要成为怎样的人才能让对方做X、Y、Z？
So the question should always now be, who do I have to be to make this person do x, y, and z?
话术模板固然重要，但只有在掌握人性要素后才真正有效。
The scripts are great, but the scripts are great to have once you've got the human element mastered.
当你达到某种自我掌控的境界，拥有能改变局面的自信时——
You've got some a level of self mastery there and some confidence that makes a difference.
就像我常说的：我可以给你完美的话术模板。
And the one thing I always say, like, I can give you the perfect script.
如果我给你一份波音737的飞行检查清单，这并不会让你成为飞行员。
If I give you a flight checklist for a Boeing seven thirty seven, it does not make you a pilot.
这需要投入时间和精力。
Like there's there's time and energy that goes into that.
因此，你作为飞行员的存在方式比拥有一份飞机起飞检查清单更为重要。
So it who you are being a pilot matters more than I possess a checklist on how to take this plane off.
好的。
Okay.
那么说到这个，实际上在我继续之前，我想为那些可能刚刚心碎的人更深入地理解这一点，他们可能一直在想着‘我一直在用那些话术’这件事。
So when it comes to well, actually, before I move on then, I want understand this a little bit more for the people who might have just got their heart broken thinking about I've been doing the scripts.
它们仍然很重要。
They're still important.
是的。
Yeah.
那么很明显，如果你说10%的影响力来自言语，还有80%来自其他方面，在影响他人时，我们究竟需要掌握或更加注意内在的哪些方面呢？
So what is the obviously, if you say something 10% and there's 80%, what is it that we've got to sort of master within or be more aware of within when it comes to influence?
这是我们的权威等级。
This is our level of authority.
米尔格拉姆实验就是个很好的例子，他们让一个人电击——或者说他们以为自己正在电击另一个房间里的陌生人至死。
And a good example of this is the Milgram experiment, where they got a person to shock or they thought they were shocking a total stranger in another room to death.
他们迫使这些人电击对方至死。
They made them shock them to death.
67%的人全程服从指令直到最后。
67% of the people complied all the way to the end.
这种高压状态。
This high voltage.
但不是100%的人都越过了足以致命的电压阈值吗？
But didn't 100% go past the point where they would have killed them?
是的。
Yeah.
100%的人都超过了200伏特。
100% went past 200 volts.
是的。
Yeah.
而这正是因为权威。
And that was because of authority.
比如，根本没有剧本。
Like, there was no script.
你觉得卖车很难或者卖药品很难。
So you think selling cars is hard or selling pharmaceutical products is hard.
然后你看到这种情况——说服一个人去杀人，我认为比推销员的工作更难。
And then you see this like talking someone into murder, I would argue, is harder than sayers.
他们没有任何剧本。
And they didn't have any scripts.
他们没有什么完美的书面指导。
They didn't have some perfect thing written down.
这就是权威的力量。
It was authority.
在我所教授的内容中，权威由五个要素构成：自信、自律、领导力、感恩和享受。
And in what I teach, authority is comprised of five elements and that is confidence, discipline, leadership, gratitude and enjoyment.
这五个要素让你成为权威人物，如果允许我稍作延伸，人们心理上犯的头号错误、最破坏他们成功的就是认为自信或权威与他人有任何关系。
Those five things make you an authority figure, and if I might extend this answer a little bit, the number one mistake, the number one thing that people mentally make that ruins their success is thinking that confidence or authority has anything to do with anybody else.
因为当有人说'我在这里有权威'或'我有权威'时，他们想的是某种社会等级，比如我高于这个人，或我管理这些人。
Because when somebody says the word, I have authority here, or I have authority, they're thinking in terms of some social hierarchy, like I'm above this person, or I'm over these people.
而等级和地位与权威及自信毫无关联。
And hierarchy is in status are not related in any way to authority and self confidence.
所以这就是最大的错误。
So that's the biggest mistake.
所以要从你的头脑中彻底清除，让你余生永远不再考虑。
So getting out of your head to the point where you will never ever for the rest of your life.
如果我现在正在和你的观众之一对话，那么余生永远不要再考虑等级制度、啄食顺序和地位了，因为这是摧毁你的头号因素。
If I'm talking to one of your viewers right now, never for the rest of your life think about hierarchy, pecking order, and status ever again, because that's the number one thing that destroys you.
这太有趣了，因为我一直在思考这个问题。
That's so interesting, because I've always thought about that.
那么按照你的说法，权威是影响力中最重要的因素之一。
So authority you're saying is one of the biggest things then when it comes to influence.
你提到了五个要素，我们能再深入探讨一下吗？
So you mentioned the five things, so can we touch a bit more on this?
比如我们如何在日常生活中真正培养更多权威？
Like how do we really develop more authority in our everyday life?
是的。
Yeah.
我会做的一件事是，我有一份花了二十年时间构建的文档。
One thing I'll do, I have a document that took me twenty years to build.
这是一份测量你权威水平并准确指出你不足之处的调查问卷。
And it's a survey to measure your level of authority and tell you exactly where you're lacking it.
你可以把它放在你的节目备注里。
And you can put it in your show notes.
好的。
Yeah.
一结束就发给你。
To you as soon as we're done.
说到权威，首先要有自信。
So when it comes to authority, we have confidence first.
自信其实就是自在。
And confidence is just comfort.
你可以把它单纯理解为'我很自在'。
If you just think of it as I being comfortable.
如果你是那种人——我要告诉你，你可能经常纠结'我在比较自己，在这个等级秩序中处于什么位置，在这个层级中表现如何'。
So if you were the type of person and I'll say this to you, you've ever struggled with, I'm comparing myself, where am I on this pecking order, how am I doing on this hierarchy?
我衡量自己与他人的唯一标准——这也是我要推荐给所有观众的方法——就是'我比那个人更自在吗？'
The only way that I compare myself to other people, and this is what I'll recommend for everybody watching this, is am I more comfortable than that?
就这么简单。
That's it.
我比那个人更自在吗？
Am I more comfortable than that other person?
因此挑战不在于比别人更优秀或地位更高，而在于更从容。
So the challenge would not be to be better or higher than the person it is to be more comfortable.
最快的方法就是训练我的身体动作比房间里所有人都更慢。
And the fastest way to do that is I train my body to move slower than everybody else in the room.
我更慢，仅此而已。
I'm slower and that's it.
我说话更自信、更稳妥。
I'm speaking more confidently, more securely.
我语速更慢。
I'm speaking more slowly.
这就是从现在开始的挑战。
That's the challenge from here on.
如果你想展现自信。
If you're trying to do confidence.
而自信的本质在于自我许可。
And confidence is all about permission.
百分之百是关于许可。
The 100% it's about permission.
在这个情境下，我是否觉得自己有权利以某种方式行事？
Do I feel permission to behave a certain way in this context?
大多数人认为会有某种东西告诉我能做什么，但真正的自信意味着我会直接去做。
And most people think that there is something that will tell me what I can do, but actual confidence means I'm going to do.
所有我想做的事。
Everything I want to do.
我不需要许可单才能感到自信。
I don't need a permission slip to feel confident.
这个话题本身就可以讨论整整一小时。
Then we could go into that for a whole hour by itself.
是的，然后我们还有自律。
Yeah, then we have discipline.
我把自律定义为。
And I just define discipline as.
你优先考虑未来自我的能力。
Your ability to prioritize your future self.
胜过当下的自己。
Ahead of your present itself.
就是这样。
That's it.
而开始培养自律最简单的方式，就是从自律中获得多巴胺。
And the simplest way to start hacking into discipline is to get dopamine from discipline.
就像你睡前那晚，几分钟前还站在我家厨房里。
So like the night before you go to bed, you were just standing in my kitchen a few minutes ago.
我那儿有个小K杯咖啡机。
I've got a little Keurig coffee maker there.
所以睡觉前，我会把咖啡放进去，掀开盖子确认有水，把咖啡杯摆好准备就绪。
So before I go to bed, I'm putting the coffee in there, lifting the lid, making sure there's water there, putting my coffee mug there ready to go.
这样当我醒来时，走过去一按按钮就行。
So when I wake up, I go flip and I push a button.
所以我正在为未来的自己做好准备，这样我就能与未来的自己建立一种关系。
So I'm setting things up for my future self to where I'm developing a relationship with my future self.
所以我不再带着遗憾回首过去。
So I'm no longer looking backwards with regret.
我带着感恩回首过去。
I'm looking backwards with gratitude.
我感谢我所做的一切。
I'm thankful for everything that I did.
几个月前，我做了这件事。
A few months ago, I did this.
因为夏天即将来临，我们正在夏季拍摄这个。
Since summertime is coming around, we're filming this in the summer.
春天时，我会在几件冬衣里放上五十或一百美元钞票，因为我之后会忘记这事，晚些时候才会发现。
In the spring, I'll put like fifty or one hundred dollars bills in some of my winter coats just as like, because I'll find that late, I'll forget about it.
但我会在年底发现它，这是给我自己的礼物，我从自己这里获得了多巴胺。
But I'll find it later in the year and it's a gift to myself and I'm getting dopamine from me.
我成为了自己的多巴胺来源。
I become my source of dopamine.
所以最好的方法是，人们会看到，哦，那个人总是去健身房。
So the best way to do that, and people see like, oh, that guy's, somebody's going to the gym all the time.
他非常有自律性。
He's got so much discipline.
那不是自律。
That's not discipline.
那只是一个习惯，开始只需要一汤匙的自律。
That's a habit that took like a tablespoon of discipline to get started.
这就是你所看到的全部。
That's all you're seeing.
所以有人吃得健康，他们很自律。
So somebody's eating healthy, they're disciplined.
他们不是，他们只是养成了习惯。
They're not, they just have a habit.
所以养成习惯最快的方法，就是思考如何从中获得即时满足感？
So the fastest way to get a habit is to figure out how can I get dopamine from me doing this so?
那些小细节。
Those little things.
我今天能做些什么？
What can I do today?
不仅仅是为了二十年后的自己。
Not just for myself twenty years from now.
我该如何实现？
How can I?
我怎样才能在明天就获得快速回报？
How can I get myself quick rewards tomorrow?
比如提前准备好衣物。
You know, lay my clothes out.
一切都安排妥当。
Everything's set up.
我醒来时发现一切都准备好了，就像有位管家连夜为我布置好了一切。
I've got everything like I wake up and it's like I had a butler overnight like set all this stuff up for me when I wake up.
我简直惊呆了。
I'm like wow.
所以我对自己心怀感激。
So I'm like thankful to myself.
这如何能让人变得更权威呢？
How is that something that plays a role in being more authoritative?
仅仅是保持自律。
Just having discipline.
我给你举个例子。
I'll give you an example.
假如你我正坐在机场，你几小时后就要飞往罗利-达勒姆机场。
If you and I were sitting in an airport, you're going to be going down to Raleigh Durham Airport here in a few hours.
如果我们在机场里闲逛。
If you and I were hanging out there in the airport.
我对莫琳说，看看这个房间。
And I said Maureen, look around the room right here.
你不是专业的行为分析师，但你能找出一个有纪律的人吗？
You're not a professional behavior profiler, but can you find somebody that's disciplined?
我们能够看出来。
We could see it.
我们能感受到人们身上的纪律性，因为他们的行为与众不同。
We feel discipline on people because they behave differently.
他们的行为方式不同。
They act differently.
如果我说环顾四周找个自信的人，你的大脑知道如何识别。
And if I say look around and find somebody that's confident, your brain knows how to spot that.
你的大脑知道怎么做。
Your brain knows how to do that.
自从我们开始进化以来，大脑已经这样运作了百万年，所有这些都会触发人类大脑判断这个人比那个人更值得追随。
It's been doing it for a million years since we've been kind of evolving and all of these things trigger the human brain to say this person is more followable than that person.
所以当我们看到权威人物时，这是我们哺乳动物的大脑在说那个人看起来更容易追随。
So when we see authority figures, it's our mammalian animal brain saying that looks more easy to follow.
所以只要具备这一点，然后领导力就是变得更具追随性。
So just having that, and then leadership is being more followable.
我表达得清楚吗？
Am I communicating clearly?
我完成我的动作了吗？
Do I complete my movements?
所以你会看到有些人做动作只做一半。
So you'll see people that do half movements.
比如他们想伸手拿水杯，你会发现他们没有完全伸过去。
So they want to reach for a water glass, and you'll see that they don't do it all the way.
或者他们会表现得像是，哦，对。
Or they'll look like, oh, yeah.
对，这样说得通。
Yeah, that makes sense.
所以他们没有完成动作。
So they don't complete movements.
这自动让你变得不那么容易被跟随，从而削弱了你的领导力。
That makes them automatically you become less followable, which makes you less of a leader.
哇，他认为他们可能是出于紧张才那样做的。
Wow, and he thinks that they may be doing that out of like a nervousness.
我不知道那一刻该做什么，是的，所以我回想起来，我肯定在某些场合也这样做过，天哪。
I don't know what to do in that moment or yeah, so I'm thinking back like I've definitely done that in like if there's sometimes my God.
发生了什么？
What happened?
是啊。
Yeah.
我也是。
And so have I.
所以发生的情况是，我们的大脑开始进行这些计算并自问：我是什么？
So what happens is our brain starts doing these calculations and says, what am I?
我要去拿水吗？
Am I going to pick up at water?
这样就能拿起这个，我会看起来很从容。
That's going to pick this up and I'm going to look comfortable.
我会看起来很酷。
I'm going to look cool.
这意味着我们活在自己的思维后面。
So that means we're living behind our eyes.
我们的体验就在这眼睛后方。
Our experience is back here behind my eyes.
所以我希望在对话中集中我全部的注意力和存在感。
So I want to focus on in conversations all of my presence, my focus.
如果我自信且舒适，我就不会躲在思维后面。
If I'm confident and comfortable, I'm not behind my eyes.
我希望能在对话中直面眼前。
I want be in front of my eyes on the conversation.
正是这份自信、从容和行动的许可让你能够直面眼前。
That just the confidence and being comfortable and having permission to act puts you in front of your eyes.
所以这种体验就像是，我要停止那些因过度思考而做出的行为，而不是纠结‘我该不该喝口水？’
So that's the experience of like, I'm going to stop doing behaviors because I'm overthinking those behaviors instead of should I get a drink of water?
而是‘我想喝水，我就要去喝’这样简单直接。
It's I want water and I'm going to do that and complete Okay, that so we covered are we covered?
纪律性领导力。
Disciplined leadership.
是。
Yes.
感恩。
Gratitude.
你可能想问，感恩能有什么效果呢？
And you're like, well, how would gratitude have an effect?
但如果我们还坐在那个机场里，我会说，去找一个心怀感恩的人。
But if we're still sitting in that airport and I said, find somebody that's grateful.
你看到有人眼角的皱纹就在这里，他们只是单纯享受在机场行走这样平凡的事，脸上挂着淡淡的微笑。
And you see somebody with those wrinkles right here and you see them like and just enjoying the mundane act of walking through an airport and you see just a very slight smile on their face.
所以感恩就像瀑布一样流入这种享受中。
So gratitude is kind of a waterfall into that enjoyment.
一个自得其乐的人，并不需要时刻狂欢作乐。
So a person who's enjoying themselves, they don't have to be partying all the time.
这与能量水平无关。
This is not like you're it's not about energy level.
关键在于当下的心态。
It's about mindset in the moment.
享受并不意味着我要置身于派对中心，周围都是狂欢的人。
So it's not enjoyment doesn't mean I'm in the middle of some party and everybody's.
我走到哪里就把派对带到哪里。
I bring the party everywhere I go.
那并不是真正的享受。
That's not what that is.
那是兴奋。
That's excitement.
所以我们谈论的是享受。
So what we're talking about is enjoyment.
如果我心情愉快，安静、平和地享受我正在做的事情，这自然让我更具吸引力。
So if I'm in a good mood and I'm quietly, calmly enjoying things that I'm doing, that automatically makes me more magnetic.
而当你变得更具吸引力时，你自然就更值得追随。
And the moment you become more magnetic, you're automatically more followable.
这就是让人更值得追随的五个特质。
So those are the five traits that make a person more followable.
自信、自律、领导力、感恩和享受。
Confidence, discipline, leadership, gratitude, and enjoyment.
这是其中一个要点，对吧？
And that's one of the main things, right?
因为接下来我想讨论的是，在影响他人时，我们首先需要了解人们大脑中的什么？
Because what I want to talk about next, it's what do we need to understand about people in the brain when it comes to like, what do we need to know first in order to influence?
根据你刚才所说的，因为我们大脑的一部分，最重要的功能之一就是求生本能。
And from what you just said then is, because I know like part of our brains, one of the most important things is we want to stay alive.
数百万年前，我们在族群中更安全，在部落中更安全，所以我想这就是为什么当我们发现某人是权威人物时，会感到跟随他们是安全的。
So millions of years ago, we're safer in a clan, we're safer with the tribe, so I guess that's probably why if we find someone who's, oh they're the authority person, I feel safe to follow them.
这大概就是原因所在，对吧？
That's probably why it's a thing, right?
那么在深入研究影响力和识破谎言之前，我们需要了解大脑的哪些方面？
So what do we need to understand about the brain before we dive into depths of influence and spotting lies and all this?
是的，让我们先来了解一下大脑的层级结构。
Yeah, so let's do a little hierarchy of the brain.
大脑的结构，让我们从最底层开始讲起。
So the brain kind of let's start at the bottom.
如果你问大多数人——我在大型研讨会上演讲时也这样做——我会告诉所有人：举起你的手指。
If you ask most people, and I do this when I speak at big seminars and stuff, I tell everybody like pick up your finger.
然后指向你大脑的底部，每个人都会指向这里，好像你的大脑末端就在下方
And then point to the base of your brain and everybody points right here like your brain is the end of your brain is down
是在这里，对吧？
here, right?
比如迷走神经。
Like the vagus nerve.
对。
Yeah.
在脊髓末端，我们脊髓的末端被称为马尾，拉丁语意为马尾巴，因为看起来像一束神经组成的马尾。
So at the end of your spinal cord to the end of our spinal cord is called the cauda equina, which is Latin for horse tail because it looks like a horse tail of nerves coming out.
是的，我见过那个。
Yeah, I've seen that.
所以这才是我们大脑的实际基部。
So that's the actual base of our brain.
然后是脊髓脑干，接着是这个哺乳动物大脑，最上面是人类大脑，也就是新皮层，拉丁语意为新覆盖物。
So spinal cord brainstem, then this mammalian brain and then the human brain on top of it, which is the neocortex, which is Latin for new cover.
它只是覆盖在其他大脑结构上方的新皮层。
It's just a new covering on top of the other brain.
你得这么想，就像我如何说服别人一样，我的说服力越能作用于对方大脑的底层，效果就会提升100%。
And You got to think of that in terms of like the way that I persuade somebody, the lower I can get my persuasion to work on that person's brain, 100% more effective.
所以越深入越有效。
So the deeper So sense.
嗯，好的。
Yeah, Okay.
所以其中一部分就像是底层的冲动和本能，然后是情感和行为模式。
So one of them would be like impulse and instinct down here, then emotions and behavioral patterns.
再往上就是思想和观念。
Then up here would be thoughts and ideas.
而大多数人，我要研究如何改变人们的想法和观念。
And most people, I'm going to study how to change people's thoughts and ideas.
这就是他们研究的领域。
That's what they study.
他们不懂如何改变别人的哺乳动物脑。
They don't understand how to change that mammalian brain of other people.
我该如何利用这一点？
How do I capitalize?
我该如何吸引并引导那个哺乳动物大脑的注意力？
How do I kind of capture and lead the attention of that mammalian brain?
那我们该怎么做呢？
So how do we do that?
哺乳动物大脑在寻找什么？
What's the mammalian brain looking for?
就像你说的那些脚本之类的东西。
This is like you talk about scripts and these things.
就是这样。
This is it.
哺乳动物大脑会寻找四样东西。
So the mammalian brain looks for four things.
我们为此准备了一个缩写词叫FATE（命运），F-A-T-E，因为它决定了我们的命运。
And we have an acronym for this called FATE, F A T E, because that determines our fate.
所以它超级容易记住。
So it's super easy to remember.
而我无意中拼出了'命运'这个词，当时我特别兴奋。
And I accidentally spelled out fate, and I was so excited.
就像我在构思这个模型如何运作时，它意外地拼出了'命运'这个词，这是最令人兴奋的事情。
Like when I was coming up with how this model works, it spelled fate on accident when it was the most exciting thing ever.
所以FATE代表专注(Focus)、权威(Authority)、部落(Tribe)和情感(Emotion)。
So fate stands for focus, authority, tribe, and emotion.
这些正是影响我们祖先的因素。
Those are what influenced our ancestors.
在那个
In that
顺序？
order?
就是这个顺序。
In that order.
有意思。
Interesting.
因为我们首先需要集中注意力。
Because we need to get focused first.
让我们回到一万年前的部落社会。
So Let's go back ten thousand years in tribal communities.
假设你每天外出猎杀野牛。
Let's say that you go out and you're hunting buffalo every day.
于是你拿着长矛，沿着小路前行，某天日落时分你正返回村庄，突然灌木丛后传来树枝断裂声。
So you take your spear, you walk down this path, and then one day you're walking back to the village, sun setting, You're walking back to this path, and right behind a bush, a stick snaps.
你的注意力会集中在哪？
Where is your focus?
对。
Yeah.
就在
In the
就在灌木丛后面。
Right bush.
这时你不会想到你的孩子。
On It's not thinking about your kids.
你不会想到你的部落。
You're not thinking about your tribe.
除了那根树枝的声响，你什么都不会想。
You're not thinking about anything else except for that stick.
这就是新奇事物——那些新的、不寻常或出乎意料的东西——如何吸引动物大脑的全部注意力。
So that's where novelty, something that's new or unusual or unexpected, capitalizes focus on the animal brain.
然后我们还有权威性。
And then we have authority.
还是那个原始人。
Take that same guy.
灌木丛后折断树枝的其实只是只兔子之类的东西。
The stick snapping behind the bush was just a rabbit or something like that.
所以树枝断裂的声音不一定意味着威胁。
So the stick snapping doesn't have to be a threat.
它也可能具有潜在价值。
It's a potential value as well.
对吧？
Right?
如果你看到后面有只兔子，那就是食物。
So you see a rabbit back there, that's food.
但如果是CSA（指老虎）在后面，那也是个大事。
But if CSA, which is tiger back there, that's also a big deal.
这就是为什么我们进化出了默认的消极思维模式。
That's why we evolved to default to negative thought patterns.
因为对我们的祖先来说，那些把石头误认为熊的祖先更可能存活下来。
Because if you go to our ancestors, the ancestors that lived were more likely to mistake a rock for a bear.
而不是把熊误认为石头。
And not mistake a bear for a rock.
确实如此。
That's so true.
所以如果我处于某种心态下，比如说我有社交焦虑、自卑、缺乏自信。
So like if I'm in a certain mindset, let's say I have a social anxiety, poor, I'm lacking in confidence.
仅仅是走过杂货店时，一张中性的脸看起来都像是在评判我。
Just walking through a grocery store, a neutral face looks judgmental.
那张脸看起来充满怒气。
It looks angry.
那张脸看起来充满威胁。
It looks threatening.
所以我们的大脑会根据自身心态来解读这些表情。
So our brain will perceive it based on our mindset.
因此当你开始变得更加自信时，你会看到更多快乐的面孔。
So once you start becoming a lot more confident, you're going to see happier faces.
其实那些面孔完全没变。
It's the exact same face.
你会看到更多开放、热情和快乐的面孔。
You're going to see more faces that are open and welcoming and happy.
不是因为他们的表情变了，而是因为你的感知改变了。
Not because their faces change, but it's because your perception changed.
但如果我们默认消极，会感觉更安全。
But we get a lot safer if we default to negative.
如果我面前出现一个中性表情，而我本能地认为那可能有威胁，这种反应曾救过我的命。
If I see a neutral facial expression in front of me, if I just naturally default to, that's potentially threatening, that saved my life.
你知道前几天在我家发生了什么吗？
So you know what happened to me the other day at my house?
我一直在想这件事，之后我对自己非常生气。
I was thinking about it, and I was so pissed off at myself after it.
因为我完全清楚这种影响力和所有这些因素，但我们对被影响和说服的容易程度让我感到害怕。
Because I'm fully aware of this influence and all these things, and it scares me how easily we can be influenced and persuaded and you know.
是啊。
Yeah.
因为我住在公寓楼里，好吧，这可能是我事后逆向推理的，我当时就想，这他妈到底是怎么发生的？
And because I live in an apartment building, okay, so this is probably I reverse engineered it after, I'm like how the fuck did that happen?
我正坐在办公室里，通常如果有人来，你知道的，他们会按门铃。
I'm sitting in my office, usually if somebody comes up, you know, they ring the doorbell.
所以如果他们按对讲机，然后我过去，我这里有个摄像头，如果我想让你来我家，我会让你上来，否则我就会说，我很忙，比如放下包裹什么的，对吧？
So if they ring the intercom, and then I go over, here's I have a camera, and if I want you to ever come up to my house, I'll let you up, otherwise I'm like, I'm busy like dropping the parcel off or whatever, yeah?
我正坐在办公室里，突然听到有人敲门。
I'm sitting there in my office and I hear a knock on the door.
新鲜事。
Novelty.
我当时就想，不一样？
I'm like, different?
谁会敲我的门？
Who knocks on my door?
你得跟我同一层楼，懂我意思吧？
You have to be on my level, you know what I mean?
你得按门铃才能上来。
You have to buzz up to the level.
我就想，这真奇怪，好吧，可能是有重要的事。
So I'm like, that's weird, so okay, it's probably important.
我走出去开门，只见一个家伙，他对我说的第一句话是：嘿，我看见你过来了。
And I go out there, I open the door, and I just see a guy and the first thing he said to me was, Hey, I see you coming.
我需要检查一下后面的东西。
I need to check this thing out the back.
我说：行啊，进来吧。
I said, Yeah, come on.
他走进来，穿过房间去了后院，我坐回电脑前，满脑子问号：这他妈什么情况？
And he walked in, he walked in and he walked out the back and I sat back at my computer and I just go, What the fuck?
我心想：这人到底是谁啊？
I'm like Who is this guy actually?
这家伙是谁？
Who is this guy?
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
是啊。
Yeah.
然后我走出去看着他，心想：你在干嘛？
And then I walked back out and looked at him and I'm like What are you doing?
他就说：哦，我只是来检查这些灯之类的。
And he's like Oh I'll just go check these lights or blah blah blah.
他没穿制服，但能看出他不是随便穿穿的。
And he wasn't in a uniform, but you could see it was some type of he wasn't just like a casual.
介于两者之间。
Was some in between.
不是那种荧光工作服，就是卡其色的，可能是维修工之类的。
Wasn't high vis, nothing like that, but it was just like a khaki sort of you know like maybe maintenance or something.
对。
Yeah.
但事情就这么发生了。
But it played out.
大约有三十秒的时间，我完全愣住了。
It was about thirty seconds where I was completely.
他就这样直接进了我家。
He just got he just went into my home.
他连招呼都没打，也没自我介绍，什么都没有。
He didn't say hello, this is me, nothing.
他就敲了敲门。
He's knock knock knock.
嗯，我只是需要检查一下这个东西。
Yeah I just need check this thing.
嗯，当然可以进来。
Yeah sure come in.
我当时还觉得没什么大不了的。
And then I was just casual about it.
后来我真是气坏了。
I got so pissed off.
我简直不敢相信自己真的让一个陌生人进了家门。
I'm like I legit just met let some random dude into my house.
他没有解释，然后我就把事情拆解分析。
He didn't explain it, and then I broke it down.
就像，他之所以能这样完全是因为他可能带着某种官方身份。
Like, the reason he literally because he would have been some form of authority.
这对我来说很新奇，因为我想着‘好吧’。
It was new and novel for me because I'm like Yeah.
这次情况不一样。
This is different.
从来没人会敲门。
No one knocks on the door.
然后事情发展得特别快，因为
And then it was just super quick because
但他就在你那一层啊。
But he's on your floor.
他是你们部落的一员。
He was a member of your tribe.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
这么说就合理了。
Like, that makes sense.
好的。
Okay.
没错。
Yep.
专注、权威和情感部落。
Focus, authority, and tribe of emotion.
太对了。
That's so true.
他们甚至做过研究，光是拿着夹板就能让人更顺从。
And they've even done studies where just holding a slit board will make people more compliant.
哇。
Wow.
他们做了这个实验，YouTube上有个很棒的视频。
And they did this there's a great one on YouTube.
我希望你或你的视频编辑能在描述里放个链接。
And I hope you can put or your video editors can put a link in the in the description.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
但这是有个家伙假扮警察，在公共区域走来走去，要求人们违法。
But it's it's where this guy dresses up as a police officer and walks around this open public area and tells people to break the law.
他会说，你能乱扔垃圾吗？
He's like, can you litter?
你能从口袋里随便掏点东西扔出去吗？
Can you find something in your pocket and just throw it around?
然后他看到这个人拎着购物袋。
And he sees this person carrying a shopping bag.
他说，你能把包换到另一只手上吗？
He's like, can you switch that bag to your other hand?
就把它放到他们另一只手上。
Just put it in their other hand.
我需要取样你在杂货店买的玉米，然后他咬了一口别人的玉米。
I need to sample that corn that you've got in the grocery store and he takes a bite of somebody's corn.
有趣的是，一旦我们感知到权威，大脑中的这个过滤器——我在培训中称之为‘保安’。
It's fascinating just how once we perceive authority, this filter in our brain I call the security guard in my training.
我们的大脑有两样东西，一个保安和一个档案管理员。
Our brain has two things, a security guard and a file clerk.
其中一个负责获取记忆。
So one of them goes and gets memory.
比如说过山车，你的大脑会立刻调取你过去关于过山车的10个画面，YouTube视频，等等。
So if say roller coaster, your brain just pulled up 10 images of roller coasters from your past, YouTube videos, whatever.
但在权威面前，保安会休息。
But the security guard in the presence of authority takes a break.
就像他说的，保安人员坐在那里思考：我该让这条信息进来吗？
So like he's saying like security are sitting there like, should I let this information in?
让我对进来的信息保持高度警惕。
Let me be very cautious about what's coming in and all this.
然后保安人员会说：哦，这里有权威人士在场。
And the security guard is like, oh, there's authority here.
不需要不需要不需要在这里。
Don't don't don't need to be here.
你认识达伦·布朗吗？
Have you seen are you familiar with Darren Brown?
哦，认识。
Oh, yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我记得很久前就开始看他的节目了，你看过他做的Push实验吗？
I think I started watching his stuff a long time ago, it's the have you seen him do the Push experiment?
他做了同样的事。
He did the same thing.
实际上是在Netflix上播出的。
It was on Netflix actually.
在大约一小时内，他本可以做到但实际上他并没有亲自实施。
In the space of about an hour, could he and he didn't even do it.
他通过某人耳中的耳机，全程利用权威与服从心理。
He had an earpiece in someone's ear, and it was all through authority and compliance.
在一小时内，他们让——我这里编个数字——但大多数人，约70%的人产生了杀人倾向。
And within an hour they got, I'm making a number up here, but it was the majority, maybe seventy percent of people to kill someone.
是的。
Yeah.
通过同侪压力、群体认同、权威影响以及微小的顺从行为。
Through peer pressure, tribe, the authority and just micro compliance.
嘿，做这个。
Hey, do this.
他们展示的是，如果一开始能让某人在道德上做点小错事，他就会继续下去。
And what they were showing was, if he could get someone to do something morally a little bit wrong in the beginning, he would keep on it.
所以一开始他说，好吧，我们正在准备这顿晚餐。
So it started with he's like, okay, we're getting ready for this dinner.
这些是素食选项。
These ones are the vegan options.
这些是肉食选项。
These are the meat ones.
他说，哦我们的素食已经用完了。
He's like, oh we've run out of vegan.
就放个肉食在那里吧。
Just put a meat one there.
他说，别担心。
He's like, don't worry.
是。
Is.
哦，但这是素食的。
Oh but it's vegan.
他说，别担心。
He's like, don't worry.
就放一个，就放一个肉菜在那里。
Just put one just put one meat one there.
他得手了。
And he got to do it.
他们发现，每一个走到最后的人，都是从这样的小事开始的。
And what they noticed is every single person that went all the way, is they were started to do little things like this.
然后事情就一件接一件。
And then it was just one more thing, another thing.
后来有人死了，他还帮忙搬运假尸体。
And then someone died, and he helped him move the fake body.
你有
Have you
看过这个吗？
seen this thing?
看过。
Yeah.
简直太疯狂了。
It's freaking insane.
难以置信。
Unbelievable.
然后他们就这样一路顺从到底，我就想这就是他说的同伴压力让我朋友们干蠢事的方式。
And then they get all the way to the end through nothing but compliance, and I'm like that's how he said peer pressure my friends to do stupid shit.
就是同伴压力。
Just peer pressure.
是啊。
Yeah.
但这就是人类大脑让我害怕的地方——我们很容易说出或做出一些事，如果有人比我们更懂得如何操控我们的大脑的话。
But they it's it's this is what scares me about the human brain that we could very easily say or do something that probably we wouldn't do if someone really knows how to use our head better than we know how.
是啊。
Yeah.
如果你想想达伦·布朗的实验，对参与者来说整个过程中什么是全新的？
And if you think about the Darren Brown thing, what was new to that person throughout the experiment?
一切都是全新的。
Everything was brand new.
新奇感产生了巨大的专注力，而专注正是通往权威、群体和情感的大门。
Novelty that generated a tremendous amount of focus and focus is that doorway to the authority, tribe and emotion.
所以一旦它是新奇的，就完全是全新的。
So once it's novel, it's brand new.
如果你想想米尔格拉姆实验，他们在一栋从未去过的建筑里，做一个从未做过的实验，面对一个素未谋面的人，如此种种。
If you think of the Milgram experiment, they're in a building they've never been in, doing an experiment they've never done with a guy they've never met, and on and on and on and on.
他们可以沉浸在这种新奇感中。
They could go into the novelty of it.
而这正是米尔格拉姆实验中他们完全忽略的一点。
And that's one of the things that they completely ignored in the Milgram experiment.
他们说这完全关乎权威。
They said it's all about authority.
其实这完全关乎专注力和氛围，因为其他人也这么做，而迄今为止我也是这样做的。
Well, it was all about focus and vibe because other people do this and I've done it so far.
而且这和达伦·布朗的做法如出一辙，都是循序渐进。
And it was little by little the same way Darren Brown did it.
每次只要求一点点服从。
Little compliance at a time.
邪教组织就是这样进行洗脑的。
And that's how cults do indoctrinations.
我在审讯中获取供词也是同样的方法，就是逐步升级的服从性控制。
That's how I get confessions in an interrogation, is that leveled up compliance over time.
所以你在黑莓公司工作了二十年。
So you spent twenty years as a BlackBerry.
你作为海军舰长执行过疯狂机密任务，那些事甚至都不能谈论。
You're a captain on a Navy ship doing crazy secret stuff that you can't even talk about.
你可以随时让我闭嘴。
And you can tell me to shut up at any point.
你所掌握的这些技能，你是如何运用的？
How the things you do know how did you use them?
在你的职业生涯中，有没有什么可以解释或谈论的，关于你如何利用这些技巧进行审讯、获取信息或说服他人的经历？
And is there anything that you can explain or can talk about through your times in your professional career on how you've leveraged these things to interrogate or get information or persuade or?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为我所教授的内容都围绕三件事展开。
I think the things that I teach are all about three things.
如果你观察任何成功人士，他们都精通这三件事。
So if you look at anyone who's successful, they've mastered these three things.
你看那些失败的人，他们都是在其中一件事上栽了跟头。
You look at anyone who's failed, they failed at one of these three things.
不管人工智能如何发展都无关紧要。
Doesn't matter how much AI comes out.
所有人都在谈论经济下滑。
Everybody's talking about the economy going down.
人工智能将接管世界。
AI is going to take over the world.
成功人士都有这三个共同点。
The people who are successful have these three things in common.
那就是观察力，意味着我能读懂房间氛围，能读懂交谈对象。
And that's observation, which means I can read the room, can read somebody that I'm talking to.
沟通能力，他们懂得如何交流、说服和影响他人。
Communication, they know how to communicate and persuade and influence people.
他们擅长运用语言。
They know how to use language well.
然后是自我掌控力。
And then self mastery.
就这三样东西，仅此而已。
Those three things, that's it.
所以如果你观察成功人士，就会发现他们都有这三个共同点。
So if you just look at successful people, those are the three things they all have in common.
因此我们就是基于这三点来训练情报人员的。
So those are the three things that we brought forward to train intelligence operatives.
我能更快地从一个人身上获取信息吗？
Can I get information faster out of a person?
你指的是让某人偏离正轨。
You're talking about getting someone in deviate.
我们当时教授的内容
The stuff that we were teaching.
而我开发的课程全都植根于一个问题：情报官员如何在最短时间内说服外国公民背叛自己的祖国
And the programs that I was developing is all kind of rooted in how can an intelligence officer talk a foreign national into committing treason against their own country in the shortest amount of time.
比如我在酒吧认识某人，能否在一个半小时内让他们同意为我冒死刑的风险
So I meet someone at a bar, and then within an hour and a half, can I get them to agree to potentially face the death penalty for me?
这就是我们当时面临的难题
And so that was the problem that we had.
这就像在一个二维图表上。
It's like on a two axis chart.
这边是他们行为的偏离程度，这边是时间。
So here's like the deviation from their normal behavior and here's the time.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以我正在为你倒推这个过程。
So I'm doing this backwards for you.
还有你。
And you.
我能让他们偏离正常行为多远？
How far can I get them to deviate from what they would normally do?
这需要我花多长时间？
And how long does it take me?
我需要的是零时间高偏离。
And I need it to be no time high deviation.
是的。
Yeah.
大多数人会说，哦，是的，如果我把人囚禁起来，剥夺睡眠等等，我就能让人去做那些事。
So most people like, oh yeah, I I can can talk to somebody to do that if I had them captive locked up days and I can sleep deprivation and all that.
但我们没有那种条件。
Well, we don't have that luxury.
这一切始于我的朋友在也门科尔号驱逐舰恐怖袭击中遇难，他是我最好的朋友之一。
So this started when my friend died in the terrorist attack on the USS Cole in Yemen, And he was one of my best friends.
然后各种报告开始出现。
And all these reports came out.
如果你有军方的高级机密或机密许可，你会收到这些关于全球政治动态的单页简报。
And if you have a top secret or secret clearance in the military, you get these little one page news reports about the global politics and stuff.
它被称为'早鸟简报'。
And it's called the Early Bird.
当时我正在阅读早鸟简报，看到了所有这些情报失误：特工无法与地面人员取得联系，我们没能获得有效情报，也没有建立良好关系。
So I'm reading The Early Bird, I saw all of these things, intelligence failures, operatives couldn't connect with people on the ground, we didn't get good intelligence, didn't have good relationships established.
于是我想，好吧，我要用我所学的知识来改进所有这些项目，而令人不安的是，当时情报人员的培训内容就像是《如何赢得朋友及影响他人》那本书的内容。
So I thought, well, I'm gonna use what I've been learning to enhance all of these programs, and scary enough, the training that intelligence operators had at that time was like how to win friends and influence people.
就这样，没了。
That's it, period.
用他们的名字。
Use their name.
对，就是那些：有力的握手、眼神交流、称呼对方名字、拍拍肩膀、感谢光临，就这些。
Yeah, it was like, firm handshake, make eye contact, use their name, touch them on the shoulder, thanks for coming, that's everything.
这就是他们掌握的全部技巧。
So that's what they had.
所以情报机构只能依赖那些天生具有魅力和高度自信的人，单纯把他们推到高位，因为他们没有其他技术手段来增强这些能力。
So the intelligence agencies were relying on making people that were charismatic and highly confident, and just pushing them to the top because they didn't have the techniques to add on to that.
这太复杂了。
This is convoluted.
是啊，是啊。
Yeah, yeah.
但这是不是就像我们讨论的所有事情一样，想想就觉得特别有趣，因为就像你在电影里看到听到的那些东西，你懂的。
But is it the whole like like I'm everything we talk about it's just it's just so interesting to think about, because like stuff you hear about you see in movies, know.
就像我和安迪·布斯塔曼特坐下来聊天时一样，无论是在镜头前还是镜头外，都是同样的东西。
And the same as like when I sat down with Andy Bustamante, I'm like it's the same stuff like on and off camera.
我就想，这也太疯狂了，你们简直就像汤姆·古鲁斯。
I'm like, this is crazy, like you're literally like Tom Gurus.
有没有过在执行任务或行动时，你真正感到生命受到威胁的时刻？
Has there been times when you've been on missions or operations where you've genuinely feared for your life?
不是理论上的那种可能出错，而是实际上我们现在就完蛋了？
And not in a theoretical thing like this could go wrong, but in actual we're fucked right now?
很多很多次。
Many many times.
我第一次遇到这种情况时，才19岁，在索马里海岸附近。
And the my first time that ever happened, I was 19 years old, off the coast of Somalia.
我想我只能说这么多了。
I think that's all I can say.
但当时，我们不得不将一艘难民船移交给索马里政府。
But it was, we had to turn over a boat of refugees to the Somali government.
那里根本没有索马里政府。就是一艘生锈的拖船上载着些16岁的孩子，情况很快就恶化了。
There is no Somali So it's like these 16 year olds in a rusted out tugboat, and that turned bad really fast.
那一刻你会意识到——虽然我不能代表其他军人发言——但我想你会到达这样一个临界点：每一天都可能是最后一天。
And that was the moment where you kind of get, I can't speak for anybody else in the military, but I think you get to this point where you're like, any day might be maybe the last day.
后来我逐渐接受了这点，觉得这就是工作的一部分。
And I kinda got okay with it, where it was just like, that's just part of doing this.
这就是这份职业的特性。
It was part of just this line of work.
我们多次陷入那种境地——如果不采取极端措施，所有人都会死。
And many times we've been in that kind of situation where if we don't do something drastic or any, we're all dead.
难道人们知道你们是美国部队后，不会更害怕攻击你们吗？
Wouldn't would people not be more fearful to try to attack you guys knowing you're US?
如果真发生袭击，难道不会引发彻底的混乱吗？
Like, if if an attack happened, wouldn't it just be bring absolute fucking chaos to the?
我认为在执行情报行动时
I think when you're working intelligence operations
你并不是在公开宣称，嘿
You're not really saying, hey.
是的
Yeah.
我们称之为非旗帜行动
We call it it's a it's a non flagged operation.
所以他们知道这是某个国家行为，或者知道是北约成员，但不确定具体可能是我们
So they know it's a nation state, or they know that it's somebody from NATO, but they don't know specifically that it might be us.
就像我们进行海军情报工作，尤其在我这一行，很多时候就是保持低调——可能悄悄抓个人、搜查些什么，或者举着天线让弗吉尼亚兰利市某个22岁的MIT毕业生远程指导我调整天线方向之类的
This is like our if we're doing naval intelligence, especially in my line of work, a lot of it is just I'm being very quiet, either maybe grabbing somebody, searching something, or I'm holding up an antenna and letting some 22 year old MIT graduate in Langley, Virginia, like tell me how to turn the antenna and stuff like that.
所以原则始终是：我们不该被人发现
So it's always like, I we should not be seen.
就像，我们第二天就该被遗忘
Like, we should be forgotten the next day.
但说到陆军部队，比如游骑兵、绿色贝雷帽那些家伙，在我看来他们执行的任务危险得多。
But when it comes to, like, the army dudes, like rangers, great berets, those dudes are out there running operations that are far more dangerous in my opinion.
他们就像是在公寓楼里直接开火，肩章上的标志清晰可见，立刻就能辨认出身份。
That are like, they're like laying it down, like in apartment buildings, the flags right on the shoulder, they identify themselves immediately.
所以这是完全不同的领域，就像执行纯陆军特种作战级别的任务。
So it's a whole different gamut, like a dude that's running pure spec ops army level.
是的。
Yes.
你是怎么保持冷静的？
How do you how do you stay calm?
我想象如果处在那种情况下，甚至...我觉得每个人都经历过让人有点紧张的局面，不管是第一次销售、约会女生、不得不解雇某人，或者...就我个人而言，有时进行艰难对话时，我和安德鲁聊过这个，我会压低声音说话，更难...我注意到整个身体开始，就像你说的，紧绷起来。
Like I imagine if I'm in a situation like that, or even as and like I think everyone can relate to being in a situation where it's like this is a little bit nervous, whether it be their first sale, seeing a girl out on a date, having to fire someone or you know this like I know for one, like if I have hard conversations sometimes, I was talking about this with Andrew, I'm like I'll talk down here and it's harder to I'm like I noticed my whole whole body starts to, as you say, compose.
对吧？
Right?
紧绷？
Compose?
崩溃？
Collapse?
崩溃。
Collapse.
我注意到它开始这样了。
I notice it starts to do this.
那么当你在那种情况下，比如我知道如果我现在被抓或者有人发现我在做什么或者事情败露了，你是怎么保持冷静的？
So how how do you stay calm in situations when you're like, I know I can be if I got caught right now or someone, you know, found out what I was doing or it's gone?
你是怎么保持淡定的？
How do you how do you stay chill?
这个问题有两个答案。
There's two two answers to that.
我只是在给你我的个人看法。
And I'm just giving you my opinion.
别人可能会给你不同的答案。
Somebody else may give you something else.
但我们经历了非常严酷、近乎疯狂的特训。
But we go through some serious, crazy training.
那是你能想象到压力最大的事情。
And it's the most stressful thing you can imagine.
大部分内容需要保密，不过结束后我会给你看一段我受训时的视频。
Most of it's a little hush-hush, but I'll show you a video after we're done of me going through that.
好。
Okay.
第二部分是训练中深深植入你心理的所谓战斗意识。
The second part is you learn that's drilled into your psyche this thing called combat mindset.
战斗意识就是进攻性思维。
And the combat mindset is offensive aggression.
这不是要变得暴力，，而是主动选择暴力并比对手更擅长暴力，这样当...
And it's not being violent, but choosing violence and being better at violence than the other person so that if.
如果我感觉有人即将发现我们，我会因为他们逼我动手而愤怒。
If I feel like someone is about to spot us, I'm angry at them for making me kill them.
这就是思维模式的巨大转变——他们教授的这种心态毫无防御性，一旦威胁出现，我就会立即产生攻击性。
So that's the huge shift in mindset is there's nothing defensive about this mindset that they teach to where as soon as a threat comes in, I have aggression.
根本不存在‘我会死吗？’这种想法。
There's nothing like, am I going to die?
所以一方面是在想‘我会受伤吗？’
And so on one side it's like, am I going to get hurt?
另一方面则是在思考‘我是否愿意摧毁这个人类？’
And on the other side is, am I willing to destroy this human being?
所以这是个是非题。
So it's a yes or no.
如果答案是肯定的，那么暴力和攻击性就会被激活。
And if it's yes, then violence and aggression get turned on.
而且我确信自己在暴力方面更胜一筹。
And I know for a fact I'm better at violence.
我可能不是更暴力的人，但我比对方更擅长实施暴力。
I may not be more violent, but I'm better at violence than that other person is.
所以这是一种关于自信和训练的信心问题。
So it's a confidence thing of confidence and training.
我认为是的，你所经历的训练是难以置信的，尤其是当你进入那种工作领域时。
I think it is, and the training that you go through is unbelievable, especially you get into that kind of line of work.
所以我曾是一名远征作战人员。
So I was an expeditionary warfare and.
那基本上就是快速行动类的任务。
That is just kind of expedited rapid operation kind of stuff.
他们会让你参加一些令人惊叹的枪战学校训练。
And they put you through some amazing gunfighting schools.
其中一所就在从这里往北大约三十分钟的地方，我在那里参加过枪战学校训练。
One of them is like thirty minutes north of here where I went through gunfighting school.
那是离这里很近的一个陆军基地。
It's a army base that's real close to here.
那么我们来谈谈如何识别说谎者。
So let's talk about spotting liars.
那么让我们从零开始，就当没人知道一样。
So let's start from ground zero as if no one even knows.
尽管我觉得，当你...你总是有种感觉，觉得那个人在撒谎。
Even though I think when like you're you're you always have a sense of being like that person's lying.
我认为大多数未经训练的人并不知道他们是怎么知道的。
I And think most people who are uneducated this don't know how they know that.
是啊。
Yeah.
但大家都有这种感觉对吧？
But everyone has a feeling right?
他们觉得那个人有点不对劲，显然你已经对他们进行了心理分析，过去十年左右你一直在整合这些信息。
They're like there's something off about that person and you've obviously psychoanalyzed them, you've put together this thing over the last ten or so years.
那么我们要寻找哪些迹象来识别撒谎的人呢？
So what are some things we look for to spot people who are lying?
确实有一些广为人知的指标，我可以给你列举几个。
So there are some indicators that are pretty well known, and I'll give you a couple of those.
但我认为我人生中犯的最大错误，就是花了十年时间学习所有这些指标。
But I think it's The biggest mistake I ever made in my life was spending a ten years learning all of those indicators.
我为此构建了一个周期表。
I built a periodic table of this stuff.
你见过的那个。
What you've seen.
我见过。
I've seen it.
所以说到这些指标，它们很重要。
So when it comes to these indicators, those are important.
真正重要的是要善于察觉变化。
What's really important is being good at detecting change.
对话开始时很正常。
So the conversation starts normally.
你来自哪里？
Where are you from?
你对什么感兴趣？
What are you into?
我正在获取这个人的一些基本信息。
Some basic information I'm getting out of this person.
然后我们会进入更难的问题，我在观察他们行为的变化。
And then we get to the harder questions and I'm looking for changes to their behavior.
他们回答问题的方式是否和几分钟前一致？
Are they answering questions the same way that they were a few minutes ago?
他们的眼球运动方式是否相同？
Are their eyes moving the same way?
他们的手指动作是否保持一致？
Are their fingers doing the same thing?
他们的呼吸节奏是否相同？
Are they breathing at the same speed?
因此，寻找变化比知道要观察哪些行为更重要。
So looking for changes is more important than knowing what behaviors to look for.
所以如果我看到一大堆变化，几乎可以确定这个人是在欺骗，甚至无需真正理解我所观察到的。
So if I see a big pile of changes, I can be almost certain that this person is being deceptive without even knowing what I'm really seeing.
因此，擅长捕捉变化是首要且最重要的事情。
So getting good at changes is the first and most important thing.
然后要理解上下文和行为集群。
Then understanding context and clusters.
上下文的意思是，比如这个人双臂交叉。
So context meaning like, well, this person is crossing their arms.
他们一定是在防御。
They must be defensive.
但如果外面气温只有50华氏度呢？他们可能只是冻坏了。
Well, what if it's 50 degrees outside and they're freezing cold?
所以这其中还涉及到上下文的影响。
So there's context that that plays in.
然后要理解上下文，再是行为集群。
Then understanding context and then clusters.
我不会仅凭单一行为就判断某人说谎，比如他们说‘哦，有人挠了鼻子’或‘他们摸了下脸’就认定在撒谎，或者因为对方视线移开了一会儿。
I'm going to look for not just one behavior when somebody says, oh, somebody scratched their nose or they touched their face, they're lying or they looked away for a minute.
他们在撒谎。
They're lying.
单一行为本身永远不能单独作为欺骗的指标。
One behavior never indicates deception by itself.
永远不应该这样。
It never should.
你应该总是观察一系列行为，有时候即使有人说谎，那些行为特征也可能不出现。
You should always see a cluster of behavior and sometimes someone's lying and those behaviors aren't there.
就是没有那些迹象。
They're just not there.
这就涉及到利害关系了。
And that goes into stakes.
你是否有能力通过提问来提升对话的利害关系？
Are you good enough to ask questions to raise the stakes?
所以如果我给你一张鸭子的照片，然后告诉你，说服这边这个人你看到的是一匹马的照片，你不会表现出很多欺骗的迹象。
So if I give you a picture of a duck right now and tell you, convince this person over here that you are looking at a picture of a horse, You're not going to show a lot of deception indicators.
但如果我做完全相同的事，我可以说，如果你不这么做，我就一枪崩了你？
But if I do the exact same thing, can I say, if you don't do this, I'm going to put a bullet in your head?
你在撒同样的谎，完全相同的情境。
You're doing the exact same lie, the exact same situation.
现在赌注更高了，所以你的欺骗迹象会增加。
Now the stakes are higher so that your deception indicators are increased.
所以我们提高赌注的方式之一，可能就像我简单地说：摩根，我喜欢你这个人。
So like one of the ways that we might increase stakes is something as simple as me saying, Morgan, I like you as a person.
我不想让你出错，所以希望你在回答这个问题前仔细思考。
And I don't want you to get tripped up, so I want you to think very carefully before you answer this question.
明白吗？
You understand?
所以现在赌注提高了，我只是用一小段话就放大了你的肢体语言。
So now the stakes go up, so I've I've just pumped up your body language with just a little paragraph.
是的，这样一来我会对任何欺骗性模式更加敏感。
Yeah, so then it's going to make it me more sensitive to any sort of deceptive patterns.
完全正确。
So absolutely.
让你的大脑紧张起来。
Up your brain.
没错，在问题提出之前就这样做。
Yeah, before the question comes so that.
如果你是清白的，你的大脑就不会紧张起来。
And if you're innocent, your brain's not going to get ramped up.
是的，如果发生了谋杀案而你知道自己不是凶手，你就会觉得'好吧，随便问'。
Yeah, so if a murder took place and you know you're not the killer, you're going to be like, yeah, okay, fine.
那个问题不会给你带来任何压力。
That question won't cause you any stress.
就像我们讨论识别欺骗时提到的其他问题一样。
Just it's just like this other question we're talking about detecting deception.
这不仅仅是行为的问题。
It's not just about behavior.
关键在于你是否能提出好问题？
It's about can you ask good questions?
世界上最好的问题之一叫做诱饵问题。
And one of the best questions in the world is called a bait question.
比如说发生了一起犯罪，假设杂货店被偷了1万美元，我把你作为嫌疑人带到这里。
And this is where, let's say a crime happened, let's say some $10,000 was stolen from a grocery store or something, and I've got you in here as a suspect.
假设就是你干的。
And you did it, let's say you did it.
我可能会说，莫琳，你能想到有什么理由会有一段黑白摄像机——可能是监控摄像头——拍到你拿钱的视频出现吗？
And I might say, Maureen, is there any reason that you can think of that a video would have showed up from a black and white camera, maybe a security camera that showed that you took some money.
如果你知道根本没有摄像头，你会很轻松地说没有，对吧？
And if you knew there were no video cameras, you'd say, no, you'd be comfortable, right?
然后我会把问题变得更模糊，说：莫里，你能想到有什么理由会让别人说他们看到了你的车吗？
So then I make it more vague and I say, Maury, is there any reason that somebody would've say that they saw your car.
那晚停在商店外面。
Parked outside that store that evening.
那你不知道我已经和多少人谈过了。
Then you don't know how many people I've talked to.
只有当你真的在场时，你才会紧张起来。
And the only time that you will get nervous is if you were there.
确实。
True.
你知道如果你决定撒谎，而我又即将用证据当面揭穿你，你无法预知我何时会这么做。
And you know that if you're gonna commit to lying and I'm about to slam you in the face with evidence, you don't know if I'm about to do that.
这就是为什么这种诱饵问题如此重要。
That's why that bait question is so important.
这对孩子也管用。
It works with kids.
第二种提出诱饵问题的方式是：'是否有任何理由可能导致某某事情发生？'
And the second way to do the the way to do the bait question is, is there any reason blah blah blah might have happened?
所以你从不引导他们。
So you never are leading them.
你绝不说'我有这个证据'之类的话。
You're not saying I have this evidence ever.
这就像个假设性问题。
It's like a hypothetical.
有没有可能有人告诉警官或我们的调查员，说看到你把车停在那栋房子外面，或是大约晚上9点15分看到你？
Is there any reason somebody would have told officers or one of our investigators that they saw you parked outside of that house, or they saw you at around 09:15PM?
所以问题越模糊越好。
And so the more vague, the better it is.
那你会怎么运用这个技巧？
So how would you use that?
你刚才提到用在孩子身上。
You said with kids.
如果是完全不同的场景，比如日常生活中对待自己的孩子，你会怎么运用这个方法？
How would you use that with, say, your children in a completely different context, in like an everyday life?
好啊，说个谎给我听听。
Yeah, give me a lie.
我有个简单的问题要问你。
I'll tell you a quick question.
嗯，你有孩子，孩子们会说哪些谎话？
Well, you have kids, what lies do kids say?
嗯，我小时候经常对父母说些让他们心惊肉跳的话。
Well, things that I used to say was, I gave my parents heart attacks when we were growing up.
很多次警察都找上门来。
Many times the police came to the door.
我不知道。
I don't know.
反正永远都是'不是我干的'。
It was just always that it wasn't me.
我没做过。
I didn't do it.
我不在那里。
I wasn't there.
是啊。
Yeah.
那么有个问题，有没有什么原因会让人看到你，或者有什么理由让人认为你可能在那里？
So one thing, is there any reason somebody would have seen you or is there any reason someone would say that you might be there?
这对孩子们来说很棒。
It's great for kids.
最适合孩子们的问题叫做惩罚问题。
The best one for kids is called the punishment question.
就是：你认为应该怎么处理做这件事的人？
And this is, what do you think should happen to the person that did this?
这个方法在我生活中曾被用来与捕食者交谈。
And so this has been used, in my life, talking to predators.
这些人就是以儿童为猎物的。
And these are people that prey on children.
我会说，那么，你认为应该怎么处理做这件事的人？
And I would say, well, what do you think should happen to the person that did this?
答案总是类似：他们当然应该向家人道歉。
And the answer is always something like, well, definitely they should apologize to the family.
他们需要某种心理辅导。
They need some kind of counseling.
就像非常轻的惩罚。
Something like really low.
是啊，太可笑了。
Yeah, ridiculous.
他们会说，显然那个人有病，需要帮助，需要某种心理咨询和治疗。
They'll say things like, well, obviously that person's sick and they need help and they need some kind of counseling and therapy.
对我的孩子们，我之前用过这个方法。
At on my kids, I used this before.
所以我在军队服役时，有一天穿着迷彩制服回家，看到一小盒巧克力牛奶。
So when I was in the military, I come home in my uniform one day, like the little camo uniform, walking in, and there's a little box of chocolate milk.
对吧？
Right?
盒子打开了，就那样侧放着。
It's opened, and it's just laying on its side.
巧克力牛奶洒得到处都是，我们居然铺了张白地毯，真是蠢透了。
All this chocolate milk is just we had a white rug like an idiot.
是孩子们干的。
It was kids.
我的两个孩子，夏洛特和威廉，当时就在那儿。
And my two kids, Charlotte and William, are in there.
他们大概五六岁的样子。
They're probably five and six, somewhere around there.
我就问：谁把牛奶拿到客厅来的？
And I was like, who brought this milk here in the living room?
这里只能喝水，不准喝牛奶。
You're not supposed to have milk in here, just water.
他们说，不知道，不清楚。
And they're like, no, don't know.
我看着我儿子，我也不知道。
I look at my son, and I don't know.
我说，好吧。
I'm like, alright.
夏洛特在客厅，威廉在厨房。
Charlotte living room, William kitchen.
分开的。
Separate.
对。
Yeah.
我去找夏洛特，结果没有。
I went to Charlotte and I no.
我先去找了威廉。
I went to William first.
不。
No.
我先去找了夏洛特。
I went to Charlotte first.
我说，夏洛特，我应该怎么处理那个把牛奶洒在地板上的人？
I said, Charlotte, what what should I been the person that spilled this milk on the floor?
她说，打屁股、不准玩Xbox、没收电子设备、不准出门、不准和朋友玩、关禁闭。
She said, spankings, no more Xbox, no electronics, can't go outside, can't play with friends, grounded.
我就说，好吧，行。
I'm like, okay, alright.
然后我
And I
走到威廉那边问他，威廉，你觉得该怎么处理那个把巧克力牛奶洒在地板上的人？
go over to William and I say, William, what should happen to the person that spilled the chocolate milk on the floor?
他说，以后不准在客厅喝巧克力牛奶？
And he goes, no more chocolate milk in the living room?
有趣的是，孩子们会这样，但成年人面对同样的问题时反应也一样。
So and what's funny is like, it's funny that kids do this, but adults react to the same way to that question.
因为情绪化，对吧？
Because emotional, right?
我试着在脑海中想象，我在想，会发生什么呢？
There'd be I imagine some try to play it in my head, I'm like, what would be happening?
因为如果是我做的，我脑海中会有画面浮现。
Because if I did it, I have images of it happening.
就像，我在视觉上，正在脑海中演绎这件事。
Like, so I'm visually, I'm playing it out of my head.
如果我专注于此，我就会感受到它。
And if I'm focusing on it, I'm gonna feel it.
现在如果你提高赌注，比如问，应该发生什么？
And now if you're raising the stakes, being like, should happen?
现在我正在想象，如果我被抓到，这就是我的惩罚，这让我抓狂。
Now I'm visualizing, if I get caught, it's my punishment, it's gonna make me I'm freaking out.
是啊，我在想，如果他们真的按他们说的去做会怎样？
Yeah, I'm like, oh, well, what if they do what they say that they're gonna do?
如果他们按我说的去做会怎样？
What if they do what I say?
所以这就是诱饵问题和惩罚问题。
And so that's the bait question and the punishment question.
这些真的很棒。
Those are really good.
这太厉害了。
That's killer.
而真正触及真相的时刻，就是当我们深入探究如何让他们招供的方法时。
And really getting to the truth is when we get down into the ways to get a confession out of them.
是的。
Yes.
所以我们一直怀疑人们在对我们撒谎。
So we've suspected that people are lying to us.
我们已经掌握了一些线索。
We've got a few things we've seen.
我们提出了一些问题，提高了筹码，而且正在观察情况。
We've asked some questions, we've raised the stakes and we're seeing it.
但在他们招供之前，这些都毫无意义。
But it still doesn't mean anything until they confess.
我甚至听说你保持着最快招供记录之类的？我发誓？
I've even heard don't you have like a record for the fastest confession or something I swear?
也许吧。
Maybe.
就像你在《不可能的任务》里做的那样。
Something like that you do in Impossible.
大概二十多分钟就搞定了。
You do in like twenty something minutes or something.
可能我记错了。
I could be wrong.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
那我们现在要怎么让人招供呢？
So how do we get confessions out of people now?
怎么了，梦想国度？
What's up, Dream Nation?
你有没有想过，如果年轻时没接触过这类内容，你的人生现在会领先多少？
Have you ever wondered how far ahead your life would have already been if you hadn't got access to this type of content at a younger age?
听着，这就是我需要你们帮助的原因。
Look, this is why I need your help.
我正在打造顶尖的个人成长平台，教你们实现梦想生活所需的技巧、窍门和态度，提供我们都希望在学校能获得的那种教育。
I'm trying to build the number one personal development platform out there to teach you guys the tips, tricks, and attitude of what it takes to live your dream life and to bring the type of education that we all wish we had in school.
这个节目仅靠口碑传播和新订阅者成长，所以如果你能立即点击订阅、留下五星好评、在下方留言或分享本期给朋友，对我意义重大。
This show only grows by word-of-mouth and new subscribers, so it would mean the world to me if you could smash that subscribe button right now, leave us a five star written review, or drop a comment below, and share this episode with a friend.
我将永远感激不尽。
I would be forever grateful.
好的。
Alright.
现在让我们回到这期节目。
Now let's get back into this episode.
当你与人交谈想获取敏感信息时，问的问题越少越好。
Well, if you're ever talking to somebody and you want sensitive information, the less questions you ask, the better.
所以我猜你的大部分听众都不是审讯专家。
So I'm assuming that most of your listeners are not interrogators.
他们正在进行日常对话。
So they're in conversations.
创业者们。
Entrepreneurs.
没错。
Yeah.
所以我们时刻都在交谈中。
So we're in conversations all the time.
假设我给你一个挑战，我说你的挑战是这样的，想象我们站在一家杂货店里。
So let's say I give you a challenge, and I say your challenge well, say we're standing in a grocery store.
我们在农产品区。
We're in the produce section.
然后我说，莫琳，这是你的挑战。
And I say, Maureen, here's your challenge.
你需要走到那边那位女店员那里。
You need to go over to this woman over there who's an employee at the store.
在六十秒内，你需要弄清楚她的收入是多少。
Within sixty seconds, you need to find out how much she makes for a living.
而且你不能直接提问。
And you're not allowed to ask any questions.
你有六十秒时间。
You have sixty seconds.
这很难做到，对吧？
That's going to be tough, right?
使用陈述句能让人们透露信息的可能性提高10倍。
So using statements makes people like 10x more likely to reveal information.
这是在一本叫《商业机密》的书里提到的，我记得应该是这个书名。
And this is in a book called Business Confidential, and I think that's what it was.
作者名叫约翰，我记不清他的姓氏了。
The guy's name is John, I can't remember his last name.
但他可以说是这方面的开山鼻祖。
But he's kind of the grandfather of all of this.
但想象一下，我走向那个正在超市里整理货物的人，然后说：你知道吗？
But if you imagine, I walked over to that person who's stocking his stuff in the grocery store and I said, You know what?
你能帮我找一下小胡萝卜或橙子之类的东西吗？
Can you help me find the baby carrots or oranges or whatever?
当我们一起走过去时，已经过了15秒，所以我的时间不多了。
And as we're walking together, fifteen seconds have elapsed, so now my time is running out.
我说，你知道吗？
And I say, You know what?
我刚读到一篇文章，说你们时薪涨到了25美元。
I just read this article that you guys bumped up to $25 an hour.
这太棒了。
That's fantastic.
恭喜啊。
Congratulations.
然后他们一脸疑惑地看着我。
And they look at me like what?
我们时薪只有16美元。
We only make $16 an hour.
这个部门的所有人都是这个工资。
Everybody does who works in this department.
所以我成功让她纠正了我。
So I got her to correct me.
所以使用陈述句是实现这一点的件非常有效的方式。
So using statements is a really effective way to do this.
，我在我的书和其他材料中经常写到这一点。
I write about it a lot in my books and stuff.
，陈述句大约有17种类型。
There's like 17 types of statements.
，而这种叫做触发纠正记录的需求。
And this one is called triggering a need to correct the record.
，人们的反应会非常强烈。
And people respond heavily to that.
，那么从提升赌注的角度来看，还有什么其他方法呢？
What would be another in terms of like, let's raise the stakes a little bit.
，介于了解超市女员工的时薪和你与人们打交道，或曾经与人们打交道的方式之间。
Somewhere between getting the grocery store ladies hourly rate and what you do with people, or have done with people in the middle.
，比如说我们想获取其他公司如何开展业务的信息，也许是他们的策略，我们正在与另一家公司的销售副总裁或首席执行官交谈，而他们却表示不愿意透露。
Like let's say we're wanting to get information of how other people are doing business perhaps, their strategies, we're talking to like a VP of sales in another company, a CEO or something where they're like, I ain't gonna.
有什么不同的策略？
What's the different strategy?
所以不相信是个很好的方法。
So disbelief is a great one.
你要先用一个引发性陈述，也就是所谓的挑衅性陈述。
So you use an elicitation statement that's what's called a provocative statement first.
比如，听说你们公司在业务上做了X、Y、Z这些事。
Like, yeah, heard you guys are doing X, Y, and Z in business.
然后他们会说，是啊，我们这个月做了X，上个月做了X。
And they say, yeah, well, we did X this month and X the other month.
不，这不可能。
Like, no, there's no way.
这个行业没人能赚那么多钱。
No one in this industry makes that much money.
他们就会反问，什么？
And they're going respond by saying, what?
我们确实做到了。
We actually did.
雇了这个，我们做了那个。
Hired this We did that.
天啊，那绝对是有史以来压力最大的事情，要管理所有那些东西。
Say, god, it had to be the most stressful thing of all time, managing all that stuff.
然后说，其实不，这挺简单的。
Goes, actually, no, it's pretty easy.
我们雇了这家公司，我们做了这个，还做了那个。
We hired this firm, and we did this, and we did that.
这样没人会觉得自己在被审问，因为他们没有被直接提问。
So no one feels like they're being interrogated if they're not being asked questions.
所以我们的大脑有个漏洞：如果对方只是用陈述句，我们就不会觉得被侵犯，因此更可能泄露机密信息。
So our brain has this loophole to where if someone's just using statements, we don't feel like anyone's being intrusive into So our we're way more likely to give up confidential information.
所以挑衅性陈述听起来就像'你们不就是做了某某事'或'我听说'、'我读到文章说'、'有人告诉我你们在做某件事'——如果用这种挑衅性陈述来引导对方纠正事实，我会说：'知道吗？我刚听说你们七月份要把整个总部搬到新加坡。'
So provocative statements are sound like so basically you guys just blank blank and blank or I heard that or I read an article that or somebody told me that you guys are doing X or if I'm using a provocative statement and then getting you to correct the record I would say you know what I heard somebody just told me you guys are moving your whole headquarters to Singapore in July.
他们说不是，实际上是九月。
They said no, it's actually September.
我们将在今年秋天搬迁。
We're going to be moving this fall.
所以。
So.
永远记住这一点，至于如何获取供词，如果你愿意我们现在就可以深入讨论。
Always remember that and then when it comes to getting confessions, we can jump into that now if you want to.
好啊，具体是什么方法？
Yeah, yeah, what's the thing?
好，你来带路。
Yeah, you lead the way.
好的。
Okay.
所以在获取供词时，保持非对抗性非常重要。
So when it comes to getting a confession, being non confrontational is very important.
而且我从未，在我一生中从未像你在电视上看到的那些审讯者那样行事，就像那些法律剧之类的。
And it's never, I have never behaved in my lifetime lifetime the way that you see these interrogators behave on television, on like the legal TV shows and stuff.
那很激烈。
It's intense.
是的，非常激烈。
Yeah, it's very intense.
愤怒且对抗性的。
Angry and confrontational.
所以你要保持非对抗性。
So you wanna be non confrontational.
获取供词的方法就是记住这四个词。
And the ways you get a confession is just remember these four words.
社交化、合理化、最小化和投射。
Socialize, rationalize, minimize, and project.
社交化、合理化、最小化和投射。
Socialize, rationalize, minimize, and project.
社交化。
Socialize.
你是说，给我一个犯罪案例，我会告诉你如何获取供词。
You're saying, give me a crime, and I'll I'll tell you how the confession would work.
比如，我做过的一个案例。
Like, one I've done.
假设某人犯了谋杀罪。
Let's say let's say someone's committed murder.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
假设他们杀了人？
Let's say they murdered?
萨莉，她是那个保姆。
Sally, who works at the she's the babysitter.
好的。
Okay.
那个人的保姆，而且是个男的。
That that person's babysitter, and it's a man.
当然，好的，那就社交吧。
Sure, Okay, so socialize.
你知道吗，老兄？
You know what man?
我觉得一旦真相大白，人们会理解他为什么这么做，而且我认为这是合理的。
I think once all this comes out, people are going to understand why he did this, and I think it makes sense.
合理化。
Rationalize.
她从第一天起就一直对你很刻薄，我不知道你是否发现她偷你的钱，或者她在威胁你。
She's been a bitch to you since day one, And I don't know if you found her stealing money from you or she was threatening you.
她甚至可能持有武器，所以你采取那样的行动是完全合理的。
She may have even had a weapon, and that would make absolute sense that you took the action that you did.
下一个是什么？
What's the next one?
社交、淡化、投射。
Socialize, minimize, project.
淡化、投射。
Minimize, project.
你知道吗？
And you know what?
考虑到电视上这些破事和你生活中的遭遇，我认为这根本不是你的错。
With all this shit on TV and the stuff that's going on in your life, I don't think this is your fault at all.
我认为你只是犯了个错误，这是你长期生活环境和反复遭遇所导致的。
I think you made a mistake, and I think that this is something that happens as a result of how you've lived and what you've been exposed to over and over.
电视上整天都在播放暴力内容。
They just put violence on TV all the time.
我不认为这是你的错。
And I don't think it's your fault.
她一直在煽动你、怂恿你、推动你走到这一步。
She was egging you on and egging you on and egging you on into this.
这就是一场铺天盖地的刻薄谩骂，我虽然不确定事实，但敢打赌她很可能对你实施过虐待。
And it was just this huge avalanche of bitchiness and screaming at you and probably I don't know for a fact, but I'm willing to bet she's probably abusive towards you.
最后一个是什么？
What's the final one?
投射。
Project.
外化。
Out.
社交、合理化、最小化。
Socialize, rationalize Minimize.
最小化并投射。
Minimize and project.
所以我们刚才做的就是投射。
So we just did projection.
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