数字刺激：人工智能与色情

是谁推动世界前行？

Who drives the world forward?

是手握答案的人，还是提出正确问题的人？

The one with the answers or the one asking the right questions?

在沙特阿美，我们每天以'如何'开始。

At Aramco, we start every day by asking how.

创新如何帮助为世界提供可靠能源？

How can innovation help deliver reliable energy to the world?

技术如何助力开发新材料以重塑城市？

How can technology help develop develop new materials to reshape cities?

合作如何帮助我们克服最严峻的挑战？

How can collaboration help us overcome the biggest challenges?

要找到答案，首先需要提出正确的问题。

To get to the answer, we first need to ask the right question.

探索沙特阿美，以'如何'为动力。

Search Aramco powered by how.

阿美公司是一家以石油和天然气生产为主营业务的能源与化工企业。

Aramco is an energy and chemicals company with oil and gas production as its primary business.

工艺是一种视角问题，一种独特的眼光，一种对细节的执着关注。

Craft is a matter of perspective, a unique outlook, an obsessive attention to detail.

凭借瑞银首席投资办公室的机构观点，我们专注于识别最新投资机会和市场风险，助您实现财务目标。

With UBS' chief investment office house view, we're focused on identifying the latest investment opportunities and market risks to help you achieve your financial goals.

因此您将获得被分解为发人深省见解的全局图景。

So you get the big picture broken down into thought provoking insights.

由200多位全球互联、本地活跃的分析师每日精心呈现。

Delivered daily and curated by over 200 globally connected, locally active analysts.

瑞银，财富管理是我们的专长。

UBS, managing wealth is our craft.

《经济学人》。

The Economist.

您好，欢迎收听《经济学人》的The Intelligence节目。

Hello, and welcome to The Intelligence from The Economist.

我是你们的主持人，杰森·帕尔默。

I'm your host, Jason Palmer.

每个工作日，我们都会为您提供关于影响世界事件的新鲜视角。

Every weekday, we provide a fresh perspective on the events shaping your world.

周一，我们报道了叙利亚残酷内战结束一年后的现状。

On Monday, we told you about Syria a year after its brutal civil war concluded.

但我们没有提到的是，当地的旅游人数正在回升。

What we didn't mention was that tourism numbers are ticking back up.

在叙利亚和几乎所有发生过暴行的地方，都有所谓的黑暗游客接踵而至。

In Syria and just about everywhere else that atrocities have happened, so called dark tourists follow.

尽管美国存在诸多明显分歧，但有一条裂痕深不可测。

And for all of America's visible divisions, there's one that runs incredibly deep.

诚然，这涉及政治立场，但它更基础、更根本——关乎草坪养护。

Sure, there are political alignments around it, but it's more basic, more fundamental, more about lawn care.

不过首先...

First up though.

纵观历史，当人们面对新的通讯技术时，你知道他们会做什么吗？

Right down through history, you know what people do when they're presented with a new communication technology?

他们制作并传播色情内容。

They make and distribute smut.

古腾堡发明印刷机后不久，低俗小册子就热腾腾地出炉了。

Not long after Gutenberg invented the printing press, saucy pamphlets were hot off the press.

当七十年代胶片被录像带取代时，色情产业比好莱坞早一年推出作品。

When rolls of film gave way to videotape in the seventies, the porn industry put out releases a year before Hollywood did.

色情与科技如影随形，就像手套与马鞭般密不可分。

Porn and technology go together hand in, riding crop in glove.

既然生成式AI已经登场，我想不用我说你也知道发生了什么。

Now that generative AI is in the picture, I probably don't need to tell you what's going on.

当我们这些普通人还在纠结是否要用AI工作时，色情产业已经在快速部署这项技术了。

While the rest of us are men are about whether we wanna use AI for work, the porn industry is getting to work very quickly deploying the technology.

阿瓦蒂卡·奇尔科特是我们的全球商业专栏作家。

Avatika Chilcote is our global business writer.

我采访过的分析师们预测，今年AI驱动的色情内容产值将达到25亿美元。

Some of the analysts I've spoken to have said that they think AI driven pornographic content will be worth $2,500,000,000 this year.

这在某些方面是好事，但也给这个行业背后的性工作者带来了重大难题。

That's great in some ways, but it's also creating really big questions for the sex workers behind this industry.

而且这已经是个庞大的产业了。

And it is already an enormous industry.

没错。

Yep.

直到我开始报道这个行业，我才真正意识到它的规模有多惊人。

Until I started reporting on the industry, I had absolutely no idea just how huge.

首先你得想想有多少人消费色情内容。

I guess you have to think first about how many people consume porn.

在英国，四分之三的男性和一半女性承认看过或正在看色情内容。

So in Britain, three quarters of men and half of all women admit to watching porn or having watched porn.

实际数字可能还要高得多。

And that's probably much higher in reality.

这个行业每年能赚1000亿美元。

The industry makes a $100,000,000,000 a year.

要记住，靠色情内容赚钱其实很难。

Bear in mind that it's really hard to make money off porn.

很多公司不愿意在色情网站上投放广告。

Lots of companies don't want to advertise on porn sites.

但也出现了有趣的新商业模式，比如OnlyFans这样的订阅付费平台。

But you have interesting new business models, things like OnlyFans where people pay subscription fees.

这个行业现在有非常多新的盈利方式。

And there's lots and lots of new ways for this industry to generate revenues.

全球访问量前50的网站中，有5个是色情网站。

Five of the 50 most visited websites in the world are porn sites.

这是个庞大的产业。

This is a huge industry.

只是我们很少谈论它。

We just don't talk about it.

色情产业总是依赖新技术发展。

The porn industry has always sort of hung itself on new technologies.

为什么AI就不同于从印刷机到录像带这些之前的技术呢？

Why is AI any different from what came before from printing press to VHS?

是啊。

Yeah.

我对此思考了很多。

I thought about this a lot.

以往的传播技术主要改变了色情内容的传播方式。

Previous communications technologies basically changed how porn was disseminated.

那么我能快速印刷这些内容吗？

So could I print this stuff really quickly?

我能提供音频色情内容吗？

Could I give you audio porn?

我能提供视频色情内容吗？

Could I give you video porn?

它的可获取性如何？

How accessible is it?

但AI实际上正在改变色情内容的生产方式。

But AI is actually changing how porn is produced.

最初，会有大型色情工作室雇佣性工作者来表演色情内容，然后通过某种方式获得报酬。

Originally, you would have had massive porn studios who employed sex workers who would act out pornography and then somehow that would be paid for.

接着行业发展到下一阶段，出现了OnlyFans这类网站和摄像头站点，性工作者可以自己直播色情内容。

Then you had the next step in the industry, which was sites like OnlyFans and the camera sites where a sex worker could themselves livestream pornographic content.

而这完全是新一代的色情形式：你只需前往生成器，输入你想要的内容，它就会生成文字、图片和视频。

And this is a whole new sort of generation of porn whereby you go to a generator, you type in what you're looking for, and it will spit out text, images, videos.

我曾尝试过一个色情生成器，可以选择肤色、风格、爱好、年龄、色情明星的兴趣等所有细节，它会生成这些'人物'的图像，还有聊天机器人可以满足淫秽对话和幻想需求。

I went on one porn generator where I could select everything from the skin tone, the style, the hobbies, the age, the interests of a porn star, and it would generate images of these people in inverted commas, and also chatbots where I could ask for basically lewd chat and fantasies to be enacted.

这与过去由色情工作室控制内容生产的时代已经相去甚远。

This is really quite far from the days of a porn studio controlling what's actually produced.

就像许多其他行业一样，第一个问题是：AI会让人们失业吗？

So as in so many other industries, question number one is, does the AI put people out of work?

这正是许多性工作者最担忧的第一件事。

And it's the first thing that a lot of sex workers are worrying about.

你会看到这个行业正在以与我们工作因AI应用而改变的几乎完全相同的方式发生变化。

You see the industry changing in basically exactly the same ways that our work is changing from the deployment of AI.

比如性工作者可能使用AI工具来自动化聊天。

So sex workers perhaps using AI tools to automate chat.

如果我和粉丝聊天，他们付费与我交流获取定制内容——实际上完全可以用AI工具生成照片，或者让AI聊天机器人代我回复粉丝。

If I chat with my fans and they pay me for the ability to chat to me, to have tailored content, Well, actually, you could maybe use an AI tool to generate photos, or I could get an AI chatbot to reply to my fans for me.

所以目前很多情况是性工作者运用AI来提高工作效率。

So at the moment, a lot of it is human sex workers deploying AI to make their work more efficient.

但你现在开始看到的是性工作者面临的真正风险——他们可能被机器人取代。

But what you're starting to see is the real, I guess, risk for sex workers that they get replaced by bots.

其中有些人甚至主动拥抱这种趋势。

And some of them are basically leaning into this.

他们授权AI公司使用自己的形象，创建数字分身，希望能从中获利。

They are licensing AI firms to use their images, creating digital doubles of themselves, hoping to make some money off that.

但我的感觉是，他们永远不会被完全取代。

But my sense is they're never gonna get fully replaced.

你在艺术和音乐领域已经看到这种现象了吗？

Do you see this already with art and music?

如果你告诉某人某件作品是机器制作的，他们对艺术和音乐的欣赏程度就会降低。

That if you tell someone something is machine made, they enjoy the art and the music less.

已经有关于AI生成色情内容的研究了。

And there's already studies with AI generated porn.

在其中一项研究中，他们向异性恋者展示了衣着暴露的异性照片。

So in one of these studies, they showed straight people images of scantily clad people of the opposite sex.

然后询问他们：你认为这张照片真实的概率有多大？以及你觉得它有多令人兴奋？

And they asked them, how likely do you think this is real, and how much do you find this arousing?

人们认为图像越真实，就越觉得它令人兴奋。

The more likely someone thought an image was real, the more they found it arousing.

性工作者和色情网站如何应对这一点非常重要。

And how sex workers and porn sites deal with that is really important.

所以这对表演者、对这个行业来说，听起来本质上也不一定是坏事。如果它能减少这个以剥削闻名的行业实际需要的人数，那也不是什么坏事。

So this doesn't sound inherently bad either for the performers, for the industry necessarily, and if it reduces how much of an industry that's notorious for exploitation actually needs people, then that's no bad thing.

从表面上看，我完全同意。

On the face of it, I would completely agree.

对吧？

Right?

如果有人不需要出演他们真正不想演的场景，而能用机器人来替代创作，那简直太棒了。

If someone doesn't need to act out a scene that they don't really want to act out, it's fantastic if a bot can create it instead.

但与此同时，有研究表明，假设存在一种趋势，即暴力色情内容增多，尤其是最近出现的诸如窒息类色情内容。

But at the same time, there are studies that show that, let's say there's a trend for more violent pornography, particularly more recently things like choking and pornography.

有数据显示，人们会模仿他们在色情片中看到的行为。

There is data that shows that people then act out what they see in porn.

这被称为设定性行为脚本。

It's called setting the sexual script.

如果你观看大量暴力色情内容，这很可能会让你想要进行更暴力的性行为，或在未经对方同意的情况下对性伴侣施加暴力。

If you watch lots and lots of porn that is violent, it's not unlikely that that will make you want to have more violent sex or to be violent towards someone you're having sex with without their consent.

一个更明显的担忧是深度伪造技术的兴起。

A much clearer concern is the rise of deepfake technology.

现在你可以上传一张某人穿着整齐的照片，然后有一种叫裸体化应用的东西会生成他们的裸体图像。

You see now you can upload a picture of someone fully dressed, and there's something called a nudify app that will generate an image of them naked.

这并非不切实际。

That is not unrealistic.

已经有很多名人的脸和身体被植入色情视频中，更可怕的是，你现在看到校园霸凌者也在使用这种技术。

There's been lots of celebrities whose faces and bodies have been plastered into porn videos, and really horribly, you're now seeing schoolyard bullies using this technology as well.

有一个群体肯定在使用这种技术，那就是网络诈骗犯。

There's one group that is definitely using that, and that is online scammers.

性与情欲对人们来说是一个如此脆弱的领域。

Sexuality and sex is such a vulnerable space for people.

我认为这是诈骗分子最恶劣的活动场所。

I think it's a really horrible place for for scam artists to be.

里德·安伯是一名性工作者。

Reid Amber is a sex worker.

她是一档名为《好奇而来》播客的主持人。

She's the host of a podcast called Come Curious.

当我采访她时，她对我说，她收到粉丝的留言，暗示有人在网上模仿她，可能是利用深度伪造技术，然后骗取他们的钱财。

And when I interviewed her, she said to me that she gets messages from fans who suggest to her that people are imitating her online, perhaps using deepfake technology, and then taking their money.

就你描述的这些危险而言，这正是监管机构已经介入且应当介入的领域。

And so far as there are these dangers you described, that is where regulators already are and belong.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

世界各地许多不同的司法管辖区正在尝试用不同的方式来监管这个问题。

Around the world, lots of different jurisdictions are experimenting with different ways of regulating this.

在欧盟，《人工智能法案》基本上要求对合成内容进行标注。

So in The EU, the AI act basically requires labeling for synthetic content.

丹麦的做法非常有趣，因为他们赋予了人们对自己肖像的版权，尽管具体含义尚不明确。

Denmark's been very interesting because they have given people copyright over their own likeness, though it's not exactly clear what that means.

一次又一次，正如我们从以往技术中看到的，色情产业非常擅长钻监管安全网的空子。

Time and again, as we've seen from previous technologies, porn and the porn industry is very good at wriggling its way through regulatory safety nets.

特别是在AI领域，测试这些工具时，要准确知道输入什么指令能让机器人输出非法内容（比如儿童性虐待材料），这对监管者来说很难在滥用发生前预判。

In particular with AI, testing these tools, knowing exactly what I'm gonna type in to make this bot spit out illegal content, say child sexual abuse material, it's very hard for regulators to guess that in advance of misuse.

我认为许多学者指出的是，对绝大多数人而言，希望在于每个人都能约束自己的不良本能。

And I think what a lot of academics say is that for the vast majority of people, the hope is that everybody just keeps their own bad instincts in check.

如果你知道OpenAI会记录你在ChatGPT上的所有输入内容，而你是一家大公司的CEO，在完成日常工作后，难道真的会用它来生成SM色情内容吗？

If you know that OpenAI is gonna have data on what you type into ChatGPT and you're the CEO of a big company, after you do your uses of chat GPT for your everyday work, are you really gonna start using it for, I don't know, dominatrix porn?

我认为监管机构很大程度上依赖于两个观点：一是人们能克制自己的本能冲动，二是现实中的性体验更美好。

I think this idea that people, a, can keep their own instincts in check and, b, just like real world sex better is what a lot of regulators are relying on.

岩田，非常感谢你抽空参与。

Iwatika, thanks very much for your time.

谢谢邀请。

Thanks for having me.

是谁在推动世界前进？

Who drives the world forward?

是掌握答案的人，还是提出正确问题的人？

The one with the answers or the one asking the right questions?

在沙特阿美，我们每天以提问'如何'开始。

At Aramco, we start every day by asking how.

创新如何帮助为世界提供可靠能源？

How can innovation help deliver reliable energy to the world?

技术如何助力开发新材料重塑城市？

How can technology help develop new materials to reshape cities?

合作如何帮助我们克服最大挑战？

How can collaboration help us overcome the biggest challenges?

要得到答案，我们首先需要提出正确的问题。

To get to the answer, we first need to ask the right question.

搜索'沙特阿美：以如何驱动'。

Search Aramco powered by how.

沙特阿美是一家能源化工企业，以油气生产为主要业务。

Aramco is an energy and chemicals company with oil and gas production as its primary business.

帕尔米拉是一座建立在古代贸易路线上的城市，在2011年内战爆发前曾是叙利亚最受欢迎的旅游景点之一。

Palmyra is this city which is built on an ancient trading route, and it was one of Syria's most popular tourist sites before the civil war broke out in 2011.

梅格娜·纳努是我们外事部门通讯的编辑。

Meghna Nanu is the editor of our foreign department newsletters.

国际旅游业完全停滞。

International tourism completely stopped.

叙利亚成为了一个被孤立的国家。

Syria became a pariah state.

而在巴沙尔·阿萨德政权倒台后的过去一年里，许多游客开始重返叙利亚。

And in the last year since Bashir al Assad's regime has fallen, lots of tourists have started to return.

他们不仅去参观神庙和剧院，还有一群人开始前往那些发生过暴行的战争遗址。

And they're not just going to see the temples and the theaters, but there's a group of them who have started to visit the war sites where all the atrocities took place.

这些人被称为黑暗游客。

And these people are known as dark tourists.

那么请多告诉我一些关于这些黑暗游客的事情，他们与那些只为神庙和剧院而来的人有什么不同？

So tell me more about these dark tourists and and what makes them different from the people who are just there for the the temples and the theaters.

区分黑暗游客与仅仅对非常规旅行地好奇的人的关键在于，前者明确想去暴行发生地参观。

So what makes someone a dark tourist as opposed to just someone who's curious about traveling somewhere a bit unusual is they specifically want to go to sites where atrocities have taken place.

而且通常，他们的访问时机往往带有某种令人不适的因素。

And often, there's an element of unsavouriness about when they're visiting.

以叙利亚为例，由于政权垮台不久，人们竟可能想在被称为'人类屠宰场'的塞德纳亚监狱（叙利亚最严酷的监狱）自拍，这确实有些怪异。

For example, with Syria, it's obviously all very recent since the fall of the regime, and the idea that people are going to perhaps take selfies at what's known as the human slaughterhouse, which is Sednaiya, a prison which is famous as being the toughest prison in Syria, is a bit odd.

我的同事海迪曾参加过叙利亚这类旅行团，她的导游是位叫丽塔·巴德兰的女性，她在Instagram上宣传自己的服务。

My colleague, Heidi, actually went on one of these tours in Syria, and her guide was a woman called Rita Badran, and she advertises her services on Instagram.

她拥有超过2.5万名粉丝。

So she's got more than 25,000 followers.

这里我们可以看到大量阿萨德政权的标签。

Here we have some, like, a very abundant tag of Assad regime.

你可以看到它们数量多么庞大。

You can see how it is completely abundant.

这些标签已经不再使用了。

It's not used.

看到阿萨德就这样投降了真是太好了。

It's just good to see how Assad is just what was surrendered.

她提供私人导览服务，每人收费130美元。

She offers private tours, which cost a $130 per person.

另外还需支付100美元的特别许可费才能进入塞德纳亚监狱。

And there's an extra $100 permit fee specifically to get into Sednaiya, the prison.

去年我在乌克兰切尔诺贝利附近时就听说过这类事情，人们会前往发生过可怕事件的地点。

Now I did hear about some of this when I was near, not at Chernobyl last year in Ukraine, that this idea that people are coming to sites where terrible things happened.

我了解到这种现象实际上相当普遍。

I gather then it's actually quite widespread.

是的。

Yeah.

所以不仅限于叙利亚。

So it's not just limited to Syria.

人们还会去伊朗。

People go to Iran.

人们会去阿富汗、朝鲜。

People go to Afghanistan, North Korea.

在以色列，黑暗游客会前往哈马斯10月7日袭击中造成1200人死亡的现场。

And in Israel, dark tourists are going to the sites where 1,200 people were killed in Hamas' attack on October 7.

有些公司的核心理念就是专门经营这类旅游项目。

There are specific companies whose entire ethos is based on doing this sort of tourism.

我采访过一家名为'青年先锋'的公司，他们的宣传语是'母亲最不愿让你去的地方'。

One company I spoke to is called Young Pioneers, and their tagline is places your mother would rather you stay away from.

这在全球范围内也是一项巨大的产业。

This is a massive business around the world as well.

市场研究公司Global Industry Analysts估计这个市场价值350亿美元，而且还在持续增长。

Global Industry Analysts, which is a market research firm, estimates that the market is worth $35,000,000,000, and it's only going to continue growing.

通过调查，这似乎揭示了人们想去这些地方的一种相当令人不安的心理。

So having looked into this, this is sort of revealing something quite unpleasant about people wanting to to go to these places.

你认为这种痴迷是从哪里开始的？

Where where do you think the obsession starts?

暗黑旅游这个术语最早出现在90年代末。

The term dark tourism was first coined in the late nineties.

学者们提出了这个词，源于公众对参观肯尼迪遇刺地点产生了浓厚兴趣。

These academics came up with the phrase, and it stemmed from the public becoming really interested in going to the site where JFK was assassinated.

但我认为这种现象已经存在了几个世纪。

But I think this has been going on for centuries.

追溯到古罗马时期，人们就曾去圆形剧场观看角斗士搏斗。

If you go back to the Romans, people used to go and watch gladiators fight in amphitheaters.

这种行为本身并不新鲜，但社交媒体的兴起和网红们发布冷门景点，使得这类旅游变得更易接触和广为人知。

So that in itself isn't new, but I suppose the rise of social media and influences posting unseen destinations, that's made it a lot more accessible and a lot more widely known.

廉价旅行与这些因素结合，导致了暗黑旅游的激增。

So cheap travel and that combined has led to a surge.

你一直在暗示一个问题：这种行为是否恰当，是体面还是不体面，是否正确公正。

And you've been hinting sort of throughout here that there is a question as to whether this is appropriate, whether it is savory or unsavory, whether it's right and just.

你对此得出答案了吗？

Did did you land on an answer to that?

嗯，我觉得这个问题相当复杂。

Well, it's quite complicated, I think.

这其中确实存在一些病态的元素。

There are definitely morbid elements to it.

一个特别具有争议性的例子是美国YouTuber洛根·保罗在2017年的行为。

One example where this was particularly controversial was with Logan Paul, who's an American YouTuber back in 2017.

他在2017年发布了来自奥卡古拉森林（即自杀森林）的照片。

He posted a photo from the Okagura Forest, which is known as the Suicide Forest back in 2017.

当时YouTube实际上与他断绝了关系，但他现在拥有2300万粉丝。

And YouTube actually cut ties with him at the time, but he now has 23,000,000 followers.

事实上，他通过发布这类内容反而增加了粉丝数量。

So he's actually increased the number of followers he's got from posting this sort of content.

但并非所有黑暗游客都是如此。我采访了黑暗旅游网站的创始人彼得·霍恩豪斯，他说我们某种程度上将黑暗游客与猎奇者混为一谈了。

But not all dark tourists are of that So I spoke to Peter Hohenhouse who founded the dark tourism website, and he says that we kind of conflate the idea of dark tourists with voyage.

去年参观奥斯维辛集中营的许多人都是为了表达敬意。

Lots of the people who visited Auschwitz last year would have done so to pay their respects.

但也有人在集中营外自拍。

But then there are people who would take selfies outside the concentration camp.

欧文·豪斯说得很好，他说有自私的蠢货，也有黑暗游客，但他们不是一回事。

Owen House put it quite well in that he said, there are selfish idiots, and then there are dark tourists, but they aren't the same thing.

玛格娜，非常感谢你抽时间接受采访。

Magna, thank you very much for your time.

谢谢你，杰森。

Thank you, Jason.

是谁推动世界向前发展？

Who drives the world forward?

是拥有答案的人，还是提出正确问题的人？

The one with the answers or the one asking the right questions?

在阿美石油公司，我们每天以提问'如何'开始。

At Aramco, we start every day by asking how.

创新如何帮助为世界提供可靠的能源？

How can innovation help deliver reliable energy to the world?

技术如何助力开发新材料以重塑城市？

How can technology help develop new materials to reshape cities?

合作如何帮助我们克服最大挑战？

How can collaboration help us overcome the biggest challenges?

要找到答案，我们首先需要提出正确的问题。

To get to the answer, we first need to ask the right question.

搜索Aramco，由'如何'驱动。

Search Aramco powered by how.

Aramco是一家能源和化工公司，以石油和天然气生产为主要业务。

Aramco is an energy and chemicals company with oil and gas production as its primary business.

限时三分钟。

There will be a three minute limit.

三分钟结束时，蜂鸣器会响起。

At the end of three minutes, that beeper will go off.

镇书记已经。

The township secretary has.

下梅里恩镇是费城的一个小郊区。

Lower Merion Township is a small suburb of Philadelphia.

而在十一月，他们召开了一次极具争议的市议会会议。

And in November, they had a very controversial city council meeting.

你们应该知道，我们已经听取了大约五个半小时关于这个议题的公众意见。

You should also be aware that we have already heard something like five and a half hours of public comment on this topic.

我们对这些问题已经相当了解了。

We're pretty well briefed in the issues.

这场辩论已经持续了数月之久。

This debate has been going on for months.

引发这么多人关注的问题——非法移民？堕胎？还是跨性别者权益相关？都不是。

The issue that brought out all these people, illegal immigration, abortion, something to do with transgender rights, no.

是吹叶机的问题。

It's leaf blowers.

我花了数千美元清理这些树叶。

I spend thousands of dollars getting these leaves cleaned.

我的园丁将不得不提高价格。

My gardener will have to raise his prices.

我做不到，也不知道谁会去做。

I can't do that, and I don't know who's going to do that.

我和同学们已经收集了141个支持这项条例的签名。

My classmates and I have collected 141 signatures supporting this ordinance.

谁会

Who's gonna

坐四座车出行？

get around in four seat?

周末怎么办？

What happens on the weekends?

我们要给他们支付四小时一倍半的工资。

We're gonna pay them time and a half for four hours.

如果找不到人，我们就叫警察来。

If we can't get nobody, we're gonna call the police department.

警察部门已经够忙的了。

Police department has enough to worry about.

这个问题看似不大，却暴露了社区间的一些重大分歧。

This issue might not seem like a big deal, but it exposes some big divisions in communities.

让我们深入探讨这些分歧的核心。

Let's get into the meat of these divisions.

那些反对者，就是讨厌吹叶机的人。

The haters, the people who hate leaf blowers.

为什么？

Why?

这个很简单。

So that one's easy.

它们噪音大得惊人。

They're incredibly noisy.

它们污染严重，而且人们说使用者甚至都不把落叶收集起来。

They are incredibly polluting, and people say that the people using them don't even collect up the leaves.

他们只是把树叶吹到街上，吹到别人的地盘上。

They just blow them into the streets, into somebody else's property.

污染方面可能是最让我惊讶的。

The pollution aspect is the thing that perhaps surprised me most.

使用一台吹叶机一小时产生的局部空气污染相当于驾驶1100英里。

Using a single leaf blower for an hour creates as much local air pollution as driving 1,100 miles.

好吧。

Okay.

那么更棘手的问题可能是：谁喜欢它们，为什么？

So maybe the stickier question, who loves them and why?

最喜欢它们的人是园艺师和雇佣园艺师的人。

Well, the people who like the most are landscapers and people who employ landscapers.

园艺公司表示电动吹叶机效果不好且更昂贵，改用它们会导致公司倒闭。

Landscaping firms say that the electric leaf blowers are not as good and that they're more expensive, and so switching to them will push them out of business.

而那些雇佣使用吹叶机的园艺师的人——比如高尔夫俱乐部、乡村俱乐部、拥有大花园的人——他们担心随着对汽油动力吹叶机的限制，他们的成本会上升。

And the kind of people who employ landscapers using leaf blowers, so golf clubs, country clubs, people with big gardens, they are worried that their costs will go up with these kind of restrictions on petrol powered leaf blowers.

你说吹叶机的支持者和反对者之间的冲突真的很严重吗？

And the rumble between the lovers and the haters is really serious, you're saying?

是的。

Yeah.

甚至演变成肢体冲突。

It comes to blows.

在俄勒冈州波特兰市，他们去年通过了对汽油动力吹叶机的限制，有800人留下了某种形式的公众评论。

In Portland, Oregon, they passed a restriction on petrol powered leaf blowers last year, and 800 people left some sort of public comment.

在芝加哥郊区埃文斯顿，去年一项法令生效后，一群园艺师组织了抗议活动。

In Evanston, which is a suburb of Chicago, there were a bunch of landscapers organized protests last year after an ordinance came into effect.

这种愤怒情绪已经持续了一段时间。

Some of this rage has gone on for a while.

洛杉矶曾在1998年试图禁止吹叶机。

In Los Angeles, they tried to ban leaf blowers in 1998.

事实上，由于严重的空气污染，加州许多城市都这么做过。

In fact, a lot of Californian cities did because of the worst air pollution.

许多园艺工人进行了绝食抗议。

And there was a hunger strike by a lot of landscapers.

所以这又是一件分裂美国人的事情。

So yet another thing dividing Americans.

是的。

Yeah.

这非常政治化，而且越来越具有党派性。

It's very political, and it's increasingly partisan.

想要禁止吹叶机的地方往往倾向于左翼。

Places that want to ban leaf blowers tend to be left leaning.

在Lower Merion地区，四分之三的人去年投票支持卡玛拉·哈里斯。

In in Lower Merion, three quarters of people voted for Kamala Harris last year.

而一些更保守的地方则采取更自由主义的观点。

And some more conservative places take a more libertarian view.

你知道，他们说这是业主吸吹的权利。

You know, they say it is the right of property owners to suck and blow.

德克萨斯州和佐治亚州的州政府都是共和党执政的地方，他们已通过法律禁止各市镇对汽油动力吹叶机和电动吹叶机区别对待，这基本上意味着你无法禁止它们。

So the state governments of Texas and Georgia, both Republican places, have passed laws banning municipalities from treating petrol powered leaf blowers any differently from electric ones, which basically means you can't ban them.

但仇恨是真实存在的，而且法律正在针对那些喜爱吹叶机的人。

But the hate is real, and, the law is coming for for the lovers.

你认为这类禁令会蔓延开来吗？

Do you see bans like this spreading?

哦，我认为它们会非常迅速地蔓延开来。

Oh, I think they're going to spread very quickly.

这种禁止使用吹叶机的浪潮始于疫情期间，显然，当时很多人居家办公，意识到邻居制造了多少噪音。

This kind of surge in banning of leaf blowers began with the pandemic, and, obviously, an awful lot of people were at home trying to work and realized how much noise their neighbors create.

但人们的意识正在逐渐增强，许多组织进行游说，指出这些设备污染有多严重，而且替代汽油动力吹叶机的电动设备正变得越来越普遍。

But there is a kind of growing awareness, a lot of lobbying from organizations that are pointing out how polluting these things are and that the alternatives to petrol powered leaf blowers, the electric ones, are only getting more common.

所以我认为，现在各地要说不就容易多了。

So it's a lot easier for places, I think, to say, no.

我们将禁止这些噪音极大、有害的机器。

We're gonna ban these very loud, noxious machines.

所以我认为禁令会增多，但你也知道，以政治的常态来看，很可能会遇到阻力。

So I think the bans are gonna grow, but, you know, inevitably, politics being the way it is, there's likely to be pushback.

丹尼尔，非常感谢你参与我们的节目。

Daniel, thanks very much for joining us.

杰森，总是很愉快。

Jason, it's always the delight.

谢谢邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

以上就是本期《情报》的全部内容。

That's all for this episode of The Intelligence.

我们明天再见。

We'll see you back here tomorrow.

是谁推动世界向前发展？

Who drives the world forward?

是掌握答案的人，还是提出正确问题的人？

The one with the answers or the one asking the right questions?

在沙特阿美，我们每天以提问'如何'开始。

At Aramco, we start every day by asking how.

创新如何帮助为世界提供可靠能源？

How can innovation help deliver reliable energy to the world?

技术如何帮助开发新材料以重塑城市？

How can technology help develop new materials to reshape cities?

合作如何帮助我们克服最大挑战？

How can collaboration help us overcome the biggest challenges?

要找到答案，我们首先需要提出正确的问题。

To get to the answer, we first need to ask the right question.

搜索'沙特阿美，以问促创'。

Search Aramco powered by how.

沙特阿美是一家能源化工企业，以石油和天然气生产为主要业务。

Aramco is an energy and chemicals company with oil and gas production as its primary business.