时尚神经症与亚历克斯·康萨尼

嘿，我是塔菲，正在The Cut平台主持一档名为《塔菲脱口秀》的新播客。把我当成你的职场闺蜜，我会带你深入探讨最劲爆的流行文化、解读名人八卦，畅聊现代生活。每周三在YouTube或你喜欢的播客平台更新新集。让我们一起愉快地逃避正经工作吧。

Hey. I'm Tuffy, and I'm hosting a new podcast from the cut called Tuffy Talks. Think of me as your work bestie who's here to give you all the juiciest pop culture deep dives, read celebrity tea leaves, and yap about modern life. New episodes drop every Wednesday on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. It's going to be so fun avoiding actual work together.

长期以来，关于新陈代谢一直存在一个相当明确的说法。

For a long time, there's been a pretty clear narrative around metabolism.

醒醒吧，美国同胞们。你们准备好洗耳恭听了吗？还是想继续变胖变虚弱？

Wake up, America. Are you guys ready to listen, or you wanna get fatter and sicker?

但在本周《不可思议》节目中，最新研究让科学家开始怀疑：他们曾经视为理所当然的基本认知可能是错误的。

But this week on unexplainable, recent research has scientists wondering whether some of the most basic things they took for granted are wrong.

我以为我了解新陈代谢，但后来发现并非如此。我真的很想知道它究竟是什么？这背后的真相到底是什么？

I thought I understood metabolism, but I realized I didn't. And I really wanted to know what is it? Like, what is this really about?

订阅《不可思议》，每周一和周三更新新集。

Follow Unexplainable for new episodes every Monday and Wednesday.

嗨，请进。欢迎来到《时尚神经症》，我是亚历克斯·坎萨尼。你好啊，贝拉。

Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, Alex Kansani. Hello, Bella.

非常感谢邀请我。能告诉我你今天穿的是什么以及为什么选择这些特别的衣服吗？今天我穿的是Connor Ives的上衣，我奶奶的一些内衣，还有一双Alaya的鞋子。我特别喜欢这件衬衫，因为上面有泛美航空公司的标志。

Thank you so much for having me. Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes? Today, I'm wearing a top from Connor Ives and some of my grandma's lingerie and a pair of Alaya shoes. And I love this shirt because Transamerica babes.

哦，这个搭配非常棒。我超爱那些衬裙。作为设计师我知道它们制作起来非常困难，但市面上只能找到那些批量生产的老款式，我觉得这是最能展现魅力、最迷人的服装了。完全同意，尤其是搭配腿部线条时。

Oh, it's a very good combo. I love those slips. They're really difficult things to make as a designer but you can only find the old ones which are made en masse and they're I think the most charming, beguiling garment that anyone can wear. Totally. Especially with the legs.

谢谢。是的，我知道是他发现了这件衬衫，想把它送给我。他把它改造成了这么漂亮的衬衫。我一直等着穿它。

Thank you. Yeah. I know he found the shirt and, like, wanted to give it to me. And he, like, made it into this beautiful shirt. And I've been waiting to wear it.

时装周期间我穿过一次，现在又能穿着它上你的播客节目。穿着它来到这里我真的很开心。而且...

I wore it during fashion week once, and now I get to wear it on your podcast. And I'm so happy to be here wearing it. And am

我没记错吧？你21岁？我21岁。是的。好的。

I right? You're 21? I'm 21 years old. Yes. Okay.

所以你21岁就已经是

So you're 21 and you're one of

全球最成功的模特之一了。你出道很早，12岁就突然走红，成为世界上最年轻的跨性别模特。那个突然走红的时刻是怎样的？其实我只是看到了时尚界，对我来说那是如此美丽又遥不可及的世界，因为当时我和像我这样的人都没有参照对象。所以小时候我有机会和朋友一起拍了一组照片，那次经历非常有趣，让我意识到时尚可以多么美好，可以多么富有创造力。

the most successful models in the world. You started really young, bursting on the scene, age 12, becoming the youngest transgender model in the world. And what was the bursting on the scene moment? I mean, I really just saw fashion, and it was something so beautiful to me and something so far away just because there was no point of reference for me or anyone like me. So I had the opportunity when I was young to like do a shoot with one of my friends and it was a was a really fun experience and it made me realize how beautiful it could be to be in fashion and how creative it could be.

而这就是我爱上它的原因，正是它创意的一面，像是与某人合作打造一个形象，对我来说被衣物环绕的感觉是如此迷人。我想在我生命中那个特别需要动力的阶段，这段经历真正推动了我走到今天的位置。至今我仍深深珍视那段记忆。

And that's what I fell in love with, was just the creativity aspect of it and like working with someone to make an image and it being surrounded by clothes for me was just so glamorous. And I think I had that experience at a time in my life that I really was motivated to do something. So that was what really pushed me, I guess, to be where I am today. And I still hold on to that a lot.

童年时你第一件渴望拥有的衣物是什么？小时候，它

What was the first piece of clothing that you longed for as a child? As a child, it

是Target超市的一条裙子。那是条灰姑娘式的粉色连衣裙，我有张穿着它的照片。记得以前我总穿得乱七八糟，完全没有女性气质。有次镇上举办德国传统庆典，我穿了皮裤，那简直是我最想立刻逃离现场的時刻。

was this dress from Target. It was a Cinderella dress, this pink cinderella dress. I have a picture of me wearing it, but I remember, I mean, I used to just wear random like clothes. I mean, wasn't feminine at all. And I remember having this one moment where we had this celebration in our town where was like traditional German and I wore lederhosen and I never wanted to fucking leave the event more than this.

太可怕了。戴着插羽毛的帽子，一点都不时髦。我渴望的是华丽礼服。后来去Target发现了这条裙子，它完美符合想象。我缠着父母买下，具体过程记不清了，但照片里的我穿着它配毛绒小猫跟鞋，确实...

Like it was horrible. I had like the hat with the feather and it just wasn't chic for me. I wanted something fabulous like a gown. And then I went to Target I think later that week and found this dress and it was just like, it was fabulous and I was asking my parents for it. I don't remember exactly how they gave it to me but they have the dress and there's all these pictures of me with these like little fluffy little kitten heels and this dress and yeah.

真希望那条裙子还在。

I I wish I had that dress though.

这就是适合我的风格。嗯。我有过类似体验，是件粉色格子衬衫，帮我协调了性格中男女气质的两面。

That was a consolidating moment of, like, this is what's gonna work for me. Mhmm. Yeah. Had that moment with a pink gingham shirt. I got to kind of accommodate my my boy girl sides.

完全理解。回想12岁时，我正经历认同危机，而你父母送你去跨性别夏令营。嗯。这种理解程度令人惊叹，我好奇你当时的感受——在年少时获得如此多的认可，是否既像解放的通道，也像种负担？

Totally. And I mean, when I think back on when I was 12, I was having a crisis of alienation and when you were 12 your parents sent you on a summer a trans summer camp. Mhmm. And that seemed incredible amount of understanding and I wonder what was that that was like for you because, you know, in a way to be given that much acknowledgment at a young age, I wondered if that felt like a burden as well as a kind of access to liberation. Yeah.

不，我是说，它

No. I mean, it

太棒了。我认为我的父母非常懂得如何支持我。而我认为这一切的基础就是爱。我觉得很多跨性别孩子的父母也应该遵循这一点，因为可以说，正是这些时刻改变了我的生活。我至今仍与那个夏令营的许多朋友保持着联系。

was amazing. I think my parents had a really good understanding of how to support me. And I think the basis of it was just love. I think that's something that a lot of parents of trans children should follow as well because, I mean, I can say it changed my life to have them have these moments. I'm still friends like with a lot of people from that camp specifically.

我最好的朋友之一艾拉，我们从2014年那个夏令营就认识了，身边有理解你所经历挣扎的同龄人，尤其是当你的家人也支持你时，这种体验无比珍贵。我很幸运他们还主动做了研究，因为不需要我来教他们，这改变了局面——他们通过提问和研究，以我理解自己的方式理解了我。作为父母，我希望你们只想全心全意爱自己的孩子，而我一直能感受到他们的爱。所以那一定是

One of my best friends Ella, we've been friends since I think 2014 from this camp and it's just such such a beautiful experience to have peers around you, especially who understand the struggle that you go through and especially when it's your family, having them support you, it's it's so important. And I'm blessed that they did their own research as well because it wasn't something I had to teach them, which I think kind of changed the game because they understood me in the same way that I understood myself because they cared to to ask questions and do research. And I think being a parent, all you want or all I would hope you would want want is to love your kids, you know, and I think that that's how I always felt from them. So It must be an have been an amazing moment where

他们放下了对孩子的预设，全然接受你教育他们的方式——这就是真实的我

they suspend what they assume about their child and just embrace what you how you educated them into this is who I

完全同意。不过作为父母，预设可能很危险，因为你永远无法对孩子有太多假设。我们会对孩子有梦想和期待，但当我听到父母说'我想让我的跨性别孩子成功'时，

am. Totally. I think assumptions though can be a bit difficult as a parent because you can never assume much about your child. I mean, have dreams and hopes of what you want them to be and how you want them to live their life. But I think what I hear when parents come up to me a lot and are like, I want my trans child to be successful.

我总会回答：'给他们爱的工具就够了'。真的，归根结底，

Like, what do I do to give them those tools? It's just love. Yeah. I mean,

爱是一切问题的答案。它就像指南针，只要人们愿意铭记这点，一切都会好起来。对了，时尚在你们家重要吗？你有着惊人的时尚品味，这是受父母影响还是另有渊源？

in the end, love is always the answer to everything. It kind of is just the compass and everything will work out if that's what people are prepared to kind of remember. Totally. And was fashion a thing in your household and you have such an incredible sense of style. And does that come does that come from either of your parents or is there someone who you feel it it sort of trickled down in

基因吗？是的。我在旧金山长大，至少在我家里，风格非常复古怀旧，人们很欣赏那种东西。我完全不认为我家是个时尚之家。

the genes? Yeah. I mean, I grew up in San Francisco. I feel like style was very at least in my household, was very like vintage, old, people appreciated that kind of stuff. I wouldn't say I was in a fashion household at all.

我第一次听说时尚是去参观让·保罗·高缇耶的展览，大概是2009年在笛洋美术馆，那真是大开眼界，因为那是我第一次真正把时尚视为艺术，而不仅仅是穿什么、搭配什么。但我觉得对衣物精打细算的风格确实延续至今，这绝对是我父母给我的启发。不过我不确定那算不算时尚。

The first time I ever heard of fashion was when I went to an exhibition for Jean Paul Gauthier. And I think it was like 2009 at the De Young Museum and it was such an eye opener because that for me was the first time I really got to see fashion as an art and not just as what you wear, what you put on. But I think definitely the style of being resourceful with your clothing is something that I used to this day and my parents definitely inspired that. But don't know if I call that fashion.

他们平时怎么穿？他们中有谁有特别鲜明的穿衣风格吗？或者很酷的搭配方式？还是说他们的穿着相当务实？我是说，从某种意义上他们很传统。比如，我的——

How do they dress? Does do either of them have a kind of kind of distinctive way of dressing or just a cool way of putting things together or are they quite matter of fact in in their outfits? I mean, they're very traditional in the sense. Like, my

爸爸最爱法兰绒纽扣衬衫配牛仔裤，脚上不是匡威就是斯佩里甲板鞋。我妈则是木屐狂热者，牛仔裤加马甲。

dad loves a flannel button up, a pair of jeans, either Converse or Sperry topsiders. My mom is a clog queen, jeans and a vest.

这大概是我们那代人的风格。我们上学时就那么穿。

That's probably my generation. That's what we wore at school.

但我超爱这种风格。既别致又能让他们感到舒适，这才是时尚应有的作用。

I love it though. I mean, it's it's fabulous and I think it's it makes them feel comfortable, which is what fashion should do.

是啊。而且你上学时数学真的很棒。

Yeah. And you were really good at math at school.

哇哦，你做了功课？我是说，我觉得是的。没错。但你还

So wow. You did your research? I mean, I would say so. Yeah. But do you

现在还练习吗？你还把它当作放松技巧或学习另一门语言的方式吗？比如，你知道，你做了这么多事，中间总有些间隙。我在想这是不是你偶尔会玩的东西。

practice that still? Do you still use it like, you know, sort of relaxation technique or like learning another language? Some, you know, you do so much and you have these moments in between. I wondered if that's something you kind of like play with.

老实说，我应该的。最近我一直在想这件事。我缺的就是打印一张除法表，然后做做数学题，这对我来说挺怪的，因为我所有朋友都会说，宝贝，呃，我们讨厌数学。但我确实很久没做数学了，除了报税这类事。

Honestly, I should. I've been thinking about it recently. What I've been missing is like printing out a like division sheet and just like doing math, which is so freaky of me because every one of my friends is like, babe, eek. We hate math. But no, I haven't I haven't done math in a second other than, like, taxes, which

即使你能做到报税，那也很厉害了，对吧。

Well, even if you can do that, that's amazing. Right.

我的意思是，不只是我在做，但我一定会再三检查，你知道的，必须确保一切正确。不过那些数字并不疏远，它们是——它们是朋友。没错。

I mean, it's not it's not just me doing it, but I I make sure. I triple check, you know, gotta make sure everything's correct. But those numbers aren't alienate. They they your friends. Exactly.

是啊。因为人们常说数学和音乐很接近，这是我唯一能想象进入数学的方式。我对数学有种天然的盲区。但

Yeah. Because people talk about math being very close to music, and that's the only way I could imagine getting in. I just have a sort of blindness. But

对。我过去喜欢数学的原因就是它非对即错。这是我最爱的科目，因为像英语这类学科需要解读，老师看你写的东西会说，哦，我觉得这里或那里可以更好，但数学就像，你要么做对了，要么没对，而这就是你需要改正的地方。作为一个学生，我觉得...

Yeah. I mean, what I always loved about math was that it was either right or wrong. That was my favorite subject because, you know, for English, was like an interpretation. They would see what you wrote and say, oh, well, I think you could have done this better or that better, but math it's like, you either got it correct or you didn't and this is what you need to do to make it correct. Which for me as a student, I don't know.

对我来说这样更容易理解。而且不知怎么的，我总是稍微领先一步。所以感觉就像...是的，当我觉得自己真的什么都懂时，那种感觉很好，你懂的。

It was just easier to understand for me. And I also somehow was always a little bit ahead of the curve. So it was like Yeah. It was nice when I felt like I actually understood everything, you know.

我这辈子从没听人这样描述过，真的吗？这让它变得意义非凡，因为我以前很糟糕就直接放弃了。但想到它如此确定...嗯，我从未想过这点，太有趣了。

I've never heard it described like that in my whole life and it Really? Makes it mean something so much more than it because I was bad at it. I just dismissed it. But the idea of it being so definite Mhmm. It never crossed my mind, but that's so interesting.

我...你喜欢并擅长这个。是的。这就是它的本质。能获得真正确定性的机会太罕见了，我想这就是它的意义所在。完全同意。

I that you like it and are good at it. Yeah. And that's what it embodies. So rare that there's an opportunity for real certainty and I suppose that's where that's where it lives. Totally.

女演员格温多琳·克里斯蒂说过，服装的使命是让你成为更完整的自己而非缩水版。精辟。有什么你每天爱穿的单品能让你想起这点吗？

And the actress Gwendoline Christie said that the job of clothes is to be more yourself instead of a diminished version. Tea. And is there something you love to wear every day that reminds you of this?

我没有特定单品，但能让我感觉自信的就行。最近我很爱高跟鞋，作为高个子女性，以前穿高跟鞋多少会感到难为情——倒不是羞耻，但毕竟六尺身高再穿高跟鞋更引人注目。但现在我重新拥抱它，因为这就像...我走进房间时反正都会引人注目，不如踩着惊艳的高跟闪亮登场。

I don't have one specific item, but I think something that just makes me feel confident. I mean, I love heels as of recently, I'm a very tall woman, so wearing heels sometimes. It was something that I kind of was almost ashamed to do. Not ashamed obviously, but it's not something that I would always go to because I'm six foot whatever and wearing any heels brings more attention. But for me, it's something that I've reclaimed and I appreciate it because it's like, I walk in the room and you know I'm here anyway, so I might as well be here in a fabuli issue, you know.

我懂。我也对惊艳的高跟鞋有点上瘾。你搭配服装时会从鞋子开始吗？还是不一定？

I know. I'm a bit of a addicted to a fabulaya shoe as well. Is that where you start with an outfit with a shoe or not necessarily?

说实话是的。通常是先选上衣，但最后定调的是鞋子。经常我穿上鞋后会想'还是换件上衣吧'。所以真该从鞋子开始搭配。

I think honestly, yes, I do. Usually, it's the shirt, but it ends with the shoe. And then I wear a shoe and I'm like, actually, let me change the shirt. Yeah. So I should start with the shoe.

它影响着一切，我想它会改变你的姿态，从而决定你要穿什么。

It informs everything to do with I suppose it changes your posture, so it informs what you're gonna wear.

是的，不，这很有趣。我最近参加了很多活动和晚会之类的，在高级定制试装时，他们总是让你穿高跟鞋，因为这会改变你的姿态，也会改变为你量身定制的裙子效果。所以，当你穿着高跟鞋时，你的身体姿态就是那样的，我从未想过这一点，因为我总是穿高跟鞋。

Yeah. No. It's interesting. I've been doing a lot of, like, events and galas and stuff and for the, like, couture fittings, they always tell you to wear a heel because it changes your posture and it, will change the way that the dress looks when they custom make it for you. So, like, your body is in the posture when you're wearing heels, which I never thought about because I'm always in a heel.

我以为我一直都是那样的，但当我穿上乐福鞋时，我就变成了另一个女人。

I just thought it was how I always was, but then I put on a a loafer and I'm a different a different woman.

不穿高跟鞋几乎不可能穿或拥有舞会礼服所需的效果，因为你需要那样的背部曲线，你知道的，就是

It's just impossible to wear or have what you need to wear a ball gown without a heel because you need that way your back shapes, you know, just

你的臀部线条。没错。然后

the way your hips go. Exactly. And then

这种感觉会传递到大脑，让你能驾驭它。是的，完全正确。

it goes up into your brain and you can kind of pull it off. Yeah, totally.

你总能做到的。哦，你绝对可以应付。只需要一点自信。

You can anyway. Oh, you definitely could chew. Just need a good chew.

对，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

你在时装秀上看过谁的台步并觉得那就是我要学的走法？我是说，维密秀是我成长过程中经常看的，但我真正开始关注时已经进入时尚圈了。所以我不确定。我想那时候并没有特别参照谁。现在嘛，我已经深入时尚行业了。

And whose walk did you watch in fashion shows and think that's gonna be my walk? I mean, Victoria's Secret was something that I watched a lot growing up, but I didn't really watch until I'd already started fashion. So I don't know. I don't think I have somebody that back then I was referencing. Now, I mean, I've gotten into fashion.

有很多人是我渴望成为的朋友和同事榜样之类的。但我觉得当时真的就是...我不知道，从没想过要模仿别人——这么说可能显得自大，毕竟台步本质就是走路。但我觉得那更多是自信的表现，懂吗？我想展现出自信和力量感，在走秀时传递那种气场。

I have a lot of people that I aspire to be similar to as friends and as colleagues, whatever. But I think at the time it was really kind of just I don't know. I never thought about like referencing someone else, which I hate to say because I'm not trying to act like someone's super original at the end of the day, a walk is a walk. But I think that like, was just confidence, you know. I wanted to exude confidence and feel powerful and, like, portray that when I, you know, walked.

所以...是的。我觉得身边人的影响也很重要。

So I don't know. I yeah. I think it was just the people that I was around as well, you know.

这是你与生俱来的天赋？我想是的。因为当我创立品牌时正值超模时代，我看着她们每个人——比如娜奥米的台步简直不可思议，那种独特氛围...我还以为你会通过YouTube研究这些，但看来你是天赋型选手。当然我不会说这是天生的。

Just an innate thing that you had waiting. I guess so. Yeah. Because I suppose, you know, when I was starting my label and it was the era of the supermodels and I'm watching them and how each one, like how Naomi walks is just so incredible and the different kind of atmosphere and I wondered if you'd you'd studied any of that on YouTube, but it seems like you were just born with it. I mean, wouldn't say I was born with it.

这绝对需要时间沉淀。但就像我说的，刚入行时周围都是很友善的人。很多人当时都热心地给我建议。作为时尚圈的年轻人，大家都把这看作我的短板——很幸运他们这么认为，因为我看了你之前做的几期节目，过去的时尚圈完全是另一个世界。我入行时大家觉得我需要指导，而我也虚心接受。更幸运的是，那些建议都来自台步惊艳的前辈。

It definitely took some time, but I think just being around again, like, when I first started fashion, I was around very sweet people. I think so many people when I first started were so motivated to give me advice. I mean, like being someone young in fashion, everyone saw that as a vulnerability, which I'm blessed that when I started people saw it as that, you know, because I'm I was watching other episodes that you made specifically and it's like there's Fashion back in the day was such a different world, you know. So I I started at a time where I feel like people recognize that I needed advice and so I always listened to it. And I'm I'm lucky it was fabulous people that had fabulous walks, you know.

所以

So

如果你情绪低落时，会发现自己穿得更多还是更少？我有个朋友，她心情不好时几乎什么都不穿，而我正相反。如果可以的话，我恨不得裹着尸布走来走去。我想知道你是否注意到，当你处于某种情绪时会有特定的穿衣方式。

And if you're feeling low, do you find you wear more or less clothes? I have a friend who when she's down, she wears kind of almost nothing and I do the opposite. I like would just walk around in a shroud if I could. And I wondered if you noticed there's a particular way you dress if you're feeling a certain way.

没错。我跟你朋友一样。我平时就喜欢穿得越少越好。所以当我情绪低落想找点刺激时，就会穿些特别惊艳的——通常都是短款。

Yeah. Definitely. I'm like your friend. Like I love to wear nothing always. So like when I'm feeling low and I wanna feel extra whatever, I'll just wear something fabulous which is usually short.

通常是束腰配高跟鞋。不过这要看情况，因为出乎意料的是，我并不像其他人那样依赖时尚来调节情绪。我虽然超爱时尚，但更多是凭当下感觉行事。我还没精明到能预判穿搭效果的程度，总要穿上身才知道。但本质上当我情绪低落时，最终总会穿上些——用姑娘们的话说——'骚货'装备。

Usually corset, a heel. But it kind of depends because I surprisingly don't really use fashion to cope as much as I think other people do. I love fashion so much, but I think it's something that I do again kind of feel in the moment. So I'm not strategic enough to like plan out how things make me feel until I have them on. But I think inherently when I'm feeling down, I do end up wearing something as the girls say cunt.

懂了吧？这样很好。

You know? That's good.

就是要把那种能量强行灌注到自己身上，懂吗？所以你们管这叫啥？骚货？对，宝贝儿，就是骚货。

Just just hyper hyperimpose that energy on myself, you know? And so that's how you term it? Cunt? Cunt, babes. Yes.

只要我穿得够短，那就是骚货风。

If I'm wearing something short, it's cunt.

真酷。我喜欢。那你对裸体怎么看？你会喜欢保留些衣物来突出裸露感吗？还是说...

That's really cool. I love it. And how do you feel about being naked? Do you like to keep something on to accentuate the feeling of nudity or?

我是说，裸体是人类的天性。这是人性的一部分，是人类的特质。我喜欢裸体，但这取决于场合。作为模特，这很疯狂，因为我们太习惯裸体了，比如我会直接在店里试衣服，完全忘了要去更衣室。

I mean, being naked is a human nature. It's part of human nature. It's a human trait. I love to be naked, but it just depends the setting. I mean, I think that as a model it's crazy because we're all so used to being naked, you know, like I'll try things on in the store and like forget that I have to go to the changing room.

我就这样脱掉衣服，周围的人都在看，心想这女孩在干嘛？但我觉得，社会给裸体强加了性意味。这很有趣，因为作为模特，你总是在换衣服、试穿，这种经历让我一生中大部分时间都剥离了裸体的性暗示。所以我不介意，反而觉得这是解放，很美。

And I'm just like, my clothes off and everyone's looking around like, what the fuck is this girl doing? But I think it's kind of I think it's there's something that I think society has pushed on being naked that's made it sexual. And I think it's so interesting because being naked for so much of I mean, like, as a model, you're always changing clothes, you're always trying things on, you're always taking on and off clothes. And I think that having that experience for so much of my life, it's really taken that sexual aspect out of nudity. And so I don't really I don't mind it if anything's liberating, it's beautiful.

人体就是人体，对吧？所以我会突然

I mean, like human bodies are human bodies, you know? So I'll pop

露个胸。确实，我唯一有这种感觉是当我父亲画我时，我裸体坐着。

a titty. It's true that I hadn't because the only time I found that was when I sat naked for my father when he was painting me.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那时我觉得完全正常。但和男人裸体时，我就无法自在。即使独处时也做不到。但如果是有目的的，那就只是另一种状态。没错。

And I found it just felt completely normal. But if I'm naked with a guy, I feel I can't be naked. Even when I'm on my own, I'm definitely not there. But if it's part of a purpose, then it's just another state. Exactly.

确实。很有意思。我觉得社会让我们相信裸体总与性有关，但我不这么认为。

It's true. Yeah. It's interesting. I just think that like society has pushed us to believe that nudity has some connotation with sexuality or sexual whatever. But I don't think it does, you know.

我认为意识到作为人类，无论穿不穿衣服，你依然是你自己，这是件非常美妙的事。明白我的意思吗？衣服只是展现你是怎样的人以及你想成为怎样的人的一种方式。懂吧？

And I think it's such a beautiful thing to realize that you as a human, whether you're wearing clothes or not, is still you as a human. You know what I mean? And clothes just give a representation of what kind of human you are and what kind of human you wanna be. You know?

我很喜欢尼克·凯夫歌曲里的那句歌词：我们都衣不蔽体，这让一切变得更有趣。完全同意。你的内向与外向比例如何？因为你看起来天生外向，但我好奇是否有个内向的灵魂藏在你体内。我是说，我

And I love that line in a Nick Cave song that says, we're all naked underneath our clothes and it makes everything much more interesting. Totally. And how's your introvert extrovert ratio? Because you seem like a naturally outgoing person, but I wondered if there's an introvert lurking inside. I mean, I

认为自己绝对是个外向的人。我尽量在可能时内向些，但这对我并不容易，需要刻意努力。不过我也喜欢独处，只是独处时我做的仍是外向的事，比如专注工作之类的。

think I'm definitely an extroverted person. I try to be introverted when I can, but I don't think it's it doesn't come easy for me. I have to try, you know. But, yeah, I'd like to spend time by myself. But when I am by myself, I feel like I'm doing extroverted things like I'm focusing on work or whatever.

但这就是你独自充电的方式吗？而非与他人相处时？是的。可以这么说。我享受工作，享受独处，这正是我职业生涯让我热爱之处——既能做自己想做的线上内容，又能获得他人提供的工作机会，这种独立性从一开始就给了我莫大的自由感。不过我也说不清。

But Is that how you recharge recharge when you're on your own rather than with other people? Yeah. I would say so. I mean, I enjoy I enjoy working and I enjoy being by myself and I enjoy that's what I love so much about the way my careers came, I guess, is that like, it is kind of about like what I wanna do online as well as, you know, what other people give me in terms of work, which is like such a beautiful thing because it's given me such a sense of independence from the beginning. But I don't know.

我充电时...无论周围有没有人，我都可以所谓'内向'。人在不在场其实没差别。但独处确实能带来与他人相处时没有的宁静感。

I mean, when I recharge, it's usually just like I mean, I can be quote unquote introverted by myself or with people around. I don't think it changes whether they're there or not. But I think that being alone does kind of give you a sense of stillness that you don't get with other people.

因为我读过你说'那时觉得自己无所不知或处于知识巅峰'，但回看当年对行业的认知与现在截然不同，过去三四年彻底打开了我的思维。是什么让你思维开阔了呢？完全同意。我是说，

Because I read that you said back then I felt like I knew everything or I was at my most educated. But looking back the way I thought about the industry was so different and the last three or four years have opened my mind. What kind of things have opened your mind? Totally. I mean,

在一个缺乏跨性别代表的行业里做跨性别者很有趣——因为归根结底那并非我的全部。这是我的身份组成部分，但我远不止于此。长久以来我被不由分说地塞进某个框架，被赋予代表群体的浮华形象，这与现实相去甚远。好坏经历让我明白：定义权永远在自己手中。

being trans in an industry that hasn't had that kind of representation, it's interesting, you know, because at the end of the day, that isn't who I am. I'm it's part of my identity, but like, I'm so much more than just that. And I think that for the longest time, I was kind of put in a box in a way that I couldn't control and having a glitz and glam image of like what it would have been for me to represent my community. It was so different, you know. And good experiences and bad experiences have kind of showed me what it means and it comes from yourself, you know.

你不能指望别人理解你想要什么，也不能指望别人替你发声。即使困难重重，你也必须为自己争取，明白吗？这就是为什么我认为在时尚界做个外向的人是天大的福气。因为说到底，当你退一步看，这终究是份工作。而我热爱我的工作。

You can't trust other people to understand what you want and you can't trust other people to give you that voice. You have to take it for yourself even when it's difficult, you know. And that's why I think being an extrovert in fashion is a very big blessing because Yeah. At the end of the day, when you take a step back, it's a job, you know. And I love what I do.

这是份了不起的工作，美妙又充满艺术性，还能结识杰出人物。但它终究是份工作，所以你不能改变自己的说话方式或行为举止——而人们非常看重这种真实性。

It's an amazing job and it's a beautiful job and it's artistic and you get to meet amazing people, you know, but it's still a job, you know. So you can't change the way that you speak or change the way that you act and I think people value that so much.

没错。保持私密与分隔很重要，不必把所有都奉献给事业——或者说工作生活。为自己保留些东西非常必要，完全同意。

Yeah. It's true and it's it's important to be able to keep things private and separate and not give everything to not necessarily a cause but just like your working life otherwise well, it's just important to keep other things back for yourself and Totally.

完全同意。所以我曾尝试学小号——哦真的？我是说理论上尝试过，查过教学视频。但太贵了，买把像样的要上千美元

Totally. That's why I tried to learn the trumpet but Oh, really? I mean, I tried in theory. I'd like looked up videos but it's expensive. It's like a thousand dollars to get

确实不容易。我试过一次，感觉腮帮子都要掉下来了，对吧？

a nice trumpet. It's the difficult thing. I tried that once and it's like your cheeks feel like they're gonna fall off, don't they?

那你坚持下来了吗？应该挺不错吧。

Did you do it though? It was good.

没有。我尝试了其他事情。不过确实。

No. I didn't. I did other things. But Yeah.

昨天我在伦敦田野偶遇了一个人。是个刚从乐队练习回来的女孩，她在学小提琴，我就问，宝贝你在学什么呀？随便聊聊。她说小提琴。我说，哦，我尝试学过小号。

I ran into someone yesterday in London Fields. And it was this, girl who came from band practice and I was like, she was learning the violin and I was like, oh babe, like, what are you learning? Whatever. And she's like, violin. I was like, oh, I tried to learn the trumpet.

她说，没人他妈想学小号。两年前我就放弃了。我说，哦。她还在上学。我说，我在工作。

She goes, no one wants to learn the fucking trumpet. Two years ago, I stopped it. I'm like, oh. She was in like school. I was like, work.

天啊，小提琴简直是世上最难的东西。我懂。

God, like the violin is the hardest thing on earth. I know.

我当时就觉得，哇，你真是厉害。所以去他妈的小号吧。

I was kind of like, wow. You're really sick for that. So fuck the trumpet.

直接挑战小提琴。直捣黄龙。不可能。这两样最难的乐器，虽然什么都很难但尝试困难事物终究是好的，因为突然掌握它们时会带来无与伦比的成就感。我觉得

Let's go violin. Straight to the source. No way. The two hardest instruments out there, it's like everything's quite difficult but it's it's good trying out difficult things anyway because then suddenly being the master of them is such a an enjoyable feeling. I think

能创作音乐本身就是件美妙的事。我在音乐氛围的家庭长大，拥有音乐总是很美好，特别是当你亲手创作或它源自内心某种特别感受时，你懂吧。

it's also just such a beautiful thing to be able to make music. Like, I grew up in a musical household, so it's always really beautiful to have music, especially when you created it or when it came from something special inside, you know.

你做过比大多数人一生都更勇敢刺激的事。你觉得成为榜样是种负担吗？我好奇你是否用搞笑抖音来提醒人们你并非无所不知。

And you've done more courageous and exciting things than most people have done in a lifetime. Do you find being a a kind of a role model is a burden? And and I wondered if you have the jokey TikTok to sort of remind people that you don't have all the answers.

是的。我想这本身就是伴随而来的隐含信息，因为我认为成为榜样根本不是负担。但随着职业生涯取得越多成就，我越发意识到自己对他人产生的影响有多大。这份责任或许并非我最初主动选择的，但我确实想要代表些什么。

Yeah. I mean, I think that was kind of an inherent message that came with it because I don't think it's a burden at all to be a role model. But I guess the more success I've had in my career, the more I realize how much I really do, you know, impact people, you know. And I think it's it's a responsibility that maybe I didn't sign up for at the beginning. Wanted to represent.

我渴望探索未知领域——我热爱时尚，至今依然如此。这是我想从事的事业，我希望以真实自我的姿态骄傲张扬地去做。但必须提醒行业和观众：成为任何群体的象征都极其困难，我只是社群中微小的一部分。跨性别者有着无数种存在形态，能代表这种多样性很美，但也要记住我远不能完全代表我的社群或那些激励过我的人，因为每个人都有独特故事。我在网络展现幽默的天赋很特别，因为这无意中传递了一个信息：我们都在成长过程中。

I wanted to be there to, you know, kind of go through the uncharted and like I loved fashion and I still love fashion. It's something that I wanted to do and I wanted to be someone who was able to do it being myself and being proud and loud about being myself. But I think it's definitely important to remind the industry and the people that are watching and whatever that like, so it's so hard to be a token of anything, you know, being I'm just a part of the community, a small part, you know. There's so many different variations of, you know, being trans and I think it's such a beautiful thing to be able to represent, but it's also important to remember that like, I'm not at all a true representation of, you know, my community or, you know, who inspired me when I began, you know, because everyone has different stories. So I think that me having the ability to be funny online, it's really special because it does kind of have that message, I guess, like unintentionally about, you know, reminding people that we all are learning, you know.

没错。你太擅长了，拥有惊人的表演才华。那些你构思出来 parody（戏仿）、satirize（讽刺）和制造笑点的创意，简直绝妙。

Yeah. You're so good at it. You have such an brilliant acting ability. Mean, the things that you come up with to parody and satirize and just be funny. I mean, it's ingenious.

看你塑造这些角色时的自由状态真是享受，太精彩了。这种天赋是与生俱来的吗？我特别喜欢其中透露的讯息：别忘了，本质上我还是个孩子呢。

It's it's It's really enjoyed watching these kind of characterizations you did and how free you are. Mean, it's just so good. Love it. Have you have you always been able to do that because it's such talent and also I love that it's like, hey, remember, you know, I'm just I'm a kid. You know?

对。我父亲是喜剧之王，我们幽默感一脉相承。成长环境虽不算喜剧世家，但绝对充满喜剧元素——他最爱《蒙提·派森的飞行马戏团》。

Yeah. I mean, my dad's a comedy king. He's always had the same humor as me. So I grew up around a lot of I mean, not comedy, but I guess comedy definitely. And like, I mean, his favorite show was Monty Python's Flying Circus.

最近他提起往事时，我发现自己确实继承了那种滑稽喜剧风格。记得他收藏了好多海报，虽然记不清具体内容，但那个走路姿势...你有印象吗？

I feel like looking at the way he like told me something recently about it. And like, I definitely feel like I mirror that kind of comedy where it's like Yeah. It's like goofy. Like, I remember he had all these posters of like, I don't remember what it is, but like the walk. Do you remember this?

完全记得。那个拎公文包的家伙，他们...

Totally. The guy with the briefcase, they

走路姿势一直很奇怪。别这样。

always walked weird. Don't please.

宝贝，这就是我所能给予的。我意识到自己就像在演绎《Thorn Flying Circus》里的怪物，虽然是无意的，但喜剧的本质就植根于此——它体现在你的个性里，体现在你的举止中。我想我爸爸，还有我妈妈，我们全家都很有幽默感，但我爸爸让我明白，这就是喜剧，这就是搞笑。它源自你如何展现自己。

Babe, that is what I give. I realized like I'm really giving Monster By Thorn Flying Circus and like, it's unintentional, but like, go down to the root of comedy, like it comes in your persona, it comes in way you carry yourself. And I think my my dad and I mean, my mom, my whole family, they were always really funny, but my dad for me always reminded me that like, that's what comedy is. That's what being funny is. It comes from how you carry yourself.

不仅仅在于你说什么，懂吗？

It's not just about what you say, you know.

是啊。看你的TikTok时，我想到了《蒙提·派森》和爱。天啊。我是说，美国人能领悟这种风格挺罕见的，但你完全掌握了那种英国人特有的无政府主义式荒诞。

Yeah. I mean, when I was watching your TikToks, I thought about Monty Python and Love. Oh, God. I mean, I thought I it's it's quite unusual for an American person to be able to take that for, you know, it's like you you got it. You got all the strange anarchic things that seem particular to English people.

就像你把它移植到了新媒介上，还玩出了新高度。对，很有创造力。

It's like you've just taken it into a different medium and on a different level. Yeah. Inventive.

我觉得上辈子我肯定是南伦敦人，亲爱的。没错，我骨子里就是个嬉皮士。

I think in another life I was from South London, babes. Yeah. I think I'm a broccoli brother heart.

你本可以成为布罗姆利帮的一员。那里孕育了大卫·鲍伊、苏西·凯夫这些朋克时代的传奇人物。完全可能。对了，你还出现在查理XCX的360度音乐录影带里，和朱莉娅·福克斯、克洛伊·塞文一起。

You could have been in the Bromley contingent. That's where all the, like, David Bowie and Susie Cave and all these kind of amazing people in the punk days. They all came from this small South London place. Totally. And you featured in in Charlie x c x's three sixty music video with Julia Fox and Chloe Svenin.

嗯。那看起来像是某种幻想中女孩的梦想，我很好奇和城里最受欢迎的女孩们一起工作是什么感觉。

Mhmm. That looked like a sort of fantasy girl's dream and I I wondered what it was like working with the most popular girls in town.

我是说，简直太棒了。我从小就是Charlie的粉丝，能见到她真是太神奇了，而且她也知道我，还是我的粉丝，这感觉太美妙了。Chloe也是。这些女孩们都非常真实，我觉得正是这种真实让她们如此酷，她们没有那种遥不可及的感觉。当然，她们确实光彩照人，我们永远无法成为Chloe Sevigny、Julia Fox或Charlie x c x那样的存在。

I mean, was fabulous. I've been a fan of Charlie for as long as I can remember and it's amazing that I got to, you know, meet her and she also knew of me and was a fan of me which was so beautiful. And same with Chloe. I mean, of those girls are so they're so real and I think that's what makes them so cool is that they don't have that unattainability. And obviously, like they're fabulous and cunt and like, we could never be Chloe Sevigny or Julia Fox or Charlie x c x.

但同时，她们提醒我们可以做自己，这几乎同样美丽，甚至更美。对我来说，正是这种共鸣让我感觉与这些女孩紧密相连——我仿佛成为了其中一员，仅仅因为我是我自己，而不是因为我有多酷、拥有什么包包，你懂我意思吗？在时尚界，很多人容易陷入那种肤浅的层面，仿佛我们被赞美是因为工作、社交圈或私生活。

But at the same time, it's like they remind us that we can be ourselves which is almost just as beautiful. If not just as beautiful. And I think that that for me was what made me feel so connected with these girls was that like I almost felt a part of it because I was myself. Not because I was cool or I had this bag or I was you know what I mean? Which a lot of people and at least in the fashion industry like, it can get kind of to that level of shallowness where I feel like we're being celebrated for being cool by the work that we do or who we hang out with or who we fuck.

但说到底，这些都不重要。重要的是你是什么样的人，你珍视什么，而自我珍视是最振聋发聩的品质，明白吗？

And it's like, you know, it's not about that at the end of the day. Like, it's about what kind of person you are and what you value and valuing yourself is something that speaks volumes, you know, so.

还有关于才华——视频里每个人都才华横溢。看着你们那样一起玩耍、享受乐趣，同时每个人都天赋异禀...我特别喜欢现代女性这种既顽皮又能完全放得开的特质。

And about talent and everyone in that video was so talented and just watching you all playing together like that and just having fun, but everyone having such a gift, you know, it's I love that aspect of, you know, how modern women are really playful and just can mess about and Totally.

施加这种必须完美的压力，但我们本就不完美。你可以精心伪装亲爱的，但归根结底，我们都会犯错，都需要快乐。

And it'd be a bit messy and it's fine, you know. I think that fashion for so long and like life, everyone wants puts this like pressure for being put together, you know, and we're not put together. You can put up a facade as much as you want babes, but like come down to it. We all make mistakes. We all like to have fun.

我是说，以我的生活为例，我们都喜欢偶尔狂欢。重要的是留出时间承认这点、珍惜这点，并与同样懂得欣赏这种生活方式的人为伍——无论对他们而言这意味着什么。

I mean, can say in my life, we all like to party a little bit, you know. It's important to take time to give note to that and appreciate that and be around people that also appreciate that in whatever way that makes sense for them, you know.

我认为这很重要。你会有害羞的时候吗？

I think it's essential. Do you ever get shy?

我想是的。在某些场合我确实会害羞，但最近不知怎么，过去让我害羞的事情现在不再让我害羞了。记得我最后一次真正害羞是在一次红毯上，我得采访妮可·基德曼和扎克·埃夫隆。扎克·埃夫隆是我童年的暗恋对象，妮可·基德曼则是我儿时的偶像。所以那次我相当紧张。

I would say so. I definitely get shy in certain situations, but I don't know recently, the things that have made me shy in the past don't make me shy anymore. I mean, I remember the last time I was really shy, it was this red carpet where I had to interview Nicole Kidman, Zac Efron. And Zac Efron was my childhood crush and Nicole Kidman was my childhood icon. So that was something that I was quite jittered about.

但其实一切都很顺利。采访顺利完成，我也没有紧张。几周前我第一次参加Met Gala时，原以为会是个压力山大、令人恐惧的经历，但感觉就像普通的一天，完全出乎意料。本以为会紧张得要命，结果却异常轻松。

And it really was fine. I mean, everything was went smoothly and I finished that and wasn't nervous. And so I did the Met Gala couple weeks ago for the first time and I thought it was gonna be such a stressful and scary experience and I I really felt like it was just another day almost, which like I didn't expect, you know. I thought it was gonna be a big deal and I was gonna be nervous and whatever, but like, I don't know. It's really chill.

刻薄

Mean

你那天的造型惊艳极了。

You had an amazing outfit.

谢谢夸奖。

So Thank you.

你看起来完美无瑕，在活动现场见到你真是令人愉悦。Met Gala上每个人的造型都相当惊艳。

You just looked like so perfectly, you know, it was a joy to see you actually there. Everyone looked pretty amazing for that Met Gala.

但那太棒了。而且能有一套好行头也很不错，因为我觉得，我是说，当大都会艺术博物馆慈善晚宴那天到来时，你从早上九点就开始为晚上九点的活动做准备，至少可以说一切都已定好。发型、妆容等等都已确定，到了那一刻，宝贝，你只需要起床就行。是的。

But It was fabulous. And it was also nice to have a good outfit because I think it, I mean, at the end of the day, when the Met Gala day comes and you start getting ready at nine in the morning for something and nine at night, like Yeah. At least you can say everything's decided. The hair and makeup and everything is decided which is like, at that point babes, all you have to do is wake up. Yeah.

这点我能做到。可能会有点晚，但我能做到。

Which I can do. A little bit late, but I can do it.

据我估计，你穿的是海德·艾克曼在巴黎汤姆·福特首秀上的顶级礼服。我当时在场，坐在凯特·摩丝和达芙妮·吉尼斯中间，我们都迷上了那条淡黄色、有镂空和高开衩的裙子，开衩直抵臀部，还有你走路的姿态。我很好奇你当时走路时在想什么？

And you wore, in my estimation, the top dress in Heider Ackerman's Tom Ford show, debut show in Paris. And I was there, I was sitting between Kate Moss and Daphne Guinness and we were all obsessed with that pale yellow dress with the cutout and the slit, the leg slit right up to the hip and and the way you walked. And I wondered what you were what did what were you thinking about when you were walking?

走那场秀时感觉很棒，因为造型师雅各布和海德·艾克曼都是非常坦诚的人，他们对自己想要的效果非常明确。前一天试装时，我走得像个淑女一样端庄。但我觉得这个系列特别需要展现服装本身，不是沉闷的，而是要有一种真实感——一个端庄女性穿那样的裙子可能无法传递的感觉。所以他们让我肩膀前倾，这在我的时尚生涯中从未被要求过。通常都是挺胸抬头之类的。

Well, when I was walking that show, it was really nice because Jacob the stylist and Heider Ackerman, like, they're they're very honest people and they're really clear about what they want, you know. And I did the fitting the day before and I was walking very poised like a lady. And I think for this collection specifically, he wanted it to be about the clothing almost not dreary, but have an essence of realness that I think a poised woman wearing a dress like that, you know, wouldn't have carried. So they told me to slouch my shoulders forward, which I've never been told ever in my fashion career. Everyone is always like like shoulders up, head back, whatever.

他让我肩膀前倾并低头。所以我试图体现那种近乎反派但强大、自信、性感的氛围，不同于我以前看的汤姆·福特秀场风格。那场秀非常美且震撼，我觉得自己那身造型也是全场最佳。所以很特别，我想展示它、诠释它。听说我做到了。

And he told me to put my shoulders forward and look down, you know. And so I was just trying to embody that that vibe of almost like, not a villain, but like powerful and confident and sexy, but not in the way that the Tom Ford shows that I used to watch were, you know, which was it was really beautiful and it was impactful and I think I think I had the best look for that show too. So it was really special. I wanted to show it off and sell it. I heard I heard that I did.

所以

So

确实做到了。那是个真正的经典时刻——你穿着那条裙子出场。你描述的身体语言很有趣，因为那种姿态完全令人着迷。

You did. You did. It was a real moment. You coming out in that dress. It's interesting you describing what you did with your body because you just had this it was totally compelling.

它就像一块磁铁，将所有目光聚集在一起，却又如此低调，尽管耀眼夺目。那感觉就像真正的流星般转瞬即逝。谢谢你。如同外太空的爆炸。我深爱

It's like a magnet that brought all the attention together and but it was so low key in spite of being so dazzling. It was it was real kind of meteoric. Thank you. Explosion in outer space. Was I love

这个描述。作为模特，我认为关键是要懂得在何时何地释放特定能量，因为互联网偏爱某种台步风格。网络喜欢人们展现性感、嬉皮、自信的模样，但有些系列、设计师和场合需要收敛，否则会喧宾夺主——毕竟我们的本职是销售服装并享受这个过程。对我来说，我喜欢带点表演性质。我认为重要的是向在场所有人提问：你们想要什么？

that description. Something important I think as a model too to know where and when to give certain energies, you know, because the internet loves a certain type of walk. The internet loves when someone's cunt and hippie and confident and sexy, but like there are certain collections and designers and moments that like it almost takes away from the clothing and ultimately the job is to sell the clothing and to enjoy doing it. And like, for me, I like to have a little act. I think it's important to ask questions to everybody there saying, what do you what do you want?

你感受如何？这个系列对你意味着什么？要知道，早在有资格提问前我就是这种人。我会直接问：这个系列的核心是什么？设计灵感来自哪里？

How do you feel? What does this collection mean to you? You know, I've always been that person even before I had a reason to ask anybody any questions. I was like, look, what is this collection mean to you? What is the what is the references?

故事线是什么？这能帮我确定角色塑造方向。那些资深超模如玛丽亚·卡拉都强调过：关键在于具备内在的变形能力。这种能力能让你从普通模特蜕变为时尚载体，这才是本质区别。

What's the story? And that gives me an idea of what characters to give, you know? And it's important to do that and I I mean, all of the models who've been doing it forever, know, Maria Carla talk about this. It's like Yeah. It's important to have the ability to shape shift within, you know, and it's something that can take you from being a model to being a vessel for someone's fashion, you know, which is the difference for sure.

同时要提醒人们关注内在人格，毕竟有趣的终究是人本身。服装之所以迷人，是因为穿着者散发的魅力。比如你迷恋某人时，会因衣着糟糕就失去兴趣吗？绝不会。

Also to remind people of the person within because in the end, it's people who are interesting. Right. And clothes are, you know, clothes are interesting when that person is somehow radiating something Exactly. You fancy someone don't like what they're wearing, does it kill your attraction to them? Not at all.

我曾与某些人有过合作经历

I've done some done some things with

那些衣品堪称灾难的人。但说实话，如果符合他们的气质，有时我会想：亲爱的这搭配太可怕了，我永远无法想象自己这样穿。但放在你身上就合理。我认为敢于穿丑衣服的自信本身就很性感。

people who have atrocious, atrocious fashion sense. And I think that honestly, if it makes sense for the person, there's sometimes where I'm like, babes, the fit is atrocious, you got on I don't even know. Just something that I could never see myself wearing. You see me putting on a man if you were a mannequin, but it makes sense for you, you know. And I think that if you have the confidence to wear something ugly, that's hot because you're confident.

生活中我们需要更多这样的态度。是的，我们需要更多能自信穿着不那么可爱衣服的人——或者他们觉得可爱但别人可能不这么认为，而他们根本不在乎。我最近就注意到这种现象，刚才还在聊这个。

And we need more of that in life. Yeah. We need more people who are confidently able to wear something that isn't cute, you know. Or they think it's cute, but maybe other people don't and they know that and they're like, who gives a fuck? And I've noticed this, I was just talking about this earlier.

我特别欣赏英国人的一点是他们穿彩色裤袜。不知道是不是我朋友圈的缘故，我见过太多穿彩色裤袜的时髦女孩了。在纽约——我住在纽约——这里人人都痴迷于The Row那种风格（我也是），但那种不穿裤袜的极简风。当看到穿搭里透出个性时，完全是另一种境界，这不仅仅是靠衣服伪装自己。

What I love about people in The UK is they wear colorful tights. I don't know if it's just my friend group or the people that I've been around, but it's like, I've seen so many fab fucking girls in colorful tights. And it's like, I'm in New York, I live in New York and there's just everyone is obsessed with the row, which I am too, but like the row with no tights, you know. And like, it's a different ballgame when you see that little bit of character come into it, you know. It's not just wearing clothes to disguise yourself.

这是用服装来表达自我。说实话我不常穿裤袜，但别人的穿搭方式让我也想尝试。天啊，我们曾经...（此处断句）

It's wearing clothes to represent yourself, you know. And like, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not a tights girl, but I think that the way that people wear it makes me wanna be a tights girl, you know. God. I've missed this tights moment because we used

以前也穿彩色裤袜对吧？太棒了。老天，我记得那个叫The Slits的乐队，她们总穿彩色裤袜配黑色渔网袜。有次我还看到她们在袜子上缝了迷你木制茶杯茶壶之类的东西，简直酷毙了。这才是...

to wear colorful tights back Yeah, in the it's so good. Oh God, I remember that band, the slits, they used to wear these colorful tights with black fishnets over. And then sometimes they used to I remember one time seeing them, they'd sewn these tiny little wooden cups and teapots and things It onto the was it was just the coolest thing ever. That's the type

我们需要的时尚——能代表个人特质的，懂吗？代表你这个人。而不是...

of fashion that we need more of is like representation, you know? Represents you as a person. It's not

这太棒了，因为就像...

just It great for that because it was just so like, you

你懂我意思吗？把茶杯图案印在打底裤上居然能成立。太绝了是不是？以前还能买到这种迷你茶具...

know I mean, teacup on a fucking legging work. It's so good, isn't it? There were these titchy little tea sets that you could get

然后它们就遍布他们的紧身衣上。这简直太棒了，看起来就是充满了，像是，

and then there they were all over their tights. It's just a brilliant seems just it was so full of, like,

它充满了

it was so full

某种轻蔑。就像是的，如果我把茶杯缝在我的打字机上，我就能

of contempt in a way. It's like Yeah. If I sew a teacup to my type, I can

做到。我会把它做成一个缝纫帽。是的，我现在有灵感了。

do that. I'll make it a sewing cap to this. Yes. I'm inspired now.

爱人送给你最好的礼物是什么？因为你有这么好的眼光，要找到能完全打动你的东西一定很难。我是说，

What's the best present a lover's ever given you? Because you've got you've got such a great eye. It must be quite hard to find something to totally disarm you. I mean,

我觉得惊喜总能打动我。具体是什么东西并不重要。我是说，是的，我觉得能让我惊讶的东西，你知道，足够体贴以至于让我有点措手不及的礼物总是好的。我在想一个例子，但我妈妈总是很擅长送体贴的礼物。

I think a surprise is always something that disarms me. It doesn't quite matter what the item is. I mean yeah, I think something that surprises me, you know, something that's thoughtful enough that it kind of gets me not confused, but a little bit jostled. I think that that's always a good gift, you know. I'm trying to think of an example, but my mom is always really good with thoughtful gifts.

你知道，我记得我一直有行李箱超重的问题，这只是一个例子，但她给我买了一个行李箱秤，那简直是最棒的礼物。老实说，我打开的时候就想，等等宝贝，这要改变我的生活了。你知道，就是这些她想到的小事，当有人花足够的时间让你打开礼物时感到‘哇，这对我个人来说真的有意义’，这种感觉太美好了。虽然我也想说有人送我柏金包会很棒，但可能那对我来说也有意义。

Know, she I think I remember having a constant problem with overweight suitcases and this is just a example, but she got me a scale for my suitcase and that was like the fabbest fucking gift. Honestly, I was like, I opened up and I was like, wait babe, this is gonna change my fucking life. You know, and it's those little things that she thought about and it's so beautiful when someone puts enough time into that where you open it up and you're like, wow, this actually means something to me personally. You know, because like I would love to say someone got me a Birkin and that was fabulous. But like, I mean, maybe it would mean something to me.

但我觉得这本身对我来说就像是一个铂金包的存在，你知道的，一个行李箱的衡量标准。所以感谢妈妈给我买了铂金包。

But I think that in itself was like that was the same as a Birkin, you know, for me. A scale for a suitcase. So shout out to mom for getting me my Birkin.

那你是在哪里得到那个铂金包的？

Where did so you've got a Birkin there.

我确实得到了一个铂金包。

I did get a Birkin.

那是你自己送给自己的礼物吗？

And that was a present from you to you?

是的。没错。我上一季参加了爱马仕的秀，那是我第一次与爱马仕合作，对我来说能在秀场上拥有一个铂金包是件大事。我走进秀场时就想，我真的超想要那个该死的铂金包。

It was. Yeah. Yeah. I did the Hermes show last season and it was my first time working with Hermes and it was a big deal for me to have a Birkin at the show, I guess. Like I walked in and was like, I really want the fucking Birkin.

就像，求求让我带着铂金包走秀吧，因为我在网上对这个该死的包简直痴迷。不知道为什么，它在我心中就是奢华的象征。所以我总是想，哦，我就想要这个包。于是我把它背上，他们试图换掉我的 outfit，但我死活不肯放手，造型师过来想从我手里拿走包，我就是不松手。

Like, please let me walk with the Birkin because online I have this obsession with this fucking bag. I don't know why it was just like this, I guess, image of like, fabness. And so I was always like, oh, I just wanna have this bag. And so I put it on. They tried to change my outfit and I wouldn't let go of the bag and the stylist came over and tried to take it away from me and I wouldn't let go of the bag.

他最后说，看来她就是要带着这个包了。所以我确实带着它走了秀，虽然很疯狂，但我很高兴这么做了。我的一个朋友负责创意方向或形象指导，我不太确定具体头衔，但我拼命求了他。

He was like, I guess she's wearing the bag. So so I did. I it was crazy, but I'm happy I did it because I walked the show. And, one of my friends does the creative direction, image direction. I don't quite know what the term is, but, I I begged him.

我恳求留下那个包，他却说不行。他说，宝贝，这是爱马仕，但我可以帮你预约。给我你的号码，我会发消息给你。时装周的最后一天，我收到一条信息，具体内容记不清了，大概是关于圣奥诺雷的。他说，圣奥诺雷店上午11:30，别迟到。

I pleaded to keep the bag and he said, no. He said, baby, is Hermes, but I can get you an appointment. Give me your number and I'll message you. And the last day of fashion week came and I got a message that said, I don't remember what it was the biggest or mess with Saint Honore. He said, Saint Honore 11:30AM, don't be late.

我当时紧张得要命。心想，天啊，就是今天了。这过程特别美好，因为我所有朋友都知道这事。我告诉选角导演和其他人，时装周最后一天别给这些女孩安排工作。大家都要来爱马仕店，我们要一起见证这一刻。

And I was like shitting my fucking pants. I was like, oh my God, this is the time I'm do it. And it was so beautiful because like all of my friends had known about it. And so I told the casting directors and everyone I was like, don't book any of these girls the last day of fashion week. Everyone's coming to Therma store and we're all gonna be there for this moment.

那天正好也是路易威登的秀场日。所以最后只有一个朋友来了。不过亲爱的，没关系。我们度过了非常美好的时光。我进店时外面在下雨，穿着那条常穿的牛仔裤，雨水把裤子都打湿了。

And it was the same day as Louis Vuitton show. So obviously, only one of my friends came. But like, babe, it's fine. We saw it's such a beautiful time and like, I went into the store and it was raining outside and I was wearing these pants. These jeans that I wear all the time and they were it was wet outside.

我走过店铺时，在爱马仕店里留下一串泥脚印。周围全是发型精致的女士，肩上挎着鳄鱼皮铂金包，尖叫着要预约。而我径直走向VIP室接受面试——他们必须对你进行面试才能卖包。她坐下来问我职业、业余爱好、社交圈，各种离谱问题。直到半小时后我才反应过来这是场正式面试，还以为她只是单纯想了解我。

And so I walked through the store and I was leaving a trail of mud and dirt to this like Hermes store and there's all these ladies with blowouts and like Crocodile Birkins on their shoulder screaming for an appointment. I like was walking straight to the VIP suite to get my my interview because it's that kind of fucking thing where they have to interview you. And yeah, she sat down and interviewed me and asked me what I did and what I did in my free time and what I enjoy and who who I hang out with. Like all these crazy questions that I didn't realize until like thirty minutes in that it was a fucking interview. I thought she was just trying to get to know me for some reason.

后来才明白她是在评估是否该把包卖给我。她说要查库存，毕竟时装周期间货品紧张。最后她拿着我想要的包进来时，我想：所有问题我都答对了。

And then I realized she was trying to get to know me to see. She would give me this bag. And then she was like, oh, I'll check. You know, it's fashion week so we're we're on short supply. She came in with the bag that I wanted and I was like, I answered all the questions.

对吧？这真是次美妙的经历，也是给自己的礼物。我这辈子从没花过这么多钱买东西。说实话价格比预期低很多，总听说那些四万、十万美金的包。

Right? And yeah. So it was a really beautiful experience and it was a present to myself because I've never spent that much money on anything in my life. To be granted, like, it's a lot less money than I think I expected it to be. You mean, I mean, I hear all of these crazy like $40,000 purses, $10,000 purses.

虽然没到那个价位，但对我很特别。要是四万美金我也会想办法买。朋友萨莎在场让我很感动，她明白这个时刻对我有多重要。现在终于拥有铂金包了，我可以永远闭嘴不提这事了。

Like, wasn't that, but it was something special to me where I mean, if it was $40,000 I would have found a way if I could. But it was it was just a special experience and it was nice because my friend Sasha was there and like, she she knew, you know, how stupidly important it was for me to have this moment. So it was beautiful. Yeah. I know I got my fucking Birkin and I can shut up about it forever.

太棒了。天啊，这真是个精彩的故事。有趣的是那些最终变得重要的事情。你知道，显然这不是世界和平之类的大事，但它们就是能让你感到踏实、有力量且完全放松的东西。

So good. God, it's such a great story. It's funny the things that do become important. You know that, obviously, it's not world peace or anything, but they're just things that make you feel somehow grounded and powerful and relaxed. Totally.

听起来那正是其中之一。是啊，我是说，我

And that sounds like one of those things. Yeah. I mean, I'm

没那么

not So

被采访的感觉很奇妙，就像你试图搬进达科塔大厦之类的地方住似的，我觉得。

amazing being interviewed as if you're trying to get into live in the Dakota Building or something, I think.

太疯狂了。真的，太疯狂了。我完全没想到会是那种阵仗。我知道弄到《欲望都市》里那款包很难，但没想到他们会问你的朋友是谁、周六晚上干什么这类问题。

It was crazy. Yeah. It was crazy. And I I didn't realize it was that kind of kind of thing ever. I mean, I know that it's difficult to get this bag from Sex and the City, but I didn't know it was the kind of thing that like, they'll ask you like who your friends are and like what you do on a Saturday night.

亲爱的，我当时装得可高雅了。我说我朋友都是些老派人物，周六晚上就喝红酒听爵士乐。他们问：真的吗？我说：当然。

Like, babe, I was acting so fucking classy. Was like, I was like, my friends are all so old. And on Saturday nights, I just drink red wine and listen to jazz music. And they were like, really? And I was like, yeah.

实际上我正和姐妹们泡夜店听Lady Gaga呢——但这招管用。我穿了件高领毛衣，配棕色外套，这根本不是我平时的风格。

Meanwhile, I'm at the club listening to Lady Gaga with my homegirls like, but it worked. I came with the turtleneck which like, it's not very me. A turtleneck in a brown coat.

天哪。我打赌你看起来美极了。

Oh my god. I bet you looked amazing.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我尽力了。我超爱高领毛衣配棕色外套，绝佳组合。你把时尚编辑卡琳·鲁特菲尔德描述为优雅的巅峰，我很好奇她身上哪一点让你如此着迷。

I tried. I love a turtleneck and a brown coat. Such a good combo. And you described the fashion editor, Karine Reutfeld, as being the pinnacle of chic. And I wondered what it is about her that you find so dazzling.

我是说，她

I mean, she

是我接触时尚的引路人。我人生第一场秀是汤姆·福特的，那时他即将淡出个人品牌线。看她操办秀场的方式太美妙了——虽然当时我根本不认识她。我记得有个侧分发型、穿着铅笔裙的女人走进来拿了杯果汁。

was the introduction to fashion for me. My first show I ever did was Tom Ford. I think it was one of his last shows before he stopped being as much part of his line and like, it was so beautiful to see how she did that. I mean, I didn't know who she was. And I remember seeing this woman with a side part in a pencil skirt come in and grab a juice.

我当时就觉得她绝了，跑去问她果汁怎么样。我说'亲爱的果汁好喝吗？'她说'不错'，我又问'我该来一杯吗？'

And I was like, she's fab. Let me ask her how the juice is. So I was like, babe, how's the juice? She's like, it's good. Was like, should I get one?

该选哪款？她简直魅力四射，居然真的和我聊起果汁。我当时就觉得这女人太有范儿了，后来才发现她就是格林·鲁特菲尔德——虽然我对她知之甚少。

Which one should I get? She was fucking fab. She was like chatting it up with me about this juice. And I was just like, this is really a chic woman. And then I come to find out it was Greene Rottfield, which like I didn't know her much about her.

我做了调查，我朋友刚在她家做了采访，她居然睡在真皮床上的睡袋里。这太时髦了，简直时髦炸了。天啊。她还喜欢坐在地上，我也超爱坐地板。

And I did my research and she I mean, like my friend just did an interview for her at her house and she sleeps on a leather bed in a fucking sleeping bag. Like that's so chic. That's so chic. Oh my God. And she loves to sit on the floor, which I love to sit on the floor.

所以我感觉和她有共鸣。但她穿高跟鞋这么坐，懂吗？她只有高跟鞋，我不确定她有没有别的鞋。这不是戏服，但精致到近乎像戏服——尖头高跟鞋、铅笔裙、高级衬衫、大衣。要知道在旧金山，大家穿运动鞋、宽松牛仔裤和拉链外套。这成为我的时尚启蒙，真的太激励人了。

So I kind of am connected with her like Yeah. But she does it in a heel, you know, she only has heels and like, I don't know if she has this. It's it's not a costume though, but it feels like it's almost a costume because she's so pinnacleized, chic, you know, it's a fucking heel, it's a pencil skirt, it's a great shirt, it's a great coat. And like, I mean, where I'm from San Francisco, like it's a it's a sneaker and a baggy jean and like a zip up, you know. So that being my first introduction to fashion, it was like, it's really inspiring.

后来我常遇见她，每次造型都绝杀。完全是为自己打扮，这种态度太时髦了。我太爱了，爱死了。

And since then, I mean, I see her around and it's just like, she's always pulling a fucking look. She is. And she's doing it for her fucking self, which is so chic. I love it. I love it.

人们总说法式女人有特殊气质。看到她你就会惊呼：她完全诠释了那种优雅时髦，还带点朋克感——眼线、绿色眼影、身材比例、细高跟。最绝的是她把这身装扮穿得如此日常，看得人几乎要崩溃，太震撼了。

There's some it's like people go on about French women having this thing. And when you see her, you think, wow. They've she has she just embodies it's so classy and so chic, but she has this sort of punk thing as well, like her eye, you know, the eyeliner and the green eye and just her proportions and the spiky heel and yeah and then she's and then when she's vaguely normal in that type of get up is just like you nearly have a breakdown it's so interesting to see someone just being in their normal life with such a strong, such a powerful kind of

的穿衣风格。完全真实，这才最打动我。这不是角色扮演，懂吗？

way of of dressing. Totally. And it's so authentic to her, which I think is what makes it so shit for me. It's that, again, it's not a costume. You know?

对，根本想象不到。听你朋友说，她回家也不会换装，就那样...

No. There's no you don't imagine that. And clearly not from what your friend said that when she goes home, she changes. She's just like

直接睡真皮床加睡袋！太绝了！她对时髦的执着都延伸到睡袋了。这种精神，我们需要更多这样的人。

She sleeps on a fucking leather bed with a sleeping bag like work. That's fab. That's fab. Like you really she's so dedicated to the chicness that she'll pull out a sleeping bag. Like this is we need we need more of this.

我们需要这个。

We need We need this.

哦，天啊。你身上和由内而外都散发着如此耀眼的光芒，你是如此美丽，我想知道你是否有什么技巧可以让自己不那么显眼。

Oh, God. You've got so much light shining on you and from you as well and I and you're so beautiful and I wondered if you have a technique that where you that you use to switch off and be less visible.

我觉得这其实挺简单的，关键在于你选择的生活方式。我住在布鲁克林的一个区域，除非我愿意，否则根本不会遇到任何人。所以对我来说这是个距离问题。在纽约，我可以去苏豪区穿迷你裙和高跟鞋，成为焦点；或者就穿牛仔裤和运动鞋低调出行。

I mean, I think it's it's kind of easy. It's really just about the life that you live, you know. For me, I live in a part of Brooklyn that I'm not gonna see anyone unless I want to, you know. So it's a proximity thing for me. I mean, I know I could go for in New York terms, could go to Soho and it would be a kiki and I could wear like a mini skirt and a heel in Soho and like, be super visible or I just wear like, jeans and sneakers.

我喜欢滑板——虽然没多少人知道这事，但在布鲁克林我经常和朋友们一起玩。说经常可能有点夸张，但偶尔滑行时那种自由感太美妙了。穿着连帽衫玩滑板在那里太常见了，根本不会引人注目。物理上的距离很重要，但心理上更需要独处和自我关爱。当我需要从被关注中抽离时，这就是我的方式。

And I like to skateboard, which is something not a lot of people know, but like I do it a lot in Brooklyn and like just go around with my friends. And I wouldn't say a lot, that's a stretch, but like sometimes and it's really freeing and it's so beautiful because like, I mean, someone in a hoodie on a skateboard is so common there that like no one takes a second glance, you know? So in terms of physical, you know, separation, I think that's important. But like, mentally, it's also just about spending time with yourself and loving yourself. And I think that that's what I do when I really need to distance myself from being seen, you know, it's like Yeah.

被自己看见——听起来很深刻，但这就是真实感受。

Be seen by myself, which sounds so deep, but it's real, you know.

我几乎说不出话来，真的太佩服了。

I'm just sort of almost speechless. I'm so impressed.

我的经纪人简直恨死这样了。而且我身高六英尺多——具体数字我就不说了，这辈子跟不同人说的都不一样。但没错，我就像棵该死的树，摔倒后要花整整五秒才能爬起来。

My agents fucking hate it. And also I'm like six foot whatever. I'm not gonna say the number because I've told people different numbers my whole life. But, yeah, I'm like a fucking tree. Like if I hit off rock, like takes a good five seconds.

是啊。你知道，这肯定是个有趣的景象，我可以想象。但我超爱这种感觉。特别是冲下坡时，那种自由感难以言喻。

Yeah. You know, so it's an interesting sight for sure I can assume. But I love it. It's so freeing especially when you're going down a hill. I don't know.

我热爱这种交通方式。太棒了。有种童真感——甚至不知道该怎么形容这个词——但我感觉自己像个孩子。已经很久没有这种起床就迫不及待想做点什么的冲动了，不是参加活动，也不是刷手机或社交。当我开始玩滑板时，那种感觉简直不可思议。

I love a mode of transportation. It's fab. And it's like there's a sense of childness or child I don't even know what the word is, but I feel like a child. Like I haven't been excited to get up out of bed and like do something besides an event or whatever or something that involves phone or society like in so long. And so when I got into skateboarding, it was like it was so amazing.

夏天早晨醒来时，我就想套上衣服立刻去他妈的滑板。那种自由感和独立性，你懂吧。

I want I woke up in the morning during summer and was like, I just wanna put on my clothes and go fucking skateboarding, you know. It's really freeing and it's so independent, you know.

确实。听起来是这样。挺迷人的。我前不久在飞机上看了托尼·霍克的纪录片，关于他整个职业生涯的轨迹。你看过吗？

It's Yeah. It seems like that. I mean, seems fascinating. I watched a documentary about Tony Hawkes on the plane not that long ago. Like, his whole trajectory and then did did you see that?

我没看过。不过听起来很有意思。

I didn't see it. No. That's really interesting.

嗯，我很想看看。

Yeah. I would love to.

我是说...他经历了完整的人生起伏。就在你以为纪录片要结束时，他生命的全新篇章又开始了。顺便说，《名利场》前主编格雷顿·卡特前几天还和我聊，他认为未来的终极奢侈品会是隐私权——彻底远离社交媒体。

I mean Yeah. He goes through a whole thing. And just when you think it's the end of the the film, this whole other part of his life begins. And anyway, in fact, Graydon Carter, was the editor of Vanity Fair for twenty five years, and he was talking to me the other day about how he thinks that the ultimate luxury in the future will be privacy and no social media presence. Totally.

是的，我很好奇，因为你在社交媒体和TikTok上表现得如此出色。看着这些小短剧和情景剧，它们仿佛可以来自任何时代，既引人入胜又富有教育意义，简直是微观版的莎士比亚。哦，谢谢。所以我在想，如果没有这些，你会是什么样子。

Yeah, I was wondering because you're so brilliant at social media and TikTok. It's like literally watching these little plays and these skits and they could come from any era. They're so intensely interesting and informing and it's like micro Shakespeare. It's just Oh, thank you. So so wondered if you could imagine being without that.

那会是什么感觉？我是说，

What would it be like? I mean,

对我来说，这更像是一种自我表达的方式，展示真实的自己，展现个性，就像女孩们常说的那样。我觉得即使没有它，情况也会一样，我会找到其他方式。特别是在我职业生涯初期，它非常重要，因为作为一名模特刚起步时，你会被赋予太多规则，人们告诉你该说什么、穿什么等等，而这是我唯一能自己掌控的事情。

I think it's for me just a a mode of self, like showing myself, showing my personality, you know, feeling my as the girls say. And I think that without it, it would be the same. I would find another mode. I think it's just like, for me, especially at the beginning of my career, it was so important because, you know, when you start as a model, especially you're given so many rules and people tell you what you should and shouldn't be saying or wearing or whatever and that was one thing that I had control over for myself, you know. Right.

总有人对我说，你应该删掉它，人们喜欢神秘的女孩。我他妈太庆幸没听他们的，因为现在这反而成了我的标志——‘天啊，她是唯一玩TikTok的女孩’，‘唯一这么做的女孩’。就像他们当初说我是‘唯一不神秘的婊子’，而现在呢？现在你们可喜欢了。

And people always told me like, you know, you should delete it. People love a mysterious girl. So fucking happy I didn't because that's something that now it's like, oh my God. Like she's the only girl that has a TikTok or whatever. The only girl that does this and it's like, Yahweh told me is the only bitch that isn't mysterious and now look, now you love.

拥有这样的发声渠道并坚持自己的信念对我来说很重要。是的，这算是一种人格化的体现。但话说回来，即使没有它，我也完全没问题，因为我依然会保持那种‘为自己、由自己来展现自我’的初衷。

And it's just like it's important to have a voice like that and stand on what you believe in for me. Yeah. That's kind of a personification of that. But again, I without that, it would be completely fine because I would have that same sense of, you know, want to portray myself for myself by myself, you know.

没错。不得不说你看起来拥有无限的应变能力。谢谢夸奖。你甚至能成为数学家——我的意思是，你似乎掌握着丰富的手段，而且我很喜欢你使用的语言风格，如何将某些词汇吸收成为你的个人特色，比如‘婊子’这种词你是怎么选用的？

Yeah. You seem infinitely resourceful I must say. Thank you. As you could become a mathematician. I mean, it seems like you have a lot at your at your disposition and and I love the language you use as well how you take certain things and then they just become part of your your kind of vernacular and how do you choose like cunts one of them?

我喜欢这样。

I like that.

我是说，这绝对是我的圈子，你知道，跨性别女性有非常独特的用语风格。它很大程度上源自黑人方言。我觉得这基本就是我成长过程中所处的社群环境，在那里我学会说话，学会做自己。所以，我的表达方式主要来源于此，当然也包括和朋友们之间的内部笑话。特别是在伦敦生活后，这里的俚语简直太绝了。

I mean, it's definitely my community, you know, trans women have such a specific vernacular. It's very heavily derived from like black vernacular as well. I think that that was kind of the community that I was surrounded by when I was growing up and learning how to speak and learning how to be myself. So, I mean, it kind of it's it mostly comes from that, but then also, I mean, inside jokes with friends are things, you know. Especially since I've been in London, like the fucking slang here is so fab.

没错。比如我发现你们这儿把阴道叫作'巫师袖管'。

Yeah. Like I found out you guys call vaginas with wizard sleeves.

噢，我从没听过这种说法。

Oh, I've never heard that.

巫师袖管，太绝了。不知道谁想出来的，我听到时整个人都愣住了——这不就是魔法蜜穴吗宝贝？简直绝了。

A wizard sleeve, it's fab. I don't know. I heard this and I was like, wait. Like, it is a magical pussy, babe. Like, yes.

又美又魔幻，这就是巫师袖管啊亲爱的。太传神了。

It's beautiful. It's magical. It's a wizard sleeve, babe. Like, yes. That's so good.

最近我逢人就夸'你可是巫师袖管呢宝贝'。你看，我正在努力传承英国俚语的瑰宝。

And that recently has been my new guy. Like, it's like, oh, babe, you are wizard sleeve. Like, you know. So I'm I'm trying to carry carry on, you know, the legacy of The UK slang.

太有意思了。还有别的吗？我从没听过这个。天啊Minj，我爱死Minj了。

It's so good. Have you Is there anything else? I've never heard that one. Mean, Minj. I love Minj.

就像我在TikTok上看到的那些Bromney女孩们的新闻，因为那基本就是我TikTok的内容。英国喜剧演员们也是如此，他们太他妈搞笑了，而且直言不讳。我喜欢欧洲喜剧的地方就在于每个人都一本正经地搞笑。而在美国，喜剧几乎总是傻乎乎的。

It's like the news all the Bromney girls I'm seeing on TikTok because that's mostly what my TikTok is. It's like The UK comedians because they're so fucking funny and they're so blunt about it. What I love about European comedy is that everyone's so dead ass. Yeah. Whereas like in The US, it's almost goofy.

就像人们在表现...我也说不清楚。但在英国，他们就是能一本正经地干些蠢事，让你分不清是该笑他们还是和他们一起笑。当然，我是在和他们一起笑，因为是他们在讲笑话。但怎么说呢，就是很有趣。

Like people are putting like it's like, like I don't know. But in the The UK, it's like, there's so matter of fact with the fact that they're being fucking stupid that it's like, don't know if I'm laughing at you or with you but like Yeah. That's well, obviously I'm laughing with you because you're making the joke. But I don't know. It's it's funny.

不过说真的，Bromney那些姑娘们简直杀疯了，你们太棒了。哦对了，还有第八个。

But yeah, the Bromney the Bromney slayings babe like, you girls ate. Oh. Eight. That's another one.

很高兴我们能为你提供些有用的素材。非常感谢你能来参加《时尚Urosus》节目。

Well, I'm glad I'm glad we're supplying you with some material that's useful to you. And and thank you so much for coming and being on Fashion Urosus.

这次访谈太愉快了，真是场美妙的对话。我感觉很平静。这张沙发太棒了，能感受到所有来过这里的人的能量，还有你的能量。

It's been so enjoyable. Such a beautiful conversation. I feel at peace. This couch is fabulous. Feel the energy of all the people that have been here and the energy of you.

非常感激今天能来到这里。哦，我也是。

So so grateful to have been here today. Oh, me too.

有你在这里真是太好了

It's it's wonderful to have you there taking up

整个沙发？

the The whole whole couch?

是的，这就是我想要的。

Yeah. That's what I want.