时尚神经症与乔纳森·安德森

这里是普希金工业，我是乔纳森·戈德斯坦，《重量级》节目回归了。新一季规模空前。更大的希望？

From Pushkin Industries, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and heavyweight is back. The new season is bigger than ever. Bigger hopes?

我一直在等待这一刻，当他开口说：妈妈，我明白了，对不起。

I keep waiting for this moment when he says, mom, I get it. I'm sorry.

更宏大的梦想。汤姆·汉克斯想与你见面。这是个真实的机会。以及更深刻的心碎。

Bigger dreams. Tom Hanks wants to meet with you. This is a real chance. And bigger heartbreaks.

我以为那会是我的电影时刻。或许他还会在我耳边低语：我一直深爱着你。

I thought it would be my movie moment. And maybe he would even whisper in my ear. I've always been in love with you.

请在Apple播客上收听《重量级》最新剧集。

Check out new episodes of heavyweight on Apple Podcasts.

嗨，请进。欢迎来到《时尚神经症》，乔纳森·安德森。能告诉我你今天穿什么以及为什么选择这身衣服吗？

Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, Jonathan Anderson. Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these clothes?

是的。对我来说，日常穿搭通常就是搭配一条牛仔裤，像制服一样。我喜欢这种统一感，所以早上最终总要重复穿类似的衣服。

Yeah. It's everything usually is teamed with, like, a kind of jean usually for me. I'm I like a uniform, so it has to be something repetitive ultimately in the morning.

因为你为别人设计的造型美丽浪漫，但自己的穿着却比你的设计保守许多。这是刻意为之的区别吗？

Because you dress people in these beautiful, quite romantic looks, but how you dress yourself is quite locked down compared to your designs. And is this a deliberate distinction?

所以我觉得自己需要像一张空白画布，最终才能更好地将创意投射到他人身上。

So I don't know. I feel like I need to be some sort of, like, blank canvas to project onto other people ultimately, I think.

确实很有道理。我也一直痴迷于制服理念，虽然我们学校没有。在这个容器里——时尚界充满混乱与狂热，你必须有个地方来压制它。

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I mean, I've I've always been obsessed with a uniform. We didn't have one at my school, but this container. And there is so much kind of, you know, chaos and hysteria in fashion that you have to have somewhere to keep it down.

我好奇的是，你第一次穿到让你感觉与众不同的衣服是什么时候？那种让你意识到服装力量的时刻，当时你多大？

And I wondered when did you first wear something that made you feel different, like attached you to the feeling that clothes had power? How old were you?

大概是在我十三四岁时。记得贝尔法斯特没有大品牌店，只有类似TK Maxx这样的折扣店，专门卖滞销服装。有次和母亲去那里，买了条让·保罗·高缇耶风格的疯狂牛仔裤——上面还印着牛仔裤图案，还配了件橙色霓虹夹克。我一直迷恋他，因为学校图书馆有本小册子记录着他的设计史。

I think I must have been probably in my early teens, I remember I there wasn't really big brand stores in Belfast. It was more kind of TK Maxx, which was like kind of where all the kind of clothing that didn't sell in stores went to. And I remember going with my mother there and buying, like, some crazy sort of, like, Jean Paul Gauthier kind of denim jeans. I think they were jeans with jeans printed on it, and there was then a kinda orange neon jacket. And I'd always been kind of obsessed by him because I in school, there was a this little tiny book in the library that had, like, you know, like, the history of Jean Paul Gautier.

有一本是关于薇薇安·韦斯特伍德的，还有一本是关于杜嘉班纳的。我了解这些书，它们就像是某种必备品。

There was one on Vivian Westwood. There was one on Dolce and Gabbana. And I know those books. They're Yeah. They're kind of like a staple.

是的，我觉得里面的图像太惊艳了。比如我记得有一张令人印象深刻的照片，一个男人穿着斑马纹双排扣夹克，画着眼线，金发，正在抽烟。对我来说，这种形象与我成长的环境截然不同——在北爱尔兰，完全不是这样的氛围。我成长在一个以橄榄球和农场为主的家庭。

Yeah. And I just found the imagery so amazing in them. You know, there was, like I think there's an amazing image of a guy in a kind of zebra printed double breasted jacket smoking a cigarette with, like, eyeliner and blonde hair. And I think there was something in that that, for me, I found quite alien from growing up where in Northern Ireland where it was not about that at all. I grew up in a family which was about rugby and on a farm.

所以当我买下这些东西时，我并没有随意穿戴。它们更像是一种拥有即归属的象征。那是我第一次理解到关于塑造角色形象的欲望或心理，或者说人类本质上就是一种装饰性的存在。

So when I had when I bought these, I never wore them randomly. I think they were kind of more like the idea of owning it or something that you were part of it by owning it. And I think that was the first time I understood the kind of desire or kind of psychology around this idea of being a character or I don't know. There was something in it that I think that we as humans are kind of this idea of decoration ultimately.

你是在哪里——考虑到你来自农场这样朴实的背景，却形成这种鲜明的风格认同？是通过什么契机开始用服装表达自我身份的？

And where did you I mean, it's quite a bold statement in describing where you come from and you grew up on a farm, but had you seen something? Where do you think you made this kind of affiliation with showing who you your identity through clothes?

我想...可能是我父母以前常买《周日时报》的时尚副刊。那些杂志会报道伦敦的时装秀动态，如果没记错的话，当时AA·吉尔应该还在那里撰稿。

I I think it was you know, I think maybe I my parents used to always get the Sunday Times style, which was on the Sunday. They used to get these magazines that would have, like, what's happening in London. It would be about fashion shows. It would be about, you know, I I think at that point, maybe I'm wrong. I think AA Gill used to write for it.

啊对，他写得真好。

Oh, yeah. He was so good.

他太棒了。那种内容对我来说就像一扇窗，让我在相对保守的北爱尔兰环境中（我84年出生，80-90年代那里社会环境复杂）找到非传统的自我表达方式。

He was so amazing. And and I think it was this idea of, like, like something which was a kind of foreign and something that was, like, sort of, like, where I felt like I needed to be able to express outside of like a kind of like, more of a conformist kind of environment. You know, I grew up in Northern Ireland, you know, I was born in '84. Between '84 and 90s. It was like pretty, quite a complex place to live.

你知道，那时候麻烦事正闹得沸沸扬扬。所以奇怪的是，回想起来，我觉得那更像是一种通过装扮来让自己感觉不属于某种境况的行为。几乎像是一种幻想表演。我记得在学校时，每隔半年就有可以自由穿着的日子。我穿着最怪异的衣服去学校，结果被大家嘲笑得不行，仿佛我是个外星人。

You know, it was, you know, the troubles were in full swing. And, so in a weird way, I think it was this nearly when I look back on it, I think it was more kind of the idea of dressing up to somehow feel like you were not in something or not part of something. You know, it was like nearly like a fantasist act. And I remember being at school, like, being, like, people like, there's days where you could actually I think it was every six months you could wear what you wanted to school. And I remember, like, wearing, like, the most craziest thing to school and being completely harassed by it, like, as if, like, I was, like, a kind of alien in this whole situation.

你还记得当时穿了什么吗？

Do you remember what you wore?

我记得那是...有次父母开车带我们从爱尔兰去法国南部露营。那时候迪卡侬刚流行起来，我穿了条印着夸张90年代图案的登山裤，配了件巨大的笑脸T恤，裤子宽松得能装下我父亲。

I I remember it was, like, I think we had gone I think my parents had drove us to the South Of France to go camping once from Ireland. And we went to it was that moment where, like, Decathlon was like a thing. And they were kind of like climbing trousers that had these, like, crazy, like kind of 90s graphics on them. And I think I wore that with like a kind of nearly like a smiley T shirt like huge. And these are like baggy trousers that would have probably fitted my dad.

当时所有人都问我'你穿的什么鬼'。那是我第一次意识到服装具有某种分裂性，能让人质疑身份认同。我始终着迷于服装与身份的关系——当我们穿着某件衣服时，它最终向你诉说了什么。我对性别议题也一直很着迷。

So and I remember people just being like, what are you wearing? You know? And I think that was the first time you I sort of realized that clothing can have this sort of divisive act somehow or like make people feel question identity ultimately. I think I think that's what I've been always fascinated about clothing is this idea of the identity of what where when we wear something, what does it tell you about yourself ultimately. And I've always been kind of fascinated by this idea of gender.

记得小时候，我家乡马卡拉菲尔镇有家小商店。母亲常带我去那里买衣服，那是家女装店。打折时我看到件皮革羽绒夹克，特别想要。

Remember, weirdly, I was a kid, there was a little small shop in, in the town I grew up in Macrafell. And I remember my mom taking me there to get like, she would buy all her clothing. It was a woman's wear store. And when there was a sale on there was this like puffer jacket, like a kind of leather puffer jacket. And, and I remember wanting it.

结果店员说'但这件拉链方向是反的，是女装款'——指的是纽扣的系扣方式。

And then the shop assistant say, oh, but the zip goes the other way. So it's the woman's side, like the way in which was buttoning.

然后呢

And

所以在我的脑海里，我并不在意。然后我记得我穿了它。接着人们说这是女式夹克，不是男式的。因此我一直痴迷于这种观念，即童年时期被强加于身的服装编码及其意义。奇怪的是，这让我回溯到像让·保罗·高缇耶这样的人，思考性别议题。

so in my head, I didn't care. And then I remember wearing it. And then people saying it's a woman's jacket, not a men's jacket. And that so I always was obsessed by this idea of like this sort of like, the coding that you get in clothing that is enforced onto you as a child, and what that meant. And in a weird way, going back to someone like Jean Paul Gaucher, this idea of looking at gender.

而且，你知道，我认为他对我来说确实是一个巨大的影响，他以一种我在周围未曾见过的方式呈现男性形象。

And, you know, I think he really, for me was like a kind of big influence on this idea of presenting men in a way that I was not seeing around me, ultimately.

关于拉链和纽扣的性别区分真是太有趣了，女装和男装的不同。你当时感到羞耻吗？当有人指出这一点时，你有羞耻感吗，还是觉得‘我就要这样，我要去往这个方向’？我觉得，

And did that's so interesting about the zip and the buttoning, you know, the women's side and the men's. And did you feel was there any shame? Like, when someone made a note, you know, pointed that out, did you have any shame feelings, or did you feel like, I'm in this, I'm going to this place? I think,

你知道，年轻时自然想要融入，想在学校里显得酷。所以当你在做一件试图蒙混过关却被注意到的事时，起初确实困扰了我。我年轻时非常敏感，会把所有事都个人化。这让我第一次意识到，穿不属于自己性别的衣服会招致评判，这奇怪地让我变得更内向。因为在我脑中这只是微妙的尝试，但在别人眼里却是大胆的举动。

you know, the natural thing, I think when you're younger is that you want to fit in, you want to be cool somehow at school. So this idea that you were doing something that you were trying to get away with, but people were noticing, kind of, I think, bothered me in the beginning, I was very kind of quite sensitive when I was younger, like very kind of I would take everything incredibly personally. And I think for me, it was like a very sort of, it was the first time I realized that there was like a, you know, that you could have judgment on wearing something that is not for your sex or something, which I think in a weird way, made nearly kind of maybe more introvert when I was younger, if that makes sense. Because I think it was like, you're toying with something that actually seems quite subtle in my head, but actually a bigger gesture in other people's head, ultimately.

是啊。有趣的是它挑战了你，暴露了你，但你必须坚持到底。就像用外向保护内向的部分，听起来矛盾却符合你的感受，你的描述太精准了。

Yeah. It's so interesting that it, you know, challenged you. It was it exposed you but you had to follow it through. And it's like that separation of protecting the introvert part by being extrovert. It doesn't make sense, but it makes sense to how you feel, and how you've described it is so good.

要么消失，特别是你提到的在动荡中成长，存在那么多分裂，而你通过成为完全不同的存在——另一种世界——来区分自己，让人们看到这一点。

Either disappear, and especially what you were talking about growing up in the troubles and there being so much division and separating yourself out by being a completely other thing, another kind of world, really, that you allowed people to see.

是的。我认为这就像，任何在岛上长大并经历过爱尔兰历史上那段怪异时期的人，总会有逃离的念头。最终，当你生活在别处，作为创意者会试图观察其他世界，思考当下世界是否本该如此。因为在我年轻时，北爱问题在1990到1997年间尤为激烈，那是爱尔兰混乱的时刻，像是结束的开始，就在《贝尔法斯特协议》之前。

Yeah. I think it's this idea of, like, I think anyone who grows up on an island, and has actually gone through kind of like a bizarre is a very bizarre moment in Irish history. I think there's always this thing of getting out. Ultimately, I think when you live out, you kind of when you're creative, I think you have this feeling of to try to see other worlds to see is this world what it should be ultimately. You know, because, you know, when when I was younger, you you during the kind of troubles, it got very heated in the kind of between, like, 1990 and 1997 was a kind of a chaotic moment in Ireland because it was sort of like, it was the kind of beginning of the end, you know, before the Good Friday Agreement.

我想当我们还是孩子的时候，某种程度上已经习惯了这种检查车底下的想法，你知道的。我记得有一天去上学，开车去的。回来时整条街都不见了，整条街被炸毁了。哇。然后麦克菲尔特，那是个相当严重的炸弹爆炸。

And I think when we were kids, you kind of become normalized this idea of like, checking underneath your car, you know, you know, you might go, you know, I remember going to school one day, and driving to school. And then on the way back, the entire street was gone. Like, the entire street was blown up. Wow. And then McAfeeult, like, quite a serious, bomb that had gone off.

然后这还不是最接近我的经历。我记得我父亲来自六英里十字，那是奥马外的一个小镇。我母亲去奥马的一家鞋店退鞋，她刚买了辆新车，把车停在街顶，那条街因为路中间有个十字架而相当有名。她总说那是生活中一个奇怪的时刻，而她只是去退鞋。

And then it was not the the closest that it kind of got to me as a child was like, I remember my my father's from Six Mile Cross, which is a very small town outside of Oma. And, I remember my mother going to a shoe shop in Oma to return shoes. And, and she, she'd just got a new car and she'd parked the car at the top of the street almost quite famous for having a cross across the middle of the road. And, and I remember it like, she always tells us, it was a kind of strange moment in life. And she was returning shoes.

当她从店里出来准备上车时，警察说不能上去，因为镇子顶端有炸弹。天啊。或者是炸弹威胁。我母亲刚买了那辆车，她试图穿过伍尔沃斯到另一个停车场去取车。

And when she got out of the shop, she went up to go get into the car and the police officer was like, you can't go up there because there's a bomb at the top of the town. God. Or bomb threat. And I think my mother was so like, she just bought the car. I think she had done something where she I think she'd gone through like Woolworths to try to get to another car park to get to it.

疯狂的是，当她到达镇子的另一边时，她原来所在的那一侧完全被摧毁了。那可能是爱尔兰最骇人听闻的时刻之一，是个重大转折点。之后双方开始意识到他们只是在互相毁灭。但作为一个孩子，这深深影响了我，因为那一刻让我明白，人可能在瞬间消失。那时我们一直在农场。

Crazily. And then as she got to the other side of the town, the side that she was on completely decimated, like and which was it was that was that was the kind of pinnacle in in Ireland where it was probably the most, grotesque Yeah. Kind of, it was very big moment, which I after that, things started to kind of realize that both sides were just destroying each other. But it was as a child, it really affected me because it was sort of like this idea that within a kind of split moment, someone could just disappear. So it was it was quite it was you and we were on the farm all that time.

我想那是某个学期中的假期，那是个非常奇怪的时刻，因为你意识到这一切是真实的。不仅仅是看到街道被毁或炸弹威胁，总是有事发生。那是第一次真切感受到现实的残酷。

Like it was that kind of like, I think it was one of the half term breaks or something like that. And it was just a very strange moment in life because you kind of realize, it was that this thing was real. It was like, it was not just like seeing it as like a street gone or a bomb threat, everything. You know, there was always something. It was the first time that it became real as a kind of reality.

总之，回想起来，我认为生活在那个时期，对我来说，幻想、不合群和试图逃离的想法，某种程度上成为了推动创造力的动力。

Anyway, so ultimately going back and sort of like, I think when you live in that period, for me, the idea of fantasy, the idea of not fitting in and trying to get out was a kind of, you you know, was a kind of a driving force, I think, in the idea towards creativity.

这无疑加剧了紧迫感。

Certainly intensifies the urgency.

是的。如今我40岁，生活在伦敦和巴黎，我其实非常感激自己在爱尔兰长大的经历。我的父母、整个家族至今仍在那里生活。但我很庆幸自己经历了这个过程，因为这让你意识到它确实能磨砺你，同时也让你看清事物的本质。你不会把一切视为理所当然，明白吗？

Yeah. Now that I'm 40 and, living in London and in Paris, I like I'm I'm actually really appreciative that I did grow up in Ireland. Like, my parent, my whole family lives there still. But I'm really glad that I kind of went through this process because I think you then realize it does toughen you, but at the same time, it makes you see things for what they are. You know, you you don't kind of, you never take it for granted, you know, in that way.

是啊。我想如果你能熬过那种境遇——无论是字面上还是情感上——尽管那种极端与非理性如今看来简直难以想象。

Yeah. I suppose if you can survive that, I mean, literally and emotionally and really sort of even though it's inconceivable, it seems, you know, for things to be so extreme and so irrational.

没错。而且我觉得我们遗忘了——英国与爱尔兰历史上的那段时期似乎被淡忘了。对现在的人们来说感觉很陌生，但其实那并不算太久远。

Yeah. And I think we forget I think we forget about that period, I think in British Irish history somehow. Think it feels quite, foreign to people now that but it was, like, it was not that long ago.

是的。我记忆犹新。当时这绝对是新闻头条大事。如今时过境迁，和平协议达成后，大家想必都想尽快遗忘，毕竟和平太美好了，有空间容纳更多可能。我始终无法理解，为什么人们总在冲突上投入那么多，而不是追求和平共处。

Yeah. I remember it really well. I mean, I you know, it was such a hugely important thing in the news, and and I I think it And when it Now that things have changed and when it did change and there was a peace agreement, I suppose everyone wants to forget about it as fast as possible because it's so nice things being peaceful, there's room for so much else. I always find it incomprehensible why is there so much investment in conflict rather than in people living to you know, in a peaceful way.

你知道吗，现在回爱尔兰感觉像个国际大都市，完全蜕变了，这很神奇。看看电影产业这些领域，他们终于能为自己取得的成就感到骄傲，这让我深受鼓舞。对我来说，在那里长大的经历非常重要。你懂我的意思吗？

You know, when I go back to Ireland, it's such like a kind of, like, cosmopolitan place now. It's sort of like, you know, it's it's completely morphed, which has been kind of amazing. And you look at, for example, like cinema and things like that being, you know, they're more proud of what they can achieve ultimately, which I find really inspiring. I find that it's very important for me that I did grow up there. You know I mean?

我觉得这段经历某种程度上帮助我理解，自己是如何成为今天的我的。

I think it's sort of like, it it helps me to kind of understand how I get to where I am now today, I think.

是啊。虽然我没去过北爱，但我母亲家族来自科克郡。我对爱尔兰有着深厚情感，那些诗歌，那里就像个充满创造力的圣地，孕育了那么多解决问题的智慧。还有那里的语言与言说方式...

Yeah. I've never been to the North, but my family, my mother's family are from Cork. I feel very attached to Ireland and all the poetry, and it just feels like a powerful place of a creatively powerful place, and that's where so many of the solutions have come from. And the the language and the talk

是的。就像，我觉得，爱尔兰作为一个整体最伟大的地方在于它关于讲故事的理念。我心目中一些最喜爱的作家都来自爱尔兰。有趣的是，他们中许多人离开爱尔兰，某种程度上是为了重新诠释它。比如奥斯卡·王尔德，我们常常忘记他其实是爱尔兰人。

Yeah. Is just Like, I think, you know, I think the greatest thing about Ireland as a whole is that it's about this idea of, like, storytelling. I think some of my all time favorite writers are from from Ireland. Interesting enough, a lot of them went, left Ireland to kind of, like, reinterpret it. You know, if you look at Oscar Wilde, I think we forget that Oscar Wilde was from there.

还有詹姆斯·乔伊斯

Or, like, James Joyce

没错。

Yes.

这些人，你知道，他们离开是为了反思故土。爱尔兰有种独特的乡土气息，但令人着迷的是它在文学上的丰饶。就像我成长的地方附近，曾有位了不起的诗人谢默斯·希尼。

Who, like, you know, they go to kind of, like, reflect on it, if you know I mean. There's something about because there's sort of, like, there is a kind of colloquialness in Ireland, but it's interesting how how rich it is in terms of literature. Like, it's sort of, you know, near where I grew up, was an amazing poet, Seamus Heaney.

太棒了。

Wonderful.

我记得小时候去听他朗诵，因为我母亲是英语老师。天啊。奇妙的是，在爱尔兰，诗人或作家几乎就像其他社会的摇滚明星。作家或诗人是非常受尊崇的职业，最终成为备受敬仰的身份。

And I remember it like going as a kid to go and like listen to him read because my mother was an English teacher. God. And it was sort of like kind of fascinating that in a weird way, the poet in Ireland or the writer in Ireland was nearly like the rock star in other societies. You know, like, be the writer or the poet was such a kind of important thing. You know, it was a very kind of esteemed kind of job ultimately or like profession ultimately.

你成长过程中如何看待自己的身体？你如此英俊，看似拥有得天独厚的条件，但设计师往往对自己的身体和体态感到矛盾。我总觉得这会驱使你将自身的比例感投射到他人身上进行创作。我很好奇你对自己的感受。

And how did you feel about your body growing up when you're so handsome and it's like you have seem like you have everything going for you, but a designer thing is really conflict about their own bodies and how they feel physically. I always feel it's a driver to kind of put your own sense of proportion onto other people and create something. And I wondered how you felt about your yourself.

我认为设计师的角色，就像是在追寻完美与不完美人群的理念中探索。

I think I think the the the role of the designer is, like, you're kind of on this, like, idea of searching for perfection and imperfection people.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我觉得，实际上这对我来说很困难，因为我从事影像创作，或者说，我最终是与世界上一些美丽的人共事。你被这种追求完美的理念包围时，反而会奇怪地变得更加不自信于自己的外貌——我认为自己是个现实主义者，清楚自己的模样。或许我错了，我不知道。我看着自己时总能发现缺陷，也明白自己与他人相比的差距，这有时确实会让你感到些许不安，因为你总是面对新事物。

And I think, you know, I actually I think it's I think it's very difficult for me to kind of, because I'm looking at image making or, you know, I work with some of those beautiful people in the world, ultimately. And you're surrounded by this idea of trying to find perfection ultimately, that you become more weirdly, I would become more insecure with my own appearance because I feel I'm a realist in what I look like or something. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Like I kind of look at myself and I kind of see my flaws and I understand where my not my level, I don't know what like how how I am in comparison to other people, which then does make you kind of a bit sort of insecure sometimes because you are being confronted always with something which is new.

当你在试衣或拍摄广告时，最终目标是从奇特中发现美。嗯。作为设计师，我确实花了多年时间才敢站在镜头前。嗯。因为我部分享受于扮演幕后操纵者的角色。

You know, the idea, you know, when you're doing fittings with or you're shooting campaigns, you're ultimately trying to find the beauty even in the strange ultimately. Mhmm. Which I I I do think is a as a designer that, you know, I I sometimes it's taken me many years to try to put myself out in front of the camera somehow. Mhmm. Because I think part of me likes to kind of be the kind of puppeteer behind the scene of it.

但随着媒体变革，你必须适应——如今真实性很重要（虽然这个词现在有点用滥了）。年轻一代想了解真实的你，他们需要相信你对自己所售之物的信念，相信其中有真实与真诚。正因如此，我意识到这份工作需要你比过去更多地引领。如今那种隐形的设计师模式或许偶尔有效，但年轻人渴望了解创作过程和故事——若你拒绝这种联结，就只是在兜售某种 sterile 的幻想，而这正是当前所缺失的。

But then as media changes, you have to sort of, like, I think it's, important today that you have, authenticity, which is sometimes, I kind of useless word to use now. But, like, it's more about you, I think younger people want to know you. And they want to believe that you believe in what you are selling, that there is a that there is a realness to it, there is an honesty to it, and that you believe in what you're making. I think that's why I've you realize within the job that you do, you've had to kind of media has changed, you have to kind of lead a bit more than you used to. I think I think today, the idea of the kind of the hidden designer, I think, yes, I think it can work sometimes, but I I think younger people are so curious to understand process and so curious to understand, storytelling that I think if you kind of deny that sort of, like, connection, then you're just sort of sort of, like, sell selling some sort of, like, sterile dream ultimately, which I think which I think is what sometimes lacks, I think.

当一切变得过于企业化时，就成了你与他们的对立。我始终愿意分享创作过程，因为我进入这行本就是受他人启发，也希望年轻人能从我这里获得灵感。我一直对'更替'理念很着迷，重要的是意识到自己拥有这段创造力迸发的时期。

When it it gets very corporate then, I think it becomes, you know, you and the others. You know? And I think I've never I've always wanted to kind of talk about my process, because I'm hoping that, you know, in the end, why I ended up in this industry is because I was inspired by other people. So then I'm hoping that other people, younger people look at me and then be inspired to try to want to do it as well. Yeah, because I've always been interested by this idea of like, replacement, I always think it's important that you always realize that you have this period of time of creativity.

但终极目标是被取代，因为那才是创造力健康发展的标志。

But the ultimate is to be replaced, because that is a good sign that creativity is healthy, ultimately.

嗯，那就是你会成为的样子

Well, that your you would be

是的，我认为重要的是总有人会挑战你。因为我相信创造力确实存在这样的时刻——你可以终生保持创造力，但在某个特定瞬间，你能对倾听的观众展现出独特魅力。这可以发生在不同篇章、不同时期。但我不认为你能永远如此。

Yeah, I think it's important that there's always someone out there that is gonna challenge you. Because I think I do think creativity has, I think there's a moment where I think you can always be creative for your entire lifetime. I think there is a moment where you can be special within a moment to the audience you're talking to. And it can be different chapters, different periods. But I don't think you can.

这与成为画家、诗人截然不同，因为你试图向同代人或更年轻群体推销理念或设计，有时也试图揣摩年长者的喜好。但终会迎来参考标准改变或社会变革的时刻。所以我始终认为重要的是——在我脑海深处，我必须坚持做自己认为正确的事。但我知道终会有那么一天，这些不再能同样激发我的热情，或出现比我所能提出的更优秀的观点，如果这说得通的话。

I think it's very different than being a painter, a poet, because I think you are trying to look at you're trying to sell something to a generation or design to a generation that is either your peer or below or trying to gauge above. But there comes a moment where the reference points change or society changes ultimately. And so I always think it's important that you always in the back of my head, I always have to do what I feel is right. But I know that there will come period in time where it may not excite me the same. Or there is better viewpoints than what I can suggest, if that makes sense.

我认为重要的是永远不要觉得自己不可战胜。

I think it's important that you never think you're invincible.

是啊。我想这确实能让人保持警觉。

Yeah. I suppose it certainly keeps you on your toes.

让你保持警觉。

Keeps you on your toes.

没错。如果你喜欢某人却不喜欢他们的穿着，这会扼杀你的好感吗？

Yeah. And if you fancy someone and you don't like someone something that they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?

不，我想...因为整天与服装打交道，我反而对那些与之无关的人更感兴趣或吸引，因为这样我就不必解释自己或什么。你懂我的意思吗？我总觉得这就像，你总是被那些你不做的事情和人吸引。你知道，我认为或者他们看起来不像你的世界那样。

No. I I think I think because I deal with clothing all day, I actually kind of am more intrigued or attracted to people that have nonengagement with it because I feel that then I don't have to explain myself or something. Do you know what I mean? And I always think it's sort of like, you're always attracted to things and people that you don't do. You know, I think that or what they don't look like your world or something.

甚至是与比例有关的奇怪事情

Even sort of weird things to do with proportion or

是的。

Yeah.

你不会...那不会困扰你吗？

You don't that doesn't phase you?

不，从不。我总认为，在男性身上，当存在...我甚至觉得服装中的某种丑陋也能成为一种迷人的观察对象，你知道，因为它挑战你对比例、颜色或人们为何决定将这些元素搭配在一起的观念。我认为这总是令人好奇，它比某人更能激起我的好奇心，因为它在某种程度上质疑了我自己对品味和现实的看法。是的，你懂吗？

No, never. I always think I always think in a guy when they there is a I always think even the kind of ugliness in clothing can always be a kind of like a fascinating thing to watch, you know, because I think it challenges your idea of proportion or color or why people decide to put those things together, you know, and I think I think it's always curious, I always gets me more curious than someone because it's sort of, it's questioning my own idea of taste and reality or something. Yeah. You know?

完全明白那种感觉。它要么是压抑的，要么是开阔眼界的。

Definitely know exactly that feeling. It's either it's either a squasher or an opener upper.

是的。

Yeah.

我在一个小采访中看到你提到有个专门放奖杯的架子，我想知道这给你带来多少满足感，以及这种满足感多久会消退。

And I saw in a little interview that you'd done that you have a shelf for awards, and I wonder how much gratification that brings you and how quickly it wears off when you've got them.

是的，办公室里有个奖杯架，不过架子在CEO的办公室里。首先，这些奖杯作为物件看起来总是特别丑。我发现它们通常都是玻璃或某种奇怪材质做的。印象中只有尼曼·马库斯那个奖杯确实挺漂亮的。

Yeah, in the offices, a shelf for the awards, but the shelf is in the CEO's office. I, first of all, are always incredibly ugly looking as objects. I always find them. I always they're usually like glass or some sort of strange material. There's think it's only once I had a really kind of one that was actually quite beautiful was actually the Neiman Marcus one.

那个奖杯造型修长优美，像是某种...

It's like this kind of beautiful, like, long figure, like a kind of

那个奖是为什么颁发的？

And what was the award for?

好像是年度设计奖之类的？我记得那个是年度设计奖。奖项这东西...我其实很感激奖项，因为这本质上是种认可，可能不只是对我个人，更是对整个团队的肯定。但颁奖晚会结束那一刻，我就觉得它其实改变不了什么。或者说...我也说不清楚。

I think it was, like, design of the year or it was something that think that one was for design of the year. I don't know. Awards are are I'm very grateful for awards ultimately because I think it's ultimately about recognition and maybe it's not actually just for me as maybe for the team because I think then it's sort of like praise of what's happening. I think the minute it's done, the evening is done, you get an award and it's done, you I feel like it doesn't really change anything. Or, you know, like, it doesn't really I I don't know.

对我来说...我不知道该怎么解释这种感觉。

I have a very for me, it's just I don't know how to explain.

你会有种失落感吗？

Do you have a come down?

低谷？我觉得我甚至还没从低谷中走出来，如果这说得通的话。我感觉这就像是自然而然发生的一部分。然后我觉得我从来不想过度分析某件事，因为一旦我感觉自己知道身处何处，那种感觉几乎就像眩晕，你往下看，然后会想，哦，原来这就是正在发生的事。

A come down? I I don't think I even come up from it, if that makes sense. I I feel like it's just part of it just happens. And then I think I never really want to over process something because I feel the minute I kind of feel like I know where I'm at. It's like nearly kind of like vertigo, you're like looking down, and you kind of like, oh, this is where this is what's happening.

而且我认为这会阻碍我前进，因为你会觉得，哦，我对自己很满意——这大概也不是好事。但我的信条是，事情永远没有完成时。无论我在做什么，无论是建房子、在Le Wavy工作、还是在Cheddar Bay，项目永远没有真正结束。我觉得一旦它完成了，那我的使命也就结束了。

And I think it would prevent me from like, going forward, because I think you'd be like, oh, I'm really happy of who I you know, I think my, which is not a good thing either, probably. But my whole thing is, it's never done. I think my I always feel like no matter what I'm doing, no matter if it's like building a house, being at Le Wavy, being at Cheddar Bay, the project is now finished. I think the minute it would be finished, then I think I would be done.

你是否有点迷信，或者害怕自满，甚至害怕出现自满的苗头？所以你总是保持警惕。你是担心太享受成功会导致自己变得消极吗？

Do you have a kind of superstitious nurse or a fear of complacent or or even the hint of complacency? So you've got it. Are you afraid of enjoying it too much in case you become kind of passive?

我觉得这有时是我最大的恐惧——当你开始享受成功，就会忘记自己是谁，你会变形。所以奇怪的是，对我来说永远有改进空间可能更好，虽然长远来看这未必是好事。

I think that's my sometimes my biggest fear that you kind of enjoy it. And then you forget who you are, you know, that you morph. Yeah. So in a weird way, it can always be better for me. Know and that's probably not great in the long run.

但对我来说，当你认清自己的位置时，就很难保持创造力，因为你无法打破现状。每次开始一个新系列，我都感觉是在摧毁一切然后重建。甚至在我的房子里也是这样——刚把一切布置完美，一周内我就会搬进更多东西，它必须永远像是个持续进行中的工程。

But for me, it's sort of like, I think the minute you the minute you see yourself for where you are, then it's so difficult to kind of like, be creative, because you can't break it. I think for me, every time I start a collection, I feel like I'm destroying the entire thing to restart again. And I even have that in my in the house, like I the minute I have the house, like everything perfect. Within like a week, I've already like loaded up more stuff and like, it's like a it needs to always feel like a kind of continual work in progress. Yeah.

因为正是这种不断重建的想法让我兴奋，这样你就不会觉得自己停滞不前。我觉得这很健康——可能不适合所有人，但对我有益，它能抑制自我膨胀（不是打压，而是约束）。毕竟时尚圈很容易让人彻底迷失自我。

Because I think for me, that's what excites me. It's this idea that you are always trying to rebuild so that you do not feel like you were there, you know. And I think it's I find it healthy. Some people it might not work for, but I I find it healthier because it kind of stops me from I think it helps to keep your ego down a bit, not down, but it keeps it contained. Because I think fashion has a tendency for you to get completely you could get completely sucked in.

你似乎做了大量工作，我很好奇你是怎么认识卢卡·瓜达尼诺的？你们正在进行的合作非常了不起。

Well, you seem to do an an enormous amount, and and, and I wondered how how did you meet Luca Guadagnini because you're doing this incredible work together.

其实我们很久以前就见过面，是通过一个共同的公关朋友介绍的。我们一起去喝了咖啡，结果聊了整个晚上，话题从艺术到电影时尚。我对他怀有极大的敬意。而让我惊喜的是，他对我同样抱有好奇与尊重。那种感觉就像遇到了一个相识已久的人。

We met a long time ago, actually, in a PR in common, like, introduced us. And we went to having coffee, and then we ended up, like, talking the entire evening about art and film fashion. And he, I have a tremendous amount of respect for him. And he had this and it was really nice because I was quite shocked that he had the same curiosity and respect for me. And it was just someone that I had met that I felt like I'd always known.

你知道吗？我们的审美趣味出奇地相似。我们保持联系多年。后来差点合作一个项目——他邀请我为他筹备的大型项目做服装设计。结果疫情爆发，整个世界都陷入了停滞。

You know, I think we had such a kind of similar type of sensibility. And we just hope for ages. And and then we were about to do a project. He asked me to kinda do costume on a on a quite large project he was gonna do. And then the pandemic and everything kind of, you know, the world went into itself, fell into itself.

后来他联系我说要拍这部网球题材的电影，问我是否有兴趣负责戏服设计。我记得那会儿疫情还没完全结束，处于可以有限出行的阶段。当时我想：为什么不试试呢？毕竟我从未接触过这类工作。

And and then he then he got in contact and was like, I'm gonna do this tennis film. Would you be interested in doing the costumes for it? And I think it was during the pandemic or as it was coming to an end or kind of the kind of, like, the part where you could travel. And I was kind of thinking to myself, why not? Like, I have never done this.

何乐而不为呢？试试看吧。其实我害怕极了，因为这是米高梅和亚马逊联合制作的大项目，主演有赞达亚、乔什·奥康纳和迈克·费斯特。整个过程中我感觉自己完全是个新手。

Let's why not? Let's try it. Completely petrified because it was, like, with MGM and it was with Amazon. It was, like, this whole, like, Zendaya, like, Josh O'Connor and Mike Fight. It was, like, the whole thing was, like I felt like a complete novice going into it.

但我真的非常非常享受这个过程。

I just love I just loved it.

那你当时

And were you

这段经历棒极了。

amazing experience.

你在片场吗

Were you on set

相当多。我经常在片场。但那时我就觉得和卢卡合作特别轻松。感觉不需要过多解释。能暂时不当老板的感觉真好。

quite Yeah. I was on set a lot. But then and just I just felt like it was so easy to work with Luca. Like I didn't feel like I had to overexplain. It was nice that I wasn't the boss for a bit.

是啊。很有意思。这段经历太棒了。过程中编剧贾斯汀·卡里斯库斯——他写过《挑战》——卢卡决定要改编威廉·巴勒斯的《酷儿》。他突然发现，自己一直想争取的版权...

Yeah. Interesting. And it was such an amazing experience. And then through the process, writer, Justin Cariscus, who had written challenges, Luca had decided that he wanted to do queer by William Burroughs. And then suddenly, he had always tried to get the rights.

突然就打电话询问版权状态，结果居然可用。他立刻行动，马上让贾斯汀·卡里斯库斯着手改编剧本

And then suddenly, he rang to see the rights were available, and they were. And then he got he actioned that straightaway and then got Justin Cariscus to write screenplay

的

of a

基于那本书。

from the book.

没错。我超爱《挑战》。那些戏服太惊艳了，简直绝了。

Yeah. I loved I loved challenges. I mean, the costumes were fantastic. They were so great.

那段经历超级有趣。你知道，乔什是我非常亲密的朋友，他在Luwave和我共事已久，能参与一个非时尚项目、而是见证他展现真正大师级技艺的时刻真的很棒。那时我认识了赞达亚和迈克·费斯特，他们三人组成的团队令人惊叹，都是才华横溢又充满关怀的人。做这件事像是逃离了我日常工作的现实，我想这正是我最享受的部分。

It was super fun to do. It was like, unlike, you know, Josh is a very dear friend, and I had known he'd been working with me at Luwave for a while and it was just really nice to kind of be part of not a fashion project with him, but actually something watching him do something which he is a master actually. And and and that's when I met Zendaya and Mike Feist who were they were just an amazing trio together to watch and just really caring people and people who are just, like, like, incredibly talented. It was nice to do something that was I don't know. Like, it was an escape from my own reality of my own day job, which I think is what I enjoyed the most.

后来我们在罗马的奇纳奇塔拍摄《酷儿》，这是部年代片，我又产生了'我能做到吗'的自我怀疑。卢卡有种非凡能力，能把人推向深水区却给予极大信任——这种放手让演员自由发挥、最终熬制出有趣'浓汤'的导演，现实中实在太罕见了。

And then, obviously, Queer, we shot at Chinachita in Rome, which was a period film, which was another kind of, like, can I do this? And Luca has this incredible ability to put people into situations where they're in the deep end and kind of he trusts a lot, I think, which I think is very rare to find in people to be able to trust and let go and bring people that you feel like are going to kind of create an interesting soup, ultimately.

我太期待《酷儿》了！青少年时期就读过威廉·巴勒斯原著，刚查到服装灵感来自保罗·卡德摩斯和贾里德·弗伦奇的画作——那些画作的氛围太震撼了！预告片完美还原了那种酷儿气质，你是怎么捕捉到这种精髓的？

I'm dying to see queer. Mean, I I read the book when I was a teenager and I loved William Burroughs, but I was reading somewhere that you you got ideas for the costumes for some painters Paul Cadmus and Jared French, I'd never and heard I looked them up and you got everything. I mean, was so powerful, the atmosphere in those paintings. And I mean, I just watched the trailer of Queer and you had it all there. How did you find also you captured the atmosphere of their queerness so well.

你是怎么发现这些画家的？之前就了解他们吗？

Now did you how did you find out? Did you already know those painters?

是的，我一直痴迷于那批美国画家和摄影师。在那个同性恋身份会引发巨大争议的年代，保罗·卡德摩斯、乔治·普拉特·莱恩斯、贾里德·弗伦奇等人创造了惊人作品。我认为莱恩斯是被严重低估的摄影大师——他对光影的理解甚至超越当代摄影师，堪称男性形体拍摄的开拓者。

Yeah. I I've always been obsessed by that group of American painters and photographers, you know, because it's such an amazing moment, like, where you have, like, Paul Kadmus, you've got George Platt Lyons, Jarrod French, you know, you've all these kind of amazing queer artists in a period where being queer must have been incredibly, divisive in America, creating just incredible work. Like, I I think George Lyons is one of the most underestimated photographers in in history because I think I think he was one of the greatest, photographers in terms of lighting. He understood lighting, I think, better than any contemporary photographer today. And I think he really kind of mapped out, like, a roadmap in terms of like shooting the male form.

无论是芭蕾还是表演摄影，没有莱恩斯可能就不会有梅普尔索普或彼得·胡贾尔这样的后来者。我和卢卡经常讨论他那些超现实主义的负片拼贴作品——和曼·雷的实验类似。巴勒斯小说背景设在40年代末50年代初，卡德摩斯那种兼具绘画性与现实主义的风格，以及当时影像创作中对男性凝视的天真表达，都成为德鲁·斯塔基饰演阿勒顿的塑造基础。

You know, shooting ballet shooting performance. And, you know, I don't think you would have had someone like Maplethorpe or even Peter Hoosh are without someone like George Yeah. And and me and Luca on the film, we discussed it a lot and it there's these amazing images that he had done where he had done like these surrealistic images where he kind of, like, cuts negatives up and then kind of montages them together. Like, Mon Ray was experimenting with it. And and but I I just felt like, you know, it was you know, with Burroughs, it's sort of like, you know, the film sort of set in end of the forties, beginning of the fifties.

我还参考了另一位杰出的英国画家格林·菲尔波特的风格。那个时期影像中对于男性/男孩的欲望凝视，有种独特的文化纯真感，这成为角色构建的重要基石。

And and I just felt there was something so kind of, you know, with like someone like Katniss so painterly but realism. And there is a kind of desire, like, think the male gaze on the man or the boy, there is something about this that I think in that period, was there was such naivety in terms of image making, in terms of queer culture that I find really fascinating. So it became a kind of like a bedrock for like Allerton, which is played by Drew Starkey. That's how I kind of got to the kind of characterization of him was like, it was looking at that period, as well as looking at another amazing British painter called Glyn Philpott.

哦，我听说过这个名字。

Oh, I've heard that name.

是的。他创作了这些精美的画作，像是社交场景的描绘，色调柔和如粉彩，又带着油画的质感，笔触有点像是点彩风格，通常色彩淡雅。我发现了一幅特别惊艳的作品，画中男子穿着淡黄色衬衫和浅灰色长裤。在为电影寻找素材时，我突然意识到——这正是我试图通过角色重现的画作意境。但创作最令人满足的部分，其实是能对他人的创意保持好奇。

Yeah. And he has got these he does it he did these beautiful paintings sort of society pictures where they're kind of like they look like pastel, they're kind of oil, they're kind of like stippled and they're usually like kind of pale. There was this amazing one I found that was like also like a guy in a kind of yellow shirt and he's sort of like pale gray trousers. And I when going to find everything for the film, It was like, this is who I was trying to I was recreating this painting into this person. But this is the most rewarding part of being creative is actually being curious in other people's creativity.

这正是我热爱的。

This is what I love.

我同意。

I agree.

没错。每天都能在创意领域发现前所未见的事物，这种兴奋感难以言表。我们所处的时代最奇妙之处就在于此——有如此丰富的资源能让我们不断发现新事物。每天我都能邂逅从未听闻的艺术家、未曾听过的音乐...

Yeah. So exciting to find things there's every day I find something in creativity that I have never seen. This is the most amazing thing about the time we live in. There's like, there is so much resource to be able to find new things. I've I've every day I come across a new artist I'd never heard of music that I've never heard before.

读到从未接触过的作家作品。我特别享受当有人说'你认识这位吧？'时能回答'不，我不认识'。因为这意味你在一天里发现了从未知晓的存在。我觉得...

Writing that I had never writers I've never heard of. I love that I love actually, I love when someone goes, Oh, you know, this person, I love being able to say no, I don't. Because it means that you found something in a day that you never knew existed, you know. And I think

你在这方面似乎真有天赋。大家喜爱你作品的原因，正是你始终展现出对其他艺术形式的好奇心，将工艺精神带入高级时装领域。你涉猎极广——自有品牌JW Anderson、Loewe、优衣库联名（我超爱），还有现在的电影工作。这真是惊人的产出量。

You seem to have a real talent for that. You're in your work. What everybody loves about what you do is that you're always showing that, you know, your curiosity about other mediums and the craft thing that you've brought into high fashion. And you do so much, you've got your own brand, JW Anderson, Luave, Uniqlo, which I love, and this, you know, the film work. And, I mean, it's a huge amount.

你是如何应对压力和处理极端情绪的？因为这种强度确实很大，我的意思是，你处于巅峰位置，这种强度会极大地影响情绪。我想知道你是如何应对这种感受的，就像面对一股势不可挡的力量。

And how do you cope with the pressure and how do you handle extreme feeling? Because it's so intense in in I mean, you're right at the top and the intensity is very mood altering. And I wondered how you deal with, you know, with the feeling. It's like a juggernaut.

是的，有时候我对自己实际工作量缺乏真实感知。周末偶尔停下来时，我会觉得无法与人相处。首先，我有两支非常出色的团队，每当我参与电影制作，都能与杰出人才共事。所以必须学会信任。对我而言，我对万事万物都保持着强烈的好奇心。

Yeah, I think there's sometimes I don't have a reality of how much work I am doing. There is moments on weekends where I do stop where I'm kind of like, I can't be around anyone. I don't know, I feel that, first of all, I have two incredible teams of people, you know, when I work on a film, I build and get to work with incredible people. So you have to trust. I think for me, I'm I'm incredibly curious about everything.

我感觉自己渴望探索一切，并从中学习。但我不会事无巨细地管理，而是让人们自由发挥，因为希望他们能感受到参与感。对我来说，只要身边有合适的人选，就能避免自己崩溃。

I feel like I want to discover everything. And I want to kind of learn from it. But I don't micromanage. I feel like I let people do their thing, because I want them to kind of be able to feel part of it. So for me, a kind of, I feel like if you have the right people around you, it prevents you from blowing up.

我认为必须持续保持好奇心，否则这一切还有什么意义？在创作过程中确实压力很大。随着年龄增长，我反而更适应这种状态了，虽然这可能也不太健康。

And I think you have to be continuous continuously curious, or then what would be the point? Yeah. In in the kind of creative act of it. It is high pressured. I think I quite I think as I get older, I get more used to it, which is probably not healthy either.

与此同时你

At the same You

具备这种能力。很有意思，你似乎拥有很强的应变力。虽然负荷很重，但你知道，做得越多，能力就越强。

have capacity. I mean, it's interesting. You seem to have quite a lot of agility. I mean, it's a lot, But you know, the more you do, the more you can do so.

我觉得这就像肌肉锻炼，持续练习就能开发出不同的能力带宽，或是找到能弥补你短板的人。现在正处于一个奇妙阶段，因为我已建立起某种持久力——身边有共事多年的团队，有人跟随我十一年，有人十五年，这是个非常忠诚的核心团队。

I think it's a it's like a muscle. It's like exercise, as you kind of keep practicing it, you then work out different bandwidths of how to achieve more, or finding people that do the things that you cannot do. I'm in a very kind of fascinating moment, because I feel like I've kind of built up a kind of stamina to be able to have like people around, I have teams that worked for me, some people have worked for me for eleven years. Some people work for me for fifteen years. I have a very kind of loyal group of people that have always worked with me.

因为我希望人们能对这个项目本身产生归属感。当人们感受不到自己的贡献并获得认同时，他们为何还要参与其中呢？所以，我希望大家能为这个项目感到自豪。是的，我认为这实际上有所帮助，因为你知道，这可能会非常紧张激烈。

Because I want people to feel invested in what the project itself. And I feel like when people are not feeling that they're contributing and getting the recognition from it, then then why would they want to be part of it? You know, so I think I want people to be proud of the project. Yeah. And I think this actually helps because I think, you know, it can be incredibly intense.

我可能很严厉。我确信许多我亲爱的朋友都会这么说。但是

I can be tough. I'm sure a lot of people who are my dear friends will probably say that. But

当你说自己严厉时，具体体现在哪些方面？

How does that come out when you say you're tough?

我认为自己严厉是因为——当我招聘时，我总是选择那些我欣赏并看到潜力的人。我想推动人们达到能自由表达自我而不受评判的境界。

I think I'm tough because I kind of I when I hire people, I always hire people that I admire, and I can see potential in. And I can I wanna push people to the point where they feel free enough to express themselves without feeling any judgment?

嗯。

Mhmm.

明白吗？所以我完全不喜欢唯唯诺诺的人。我喜欢别人挑战我。我希望人们能毫无顾忌地展现创意。被应声虫包围真的会让我非常恼火，因为这样既无法挑战现状，也无法挑战时装秀或影像创作。

You know? So I I I don't like yes people at all. I like people to challenge me. So I want people to contribute without feeling embarrassed of what they want to creatively show. So I being surrounded by yes people always can really, really irritate me because you're kind of then you're not challenging the situation or challenging the fashion show or challenging the image making.

比如我与科学家本杰明·布鲁诺共事，他是我最好的朋友之一，我们合作已超过十五年。我们都擅长刺激对方，确保在创新中寻找微妙之处。我认为这是创作过程中最重要的事——必须找到能让你脚踏实地的人，并不断挑战自我。

Like I work with a scientist called Benjamin Bruno, who's like one of my best friends who I've worked with for like over fifteen years now. And we're both very good at kind of agitating each other to kind of make sure that we are trying to find subtlety in newness. Yeah. And I think that is one of the most important things in a creative process is that you have to find people that are going to keep you on the ground. And to continually keep challenging yourself.

是啊，你不能相信那些阿谀奉承的人。

Yeah, you can't trust the sycophant.

所以我觉得这就是我热爱这份工作的原因。我喜欢和我共事的人，就像一个大家庭。每个人都在追求一件事，那就是在已有的事物中寻找新意。你知道，你试图重新设计一条裤子，重新构想一件连衣裙，这些原型有时一年要重新构想八次。

And so and I think that's what I love about what I do. I love the people I work with. It's like a family of people. And everyone's going after this thing, which is to try to find newness in something that already exists. You know, you're trying to reinvent a trouser, you're trying to reinvent the dress, these sort of like archetypes you're trying to reinvent sometimes eight times a year.

我特别喜欢和这些人一起工作。对我来说，团队是最令人兴奋的部分，因为当你找到一个能在创新方面挑战你的人时，没有什么比这更棒了。但确实，这份工作有时会让你感到孤独，尤其是当你工作繁忙时。比如，对我来说，有时甚至只是和朋友约个晚餐都像执行任务一样困难，你得确认你在巴黎吗？

And I kind of love that with when I work with people. For me, the team for me is the most exciting thing because like, there's nothing better when you find someone that challenges you in in what what can be new. But yeah, the the job can sometimes actually think it the only part when you are working a lot is sometimes you can get quite isolated. You know, it's sort of like, you're trying, you know, even like for me, sometimes even just trying to organize dinner with a friend becomes like, such a mission that you're trying to work out. Are you in Paris?

在伦敦吗？还是出差了？试图在这些间隙中保持正常的生活，哪怕只是和别人吃顿饭。

Are you in London? Yeah. Are you traveling? Are you not traveling? And you're trying to find these like windows to be normal in terms of like, just even having dinner with someone.

这可能是最令人沮丧的部分，因为你的时间往往被创作活动占据。

It can be this sometimes is probably the most frustrating part, you know, because you're kind of your time can be can be quite consumed with the the creative act.

是啊，那些巨大的挑战。

Yeah. The huge things.

回到我之前说的，当你意识到自己的处境时，就会开始自我反思。然后你会奇怪地害怕自己不再挑战自我，因为你可能对自己产出的东西感到过于满足。

You know, going back to what was I was talking about earlier, minute you know where you are, then I think you become self reflective. And then you in a weird way gets sort of scared that scared that you won't challenge yourself or something because you kind of feel at one with what you produce or something.

你是弗朗西斯·培根的粉丝吧？是的，我想是的。我有那幅艺术印刷品，真希望它是真迹。

And you're a Francis Bacon fan Yeah. I think. And I I mean, I've got that print of art. I I wish it was a real thing,

但它只是

but it's

一幅很棒的印刷品。我经常用他的色彩作为室内设计的参考。那边房间里有一块地毯，当我看到样品时就想，这完全是培根笔下的橙色。

a fantastic print. And I quite often used his colors as references for interiors. And in that room over there there's a carpet which when I saw the swatch I thought, oh, that's real Francis Bacon oranges.

而且

And

你运用色彩的方式非常细腻。我特别喜欢你系列作品中对粉色的运用。培根在作品中也常用粉色。你是通过观察事物还是阅读来获取灵感？或是两者兼有？还是说并没有特定方式？

you use color in a very nuanced way. And I love the way you use pink in your collections. Just find there's something very kind of and Francis Bacon uses quite a lot of pink in his work. Do you look at things for ideas or do you read for ideas or is it kind of a mixture or is there no specific?

我其实很热衷于色彩搭配。我不认为自己是...其实疫情期间结束后我做过一个系列，当时我迷上了画家蓬托莫。

I actually love putting combinations of colors together. I I don't think I do it in a kind of no. Actually, sometimes I I did a collection straight after the pandemic. I I'm obsessed by the painter Pontormo.

从没听说过他。

Never heard of him.

就像文艺复兴时期的画家，他他们清理了基督降临的画作，我想是在佛罗伦萨。是佛罗伦萨吗？我觉得是在佛罗伦萨。可能我记错了。

The re like, Renaissance painter, and he he they they had cleaned the descent of of Christ, which is in I think it's in Florence. Is it Florence? I think it's in Florence. Maybe I'm wrong.

在乌菲兹美术馆里，是其中之一吗？

In the Uffiti, is it one of those?

它在一座教堂里，大概是我记错了地方，也许不远。算了，这不重要。但那是幅惊人的祭坛画，他们清理后，画面呈现出雪纺绸般的色彩交响曲，粉红、蓝、紫、红交织——这是他最不可思议的作品，可能也是我毕生最爱的画作之一。

And it's in a church, and it was like I probably got the it's maybe not far. Anyway, my brain's Doesn't matter. But it's this amazing altarpiece, and they cleaned it. And it looks like the most cacophonic motion of chiffon and color and pink and blue and purple and red and this is his most incredible painting. It's probably one of my all time favorite paintings.

他们刚刚修复完它。蓬托尔莫存世的作品极少。我记得疫情后，仿佛重获了某种创作能量——那时觉得要么做有意义的秀，要么做能保住工作的秀。后来我整季系列都基于那幅画，只因那些色彩对我而言...虽然我不画画。

And they just restored it. And there's very little works by by Pontormo in the world. And I remember actually being like, after the pandemic, which I felt like I had refound a new type of creative energy, because I think it was like the idea that either you do a show and it has to mean something or you do a show and it has to work because then you'll keep your job. I think it was one of those sort of things. And I based an entire collection on one on that one painting because I just found that the colors were just the I think for me painting, I don't paint.

但我着迷于从脑到手的过程——那种将脑中色彩通过画笔呈现，把世界折射成某种输出的能力。

But for me, I am so fascinated by brain to hand. This idea that you can do brain to hand color paint, and be able to kind of take the world and like, reflect it into some sort of, like, like, output.

你自己画画吗？

Do you draw yourself?

如果遇到瓶颈或需要解释想法时，我会潦草勾勒几笔，但我不画时装插画。更多是在人台上直接实验，通过反复试错来创作。

I kind of I will if I get frustrated, if I can get an idea, I will start to kind of roughly sketch out something if I'm trying to explain something to someone, but I don't illustrate fashion. I do a lot of it on the body, and a lot of it's sort of, experimenting through toils ultimately.

这就是大脑与手的联系。我对此深信不疑。

And that's where the brain to hand. I'm a real believer in that.

所以当我观察画家时，总是为之着迷，因为我认为这是你在用大脑指挥双手，而非让手自行其是去调色或构思如何层层构建。比如看培根的作品，你是在创造一种视觉语言，就像写作一样，让人一看就知道是培根的风格。对我来说，我的大脑不这样运作，所以觉得特别启发人。

So when I look at painters, I'm always like mesmerized by it because I think it's you're doing you're the brain to hand isn't doing these crazy things to mix color and to kind of work out how to build up. You know, if you look at bacon, you're creating a visual language, which is like writing, that when you look at it, you know, it's bacon. Yeah. Which for me, I think my brain doesn't work that way. So I find it so inspiring.

对我而言，这就像——我可以在博物馆待上一整天，没有什么比观赏画作更美妙的事了。我觉得绘画某种程度上让你意识到自己在这个世界的位置。就像看透纳或荷尔拜因的作品时，你会感到恍惚：我们自以为现代，但真的如此吗？

This for me is like, you know, I could be at museums all day, I, you know, I could, there is nothing better than looking at painting because I think it's sort of it it makes you I think it makes you realize where you stand in the world somehow. I think it kind of, you know, for me, it's that whole thing. There's always better, you know, it's sort of like when you look at a Turner, or, you know, you see a, you know, Holbein, for example, I find I find it mesmerizing, like a Holbein for me, when you go into when you go to the National Gallery, and you see works by Holbein, it's sort of like, you're like, we think we're modern today, but are we? You know, I think, you know,

它们总能恰到好处地触动人心，不是吗？

They always hit the spot somehow, don't they?

是啊。我觉得这种能力非常迷人，甚至可以说性感——能够真实模仿或描绘生命的人。

Yeah. I I think it's sort of like I think it's so attractive as well. I think it's so I think it's very sexy. Someone who can actually imitate life or paint life.

你特别擅长用意象代表作品，比如那个阴茎钥匙扣，太棒了。还有鸟形包，以及你织在毛衣上的圆形汽车图案，我一直记得。

You're very good at images which represent your work, like the penis key ring. I love that. That was so good. And the bag, the bird bag. And I always remember a car on a jumper that you made in a circle.

没错。那个画面我记得特别清楚，有时被困在某处就会想起它有多美，那么简单。总忍不住想：天啊，真希望这是我想到的点子。你怎么判断某个创意能否成功转化呢？

Yeah. I remember that so well and I think about it when I'm sometimes when I'm just stuck somewhere and think how beautiful that was, it was so simple. And I always remember thinking, god, I wish I'd I wish I'd thought of something like that. And how do you know when something will translate?

当翻译在我面前进行时我能感知到，因为在做秀时，你清楚自己作品集中哪些是新元素。当你推动某个设计时，若预感到它会商业成功——其实这很难判断。比如JW Anderson的鸽子包，那原本只是我的一个玩笑。

I I know when it translates in front of me because I feel like when we're doing a show, you know what is new in your own repertoire. You know what you've pushed something. It when you know something is going to commercially work, I it's very difficult to know. Like, for example, if you take the pigeon bag at JW Anderson, that was like that was me. That was a kind of joke at one point.

我们做造型时，那只鸟元素原本只是用来辅助整体视觉表达。我完全没料到它会成为标志性设计。这类事情根本无法预测，就像在Luwafay设计手袋时，你以为会大卖的款式可能惨败，而最不被看好的反而成功。所以我的创作过程就像走钢丝，总在探索结构常规下能突破的极限。

When we were doing styling, it was a kind of there was this, like, bird, and I think it just helped with, like, articulating the look. I never knew it was going to kind of turn into the thing it did. I think you can never predict those things, you know, like, sometimes at Luwafay, you know, like, it's like designing handbags, we're trying to come up with new leather goods, you'll have a bag which you think is going to be a massive success, and it will be a total failure. And then the one that you least expect will be the one that works. So for me, it's sort of like, in my own creative process, I'm doing a show or creating a range of products in front of me, you always know that there is a kind of you're trying to find this like tension in how far you can push something within the normality of the structure.

就像那件带圆点的毛衣，我超爱那场秀。那是JW Alison早期的作品。

So it's like a sweater with a dot on it. I love that show. That's like a early JW Alison show.

早期

An early

那是我们早期做的JW Allinson秀场，有荷叶边靴子，还有黄蓝红三色圆点设计

It was an early JW Allinson show that we had done where it was like ruffled boots and we had these like it was like a yellow dot, a blue dot, a red dot, I think it was. They

太棒了，我爱

were great. I love

那些设计。有时候极简手法反而营造出超现实感。当这些色块出现在立体人体上时，会形成奇妙的视觉异化——我记得是白底配红黄圆点。

those. And I just thought it was like this sort of sometimes the kind of simplicity in the act or something makes it quite surreal. Yeah. Because you're kind of when you look at the body, I think they were white and red and white and yellow. But it's nearly like you're once you kinda put that on a three-dimensional form of the body, it becomes quite a strange thing.

所以实际上，即便是相当简单的东西，在剪影效果下也会变得相当古怪。但，是的，我认为有时候我喜欢把设计推得很远。而有些时候，我觉得只需提高牛仔裤的腰线，搭配一件男士衬衫，稍微调整比例可能就是你想做的全部。你知道，我觉得这就像是踩油门又松油门的感觉。

So even actually something quite simple then becomes quite odd on in in the kind of in the kind of silhouette. But, yeah, I think it's about sometimes I like to push quite far. And then there's moments where I think just raising the waistline of a jean and a and a kind of men's shirt and you're kind of screwing with the proportion might be all that you want to do. And you know, I think it's about putting the gas on gas off Yeah.

说到你的广告大片，它们真是太有趣、太棒了。我特别喜欢丹尼尔·克雷格那组，因为它既有趣又高级。他对服装简直痴迷，不是吗？我见过他几次，记得有一次他问我，‘你穿的是Ozzy Clark吗？’结果还真是。

And with your campaigns, I mean, they're just so much fun, they're so great. And I love the Daniel Craig campaign because it was fun and high fashion. And he's quite obsessed with clothes, isn't he? And he's almost like, I mean, the few times I've met him, I remember meeting him once and he said, Oh, is that Ozzy Clark you're wearing? And it was.

这让人有点不安，因为他有着敏锐的时尚眼光。比如其中一张照片里松开的腰带，我很好奇你为什么决定让腰带那样挂着？你似乎能与你邀请参与广告的人产生共鸣，仿佛他们一直渴望以这种方式穿衣，这些设计实在太巧妙了，让我欲罢不能。

And it was so disconcerting because, you know, he just had this fashion eye. I mean, look, the undone belt in one of the pictures, I'm intrigued by how you decided, why did you leave the belt like that? And you seem to connect with the people you invite to take part in your campaigns as though they've always wanted to do something like this and always wanted to wear clothes in this way and these clothes. They're so ingenious. Me more.

我觉得和丹尼尔合作，就像我们之前与卢卡在《酷儿》项目中的合作。我发现丹尼尔最惊人的地方在于，他是最伟大的演员之一。嗯，比如我最爱的电影之一是根据弗朗西斯·培根作品改编的《魔鬼之爱》。

I think with Daniel, it was like we'd work together on on queer with Luca. And and I he he I just found I think the amazing thing about Daniel, he is one of the greatest actors. Mhmm. Like, it just he you know, one of my favorite films is love of the of the devil, which is by Francis Bacon.

是啊。

Yeah.

丹尼尔有种特质，当你和他交谈时，他的眼神接触仿佛能直接看透你。他的眼睛有种神奇的魔力，让你感觉是在与一个灵魂对话。当时我就想，我们一定要合作拍广告。我和大卫·西蒙森讨论过，我们想做些既常规又带点颠覆性的东西。

And there is something about Daniel where when you are talking to him, he has a connection to you, an eye contact that is so, as if it is like reading straight into you. His eyes have got this amazing ability to kind of make you at one to talk to. And then I I was just like, let's do a campaign together, and I kind of had this. I was speaking to David Simonson. We wanted to kind of do something which was like kind of norm, corm kind of sort of thing.

但与此同时，我有个奇怪的幻想——它可能看起来会有点像...

But at the same time, I had this, like, weird fantasy. It could nearly look like a bit like

不是Iggy Pop。

Not Iggy Pop.

就是Iggy Pop。就是这样。

Iggy Pop. That's what it is.

因为某些姿势

Because some of the poses

对。我脑海里会浮现Iggy Pop那种情绪化的画面，比如他曾经登上杂志封面时几乎是全裸的。当我看着Dino时，我特别喜欢他能变幻出这些不同角色的特质，而且他对此非常投入。

Yeah. And I I have these, like, mood imagery of, like, Iggy Pop, like, where he think he was, like, he was come over with the magazine. He was, like, naked on the front of her kind of magazine at one point. And and when I look at Dino, I love that he can kind of morph into these different characters. And he was so game for it.

你懂我意思吗？那条腰带之所以松开，是因为整个系列的设计中所有衣物都是相互连接的——袜子、裤子、腰带是一个整体，所以裤子上其实只有半条腰带。

You know I mean? Yeah. And the reason why the belt on the thing is undone is the whole show that collection was from everything was attached to each other. So the socks, the trouser, the belt was one unit. So it was actually only half a belt on the trousers.

然后夹克、衬衫和领带也都是连在一起的。我痴迷于这种新式制服的概念，只需套上两件或一件就能完成造型。所以腰带才只系了一边。不过他动作实在太敏捷了。

And then you had a jacket, shirt and tie was all attached to each other. So I became obsessed by this idea of like the new type of uniform, the idea that you could just like throw two pieces on or one piece on to do a look. So that's why the belt was just on one side. Right. But he was he's so fast.

这非常迷人，你知道吗？最令人兴奋的莫过于与那些完全投入情境的人合作，这样才能捕捉到最精彩的画面。一旦人们开始试图控制，角色那种神秘感就消失了。所以我认为真正成功的广告大片，都是人们彻底放手融入拍摄过程的，比如我们和Maggie Smith合作时——

It was such a fascinating, you know, like, there's nothing more exciting working with people that will entirely let go to the situation. That's when you get the the greatest imagery. The minute that people start to get a bit controlling of it is when you lose the mystique of the character. So I think in in in the campaigns, the ones that really work are the ones where people just let go to the process. Like when we we shot Maggie Smith with

是啊。那是

Yeah. That was

可以告诉她。我觉得那一直是我的梦想，我请求过很多次。我一直想为T台秀拍摄她。

can tell her. And I think that was it was so I'd always wanted to it was like my dream. I'd asked so many times. I'd always wanted to shoot her for the runway.

真的吗？

Really?

之前一直被拒绝，突然她就答应了。当然，我们拍吧。拍摄地点在伦敦郊外一个类似同志酒吧的地方。

And it was like a no and a no and a no. And then suddenly she was like, yes. Sure. Let's do it. And and we shot it like a kind of it's like a gay bar in somewhere outside of London.

这就是典型的尤尔根风格——五分钟内完成拍摄。他有一种惊人能力，能发掘出人们从未见过的真实一面，找到他们内在的惊人美感。每次拍摄时，看他如何捕捉人物真实的光芒，对我来说都无比着迷。玛吉·史密斯那组照片是我的里程碑作品，回顾职业生涯时，那绝对是我的高光时刻之一。那张照片完美诠释了Luave品牌的精髓。

And it was just classic Jurgen where he just within, like I think the shot was within five minutes. And he has this amazing capability of finding the reality in someone that no one may have ever met and finds this that kind of amazing beauty within them that is just so fascinating to me to what like, when when you're gonna shoot like, when we've done loads of shoots with the organ, it's just watching him just find this little, like, slither of light into someone that you re that really tells them the honesty of that person. And I like, I, for me, was such a milestone, Maggie Smith, because it was like a it was like a kind of for me, it was like one of the highlights of, like, when I look at my work that I've done, I love that image. I just think it's sort of like, I think it tells you everything that Luave is about, you know.

这类人总能惊艳亮相。照片里的她已年迈，但穿着华服，让人感受到生命的完整魅力——不只是年轻时光鲜亮丽，整个人生都值得盛装庆祝。

And that sort of people somehow, there she is. I mean, she's pretty old in that picture and wearing all these wonderful clothes and makes you feel invested in the whole of your life rather than just a bit of it that you can dress up and have fun and be attractive in.

没错。玛吉·史密斯最激励我的是，她的面容随时间自然变化，每个时期都真实展现着那个阶段的特质。如今我们沉迷手机滤镜，但真正动人的是那些镌刻着时光痕迹的面孔——当你凝视时能读出他们在地球上经历的岁月，这才是最震撼的美。

Yeah. And I think I what I always find so inspiring about Maggie Smith is that the face, her face changes with time. And there is a reality in the character of that time, you know, so like when, you know, I think we have become so obsessed by our faces now, because we have camera phones and filters on. But what I love, the most attractive people are the people that you look at and you go, their face, where's their time on this planet? You know, that's where I think people become so beautiful.

就像我回想在片场遇见她时，你的面容仿佛在诉说你的过往。我认为这正是伟大画家所追求的——他们想描绘那些能讲述故事的面孔。这也是为什么我选择广告代言人时，总希望他们能展现真实年龄感，或让人觉得他们言之有物，会成为晚宴上闪耀的存在。要知道，如果我选的人让我不愿共进晚餐，那还有什么意义呢？我渴望的是能讲述精彩故事的人。

Like when I look at when I met met her on set, was just like, your face tells me the history of you. And I think that is, you know, if you look at great painters, you want to paint faces that tell you that they've done something that they and I think that's why when I pick people for campaigns, I always want them to be people that they feel their age or they feel that they have something to say that they're going to be a great at dinner. You know, I feel like anyone that I put in a campaign, I feel if I couldn't go to dinner with them, then then what would be the point? You know, I mean, I would I want someone who's gonna like, have a tell you a great story or Yeah,

你在业内有哪些朋友？是否有设计师好友或敬仰的对象？还是说你会刻意与行业保持距离？

and who are your friends in the business? Do you have any designer friends or anyone you look up to or do you kind of keep out of the business?

我的交友圈非常紧密，比如本就是我时尚圈最好的朋友。他是我真正敬仰的人，我认为他是我们这代最杰出的造型师之一。他对时尚的视角与我截然不同，这正是我钦佩他的原因。至于其他设计师，说实话大家总泡在工作室里，很少有机会社交。LVMH Prize颁奖时倒是很棒，能结识年轻设计师和LVMH旗下各品牌的工作人员。

I don't I have a very tight group of friends, you know, like Ben is like my best friend in terms of in fashion, you know. I think he is someone that I really look up to, someone who I think is I think is one of the greatest stylists of of my generation. And I think he I think he sees fashion in a different way than I see it. I think that's why I I would just really look up to him in that way. And then other designers, I, you know, I think most designers will, you know, you're ending up in the studio all the time you don't really get to hang out, you know, at the LVMH prize is always quite great to kind of sit and like meet young designers and be around people who work at LVMH, different brands.

你会穿其他设计师的作品吗？

Do you wear anyone else's clothes?

这让我很纠结。我主要穿优衣库和李维斯。纽约有家店叫...Front General Store？我超爱去那里，全是复古风和日系风格的T恤之类的东西。

I really struggle. I I don't. I I primarily wear Uniqlo and Levi's and I I love the store in in New York called what's it called? The front general store. And it's just I just love going in there because it's like, it's all vintage and and kind of Japanese, like, T shirts and things like that.

说不清原因，但穿别人设计的衣服让我很挣扎。像是侵犯领地似的，其实我也不明白，就是觉得这个行为本身很怪异。

I don't know. I I think I struggle to wear other design. I think it's like a territory. I don't know what it is, actually. I think it's sort of, I feel like it would be it's a very strange act to do.

嗯...我确实会痴迷某些设计，有些作品让我爱不释手，但不确定自己敢穿——有时缺乏那份自信。好吧。

Mhmm. I like I can I can obsess over? Like there's some clothing I just love that people have done. I don't know if I would wear I can't I don't know if I have the confidence sometimes to wear it. Okay.

这真是件非常奇怪的事。有些人对此非常在行。说来奇怪，我倒很想尝试这种前卫又怪异的穿搭。但我觉得这归根结底还是自信的问题。我想这是为你量身设计的。

It's a very strange thing to do. Some people are very good at it. I would love to wear it fashion, weirdly. But I think going it goes back to that self confidence thing. Think I designed for you.

我热爱设计男装。我尤其热衷于突破男装界限，因为这就像实现我穿衣幻想的舞台——那些我渴望能驾驭的造型。你知道，我总觉得若能成功驾驭会非常棒，正是这种渴望驱使我不断创作。不过说实话，我不确定自己是否认识很多设计师同行。

I love doing menswear. And I love kind of pushing menswear because I think it's me a fantasy act of what I would love to be able to wear. You know that I feel that I would just love to be able to pull it off. And I think that's what drives me to do it. But no, I don't know if I hang out with many designers.

那太糟糕了。我确实认识几位很欣赏的设计师，比如曾为Prada设计橱窗的。几十年来，我认为Mitch Bravo始终在时尚界保持着非凡影响力，至今仍极具时代意义。仅仅通过橱窗设计工作，她的作品就彻底改变了我对时尚的认知方式——那种蕴含其中的心理学视角令我着迷。

That's awful. I know some that I really like, you know, I used to do windows for Prada. And I think one of the people that I I still find I I think is greatly important in in in fashion for so many decades and is still consistently relevant is Mitch Bravo. I I I just think she I think by working even just just doing the windows, I think for me, I I think product had the biggest effect on me because I think it made me look at fashion in a completely different way. I love that she there is a psychology to it.

时尚确实存在高雅与庸俗之分，就像艺术史中的分野。她懂得如何自嘲，如何拿捏分寸...我觉得她简直充满魔力。每次看她的秀场或创意访谈，我都感叹世上少有这般人物。可以说，现代服装的诞生很大程度上归功于她开创性的贡献。

Is there is good taste and bad taste. There is like the history of art in it. There is how to make fun of yourself, how to be, you know, I think she is I think she's just magical. And I think every time I see a show or something or even when she's talking creatively, I just think there is not many people in the world like that. And and I think, you know, it's, I think she's incredibly important for the kind of birth of modern clothing today that we see it.

事实上她在男装领域的成就对我影响至深，塑造了我的设计理念。仰望这样的标杆人物是件美好的事——就像大学时期我疯狂崇拜Hedi Slimane那样。记得我在Selfridges兼职时，完全沉迷于Dior掀起的伦敦风潮，那真是个划时代的时刻。

And I actually think she's done so much in menswear, that that for me really shaped me, as a designer. And I just, yeah, I think it's sort of, it's nice to look up to people. Yeah, I think, you know, it's sort of like, I even like when I was at university, I just thought Hedi Slimane was like, the most amazing thing. Like I remember remember taking a part time job in Selfridges and I was just completely obsessed by Dior on that moment because it was like, it was such a movement in London. It was like it was such a kind of moment.

没错，那确实是段难以复制的黄金岁月。记得大学时在某次派对上——你可能也在场——是在The Clash乐队成员家里吧？应该是他们中的谁...

Yeah, it was actually one of the great not to kind of go like often a kind of tangible. I remember meeting when I was at university at a party, I think you might have been at it. I think it was someone I think it was someone's house at the clash. Was it the clash? Someone from the clash.

我记得令尊当时也在场。

I think your father was there.

哦，那一定是在保罗和特里西娅家里。

Oh, it must have been at Paul and Tricia's house.

是啊。赫吉也在场。那一刻就像，你知道的，就像遇见偶像的那种感觉。那种氛围太特别了，因为那是关于音乐的。

Yeah. And Hedgie was there. And it was, you know, when it was like kind of like that moment where you're just like, you'd met like your idol or something. Was like this, like, it was such a thing. It was because it was like music.

是时尚，是亚文化，还带着优雅。你懂我意思吗？我一直觉得这两人之间的结合很奇妙，我想我喜欢他们对我产生的影响。

It was fashion. It was subculture. It was like and then elegance. Do you know mean? So I've always weirdly, the combination between those two people, I think I think I like that they that I I like that they had an effect on me.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道，如今我们总自豪于做纯粹的自我，宣称自己毫无渊源。但就像伟大的画作或音乐，没有什么比一个人以那种方式激励你更美妙的事了。

You know, and I think today, we're so proud of being that we just are ours. We just that we are that we never came from anything. But you know, like, like great paintings or like great music, there is nothing better than when a person inspires you in that way.

是啊，完全同意。

Yeah, couldn't agree more.

因为这意味着你某种程度上——被事物影响是好事。就像我痴迷于西班牙普拉多博物馆那条挂满史上最伟大画作的宏伟长廊。

Because that means that you're kind of like, it is good to be influenced by things because I think, you know, I've always I'm obsessed by at the Prado in Spain. You have the the huge corridor of, like, some of the greatest paintings in history.

是啊，所有的戈雅作品。

Yeah. All the Goias.

没错。你还拥有戈雅厅，那是个令人惊叹的房间。楼上则陈列着鲁本斯和提香分别创作的亚当与夏娃画作，它们看起来一模一样，却出自截然不同的手笔。但我欣赏这种理念——有时候你需要通过模仿来学习。

Yeah. And you've Goia, which is an amazing room. And then upstairs, you have like Adam and Eve painted by one by Rubens and one by Titian. They look exactly the same, But they're completely different hands. But I like that this thing that you know, sometimes you have to emulate to learn.

我认为时尚界不知为何变得过分强调对事物的领土主权意识。最初设计时总会觉得'这是我首创的'，我也曾有过这种阶段——'这明明是我的创意，你怎么敢抄袭？'但后来你发现，真正令人兴奋的是设计出某样东西，将它推向世界，然后放手。

And I think we are I think fashion through, for some reason, became so like, territorial ownership over things. I designed this first I did this was always, always like this thing that we and I think I was like that for a bit. You're like, I did that. How dare you? And then you realize that it's actually more exciting to design something, put it out in the world, and let go of it.

正是这种观念让我能持续创作。受到画家启发其实很美妙，受其他设计师影响也同样珍贵，因为这能推动时尚叙事的演进——当你不再自我审查时，事物就会向前发展。

This is the thing that I think has helped me to keep saying somehow. That is actually amazing to be influenced by a painter. It's amazing to be influenced by another designer because I think that helps to kind of like progress the fashion narrative or like push kind of things because you're kind of not being you're not self censoring yourself.

而且

And

奇怪的是，时尚界曾经历过一个阶段——社交媒体也经历过——人们热衷于追溯创意的源头并进行指责。我认为这毫无益处。看看绘画领域的创造力吧，学习过程本就应该师从古典大师，近百年许多杰出当代画家也会重新诠释戈雅或伦勃朗。这很有趣，因为本质上你正通过热爱的创作过程重新发现自我。

I think there was a phase weirdly that fashion went through this thing that's like, I think it was like, I think social media went through this, kind of like shaming of like where things came from. And I don't think this is helpful. For me, this is like, you know, if you look at creativity and painting, for example, in this idea of learning, you know, you would have learned from the old masters, then you would have, you know, and the, you know, a lot of some of the contemporary painters are great painters like over the last one hundred years, they would have looked to like they would have maybe done an interpretation of Goya, or they would have done an interpretation of Rembrandt. Like this, think is interesting, because ultimately, you are trying to rediscover yourself through the creative process that you love. Yeah.

而且我认为

And I think

我觉得说得太好了。非常感谢你，乔纳森，

I think that's so well put. It's I'd like to thank you so much, Jonathan, for

谢谢。

Thank you.

感谢你参加《时尚神经症》并分享这么多有趣的想法。

For being on Fashion Neurosis and so many interesting ideas.

是的，真的非常感谢。通常我做采访时总说，每次接受采访都像去看心理医生。但这次是第一次我真的感觉自己就在心理医生那里。非常感谢你

It's yeah. Was Thank you so much. Usually, when I do interviews, I've always said it's like, every time I go to do an interview, it's like going to the shrink. This is the first time that I actually feel like I'm at the shrink. But thank you so much for

邀请我。我也从你那里学到了很多。我完全同意你刚才说的向他人学习并实践他们方法的那番话，因为我父亲就是这么做的。他临摹了沃托的画作。

having me. Learned so much as well from you. I I totally agree about that thing that you were just saying about learning from other people and rep and doing their thing because my father did that. He Yeah. He, you know, he did a painting of Watto's painting.

他还临摹了柯罗的作品——我不想称之为复制，他只是观察后画了出来。这引发了一个关于大脑与手部协调的全新思考，过程中会产生新的东西。

He did a Corot of, I mean, I don't want to call it a copy, but he just looked at it and did it. So, and it's, it kind of brings up a whole, like the brain to hand thing, something else comes out of it. And

是的，我认为他创作的那些作品非常了不起，因为这实际上是对绘画历史的致敬。

yeah, I think those are actually amazing works that he did, because I think it's actually about the appreciation of the history of painting.

还有，你知道吗，我在他工作室发现了这个。不知为何它躺在地上，我觉得你会喜欢这个。

Also, you know, found this, which I was in his studio. And I somehow I don't know why it was lying on the floor. And I just thought you'd appreciate that.

是啊，不，太棒了。我，嗯。

Yeah. No. That's amazing. I yeah.

我确定

I'm sure

他从未用过它。不过，真的非常感谢邀请我。现在感觉特别放松。哦，太好了。

he never used it. But, no, thank you so for much for having me. Thank feel incredibly relaxed now. Oh, great.