尼尔·多伊格来自Money Tipps的访谈

欢迎来到消防员访谈节目。

Welcome to firefighting.

我是乌苏拉，这个频道专门采访那些实现了财务自由的人士。

My name is Ursula and this is the channel where I interview people who have achieved financial independence.

如果你喜欢收听，请务必订阅。

If you enjoy listening, then please do subscribe.

那么，欢迎来到消防员访谈。

So welcome to firefighter.

今天，我要对话的是理财小贴士的总监尼尔·多伊格。

Today, I'm talking to Neil Doig, director of money tips.

让我们开始吧。

So let's crack on.

尼尔，简单介绍一下你自己吧。

Tell me a bit about yourself, Neil.

你是做什么的？目前在进行哪些项目？

What do you do and what projects are you currently working on?

嗨，厄索。

Hi, Erso.

首先非常感谢邀请我参加节目。

Thanks so much for having me first of all.

我的公司叫MoneyTips，代表税务、投资、房产、养老金和储蓄，我们是一家金融教育公司。

So my company is MoneyTips, stands for Tax Investment Property Pension Savings, and we're a financial education company.

我们帮助人们做出更好的财务决策。

So we help people make better decisions with their money.

同时我也是《金融时报》的作者，著有《千禧一代金钱思维》一书。

So I'm also a Financial Times author for my book Millennial Money Mindset.

想要收获果实，就得先培育根基。我还创作了《足球阵型资产配置》卡牌游戏，教人们如何实现财务自由并提前退休。

If you want the fruits, you need the roots and creator of Football Formation Asset Allocation, which is a card game which teaches people to become financially independent and retire early.

好的，听起来你手头有很多事要处理，而且正在忙很多事情。

Okay, so it sounds like you've got quite a lot on there and you're doing quite a lot of stuff.

很多人对财务自由和金融感兴趣，都有各自特定的原因。

So a lot of people have a kind of a quite specific reason as to why they're interested in sort of financial independence and finance kind of in general.

你最初是什么时候对FIRE运动或财务自由产生兴趣的？是什么激发了这种兴趣？

When did you first become kind of interested either in the FIRE movement or financial independence and sort of what sparked that interest?

我对金钱最早的清晰记忆是在上世纪九十年代。

So my first vivid memory of money was it was during the nineteen nineties.

那时英国刚刚脱离欧洲。

It just been Britain had just come out of Europe.

当时正值股市暴跌的高峰期。

There was it was the height of the stock market just plummeted.

那是黑色星期一，经济衰退时期的疯狂岁月。

It was black black Monday and it was kind of a crazy time during the recessions.

我最早的记忆是，我趴在地上，周围全是英镑硬币，就像迪士尼动画《唐老鸭俱乐部》里的场景。

And first memory of me, I was on the I was on the the floor full of pound coins, like like a like a scene from DuckTales, the Disney cartoon DuckTales.

当时我们正在为童子军巴士筹款，举办了一场旧货义卖活动。

And what I've been I was, you know, basically, I've been at a jumble, so we'd saved trying to raise money for a scout bus.

我们挨家挨户收集旧衣服和玩具，送到童子军小屋，通过旧货义卖来筹款买巴士。

So we'd basically set collected old clothes and toys and things like We're around well, kind of went around people's houses and basically collected their own own toys and clothes and delivered it to the scout hut and we basically sold it for a jumble sale to raise money for this bus.

这段经历让我明白：任何市场都存在机会，即使在困难时期也总有转机。

So it kind of was it kind of envisages I had this this is what I was thinking about when I kind of think think back to my first memory of money and it kind of instilled in me how you can there's opportunity any in any market and how even in bad times that there's always opportunity.

这与今天英国脱欧的形势产生了共鸣。

It kind of resonates to today with us in Britain coming out of Europe.

过去几周几个月里，我们正经历着类似股市崩盘的情况。

Since you were heading into well, we had a kind of over the last few weeks and months, there's been a kind of a a stock market kind of crash.

而且，九十年代世界杯和最近英格兰足球队都打进了半决赛，历史总是惊人地相似。

And, yeah, England, at the same time, they both England football team both were in the semifinals back in the nineteen nineties in the World Cup and recently as well.

差不多就是这样吧。

So it kind of yeah.

我认为历史总是惊人的相似。

I think history kind of rhymes.

事情的发展方式有时候真的很奇妙。

It's quite strange how things kind of come come about.

这就是我对金钱最初的记忆了。

So that was kind of my my my first memory of kind of money and yeah.

我当初预想的情况。

What I, yeah, what I kind of envisaged happening.

是的，我觉得你说的很有意思。

Yeah, I think it's really interesting what you say.

我认为历史确实会重演，我们现在可能正在经历这种情况。

I think history definitely repeats itself and I think we're probably finding that.

各位听众和观众朋友们，我们实际上是在新冠疫情期间录制的这期节目。

So just listeners and watchers, we're actually recording during the COVID nineteen pandemic.

有趣的是，显然有很多企业确实陷入困境，正在或即将倒闭，但仍有部分企业蓬勃发展。

And what is interesting is obviously there are an awful lot of businesses which really are in trouble and are going under or potentially will go under, but there are still some, but there are other businesses which are booming.

比如我们现在使用的Zoom平台，显然表现非常出色。

Zoom, for example, the platform we're currently utilizing is obviously doing really well.

很多在线平台和超市其实过得并不差。

A lot of our online platforms, supermarkets are not not having a bad time with it.

虽然这么说可能有点冷酷，但事实就是如此——在任何市场环境下总有机会赚到钱。

So it's it is one of those horrible things that there is, you know, it can sound a bit crass to say it, but there is kind of always an opportunity in any market to make a bit of money.

我在想这个问题时，就像我书《千禧一代财富思维》第六章里谈到的季节更替。

I was thinking of it like this, in chapter six of my book, Millennial Money Mindset, talk about the seasons.

你可以把它想象成一个商业周期。

So think of it, it's like a business cycle.

每个周期都有公司表现优异，也有公司表现不佳。

So every cycle is there's good things that companies do some companies do well, some companies don't do well.

目前我们正处于金融商业周期的秋季阶段。

So at the moment, we're kind of in the autumn of the financial business cycle.

可以把商业周期想象成一年四季的变化。

So think of the business cycle like the seasons of the the year.

它包含春夏秋冬四个季节。

So it's got spring, summer, winter, and fall.

市场上涨的方式本质上是不同公司在不同时期会有不同表现。

So and the market kind of the way it moves up is, yeah, essentially, there's kind of different different companies do better in different times.

每家公司都有自己的优势和劣势。

There's no that each company has, like, strengths and weaknesses.

我们现在正进入秋季，之后会经历冬季，但你看联邦快递和优步这些大企业，都是在经济衰退期创立的。

So it's a bit like we're heading into the kind of autumn where it's fall or the autumn, and then since you'll be through a winter months, and then when things happen again, if you look at kind of a lot of the big businesses or the most successful businesses like FedEx and Uber, they all were kind of created during recessions.

即使在困难时期，也有公司能为客户提供优质价值。

So even the bad times that there are kind of companies that can provide good value for customers.

这本质上就是商业的核心——为人们创造价值。

And that's essentially what it's all about, providing value for people.

确实如此。

Yeah, definitely.

显然这段经历对你影响很大，能说说它如何引导你发展吗？

So obviously that was quite a formative experience with money and I suppose where is that taking you in?

我很想更全面地了解一下你的职业背景。

Just be interesting to know a little bit more about your kind of career background sort of more generally.

我最初从事航运业，是一名特许船舶经纪人。

Yeah, so I started off in the shipping industry, so I'm a chartered ship broker.

主要负责油轮运输业务，在那个领域创造价值。

So originally moving tankers from a to b, essentially adding value there.

大学毕业后，我去了夜校考取了特许船舶经纪人的资格，然后转行做天然气交易。

So after university, I went to night school and get my qualifications as yeah, charter ship broker, then moved to gas trading.

我们每天买卖价值数百万英镑的天然气。

So we're buying and selling millions pounds worth of gas each day.

每天面对八块屏幕工作十二小时，我开始质疑自己是否想一辈子做这个。

So kind of eight screens around me working twelve hour days kind of questioning, do I wanna be doing this for the rest of my life?

我单日最大交易额是94万英镑，那天挪威输气管道结冰，英国遭遇极寒天气，天然气价格暴涨。

So my biggest day trade, so I was buying and selling gas was £940,000 in a day and that's where there was a pipeline from Norway which froze over and essentially, it was one of the coldest days in The UK and gas price like spiked up massively.

那是个周六早晨，我疯狂地跑去办公室观察市场动向，最终不得不从法国采购天然气。

I was it was actually a Saturday morning, and I was I was kinda crazy enough to be in the office that day to to see what the market was doing and essentially had to source some gas from France.

我必须从欧洲大陆购买天然气来供应，这本质上就像股市的供需关系。

So I had to buy some gas from from the continent to provide essentially think of it like it's all about demand supply in the markets stock market.

因为天气更冷人们都待在家里，更可能开暖气导致需求上升。

So because people are at home being it's much colder, people are more likely to turn their heating on so that demand goes up.

英国大部分天然气都依赖挪威这条管道供应。

If that pipeline from Norway, we get a lot of majority of natural gas from Norway.

如果这条管道停止向英国供气，就会出现供需失衡推高价格。

If that pipeline is not essentially supplying The UK, then there's a supply and demand imbalance, and that's gonna push the price up.

所以94万英镑的交易额真是疯狂的一天。

So, yeah, £940,000 is kind of kind of mental day.

第二天这事还上了地铁报，不是我本人，是说天然气价格涨到了1英镑，而前一周才23便士左右。

It was actually the it got it was on the Metro the next morning, and not not me, but the kind of the the gas prices went up to a pound, which was it was trading at something like 23 p the the week before.

嗯，大概就是这样。

So, yeah, it's so that's guessing.

后来我被裁员了，这反而让我有机会思考自己真正想做什么。

It actually got made redundant from from that and kinda gave me opportunity to say, actually, what do I wanna do with myself?

于是我分析了自己的优势，观察市场需求，思考人们遇到的痛点，以及我在播客里喜欢谈论的话题。

So I looked at my strengths, looked at at demand, that kind of where people have problems and what I enjoy talking about on podcasts.

于是成为了一名财务顾问，完成了所有资格考试，包括实操考试和笔试，还参加了他们所谓的加速计划。

So became a financial advisor, did all my qualifications, so practical exams, written exams, and was on a they call it like an accelerator program.

那六个月里我接受了培训，我认为最大的收获是身边围绕着志趣相投、经验相似的人。

So I was kind of in a six month where I got trained up and was in a I think the biggest learning point was surrounded by other people in the same kind of interests and experience.

你能从众多优秀的人身上学习，这种氛围会推动你做得更好。

And you learn from so many kind of great people that kind of pushes you to do to do much better.

本质上我是为百万英镑级客户提供理财建议的财务顾问，有位客户通过比特币发家，当初以几便士买入，后来涨到几千英镑。

So essentially was a financial advisor giving financial advice to million pound clients, I had a guy who was made his fortune from Bitcoin, bought Bitcoin at pence, and then it went up to kind of thousands of pounds.

他手握1500万英镑，正盘算着如何处置这笔钱。

He had £15,000,000 of kind of working out what he's gonna do do with his money.

我既为他提供财务规划，也为业余足球联赛的爸爸们出谋划策，比如是否需要保险或如何管理月薪。

So I had financial advice to him and kind of even down to kind of Sunday league football dads to a kind of working out how to if they need insurance or if they kind of how they're gonna manage their, you know, their their monthly pay.

我既指导他们，也帮助那些想省钱的人管理房产组合并合理避税。

So I was giving them advice and I was also giving advice to people who were trying to essentially save money on they've built up a property portfolio and kind of how they can reduce tax.

但内心始终有个声音在困扰我。

And I kind of had this conscience.

服务这个客户数月后，当他在墨迹未干的合同上签字时，我胃里翻腾着不安。

I'd been working with this client for months and I had this kind of conscience in the pit of my stomach, kind of client had finally signed on the dotted line before the ink dried.

我开始思考：我真的想帮富人省更多税吗？

I kind of thought, actually, do I really wanna be helping rich people save more tax?

我仿佛看到这些钱能购置多少病床、多少课本，能建多少图书馆和学校。

And I kind of envisaged how many, like, hospital beds that could provide, how many school books that could provide libraries and, yes, schools.

于是我意识到，这可能不是正确的选择。

So I thought, actually, this is probably not the the right choice for me.

另外，我写了本叫《千禧一代财富思维》的书。

So and also, I'd written a book called Millennial Money Mindset.

那家理财公司却禁止我出版。

They the financial advice company refused me to publish it.

他们不允许我发表它。

They didn't allow me to publish it.

所以我实际上经历了一个《甜心先生》式的时刻，带着我的金鱼缸走出来，尝试并创立了一家名为MoneyTips的公司。

So I was actually I kind of walked out Jerry Maguire moment with my kind of goldfish bowl and trying to and started a company called MoneyTips.

那是三年前的事了。

That was three years ago.

所以我们现在专注于教育。

So we now focus on education.

也就是教人们如何更好地使用他们的钱。

So teaching people how to make better use of their money.

我是说，甚至只是这些词汇，当你一开始谈论金融时，有些人就会自动关闭注意力，然而现实中它确实很重要。

I mean even just the words, even when you just start talking about finance, some people just sort of automatically switch off and yet in reality, it is is important.

有些人会回避谈论这个，但它对人们的生活有着深远的影响。

Some people sort of flinch from from saying that, but it has a profound impact on people's lives.

你知道，它可能导致关系破裂。

It can, you know, cause relationship breaks up.

它，你知道，可能是天壤之别——从最基本的养活自己、有地方住，到人们能否退休，尤其是千禧一代和年轻一代的人们？

It it, you know, it can be the difference between, you know, the very basic levels being able to feed yourself or being able to house yourself, people being able to retire, especially the kind of people who are millennials and sort of people of the younger generation?

最重要的启示还在于，本质上规则已经改变了。过去的财务计划很简单。

The biggest thing to take away as well is, essentially the rules have changed, So the financial plan used to be easy.

像我父母那一代，你会工作一辈子，在工作生涯结束时获得终身有保障的收入。

So my parents' generation, you'd work all your life and at the end of that working life, you'd get a guaranteed income for life.

握个手就能获得终身保障收入。

So a handshake carriage got guaranteed income for life.

本质上，这种模式已经被彻底颠覆了。

Essentially, that's been blown out the water.

所以过去能获得保障收入的人。

So the person you used to get a guaranteed income.

对吧？

Right?

他们过去称之为固定收益养老金。

They used to call them defined benefit pensions.

大多数公司会为你提供这种福利，但如今这已不复存在。

So you most companies would provide that for you, where today that's that no longer happens.

本质上，2015年出台了一项名为'养老金自由'的立法，现在个人需要自主决定如何管理自己的资金。

So essentially, there's a there's legislation in 2015 called pension freedoms, and essentially it's now you the individual are responsible for your choice of how to manage your money.

这有点像...我总把它比作开车。

So it's a bit like, I always think of it like driving a car.

本质上这是项必备技能，现在每个人都得学习。

Essentially it's an experience, everyone needs to learn this skill now.

那你有没有设定实现财务自由的年龄目标？

So do you have an age by which you'd kind of like to have achieved financial independence?

我的目标是45岁，目前38岁，已经完成了一半进度。

My goal is 45, so I'm 38 at the moment, so that's my goal, I'm kind of halfway there.

是的，这取决于...你读过很多人的案例，归根结底是生活方式问题。

Yeah, I guess it depends on, you read a lot of people about, so it all comes down to lifestyle.

你可以选择奢华或简朴的生活方式。

So you can either have a big lifestyle or a small lifestyle.

关键看你想要什么样的生活，最终取决于你的资金数额——余生需要多少开销。

So it depends on what kind of lifestyle you want and essentially it's down to your numbers, how much you need to live on for the rest of your life.

市面上出版过不少相关书籍。

So there are a number of books that came out.

具体书名就不提了，有些人住帐篷靠吃豆子过活也行，但这取决于个人想要的生活品质。

I'm not going to mention the books into but essentially they sleep in a tent and kind of live on kind of beans, which is fine, but that's it depends on what kind of lifestyle it is for each person.

我住在牛津。

I live in Oxford.

这地方确实不错，地段好，可能价格稍贵些。

It's quite nice, you know, quite an area and it's maybe a bit more expensive.

如果住在伦敦，相比住在乡村或物价较低的地区，实现财务自由可能更困难些。

Or if people live in London, it's probably not as easy to get financial independence than if you live in kind of the countryside or, you know, or a cheaper area.

所以就是这样。

So it's yeah.

归根结底，关键在于了解你的目标数字和生活方式。

Essentially, it's down to knowing your number and knowing your lifestyle.

是的。

Yeah.

不，我完全同意，因为我觉得自己可能也差不多是这样。

No, I I agree because I think so I I would say I'm probably quite similar.

我不是那种挥霍无度的人，我会储蓄并投资相当一部分收入。

I'm not a I'm not a lavish spender and I do save and invest a a reasonable amount.

但与此同时，我也不想天天只吃烤豆子过活。

But at the same time, I'm not I'm you know, I don't wanna be eating sort of baked beans every day.

我也很享受，虽然现在不行，但平时会去看戏剧、见朋友这类活动。

You know, I do I do also enjoy, you know, obviously, we can't at the moment, but, you know, going to the theater and and sort of seeing friends.

我觉得有时候会有这种压力，尤其是在财务自由圈子里，总想着要把所有开支压缩到极致。

And I think sometimes there can be this pressure, especially within kind of financial independence circles of, you know, really trying to cut down everything as much as possible.

但我认为这需要平衡，要确保自己能享受这个过程。

I just think, you know, it is a balance and, you know, you wanna make sure that you kind of enjoy enjoy the journey and enjoy the process as much as possible.

你觉得要实现财务自由，在心态方面最重要的是什么？

But what do you think is important to sort of achieve FI in terms of kind of the the mindset?

因为在我参与的很多讨论中，人们都特别强调要具备某些价值观甚至特定的心理状态。

Because in a lot of conversations that I've had, that is something that people have really emphasized actually having certain sort of values or even a kind of a certain state of mind.

确实如此。

Exactly.

所以我的书名叫《千禧一代的金钱观》

So my book is called Millennial Money Mindset.

想要收获果实，必先扎根土壤

If you want the fruits, you need the roots.

所以本质上，就是这样的

So essentially, it's yeah.

一切都与心态有关

It's all about mindset.

我认为在投资中，心态占80%，技术只占20%

I think mindset essentially is 80% what in for investing and 20% technical.

这就是为什么我说更重要的是心态

So that's why I so it's more about mindset.

同时，这也关乎于——你需要有目标来塑造自己

And also, it's about, you know, what makes you what you you need goals as well.

最好是那些能让你主动起床去实现的目标，而不是被待办事项推着走

It's and it's better to have goals that kind of pull you out of bed rather than kind of getting pushed by your kind of to do list.

所以我认为关键在于观察现状，更关注意义、目标和幸福感

So I think it's about looking at what's happening it's more about meaning and purpose and happiness.

本质上，我是从FIRE运动开始的，即财务自由提前退休

So essentially, I started off with my FIRE journey, so financially independent retire early.

后来我顿悟了——其实我在书里也写过这点

And I kind of came to I guess my epiphany was actually and I write about this in my book.

这并不一定意味着要提前退休

It's not necessarily about retiring early.

我更倾向于从FIRE转向FISH（财务独立追求幸福）

It's more about so I changed from being wanting to go from fire to go from fish.

即在财务自由的同时追求幸福

So being financially independent and seeking happiness.

对我来说，更重要的是追求快乐，真正明确自己的目标与意义，拥有这样的初始方向并清楚自己想要到达的地方，这对我影响深远。

So it's more for me, it's more about being happy and trying to actually say what's my purpose and meaning and having that kind of goal to head towards initially and knowing where you wanna get to was really powerful for me.

差不多就是这个意思。

That was kind of yes.

所以本质上，是的，这并不一定意味着要提前退休。

So essentially it's, yeah, it's not necessarily about kind of retiring early.

随着年龄增长，我逐渐明白了这一点。

As I've got older, I've kind of realized this.

我觉得很大程度上是关于，他们怎么说来着？

I think a lot of it is about, what do they say?

明白你的'为什么'。

Knowing your why.

没错，正是如此。

Yeah, exactly.

我的意思是，确实是这样。

I mean, that's yes.

西蒙，他叫什么来着？

Simon, what's his name?

对。

Yeah.

明白你的'为什么'。

Know your why.

但这极其重要。

But that is super important.

我觉得要明白，是的。

Think to know yeah.

在我的书里也提到过，我讨论了一个日本概念叫IKEA（注：此处应为IKIGAI，可能是口误）。

Think so in my book as well, I talk about is a Japanese concept called IKEA.

本质上，就是认清你的目标。

Essentially, it's knowing your know your purpose.

这又回到我之前谈到被裁员时的话题。

So that's coming back to what I talked about when I got made redundant.

我当时想，我的优势究竟是什么？

I was like, actually, what am I strength?

我擅长什么？

What am I good at?

问题出在哪里？

What's what where's our problem?

我能如何帮助他人？

What how can I help people?

我能通过什么获得报酬？

What can I get paid for?

人们愿意为什么买单？

What will people pay?

后来我意识到被裁员时缺失的第四步——直到离开后成为理财顾问才明白——就是思考如何为世界创造价值、推动进步。

And then I guess the fourth step that I was missing when I kind of got made redundant, I kind of only realised that after leaving becoming a financial adviser, essentially, is how you can add to the world and how you can improve things.

所以我设计的资产配置游戏融入了联合国可持续发展目标。

So my game of formation asset allocation uses the UN sustainable goals.

联合国提出的17个目标，本质上就是当今世界面临的17个最大问题。

So there's 17 goals that United Nations have come up with, essentially the 17 biggest problems that the world are facing.

这个游戏不仅教你实现财务自由，还教你管理资产，更重要的是引导你寻找人生意义——去关注这17个联合国目标，这些我们当前面临的最重大课题。

And essentially so the game not only teaches you how to become financially independent, it also teaches you how to manage your assets, but it also teaches you essentially to find your why to try and look at these 17 of UN goals, these 17 kind of biggest problems that we kind of face today.

每当我和别人聊起对财务自由的兴趣时，人们总会下意识觉得这话题有点无聊——这又回到我们之前讨论的金融话题给人的普遍印象。

Whenever I talk to people about being interested in, you know, financial independence, people just automatically just think, it's just it's a bit boring, suppose, when that that kind of goes back to what we were saying about finance stuff in general.

但他们也会自动认为这完全只关乎金钱。

But they also kind of automatically think that it's all just about money.

我觉得真正有趣的是，虽然钱显然很重要，但实际上远不止于此。

Whereas what I find really interesting is that actually, obviously the money is important, but actually it's about so much more than that.

而且非常强调成长、学习、个人发展，以及某种程度上的教育和增长。

And there is so much of an emphasis on on growing, on learning, on personal development, on sort of education, on on growth.

就是，对。

It's it's, yeah.

这远比简单地获得25倍收入、投资跟踪基金然后收工要宽泛得多。

It's a lot more kind of broader than just right, you know, get 25 times your income, invest them in tracker funds and and sort of that's it.

是的。

Yeah.

确实是这样。

It's about yeah.

自由也是相当重要的一点。

Freedom as well is a quite important thing.

这样你就能选择为快乐而工作，而不是被迫工作。

So you can actually have the the choice to work for joy or work for work because you have to.

所以关键在于拥有这种选择和自由。

So it's about having that choice and freedom.

没错。

Yeah.

不，我认为自由绝对至关重要。

No, I think freedom is absolutely massive.

我已经和人们反复讨论过很多次了。

And I've I've talked about it with people time and time again.

我觉得很多对财务自由感兴趣的人都是这样。

Think it's a lot of people who are interested in financial independence.

对。

Yeah.

我注意到的一点是，这些人都有一个共同点——他们非常重视对个人时间的自由支配权。

One thing that I've noticed is that they are all people who very much care about having freedom and autonomy over your own time.

好的。

Okay.

虽然我们对财务自由持积极态度，但我要提出一些批评者常对财务自由倡导者提出的质疑。

So we've we've been really positive about financial independence, but I'm gonna ask some of the questions that critics would do often throw at people who espouse financial independence.

主要有两种批评声音。

So there's sort of two main critiques.

第一种观点认为，财务自由主要适用于收入远超英国平均薪资水平的人群。

And I suppose the first one is FI is only possible for mainly sort of people who earn well above the average UK salary.

坦白说，这类人群主要是金融城的男性从业者、科技行业工作者，比如工程师这类职业。

Let's be honest, mainly men who work in the city, who work in the tech industry, you know, who work as engineers.

这是第一类批评意见。

So that's kind of one criticism.

第二种批评声音是：实现财务自由看起来需要付出太多艰辛努力。

And then the next criticism is, to be honest, achieving financial independence, it just seems like too much hard work.

就像在陡峭的山坡上艰难前行，本质上是个延迟满足的过程。

You know, it seems like a real tough mountain decline, you know, very much an exercise in deferring gratification.

万一最终没能成功，或者你认为自己无法成功呢？

You know, what if you don't make it or you don't think that you're going to make it?

对于这两类不同的批评意见，你有什么样的回应？

What's kind of your response to those sort of two separate criticisms?

嗯，问得好。

Yeah, great question.

这里面其实包含了两个很棒的问题。

There's two great questions there.

我们先从第一个问题开始。

So let's start with the first one.

我和《这位女孩谈钱》的艾莉做了一期关于投资性别差距的精彩访谈。

I did a really good interview about the investment gender gap with Ellie from This Girl Talks Money.

我有个播客叫《千禧一代金钱观》，我们深入探讨了养老金投资中的性别差距问题。

I've got a podcast called Millennial Money Mindset, we kind of looked into, yeah, the kind of investment pension investment gender gap.

其中一些发现真的让我震惊。

And some of the findings were really shocking to me.

我原本完全不知道。

I didn't know.

这些数据太疯狂了——比如直到1970年代，女性没有男性签字都拿不到抵押贷款。

I didn't and essentially, it's kind of crazy stats with, like, until, like, 1970, women couldn't get a mortgage without signature of a man.

这简直难以置信。

It's like, it's crazy.

对吧？

Right?

说实话我特别幸运，对自己所处的境遇充满感恩。

I mean, I've been I've been super lucky and I kind of really appreciate where I have been.

我大学毕业时很幸运没有现在人们那种沉重债务，现在一学期学费就要9000英镑。

So I I'm super lucky that I came out of when I was out of university, I didn't have kind of crippling debt that people have today, like £9,000 for a term.

这太夸张了。

It's kind of crazy.

所以我特别感激自己已经还清了学生贷款，这对很多人来说是个巨大的障碍。

So I'm super grateful that I'm my student debt is paid off because that's kind of a massive hurdle for people to get over.

如今人们依然面临真实挑战，但只要你能提供价值，身份根本不重要。

There are still kind of real challenges today that people are facing as long as you provide value for people, then it doesn't matter who you are.

就算你是绿色外星人，只要能提供足够价值，人们照样会为你的产品买单。

If you're even if you're green and alien that you provide enough value for people, people will pay for your product.

我认为财务自由可能并非人人都能实现。

I think FI, it probably isn't necessarily achievable for everyone.

也许，你知道，很多人可能并不一定想要财务自由。

Maybe, you know, plenty of people probably don't necessarily want to be financially independent.

但我认为这些原则很重要，而且我认为任何人都至少能理解这些原则。

But I think the principles are important and I think anyone can at least understand the principles.

我觉得，你知道，哪怕只是拥有一个应急基金——特别是现在这个时期，我真的感到非常震惊。

I think, you know, even just having, you know, an emergency fund and I think especially at the moment, I mean, I was really staggered.

前几天我在某处读到——具体数据记不清了——但有很大比例的人如果失业，可能不到两个月，甚至不到一个月就会耗尽积蓄，这很可怕。

I think I was reading somewhere the other day and I can't quite remember what the statistics were, but I think the the amount of there's a very high proportion of people who they were to lose their jobs, I think within two months or in fact, I think even less than that, probably a month, they would have run out of money and that's scary.

是的。

Yes.

英国有1150万人储蓄或投资不足100英镑，这是来自理财建议服务的数据。

11,500,000 people in The UK have less than a £100 in savings or investing and that's a money advice service that came from.

但从积极角度看，这个数字曾经是1600万，说明这些年有所改善。

But it from a positive point of view, it was 16,000,000 and it's so it's improved from a number of years.

所以我们正在进步。

So we are getting there.

我希望通过这类播客不断强调应急基金的重要性，以及建立自动转账储蓄系统的作用。

I hopefully I'm I'd like to think that me rattling on on these kind of podcasts about how important an emergency fund is and how saving setting up an automatic payment system to yourself.

本质上，我有一套五步金钱心态调整法，这能帮助人们提升。

Essentially, there's I've got a five step method to money mindset and that's that helps improve people.

归根结底，我们讨论的是有意义的财务目标。

Essentially, it's it comes down to we talked kind of about purpose meaningful.

本质上，当人们日常入不敷出时，这会引发心理健康问题，使人承受压力——你之前提到的关系问题也确实非常重要。

Essentially, like people are struggling day to day where they're not kind of making ends meet and it's brings down to like coming down and coming down to mental health and it comes down to putting people's stress under stress and yeah, you mentioned earlier about relationship issues, which is yeah, super important as well.

所以没错，金钱是工具，关键要学会使用这个工具。

So yeah, there are money is a tool and it's learning how to use that tool.

显然你正在实现财务自由的路上，你觉得这个过程有什么缺点吗？

You know, obviously you're on this this journey and you know, to achieving financial independence and I guess are there any downsides to that?

你是否有时会这样想，哦，你知道吗？

Do you have days where you kind of think, oh, do you know what?

我就是特别想花钱。

I just really want to spend.

我想我走的是一条与众不同的路。

I guess I'm taking a different journey than most of it.

所以我开始自己创业，我觉得这有点像，可能压力会更大。

So I'm starting my own business, which I think is kind of like, I think it like a maybe a higher stress level.

这有点像，从孩子变成父母的过程，你得转变金钱观念。

It's a bit like, yeah, I think it starting your own business a bit like becoming moving from, you know, being moving to a kind of a parent a child to a parent where you've got kind of your money mindset.

你得处理各种账单和开支，而不仅仅是自己的开销，这比打工压力大多了。

You have to kind of, you know, pay invoices, pay other things rather than just having your own it's kind of increased stress level compared to having a job.

不知道这样说是否清楚，但确实，自己当老板就是这样的。

I don't know if that makes sense, but, yeah, having your own business.

你总会担心生意能不能撑下去。

And you kind of worry if is your business gonna survive?

大概就是这样吧。

Think of it like yeah.

所以你的压力确实会更大。

So it's you have more stresses than yeah.

现在哪还有什么真正稳定的朝九晚五工作呢？

Just if you've got essentially a stable I guess, who has a stable nine to five job anymore?

也许不能说更轻松，但我现在38岁，已经储蓄投资二十多年了。

I guess it's maybe I wouldn't say easier, but when I was I I'm 38 now, so I've been kind of saving, investing for over twenty years.

当年有固定工作时，我只需自动把10%存入养老金账户，现在有自动缴费计划就更省心了。

So for me, it was easier when I had a kind of a job that I would just put 10% away into you would have a, you know we have auto enrolment pensions these days, so you don't you kinda need to think about it.

但我想最终都取决于你想以多快的速度达成目标。

But I guess it all comes down to how quickly do you want to get there.

如果你想承担更多风险，正如我所想，在我书的第四章里，我谈到了投资旅程。

So if you want to take more risks, so I think of it, so chapter four of my book, I talk about the, we talk about investment journey.

这就像踏上公路旅行。

It's like going on a road trip.

所以这有点像选择你的交通工具。

So it's a bit like choosing your vehicle.

你可以选择缓慢的风景路线，也可以选择市场的起伏波动。

So you can either choose the kind of the slow scenic route or you can kind of choose the ups and downs of the market.

也就是那种更快的车。

So and the kind of the faster car.

正如我之前所说，我设定了一个相当雄心勃勃的目标——45，这很有挑战性，也很远大。但我选择了更雄心勃勃的路线，因为这对我而言是个人的目标。

So I've kind of gone I've got quite an ambitious target of, as I said before, 45, which is quite pushy, quite ambitious, but yeah, I've I've gone the kind of the kind of more ambitious route because it's a for me, because it for me, it's a personal goal.

每个人都有自己的目标。

Like, everyone's got different goals.

没有对错之分。

It's not right or wrong.

其他人可能会选择，比如跑马拉松或者享受更多假期作为目标。

It's so other people might choose, you know, their goal might be to, you know, run a marathon or to have go have more holidays.

这完全没问题。

It's that's perfectly fine.

这不是对错的问题。

It's not it's not right or wrong.

我想这取决于每个人。

I guess it's just depending on each person.

每个人都是独立的，养老金只是你余生所需的生活费。

So each person is individual, but pension is just how much you need to live on for the rest of your life.

本质上，一旦你知道了你的数字——总支出乘以25，基本上那就是你需要的金额。

Essentially, once you know your number, your total expenses times 25, essentially that's that will be your number.

一旦你达到那个目标，那就对了。

And once you hit that, then yeah.

但我想说，人们使用的计算器大约是4%的比例。

But I mean, the calculator people use is kind of 4%.

也许我不该在这么短的播客里深入讨论这个，不过是的，请务必看看那个视频《千禧一代金钱观》在YouTube上，或者听听我的播客《千禧一代金钱观》。

Maybe don't I'm not gonna get into it on a kind of a short podcast, but yeah, I I can please, yes, have a look on that video, Millennial Money Mindset on YouTube or have a listen to my podcast as well, Millennial Money Mindset.

如果你想获取更多信息，直接访问moneytips.co.uk网站，非常棒。

So if you want more information or just go to moneytips.co.uk Brilliant.

听众朋友们，希望你们喜欢这期播客节目。

Well, listeners, I hope you've enjoyed this podcast and show.

如果喜欢，请给我的频道点赞订阅。

And if you enjoy, then please like and subscribe to my channel.

感谢收听。

Thank you for listening.

如果你喜欢这次访谈，请务必订阅我的频道。

If you've enjoyed this interview, then please do subscribe to my channel.