如何战胜冒名顶替综合征

大家好。我们清楚地听到了你们希望获得某个特别主题的建议，现在有个激动人心的消息要告诉大家。我们正在策划一个关于可修复问题的系列节目，帮助大家提升职场自信，而这需要你们的帮助才能实现。在建立和保持工作自信心方面，你们最迫切的问题和困扰是什么？请拨打234，即(234) 349-2253，告诉我们你们的想法。

Hello, everyone. We heard you loud and clear that you wanted advice on a special topic, and we have some exciting news for you. We're now planning a series on fixable to help you with your confidence at work, and we need your help to make it happen. What are your most pressing questions and problems when it comes to building and maintaining confidence in your job? Please give us a call at 234 That's (234) 349-2253, and let us know what's on your mind.

我们迫不及待想听到你们的反馈。

We can't wait to hear from you.

冰棒、洒水器、凉爽的微风。说到清爽，这个夏天还有什么同样令人耳目一新？没错，就是Verizon的全新手机。

Popsicles, sprinklers, a cool breeze. Talk about refreshing. You know what else is refreshing this summer? A brand new phone with Verizon. Yep.

在MyPlan中选择以旧换新，任何套餐均可获得新手机，并在任何MyPlan套餐中锁定三年低价。无论新老客户，人人可享此优惠。今天就前往Verizon，获取我们最优惠的手机deal。三年价格保证仅适用于当时的基本月费。所有优惠均有附加条款和条件。

Get a new phone on any plan with select phone trade in in MyPlan, and lock down a low price for three years on any plan with MyPlan. This is a deal for everyone, whether you're a new or existing customer. Swing by Verizon today for our best phone deals. Three year price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate only. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers.

有没有觉得作为一名营销专业人士，你只是在对着虚空说话？天啊。天啊。但通过LinkedIn广告，你可以确信自己正在触达正确的决策者——实际上是一个拥有1.3亿人的网络。你甚至可以按职位头衔、行业、公司、资历、技能来定位买家，我说过职位头衔了吗？

Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just Speaking into the void. Boy. Boy. But with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers, a network of a 130,000,000 of them, in fact. You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company, seniority, skills, and did I say job title?

了解如何通过LinkedIn广告避开虚空，触达正确的买家。首次广告活动消费$250，即可获得$250信用额用于下一次。立即开始：linkedin.com/campaign。条款和条件适用。

See how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Get started at linkedin.com/campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

本节目由Progressive Insurance赞助。你是否曾考虑过更换保险公司以节省开支？Progressive让你轻松查看通过捆绑房屋和汽车保单是否能省钱。立即在Progressive.com尝试。Progressive Casualty Insurance Company及关联公司。潜在节省金额会有所不同。并非在所有州都可用。

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it at Progressive dot com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates Potential Savings Will Vary Not Available in All States

您正在收听的是TED出品的播客《可修复》。我是主持人安妮·莫里斯，一名企业建设者和领导力教练。

You are listening to fixable, a podcast from TED. I'm your host, Anne Morris. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.

我是联合主持人弗朗西斯·弗莱，哈佛商学院教授，也是安妮的妻子。

And I'm your cohost, Frances Fry. I'm a Harvard Business School professor, and I'm Anne's wife.

本节目致力于探索如何修复问题。相信问题可以修复是实现目标的重要前提——这种信念也被称为自信。这就是为什么本季特别系列中我们决定聚焦自信主题。上周我们邀请了伊恩·罗伯逊博士探讨自信背后的科学原理。这场对话让我们受益匪浅，相信你们也会有所收获。

This is a show where we figure out how to fix things. Believing that you can fix them is a big part of getting there, which is also known as confidence. This is why we decided to focus on confidence as part of a special series this season. Last week, we spoke to doctor Ian Robertson about the science behind confidence. We got so much out of that conversation, and we think you will too.

强烈推荐大家去收听。

So definitely check it out.

后续我们还会邀请更多优秀专家，但也希望听到大家的想法和问题。请继续拨打或发送短信至234，号码是(234) 349-2253，或发送邮件至Fixable@ted.com。

And we have additional great experts ahead, but we also wanna hear your thoughts and your questions. So please keep calling and texting us at 234 That's (234) 349-2253, or you can shoot us an email at Fixable@ted.com.

弗朗西斯，今天只有我们两人，我们将深入探讨一个让许多人陷入困境的自信问题——冒名顶替综合征。这样安排如何：我们先花时间厘清这个概念，因为现在人们动不动就提这个词，而准确定义将有助于我们修复这个问题。既然这是可修复的，我们就要解决它。

Frances, today, it is just the two of us, and we're gonna go deep on an aspect of confidence that we see trip a lot of people up, which is the phenomenon known as impostor syndrome. Alright, Frances. This is how I propose we do this. I wanna spend some time on what impostor syndrome is because this it's a phrase that people throw around all the time, and I think it's gonna help us fix it to have a a better understanding of what it is. And I wanna fix it because this is fixable.

接着我们还要讨论冒名顶替综合征的各类衍生形态，这能帮助我们识别自己或他人身上的类似现象。你觉得怎么样？

And then I want us to talk about some of the cousins and variants of impostor syndrome because it's gonna help us spot it in ourselves and in other people. How does that sound?

安妮，我喜欢这个框架，因为它通过准确的诊断给出聪明的处方，我们确实需要对冒名顶替综合症进行准确诊断。然后我们会提供一些相当巧妙的解决方案，包括把它的'表亲们'也请到桌面上来。

I love this frame, Anne, because it's an accurate diagnosis yields a clever prescription, and we really do need an accurate diagnosis of impostor syndrome. And then we're gonna have some pretty clever prescriptions, including bringing the cousins to the table.

是的。这就是我们今天要深入探讨的内容。我们将讨论冒名顶替综合症以及一些

Yeah. That's what we're gonna get into today. We're gonna talk about impostor syndrome and also some

它的近亲，包括完美主义者。除了完美主义者，冒名顶替综合症的家族成员还包括独行侠、超级英雄和专家，我们要邀请他们所有人参加这个聚会。

of its close cousins, including the perfectionist. In addition to the perfectionist, impostor syndrome's family tree includes the soloist, the superhero, and the expert, and we're gonna invite all of them to this party.

好的，弗朗丝。今天我们有很多内容要讨论，让我们直接开始吧。弗朗丝，作为开场，为什么这个问题值得我们关注？为什么要花时间研究这个？

Alright, France. We've got a lot to do today, so let's get right into it. Frances, just to get us started here, why is this a question that we care about? Why spend time on this one?

哦，因为它影响着我们中的许多人，而且它是可以解决的。完全如此。

Oh, because it affects so many of us, and it's fixable. Totally.

我在准备这个节目时看到一些可靠数据，显示高达百分之八十的人会在人生某个阶段经历冒名顶替综合症。你觉得这个数据符合实际情况吗？

I I saw some data when we were prepping for this show, credible data that said up to eighty percent of people experience impostor syndrome at some point in their life. Does that ring true to you?

确实如此。我认为大多数人偶尔会经历，而有些人则是永久居民。

It does. I mean, I think most people visit it occasionally, and some people are permanent residents.

永久居留权并非免费。那么为此付出的生活代价是什么呢？天啊。是的，所以这是一个相当沉重的代价。

And permanent residency is not free. So what's the cost of living with this? Oh my goodness. Yeah. So it it's a pretty grave cost.

这就像一场内心游戏。充满了自我怀疑，最终可能导致职业倦怠。它不会仅仅停留在

It's like an internal game. There's loads of self doubt. It can eventually lead to burnout. It doesn't just stay

工作场合，也会跟着你回家。所以这是一个24.07美元、3.65美元的事情。

on the job. It comes home with you too. So it's a $24.07, $3.65 thing.

也许我们可以稍微探讨一下这个话题，因为我对'综合症'这个词有些矛盾心理。正如你所说，它确实像是一种暂时状态——在我们建立自信的过程中，挑战之一就是有时会出现信心危机。有时会出现这种冒牌者的能量，但它并不是某种定义我们在世界上身份的心理疾病。

Well, maybe let's pull on that thread for a second because I find myself a little ambivalent about this word syndrome because it does feel like a temporary state, to your point, that it's one of the challenges as we build our way to confidence is that sometimes we have a crisis of confidence. Sometimes there's this impostory energy that shows up, but it's not some kind of psychological illness that that defines who we are in the world.

不，确实不是。我确实认为这是一种扭曲场，至少这有助于我的大脑理解它。我们对现实有着扭曲的看法，我认为通过今天的会议，我们将能够帮助很多人克服他们的扭曲场。但我觉得回溯这个词的起源会有所帮助。

No. Indeed, it isn't. I really do think a distortion field, at least that's what helps my brain understand it. We have a distorted view of reality, and I think by the end of this session today, we're gonna be able to help loads of people overcome their their distortion field. But I think it would help to go back to the origin of the word.

五十多年前，两位杰出的心理学家保琳·克朗斯和苏珊娜·艾姆斯发表了一篇题为《高成就女性中的冒牌者现象》的论文。后来这个说法被简化为更吸引人的'冒牌者综合症'。所以是这两位女性发现了它，她们并没有

So it was more than fifty years ago that two amazing psychologists, Pauline Clance and Suzanne Emmes, they wrote a paper called the impostor phenomenon in high achieving women. And that later got shortened to the catchy impostor syndrome. So so these two women found it. They didn't

给标题命名。

call title.

是的。是的。嗯，他们当时并没有称之为克兰斯-埃姆斯综合征对吧。我们稍后会看到，当时更常见的是以人名来命名。相反，他们只是识别出了这种现象。

Yeah. Yeah. Well, they didn't call it the Clance Emmes syndrome Right. Which we're gonna later see is was much more common at the time to name it after people. Instead, they just identified the thing,

然后人们开始用一种 catchy 的方式来称呼这种现象。所以我认为首先一点是，这已经存在了五十多年。它始于学术界中成就非常高但自认为不够优秀的女性。是的。这对心理学家在七十年代写的原始论文题目是《高成就女性中的冒名顶替现象》。

and then people started referring to the thing in a catchy way. So I think that that's the first thing is that this has been around for more than fifty years. It started with women in academia who were really high achieving, but they thought they weren't. Yeah. The original paper that this pair of psychologists wrote in the seventies was the impostor phenomenon in high achieving women.

而且正如你所说，他们访谈了100多位非常出色的学者，全是女性，并注意到存在——我喜欢你用“扭曲”这个词——存在这种认知扭曲，它是这些女性内心体验中的一个共同线索。我认为也有充分数据表明，这种现象可能且确实会发生在任何人身上。它在女性中更常见。在给职场带来多样性的人群中更常见，就像X置身于满屋Y中，你更可能看到这类疑问。

And and to your point, they talked to more than a 100 kick ass academics, all female, and they noticed that there was I like your word distortion. There was this cognitive distortion that was a thread in the internal experience of these women. And I think there's also good data around the fact that it it can and does happen to anyone. It is more common in women. It's more common among people who are bringing difference into the workplace, x's in room full of y's, you're more likely to see these kinds of questions.

我应该在这里吗？我配在这里吗？人们会不会发现我其实不该在这里？是的。

Should I be here? Do I deserve to be here? Are people gonna find out that I shouldn't, essentially? Yeah.

如果你属于多数群体或处于权力中心，虽然也可能有冒名顶替综合症，但从概率上讲，比你属于弱势群体或代表性不足群体时的可能性要小。

If you're in the majority or in the center of power, while you can have impostor syndrome, probabilistically, you're less likely to than if you're the less powerful or the more underrepresented.

是的。我确实认为这些体验最清楚地被理解为扭曲。什么是扭曲？它是我们对自己讲述的关于正在发生的事情的故事，但与现实相背离。好吧。

Yeah. I do think these experiences are most clearly understood as distortions. And what's a distortion? It's a story we're telling ourselves about what's happening that diverges from reality. Alright.

那么我们来剖析一下。

So let's break it down.

是的。所以我发现第一步很有帮助的是要认识到，我们并非唯一的认知扭曲场，还存在另一个更为活跃的扭曲场——即我们高估自身能力相对于现实的情况。如果我们低估自己，那么还存在另一种高估自己的综合征和扭曲。这个现象没有获得一个朗朗上口的名字。它最早在1999年由两位学者发现，并以他们的名字命名。

Yeah. So I find that the first step that's helpful is to know that we are not the only distortion field in town, And that there is another distortion field, which is actually quite a bit more vibrant than ours, and that is where we overestimate our abilities vis a vis reality. So if we're under appreciating ourselves, there's another syndrome, another distortion that's overappreciating themselves. It did not get a catchy name. This one was first identified in 1999 by two academics, and they called it after themselves.

所以他们称之为

So they called

可能并没有经历冒名顶替综合征。

probably not experiencing impostor syndrome.

他们没有。我们不确定，但我觉得不是。因此，在介绍这一现象的里程碑式论文中，他们以各自的姓氏将其命名为邓宁-克鲁格效应。

They were not. I we don't know for sure, but I don't think so. And so in the landmark paper that introduced it, they also named it the Dunning Kruger effect after each of their last names.

所以这是相反的认知扭曲。

So that's the opposite cognitive distortion.

正是相反的。

It's the opposite.

在某种程度上我的能力。为什么你在帮助人们应对冒名顶替综合征时，觉得这一点如此有用？因为当我们讨论这个替代方案时，是的。

My abilities in some way. Why do you find this so helpful when you are working with people on impostor syndrome? Because when we To talk about this alternative Yeah.

我认为是现实。因为首先，我们都知道有些人正遭受邓宁-克鲁格效应的影响。他们出现在我们参加的每一个会议中，我希望人们意识到，当你无意识地选择低估时，还有其他人正在无意识地选择高估。如果我们都选择准确评估，岂不是更好？所以有时候，更容易在别人身上看到相反的情况，或者觉得，哇。

I think reality. Because one is because first of all, we all know people who are suffering the Dunning Kruger effect. They're in every meeting we're in, and I want people to realize as you're unconsciously choosing to underestimate, there are other people that are unconsciously choosing to overestimate. Wouldn't it be better if we all chose to estimate accurately? And so sometimes it's easier to see it to see the opposite in someone else or be like, woah.

我希望你收敛一点。不过你知道吗？哇。我倒希望你再放开一些。

I'd like you to dial it back. Well, you know what? Woah. I'd like you to dial it up.

明白了。所以我们看到这实际上是一种选择，当我们通过镜子（或无论用什么恰当比喻）审视时，它确实是一种扭曲。我想我明白了。

Got it. And so we see that it's actually a choice, that it is actually a distortion when we kind of look at it through the mirror, or whatever the right metaphor is here. And I think Got it.

我喜欢称之为无意识的选择，因为我不确定人们是故意这么做的。但在本次会议之后，当我们给你一些替代方案时，你将会故意选择继续这样做。

I I like to say unconscious choice because I'm not sure that people are deliberately choosing to do it. But after this session, you'll be deliberately choosing to continue doing it when we give you some alternatives.

好的。那么，让我们关注那80%，如果这是比例划分的话。我们是八二开。我们要关心我们中经历过冒名顶替综合征的80%的人。我如何知道...我是否...好问题。

Okay. Well, let's focus on the 80%, if that's the split. We're the eighty twenty. We're gonna we're gonna care about the eighty percent of us who've experienced impostor syndrome. How do I know if if I am Good question.

正受这种扭曲场的影响？

Subject to this distortion field?

我不确定我们能准确地在自己身上识别出它。但如果你认为自己有冒名顶替综合征，那你很可能就有。嗯。这是第一点。但任何时候进行任何自我诊断时，去找那些了解你、关心你的人问问他们。

I'm not sure we can recognize it in ourselves accurately. But if you think you have impostor syndrome, you probably do. Mhmm. That's first number one. But anytime there's any self diagnosis, go to people who know you and love you and ask them.

嗯。而且他们甚至不需要使用'冒名顶替综合症'这个词。你可以使用临床定义。在扭曲的海洋中，你是否觉得我高估了自己的成就、低估了它们，还是正好准确？看看人们会得出什么结论。我相信我们向他人展示的远比向自己展示的要多，但或许对自己却不够坦诚。

Mhmm. And they and you don't even have to use the word impostor syndrome. You can use the clinical definition. In the in the sea of distortions, do you get the sense that I am overestimating my accomplishments, underestimating, or I'm just right on target, and see where people come out. I believe we are revealing it a lot more than to everyone else, but perhaps not to ourselves.

那么让我们来和那百分之八十在生活中某个阶段经历过这种情况的人聊聊。我怎么知道我正在以这种方式扭曲我的现实？有哪些线索表明我可能正在经历冒名顶替综合症的症状？

So let's talk to the eighty percent of people who who have experienced this at some point in their lives. How do I know if I am distorting my reality in this way? What are some clues that I might be, you know, experiencing the symptoms of impostor syndrome?

我喜欢这个问题，因为我几乎从未思考过它。人们带着自我诊断的冒名顶替综合症来找我，我帮助他们克服它。所以我不确定我是否帮助过任何人诊断它，但这是你在辅导中做的事情。所以让我问问你。

I love this question because I almost never think about it. People come to me with a self diagnosis of impostor syndrome, and I help them overcome it. So I'm not sure that I've ever helped anyone diagnose it, but that's what you do with your coaching. So let me ask you.

是的。我认为线索就在定义中。如果你经常经历自我怀疑，如果有一个以焦虑形式出现的、担心被揭穿的故事情节闯入你的脑海，如果你将成功完全归因于你无法控制的因素。我认为这些是你可能受到这种扭曲场影响的线索。

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, it it the clues are in the definition. So if you are regularly experiencing self doubt, if there's a storyline that pops into your head in the form of anxiety about being found out, if you are attributing your success, you know, entirely to factors with that that are outside of your control. I think these are these are clues that you might you might be subject to this kind of a distortion field.

这很有共鸣，因为当人们自我诊断后来找我谈话时，他们确实使用那种语言。

That resonates because when people have self diagnosed and they come and talk to me, they do indeed use that language.

好的。休息之后，弗朗西斯，我们将深入探讨这个问题。我们将继续讨论如何解决冒名顶替综合症的策略。我喜欢

Okay. After the break, Frances, we're gonna get into this. We're gonna move on to strategies on how you fix impostor syndrome. I love

任何对话中可解决的部分。本节目由Square赞助。你知道是什么让一个社区有家的感觉吗？是那些成为我们日常生活延伸的特殊场所。对我来说，没有什么比去当地的咖啡店和社区餐厅更惬意的了。

the fixable part of any conversation. This episode is brought to you by Square. You know what makes a neighborhood feel like home? It's those special places that become extensions of our daily lives. For me, there's nothing quite like visiting my local coffee spot and neighborhood restaurant.

这些不仅仅是企业。它们是社区的支柱，在这里你会偶遇邻居，咖啡师记得你的点单，第一次约会在这里发生，商业交易在拿铁咖啡旁达成。这些社区瑰宝，正是让我们的社区蓬勃发展的关键。当我们光顾本地消费时，这些资金就留在了我们的社区，支持着那些让我们这片区域变得特别的人们。

These aren't just businesses. They're community anchors where you bump into neighbors, where the barista knows your order, where first dates happen and business deals get made over lattes. These neighborhood gems, they're what make our communities thrive. When we show up and spend locally, that money stays in our neighborhood, supporting the people who make our area special.

Square很自豪能与全球超过4,000,000家社区企业合作，帮助它们更好地服务社区。把这则广告当作一个借口，去支持你最喜欢的本地小店，在社区里度过美好的一天。你可以访问square.com/go/fixable了解更多信息。但在那之前，先去支持你最喜欢的社区小店吧。你会很高兴你这么做了。

Square is proud to partner with over 4,000,000 neighborhood businesses worldwide, helping them serve their communities better. Take this ad as an excuse to go support your favorite local spot and have yourself a day in the neighborhood. You can go to square.com/go/fixable to learn more. But before you do, go support your favorite neighborhood spot. You'll be happy you did.

Square，社区见。本集由Ambetter Health赞助播出。团体健康保险常常让企业陷入困境。如果你是企业主、首席财务官或人力资源主管，这听起来可能很熟悉：秋天到了，你发现明年的团体健康保险费会更贵，可能贵很多。

Square, see you in the neighborhood. This episode is brought to you by Ambetter Health. Group health insurance can put businesses in a tough position. If you're a business owner, a CFO, or an HR leader, this is probably going to sound familiar. It's fall and you find out your group health insurance premium will be more expensive next year, maybe by a lot.

和往常一样，你必须为所有员工选择一家保险公司和几个计划，但每个员工都有不同的医疗需求、不同的预算和对医生的不同偏好。此外，保险公司的网络可能无法覆盖所有员工居住的地区。幸运的是，现在有一种新方法。它叫做ICHRA（个人覆盖健康报销安排），这是一个改变游戏规则的方案。ICHRA让成本可预测，通过稳定的税前供款和更大的风险池来实现。

And as usual, you have to pick one carrier and a few plans for all of the employees, but they each have different medical needs, different budgets, and different preferences for doctors. Plus, the carrier's network might not be strong where all employees live. Fortunately, there's a new approach. It's called an ICHRA, or ICHRA, and it's a game changer. ICHRAs make costs predictable, with stable pre tax contributions and a larger risk pool.

而且它让健康计划个性化，因为员工可以从任何保险公司购买适合自己需求的任何计划。你决定贡献多少，他们选择适合他们的方案。是时候了，对吧？想要掌控自己的保险，就选择ICHRA。了解更多请访问ambetterhealth.com/ICHRA。

And they make health plans personal, because employees can buy any plan that fits their needs from any carrier. You choose how much to contribute, they choose what works for them. It's about time, right? For coverage you control, plan on an ICHRA. Learn more at ambetterhealth.com ICHRA.

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好的。我迫切想解决这个问题。那么让我们来谈谈你见过的、能帮助人们摆脱这种虚假现实的有效方法。我先提供一个非常实用的技巧：当我们承认自己没有准确看清现实时，

Okay. I am anxious to fix this. So let's get into the things that you have seen work for people to break out of this false reality essentially. So I'll give one really practical technique to begin with, which is when we acknowledge that we are not seeing reality accurately,

我们想要做的是获得一个我们相信的、对现实的准确描绘。对吧？所以我想做的是，用对真实情况的记录来替代我脑海中那些扭曲事物的心理游戏，这样我就可以在任何时候选择去审视脑海中的心理游戏，或者查看准确的记录。这件事很酷的地方在于，即使我们也会受到扭曲场的影响，我们仍然可以保持准确的记录。当我们想明白这一点时，我简直惊呆了。

what we wanna do is get an accurate portrayal of reality that we believe in. Right? So what I wanna do is substitute the mind games that are going on inside my head to distort things with a an accounting of what's really going on so that I can, at any point in time, choose to visit the mind games in my head or go look at the accurate record. The cool thing about this is that we can keep an accurate record even though we are also subject to distortion fields. This blew my mind when we figured it out.

惊呆了。这正是我问题的核心，是的。我们如何克服我们不是可靠叙述者这一事实？是的。当我们处于这种状态时？因为我们无法可靠地提供准确记录。就像，到底是什么？那是什么东西？

Blew my That's the heart of my question is how Yeah. How do we get over the fact that we're not reliable narrators Yeah. When we're in this state? Because we're not reliable about an accurate record. Like, what what is the what is the thing?

所以获得的方法

So the way to get

一个准确的记录，即使是我们这些会扭曲事实的人，如果我们在当下进行记录，也能给出准确的记录。所以我希望我们在当下创建一个关于事情进展如何的记录，而我们发现的是，我们在当下非常准确。也就是说，客观表现和我们的主观评估在当下是非常接近的。只有在时间拉开距离后，我们才会开始感觉自己像个骗子，以及你提到的其他事情。所以我建议，让我们采用一种技巧，一个模板，我们定期填写，并且在当下容易获取。

an accurate record, even we, distorters, can give an accurate record if we do it in the moment. So I want us to create a record in the moment about how things are going, and what we have found is that we're pretty darn accurate. That is the objective performance and our subjective assessment are quite close to each other in the moment. It's only when the distance of time that we start feeling like we're frauds and the other things that you said. So what I recommend is let's have a technique, a template that we fill out in a regular basis that's easy to access in the moment.

例如，假设我想在一周内解决冒名顶替综合症。我可以想象每天记录对我重要的任何绩效指标，并且我会实时给自己在这些指标上打分，也许一天一次，也许下午一次、早上一次，也许一小时一次。然后我会给自己一个评估。结果会证明这将非常接近准确。如果我这样做五天，到一周结束时，冒名顶替综合症可能会悄悄出现。

So for example, let's say that I wanted to solve impostor syndrome in a week. I could imagine having a record each day on whatever performance metrics matter to me, and I'm gonna give myself grades real time on those performance metrics, maybe once a day, maybe once in the afternoon, once in the morning, maybe once an hour. And I'm gonna give myself an assessment. It's gonna turn out it's gonna be very close to accurate. If I do that for five days, by the end of a week, impostor syndrome can creep in.

也就是说，如果没有我的记录，如果你只是问我，我可能会充满那种综合症。但如果你让我打开记录本，问，记录本上怎么说？那么，现在就没有综合症了。所以就是这样。是的。

That is if you just without my record, if you just ask me, I could have all of that syndrome. But if you let me open the book and say, what does the book say? Well, now there's no syndrome. And so it's Right. So that's yeah.

那么让我举个例子。假设我在一个典型的办公室，我经常在会议场合感觉到这种情绪悄悄出现。那么我就打算整整一周，就我在会议中的贡献给自己打分。这是你说的一个例子吗？

So let me just use an example. So I'm in a typical office, and I feel this creep in often in a meeting setting, for example. And so I'm just going to grade myself on my contribution to meetings for an entire week. Is that an example of what you're

在谈论什么？这就是我们正在讨论的一个例子。

talking about? That's an example of what we're talking about.

我正在评估会议中的贡献质量。会议结束后，我就把这个记在笔记本上。你的观点是——我知道我想详细描述一下，因为我见过你运用这个方法，它让我感到非常震撼，这居然真的有效。

And I'm grading quality of contribution in the meeting. And so the meeting ends, and I just jot this down in a notebook. And then your point is and I know I'm I wanna describe it in detail because I've seen you work with and it blows my mind that this It works.

对吧？这个简单的方法居然有效，让你感到不可思议。

Right? It blows your mind that this simple technique works.

确实如此。所以我真的很想给大家一个清晰的使用指南。你说它有效的原因之一是，如果你在周末问我‘你这周在会议中的贡献怎么样’，我可能会说‘糟透了’。因为你知道，我不可信。

This and it really does. So I really wanna give people a Yeah. Just a, like, to really clear to using it. What you are saying is one of the reason it works is because if ask me at the end of the week, how did you do on contributions to meeting You're gonna say terrible. You know, because because I cannot be trusted.

对，对吧？我也受这种综合征影响。但实时记录的话，如果我们够快，就能跑赢它。我们可以

Right. Right? I'm subject to this syndrome. But in real time, for like, if we're fast enough, we can outrun it. We can

跑赢它。事实上，你得到的不是一个证明你很差的数据点，而是40个数据点，它们会真实反映情况。我不知道你在会议中表现是好是坏，但如果你表现好，数据会 disproportionately 偏向好的一面；如果表现差，也会 disproportionately 偏向差的一面。我能说的是这些数据是准确的，而你每周的自我评估却是不准确的。

outrun In fact, you'll have instead of one data point that you're inferior, you're gonna actually have 40 data points that's gonna show now I don't know if you were good in meetings or not, but if you were, they'll be disproportionately good. And if you were bad in meetings, they'll be disproportionately bad. What I can say is they'll be accurate, whereas your weekly assessment is going to be inaccurate.

明白了。你其实是在解决认知扭曲中的失真部分。就像是，好吧，让我们用实际数据替换这里的臆想，开始把我们的思维从这种扭曲中拉出来。这对你来说是一个惊人的发现吗？

Got it. You're really solving for the distortion part of cognitive distortion. You're like, okay. Let's replace the story here with some actual data, and start to pull our minds out of this. And what was an amazing finding for

我们过去需要经历如此繁琐的过程来获取数据，但我们发现即使是受认知扭曲影响的人，如果当场记录也能准确收集数据，这让这变成了一个DIY项目。就像，我们可以自己克服冒名顶替综合症。

us is we used to go through such laborious processes to get the data, and we found that even the distortionists could accurately collect data if they did it in the moment, and that has just made this like a do DIY project now. Like, we can get over impostor syndrome on our own.

你建议在这里找个责任伙伴吗？我应该和别人一起评分吗？这样会有用吗？

Do you recommend, like, an accountability partner here? Should I be scoring this with someone else? Can that be useful?

我觉得如果你发现和别人一起评分更准确，那就这么做，但必须是在当下进行。所以不要为了找个好伙伴而违反'当场记录'原则。

I think if you find yourself to be a more accurate scorer with someone else, do it, but it's gotta be in the moment. So don't violate the in the moment to get a really good companion.

明白了。

Got it.

所以明白了。你可以想象两个人都受到这种认知扭曲影响，而且你们经常参加类似的会议，那你们会成为很好的搭档。

So Got it. You could imagine two people that both subject that, you know, are both subject to the distortion, and you're in a lot of similar meetings, you'd be pretty good buddies.

是的，是的。好吧。所以你可以在这里找个朋友。

Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So you can find a friend here.

没错。只是不要违反原则——不要让时间流逝，因为一旦进入认知扭曲场，什么都救不了我们了。

Yes. Just don't violate the don't don't let the time elapse because nothing can save us for the distortion field then.

对。好的。所以你可以在这里打电话给朋友。是的。你是这个意思吧。我希望你

Right. Okay. So you can phone a friend here Yeah. Is what you're saying. I'd like you to

已经坐在他们旁边了，不过是的。

be sitting next to them already, but yes.

明白了。而且你不想——你不想浪费时间？我真的不想。因为你想让这个朋友保持亲近。是的。

Got it. And you want no you want no time? I really don't. Because You wanna keep keep this friend close. Yeah.

不。我懂。每时每刻，人们都很奇怪。是的。时间不是你的朋友。

No. I get that. Every moment, people weird. Yeah. Time is not your friend.

你在这个扭曲场中待得越久，不断质疑自己，你就越有可能相信自己实际上是个冒牌货。你经历过冒名顶替综合症吗？

And the more time you spend in this distortion field where you're constantly questioning yourself, the more likely you are to believe that you're actually an impostor. Have you ever experienced impostor syndrome?

我觉得没有。

I don't think so.

是的。我觉得你在那20%里。

Yeah. I think you're in the 20%.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得你属于那20%。这种情况总是在我毫无察觉的情况下悄悄出现，就像，一点一点地渗透进来。

I think you're in the 20%. This is this creeps up on me, like, all the time without without realizing it. Like, little, like, little pieces of it.

不。实际上，如果

No. In fact, if

这种症状的任何方面，比如，飘进我的认知领域。如果有什么的话，我从未...我觉得你属于这罕见的百分之二十。为什么不呢？好吧，让我先说，你是，比如，一位女性学者。你处于，

anything of the syndrome, like, float into my cognitive field. If anything I've never I I feel like you're part of this kind of rare twenty percent. Why not? Well, let me first You're you're, like, a female academic. You're in,

就像，高风险群体，你

like, the high risk you're

属于这个高风险类别。是的。就像，这在学术界非常普遍。是的。

in this high risk category. Yeah. Like, this is rampant in academia. Yeah.

那么，首先，如果你问我更可能经历哪一种，邓宁-克鲁格效应还是冒名顶替综合症，那肯定是邓宁-克鲁格。说实话。而且，你知道，就像，选一个性别阵营站队，但我没得选，不过并不是说所有女性都会经历，我就一定会经历。让我们

So well, the first one is if you ask me which one am I likely to experience, Dunning Kruger impostor syndrome, it's Dunning Kruger. Let's be honest. And, you know, my, like, picking a gender camp go one or the other. I don't get to pick, but I'm not it's, you know, if the ladies all experience it, doesn't mean I always experience it. Let's be

很模糊。这些分类很模糊。

It's fuzzy. These categories are fuzzy.

是的。是的。它们非常模糊。但在我自己的扭曲视角中，我确实觉得，离某件事越久远，我越容易给它加上光环。所以我认为如果我自认为很客观，那可能是一种邓宁-克鲁格效应

Yeah. Yeah. They're they're very fuzzy. So but I do think that in my distortion field, the longer away I am from something, I tend to put more of a halo on it. So I do think I have a dunning if I think I'm very objective

随着距离。但我确实随着距离，

With distance. But I do with distance,

事情只会变得更好。就像我把沉默解读为掌声，而别人把沉默解读为担忧。

it just gets better. It's like how I interpret silence as applause. Other people interpret silence as concern.

对。对。所以我见过其他有效的分类，我在想这些是否与你有共鸣。一个是这个完整的类别。我们在节目里以前讨论过这个。

Right. Right. So here are other categories I have seen work, and I'm I'm wondering if they resonate with you. So one is this whole category. We've talked about this before in the show.

与那个内心的批评者保持一些健康的距离。比如，我很喜欢迪克·施瓦茨关于内在家庭系统的研究。我觉得非常解放，真的很有趣。让我们给批评者起个名字。

Creating some healthy distance from that inner critic. Like, I love Dick Schwartz's work on internal family systems. I find it so liberating. It's really fun. Let's name the critic.

邀请他们参加会议。把他们赶出去。说服他们。让他们离开驾驶座。我觉得这个比喻非常美妙、令人愉悦，而且对我来说感觉非常具有可操作性。

Let's invite them into the meeting. Let's kick them out. Let's talk them down. Let's get them out of the driver's seat. I find the metaphor just wonderful, delightful, and it it feels very actionable to me.

综合征这个词的一个问题在于，它暗示了一种非常黑白分明的状态，就好像你要么处于其中，要么不在其中。有时这个声音会突然出现并开始对我大喊大叫。有时它更安静。有时我会听。有时我不会。

One of the problems with the word syndrome is it suggests this kind of very black and white, like, you're in it or you're not in it. Sometimes this voice pops up and starts yelling at me. Sometimes it's quieter. Sometimes I listen. Sometimes I don't.

就像，这实际上是一种比综合征这个词所暗示的要流动得多、变化多端得多、更加灰色地带的情况。弄清楚我与那个声音的关系，并意识到我与那个声音确实存在一种关系——明白这并不一定是我最高尚、最优秀的自我在这些时刻喋喋不休——我发现这是一种非常赋予力量的应对这种经历的方式。

Like, it is a much it's a much more fluid, much more variable, much kind of grayer situation than the word syndrome suggests. And figuring out what my relationship is to that voice and realizing that I have a relationship to that voice, that this is not necessarily, you know, my highest and best self that is yapping in these moments. I I find that a very empowering way to relate to this experience.

是的。对此我想说的是，你的解决方案是为那些过着经过审视的生活的人准备的。而我的解决方案是为其他所有人准备的。

Yeah. What I would say to that is that your solution is the solution for people that live an examined life. My solution is for everyone else.

好的。那么我再给你两个类别。

Alright. So let me give you two more categories.

好的。我很期待。

Yeah. I look forward to it.

第一个，我认为，是重置你与失败的关系。所以这就是

One, I think, is resetting your relationship with failure. So this is

是的。

Yeah.

或许少些未经审视的生活，多些卡罗尔·德韦克的成长型思维。我们如何将挫折视为学习机会，而不是你描述的那种反向数据验证——那些'我不该在这个房间'、'我不该做这份工作'、'我不配在这里'的数据，这恰恰是我们默认进行的数据验证。然后当出现问题或当我不可避免地搞砸时，大脑就会过滤成：看吧，我早说过会这样。

Maybe less examined life and more Carol Dweck, growth mindset. How do we treat setbacks as opportunities to learn instead of the opposite data exercise that you described, which is data that I shouldn't be in this room. I shouldn't be in this job. I don't deserve to be here, which is kind of the default data exercise we're doing. And then when something goes wrong or when I screw up as I inevitably do, then it gets it gets filtered through my brain as, see, I told you so.

你本就不配这个职位。

You didn't deserve this position.

所以我确实认为，我们如何应对失败——哪怕是会议中的小失误，比如用词不当之类的小失败——如果用'下次如何做得更好'的好奇心而非'天啊我没做好'的评判来对待，我敢说那种自我批判会加剧冒名顶替综合征，让认知扭曲的范围变得更广。

So I do think our how we respond to failure, even small f failure in the meeting, I didn't use the right words, you know, just whatever the small f failure is. I do think if we do it with curiosity about how I might do it better next time versus judgment, oh my gosh, I didn't achieve, I bet the judgy version of us, like, widens the impostor syndrome. It makes the distortion field wider.

是的。我觉得这正好体现你我处于这条分界线的两侧，如果这是一条...没错，如果这是一个光谱的话。

Yeah. And I think this is where I experience you and I on being on the other side of this, like, line if this is a Yeah. If this is a spectrum.

哦，我们变成二维矩阵了。45度角的虚线，完整的分析图表都出来了。

Oh, we're to two by two. We got a 45 degree angle dotted line. We got the whole graphic.

但是你知道，当会议不顺利，或者我意识到会议上犯了错时，这对我的冲击会比你更大——你根本不会想到这是因为你不该参加这个会议。对你来说，这种结论简直荒谬到不可思议。

But but something, you know, a meeting won't go well or or there I I'm aware of a mistake in a meeting, and it will hit me harder than you like, it would never occur to you that it was because you were not supposed to be in a meeting. That would be such an absurd conclusion to read.

我能准确分辨是小石子还是大巨石，而你有时会把小石子错当成大巨石。

I can accurately tell if it's a pebble or a boulder, and you will sometimes mistake pebbles for boulders.

百分之百同意。我觉得这也是我非常喜爱我们亲爱的同事艾米·埃德蒙森的工作以及她最近出版的书《正确的错误》。我认为，从方向上看，大多数人与失败和错误的关系都不健康。所以我觉得这本书真是一份礼物，也是一项公共服务。

A 100%. I think that's it's also I love our our dear colleagues, Amy Edmondson's work and her recent book, The Right Kind of Wrong. I think, you know, directionally, most people have an unhealthy relationship with failure and mistakes. And so I think this book was such a gift in such public service.

真是一份礼物。

Such a gift.

我喜欢的其中一点是她让事情变得复杂化，你知道，错误有不同的种类，但即使是对那些好的错误、那些伟大的错误——那些教会我们关于自身、通往创新之路的错误——我们也带着同样的情绪反应。我们需要走出去犯很多好的错误，才能作为人类取得进步，但我们对失败如此厌恶，以至于我们在阻碍自己

And and one of the things I love is that she complicate there, you know, there are different kinds of mistakes, but we bring the same emotional reaction to even the good mistakes, even the great mistakes that teach us things about ourselves that are on the path to innovation. You know, we we need to be out there making a lot of good mistakes in order to make progress as a species, but we have such an aversion to failure that we are getting in our

前进。是的。她是完美传递二维性信息的人——就像成功与失败，你可以画笑脸和哭脸。但她说不，不是这样的。

own way. Yeah. She's the perfect messenger for the two dimensionality of there's, like, success and failure, and you can shoot happy face, frowny face. She's like, no. No.

有些类型的失败至少和成功一样好。

There are some types of failure that are at least as good as success.

是的。这对人们来说真是令人震惊。

Yeah. It's mind blowing for people.

令人震惊。确实令人震惊。是的。而且这是真的。一旦你接受

It's mind blowing. It's mind blowing. Yeah. And true. And once you accept

刚才那个音效，就是弗朗西丝被震撼到的声音。一旦你一旦你那样，你就会想，天哪。好吧，我想尽快

that sound effect right there, that was Frances' mind being blown. And once you once you that, you're like, oh my gosh. Well, I wanna get

达到那些目标。嗯。

to those as quickly as possible. Mhmm.

是的，是的。这真是一本很棒的书。我们向所有人推荐它。

Yeah. Yeah. It's a really cool book. We recommend it to everyone.

是的。

Yeah.

好的，弗朗西丝。假设我正在带领一个团队，我观察到团队中有人容易陷入这类想法和故事情节中。作为领导者或管理者，我能做些什么来帮助这个人吗？

Okay, Frances. Let's say I'm leading a team, and I observe someone on my team who is kind of subject to these kinds of thoughts and storylines. Is there anything I can do as a leader or manager to be helpful to that person?

这里有一个典型的例子。在哈佛商学院的课堂上，当学生们刚入学时，他们在入学前都是高成就者，他们最初都用‘我是否得到了课堂结束时我们得出的正确答案？’来评判自己。但对于那些开启课堂讨论的人来说，这不应是衡量标准。我们还有八十分钟的路要走。是的。

Here's a classic example of that. In the classroom at HBS, when students first arrive on campus and they were high achievers before they got to campus, they all initially judged themselves with, did I get the right answer that we came up with at the end of class? But that is not the metric you should use for the people that opened the class. We still got eighty minutes to travel. Yeah.

开启课堂讨论，标准应该是‘我是否让其他所有人都愿意以富有成效的方式参与进来？’而不是我是否得到了正确答案。事实上，从概率上讲，从概率上讲，如果你得到了正确答案，我们明年就不会再教那个案例了。

Open for class, it's, did I get everyone else to want to engage in it in a productive way? Not that I get the right answer. In fact, probabilistically, probabilistically, if you got the right answer, we're not teaching that case next year.

对。就像是的。所以那其实不是一门好课。不是一个

Right. Like Yeah. So That's not that's not a good class, actually. Not a

好课。是的。所以你必须根据做事的时间来评判自己。但当人们来到校园时，他们只想着我是否得到了正确答案，而不考虑我们在讨论中进行了多长时间。

good class. Yeah. So you have to judge yourself based on the time of doing it. But when people arrive on campus, they just think that I get the right answer or not and don't control for how long how long we are into the discussion.

是的。就像当你和我一起工作时，可能甚至没有意识到或将其标记为冒名顶替综合症。你知道，我一直很感激的是你总是在解决问题——让我们清晰地审视情况，让我们得出准确的结论。所以当你发现我陷入情绪中并愿意进行这样的对话时，你不是来照顾我或保护我免受那些感受，也不是告诉我我不应该有这些感受或一切都很好。

Yeah. Like, when you and when you have, I think, worked with me on this without even maybe even realizing it or labeling it impostor syndrome. You know, what what I have appreciated is you are always solving for let's look clearly at at the situation. Let's reach an accurate conclusion. So when you find me in my feelings and kind of open to this conversation, you're not coming to say, don't you know, you're not coming to take care of me necessarily or protect me from those feelings or tell me that I shouldn't be feeling things or that everything's great.

只是给你

Just giving you

一个现实的快照。

a snapshot of reality.

所以让我们谈谈现实。我知道你感觉不好，可能有理由感觉不好，但让我们看看那些我们取得进展、遇到挫折、可以学习的地方的清单。当我看到领导者真正创造环境，让像我这样的人能够克服这些自我干扰的想法并更充分地贡献时，他们正在创造一个真正的学习环境，其中包括与挫折的健康关系——这不是说你永远不会犯错，而是当你犯错时，我们学到了什么？我们能否让这种学习具有感染力？

Let so let's talk about reality. And you like, I know you're feeling bad, and there may be a reason to feel bad, but let's look at the column of, like, where we made progress, where we stumbled, what we could learn. And when I see leaders really creating environments where people like me kinda get over our these self distracting thoughts and contribute more fully, they are creating a true learning environment that includes a healthy relationship with setbacks, which is not that, oh, you're never gonna make a mistake. But what when you make a mistake, what did we learn? Can we make that learning infectious?

我们在这里的工作是让明天比今天更好。你知道，正是建立这种文化，我认为我们真正为人们在这一方面的成功奠定了基础。

Our job here is to be better tomorrow than we are today. You know, it is building that kind of culture where I think we've really set people up for success on this one.

是的。我注意到和你互动时，你有时会在某些会议后产生这种扭曲场，我从不知道什么会触发它。不是好事坏事的数量问题，而是有某种东西触发了你的扭曲场。

Yeah. And what I noticed when I interact with you because you do sometimes have the this distortion field after some meetings, and I never know what's gonna trigger it. It's not the volume of good and bad. It's something triggered the distortion field for you.

而我完全不知道是什么让那个贱人从座位上站起来。

And what I don't totally know what gets that bitch out of her seat.

不知道。也许，是的，也许我们应该开始留意，这样就能当场发现。我也不知道，因为我总是很惊讶当我

No. And maybe, yeah, maybe maybe we should start paying attention so we can see it in the moment. I don't know either because I'm always surprised when I'm

我要为我妈妈再说一遍，这样你就不用说脏话了。我不知道是什么让那个内心批评者从座位上站起来。我不知道。你知道吗？就像，我也不知道。

gonna say that again for my mother so you don't have to use bad language. I don't know what gets that inner critic out of her seat. I I don't know. You know? Like, I don't either.

总是

It's always

让我感到意外。总是很意外。但是，但是，如果我对你做的——你是一个表现非常出色的人，成功概率极高，只是偶尔会有小石子挡路，但你会把小石子扭曲成巨石——我没有任何把小石子从石子状态扭曲的行为。我不会假装它们不存在。是的。

a surprise to me. It's always a surprise. But but if if if what I do with you, which is a very high performing person with a wildly high probability of success, but with occasional pebbles in the way, but you distort pebbles to boulders, I don't I don't do any I don't do anything to distort pebbles from being pebbles. Like, I don't pretend they're not don't exist. Yeah.

我把它们当作小石子来讨论，并讨论所有发生的加速因素。然后你得到一份准确的成绩单，接着你就放下它了。所以我认为重要的是我们不要为了处理问题而扭曲现实。我们只需展示现实。冒充者综合征患者需要的正是一个准确看待现实的角度。

I talk about them as the pebbles, and I talk about all of the accelerants that happened. And then you get an accurate report card, and then you're and then you let go of it. So I think it's important that the we don't distort reality to handle it. We just show reality. That's all people with impostor syndrome need is an accurate view of reality.

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欢迎回来。我们已经定义了冒名顶替综合症。我们已经找到了解决方法，并且我们将做好准备，以便更精准地在自己和他人身上识别它。为此我们将通过认识它的表亲——冒名顶替综合症的变体来实现。这是Valerie Young博士部分出色的研究成果。

Welcome back. We have defined impostor syndrome. We have figured out how to fix it, and we are gonna set ourselves up to spot it more precisely in ourselves and other people. So we're gonna do this by meeting the cousins, the variants of impostor syndrome. This is, some of doctor Valerie Young's terrific work.

Prince，我想在这里逐一说明。先从完美主义者开始吧。

And, Prince, I wanna just one by one here. So start us off with the perfectionist.

是的。我认为冒充者综合征最突出的近亲就是完美主义者。现在可能超级常见。对，超级常见。

Yeah. I think the most prominent cousin of impostor syndrome is the perfectionist. Now could be Super common. Yeah. Super common.

可能是患有冒充者综合征的人或其他人，但你会在他们身上观察到这一点。但这就是完美主义者。完美主义者，如果我能用最简洁的方式总结，他们认为世界只有两种状态：完美无缺或彻底失败。是的，没错。

And could be someone who's has impostor syndrome or someone else, but it that you're gonna observe it in. But it's the perfectionist. And the perfectionist, if I can summarize it in the crispest way possible, the perfectionist thinks there are two states of nature, flawless or failure. Yes. Yep.

这是多么令人身心俱疲的处世方式啊。没错。它自成一体的扭曲力场。现在我会想，天啊，原来有这么多认知扭曲。

What a debilitating way to go through the world. Yep. Its own distortion field. And right now, I'm gonna be like, oh my gosh. There are all these distortions.

难道我们不想给那些认为世界非黑即白（要么完美无缺，要么彻底失败）的人撒点魔法粉，让这种想法消失吗？因为追求完美会耗费一整天，让你其他什么事都做不成。你不太可能实现完美，但可以肯定的是，你也很难完成任何其他事情。

Now wouldn't we like to sprinkle magic dust on the person who thinks there are two states in the world, flawless or failure, and and make that evaporate? Because flaw like, the quest for flawless is gonna take all day, and you're gonna get nothing else done. You're unlikely to achieve it, but for sure, you're unlikely to accomplish anything else.

我认为人们对完美主义的误解在于，它更多是为了逃避失败，而非追求完美。因为它表面上是在追求完美，但认知扭曲在于，认为错误和失败会暴露‘我不属于这里’的事实。对吧？这种误解在于认为错误的代价太高，以至于我要竭尽全力避免它们、掩盖它们、不让别人发现、假装地心引力对我不起作用。

What I think people get wrong about perfectionism is it is more about escape from failure than pursuit of the perfect. Because the it presents as pursuit of the perfect, but the the cognitive distortion is that mistakes and failure are going to reveal that I don't belong here. Right? It's that miss it's that mistakes are so costly that I'm going to avoid them, use all of my energy to avoid them, cover them up, keep other people from them, pretend that gravity doesn't apply to me.

是的。我特别喜欢‘逃避失败’这个说法，因为这确实是本质。如果你认为世界只有两种状态（完美无缺或彻底失败），你就会千方百计地追求完美，以免成为失败者。不惜一切代价。不惜一切代价。

Yeah. I I love the it's an escape from failure because that's indeed what it is. If you think there are two states to the world, flawless or failure, you're gonna try to be flawless so that you are not a failure. By any means necessary. By any means necessary.

而且几乎总是，这个过程过于劳心劳力，因此作为一个完美主义者，你在世界上取得的成就将远少于那些不受这种二元论束缚的人——他们更将其视为一个连续谱，并意识到为你提交的论文纠结字体选择根本无关紧要。你可能会花上一个月——抱歉，但有人确实会花

And almost always, it's way too laborious, and so you will, as a perfectionist, accomplish so much less in the world than other people that are unburdened by that binary and see it much more as a continuum and realize that worrying about which font you selected for the paper that you submitted is gonna matter. You could spend a month sorry. But one could spend a

一个月都在思考这个问题。你知道吗？其他人都在竞争字体和糟糕字体，那是一个非黑即白的世界，我会坚守这个立场至死不渝。

month thinking about that. And you know what? Everyone else they're competing Fonts and bad fonts, and that is a black and white world that I will live in and die on.

好吧。当你们当那些人在低效地做这件事时，知道我们其他人正在做什么吗？发明火种。不。

Okay. Well, while you while people who are are inefficiently doing that, you know what the rest of us are doing? Inventing fire. No.

我知道。我知道。并且获取反馈。获取早期反馈。这个现象又回到了我们学术界女性的话题上。

I know. I know. And and getting feedback. Getting early feedback. And this is a phenomenon back to our women in academia.

这个现象确实。你从职业生涯初期就观察到，这种完美主义本能会导致女性花费

This is a phenomenon that Yeah. You you have observed from the beginning of your career that this perfectionist instinct would lead women So much

长得多的

so much longer. To take

长得多的时间来写论文。与此同时，男性把东西抛出来，获得反馈，共同产出更好的结果，真正在学习，而女性却剥夺了自己这样的机会。

so much longer in in writing the paper. Meanwhile, the men were putting stuff out there, getting feedback, co producing better results, and really learning, and the women were denying themselves that opportunity.

这就引出了第二个近亲问题。第二个近亲是独奏者。所以在你刚才的例子中，女性在追求完美的过程中独自奋战，而男性在追求足够好、追求可发表论文的过程中并非孤军作战。

Which leads us to the second cousin. And the second cousin is the soloist. And so in the example you just had, the women are doing it alone in their quest for perfection, and the men are not going it alone in their quest for good enough, in their quest for this is a publishable paper.

没错。这里的问题在于我认为自己不能寻求帮助。寻求帮助是软弱的表现。这再次会暴露我不属于这里。

Right. And the flawed story here is I cannot ask for help. Asking for help is a sign of weakness. It again, it will reveal that I don't belong here.

所以说到你的逃避行为，完全正确。我是在逃避与求助相关的软弱感，这甚至不能称之为认知扭曲，简直就是赤裸裸的错误。我认识的每一个取得巨大成就的人，没有一个是单打独斗完成的。一个都没有。

And so to your escapist thing, that's exactly right. I'm escaping the weakness associated with help, which is I don't even wanna call that a distortion. It's just baldly incorrect. I don't know a single person of great accomplishment that got it without help. Not a single one.

所以你知道，更明显的模式是，那些在组织中持续晋升的人，他们真正擅长的是寻求帮助。

So you know The what pattern is even stronger that the people we see, like, continuously rise in organizations are they truly excel at asking for help.

并且建立毫无顾忌的文化。毫无顾忌地创建能够提供帮助的生态系统。想想看，你一个人要对抗我和所有我能动员来帮助我的人。你获胜的概率有多大？

And creating Shameless. Shameless and creating ecosystems that could help. And just think about it. You alone are gonna compete against me and all the people I can galvanize to help me. What is the probability you have of winning?

我直接归零。所以问题在于，独行侠能达到的上限非常有限，这很可悲，因为你本拥有实现目标的所有原始条件。

I'm gonna round it off to zero. So Right. The problem with the soloist is that you will have such a mediocre ceiling that you can achieve in the world, and that's so sad because you had all of the raw materials to get there.

这对组织来说代价巨大。因为除了人们无法充分发挥潜力外，问题不能及时上报，学习也无法形成传染效应。事实上，如果

And this comes at a huge cost to organizations. Oh. Because people in addition to people not being so far away from the frontier of what they can contribute, problems just don't get escalated at the right time, and learning, it doesn't become infectious. In fact, if

我问你，你更想要一个独行侠团队，还是一个团队合作者的团队？

I said to you, would you rather have a team of soloists or a team of team players?

给我找一个比一群出色的独奏者更平庸的团队。

Give me a more mediocre team than a bunch of fantastic soloists.

是啊。

Yeah.

好的。跟我们说说这位超级英雄吧。

Alright. Tell us about the superhero.

这种人错误地认为他们能带来的就是努力。所以无论如何，他们必须比别人更努力。这就是那个偷偷去健身房的人。这就是那个偷偷加班的人。这就是那个在暗中耗尽自己，投入所有这些额外时间的人。

This is one where it's the person has the mistaken impression that what they're bringing to the table is effort. And so by hook or by crook, they have to work harder than everyone else. So this is the person who secretly goes to the gym. This is the person who secretly stays late. This is the person who, in secret, exhausts themselves doing all of these putting in all of this extra time.

再说一次，我认为他们作为独奏者时可能这样做，但他们投入额外时间就像有参与奖一样。一旦你离开了少年联盟，就没有参与奖了，但超级英雄表现得好像还有参与奖，好像我工作更努力就能赢。但这根本不是真的。

Again, I think probably as a soloist when they're doing it, but they're putting in the extra hours as if there is a participation trophy. And once you get out of Little League, there are no more participation trophies, But the superhero is acting like there is a participation trophy, and that if I'd work harder, I win. And it's just not true.

是啊。这里的谎言——我是说，我喜欢所有这些中的谎言是什么。我也喜欢这个框架。是的。这里的谎言是，为了证明我的价值，我必须不断地超越自我。

Yeah. The the lie here I mean, I love the kind of what's the lie in all these. I like that frame too. Yeah. The lie here is that in order to prove my value, I have to go above and beyond constantly.

个人代价可能是不言而喻的。我们在节目中多次讨论过倦怠。在团队层面，我认为当这变得常态化时，显然，那些代价，倦怠的代价，以及所有这些事情的风险都会增加。但还有一种疲惫的平庸现象。没有战略优先级排序。

The individual cost is kind of self evident, maybe. We've talked a lot about burnout in the show. And at the group level, I think when this becomes normalized, obviously, those costs, the costs of burnout, and risks of all this stuff go up. But there's also this phenomenon of exhausted mediocrity. There's no strategic prioritization.

这里没有这个任务比那个更重要的感觉，一切都像是，我们就是要…我们就是要拼尽全力。在所有事情上一直拼尽全力。是的。

There's no sense of this task is more important than this other it's all like, we're just gonna We're just gonna out effort We're gonna out effort. All the time on all of the things. Yeah.

是的。这种'更努力'的心态，你无法战胜任何真正重要的人物，而他们会过上更好的生活。因为如果你想产生伟大的想法，你必须休息充足、营养良好、锻炼得当。而那些在努力上竞争的人，早就放弃了这些。所以我认为，超级英雄们觉得他们唯一能竞争的方式就是靠'努力'这个参与奖，而我还没见过有谁真的靠这个成功的。

Yeah. And this try harder mentality, you're not gonna win against anyone of consequence, and they're gonna have a better life. Because if you want to think great ideas, you have to be well rested and well nourished and well exercised. Well, the person who's competing on effort, they have let those things go long ago. So I would say that it's the superhero thinks the only way they can compete is with the participation trophy of effort, and I have yet to meet a person for whom that's actually true.

可悲的是，他们在恐慌中掩盖了真正优秀的东西，去追求那些他们认为重要但实际上并不重要的东西。

And the tragedy is they're covering up the really good stuff in the panic to get the thing that they think matters, and it doesn't.

是的。我们听到很多领导都这么说，哦，我是通过更努力工作才走到今天的。当然，你确实工作努力。

Yeah. We hear that from so many leaders that, oh, I got here by working harder. For sure, you worked hard.

但首先，不，你不是。总有人比你更努力。对吧。总是这样。

But you first of all, no, you didn't. There's always people that are working harder than you. Right. Always.

但那不是你真正的超能力。

But that's not your true superpower.

那不是你的超能力。我希望你通过保持最佳状态来到这里。是的。我的意思是，我们现在对纵欲狂欢了解多少？是的。

And that's not your superpower. I want you to get here by being in peak condition. Yeah. I mean, what do we know about the orgies now? Yeah.

是的。他们从没赢过。他们从没赢过。

Yeah. It they never win. They never win.

好的。请专家来总结一下。

Alright. Close this out with the expert.

专家。是的。所以我认为专家是超级英雄在这方面的兄弟角色，它不是通过更努力地工作，而是通过比任何人都掌握更多关于这个话题的知识来竞争。所以他们是房间里的百科全书。没错。

Expert. Yeah. So I think expert is is a sibling of the superhero on on this part, which is instead of working harder, this is the person that is going to compete by having more knowledge on the topic than anyone else. So they're the encyclopedia in the room. Yeah.

他们只是会有更多细节、更多知识、更易获取的信息，而不是更多的判断力或创造力。是的。他们会拥有更多硬知识。我认为这个角色和其他几个一样有问题。如果在人工智能时代思考哪个角色可能会消失，那就是这个。

They're just gonna have more details, more knowledge, more accessible stuff as opposed to more judgment, more creativity. Yeah. They they're gonna have more of the hard knowledge. This one, I think, is also as problematic as the others. If I think in the age of AI, which one of these is likely to go away, it's that one.

因为人工智能让这种定位变得可笑。所以我确实认为这个角色会随着时间的推移逐渐消失。但直到现在，我们都知道有些人会想，哦，那意味着，你知道，巴拉巴拉。他们花了时间获取巴拉巴拉，他们把所有这些巴拉巴拉塞进脑袋，而我们的大脑容量有限。我总是想，天啊。

Because that AI just makes that a laughable positioning. So I do think this one is going to dissipate over time. But certainly, up until now, you we all know the person who thinks, oh, well, then that means, you know, blah blah blah. They had to take time to get blah blah blah, and they're putting all that blah blah blah in their head, and we can only fit so much in our head. I'm always like, oh my gosh.

想象一下，如果你不需要存储那些东西。你知道我们能把什么放进那个美丽的头脑里吗？

Imagine if you didn't have to store that. You know what we could be putting in that beautiful mind?

但是没错。所以但这是个谎言，这是个谎言。它和其他同类角色有着相似的谎言，那就是我必须知道。我的意思是，所有这些谎言本应保护我们安全，却 ironically 让我们更加脆弱。对吧？

But yeah. So but it's the lie it's the lie. It's a similar lie to the other to the to its cousins, which is I have to know. I mean, all of these are lies that are supposed to keep us safe that ironically ex make us more vulnerable. Right?

但这一点是，我必须知道一切才能证明我的价值。

But this one is I have to know everything in order to prove my value.

而如果我不知道，是的，如果我不知道某些事情，再次强调，这也是为什么我们称它们为表亲模式，因为你更倾向于独自应对。因为如果你真的不认为必须独自应对，你就不会觉得必须知道一切。那么为什么

And if I don't, yeah, if I don't know something and again, it's and it you can see it's also why we call them cousins because you're more likely to go it alone. Because if you really didn't think you had to go it alone, you wouldn't think you had to know everything. So why

让我问你这个问题。为什么它值得？为什么这种模式对我们有帮助？

let me ask you this. Why is it worth it? Why is this pattern helpful to us?

是的。因为当我们经历所有这些时，每个人都在点头，要么是我经历过，要么是我知道别人经历过，而这些都不是好地方。所以现在让我们回到冒名顶替综合症。你知道我们做了什么吗？我们创造了一种想要摆脱冒名顶替综合症的“我能行”精神，以及一条摆脱它的路径，即这是对现实的扭曲。

Yeah. Because by the time we go through all of these, everyone is nodding with either I've experienced it or I know others that experienced it, and these aren't good places to be. So now let's return to impostor syndrome. You know what we've done? We've created a can do spirit to wanting to get out of impostor syndrome and a path to get out of it, which is it's a distortion from reality.

所以，这就是我们需要做的一切。我们不必克服一个谎言。我们只是在扭曲现实。所以我们现在要重新与现实联系。

And so let's that's all we have to do. We don't have to overcome a lie. We're just distorting reality. So we're gonna now get back in touch with reality.

是的。很喜欢。所以我们在这里要结束了。我喜欢我们现在有了一个词汇表，因为在这一季中我们将能够反复回到它。你希望人们从这次对话中带走什么？

Yep. Love it. So we're gonna wrap this up here. I like that we have a vocabulary now, because we're gonna be able to return to it again and again in this season. What do you want people to take away from this conversation?

如果你自我诊断为冒名顶替综合症，我不希望它

If you have self diagnosed as impostor syndrome, I don't want it

成为你不可告人的小秘密。你有很多优秀的同伴。我是说，非常优秀的同伴。而且排名第一。第二点，它足够普遍，以至于你不需要采取极端手段来克服它。

to be your dirty little secret. You are in wonderful company. I mean, wonderful company. And a number one. B number two, it's ordinary enough that I you don't have to go to extraordinary lengths to overcome it.

所以不要只在凌晨两点思考这个问题。在下午两点也思考它，那时我们可以采取真正实际的步骤来克服它。

So don't think about it only at two in the morning. Think about it at two in the afternoon when we can use really practical steps to overcome it.

是的。我很喜欢这个观点。我想挑战'综合症'这个词，因为当80%的人都在经历它时，这其实是工作和生活中相当正常的体验，而且它时来时去。你知道吗？所以我们越早能在自己身上发现它，就能越早采取行动揭露这个谎言，并且按照你的观点，用更接近事实的东西来替代它。

Yeah. I love that. I I wanna challenge this word syndrome just because, you know, by the time eighty percent of us are experiencing it, it's a pretty normal experience of work and life, and it comes and goes. You know? And so the the sooner we can see it in ourselves, the sooner we can kind of take action to expose the lie and, to your point, replace it with something that is closer to the truth.

我们越早能在他人身上发现它，就能越快进行干预，让人们回到与我们的现实保持健康诚实关系的安全筏上。我很喜欢'安全筏'这个说法。当保琳和苏珊娜写到它时，她们称之为冒名顶替现象。

And the sooner we can spot it in other people, the faster we can intervene and bring people back to the safe raft of a of a healthy and honest relationship with our reality. I love the safe raft. And and when Pauline and Suzanne wrote about it, they called it the impostor phenomenon.

嗯。而当邓宁和克鲁格发现相反情况时，他们称之为效应。我不知道是谁最先称它为综合症，但他们并没有给我们带来任何好处。

Mhmm. And when Dunning and Kruger found the opposite, they called it an effect. I don't know who actually first called it a syndrome, but they didn't do us any favors.

是的。我打算称它为冒名顶替体验。

Yeah. I'm gonna refer to it as a as the impostor experience.

这就对了

There we

我就打算这么称呼它了。我太喜欢这个说法了。以后我都会这么称呼它——那种感觉自己像个冒牌货的体验。好了。

That's how I'm gonna I'm gonna call it. I love it. That's how I'm gonna refer to it going forward. The experience of of feeling like an impostor. Alright.

弗朗西斯，这就是我们今天的节目。你来念结束语好吗？

Francis, that is our show. Will you read us out?

非常感谢大家的收听。请把你们所有关于职场自信的问题都发给我们。我们非常热爱这个话题，而且这是可以改善的。当然，除了自信问题，如果你还有其他疑问也完全没问题。我们也希望能帮助你们解决那些问题，所以请继续联系我们。

Thank you so much for listening. Please send us any and all questions you have about confidence at work. We love the topic, and it's fixable. It's also okay if you have other questions in addition to confidence. We wanna help you solve those problems too, so please keep reaching out.

给我们发消息吧。发邮件、打电话或发短信到 fixable@TED.com。234 那是 (234) 349-2253。

Send us a message. Email, call, or text us at fixable@TED.com. 234 That's (234) 349-2253.

《Fixable》是由TED和Pushkin Industries联合推出的播客节目。由我，安·莫里斯，和我，弗朗西斯·弗莱共同主持。本期节目由拉希玛·纳萨制作。我们的团队包括康斯坦扎·加利亚多、班班·张、米歇尔·昆特、丹妮拉·瓦洛拉索和罗克珊·海拉什。

Fixable is a podcast brought to you by TED and Pushkin Industries. It's hosted by me, Ann Morris. And me, Francis Fry. This episode was produced by Rahima Nasa. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, BanBan Chang, Michelle Quint, Daniella Valoraso, and Roxanne Highlash.

我们的节目由Story Yard的Louie进行混音。

Our show is mixed by Louie at Story Yard.

你知道汰渍已经升级，能在冷水中提供更出色的清洁效果吗？汰渍专门设计用来对抗你扔给它的任何污渍，即使在冷水中也能做到。黄油？没问题。巧克力冰淇淋？

Did you know Tide has been upgraded provide an even better clean in cold water? Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it, even in cold. Butter? Yep. Chocolate ice cream?

没问题。烧烤酱渍？汰渍为您搞定。您无需使用热水。此外，汰渍洗衣凝珠采用全新冷酶技术，让您自信对抗顽固污渍。

Sure thing. Barbecue sauce? Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new cold Zyme technology.

请记住：要干净，用汰渍。

Just remember, if it's gotta be clean, it's gotta be Tide.

大家好！我是《工作中心播客》的格蕾丝，想和大家分享一个激动人心的消息。非常激动人心。您精打细算每一分钱，而沃尔玛商业服务能帮您把钱花在刀刃上。从办公用品到零食和清洁设备，您都能享受每日低价，外加便捷的大宗订购和快速配送服务。

What's up? Grace from the Working Hub Podcast here, and I want to tell you about something exciting. Exciting. You're watching every dollar, and Walmart business helps you stretch each one. From office supplies to snacks and cleaning gear, you'll get everyday low prices plus easy bulk ordering and fast delivery.

借助支出追踪和多用户账户等工具，保持井井有条变得简单轻松。登录 business.walmart.com 省时、省钱、省心。注册完全免费。

And with tools like spend tracking and multi user accounts, staying organized is simple. Save time, money, and hassle at business.walmart.com. It's free to sign up.

每个创意都始于一个问题。沃比帕克的问题很简单：眼镜太贵了。于是他们决心改变这一现状。通过自主设计眼镜并直接销售给客户，他们能够提供工艺精湛且价格出乎意料实惠的处方眼镜。

Every idea starts with a problem. Warby Parker's was simple. Glasses are too expensive. So they set out to change that. By designing glasses in house and selling directly to customers, they're able to offer prescription eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable.

沃比帕克眼镜采用优质材料制成，如抗冲击聚碳酸酯和定制醋酸纤维，起价仅95美元（含处方镜片）。选购用上好材料制作的眼镜。欢迎光临您附近的沃比帕克门店。

Warby Parker glasses are made from premium materials like impact resistant polycarbonate and custom acetate, And they start at just $95 including prescription lenses. Get glasses made from the good stuff. Stop by a Warby Parker store near you.