不请自来的建议：如何找到你真正想要的工作

大家好。我们清楚地听到你们希望获得关于某个特定主题的建议，现在有个激动人心的消息要告诉大家。我们正计划推出一系列可操作的方案，帮助提升职场自信，这需要你们的参与才能实现。在建立和保持工作信心方面，你们最迫切的问题和困扰是什么？请拨打234，即(234) 349-2253告诉我们你的想法。

Hello, everyone. We heard you loud and clear that you wanted advice on a special topic, and we have some exciting news for you. We're now planning a series on fixable to help you with your confidence at work, and we need your help to make it happen. What are your most pressing questions and problems when it comes to building and maintaining confidence in your job? Please give us a call at 234 That's (234) 349-2253, and let us know what's on your mind.

我们迫不及待想听到你们的声音。

We can't wait to hear from you.

所以，弗朗西斯，我觉得我该说声新年快乐。

So, Frances, I feel like I should say happy New Year.

我觉得这才是我们的新年，按照学术日历来说，

I this is our New Year, the academic calendar, which

我认为这应该是所有人的新年。我一直在思考这个问题，确实有多个理由让它成为全民的新年。首先，这个季节更适合采取大规模行动。

I think should be everyone's New Year. I have been thinking about this. I do think it should be everyone's new year for a number of reasons. One, it it's such a better season to take massive action.

天啊。你不需要穿着，比如，

Oh my gosh. You don't have to wear, like,

厚外套和靴子。你可以直接出去行动。而1月1日呢？我们那时候还在努力熬过寒冬。

a coat and boots. You can just you can just go and do it. Oh, January 1. We're just trying to survive out here. Survive.

而且假期过后，压力太大了。那个时间段真的让人喘不过气。

And after the holidays, it's a lot. It's a lot that time of

不，九月这个季节正合适。天还亮着，人们心中充满希望。

No. September, the season, it works out there. There's still light. Everybody's afraid. Of optimism.

确实如此。

It is.

这次我就放过你，这个‘感谢’就免了。

I'm gonna spare you this this Thank

提前谢谢你。无论你要放过我什么，我都心怀感激。

you in advance. Whatever you're sparing me, I'm just grateful.

在这个万象更新的季节，我决定放过你，不再强迫你进行我惯常在这个时候布置的目标设定练习了。

In this season of renewal, I'm gonna spare you the goal setting exercise I typically force you through at this moment.

天啊，你最爱设定目标了。

Oh my gosh. You love a good goal to set.

我超爱目标设定练习的。

I love a good goal setting exercise.

你还假装只是每年做一次，实际上你——

And you just you pretend you only do it annually. You do it

频繁得很。抓住一切机会，包括九月份。但这个秋天你自由了，宝贝。

so often. Any excuse. Including September. This fall, you're off the hook, baby.

谢谢。是不是因为你已经替我——

Thank you. Is that because you've set my goals for

设定好目标了？我早就搞定了。好了，欢迎回到《Fixable》，我是主持人安妮·莫里斯。

me? I've already I've already taken care of it. Alright. Well, welcome back to Fixable, everyone. I'm your host, Anne Morris.

我是联合主持人弗朗西斯·莱。今天我们带来最受欢迎的节目形式——又一期主动建议环节，这个偶尔出现的单元即将增加频率，因为我...

And I'm your cohost, Frances Rye. And today, we are back with our favorite type of episode, another installment of unsolicited advice, our occasional segment, although It's gonna be increasing for I

希望还有空间容纳其他事情。

hope there's room for anything else.

节奏正在加快。这些是我们专门向未曾询问的人直抒己见的节目环节。

The pace is picking up. These are our episodes where we just tell people who haven't asked for it exactly what we think.

这就像是我生命中的高光时刻，因为我脑海里装满了想法。是的，而我一直在压抑着。是的。

It is just like a time it's the time of my life because I have it in my head Yeah. And I'm holding it back Yeah.

一直都是这样。你有很多想分享的。

All the time. You have a lot to share.

而我...我极少有机会分享。

I and I so so rarely get to share.

我们今天要彻底放开束缚。过去几期节目我们做过类似内容，但都是针对特定公司比如波音和星巴克。而今天，我们要把观点强加给更庞大的人群——求职者们。哦，我觉得现在有大批...

We're we're we're taking the guardrails off I like to do today. In the past couple episodes we've done like this, they've been directed at specific companies like Boeing and Starbucks. But today, we wanna impose our point of view on a much larger swath of the population, which is job seekers. Oh, and I think there's a lot

求职者正在找工作。

of job seekers right now.

当前求职者数量确实庞大。根据纽约联邦储备银行数据，约30%的美国人在求职，这是自2014年3月——差不多十年前——以来的最高值。特别是相比去年20%左右的数字，这是急剧上升。

There are a lot of job seekers right now. According to the New York Federal Reserve, it's about 30% of Americans, which is the highest they've seen since March 2014, which is just about a decade ago. And specifically, it's a sharp increase from last year when that number was closer to 20%.

听起来只增长了10%，但从20%到30%实际是50%的增幅。

It sounds like it's only a 10% increase, but that's actually a 50% increase to go from 20% to 30%.

没错。而且我们看到有消息估计这个数字接近半数美国人甚至更多。天啊。要么正在积极求职，要么正认真考虑换工作。这太惊人了。

Yeah. And we've we've seen some sources estimate that number at close to half of Americans or even more. Oh my gosh. Either looking for a job actively or thinking seriously about doing it. That's incredible.

是的。目前有很多人在寻找新机会，而市场已不同于我们近期记忆中的样子。数据显示，当前经济新增就业岗位数量低于过去水平，也低于我们预期。今年夏天，职位空缺数降至三年多来最低点，劳工部本月已确认这一数据。失业率虽仍处于历史低位，但正在上升。

Yeah. So there are a lot of people looking for new opportunities, and the market is not what it used to be in our in our recent memory. So what the data is telling us now is that the economy is adding fewer jobs than it has in the past and fewer jobs than we've expected. Over the summer, job openings slumped to their lowest level in more than three years, which the Labor Department confirmed this month. Unemployment is still historically low, but it's on the rise.

利率持续高企。所有那些...你知道的，那些以预测为职业、旨在让我们安心的正统经济学家们，仍在讨论潜在的经济衰退。我们尚未完全摆脱这种风险，这说明当前存在诸多不确定性。而众所周知，人类和我们依照自身形象构建的组织都不喜欢不确定性。

Interest rates remain high. All the, you know, all the formal economists out there whose job is to make predictions and make us feel better. They're still talking about a potential recession. We're not out of the woods on that yet, which is all to say there's a lot of uncertainty out there. And as we know, human beings and the organizations we build in our image do not like uncertainty.

没错。我认为在这种高度不确定性下，组织往往会分化成两类。有些会抓住机遇——这当然是好事，但另一些则会陷入僵化。

Yeah. I think when it's got this much uncertainty, you can sort of bifurcate organizations. Some are gonna seize the day. Like, it's a it's just a wonderful thing, but others are gonna seize up. Yeah.

而且

And

你

you

明白的，通常非此即彼。因此希望我们能提供帮助，或许可以给出一些把握机遇的路线图。但必须承认，正如你所说，我们的本能反应是畏缩不前。所以需要指导大家如何真正利用这些机会。

know, usually one or or the other. And so hopefully, we can be helpful and maybe giving a bit of a road map for how to seize the day. But I will say that our natural instinct, to your point, is to seize up. And so we gotta we gotta give some guidance on on how to how to really take advantage of the of the opportunity.

很好。那么Frances，我们的讨论将这样展开：首先从心态切入——你知道我对此非常重视，然后是战术应用，以及在决定如何投入时间精力时需要考虑的事项。最后我们会留出时间，Frances，请你从公司角度谈谈招聘经理现在该如何发掘能在其工作环境中茁壮成长的人才。既然从心态开始，我们该先谈什么？

Great. So, Frances, here's where we're going. We're gonna start with mindset, which as you know, I feel very strongly about, and then we're tactical applications and some things you should consider when you're deciding how to invest your time and energy here. And then we'll save some time at the end, Frances, for you to talk about the company perspective, what hiring managers can do right now to to source the the talent that is really gonna thrive in their own workplace. So if we're gonna start with mindset, where do we begin?

Frances，你知道我人生中经历过多次转型。部分源于我对新鲜事物和变化的偏好。但更相关的是，我曾指导许多人度过他们的转型期。关于这个话题我有太多要说的——我认为我们与工作的关系承载了太多东西。

Frances, as you know, I've navigated a lot of transitions in my life. Part of it is my own taste for novelty and change. I've also coached a lot of people through their own transitions, which may be more relevant here. And so I have a lot to say on this topic. I think our relationship with work is really loaded.

这种关系承载着我们的身份认同、保护者与供养者的角色、关于自我价值和核心人生故事的认知。在求职过程中，每个人都不可避免地会触及这些深层议题。是的，没人能完全避免在这个过程中受到伤害——那些石沉大海的邮件、必然遭遇的拒绝，即使最终求职非常成功，也总有艰难时刻。

Like, is loaded up with our identities, our role as a protector and a provider, are core stories about ourselves and our own worthiness. And nobody is spared in the process of a job search from being pushed on this stuff as they go. Yeah. No one is spared of being nicked and bruised at a minimum by the indignities in this process, by the unanswered emails, the rejection that is inevitable. Even when the the job search is wildly successful, there there's there are moments that are really tough for all of us.

根据我的经验，整个游戏的关键——虽然你们可以质疑我这个说法是否夸张——就在于拒绝为这段经历中的多数事情赋予意义。如何做到不把...

And in my experience with this, the whole game and I don't think I'm overstating this, although check me on this. The whole game is about refusing to attach meaning to so much of this experience. How do you not take

为什么这么个人化？感觉人们是故意在羞辱我们。

it so personally? It feels like people are doing the indignities to us on purpose.

我是说，你知道，这就像终极的脆弱时刻，然后我们在情感上放弃了太多主动权。实际上，整个游戏就是不让我们的大脑和自尊心肆意妄为。是的。所以如果我能让人们对拒绝的反应具有传染性，我会这么做——当有人对我说‘不’时，

I mean, you you know, you're like it's like the ultimate vulnerability, and then, you know, we're giving so much power away in terms of how we feel. And really, the whole game is not letting our brains and egos just do their thing unchecked. Yeah. So if I could make contagious my reaction to people saying no, I would, which is when somebody says no to me,

我听不见‘不’。我听不见拒绝。我只听见‘现在不行’。这让我受益匪浅。我可能在这个播客里提过，哈佛拒绝了我五次。

I don't hear no. That is I don't hear rejection. I just hear not now. And that has served me very well. So I may have shared on this podcast before, but Harvard said no to me five times.

高中毕业申请被拒，本科毕业申请被拒，申请博士被拒，第一次申请教职被拒，第一次申请...我是说，我在不同阶段不断尝试。

I applied out of high school. I applied out of college. I applied to get my PhD. First time going up for faculty. First time going up for I mean, I just kept applying at all these different times.

不。不。不。不。不。

No. No. No. No. No.

没有任何一个‘不’能阻止我再次尝试。就像，我真的不把拒绝当作针对个人。我认为对方也只是凡人在做自己的考量。也许我当时可以表现更好，但我肯定可以换个时间再来。所以给他们更多信息。

There's not a single no that stops me from trying again. Like, a no I literally don't take no personally. I just think that there are mortals on the other side that are doing their own calculus. Maybe I could have presented myself better, but certainly, I can come back at another time. So Give them more information.

我可以提供更多信息。我可以包装得更漂亮。也许时机不对，但别人说‘不’就代表我的价值？我不认为人们掌握的信息足够做出这种判断。这种心态让我活得更轻松，尤其是在需要面对大量拒绝的世界里。

I can give them more information. I can pretty it up more. Maybe it isn't the right time for this, but it is this this notion that someone else saying no is at all a reflection of me. I just don't think people have enough information for me to to do that. So it I do think that that lets me go through the world in a lighter way, particularly a world world where you have to get a lot of nose.

我们需要敲很多门，比如找工作。天啊，得敲多少门。如果把每个‘不’都放在心上，那得多累人啊。

We have to knock on a lot of doors, and that's like getting a job. Oh my gosh. You have to knock on a lot of doors. Imagine if you took any of the nose personally. It would be exhausting.

或者更可能的是，我会把每个‘不’都当作针对个人——我觉得这其实是我们的本能反应。

Or probably, let me take all of the nose personally, which is I think what we're we're really wired to do.

我真的很想改变这种本能。

I would really like to fix that.

好的，我们先稍作休息。回来后，我们将讨论如何重拾力量，像弗朗西斯·弗莱那样应对求职挑战。第一阶段的目标是让你意识到自己在这个过程中的主动性和价值，因为我们在求职路上往往会低估这两点。感觉命运掌握在别人手中是个谎言——事实并非如此。

Alright. Let's take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll talk about how to reclaim your power and take on the job hunt like a Francis Fry. So the goal of this first phase is to get in touch with your own agency in this process and your own value because we tend to underestimate them, both of those things along the way in a job search. It feels like the fate of our lives is in someone else's hands, which is a lie It's not.

我们不该被这种错觉迷惑。为此，我常推荐大家做这个准备练习：列出你热爱的事情。哪些事能让你充满能量？哪些事能点燃你的激情，让你感到生机勃勃？

That we don't want to get seduced into believing. And so here's an exercise that I often recommend to people as they're gearing up for this. Write a list of the things that you love to do. Like, what are the things that are deeply energizing to you? What are the things that light you up and bring you to life?

认真思考后，下一步是审视这份清单并反思：你在哪些领域真正具备竞争力？现在把外部世界纳入考量，结合自身情况——

So really think about it. Yeah. And then the next step is to look at that list and reflect on the question of where you could be really competitive. Like, okay, now bring the rest of the world into this conversation. Think about yourself.

结合外部环境。清单上哪些事能让你成为有力竞争者？我特别喜欢推动人们思考更具挑战性的问题：你在哪些方面能达到世界级水准？比如顶尖中的顶尖。

Think about the rest of the world. Which of these things on this list could, like, could you be a contender in? Yep. And where I really like to push people because it's provocative and it often sparks thing is where could you be world class? Like, best of the best.

你真正能在哪个领域竞争？这个练习可能揭示出你从未允许自己认真发展的潜能，而现在正是最佳时机。根据我们与世界级人才合作的经验，我们发现每个通往精英级别的旅程中，都存在一个关键决策点——当事人决定追求那种卓越表现。这本质上与结果无关，而是关于追求卓越的决定。

Like, where could you really compete? And what it can uncover is that there might be something here that you haven't given yourself permission to really incorporate, and there's no better time than right now. And in our experience of working with world class talent, one of the patterns that we have seen is that there is a point in every journey to that elite level where someone just makes a decision to pursue that level of performance. And it's not about outcomes per se. It's about the decision to pursue it.

我相信地球上每个人都有这样的选择机会。当要求人们做这个练习时，他们会列出空白清单吗？通常布置这个任务后会发生什么？实际上人们常感到惊讶，因为他们此前从未允许自己这样思考。

I happen to believe that everyone on the planet has that option about something. I'm digging it. And when you ask people to do this, do they have an empty list? Like, what's the what do you typically what typically happens when you give this assignment? Well, people are often surprised because they they haven't given themselves permission to do it before.

所以他们往往很意外。

So they're often surprised.

而且...而且他们惊讶于清单的长度，也惊讶于清单上的内容。

And and and they they're surprised at how long the list is. They're surprised at what's on the list.

对清单内容感到惊讶。是的。确实有些人刚开始会对此感到困难。

They're surprised at what's on the list. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, some people have have struggled with that as a starting point.

没错。

Yeah.

好的。第三步是引入这个问题。首先，你独自一人。现在你要考虑与你竞争的外部世界，思考哪些人可能会看重你的技能组合——那些现在……

Okay. And then the third step is to bring in this question. Okay. So first of all, you're you're by yourself. Now you're bringing in the rest of the world you're competing with, and now you're thinking about who out there might value that skill set, like the the the ones Well, that now

这就像寻宝游戏。

it's a treasure hunt.

对。然后，谁可能会为此付钱给你？

Yeah. And and and then who might pay you for it?

是的。我喜欢这种方式，而不是试图逆向工程

Yeah. I like doing it that way. As opposed to trying to reverse engineer

人们需要什么

what people need

然后把自己拧成麻花去迎合。我们在这方面不会做得很好。

and then turning ourselves into a pretzel to try to become it. Yeah. And we're just not gonna be very good at that.

而且，不做这个练习就不可能开始意识到自己的价值、力量和能动性。

And there's an it's impossible to do this exercise without without starting to get in touch with your value and power and agency here.

我太喜欢这个观点了。

I love I love that.

好，这是第一部分。嗯。第二部分是，当你决定追求哪些角色时，这里有一些问题需要考虑。反思你在职业生涯中最关心什么，并深入探讨——是学习吗？

Okay. So that's part one. Mhmm. And then part two are here are some questions to think about as you get into decisions you wanna make about which roles to pursue. So reflecting on what you care most about in your career and really interrogating that, is it learning?

是安全感？还是灵活性？如果你能明确对自己最有价值的事物，并按价值排序，就能理解其中的取舍。

Is it security? Is it flexibility? If you can name the things that are most valuable to you and and then really put them in order of value, it allows you to get to the point where you can understand the trade offs.

光是这三项，就能大大缩小你不会申请的工作范围，我想这对你会非常有帮助。

Even just those three, that's gonna really help narrow the jobs you're not gonna apply for, which I have to imagine would be a really helpful thing.

是的。这和我们询问企业关于自身战略的问题是相同的。你愿意放弃什么？你的客户为了获得他们最看重的东西，又愿意放弃什么？没错。

Yeah. And I mean, this is the same question that we ask companies about their own strategy. What would you be willing to give up? What would your customers be willing to give up in order to get the things they value most? Yeah.

因为我们生活在一个受重力约束的世界。明白吗？所以存在这些非常强烈的权衡关系。在这个过程中保持清醒认知，也是你能采取的一个非常有力的步骤。我太喜欢这个观点了。

Because we live in a world where gravity applies. Right? And so there are these very powerful trade offs. So moving through this process with deep clarity about that is also a very empowering step that you can take. I I love it.

我经常推动人们思考的另一点是：你需要什么才能取得巨大成功？不仅仅是成功，而是巨大成功。过去你真正茁壮成长的环境有哪些特征？然后这些环境有哪些识别标志？因为当你评估自己是否适合某个组织、职位、团队或管理者时，这些信息非常有用。

Another thing that I often push people to reflect on is what do you need to be wildly successful? Not just successful, but what do you need to be wildly successful? What are the features of the environments where you have really thrived in the past? And then what are some tells for those environments? Because this is very helpful information when you're evaluating whether you're gonna be a good fit with an organization or a role or a team or a manager.

所以如果

So if

我们思考这个问题，为了让我能以极其成功的方式表现，我需要这些东西。我很好奇这份清单上会有什么。因为就我自己而言，我需要能在白天小睡。对我来说这至关重要。

we think about that question, is what I need in order for me to to perform in a wildly successful way. I need these things. I'm curious what kinds of things are on that list. Because if I think for myself, well, I need to be able to nap intraday. For me to be wildly successful Yes.

所以我必须有个沙发。

So I have to have a couch.

那个...我得告诉你，

That And I gotta tell you,

这确实是件大事，因为这意味着，

it it is a big deal because it's mean,

这是个具体需求，弗朗西斯。如果你需要不定时打盹，那你不可能去当公交车司机对吧？

narrowing is requirement, Frances. We're not gonna you're not gonna be a bus driver, right, if you need to take sporadic naps.

所以现在这就是我的输入方式。但再次强调，既然你问了这么多人，这份清单上通常包含哪些类型的内容？

So now so so that's what how I would enter it. But again, from your asking so many people this, what are the types of things that are on this list?

学习机会往往是重要的一项。像这样的文化要求——比如这个环境是否愿意给予人们信任？我会被天然信任吗？还是需要我自己争取？比如是否需要先熬够资历才能获得机会？

Learning is often a big one. Culture requirements like this, you know, is this an environment that gives people the benefit of the doubt? Do I is trust gonna be given to me? Do I have to earn it? Like, do I have to put in my time before I'm given the ball?

这是个需要面对面建立关系的文化吗？人们必须见到我本人才能建立信任？还是说这是个分布式办公的团队？

Is this a is this a FaceTime culture where people need the reassurance of seeing me in order to build a relationship with me, or or is the workforce distributed?

好的，所以

Okay. So that

我有自由癖好。老实说我现在几乎不适合被雇佣。所以...还是别拿我的要求当参考，估计对多数人都不适用。

I have a freedom fetish. I I'm I'm almost not employable at this point. So Yeah. Hold my requirements back because I don't think they're gonna be useful to most people.

我再验证一个点——我听到的大多与文化相关。连我的需求网也是文化产物。对，沙发。我需要有带锁门的空间里放着沙发。

Let me test another one to see if this is what I'm what I'm hearing is that most of these are cultural. Even my net, that's like an artifact of a culture. Yes. Couches. I need there to be couches with with a locked door.

没错。

Yeah.

好的，非常有帮助。我们在多期可修复节目里讨论过——如果你主动承担起识别理想环境的责任，这反而能让你重拾对局面的掌控感。

Yeah. Okay. Super helpful. And we've gotten into this on a on on a bunch of fixable episodes. But if you take responsibility for identifying this environment, that I it also kind of gets you back in touch with your power in this situation.

这也可能引出另一个问题：如果找不到现成的，能否自己创造？没错。自由职业适合你吗？零工经济是可选方案吗？

And it also might raise the question, okay. Well, if you can't find it, could you create it? That's right. Is is freelancing an option for you? Is the gig economy an option for you?

自己创业是否可行？如果找不到理想环境，能不能亲手打造？

Is starting your own company an option for you? Like, if you can't find it, could you build it yourself Which

这在某种程度上是什么？

is what in some way?

我想是的。因为我的膝盖问题太严重了。我找不到它们。所以你只能开始创业。

I think. Yes. Because of the extremity of my knees. I couldn't find them. So you just start companies.

是的。关于这点还有其他几个策略。对某些人来说，回到我们开始谈话的地方，刻意降低此刻的身份风险，把整件事当成一场游戏会很有帮助。当我指导一些人时，这确实是转变心态的有效方式。

Yeah. So a couple other tactics on this. For some people, back to where we started this conversation, it can be helpful to be very deliberate in trying to lower the identity stakes of this moment and make this whole fucking thing a game. And Yeah. When I've coached some people through this, this has been a very helpful way to shift mindset.

你的任务就是升级这个叫'求职'的电子游戏。懂吗？每发一封询问邮件并得到回复，你就得一分。这些分数可能会产生实际影响。

So your job is to get to the next level of this video game called job search. Right? So you gotta you know, every time you get an send an email inquiry and you get it answered, you get a point. You know? And maybe those points have real world like impact.

也许你能因此小睡片刻、做个按摩或吃块芝士蛋糕。把整件事游戏化不仅能激发活力、增添乐趣，还能应对那些困扰人们的生存焦虑——这些焦虑对成功求职并无裨益。我常给的另一个建议是组建求职团队，因为整个过程中真正的敌人

Maybe you get to, like, take the nap or get the massage or, like, have the piece of cheesecake. You know, like, gamifying this whole thing can be can really energizing, can be fun, can but it can also really deal with these existential questions that that can sometimes haunt people through this experience and aren't particularly helpful with setting you up for success. The other advice I often get is to build a job search team because the real enemy in this whole process

哦对，我们本不该独自面对。

Oh, yeah. We'd be doing this alone.

是孤独。没错。人类需要彼此联结。你可以组建三五人的团队作为问责伙伴，这绝非单人竞技。

Is isolation. Yeah. We need to be connected to each other as humans. Maybe you have a team of people, three, four, five people who are on this ride with you who could be accountability partners. This does not have to be a solo sport.

很好。现在我想对那些长期休假后重返求职市场的人说：找个事情做非常重要，哪怕是参与成人社区的共同使命。可以是短期合同工，也可以是志愿者。

Yeah. Great. Now I wanna address those job seekers who may be coming to the job hunt after a significant leave. If that's you, I wanna say that it can be very helpful to find something to do, even just pursue a shared mission with a community of adults. This could include maybe becoming a short term contractor, but it can also mean volunteering.

参加孩子学校的家长教师协会也行。定期在成人社区露面并为超越自我的事业贡献价值，这会彻底改变你的心态。明天就能行动。疫情期间我通过线上办公时间找到了自己的社群。

It can also mean joining the PTA at your kid's school. It really changes your mindset to be showing up in, again, in a community of adults on a regular basis and contributing value to something bigger than yourself. And you can do that tomorrow. I found my community of people over COVID when I had to do that. My office hours I think that online.

那真是个绝佳范例。

Was That's a really awesome example.

是啊。

Yeah.

它提醒你自身的价值，改变你的情绪频率，为你在面试中谈论某些话题做好准备。这其中蕴含了太多战略与战术层面的益处。你也可以考虑过渡性工作——我称之为过渡性工作——只为让你重新回到职场游戏中。

It reminds you of your value. It changes your emotional frequency. It sets you up to talk about something in that interview. There's so many kind of strategic and and tactical benefits of that. And you can also consider a transitional job, what I call a transitional job, just to get you back into the game.

那具体是什么样的？

What does that look like?

当我们的长子被诊断出患有严重疾病时（所幸他后来基本痊愈了，我们非常幸运），我长期离开了职场。我记得那个意识到自己必须重返工作的时刻，因为我毫无计划。回到家时我泪流满面，而你当时说'天啊，什么都行'。

I took a significant leave from the workforce when our oldest was diagnosed with a significant medical condition that he's essentially grown out of. We got very lucky. I remember the moment when I realized that I really need to go back to work because I didn't have a plan. And I remember coming home, and I was in tears, and you were like, oh god, anything.

只要你想要，什么都行。无论是什么。无论是什么。

Anything you want. Anything. Whatever it is. Whatever it is.

我当时说我需要以某种方式重返职场。现在回想起来，这大概是一年半到两年后的事了。那是我人生中一个难以想象自己能参加求职面试的阶段。真的，我完全无法做到走进别人的办公室——

And I I said I need to I need to go back to work in some way. And I think this, I don't know, eighteen months, two years into this. And it was a at a point in my life where it was inconceivable that I could interview for a job. Yeah. Like, I just was so far away from being able to walk into somebody's office and

陌生人的办公室。

Like a stranger's office.

然后推销自己和自己的价值。这整个行为感觉荒谬至极。于是我意识到：好吧，我们要把理想工作先放一放，那是以后的事。理想工作以后再说。

And pitch myself and my value. Like, it was so absurd, the whole exercise. And so I I realized, okay, like, we're gonna take a dream job off. That's later. The dream job is later.

先把这从选项中剔除。我联系了三位曾经共事过、了解我价值的人，不需要谈判，我只需表明'我现在有空'。

Later. We're gonna take this out of the choice set. I reached out to three people who I had worked for before who understood my value, and we wouldn't there would be no negotiation. I would just I would just say I'm available. I'm available.

本质上这就是一条'我空闲中'的简短信息。我发了三条，第一个回复的是伟大的Marcelo Escobarrio。她直接说：来吧。

It was it would essentially it was a one lining I'm available. I sent three of them. The first person to respond was the great Marcelo Escobarrio. Oh. She was like, come.

做任何事。做你想做的任何事。来办公室吧。嗯哼。我提醒自己上班意味着什么，提醒自己作为一个成年人意味着什么，提醒自己为一个团队、为一个超越自我的使命做贡献意味着什么，所有这些事情。

Do anything. Do anything you want. Come to the office. Uh-huh. And I reminded myself what it meant to go to the office, reminded myself what it meant to be an adult, reminded myself what it meant to contribute to a team, to a mission that was bigger than myself, all those things.

是的。在我敢于考虑从事那些能带来深层满足感和意义的工作之前，我需要先完成所有这些。那个目标离我当时的处境太遥远了。所以，如果你此刻发现自己与工作的关系陷入僵局，就打破它。这是另一种不择手段也要改变现状的方式。

Yeah. I needed to do all of that stuff before I could even dare to dwell in the possibility of work that was gonna be deeply sustaining and meaningful. Like, that was a goal that was so far away from where I was. So if you've if you are in this moment of finding yourself just stuck in this relationship with work, just shake it up. This is another by any means necessary.

不择手段地打破现状。比如，接受志愿工作，接受过渡性工作，走出去，做任何事。我喜欢这样。就是要改变你经历的结构。我喜欢这个建议。

Shake it up by any means necessary. Like, take the volunteer job, take the transitional job, get out there, do anything. I love it. Just just shift the structure of your experience around. I love it.

我喜欢这个建议。好的。这是心态的转变。现在你准备好开始申请了。关于这个阶段，有几个要点。

I love this advice. Okay. So that's shifting mindset. Now you're ready to start applying. So a few pointers for this stage.

如果你的简历可能会被电脑筛选，没关系。不要抗拒。是的。了解其中的规则。但在你的申请材料中展现真实的自己，因为最终会有人看到。

If a computer is likely to screen your resume, that's fine. Don't fight it. Yeah. Figure out the rules of that. But then reveal who you are in your submission materials, because at some point, you're gonna get to a human being.

当你进入这个阶段时，向对方发出信号表明你也是人类的一员会很有帮助。所以，包括你开始做的那些很棒的志愿工作。弗朗西斯，你现在在动物收容所做志愿者。把这些写进去，给我们一个机会了解立体的你。在发送前获取这些材料的反馈。

And when you do get to the point, it's very helpful to send signals to your fellow human beings that you're also a member of the human race. So include this awesome volunteer work that you started doing. Frances, you're now volunteering at the animal shelter. Like, put that in like, give us a chance to get to know who you are on the level of a three-dimensional person. Get feedback on these materials before you press send.

所以，在你组建的求职团队中，包括一个既爱你又愿意直言不讳的朋友，让他们对你呈现给世界的形象提供反馈。

So on that team, that job search team that you've built, include a friend who adores you and is also willing to give it to you straight to give you feedback on the version of you that you're putting out in the world.

是的。而且，在所有条件相同的情况下，团队里至少要有一个英语专业的人。我娶了一个，这就是我成功的原因。

Yeah. And, you know, all things being equal, just have one English major on the team. I'm married to one explains my success

在这个世界上。是的。

in the world. Yeah.

很公平。

Fair enough.

没错。即便这是你在业内投出的第一百份简历，在踏入那栋象征性的大楼前，也要深入了解这家公司的业务。你面前的人希望为自己的选择感到自豪，他们已决定将生命中重要的一部分奉献给这家公司。所以展现你的好奇心，展露你的热情，不要故作高冷来保护自己——哪怕那是你惯用的策略之一。

Yeah. Even if this is the hundredth, know, resume you've sent out in the industry, really go deep on what the company does before you walk into the proverbial building. The person in front of you wants to feel great about their own choices, and they have made the decision to spend a significant part of their own lives At said company. At said company. So reveal your curiosity, reveal your enthusiasm, don't play it cool to protect yourself, even if that's one of your default strategies.

我曾有段时期面试表现极差，因为我选择了'性感冷漠'作为策略。对方简直莫名其妙。这招完全被高估了。你应该到场展现对职位的真实渴望。我想说的是——要像面试他们一样做准备，

I went through a whole period of my life where I was a terrible interviewer because, like, I I chose, like, sexy indifference as as my strategy. They were like, what the fuck? It's totally overrated. Like, show up and reveal that you actually want the job. I I what I would say is prepare as if you were interviewing them,

就像你为面试做多少准备，了解他们的背景。掌握所有这些信息，才能提出你真正不知道答案的有趣问题。我认为这才是此处好奇心的正确形态。完全同意。这观点太棒了。

like and how much prep you do for interview, and you learn about their background. You learn all of those things so you can ask interesting questions that you don't know the answer to. I think that's the right form of curiosity here. Exactly. I love that.

我们现在稍作休息，之后弗朗西斯将把视角转向这个故事里的其他角色。先从招聘经理开始。弗朗西斯，我很想听听桌子另一边的视角，关于招聘经理和公司层面的情况。此刻我们最需要了解什么？

We're gonna take another short break here, and then Francis is gonna shift our perspective to the other characters in this story. We're gonna start with the hiring managers. So, Frances, I'd love to travel to the other side of the desk Yeah. Now and give us some perspective on what's happening at that hiring manager company level perspective. What should we know right now?

这个，我

Well, I

我认为总体上需要了解两点。其一是永恒真理，在任何时期都适用；其二则专属于当下这个'把握当下'或者说'僵持不前'的特殊时期，与这种不确定性密切相关。但若你坐在桌子另一边，必须清楚自己究竟在寻找什么。

I think there's there's in general two things to know. One of them is evergreen. It's gonna matter for any moment. And I think one of them is specific to this particular moment of so much seizing the day or seizing up, like, to that to that level of uncertainty. But if you're on the other side of the desk, you really wanna understand what you're looking for.

每当有人说'我的招聘标准是录用最佳运动员'时，其实都不是。他们最终雇用的永远是让自己联想到自己的人。所以你要明确自己的需求。我来举几个例子。

That is whenever people are saying my hiring process is to hire the best athlete, it's not. They never do. Just hire someone who reminds them of them. So instead, know what it is that you're looking for. So I'll give you a few examples.

西南航空——这家持续数十年表现最佳的航空公司，他们在招聘空乘时明确要寻找同理心。为此设计了一套精妙的测试机制：不是寻找应聘者中最全能的人，而是锁定'我们需要同理心'这个目标。

Southwest Airlines, which was the best performing airline for decades, they knew when they were hiring flight attendants that they were looking for empathy. And so they've used a very clever mechanism to test for empathy. So they didn't look for the best athlete of all the people that we're hiring. They would have you know? But they knew we wanna get empathy.

于是他们思考：如何排除面试官主观影响，准确判断某人是否具备同理心？这需要极高明的设计。他们采用的技术听起来很不正统，却完美契合需求。在西南航空面试时，你会和其他应聘者共处一室。所以我当时是处在...

And so how can we determine whether or not someone has empathy regardless of who's doing the interviewing? So they had to be really clever. So the and the technique they used is sounds very unorthodox, but was perfect for what they were doing. So when you would go to an interview at Southwest, you would go into the room with other people being interviewed. So in a So I I'm in a

和我的竞争对手同处一室？正是和你的竞争对手。

room with, like, my competition? With your competition.

好的。你身处一个有许多员工的房间，同时也与顾客共处一室。哦，要成为那个房间里的顾客，你得是常旅客，还得赢得资格才能在那里，因为西南航空业绩卓越、文化极佳，能参与其中被视为一种殊荣。所以那是个很大的房间。

Okay. You're also in a room with several employees, and you're also in a room with customers. Oh. And to be one of the customers in that room, you had to be like a very frequent flyer, and you had to earn the right to be able to be there because Southwest was such a high performing and such a great culture that, you know, it was like a very valued thing. So it's a big room.

他们会这样做：随机挑选一位候选员工，然后说‘请站起来向我们描述你最尴尬的时刻’。哇，对于这么友善的文化来说，这感觉相当硬核。确实硬核。

Here's what they would do. They would pick one of the at random, pick one of the prospective employees, and they'd say, please stand up and describe to us your most embarrassing moment. Woah. Now for such like a nice culture, it's That feels hardcore. It's hardcore.

对吧？这非常激进。于是那个人会站起来照做。当我问学生们‘你们觉得他们在考察什么？’时，他们会说‘哦，看谁抗压能力强、谁幽默’——但其实他们根本没在听发言者说话。

Right? It's super aggressive. And so the person would stand up, and they would do it. And when I ask students to be like, what do you think they were doing? They're like, oh, looking if somebody's good with under pressure, if they're funny, They're not paying a lick of attention to the person who's speaking.

他们观察的是其他候选员工，看他们是否展现出同理心。你一眼就能识别出来，这大约只需五秒钟。这是筛选具备同理心人才的万全之法。多完美的例子，对吧？

They're looking at the other prospective employees, and they're looking to see if they exhibit empathy. And you know it when you see it, and it takes about five seconds to exhibit. This was a fail safe way to hire people with empathy. Such a beautiful example. Right?

如此发人深省。但当你对想要的特质如此清晰时，就能想出巧妙的方法。我再举个类似的例子：有部电影叫《模仿游戏》。

So provocative. So provocative. But that when you have that level of clarity of what you want, then you can have a clever way of doing it. I'll I'll use another example along these lines. There was a movie called The Imitation Game.

应该是本尼迪克特·康伯巴奇和凯拉·奈特莉主演的，讲二战密码破译的。正合你胃口。确实正合我胃口。当时二战期间，他们要找出最优秀的密码破译者，并没有去精英大学招募。

I think that was it with Benedict Cumberbatch and Keira Knightley. It was a World War two code breaking. And Just up your alley. Just up my alley. And for them, back at the time of World War two, and they wanted to figure out who the best code breakers would be, they didn't go to the elite colleges and ask them.

他们在报纸上登了道谜题。若能解开谜题，就拨打某个号码。接着受邀参加更难的限时测试。电影里展现了这一幕，凯拉·奈特莉甚至比本尼迪克特解得更快。对吧？

They put in the newspaper a puzzle. And if you were able to solve the puzzle, call this number. And then they invited you in for a harder timed test. It's in the movie how they did this, and Keira Knightley famously finishes this puzzle even faster than Benedict Cumberbatch could. Right?

这其中有很多耐人寻味之处：当他们需要快速创新的问题解决者时，就直接给所有人出题测试。所以关键是明确需求，然后大胆筛选，要意识到我们总倾向于选择与自己相似的人——我们会不自觉地偏袒同类。保持清醒，寻找那些‘凯拉·奈特莉’式的人才。这理念太棒了。

Now so many interesting things about that, but when they knew they wanted fast, creative problem solvers, So they gave everyone problems to solve. So that's, I think, know what you want, and then be fearless about who it is that you're considering for doing that, and realize our temptation is always, always, always to go we really like people who are really like us. We're gonna stack the decks in the favor of people who are like us. So just be aware of it, and and look for the Keira Knightleys out there when you're doing it. I love that.

我还要建议：给人们放弃面试的机会。确保你已清晰传达企业文化。就像你之前说的，让人明白‘这家公司不符合我预期’。在哈佛商学院，我们异常重视教学。

And then I would also say, give people a chance to not show up for the interview. So make sure you have made it clear what your culture is. So to your earlier point, so people know, oh, this one doesn't fit all of those beautiful lists that you had them doing. Mhmm. So at HBS, we care disproportionately about teaching.

这并不使我们比其他学校优越或逊色，但我们就是格外看重。在哈佛，你不能用科研经费抵免教学任务——其他所有同级学校都允许这样做：获得研究资助后，可用来减少授课时间。全球唯独哈佛不允许，因为我们不想要试图逃避教学的人，我们要的是对教学充满热情的人。

It doesn't make us better or worse than any other schools, but we just care disproportionately. So at HBS, you can't buy your way out of teaching at every one of our peer schools. If you get research grants, you use them to apply them to buy out some of your teaching so that you can spend more time on research. You can do that at every school on the planet except HBS because we don't want anyone who wants to buy their way out of teaching. We want people who are energized by teaching.

赋予人们不露面的选择权。这会让你的工作轻松许多。让他们自行退出，但你需要提供一个有创意的退出方式。同意。这很棒。

Give people the ability to not show up. It's gonna make your job so much easier. Let them self select out, but you gotta give them, you know, a creative way of self selecting out. Agree. That's great.

在当前这个紧张时刻，我会建议按照你能留住的节奏来招聘。

Now for this moment, for this moment of tension, I would say hire at the pace that you can retain.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以很容易陷入大起大落的循环。哦，我可以大量招聘，然后直接裁员。接着再大量招聘，再裁员。这严重低估了裁员的破坏性代价。是的。

So it is tempting to have feast and famine. Oh, I can hire a lot, and then I'll just lay off. And then I can hire a lot, and I can lay off. And that wildly underestimates the destructive cost of layoffs. Yeah.

这对所有人的人性都是有害的。所以我想为所有招聘者写下这条准则：当你的组织经历裁员时，你已经失败了。我不是说一次失误就出局，但希望你们将其视为失败。你未能理解外部环境。

And it's bad for the humanity of everyone. So I wanna code this for all of the people that hire out there. When your organization goes through layoffs, you have failed. I'm not saying one strike and you're out, but I want you to treat it as a failure. You failed to understand the external context.

你未能预测。你失败了。你失败了。你失败了。所以将其编码为失败，并确保不要大起大落。

You failed to predict. You failed. You failed. You failed. So code it as a failure and make sure do not feast and famine.

现在不要过度招聘。西南航空之所以成为业绩最佳的航空公司，原因之一就是他们从未裁员。他们没有像其他航空公司那样过度招聘，然后用裁员来弥补。我认为，不裁员带来的外部效益是巨大的。所以今天看来，ServiceNow是个出色的组织，原因很多，其中之一就是在近年科技行业普遍裁员时，人们会说，哦，大家都在裁员，ServiceNow没有。

Don't hire so much now. So the one of the reasons, back to Southwest, that they were the highest performing airline is because they never had layoffs. They didn't overhire, which every other airline did, and then they would make up for it with layoffs. The externalities that will come to you from not having layoffs, I think, are enormous. So if I look today, ServiceNow is a wonderful organization for so many reasons, but one of them is all of the layoffs that have happened in recent years in tech, people are like, oh, everyone laid people off, not ServiceNow.

为什么？因为他们预测了未来可能发生的情况，放缓了招聘节奏，从而避免了裁员。他们没有陷入其他人掉进的陷阱。所以在这个时刻，当你做对了一切并开始招聘时，按照你能留住的节奏来招聘，因为很可能你的组织低估了裁员的代价。太棒了。

Why? Because they were predicting what was gonna happen in the future, and they slowed the hiring down so that they didn't have to do layoffs. They didn't fall into the trap that everyone else did. So in this moment, when you do get all of it right and you're hiring the people, hire at a pace you can retain because chances are your organization is underestimating the cost of layoffs. Beautiful.

好的，弗朗西斯。我们讨论了很多内容，我想最后强调几个重要观点。其一是这很难，你必须为困难而设计。要为情感上的困难而设计。所以不要独自面对。

Alright, Frances. We've covered a lot of territory, and I wanna just close by underlining a few of the big ideas here. I think one is that this is hard, and you have to design for hard. You have to design for emotionally hard. So don't do this alone.

为自己设定成功的条件。了解自己的价值，也要清楚在每一步中你拥有多少主动权。因为很容易被诱惑去认为，你生命的命运、你在这个星球上的归宿此刻掌握在别人手中，但事实并非如此。

Set yourself up for success. Get in touch with your value, but also how much agency you have at every point along the way. Because it's very easy to get seduced into thinking that the fate of your life, your destiny on this planet is in somebody else's hands right now, and it's not.

没错。太喜欢了。我爱死这个了。

Yeah. Love that. I love it.

如果我现在是雇主，核心策略是什么？

What's the big idea if I'm an employer right now?

作为雇主，首先要明确自己的需求，然后通过巧妙的设计来寻找合适的人选。

If you're an employer, know what you're looking for, and then use a clever design to find those people.

是啊。我太赞同了。这不禁让人联想到婚姻的隐喻。就像我们要促成两个人走向红毯。若想让这段婚姻长久，实际上需要双方都进行深刻的自我反省和保持清醒的自我认知。

Yeah. I love this. It it's impossible not to think about a marriage metaphor for this. Like, we gotta get two people down the aisle. And if we really want this marriage to last, there's actually quite a lot of self reflection and self awareness that is required by both parties here.

你说不可能不联想到婚姻时，我却完全没往这方面想——这反映了我什么呢？

I wonder what it means about me that when you said it's impossible not to think about marriage, it would be impossible for me to have thought about a marriage at the end of this.

好吧。这个话题我们下期节目继续探讨。私下聊。感谢大家的收听。

Alright. Well, we're gonna we're gonna pick this up in another episode. Private. Alright, everyone. Thank you for listening.

本期节目就到这里。如果你想和我们《Fixable》团队深入探讨类似话题，欢迎来信：fixableted.com邮箱，或拨打/短信至234 (234) 349-2253，也可以在LinkedIn找到我们——我们在LinkedIn相当活跃。通过评论区留言也是展开对话的好方式，包括报名参加节目，我们非常欢迎。

That's our show. If you wanna explore some kind of topic like this to death with us here at Fixable, send us a message, email us at fixableted dot com, call or text us at 234 (234) 349-2253, or find us on LinkedIn. We're at we're actually quite public on LinkedIn. And if you track us down in the comments, that's another way to to get in touch and start a conversation about anything, including coming on the show, which we would love.

我们很乐意与你交流这个话题。

And we'd be delighted to talk with you about it.

《Fixable》由TED Audio Collective和Pushkin Industries联合制作。我是主持人安妮·莫里斯。

Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective and Pushkin Industries. It's hosted by me, Anne Morris.

我是弗朗西斯·弗莱。

And me, Frances Fry.

我们的团队成员包括伊兹·卡特、康斯坦萨·加利亚多、张班班、亚历杭德拉·萨拉查和罗克珊·海拉什。本期节目由路易斯在Storyyard混音制作。如果你喜欢这个节目，请确保在你获取播客的地方订阅我们，

Our team includes Izzy Carter, Constanza Gallardo, BanBan Chang, Alejandra Salazar, and Roxanne Hylash. This episode was mixed by Louis at Storyyard. If you're enjoying the show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts,

并推荐给朋友来收听我们的节目。

and tell a friend to check us out.