索博斯洛伊的重炮与米尔纳的新里程碑——足球周刊

这里是《卫报》。大家好，欢迎收听《卫报足球周刊》。亚历山大·伊萨克，利物浦登顶联赛榜首。多米尼克·索博斯洛伊的一记射门如火箭般将他们送上榜首。这是一场由一粒精彩绝伦的进球决定胜负的糟糕比赛。

This is the Guardian. Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. Alexander Isaks, Liverpool are top of the league. One kick from Dominic Soberslai rockets them to the top. It was a bad game settled by a quite brilliant goal.

球速看起来突然加快了。这对争冠形势可能影响巨大，正如英超史上最贵签约所能带来的影响一样。而曼城或许已退出这场冠军争夺战。三战两败对他们而言宛如危机。詹姆斯·米尔纳，英超史上第二年长的进球者。

It looked like it sped up. Could be huge in the title race as could the most expensive signing in Premier League history. A title race that Manchester City might not be part of. Two defeats in three feels like a crisis for them. James Milner, the second oldest Premier League scorer ever.

鲁本·阿莫里姆罚进的无价点球助曼联在伤停补时战胜伯恩利。格雷厄姆·波特在城市球场的最后六分钟弥足珍贵。天啊，我们居然到现在才提到判罚和VAR。真为富勒姆感到惋惜，真心实意。

A priceless penalty for Ruben Amarim as Manchester United beat Burnley in injury time. A priceless last six minutes at the city ground for Graham Potter. A blimey we've got this far without mentioning decisions and VAR. You feel for Fulham. You really do.

PGMOL的道歉声明已经发布。埃弗顿大概不会降级了，巴里。格拉利什、朱斯、布里霍尔恩和戴的表现不错吧？所有热刺的乐观情绪都被伯恩茅斯彻底粉碎，后者以1-0痛击他们。维拉陷入危机，马克·盖伊可能用一粒漂亮进球向水晶宫告别，留下问号。

The PGMOL apology is already in. Everton probably won't get relegated, Barry. Grealish, Jews, Briehorn, and Dye is nice, isn't it? All the Spurs optimism is burst by Bournemouth who absolutely batter them one nil. Crisis at Villa, question mark as Marc Gay maybe says goodbye to Palace with a lovely goal.

光明球场上演大量缠斗。桑德兰取得第二场胜利，而埃兰路球场几乎无事发生。以上种种（内容颇丰）、你们的问题，就是今天的《卫报足球周刊》。今日嘉宾菲利普·奥克莱尔。Bonjour savant（法语：日安，学者）。

Lots of grappling at the Stadium Of Light. As Sunderland get a second win, and almost nothing happens at Elland Road. All that, which is a lot, your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly. On the panel today, Philippe O'Clair. Bonjour savant.

学者？可我已经累了。精疲力尽。是啊。

Savant, but I'm already tired. I'm exhausted. Yeah.

我明白。要讨论的内容很多，而嘉宾们又都健谈。所以先向利兹联和纽卡斯尔球迷致歉。诺琳·乔杜里，你好。你好。

I know. There's a lot there's a lot to get through and a panel that like to talk. So apologies to Leeds and Newcastle fans already. Noreen Chowdhury, hello. Hello.

欢迎拉尔斯·西维特森。

And welcome, Lars Sivetson.

是啊。完全不知道这要怎么进行，在制作人开始把我们轰出直播间之前，我们最多能聊多久？

Yeah. I have no idea how this is gonna work, getting through this in any kind of what what's the what's the longest time we can do before the producers start, like, blasting us into outer space or something?

如果超过63分钟，我耳机里就会传来怒吼。那就从安菲尔德开始吧，稍后再谈利物浦对阿森纳。不过我想我们或许...不，应该先谈亚历山大·伊萨克，以1.25亿英镑基础转会费（最高可达1.3亿）签下六年合约。你知道的，已经达成协议了。

If it gets to sixty three minutes, there's fury in my ears. Let's start at Anfield then, and we will talk about Liverpool one Arsenal in a second. But I suppose we probably no. Should start with Alexander Isak, signing for a 125,000,000, rising to a 130,000,000 on a six year deal. I you know, it's agreed.

我不确定他是否已经官宣了。当你听到这段时，他很可能已经亮相了。2023年打破英国转会纪录的莫伊塞斯·凯塞多加盟切尔西。这是好事吗？我是说，这场转会闹剧终于结束，某种程度上算是好事吧。

I don't know if he's been unveiled yet. By the time you hear this, he's probably been unveiled. British transfer record eclipsing Moses Caicedo to Chelsea in 2023. Is this a good I mean, it's sort of good that it's the saga is over, I think.

是啊。最后期限日总能让人集中精神，这现象太有意思了。过去在截止日签人总像是仓促决定或恐慌之举，但现在这成了解决问题的自然阶段——各方放下自我，停止博弈，事情反而水到渠成。虽然早有预料，但说实在的，利物浦确实需要这样的球员。他们前场人才济济。

Yeah. I mean, there's nothing like a a deadline day day to focus their minds. It's it's it's so interesting how how in the old days, signing on deadline day used to feel like a like a knee jerk or or sort of panic reaction, but now it's it's just a natural sort of stage where things get resolved because egos are put to a side, all this all this sort of posturing is is ended, and, it actually happens. It was incredibly inevitable, but also, I I mean, this is stating the obvious, but but Liverpool do need that player. It's they've got so many riches up front.

他们的阵容已经非常强大。但伊萨克的关键在于他是改变战局的人。他未必是世界上最高产的前锋，进球数也不是最多的，但在对阵皇马、巴黎圣日耳曼这些重大比赛中，他总能挺身而出破门得分。这对利物浦是振奋人心的引援，对其他球队则稍显担忧。

They've got so they've they've got such a good team. But the one thing about Isaac is he's the difference maker. It's not as if he's gonna be the most prolific player in the world. He's not he he's he's not scored the most goals of a a of any striker, but in those big games, in those big moments against Real Madrid, against PSG, he he will get the goal. So so I think it's it's exciting for them and slightly worrying for everyone else.

没错。里基留言说播客经常称赞利物浦，对比切尔西和曼城的挥霍，但如今他们也为一名球员支付英国纪录转会费，这是否意味着他们依然比Big6其他俱乐部纯粹高尚？这问题该让菲利普来回答。

Yeah. Ricky says the podcasters regularly praise Liverpool and against Chelsea and Manchester City spending, but then paying a British record fee for a player, does this still mean they are pure and good unlike the rest of the big six? Feels like a Philippe question to me.

是的。利物浦的净支出仍然非常合理。人们常忽略真正重要的是净支出而非总支出。他们出售了克朗扎、达尔文·努涅斯、路易斯·迪亚斯，从特伦特·亚历山大-阿诺德、凯文·凯莱赫身上回收资金，可能还有后续操作。在去年零投入后，今年净支出约2.25亿英镑。

Yeah. The the net spend of Liverpool remains very reasonable. People forget that it's not the gross spend which matters, but it's the net spend difference between what you spend and what you get for players. They've sold Cronza, they've sold Darwin Nunez, they've sold Luis Diaz, they've got money for Trent Alexander Arnold, Kevin Kelleher, they might still make some business. And in total, this year, after not spending anything last year, they've spent about £225,000,000 net.

这基本相当于沙特入主纽卡斯尔首年的净支出。区别在于这是他们自己赚的钱——利物浦是盈利极强的俱乐部，上赛季几乎没花钱，卖人也做得好。所以这完全合理，我认为其他球队有充分理由对未来的竞争格局感到担忧，不仅是今年，未来数年都是如此。

That's more or less what Newcastle United spent net in the first year the Saudis arrived. So the difference is that it is money they've earned. It's a very profitable club. They hardly spent anything last season, and they've also sold well. So, yes, it makes complete sense, and I think we've everybody else has very good reasons to be extremely worried about what the competition will look like in, not this year, but I think quite a few years to come.

确实。拉尔斯，其实我们不必纠结利物浦固定的锋线三人组，因为不同比赛会派不同球员首发。现在努涅斯和迪亚斯离队后，若塔遭遇不幸，埃基蒂克融入顺利，再加上新援埃萨克斯，还有萨拉赫——我们稍后再讨论他目前状态。

Yeah. And, actually, Lars, I mean, you can get carried away with who is the starting three for Liverpool because you start different players in different games. But, you know, it isn't that is now you have you have Nunez and Diaz have gone. Obviously, there's the tragedy of Diogo Jota, and Ekitike has come in and started well, and now Essex come in. And you still have Salah, and we'll get on to how well he's playing or not at the moment.

加克波也在持续进步。我漏了谁吗？可能还漏了个人。

Gakpo is improving all the time. Who have I missed? I probably missed somebody as well.

弗洛里安·维尔茨。

Florian Wirtz.

啊对，弗洛里安·维尔茨。身价刚好一亿。

Florian Wirtz. Of course. Yeah. Just a 100,000,000.

当然，他们还有那个在对阵纽卡斯尔时攻入制胜球的小将。所以其实还有很多其他选择，但我认为他们是从宏观角度考虑这个问题。他们之所以能如此从容地支付高额转会费，一方面如费利佩所说确实卖人收入可观，但更重要的是统计决策层重新掌权——这些人始终保持着战略全局观。虽然萨拉赫续约留队，但很明显终有一日他将离开。

And they have, of course, the the small child who scored the winner against Newcastle. So there are many many other options, but I think they're thinking big picture with this. I think one of the reasons they're so comfortable going big with transfer fees is obviously that they've sold well, as Felipe said. But also, we know the sort of stats overlords are back in charge, who are people who keep, like, kind of a big sort of helicopter view on this. And while Mo Salah is still there and did renew his contract, I think it's very clear that at some point, he will no longer be there.

可能就在明年夏天，也可能是后年，但利物浦终将失去这位贯穿俱乐部现代辉煌时期的进攻核心。我认为他们正在未雨绸缪，引进欧洲最具天赋的年轻攻击型中场维尔茨，以及能无中生有创造进球、在大场面闪耀的超级前锋伊萨克——正如诺斯所言，这不仅关乎本赛季，更是为萨拉赫离队后的时代布局，确保届时已有接班人能挺身而出。

I mean, maybe that's next summer, maybe that's the year after, but we are moving to a point at which Liverpool will lose the guy who has been there attacking talisman for this entire modern era of sort of prosperity that they've had. And I think they're thinking ahead. I think bringing in Wirtz, one of the most talented young attacking midfielders in the continent, bringing in Isaac, who's an extraordinary striker, who can score goals out of nothing, who can do it on the big moments like like Nos said. I think that's not just about this season. I think that's about getting the team ready for when Salah leaves so that you have people in the building already who can step up and be the guy.

说回昨天的比赛，那绝不是场精彩的足球赛。沉闷至极，虽然最后靠灵光一现取胜。索博斯洛伊从右后卫位置——拉尔斯第二年见到的那孩子虽然制胜，但真正击溃纽卡的是那次假动作。嗯。

To the game yesterday, and it and, no, it was not a good football match. I mean, it was boring. I've had it really boring, but still a moment of total brilliance to win it. And, actually, Soberslai now from right back has basically I mean, Lars, the second year, I met the child who won it, but the dummy kind of won the game against Newcastle. Mhmm.

他贡献了本赛季最惊艳的两次技术表演，对利物浦至关重要。

He has provided perhaps the two greatest bits of skill we've seen this season and so crucial for Liverpool.

没错。我觉得他被严重低估了。某种程度上他完美诠释了这支利物浦的伟大之处——首先就是被低估的特质。说来奇怪，这支利物浦本身也被低估了，虽非你所说的那种经典阵容，缺乏华丽元素，却总能找到制胜之道。他们善于调整，拥有高球商的球员和主帅。

Yeah. I mean, it's about, like, in in a lot of ways, I I I think he's so underrated. And and again, I think he encapsulates what is so great about this Liverpool team in that first of all, he's underrated, and in a in a strange way, I think this Liverpool team is underrated, because it's not a vintage team, as you describe a Liverpool team. It's not incredible in terms of flair or whatever, but they always find a way and and they always adapt, and they're intelligent. They've got intelligent players and an intelligent manager.

索博斯洛伊全能得令人惊叹，简直是完美球员模板。他在边后卫位置的表现甚至让人开始思考：他是否该成为首选？他像阿诺德那样送出精准长传策动进攻，防守端同样出色。

Sir Bosley is so so good at everything he does. He's just a in a lot of ways he's complete footballer. He was so good at fullback, to the extent that you think you start to wonder now, is he the first choice? He's he's doing what Trent Alexander Arnold does in terms of his long passes and and and starting attacks. He's he's really good at defending.

他在中场已证明过自己，但最令人印象深刻的是，作为边后卫/翼卫时，进攻型球员通常会本能地保守防守，他却充满自信地持续前插进攻——这正是利物浦的特质。就像人们总谈论阿森纳的定位球，而利物浦妙处在于：尽管身高劣势，面对对方精妙传中和高大球员，他们用贴身缠斗制造麻烦。

I mean I mean, he shows that in midfield, but I suppose the most impressive thing with him playing at fullback and or wingback and doing so well is whenever you've got an attacking player who does that, I think their natural instinct is to play within themselves and be extra defensive, just to just to overcompensate. And and he he's got the confidence and intelligence to not do that. He's got the confidence to sort of go forward, be progressive, and that's what Liverpool do. And and and again, like, a lot of spoken about Arsenal's set pieces. And again, what Liverpool did so well is even though, personnel wise, they were smaller, and and and and Arsenal have got these amazing sort of, like, people who sent in amazing sort of, deliveries and these big guys, they would they were just a pain.

推搡拉扯，正面硬刚。这就是在不利局面下另辟蹊径的能力。索博斯洛伊打边卫，无非是这种特质的又一例证。

They they push people, pull people. They they they got in their faces. And, it's that thing of finding a way even if the situation is imperfect. And and, again, suppose, like, a fullback sort of, was just another version of that.

确实。这样他就不必踢中场，可以安排维尔茨和赫拉芬贝赫，还有麦卡利斯特、琼斯等人。加里·内维尔说那记任意球像C罗风格，我和菲利普在WhatsApp群里吐槽：这对某人简直是人生侮辱——C罗的任意球准星都丢了两百年了。太离谱了。

Yeah. And and it means as well that, you know, you don't have to play him in midfield, so you can accommodate Wirtz, and Gravenberts can play, and then you've got McAllister and Jones, etcetera, etcetera. Garen Neville say did the free kick was Cristiano Ronaldo, like, and Philippe and I, the WhatsApp group, were saying that is a grave disservice to someone's life because Ronaldo has not hit a barn door from a free kick in about two hundred years. Scandalous. Yeah.

不过话说回来，他确实踢出了阿诺德式的表现。有意思的是阿森纳本赛季运动战预期进球倒数第二，定位球也不理想。菲利普，你觉得他们这场有机会吗？

But, well, you know, he did play like Trent. I thought it was interesting. Arsenal have the second lowest XG from open play this season. They they weren't great at set pieces. Are you, Philippe, sort of think that they had a chance here?

其他人也说过。阿尔特塔的做法有些过于谨慎了。他们本有机会赢下这场比赛。

Other people have said it. It's sort of overcautious approach from Arteta. They had the chance here to win this game.

我不会分享我在枪手球迷WhatsApp群里的对话内容，因为他们会说你在胡编乱造。因为我当时就预言了这一切。后来发生的事和我预测的一模一样。为此我遭到不少冷嘲热讽——所谓'蓝天棍'就是'抱歉我不同意你的观点'。

I will not share the, WhatsApp conversations I had with fellow Gunners when the lineup, arrived because they would say, oh, you're inventing that. Because I basically said this is what's going to happen. And what happened is exactly what I said would happen. And I got a lot of blue sky stick, and a blue sky stick is I'm sorry if I disagree with you,

但当我写道

but I had a lot of that when I wrote

类似'错误的首发、错误的态度、错误的战术'时也遭遇过这种情况，而我坚持这个观点。从首发阵容开始传递的信号就是错误的。当我看到阿尔特塔赛后声称球队并非保平而是争胜时，我在想：如果你真这么认为...那我们看的显然不是同一场比赛。我说的阵容是指阵型安排。人员选择上，比如加维·马丁内利根本不该首发——但凡看过阿森纳本赛季比赛的人都知道，他现在极度缺乏自信，速度也不及往常。

something like the wrong line up, wrong attitude, wrong game plan, and I stick to that. I think the message that was sent from the line up onwards was wrong, and when I read what Michel Arteta said after the game, in which he basically said that they hadn't set up to not lose, but to win, I thought, if you really believe that Yeah. We've we've obviously seen a very different game. The lineup, and I know there was, you know, when I say lineup, mean the formation. So choice of personnel is one thing, like, Gavi Martinelli shouldn't have been the starting lineup, and everybody who's seen Arsenal play since the beginning of the season knows that he's at the moment so short on confidence, he's also not as quick as he normally is, and so forth.

你明明有其他选择，比如莱安德罗·特罗萨德，尤其是贝雷特·吉斯。

And you had possibilities, you had Leandro Tossa, and you had especially a Beret Giese.

是啊，他替补上场后表现不错对吧？

Yeah, who did look good when he came on, didn't he?

他简直惊艳，因为他本就是顶级球员。说什么'不能启用刚加盟的球员'简直荒谬——那你买他干嘛？他状态正佳，还能在边路送出传中，要知道你们有个叫朱塞佩的高大中锋，却从马丁内利那里得不到任何支援。

He looked fantastic, but because he's a fantastic player. And the idea, oh, you cannot play a player who's just arrived in the club, that's insane. Why did you make him come then? I mean, he's fully fit. He is also somebody who can deliver the ball from a wide area when you've got this huge center forward called Giuseppe who has no service whatsoever from Martinelli.

再说中场，摆三个防守型中场没问题，前提是至少一人能自由前插。但德克兰·莱斯明明可以踢进攻型八号位，却始终被钉在后腰位置。

So anyway, there was that. Then you have three defensive midfielders, and that's okay, provided one of them is given freedom to actually roam forward. In that case, that didn't happen. Declan Rice could have played as an advanced eight. He did not.

然后是全队态度：'我能回传吗？当然！''我能确保每次传球都零风险吗？必须的！——除了在本方禁区里玩火的时候。'

He was a six. And then the attitude: can I pass the ball backward? Oh yes, I think I'll do that. Can I make absolutely sure that I take no risks whatsoever in the transmission of the ball, the choices I make, except of course when I'm playing within my own box? Yes, we'll have that.

最终你会发现：这踢的是什么？虽然控球率占优，但面对本赛季始终状态低迷的利物浦（这种状态不会持续太久），这简直是天赐良机的错失。看看萨卡替补登场后的冲击力，甚至马丁·厄德高上场后的改变，还有莱斯前压时的效果。我认为这是阿尔特塔的重大失策——他在很多方面都很出色，唯独缺乏跳出思维定式的想象力。

And then suddenly you realize, well, what is going on here? Yes, they're dominating dominating with rabbit ears, they're controlling the game, but Liverpool, who honestly were there for the taking, as they have been there for the taking since the beginning of the season, but will not be for very long, it was a huge opportunity missed. And you saw the impact that Essay had when he went on the pitch, saw even the impact Martino Ljord had when he came on the pitch, and when Declan Rice actually went a bit forward. I think it's a huge opportunity missed for Michele Arteta, who again, he's brilliant at many things, but there's one thing he's not brilliant at, which is to use his imagination and think outside of the box that he's constantly cloistering himself in.

嗯，他刚好站在技术区的边缘，但他无法跳出那个技术区的思维定式，对吧？我觉得你的克里斯挺有意思的，拉斯。显然，你知道，才踢了三场比赛什么的，还不能评判球员。但像科纳特这样本赛季表现不佳的球员，在这场比赛中却完全压制了他，我是这么认为的。

Well, the box that he's just on the edge of the technical area that he's just on the edge of, but he can't think outside that technical area, can he? Think I your Chris is interesting, Lars. And and, obviously, you know, it's three games or whatever, and you can't judge players. But, like, Konate, who's had a bad season so far, just totally dominated him, I thought, in this game.

是啊。讽刺的是，阿尔特塔经常跳出那个框框。没错。他真正需要改进的正是那个框框。现在，你知道，我几乎有点为阿尔特塔辩护的意思，因为我觉得他带领阿森纳重回争冠行列的功劳经常被低估，我认为人们低估了做到这一点的难度。

Yeah. Ironically, Arteta is quite often outside of that box. Yeah. It's just just the box he needs to needs to work on. Now, you know, I I get almost slightly, like, defensive about Arteta because I feel like he often doesn't get enough credit for taking Arsenal back to a point where they are contenders, and I think people underestimate the difficulty of doing that.

所以我看着这场比赛时在想，你看，你去客场挑战卫冕冠军。你信任自己的防守——阿森纳确实是前三名中唯一真正能做到这点的球队。虽然创造的机会不多，但你们擅长定位球...不过越想越觉得这个说法站不住脚，因为虽然对手是卫冕冠军，但他们在过去三场比赛中丢了两个球，无论是面对十人应战的纽卡斯尔，还是对阵伯恩茅斯和社区盾杯的水晶宫时，防守都显得很脆弱。我算不上战术博主，无法确切指出利物浦是否做了重大调整才在这场比赛中更稳固，但我觉得没有。更多是阿森纳自己决定不去施压，不去利用对方中场缺乏抢断手的事实，不去针对他们让一名八号位球员踢右后卫的弱点。

So I was kinda watching this thinking, well, you know, you've gone away to the champions. You've you've trusted your defense, which is Arsenal really being the only one of the top three who can really do that, I think. And and and and you haven't created a lot, but you're good at set pieces and maybe but the more I think about it, I don't really buy it because you're going away to the champions, but you're going away to the champions who've conceded two in their last three games, who looked very vulnerable defensively, both against 10 man Newcastle and against Bournemouth and against Palace in the in the Community Shield. And I'm not enough of a tactics blogger to really identify if Liverpool did something dramatically different to be more solid in this game, but I don't think they did. I think it was more a case of Arsenal just decided to not try to push them, to not try to exploit the fact that they don't have a lot of ball winners in that midfield, to not try to exploit that they have a number eight playing right back.

我不得不站在菲利普这边——是的，这绝对是个错失良机。约卡里斯，我要抖个老梗：自从上次在布达佩斯下馆子后，我还没见过哪个斯堪的纳维亚人得到这么差的服务。

And I I have to side with Philippe about, yeah, opportunity missed in a big way. And Jokaris, I'm gonna wield this. This is just an old joke. Jokaris, I've not I've not seen the Scandinavian get such poor service since the last time I went to a restaurant in Budapest.

嗯。好的。明白。

Yeah. Good. Okay.

爆梗。确实如此。

Boom. That's true.

来看看布莱顿对曼城的比赛。布莱顿2比1领先。达里乌斯说：希望本赛季能有个隆重的詹姆斯·米尔纳致敬仪式。既然他昨天进球了，现在正是时候。他现在既是英超第二年轻的进球者，也是第二年长的进球者。

Let's go to Brighton Man City. Brighton winning two one. Darius says, I'm hoping for a big James Milner tribute at some point this season. Maybe after his goal yesterday, now's the time to do it. He's now the Premier League's second youngest and second oldest goal scorer.

他的英超历史助攻数前十，抢断数前十，随两支不同俱乐部赢得过英超所有荣誉，踢过几乎所有中前场位置。本赛季可能成为英超出场纪录保持者。但在讨论英超历史最佳阵容或伟大球员时，他的名字却很少被提及。

He is in the top 10 for all time Premier League assists, top 10 all time tackles. He's won everything the Premier League with two clubs. He's played in most outfield positions. He may become the record Premier League appearance maker this season. He's never in the discussions around the list of all time Premier League greats or is in the best ever Premier League elevens.

也许我们对伟大的定义有误解。他说得很有道理，诺斯。

Maybe we don't understand what greatness is. He makes a very good point, Nos.

他属于伟大球员的替补席——我觉得这个定位很准确。若泽特说得对，他是第二年轻也是第二年长的（而非最年轻或最年长），这正是詹姆斯·米尔纳伟大的精髓所在。

He's on the bench of the great, which I think is the right place. Josette is right that he's the second youngest and the second oldest, not the first, and that is the essence of James Milner's greatness,

是啊。

Yeah.

我想是吧。

I think.

他自2019年以来就没为诺兹进过球。还有件趣事——他出生于1986年4月1日。当时圣诞榜冠军是Shaking Stevens的《Merry Christmas Everyone》。这正撞我专业领域了——第二天就被宠物店男孩的《West End girls》取代了。诺兹，请赞美詹姆斯·米尔纳。

He hadn't scored Noz since 2019. And also what's nice is he was born on the 01/04/1986. Merry Christmas everyone by Shaking Stevens was number one. This is in my wheelhouse replaced by West End girls, pet shop boys the day after. Noz, please praise James Milner.

我是说，他他他太不可思议了。而而而现在的问题是，我们总觉得米尔纳是个老头。其实他他长相就没变过对吧？就算16岁时看着也像个砖头工。但我特别爱的是，我们总说他是什么老将老头，可从我角度看，明明他他三十多岁而已啊。

I mean, he he he is incredible. And and and the thing is, now we think of, like, old man Milner. Like, he's he's always looked the same, hasn't he? Even when he was, like, 16, he looked like a a bricket. But what I especially love is is is the way we talk about him being, like, this old veteran and this old man, and he's and, like, from my point of view, I'm thinking, like, but, yeah, he he is still in his thirties.

对啊。所以按这个标准，我我我算什么？算了。他他确实了不起。

Yeah. So, like, like, what what does that make me in the in the grand scheme of things? Yeah. No. He's he's incredible.

他还是个顶级运动员，你完全可以想象，等他退役后绝对会转战其他体育项目。估计会去参加《最强壮男人》比赛，或者改练赛艇直接冲进奥运会。

He's he's an incredible athlete as well, and and you can imagine, like, once he's given up football, he he will definitely do something else, like, physically. Like, he'll he'll probably go on to, like, be on Will's Strongest Man, or he'll probably take up like rowing or something and get to the Olympics.

他拿过奥运

He's Olympic gold in

四人艇舵手冠军，

the Cox of Four, so

太低调了，就默默当第三桨手。直到戴着金牌上岸你才发现是詹姆斯·米尔纳。说得太对了。

that's great. Really understated, just a third in the boat. You don't even know it's James Bill until he gets out with the gold medal. You're absolutely right.

但说真的，他去布莱顿时大家都觉得是老马归田，结果根本不是——他现在依然贡献巨大。我甚至怀疑他还能踢多久？以他的身体素质和全能球商，再战两年完全没问题，您说呢？

But no, he's incredible, also it's When he went to Brighton, was almost this sense of like, okay, now he's like an old Shire horse gone for pasture, but he's clearly not, and he's clearly contributing, and partly wonders like how long can he go on? Because I could physically, and he's such an intelligent and multifaceted footballer, you can imagine him going for another couple of years, you sir?

是啊，是啊。又一名替补球员，布拉扬·格鲁多，2500万从美因茨签下。拉尔斯，为俱乐部打入首球的同时，还能一箭双雕地让诺里安和特拉福德坐冷板凳，这方式太棒了。

Yeah. Yeah. Another sub, Brajan Grudeau, 25,000,000 signing from Mainz. What a great way, Lars, to score your first goal for the club and to, like, sit down, ate Norian, Trafford in one move as well.

确实。不过这是布莱顿的作风。我知道他去年出场过几次，所以他并非凭空冒出来的，对吧？但引进这种连我这种自诩欧洲足球通都知之甚少的球员，每次布莱顿签下这些人时，你都会觉得——他们八成很厉害。

Yeah. I mean, it is the Brighton thing, though. I know he played a number of times last year, so he's not, you know, he's not come out of nowhere, has he? But I just to to bring in players who even a sort of self professed Euro nerd like myself doesn't have a lot to say about. And it's just whenever they bring in these guys, Brighton, you just go, they're probably good.

已经发展到你根本不会质疑布莱顿的任何签约了。他们的战绩太耀眼，让你默认这些年轻球员——通常是没听过或只看过几场的——被布莱顿签下后总能成功。也许正因很多签约看起来太随机，失败的我们根本不会记得。

Like, you did it. Like Yeah. Gotten to the point where you just don't think you never question any of the signings Brighton make. It's just because their track record on this is is so strong that you just assume these are young guys, often guys you haven't heard about or only seen a couple of games, and Brighton brings them in, and they just always work out, seems to be. Maybe it's because they're so random, a lot of them, that if they don't work out, then we never hear them at all.

所以我得仔细观察，他们在这方面的能力简直不可思议。

So maybe I need to look very closely, it just seems they're just absolutely incredible at doing this stuff.

没错。明特也踢了场好球对吧？从曼城角度看，瓜迪奥拉说：'我喜欢我们对阵热刺时的开局，也满意今天的许多表现，但没能赢球。'

Yeah. Minter looked had a really good game as well, didn't he? From a City point of view, Philippe Pep says, I like many things we're doing. Like, against Tottenham, we started well. I like many things the team has done here today, but we were unable to win.

丢球后我们就不会踢了。三场两败对看好曼城夺冠的人可不是好消息。你觉得危机等级到哪了？

When we conceded the goal, we stopped playing. I mean, two defeats in three is not good for those of us that said City would win the league. We just you know, just that'd probably be good. Where where are the levels of crisis, do you think?

你是指危机量表上的...对，就是'小波动''小水泡'这类词。我觉得算'阵痛期'吧。球队阵容和主力都在重建，我甚至不确定瓜帅是否清楚首发阵容——如果他曾经清楚过的话。

Do you mean when do you know that on a crisis scale with Yeah. Yeah. The blip, the bubble, and all these sort of things. Teething pains, I think, is probably what I would think of. Again, there's been a lot of rebuilding of that squad and of that first team.

能看到球队缺乏经验，在对方禁区欠缺决断力。有些球员也不在状态，我得问问拉尔斯哈兰德到底怎么了——他昨天进球前错失的机会太离谱，我甚至开始怀疑：这还是那个被认为将成史上最佳的前锋吗？毕竟他沉寂很久了。

I'm not absolutely sure that Pep actually knows what his starting lineup is, if Pep has ever known what his starting lineup was that is. And so you can see that there's a certain lack of experience, there's a lack of decisiveness in the third I was going to say in the third quarter, it should be in the fourth quarter of the pitch. Also, some players were under par, and of course I will ask Lars what exactly is wrong with Mr. Holland, because what he missed yesterday before scoring was quite extraordinary, and it's actually I'm reaching the point where I'm thinking, is this the striker whom we thought was going to be the greatest striker football had ever seen? Because we haven't seen him for a while now.

加上贝尔纳多·席尔瓦等球员状态下滑，就像当年的京多安一样。所以曼城正处于转型期，还没找到最佳平衡点，因此频频失误。罗德里说得狠，称这些是'幼稚的错误'。

So between all of these things and some players who are not quite what they used to be, like Bernardo Silva is no longer quite the Bernardo Silva that we used to know, the same way that Il Cagunogan at one point was no longer the Inkul, and you can carry on. So I think they're in basically a period of transition in which the balance, the right balance hasn't been found. Because of that, they're making mistakes. I mean, Rodri actually made some pretty tough comments. I mean, they called them child's mistakes or something like that.

踢得不错后突然崩盘——他的评价很准确。对手一进球他们就乱了阵脚。所以这只是暂时的，算轻微波动吧。

And again, after playing decently, I think that he was absolutely right in his assessment. They started to play decently, and as soon as their rivals scored, they just lost their football. So it's it's just a temporary thing. So it's a a blippish. On on the scale, it's it's blippish.

Blippish。好吧。我是说，你觉得哈兰德最近表现如何？你是不是得发个续集说，其实他踢得很烂？是这样吗？

Blippish. Okay. I mean, what what do you think about Haaland last? Do you have to release a sequel going, actually, he was shite? Is that the

我是说，他最近七场为曼城进了六个球。所以好吧。但这就是他的特点——他能跑到那么多好位置，他的跑动太出色了。

I mean, he scored six goals in the last seven for City. So Okay. But but, I mean, that is kind of the thing about him. He's he gets into so many positions. His movement is so good.

他的身体素质极佳，所以总能抢到机会。当他的临门一脚不够犀利时——显然昨天就是如此——场面就会显得有点滑稽。不过他的进球数据依然惊人，所以我还不至于慌神。说不定是他听说我把他选为梦幻队队长了。

His physique is so good. So he gets into so many positions, and when his finishing isn't as sharp as it could be, which is clearly wasn't yesterday, it it it ends up looking a bit daft. But, I mean, his numbers in terms of scoring goals are still pretty extraordinary, so I'm not freaking out just yet. It's possible that he got word someone had told him that I have captained him on my fantasy team.

对。看吧。

Right. See.

我很确定。没错。不管我怎么操作，这诅咒似乎特别灵验。虽然他现在处于射门状态不如预期的阶段，但进球数依然可观。这就是实力。

I'm pretty sure. Yeah. I think it does seem to be a very effective hex, whatever I do with that thing. Not he has gone through a period where his finishing hasn't been as sharp as we expect it to be, but he's still scoring a lot of goals. This is because he's very good.

而Nas这边刚传来突发新闻。我们来看看，呃，我们那位朋友的消息

And Nas is just a lot is just some breaking news. Here we go from, you know, our friend

请不要用那个说法

Please don't use that expression

不，抱歉。你的嘴。多纳鲁马去曼城不意味着真能成。我之前还为吉布斯-怀特和埃兹兴奋过呢，所以谁知道呢。

No. I'm sorry. Your mouth. Donorumo to Manchester doesn't mean it's gonna happen. I, you know, I got excited about Gibbs White and Eze with that, so you never know.

但多纳鲁马去曼城，这可有意思了，不是吗？

But Donorumo to City, which is really interesting, isn't it?

太疯狂了。简直离谱。我想不出还有哪个顶级门将的脚法像多纳鲁马这么糟。你们同意吗？

That's crazy. That's absolutely cray I cannot think of a top top level goalkeeper who is as bad with his feet as Donnarumma. I mean, would you agree, guys?

是的。不。我是说，我有点赞成结束菲利普的传闻，因为我发誓，这个谣言一直在传，我还以为是编造的。不是在这个情况下，而是因为我们知道当经纪人非常想推动一名球员转会时，这种事情可能会发生，显然多纳鲁马得有个去处，他们就编造谣言并确保它不断被报道，直到真的有俱乐部介入。这差不多就是我的想法，因为说实话，这毫无道理。

Yeah. No. I mean, I am yes to ending Philippe a little bit, because I swear to god, this rumor has been happening, and I assumed it was made up. Not not in this but just because we know that this something that can happen when agents are very keen to move a player, and clearly, Donnarumma had to go somewhere, and that they just make make up a rumor and and and make sure it keeps getting reported until an actual club comes in. That that was kind of what I was thinking because, honestly, it makes no sense.

瓜迪奥拉接手曼城后做的第一件事就是审视乔·哈特，然后说，哦，你是个不错的扑救手，但脚下技术不行，所以你可以走了。路易斯·恩里克现在做的本质上就是这件事。恩里克利用赢得欧冠积累的政治资本，正将这些资本用于摆脱多纳鲁马。我认为巴黎圣日耳曼有几位教练如果去跟高层说想换掉这位门将，高层会回绝。但恩里克现在确实有影响力做这种决定，他这么做很大程度上是因为他想要一个脚下技术好的门将。

It's one of the first things Guardiola did when he took over at City was look at Joe Hart and say, oh, you're a perfectly fine shot stopper, but you can't play with your feet, so off you go. And that is essentially what Luis Enrique is doing here. Like, Luis Enrique is is taking the political capital he's earned from winning the Champions League, and he's spending that capital on getting rid of Donnarumma. I think there are a few PSG coaches who if they went to the bosses and said, I wanna get rid of this goalkeeper, the bosses would have said, tough. But, actually, you know, Enrique now has the clout to make that kind of decision, and he's making it because partially, in large part, because he wants a goalkeeper who can play with his feet.

所以他接下来去瓜迪奥拉的曼城就很荒谬。这真的非常奇怪，让我不禁想问，他们现在对曼城的重建到底在搞什么？这说不通——

So for him then to go to Guardiola City is absurd. It's really, really weird, and it makes me really wonder, like, what what are they doing now with the rebuild at City? It doesn't

完全没道理。你刚才听起来像在说‘瓜迪奥拉城’，像个地名似的。你能想象那种地方吗？所有事情都被过度思考。

make any sense. You sounded like you said Guardiola City. Like, it's a place. Can you imagine that sort of place? Everything is overthought.

所有事情都疯狂且过度思考。总之，听着，这很有趣。我们明天会在播客里汇总所有转会消息，不过我们会先尽力聊完其他足球话题。第二部分将从老特拉福德开始。

Everything is manic and overthought. Anyway, look. That is fascinating. We'll round up all the transfers on the pod tomorrow, by the way, but we'll try and we'll try and get through the rest of the football before any transfers happen. And part two will begin at Old Trafford.

欢迎来到《卫报》足球周刊直播秀第二部分。仍有部分门票，整个上层看台还有余票。9月11日。知情人士告诉我，自疫情以来，人们习惯在最后一周购票。所以抓紧避免错过，不过现场观众已经不少了。

Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly live show. Still some tickets, brackets, the entire top tier available. September 11. People in the know have told me that, you know, since COVID, people buy their tickets in the final week. So rush to avoid disappointment, but already a good crowd in.

所以买了票的别慌，不会只有我们四个对着一个观众聊天。来吧，当个英雄，把上层看台坐满。

So, like, don't freak out if you have bought a ticket. It won't be just four of us chatting to one of you. But, yeah, come on. Be a hero. Fill the top tier.

巴里、乔纳森·威尔逊、尼基·班迪尼、约翰尼·卢都会来，还有我们能拉来的任何人客串。约翰·布鲁恩正在洽谈中，还有其他许多人。精彩的中场表演。有段我不想公开的视频，但被迫同意作为环节之一。购票请访问theguardian.com/footballweeklylive。

Barry, Jonathan Wilson, Nikki Bandini, Johnny Lou, cameos from, anyone we can grab. John Bruin is in, in negotiations, with many others. Great halftime show. A video that I don't want to be made public, but I'm forced to agree can be part of proceedings too. Tickets purchased by heading to the guardian.com/footballweekly live.

全球同步直播。我的Ins会播，现在连巴里的Ins也有了。昨天我刚教他用Ins，过程痛苦但总算成功了。总之，请一定来玩。

Live streaming it as well around the world. It's on my Instagram, even on Barry's Instagram now. I gave him a lesson on how to use Instagram yesterday. It was painful, but we got there. Anyway, please come along.

见到你们会很高兴。现在去老特拉福德吧，曼联3-2伯恩利。诺斯，玩得开心吗？

It'd be lovely to see you. Let's go to Old Trafford, man. United three, Burnley two. Nos, did you have a nice time?

我确实看到了。不过比赛前有个奇怪的情况，不知为何有个艾德·希兰的模仿者在球场外围晃悠。我不知道他在那儿干什么，也不知道这有什么意义，但他表现得非常显眼，很多人都在和他合影。大家应该知道他是模仿者，但谁知道呢？

I did. Although, except there was a weird situation before the game where you had a for some reason, you had an Ed Sheeran lookalike wandering around the forecourt. I don't know what he was doing there or or what the point was, but he he was he was making himself very conspicuous, and lots of people were taking photos with him. Assume knowing that he's lookalike, but who knows?

模仿者的世界很有趣，不是吗？它完全取决于——你知道——有些模仿者突然因为被模仿者被捕而失业，就像‘哦，我的饭碗没了’。

The world of the lookalikes is very interesting, isn't it? It's so beholden to how, you know, there are obviously lookalikes that suddenly the person you're being suddenly gets arrested, you're like, oh, that's me done.

我们能为本周莱兰德的模仿者默哀一分钟吗？

Can we have a minute silence for for Ryland's lookalike this week?

没错。听着，我不知道你觉得那个点球有多关键。斯科特·帕克当时说‘这够清楚明显吗？就像某个货车里的家伙’，这形容斯托克利公园真是绝了。我觉得货车大小根本不重要。

Exactly. Now, look, I don't know how vital you think that penalty is. Scott Parker was like, you know, is it clear and obvious, some bloke in a van? It's a great way of describing Stockley Park. I don't think it matters how big or small the van.

问题在于杰德和安东尼为什么那么晚还拉扯别人球衣，我觉得。不过话说回来，你觉得这个时刻对鲁本·阿莫林有多重要？

The question is what is Jade and Anthony doing pulling someone's shirt that late on, I think. But still, how big do you think that moment is for Ruben Ameren?

我认为极其重要，因为如果曼联输球甚至打平，加上国际比赛日期间有大量时间让人过度思考未来，我真的很担心阿莫林会辞职。他之前表示过，如果觉得自己做得不对，感觉辜负了球队或失去支持，他会无条件离开。这场胜利很讽刺——虽然输给格里姆斯比确实极其尴尬，但当比分2:2时，我相信如果曼联3:2逆转，反而可能成为触底反弹的契机。

I think it's massive simply because there's a scenario where United lose or even draw, and because we've got an international break and there's lots of time to overthink and think about your future, I I was seriously worried that Ameren would walk. He's expressed previously that if he didn't feel that he was doing things right, if he felt as if, like, he was failing the team or he didn't have the team on his side, the board weren't on his side or the the fans weren't, he would walk without compensation, and I and I genuinely believe he's that kind of personality. So that was a that was a major concern. But it's funny because even the Grimsby game, obviously, incredibly, embarrassing that that United lost and even that it was such a competitive game. But when it was two two, I honestly believe that if United had scored and won three two, it could have worked as a as a bounce.

就像跌入谷底后强力反弹。即便是本该赢的比赛，比如对伯恩利这场，也可能成为转机。尤其在国际比赛日前，舆论真空会放大最后一场比赛的讨论。所以我觉得这可能是个关键节点。

Like, you you hit in a dair, and then you bounce back up. Even even a game like that where you obviously should have won. And similarly against Burnley, it can actually lead to something. And, again, especially, there's so much narrative that can that can happen before an international break that sort of there's a vacuum, so people sort of talk a lot about the last game. So I think I think this is this is a it it could be an important moment.

而且这场比赛很特别——虽然听起来矛盾，但我认为曼联确实踢出了一场‘狼狈的完胜’。3:2战胜降级热门伯恩利，靠补时点球绝杀，表面看没什么了不起。但实际上曼联创造大量机会，比赛非常精彩。

And and also, it it was a strange game because I I I genuinely believe that you can scrape a convincing win, if that makes sense. Because because in one respect, you could think, oh, it's three two against Burnley who who were who were one of the favorites to go down, and and you and you won by a last minute penalty. What's so good about that? But I think Manchester United actually played really, really well, made loads of chances. It was really it was a really entertaining game.

确实本该多进至少三个球。这让我想到利物浦对阿森纳那场——很多人质疑利物浦防线是否真那么脆弱。但某种程度上，阿森纳反而是最理想的对手，因为他们踢得太保守了。

And and, yeah, should should've should've won should've scored at least three more goals. So so yeah. And and and, again, it goes back to this thing of if we if we go back to the Liverpool Arsenal game, there was a lot of talk. Is is Liverpool's defense really weak? Is it is it are they shipping too many goals?

就像你以为踢保级队会轻松，其实不然。我早知道曼联能踢好阿森纳，却担心他们会栽在伯恩利身上。所以这场胜利很重要——我确实看到了乐观的理由。

But in a way, Arsenal were the best team to play just because they they were so sort of reserved and so play so within themselves. And and in the same way that you think playing a a relegation team would be easier, it's not. I I knew that United would play well against Arsenal, and I was worried that that United would play badly against or struggle against Burnley. So it was a big win for me, and and and and it was it was a they would I definitely saw reasons to be optimistic.

我能只点头吗？

Can I just nod?

可以。

Yeah.

你你你表达得好像你你你害怕阿马林会离开。

You you you phrase it like you you you were afraid Amarin would walk.

是啊。

Yeah.

现阶段这是个大担忧吗？比如，你是不是特别害怕？像是，没有这位优秀经理我们该怎么办？因为我觉得在季前巡回赛后，所有报告都显示，天啊，情况太乐观了。

Is that a big fear at this point? Like, are you terrified? Like, what will we do without this great manager? Because I just kinda feel after we've had the preseason tour where you had all the reports that, oh my god. It's so positive.

懂吗？每个人都超级开心。从未这么好过。然后才踢了三场比赛，他就失控到差点在直播中自我解雇的地步。这让我觉得他可能不适合这个位置。

You know? Everyone's so super happy. It's never been this good. And then you're three games into the tournament, and he's lost his head to the point where he nearly sacks himself on air. That that just kinda makes me think he might not be cut out for this.

我选择在他们赢球时提出这点而非输球时，因为我始终认为这是事实。

And I'm gonna make this point now when they've won the game rather than when they've lost because I still think it's the case.

这...我是说，这绝对是个合理的观点。但关于阿马林，我认为他是对的人选。如果他失败了，那我真的会为曼联感到极度担忧——因为这证明俱乐部仿佛被诅咒了，一切都不对劲。即便他接手时面临类似困境：球队因自身声誉不断受挫，他却能重整旗鼓，从中开辟新局。

It's I mean, it's it's absolutely a valid point. I suppose the thing with with Amirim, I think he's the right guy. I think he's the right guy. And, essentially, if he fails, then I am incredibly worried about Manchester United because because that just proves that that, like, it is literally cursed and everything is wrong. And and even even a guy who who who came into, sporting a very similar moment where they were constantly failing, were being crushed by their own reputation, he and he kind of cleared the decks and and sort of created something from that.

从很多方面看，这正是当下曼联需要的。如果他在曼联失败（虽然仍有可能），他未来在其他地方仍会成为伟大教练。所以某种程度上这是个元思考：在经历这么多失败教练后，我真心相信阿马林与众不同。他坚信自己的体系，

In a lot of ways, that's perfect for United now. And if he was to fail at United, and he still may, he will go on to be a great manager somewhere else. So so in in a sense, it's almost a meta thought. It's almost a it's almost a thought of, like, you've you've had all these managers who failed, and I genuinely believe Amarim is different. He believes in his system.

他有一套本应奏效的优秀体系，也是个出色的激励者。如果他失败了，那我会极度担忧到底谁能成功。

He's got a good system that should work. He's a great sort of motivator. And if he fails, then then that makes me incredibly worried about who can succeed.

确实。我对此非常感兴趣，因为这是我第一次听到有人坚信，他作为系统管理者的身份能为曼联带来优势。诺斯，请详细说说，因为我必须承认，当曼联在场上看似因他试图强行将方钉钉入圆孔而频频出问题时，我有点难以理解。所以你的意思是，他其实锤得还不够狠？这就是你想表达的吗？

Yeah. I'm I'm really interested to hear that because I think this is the first time that I've heard somebody being convinced that the fact that he's a systems manager is something that can work to Manchester United's advantage. Please tell us more, Nos, because I have to say I'm struggling a little bit more to get my head around this, when it looks as if a lot of the problems that Manchester United seems to have had on the field has been because he's been trying to hammer square pegs in round holes. So you're telling me, basically, he hasn't hammered enough. Is that what you're telling is that what you're telling us?

他需要一把更大的锤子。

He needs a bigger hammer.

需要更大的锤子。没错。

Needs a bigger hammer. Yeah.

是的，他确实需要。我对阿马林最大的担忧在于中场，以及他试图将布鲁诺硬塞进那个位置的方式。这让人想起索尔斯克亚时期，球队原本运转良好，但引进C罗后一切脱轨。我担心布鲁诺可能让阿马林重蹈覆辙。不过关于阿马林的体系，球员本就需要适应多种战术系统。

Yeah. He does. I I mean I mean, the one big concern I I do have with Amarim is is the midfield and and and the way he is trying to hammer Bruno into that hole. And and again, that's a concern because that almost it's a mirror of the way that Solskjaer had this team that worked, then he tried to bring Ronaldo into it, and he he like, it all derailed derailed because of that, and I'm I'm worried that it might derail for Amirim because of Bruno. But in terms of Amirim and his system, like, players play lots of systems.

我认为外界过分夸大了体系的重要性。本质上还是球员决定成败。曼联有过太多妥协的教练，他们审视现有阵容后只想着如何将就。

I I think the system is is kind of overexaggerated in terms of the bailing. I I I generally still believe it's about the players. And we've had so many managers at Manchester United who have been pragmatists and in a in a in a bad way. They they they've kind of looked at the tools they've got, and they thought, right. How can we get the best out of these players?

而我认为这些球员态度有问题，根本配不上曼联的建队核心地位。所以我才希望以主帅的理念和体系为核心，让球员围绕其成长。本赛季令人沮丧的是，虽然战绩糟糕，但我们有过很多体系运转良好、球员斗志昂扬的阶段。曼联本赛季多次开局强势绝非偶然。

And my belief is that the players have been have had the wrong attitude and have been the wrong pro profile of players to be at a club at Manchester United, and and they don't deserve that honor of building a team around them. So that's why I want the manager's beliefs and the manager's system to be the star and the focus and the and the players learn around that. And and, again, the frustrating thing about this season is if you look at the results, it looks bad. But there's been long periods of of the season where we've played well, where the system has worked, where the where the players have been up for it and motivated. I don't think it's a coincidence that so many games this season, Manchester United have started well.

几乎每场比赛初期，当体系得到执行时他们都表现惊艳。但随后就开始崩盘——这是球员执行力的问题？还是他们逐渐偏离战术角色？或许我是在违背理性地信任阿马林，但当体系生效时，确实能展现出极佳效果。

I think practically every game game, they've started really well where the where the system has been implemented. And then it starts to unravel, then you kind of think, well, is that motivation? Is that sort of how strictly the players are sort of adhering to what they've been told? And then it starts to unravel, and they stop sort of like fitting their role. So that's why, like and again, like, maybe maybe this is me sort of, like, against all better judgment sort of trusting Amarin, but I I do see these signs of, like, when it's working, it is working really well.

再看曼联创造的进攻机会，他们的预期进球值在英超名列前茅。至于失球数...

And again, if you look at how many chances Manchester United create, I think they're right up there in terms of XG of everyone in the Premier League. And if you look at the goals that we've conceded

每次射门都能转化为进球。

Every shot has got in.

不，其实...大概六七个失球里，四五次都是门将失误造成的。

Yeah. But but but but it no. But it but but it's there's so many goalkeeper errors that of the, like I don't know. Is it is it six goals or whatever they've conceded, like, or seven? Like like, four or five of them have have been goalkeeper errors.

所以你本应该

So You should have

听到些传闻的。你本该这么做。

gotten a rumor. That's what you should have done.

嗯，确实有传言。你知道的，埃米·马丁内斯昨天没上场。等我们录完节目时，你可能会听到马丁内斯的消息。是啊。你听起来完全不像我上赛季谈论安格时的语气，但，相信这些传言还是挺让人愉快的。

Well, there are rumors. You know, Emmy Martinez didn't play yesterday. By the time we finished recording, you might have Martinez. Yeah. You do not sound a bit like I sounded last season talking about Ang, but, like, it's nice to believe it's nice to believe it's something.

让我们转到城市球场。吉姆问，努诺是不是想通过不击败西汉姆联队来让不可避免的分手更容易些？拉尔斯，西汉姆联最后六分钟太精彩了。库辛西奥·索默维尔像是带头冲锋，还有贾罗德·鲍恩。

Let's go to the city grounds. Jim says, is Nuno trying to make the inevitable breakup easier by not beating this West Ham side? Lars, what a brilliant last six minutes for West Ham. Cousinsio Somerville sort of spearheaded it. Jarrod Bowen.

比赛最后阶段，鲍恩表现神勇，索默维尔也很出色，卡勒姆·威尔逊同样亮眼。说实话，如果有人需要这场胜利，那就是西汉姆联和格雷厄姆·波特。

Like like, that end of the game, Bowen was great. Somerville was great. Callum Wilson was great. And, like, West Ham, if anyone needed this, West Ham and Graham Potter needed this.

没错。我觉得这比诺丁汉森林和努诺的故事更值得关注——单看本赛季前两场比赛，你会觉得波特在西汉姆的结局肯定不妙吧？之前看起来完全绝望了。然后他们还得去客场挑战森林，而森林的主场战绩又极其强悍，当时大家都觉得情况会非常糟糕。

Yeah. I feel like that's almost a bigger story than than Forrest and and Nuno because just from the first two games this season, you're thinking, this is not gonna end well, is it, for Potter at West Ham? It looked absolutely desperate. And then, of course, you have to go to Forrest away, and Forrest's home record is very, very strong. And you think this is gonna be this is gonna be bad.

但他们硬是从困境中拼出了这场胜利。说实话，我对这个结果完全摸不着头脑。但你看索默维尔替补上场就立竿见影，威尔逊也真正发挥了作用，状态犀利——也许超级替补才是最适合他的角色？

And and and they just kinda pulled this out of out of not much. Like, I absolutely baffled that this went the way it did, to be honest. But you had you had Crisencio Somerville come on and make an impact. You had Calum Wilson make a real impact and looking looking sharp and looking at and maybe that, like, being a super sub is is a very good role for him. And I don't know.

我确实没预料到这个结果。说到战术体系，波特在西汉姆一直打三后卫，这场改打四后卫就赢了比赛，这...这很有意思不是吗？

I I I didn't really see this coming. But speaking of systems, Potter's been playing a lot three at the back at at West Ham, went to four went to four at the back here and and and won a game. So that that that's interesting, isn't it?

是啊，确实意味深长。我为他高兴，你知道的，人们否定一个人的速度总是快得惊人。虽然波特被质疑的时间已经够长了，但这场胜利对他至关重要。

Yeah. I think it really I think it really is. I'm I'm pleased for him because, you know, it's amazing how quickly you get written off. Maybe he's, you know, he's he's had quite a long time to be written off. I don't know, but but it was big for him.

我觉得某些球员替补登场后表现惊艳。帕克塔做了很多...你知道现在人们都在打电话想签下我？我没兴趣。扔掉电话，亲吻队徽吧。

I thought some of it looked so good when he came on. Pakhtar did a lot of you know, people are calling me to sign me. I'm not interested. Throw away the phone. Kiss the badge.

要是他今天下午签下一根巨大的柱子，岂不是超级搞笑？

Wouldn't it be absolutely hilarious if he signed for a massive pillar this this this afternoon?

我还想再次力推贾里德·鲍恩。哦，那个进球的人，他是不是目前在英超联赛中最努力想凭一己之力带动全队的人？我觉得他是的，在所有球员中，他本可以效力于更大更成功的俱乐部，如果他真的争取的话。现在周围的一切都在崩塌或陷入混乱，而他几乎每场比赛都会有所作为，试图独自带领球队渡过难关，至少从外界看来，他在西汉姆的故事中是个真正英勇的角色。

I do also wanna I know I I wanna plug up Jared Bowen again Oh. Who who who scores a goal and is just is he the guy who is the most, like, trying to pull his own team up by the bootstraps currently in the Premier League? I feel like he is, like, of all the guys, he's he's the one who definitely could have been at a bigger and more successful club right now if he'd really pushed for that and if he really wanted that. And and so much is on fire and or falling down around him, and he is the guy who pretty much every game does something and and and and tries to pretty much, like, on his own, pull his team through it and seems from the outside, at least, to be, like, a genuinely heroic character in in the story of West Ham right now.

是啊。菲利普，这很幸运，不是吗？我是说，凯伦·威尔逊确实踢得不错，但他1984年不在马拉卡纳球场，就在约翰·巴恩斯完成那次突破后，他却把球踢向了守门员。

Yeah. It's lucky, Philippe, isn't it, that I mean, he did play well, Kellen Wilson, but that he wasn't in the Maracanar in 1984 just as John Barnes finished that land and then just spooned running to the keeper.

我还在想你接下来要说什么，但这太棒了。

I was wondering where you were going, but that's great.

鲍恩的愤怒。

The fury of Bowen.

我今天早上看了三遍，还是不明白他脑子里到底在想什么。到底怎么回事？他在想什么？还是他被鲍恩在禁区里像约翰·巴恩斯那样盘带过人的动作惊呆了，以至于——抱歉，老兄——我眼花缭乱。

I've watched it three times this morning, and I still don't understand exactly what is going on in that brain of his. What what what is going on? What does he think? Or is he so surprised to see Bowen doing the the John Barnes slalom in the box that I'm sorry, mate. I I I'm I'm dazzled.

我动不了了。这是怎么回事？

I can't move. What's what's going on?

是啊。那么最后是谁射门的？威尔逊挡道了吗？还是两者都有？也许吧。

Yeah. So so who took the shot? In the end, does Wilson take get in the way? Is it both? Maybe.

我是说，从射手本能来看，你得对凯伦·威尔逊说，抓住机会，之后再担心后果。但这本可能成为史上最伟大的进球之一，你知道的。

I mean, on the striker's instinct, you have to say to Kellen Wilson, you know, take the chance and then, you know, worry about it later. But it it would have been one of the greatest goals of all time, you know.

你可以

You could

就这样，无所谓了。三比零了，真的无所谓。就让他去做吧，因为那种迂回跑动，我是说，比巴恩斯强多了。巴恩斯只会直线冲刺。

just and, like, it doesn't matter. It's three nil. It doesn't matter. Like, just let him do it, because the jinking run, mean, it's better than Barnes. Barnes just runs in a straight line.

是啊。巴恩斯就像...你知道的，南安普顿对阵伊普斯维奇时的克里斯·马斯登，我记得。

Yeah. Barnes is like, you know, Chris Marsden for Southampton against Ipswich, I think.

知道这让我想起什么吗？让我想起迈克尔·欧文那个神仙球。对，就是他长途奔袭那个。

Do you know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of do you remember that Michael Owen wonder goal? Yeah. Yeah. He goes on that big long run.

然后你注意看最后，保罗·斯科尔斯想抢着射门。

And then if you notice at the end, like, Paul Scholes wants to take the shot.

而且斯科尔斯的位置更好。

And Scholes is in a better position.

对对对，光是想象斯科尔斯抡一脚打呲的画面就够精彩的。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just the thought of Scholes taking that and shanking it would be amazing.

这是Name的留言：会邀请裁判来播客吗？毕竟他们现在是足球界最重要的人物。我们好不容易聊了四十分钟没提裁判——现在看斯坦福桥，切尔西2-0富勒姆。PGMOL已经向富勒姆道歉了。

This is from Name who says, will you be getting a referee to join the pod? Because they seem to be the most important part of football right now. We've done very well to get several forty minutes in and not discuss them, but to Stamford Bridge now. Chelsea two, Fulham nil. The PGMOL, have apologized to Fulham.

裁判长霍华德·韦伯迅速出面，认定VAR迈克尔·索尔兹伯里和主裁罗伯·琼斯判罚罗德里戈·穆尼斯踩踏特雷沃·查洛巴，导致约什·金的英超处子球被吹是误判。他说这次改判未达到VAR介入的高标准，不够清晰明显，也不是草率犯规。拉尔斯，这个判罚彻底改变了比赛——如果富勒姆领先，局面就完全不同了。

Referee's chief Howard Webb got in there quickly to declare the decision made by Michael Salisbury, the VAR, and then Rob Jones to penalize Rodrigo Muniz for treading on Trevor Chalobah, before Josh Kings scored his first ever Premier League goal as a mistake. He said the decision to rule out the goal did not reach the high bar of a VAR intervention. It was not clear and obvious. It was not a careless challenge. It is such a big moment in that game, Lars, because if Fulham take the lead, the whole thing is different.

《比赛日》里丹尼·墨菲说这是他见过最离谱的VAR判罚。不知道是不是真的，但这结果确实很难接受吧？

On match the day, Danny Murphy said it was the worst VAR decision he had ever seen. I don't know if that's true, but it's pretty tough, isn't it, to take?

嗯...权衡之下利物浦对热刺那次可能更糟，但这次绝对是最恼人的VAR事件——毕竟这是全国直播的伦敦德比，切尔西本来就不招中立球迷待见，而富勒姆挺讨喜的。结果大家眼看着青训小将在德比战攻破死敌球门的精彩进球被吹掉。

Yeah. I think the Liverpool one against Spurs is probably worse on balance, but but but I think it's the most annoying VAR thing possibly, but because it's also it's a it's a game that a lot of people are watching because it's it's being broadcast live in The UK. It's a local derby. It's Chelsea, which is maybe not a lot of Neutrol's favorite team playing against Fulham who are quite a sympathetic team. And then you have an Academy and Me kid score a great goal in a in a derby against the team not a lot of people like.

所以这就像是排除了其他同样错误的情况，从情感上来说，这难道不是一屋子我们不想看到的事情吗？这简直令人难以置信地恼火。我完全理解这一点。我想唯一需要声明的是，我是热刺球迷，对吧？

So that's like to to have that ruled out for something that's also wrong, Just emotionally, is is that like a full house of things we don't want to see? Like, it's it's so fantastically spectacularly annoying. And so I I completely get that. I guess the only thing I have to declare an interest, like, I'm I'm Spurs. Right?

上周热刺客场对阵曼城时，打进了一个完全合理却被判无效的进球，结果VAR介入后又改判有效。如果我现在说VAR毁了足球、我讨厌它、这是有史以来最糟糕的东西，那就太虚伪了，因为一周前我还对它挺满意的。但这些判罚确实令人愤怒。仔细想想这个过程，我突然意识到——如果我说错了，裁判们请随时纠正——现在VAR的运作方式是：他们在房间里查看事件，发现他们认为的违规行为，然后呼叫主裁判说，‘我们认为发生了这种情况，建议这样判罚。你要去看回放吗？’我不喜欢这个过程，因为这会给主裁判施加很大压力去同意VAR室的判断。

So I I can't last week, Spurs go away to to Man City and score a perfectly good goal that gets disallowed only for VAR to intervene and put it back on again. So for me to sit and say that VAR has ruined football, and I hate it, and it's the worst thing ever, that would be very hypocritical because a week ago, I was quite happy with it. But but but but, clearly, these decisions are infuriating. And and looking at the process of this, it just occurs to me, and if we can and if a referee if I'm wrong about this, feel free, referees, to correct me. I think the way VAR works now is that they look at the incident in the room, and they spot an infringement that they believe is an infringement, and then they call the referee and say, hey.

我喜欢VAR的理念，但应该是告诉裁判‘你可能需要再看看这个情况，这里有些你或许遗漏的地方’。而一旦说‘我们认为该这样判’，就会给裁判施加巨大的社交压力去同意，这感觉更像是重新裁判比赛。我很好奇当天的主裁判琼斯先生如果毫无背景提示地看到那个场景会怎么想——在没有耳机里有人说‘我们认为这是犯规’的情况下，你觉得需要介入这次犯规吗？

We believe that this has happened, and we're recommending this decision. Will will you go and look at the screen? I don't like that process, because I think then you're already putting a lot of pressure on the referee to agree with what the guy in the booth is saying. I I like the concept of VAR, but in the sense that you can tell the referee, hey. You might wanna look at the situation again.

这里存在一个问题：当你认为可能漏判时。但一旦说‘我们认为是这样’，就会给裁判施加巨大的社交压力去同意，这感觉太像重新裁判比赛了。因为我确实想知道，如果完全不带任何背景提示，当天的主裁判琼斯先生看到那个场景会怎么想——在没有耳机里有人说‘我们认为这是犯规’的情况下，你觉得需要介入这次犯规吗？

There's something here where you think you might have missed. But the second you go, we believe it's this, it you then put a lot of social pressure onto the referee to to agree with that, and you don't really get it it does feel too much like rerefereeing the thing. Because I do wonder what the referee on the day, mister Jones, would have thought if just completely without context, he was shown that situation. It's like, do you think this is a foul you need to get involved with without someone saying in your ear that we think it's a foul?

但菲利普，现在的情况是：十年前我绝不会认为那是犯规，但现在我看着却不确定了。我意思是，我不认为那是犯规——显然如果你转身时支撑腿刮到对手整条小腿，那确实是犯规。但我坐在这里想，我不知道，而且我觉得说‘我就是不确定了’也没错。

But also, Philippe, it's got to this stage where ten years ago, I'd never have thought that was a foul. But now I'm looking at it going, I don't know anymore. Maybe that is of I mean, I don't think it is a foul. Obviously, if you do that turn and your standing leg rakes down the whole shin of an opponent, then that is a foul. But, like, I'm sitting there going, I don't know and I don't think it's a fault to say I just don't know anymore.

我觉得这又回到了那个点——和你一样，我也不太确定该怎么想了。裁判们总说不是所有接触都是犯规，也不是所有犯规都需要接触。蓄意伤害球员当然是可以红牌的犯规，但如果你在激烈对抗中真的意外踩到别人脚趾——得了吧，没人会反对这不该吹犯规吧？关于拉斯说的流程问题，我还要补充：我也不喜欢解说员实时透露VAR审查过程。这不是那种自然的‘顺便说一下，你看到这个了吗？’的交流——那种随时发生的正常互动完全没问题。

I think it's it's the point where I again, like you, I'm I'm a bit I don't know exactly what to think anymore because I was always told, including by referees, not all contacts are fouls and not all fouls have contact. You know, can perfectly the intent to injure a player is a foul for which you can actually get sent off. But if you accidentally, and really accidentally, in the midst of the action, happen to tread on somebody's toes, come on man, that right, can't and I don't think anybody can disagree with that. The other thing I would add to what Lars has said about the process, what I also don't like is that the commentators are aware that the process is happening and are telling the viewers. It's not as if there was a discrete 'by the way, did you see this?' I didn't' an exchange which should happen all the time, that's not a problem at all.

但公开宣布‘VAR正在审查这次事件’真的有必要吗？为什么要把这塑造成比赛中的重要环节？

But the fact that it's also made public. We understand VAR is looking at this incident. Really? Why is it important to build it up as something which matters in the game?

不过菲利普，抱歉打断——我们不是总抱怨不知道发生了什么吗？所以至少有人在告诉我们进展，尽管现场观众并不知情。

Although, Filip, sorry to interrupt, although, you know, we are constantly complaining that we don't know what's happening. So if somebody is at least telling us what's happening, even though they're not telling people on the ground what's happening.

我们抱怨的是不理解某些判罚的缘由。裁判之间、边裁和主裁之间当然应该随时沟通——不沟通才不正常。我意思是，这又把裁判工作推到了聚光灯下，让它成为比赛的重要部分，而实际上我们听到的越少越好。你看，这就像刻意安排的干预。

We we we are complaining that we don't understand why a particular decision has been taken. I don't think the fact that the the referees are talking to each other all of the time. The the linesman is talking to the to the ref, the men in the middle, who are they're talking to each other, I certainly hope so, because if they don't, they don't do their job. What I mean is that it's yet another way to put the refereeing on the scene and to make it an important part of the action, when honestly, the less we hear about it, the better it would be. You see, that's the thing, it's like it becomes a staged intervention.

‘哦，VAR发话了，这很重要’——其实大多数时候根本不重要。这次判罚绝对令人震惊。我理解有些人批评马尔科·席尔瓦表现得太激动，但这场比赛中——我们还没说到点球判罚——他完全有理由对发生的事感到愤怒。

Oh, Vara said something, that's important. And when most of the time it's not important at all. It was an absolutely shocking decision and I can understand. I know some people are having a go at Marco Silva because he's very he's very extrovert, shall we say, in in the way that he manifests his dissatisfaction. But I think in this particular game, because we haven't got to the penalty decisions, he has every reason to be extremely annoyed with what happened.

对他们来说这是场重大比赛。对富勒姆球迷而言，这是赛季最重要的战役。确实如此。若能在斯坦福桥取胜，天哪，你们这赛季就算值了。

They could have it's a huge game. For Fulham fans, it's the biggest game of the season. It is. If you can win at the bridge, my goodness, your season is is a good one.

是的是的。不，我完全同意你的看法。而且你看...

Yeah. Yeah. No. I totally agree with you. And and look.

我们没时间细谈那个手球判罚——虽然我讨厌这条规则——但根据现行规则可能判得没错，只是实在让人憋屈。尼古拉斯·杰克逊现在行踪成谜，他本已飞往慕尼黑，结果因德拉普受伤被紧急召回。估计正有人盯着他的航班动态呢，话说他经纪人是谁来着？

We don't have time necessarily to talk about one of those handballs, which I hate as a law, but I think they may have got it right under the laws, but it is deeply frustrating. Nicholas Jackson, who knows where he is now, but, you know, he went to Munich. They said, come back, please, because Delap got injured. And so he's presumably someone's looking at his flight tracker right now, whether who's he? Who's his who's the representative?

是个前球员。哦你没想到吧？他说飞机不会倒着飞，这说法真绝了

It's a former player. Oh, you weren't expecting. He said planes don't go backwards, which is a great way of saying

这话倒没错——除非是地面拖车把飞机从登机口倒拖出来，懂吗？那确实算倒着走。

I mean, that is true. Unless they're on the ground, then they're being towed out of the gate. You know? Yeah. Then they go backwards.

整架飞机倒车入库似的。哔哔哔的。那画面太美不敢看。

The whole flight reversing. You know? Beep beep beep. That's lot of thing. Be terrible.

好了看莫利纽克斯球场，狼队2-3埃弗顿。听着，巴里确实曾让埃弗顿降级，我昨天还和他聊过...

Alright. Let's go to Molyneux, wolves two, Everton three. Look. Barry did relegate Everton. I spoke to him yesterday.

他现在倒不认为太妃糖会降级。格拉利什给德兹伯里-霍尔那脚妙传，配上赫斯特式击中横梁的射门——埃弗顿进攻端看着挺有料。

He's now not really thinking that they're gonna go down. That little pass, Nos, from Grealish to Dewsbury Hall and what I finish, you know, in the Jeff Hurst arc off the bar, they they look quite good going forward, Everton.

埃弗顿已经取代水晶宫成为我最爱看的球队，这话放以前我都不敢信。他们现在踢得是真精彩。说到格拉利什，真希望有办法限制球队囤积球员...

I I think Everton have replaced Palace as my enjoyable watch anytime they're on now, which which I never thought I'd say about Everton. Yeah. Amazing. But but but they're they're really fun to watch. The point I'd make about Grealish is it makes me wish there was some way of limiting squads.

这么个才华横溢的球员，在埃弗顿和维拉都证明过自己，却在曼城被埋没在人才堆里。我理解俱乐部需要庞大阵容应对密集赛程，但像切尔西这样囤积天才的做法实在令人遗憾——虽然符合规则，可我们球迷却少了很多欣赏顶级球员的机会。

Because there, you've got a a beautiful player, an amazing player, and he's showing at Everton, and he showed at Billa what he could do. And he essentially, he was hoarded, at City amongst all these other players. And I know why clubs have big squads because there's so many games and because it's not fair on the players, and they're gonna get burnt out. But I I I hate the fact that you've got the likes of Chelsea that they're hoarding all this talent. And that's fair enough for them, but we're missing out on watching these amazing players.

我们我们我们基本上错过了格拉利什。我们错过了这个版本的格拉利什，这真是令人遗憾。

We're we're we've essentially missed out on Grealish. We've missed out on this version of Grealish, and it's a pitter.

是啊。而且说实话，你知道吗？菲利普，说看他享受足球、被爱包围真是太好了这种话虽然老套，但我们都渴望被爱，大多数足球运动员也喜欢踢好球。但在他身上这一点特别明显，对吧？

Yeah. And actually, do you know what? It's such a cliche, Philippe, isn't it, to say, you know, it's so good to watch him enjoying his football because, you know, and being loved. Because we all wanna be loved, and and presumably, most footballers love playing football well. But, like, it's so visible with him, isn't it?

他和球迷的关系。他就是那种...你完全感觉不到他摆出'我高人一等'的姿态。他就是个碰巧才华横溢的普通人，而且乐在其中。

You know, his relationship with fans. He's just so, like, he doesn't you really get the sense he doesn't go on look. I'm on a different plane to the to to anyone else. He's, like, just a bloke who happens to be brilliant, and he loves it.

这种感染力太强了。你能看到他对其他人的影响，所以我特别震惊——还记得你最爱看哪支球队吗？记得埃弗顿本赛季首战吗？我当初可不会这么说。

And and it's totally infectious. You can see the effect it has on the others, and which is why I'm I'm absolutely stunned because, knows what your favorite team to watch, do you remember Everton's first game of the season? I wouldn't have said that.

没错。那场比赛简直...

Yeah. It was absolutely

大卫·莫耶斯狂热粉。哦

David Moyes enthusiast. Oh

天啊。但现在他们有了格拉利什，有了超棒的恩迪——我超爱这个球员，爱到不行，还有杜克斯伯里·霍尔。他们组成了一个非常规的、近乎邪典的三叉戟，倒不是说他们是怪胎，而是这些球员都不符合常规模板，但他们似乎特别享受并肩作战，连大卫·莫耶斯都被感染得乐在其中！

my goodness. But now you think they've got they've got Grealish, they've got the wonderful NDI, who was I I love that player, absolutely love him to bits, and they've got Dukesbury Hall. So they've got a kind of very unlikely, unholy trinity of quite, I would say not misfits, but players who don't fit in the kind of normal mold, but who seem to really enjoy playing with each other, and what is also infectious that even David Moyes seems to be enjoying it!

是啊，还有迪布林等着上场呢。

Yeah, and dibbling as well to come.

噢天哪，没错。

Oh my gosh, yes.

知道吗？他们会很有趣，你说得对，他们会是收视保障。埃弗顿居然成了必看球队！谁能想到这一天？狼队是唯一零分的队伍，他们可能完蛋了。特伦特·拉尔森没上场。

You know, they will be fun, you're right, they will be fun. Appointment to view Everton! Who thought the day would ever come? Wolves the only side with naught points, Perhaps they are doomed. Trent Larson wasn't playing.

他当时在包厢里打电话。我觉得他反正受伤了，但可能到明天这个时候，等他赶到纽卡斯尔时就会好起来。我们也不清楚。令人失望的是，第三部分将在托特纳姆热刺球场开始。欢迎来到《卫报》足球周刊的第三部分。

He was on his phone in a box. I think he was injured anyway, but, like, maybe he'll be at Newcastle by the end of the by tomorrow by the time he gets into this. We don't know. Disappointingly, part three will begin at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium. Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

热刺零比一伯恩茅斯。马克说，你们明天大概会提伯恩茅斯吧。是的。有位伯恩茅斯球迷非常生气，因为我们上周没聊他们。查理问，上周夺冠后，托马斯·弗兰克现在成骗子了吗？

Tottenham nil Bournemouth one. Mark says, guess you'll probably mention Bournemouth tomorrow. Yes. Somewhat a very angry Bournemouth fan because we didn't get to them last week. Charlie says, having won the league last week, is Thomas Frank now a fraud?

拉斯，听着。赛前咱俩对热刺可都挺乐观的。先不说热刺，伯恩茅斯踢得太棒了。早早进球，让热刺颗粒无收。整场比赛热刺连个角球都没有。

Lars, look. You and I had a lot of Tottenham optimism going into this game. Let's save Tottenham for a second because Bournemouth were brilliant. Scored early, kept Spurs to nothing. Spurs didn't have a corner in the whole game.

直到第68分钟才有第一脚射门。伯恩茅斯本该赢个三比零、四比零甚至五比零的。

They didn't have a shot until the sixty eighth minute. Bournemouth should have won this, I don't know, three, four, five nil.

没错。他们表现太出色了。充满活力，甚至有点享受混乱的感觉。

Yeah. No. They were terrific. They were very energetic. They were very this thing about almost embracing the chaos a little bit.

在伊劳拉执教下，他们当然能打出漂亮配合，但不会一味控球。他们很乐意直接进攻，擅长在前场抢断后迅速反击，做得非常出色。热刺根本无机可乘，完全被压制。

Like, they are under Iroola, a team that can put, like, nice passing moves together for sure, but they don't try to hog the possession all the time. They're they're perfectly happy to, you know, be a team that attacks quite directly. They try to, like, win it in in good areas of the field and attack, and and they do that really well. And they just Spurs just didn't have a sniff. They were they weren't able to do anything.

虽然对那位愤怒的伯恩茅斯球迷很抱歉，但我觉得这场比赛不谈热刺都难。因为伯恩茅斯只是正常发挥——他们本就该这么踢，我们也经常夸他们。真正的大新闻是热刺在赛季初惊艳后彻底崩盘了。

And I I think it's hard with apologies to the very angry Bournemouth fan. I think it is hard not to talk about Spurs in this game because Bournemouth didn't do anything we don't expect from them, really. I think they did this is what a good Bournemouth performance looks like, and we've seen many of those, and we've given them credit for that a lot. I think it's a bigger story that Spurs were complete trash after a very promising start to the season.

是啊。这怎么解释？看比赛时你会想，以战术变化著称的托马斯·弗兰克总会调整吧？但这场他完全无计可施。

Yeah. What's the answer to that? Because I I did you know, you sort of looked at the you know, you watch the game, and you think, well, at some point, Thomas Frank, who is very known for changing things, will do something. He couldn't do anything in this game.

首发让我有点意外。我们总说弗兰克很务实，会根据对手调整战术。但这次主场作战——虽然伯恩茅斯很强（我尊重他们，现在也夸过了，愤怒的伯恩茅斯球迷别打我）——居然排出了萨尔、佩里西奇和本坦库尔这套应对强队的中场。这三人都很能跑，但没一个擅长向前传球。

I was a little surprised by the lineup because we've talked about how, oh, Thomas Frankie is very pragmatic. He changes the plan according to who you're playing against. You know? But but here, you're you're playing at home, and whilst Bournemouth are good, and we respect Bournemouth, and we have given them their due now, please don't hurt me, angry Bournemouth fan, I was surprised to see the sort of against big scary teams midfield of of Saar, Paulina, and Bentancur. Those are three very energetic guys, but none of them are very good at passing the ball forwards.

在预期控球占优、需要破密集防守时——但现在麦迪逊受伤了，谁来组织？引进哈维·西蒙斯大概就是为了增加些创造力。不过换上伯格维恩后热刺确实有起色，因为终于有人能向前输送球了。热刺这转会窗签的都是库杜斯这种擅长突破多于传球的球员，意外得到的西蒙斯倒是传球不错，但他们原本只想找能带球推进的人。

In a game where you're kind of expecting to dominate possession and you need to pry open someone and you need to but then the question is, who is that player now that Madison is injured? I mean, that's what you're bringing in Chavez Simons for, I guess, to have a little bit more guile. But but I thought Spurs improved when they got Bourgogue on because then you have a midfielder who will transport the ball forwards in a meaningful way. What they've been doing this transfer window, Spurs, they keep they've already signed Kudus, and they keep signing more players who are good at dribbling more so than passing. And they've almost stumbled onto Chavez Simons, who is actually quite a good passer, but they were trying so hard to get guys who run with the ball rather than move the ball by by passing.

现在看来，托马斯·弗兰克的计划是我们要在防守端非常稳固，然后把球传给那些擅长盘带的球员，让他们施展盘带技巧。但我仍然认为传球很重要，而在这场比赛中，他们真的、真的很难把球推进到前场。我觉得，是的，我真心希望西芒斯能解决这个问题。

And it seems to be a plan now with Thomas Frank is that we're gonna be quite defensively solid, and we're gonna get the ball to the dribbly boys, and they're gonna do the dribbly things. But but I still think passing the ball is important, and this and in this game, they really, really struggle to move it forward. And I think, yeah, I'm really hoping Seamonds is the answer to that.

实际上，你需要平衡，对吧菲利普？因为伯恩茅斯有大卫·布鲁克斯，他可能踢得非常好，还有亚历克斯·斯科特，我认为斯科特也是个出色的球员，当然还有西梅尼奥，你知道的，他实际上无所不能。

And, actually, you need a balance. Right, Philippe? Because Bournemouth have David Brooks, who can possibly play really well, Alex Scott, who I think is a Alex Scott is a great player as well, and Simenio, of course, who's a you know, can do everything, actually.

是的。这种直接性非常惊人，也确实体现在数据上。因为如果你看看热刺，他们拥有三分之二的控球权，实际上更多，接近四分之三，但伯恩茅斯的射门数以22比5领先。这种直接性结合了细腻与丝滑，因为伯恩茅斯阵中有一些技术非常出色的球员，同时也有能快速转换、带球突破的冲击型球员。

Yeah. And it's the directness which is which is remarkable, and which actually showed in in in the numbers, because if you look Spurs at, you know, again, you know, two thirds of the possession, actually more than that, nearly three quarters of the possession, but Bournemouth outshot them by twenty two five, 20. Yeah. This directness. It's it's a mixture of subtlety and silkiness, because there are some very good technicians in this Bournemouth side, but as well, impact players, quick transitions, and people who run with the ball.

我是说，塞尔马诺尔，如果要评选英超最被低估的球员11人阵容——虽然可能不会持续太久——他很可能入选那个首发名单。

I mean, Sermagnor is, if you if you were to do an 11 of the most underrated players, but but though maybe not for long in the Premier League, I think it would probably that that starting lineup.

关于伯恩茅斯再补充一点，因为我刚才没好好表扬他们，对吧？我确实对热刺太恼火了。这场比赛他们完成了28次抢断，我现在面前就放着这个数据。

One more quick thing on Bournemouth because I didn't do a good job praising them, did I? Really, I'm too annoyed about Spurs. They did in this game. I believe they had, like, 28 tackles. I've got the the numbers in front of me now.

28是个很大的数字。看看目前英超的数据，狼队场均抢断最高也就23次。所以28次真的很多。有趣的是，当你看到他们的阵容——布鲁克斯、斯科特、托尼阿这些人，你会觉得他们更偏向技术型，但显然这支球队非常拼，而且他们以某种方式拥抱混乱，总是很有观赏性。我要对刚爱上埃弗顿的纳斯说，比起格雷利什和迪尔，我可能更愿意每周看伯恩茅斯比赛，因为他们总能带来有趣的足球比赛。

And with and 28 is a big number. Like, if you look so far in the Premier League, the highest sort of average tackles per game's wolves were 23. So, like, 28 is is a lot. And it's interesting because when you look at the lineup, yeah, you look at Brooks, you look at Scott, Tonya, you know, these you think of these as more as technical guys, but but but clearly, it's a team who are just really, like, getting stuck in and, again, embracing the chaos in a way that's, like, they're always a good watch. Like, I I would I would say to to Nas and his newfound love of Everton, I'd probably rather watch Bournemouth on a weekly basis as much fun as Grealish and in DIR just for a team that is consistently fun to watch and produce interesting football games.

伯恩茅斯，非常棒。

Very good, Bournemouth.

是啊。还有个有趣的点是，足球运动员必须全能，对吧？我们总说这个人进攻，那个人防守，这个人站着不动，但实际上他们都要完成球场上的所有任务。有个有趣的统计：热刺自2023年10月以来就没在国际比赛日前的比赛中赢过球，这数据很有意思。

Yeah. Also interesting as well that, you know, footballers have to do everything. Right? We sort of say this guy attacks, this guy defends, this guy stands still, but they all have to do everything that you have to do on a football pitch. Interesting stat that Tottenham haven't won the game before an international break since October 2023, and that's a fascinating stat.

说到维拉公园球场，水晶宫已经连续六场对维拉保持不败。他们在所有赛事中连续14场不败——虽然我对跨赛季的数据不太感兴趣。纳斯，这又是水晶宫的一场精彩胜利。

To Villa Park, Palace unbeaten in six against Villa. They're unbeaten in their last 14 games across all competitions, Crystal Palace, although, you know, I'm not really interested in stats that go across seasons. Another brilliant win for Palace, Nas.

没错。我们反复强调体系型教练，比如格拉斯纳就是能让阿莫里情报在英超发挥作用的人。他们每年都失去最好的球员，却总能找到办法坚持自己的打法，保持观赏性，总有能决定比赛的球员。你会觉得他们最终会失去沃顿，但没问题，因为他们有个好教练，总能找到比赛解决方案。虽然我对这个比分有点意外，但不确定这是维拉的偶然失常还是危险信号，因为埃梅里似乎需要不断更新球员阵容，而由于财政原因和财务规则限制，他们目前做不到这点。

Yeah. And again and again, we we talk about systems managers. Like, Glasner's somebody who has made that that Amory information work in the Premier League, the way they they lose their best players each year, and and and yet they they they find a way to still play their game, still look exciting, still have, like, match winners. And and you get the feeling that that that that, like, they will eventually lose Wharton, but they will be fine because because they because they've got such a good manager and they do find solutions to game. So, I mean, I was slightly surprised at the the score line, but I don't know if that's if that's just a blip for Villa or it's or it's worrying signs because you do get the sense with with Emery that he needs he kinda needs a a constant rejuvenation of players and fresh players in, and, obviously, they've not been able to do that for for financial reasons and and and financial rule reasons.

这对赛季剩余阶段可不是好兆头，特别是如果传言属实他们想要桑乔——我不确定他是否就是解决方案。

And it doesn't bode well for the rest of the season, Especially if they especially if rumors are true and they want and they want Sancho, which I'm not sure he's the answer.

菲利普，你刚才想说什么吗？

Philippe, did you wanna say something?

是的。就两点。首先我想回到水晶宫的话题，我理解诺斯的观点，但我为水晶宫担忧。他们不断流失像扎哈这样的球员——记得当初人们说没了扎哈球队就完了吗？结果并非如此。迈克尔·奥利也说过同样的话。

Yeah. Just two things. First of all, I want to go back to Crystal Palace because I hear what Nos is saying, but I am worried for Palace because, yes, they've kept losing players like Wilfred Zaha remember when people said, you know, when Zaha's gone, that's it, they finished? No. Michael Olley say same thing.

埃兹的情况也类似，虽然我们尚不清楚影响会有多大。各位听到这段时，格希可能已经离队了。在我看来，这和布莱顿的情况完全不同——后者是主动策略，而水晶宫纯属被动无奈。你能听出格拉斯纳（显然是非常优秀的教练）对现状的沮丧。

Eze same thing, though we don't know where the impact is going to be. Gehee might have been gone by the time you listened to that, guys. For me it's a completely different situation to, for example, Brighton, where this is part of the policy. In the case of Crystal Palace, this is not part of a policy, this is part of a necessity, which is not the same thing at all. And you can hear that Glasner, who is quite clearly a very, very fine manager, is frustrated by what is going on.

所以我还在想：这几年流失这么多球员，还会继续失血，甚至可能失去主帅。正因如此我不像某些人那么乐观——虽然我很欣赏他的执教风格，但问题确实存在。至于阿斯顿维拉，就像被激流打磨的石头，最终会变得光滑，但在足球世界里太过平滑反而不妙。

So I'm also wondering, okay. You've lost all these players over the last few years, you're going to lose a few more, you could also lose your manager. And which is why I am not as confident. I wish I were because I do enjoy seeing them play with with him, especially as a manager, but I think there's a problem. And for Aston Villa, one of the things, yes, there is this phenomenon of it's like a stone being polished by a torrent over time, and there's a moment that the stone is completely smooth, and when it's smooth in football it's not that great, to be honest.

你需要棱角，需要锐气。而他们不仅失去了锐气，还受制于PSR规则导致内部问题。埃梅里感觉束手束脚，引援也不理想...至少可以说，这些都对更衣室氛围没什么帮助。

You want the angles, you want the sharpness, and you lose that sharpness, but there is also the problem that there have been problems within the club because of PSR, and that Emory also has the feeling that his heights have been tied behind his back, and that the recruitment is not what it should have been, and so on and so forth. And that's not contributing to a very nice atmosphere, to say the least.

桑德兰对布伦特福德，拉斯，这场比赛很多缠斗，完全是抱摔规则在主导。

Sunderland Brentford, Lars, a lot of grappling in this game. This was the holding law at play.

确实如此，但桑德兰这场胜利太关键了！对升班马而言，尽早拿分极其宝贵。就像对西汉姆那场，他们传中时很有威胁——这次就靠这个取胜。我要引用达拉斯好友彼得的数据：本赛季升班马三轮后共积13分，比去年同期的三队总分高出六倍多。

It seems to be, but, I mean, what a what a great win for for Sunderland. Like, what I mean, this stuff really matters. I mean, we for the newly promoted teams to kinda get going and get some points on the board, it's it's it's super, super valuable. It was another game where, like we saw against West Ham, they're they're dangerous when they put crosses into the box, Sunderland, and and and they managed to get a win, from there. And I wanna reference a bit of a a stat here from my very good friend Peter in Dallas, who who points out that this season's crop of promoted sides have a combined 13 points after three rounds, which is more than six times better than last season's promoted trio had.

去年三轮后他们总共才2分，南安普敦整个赛季也才12分。所以今年升班马13分开局很鼓舞人心，但也意味着本赛季保级战可能会很激烈。

They only had two points between them after the third round, and Southampton, of course, only got 12 all season. So 13 points already for the newly promoted teams, which is heartening. Right? But it makes us feel that maybe there will be some kind of relegation battle this time.

没错。为伊西多尔高兴——刚迎来新生儿，第二天就在96分钟绝杀。不过我部分认同基思·安德鲁斯的观点。

Yeah. Yeah. Totally delighted for them. Nice time for Isidore to have a baby and then, play and score the winner in the ninety sixth minute, the next day. But I do kind of agree with Keith Andrews.

我认为，我原本以为他们应该获得两次点球机会，内森·柯林斯的鲁莽铲球本应被判罚两次，而实际上桑德兰获得的那个点球并不算太明显的犯规。不过，说实话，我并没有因此失眠。利兹联零比零纽卡斯尔，比赛平淡无奇。菲利普，我们刚好还有点时间，来聊聊雅尔·内维斯那令人难以置信的帽子戏法吧。

I thought the I thought that I thought they should have had two penalties where Nathan Collins' rogue will be tackled twice, and, actually, the penalty that Sunderland got wasn't quite as grapply. But, you know, I I haven't lost any sleep over it. Leeds nil, Newcastle nil. Not a lot happened, and we just have time, Philippe, for you to talk about Jarl Neves' hat trick, which was unbelievable.

天啊，简直太不可思议了。这场比赛最终巴黎圣日耳曼六比三战胜对手，在图卢兹举行，你可以想象现场有多欢乐。但比分六比三背后的精彩程度远超想象——我和拉斯在播客前就讨论过，巴黎正变得既恼人又极具观赏性。他们的表现实在太吸引人了。

Oh my goodness. It was incredible. So the the game finished six three to to PSG, played in Toulouse, and you can imagine it was rather fun. But it was even more fun than you can imagine with the six three because PSG, and I know Lars and I were talking about this before the pod, they're becoming annoyingly entertaining and good. And they were so entertaining.

有些时刻我简直不敢相信自己的眼睛。六七名巴黎球员在图卢兹的禁区前沿不参与进攻，他们就像一台反阿尔特塔机器，那种战术部署的方式——

At times, I could not believe it. There were six or seven PSG players not attacking in the box of Toulouse in Toulouse. They were a kind of anti arteta machine, you know, that the way they

展开攻势。

would deploy.

疯狂至极，他们放任大片空当，根本不在乎是否会被进球。而他们确实进球了，若昂·内维斯完成的帽子戏法——我深思熟虑后认为——可能是法国足球史上、法甲联赛中最伟大的帽子戏法。我知道严格来说不算标准帽子戏法（非左右脚加头球），所以杠精们别急，我懂的。

It was crazy, leaving loads of space open, they don't care if they're going to score. And they scored, and Joao Neves scored probably, I think, I've been really thinking about it, the greatest ever hat trick scored in French football, in French league football. I know it's not strictly speaking a hat trick because it's not left foot, head and right foot, so thank you all pedants, I know that.

虽然不是完美的帽子戏法，但依然是帽子戏法。

It's not a perfect hat trick, it's still a hat trick.

这仍是个帽子戏法。第一个球，他在经过一番台球式传递后得球——如果真有所谓空中台球的话。球来到他脚下，背对球门，他胸部停球顺势一垫，砰地一记倒钩直挂死角。你觉得这已经够精彩了。七分钟后，经过一次更清晰有序的进攻，他再次得球背对球门，胸部一停，连贯动作又是一记倒钩。

It's still a hat trick. The first one, he receives the ball after a bit of of billiards, air old billiards if there is such a thing. The ball lends to him, it is back to goal, he chests it in the save movement, whack overhead kick in the corner. You think that's pretty good. Seven minutes later, after a clearer and better structured attack, he receives the ball, is back to goal, he chests it, and in one movement another overhead kick.

比第一球更精彩。这两球都不是碰运气，而是结结实实用脚面抽出的完美射门。你会惊叹老天，七分钟内两记倒钩。还差一球就完成壮举。而在我看来第三个进球更绝——这次不是倒钩。他在距离图卢兹球门相当远的位置得球。

And even better than the first one. They're not shinners, they are absolutely met with the power of the foot, and meant everything, so you think, my goodness, two overhead kicks in seven minutes. One more to go. And the third goal for me is even better, and it's not an overhead kick. He receives the ball quite a long way from the Toulouse goal.

大约25码外，他施展了我最爱的足球技巧：用右脚外脚背切击球面，以鞋带部位触球的方式赋予恰到好处的旋转，让皮球最终飞入球门死角。我这辈子从没见过这样的帽子戏法。通常总会混进个一米线前的营养球，但这次没有。若昂·埃维斯啊，还能说什么？巴黎圣日耳曼简直不可思议。

And what he does is, about 25 yards out, my favorite skill in football, he cuts across the ball with the outside of his right boot, catching it with the laces in such a way that he is imparting exactly the right amount of spin, so that it ends up in the top corner. I've never seen, you know, I've never seen a hat trick like this one. Usually there's always one which is like, okay, from one yard out, a kind of a nutrient goal, but there wasn't in this particular occasion. It was, I mean, Joao and Eves, what can you say? And PSG were just wonderful.

比赛疯狂至极，图卢兹获得点球，我记不清那名球员名字了，他主罚被谢瓦利埃扑出——非常漂亮的扑救。但有人提前进线，必须重罚。换由克里斯托·卡塞雷斯主罚，谢瓦利埃再次扑出点球。整场比赛就是这种基调。最后补时阶段，图卢兹竟在一分钟内连进两球。

The game was crazy, penalty for Toulouse, I think it's I can't remember the name of the Toulouse player, takes it, Chevalier stops it, and really good stop. But the there's been encroachment, so the penalty has to be retaken. And the penalty is retaken by Cristal Caceres, another player, and Chevalier stops the penalty again. It was that kind of game. And then in the end, Toulouse scored two goals within a single minute in added time.

说实话，各位，我真的很恼火利甘德在英国不再能轻易观看，这太遗憾了，这充分说明了法国足球在转播方面的现状——你得用那些特殊通行证之类的，但它已不在主流转播平台上了。这绝对是种耻辱，因为相信我，这场比赛是本周末我最期待的，也是本周末、本年度乃至可能是整个法国足球联赛历史上最精彩的帽子戏法。

I mean, honestly guys, I'm really pissed off that Ligand is not really available in The UK anymore, which I think is a shame, tells you everything you need to know about the state of French football when it comes to broadcasting, you have to use those special passes and so forth, but it's not on one of the main broadcasters any longer. It's it's, which is an absolute shame because believe me, this was the game of the weekend for me and the hat trick of the weekend and the hat trick of the year and probably the hat trick of all of French football history, at least in the league.

完美，菲利普。多么精彩的收尾。今天就到这里吧。谢谢大家。谢谢你，拉斯。

Perfect, Philippe. What a wonderful way to end. That will do for today. Thanks, everybody. Thank you, Lars.

谢谢你，马克斯。

Thank you, Max.

再见，纳斯。

Cheers, Nas.

回见。

See you.

谢谢，菲利普。

Thanks, Philippe.

谢谢。

Thank you.

《足球周刊》由塞拉斯·格雷制作，执行制作人是尼尔·麦克维。我们明天见。

Football Weekly is produced by Silas Gray. Our executive producer is Neil McVeigh. We'll be back tomorrow.

这里是《卫报》。

This is The Guardian.

嗨。

Hi.