"超越恐惧的更高目标"——与吉娜·罗塞罗的对话

就在那一刻，我突然感受到一种目标感和某种清晰的认知。

And that's when I decided there was all of a sudden a sense of purpose on a certain clarity.

不知为何，这个目标比恐惧更为宏大。

The purpose was bigger than fear somehow.

我是杰伊·戈塞特，宾夕法尼亚大学女性主义、酷儿及跨性别研究中心的副主任。

This is Jay Gossett, associate director of the Center for Research in Feminist, Queer, and Transgender Studies at the University of Pennsylvania.

今天，我非常荣幸能与吉娜·罗塞罗进行对话。

Today, I have the distinct pleasure of speaking with Gina Rocero.

吉娜·罗塞罗是一位作家、模特、倡导者、演员兼电影制作人。

Gina Rocero is an author, model, advocate, and actor, and filmmaker.

今天，我们将与她探讨她的回忆录《马儿芭比》，这部2023年出版的回忆录讲述了她重获自我的故事。

Today, we'll be speaking with her about her memoir, Horse Barbie, a memoir of reclamation that was published in 2023.

此外，我们还会聊到她的影视作品，包括纪录片、短片，以及最近由莉莉·沃卓斯基监制的电影《玩偶》。

Also, her work in film, which includes documentary, short films, and a recent film produced by Lily Wachowski, Dolls.

最后，我们将讨论她作为政治倡导者的工作，以及她作为艺术家的创作过程。

And finally, about her work as a political advocate and her creative process as an artist.

请继续收听与吉娜·罗塞罗这场精彩绝伦、引人入胜又感人至深的对话。

So stay tuned for a really wonderfully fascinating and engaging and moving conversation with Gina Rosero.

非常感谢吉娜能来参加我的播客节目。

Thank you so much, Gina, for joining me on this podcast.

我记得我们大概是在2016或2017年认识的。

I believe I I met you in maybe 2016 or 2017.

就是那几年间。

One of those years.

是的。

Yes.

疫情前在阿克曼家族研究所的颁奖礼上，你当时就像一股惊人的能量席卷全场。

Pre pandemic at the Ackerman Family Institute Awards, and you were, like, just this incredible force at this event.

而且

And

我记得那次是我主持的。

I was hosting it, I remember.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

你是一位出色、优雅又才华横溢的主持人。

You are a wonderful, gracious, brilliant host.

而且

And

我确实记得那天晚上我在颁发性别相关奖项。

I do seem to remember I was giving away gender that night.

我当时就像在模仿奥普拉的经典桥段。

I was, like, doing my little Oprah moment.

我记得活动名称好像是'千种性别'之类的。

You get a the name of the event, I believe, is, like, a thousand gender.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

那就让我来揭晓吧。

So let me give it away.

对。

Yeah.

千种性别之夜。

Night of a thousand gender.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

太有趣了。

That's so funny.

是啊。

Yeah.

能见到你真是莫大的荣幸。

So it was such an honor to meet you.

自那以后，我一直在研读和欣赏你的作品。

And since then, I've been reading your work and viewing your work.

真的非常感谢你如此慷慨地抽出时间参与这个播客节目，与我进行对话。

And, yeah, I'm just really appreciative of you being so generous with your time and being on this podcast and talking with me.

对此我感到非常高兴和兴奋。

I'm really glad and excited about it.

你很兴奋呢。

You are excited.

我喜欢谈论各种话题。

I like I like to talk about things.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

艾瑞卡。

Erica.

那么我的第一个问题是关于你最近的项目，短片《玩偶》，这部作品是由莉莉·沃卓斯基担任制片。

So my first question for you is about your most recent project, the short Dolls, which was which is produced by Lily Wachowski.

你给我发了试映版，观看这部影片真是一次非常震撼的体验。

And it's you sent me the screener, which is such an incredible, like, really an experience to view this film.

它融合了侦探惊悚与科幻元素。

It's combines, like, detective thriller sci fi.

配乐令人惊叹，画面和摄影都极其精致。

The music score is incredible, and it's so sleek, the visuals and cinematographic.

所以我想从这里开始问：这部电影是如何诞生的？

So I wanted to ask you, maybe start there and ask, how did this film come to be?

为什么特别选择跨性别女性出演这部电影对你来说很重要？

Why was it important to you to cast transwoman in this film in particular?

同时参演并执导这部电影对你而言是怎样的体验？

And what was it like for you to both be in the film and then also directing it at the same time?

还有编剧工作。

And writing it.

是的。

Yeah.

所有这些类似的，对。

All of these kind of yeah.

完全正确。

The full Yeah.

不。

No.

谢谢。

Thank you.

让我想想，这应该是去年的事了。

Let me say, I think this was last year.

因为在此之前我经营过另一家制作公司，专门从事纪录片制作。

I was because I've been a I've had a different production company before where I was producing documentaries.

我从2015年起就拥有那家公司了。

I've had that since 2015.

那很有趣。

That was fun.

那很有趣。

That was fun.

但后来我想，在写作之前，甚至在我写回忆录的时候，当我正在写的时候，我感觉自己完全沉浸其中——让我这么说吧，沉浸在我生活的电影画面中，我是个非常视觉化的叙事者。

But then, I guess, the the the backstory even before writing it I guess when I was writing my memoir, when I was writing it and just I felt like I was immersed into let me just say the cinematography of my life, the visual I'm a very visual storyteller.

所以某种程度上我突然意识到，从这一刻起，我真的只想尽情发挥，甚至以更宏大的方式。

So something hit me that in a sense that I from this moment, I really just wanna play and in a way even bigger.

我认为写剧本项目至少让我能玩得更尽兴。

And I think writing scripted projects, for me at least, it allows me to play even bigger.

所以去年我决定，好吧。

So last year when I've decided, okay.

现在是时候拍第一部电影了。

Now it's time for that first film.

那就让我从短片开始吧。

So let me start with the short.

这就是那种情况之一。

And it's one of those things.

实际上我当时在写一个完全不同的故事。

I was actually writing a completely different story.

那更像是一个非常私密的肖像故事，一个角色研究。

It's more a very intimate portrait story, a character study.

当我和我的摄影指导帕特里克·莫里斯分享时——他也是我的剪辑师，我们曾合作过多个项目——我感觉在写作过程中遇到了推进故事的障碍。

And when I was sharing it with my DP, Patrick Morris, who is also my editor, who's someone I've worked with in many of my past projects, I felt like I was running into a block of moving the story forward as I was writing.

就在那一刻，去年我身上发生了一些事。

And right at that moment, I something happened with me last year.

比如，我生命中许多亲近的人当时都经历着极度痛苦的时刻。

Like, a lot of people close in my life were experiencing really extreme moments of pain in their life.

一个非常亲近的人开始遭受慢性疼痛的折磨，这种疼痛已经占据了他的身体；还有我一位亲爱的女性朋友，她正试图解决一个根植于创伤的感情问题。

Someone really close to me started experiencing chronic pain that have taken over their body to a really dear girlfriend of mine who's trying to grapple with a relationship problem that's rooted in trauma.

这就是那种情况：她该如何跨越它，同时又如此清醒地意识到它的存在？

And it's one of those things that how does she go over it, at the same time being so aware of it?

那确实非常沉重。

So that was really intense.

还有一位朋友首次向我透露了童年遭受性侵的经历。

And another friend who who was for the first time shared with me about a past childhood sexual abuse.

这三件事都发生在我最亲近的人身上，作为艺术家，我一直习惯于通过艺术领域来过滤这些感受——不论是否会写成作品，这都是我回应本能的方式，因为我始终追随直觉。

So all of those three things combined with people that's so close in my life, I was as an artist, I've always been someone who tries to filter through my artistic realm, whether it's something I'll write about it or not necessarily if it will become a project, but it's a way for me to respond to my instinct because I think that's I've always followed my instinct.

因此我开始质疑：我是否该为此寻求心理治疗？

So from that, I felt like I was questioning, like, do I go to therapy for this?

这一切太沉重了。

This is so intense.

于是我决定用熟悉的方式处理——将其转化为艺术。

And I was like, let me process it through what I know, which is make art out of it.

我完全搁置了正在创作的另一个项目。

And I completely ignored the other project, the other story that I was writing.

让我从这里开始吧。

Let me begin here.

从那一刻起，治疗工作坊的构想便与我的兴趣交织在一起，我热爱科幻。

And then from that moment on, the idea of a therapy workshop and filtered through my interest, which is I love sci fi.

我钟爱惊悚题材。

I love a thriller.

我痴迷于间谍故事。

I love espionage storytelling.

我深爱这些角色。

I love those characters.

所有这些元素最终融合成了玩偶。

So all of those combined became dolls.

我是《复制娇妻》电影的超级粉丝。

And I'm a big fan of Stepford Wives, the movie.

所以作品中带有一些它的影子。

So that there's some elements of that.

我钟情于群像剧的叙事手法。

I love an ensemble.

有时我会想，因为我的生活中曾与许多跨性别女性共同成长，尤其是在菲律宾长大的那段时光。

Sometimes I think about because I grew up with so many trans women in my life, particularly when I was growing up in The Philippines.

我很适应以群像形式进行创作。

I'm comfortable with managing as an ensemble.

正因如此，所有元素才得以融合。

So that all came together because of that.

它植根于那段非常个人化的经历，并经过我视角和兴趣的过滤。

It's rooted from that very personal experience and filtering to my point of view, to my perspective, and my interest.

全部选用跨性别女性演员，这对我而言是顺理成章的事。

And casting all trans women, it it makes sense for me.

并非因为必须全部选用跨性别女性。

Not because it has to be all trans women.

有个角色不是——几乎都是跨性别女性。

There's a character that's not it's almost all trans women.

电影里还有另一个非跨性别者的角色。

There's another character that's a nontrans person in the film.

哇。

Wow.

那我能问问，你是怎么成为电影制作人的吗？

And then can I ask, how did you become a filmmaker?

是什么吸引你投身这种艺术形式的？

What drew you to this art form?

因为你确实做了很多...

Because you've done so much yeah.

你涉足了那么多不同的领域和类型。

You've worked in so many different facets and genres.

比如从纪录片到这种电影，而且你还是个作家，出版过一本广受欢迎的书。

Like, even documentary to this kind of film, or you're you're also, like, a writer and published author of a widely read book.

所以我很好奇为什么电影会吸引你，这背后的故事是什么？

So I'm curious why film spoke to you, or what's the story behind that?

是啊。

Yeah.

正如我之前提到的，我一直都在写我的回忆录《马儿芭比》，疫情期间尤其如此，当时我们都被困在家里，这是我经历众多事情中的一件。

I've always as I mentioned earlier, like, it's been writing my memoir, Horse Barbie, during the pandemic, It amongst the many things that was happening to me, we're all at home.

写完东西后，我还是个晨型创意人。

After I'm done writing, I'm also, like, a morning creative.

所以通常到了下午两三点，我就收工了。

So by usually, by 2PM, 3PM, I'm done.

我的大脑再也榨不出写作灵感了。

There's nothing coming out of my brain writing.

那我做什么呢？

And what do I do?

看电影。

Watch films.

那时候我就一直对电影制作人及其创作过程很着迷。

And at that time, I've always been fascinated by filmmakers, the process of it.

再说一次，因为我是个非常视觉化的故事讲述者。

Again, because I am a very visual storyteller.

我写作时非常注重视觉呈现。

When I write, it's very visual.

所以我顺着这个思路继续下去。

So I followed through that.

那时Criterion Channel刚推出流媒体平台，突然间我就能接触到一些最顶尖的电影作品。

And at that time, Criterion Channel started their streaming platform and took all of a sudden have access to some of the best of the best of the films.

我必须感谢我亲爱的姐妹——另一位电影人Isabel Sandoval，是她告诉我Criterion频道现在可以在线观看了。

And I have to give credit to my dear sister, another filmmaker, Isabel Sandoval, who is the one that told me that No Criterion channel is now available online for streaming.

当她告诉我这个消息时，我虽然之前听说过克莱尔·德尼，但在平台刚上线时他们正好在举办她的作品回顾展。

And once she told me that, and I just I've heard of Claire Denney before, but at the time when it first when they first made that streaming platform available, they had a big retrospective of her work.

能看到她所有的电影作品，以及关于这些电影的创作过程和讨论，简直就像上了一所电影学院。

And all the different films that she had and all the conversations about the film, the process about the film, It's basically having a film school.

我看了克莱尔·德尼的一部电影，那被认为是她的代表作之一。

And I watched one of Claire Denis film, which is it's been considered as, like, her foremost work.

这是她的杰作《Vaux Torres》。

It's a masterpiece of her work, Vaux Torres.

我被那部电影深深吸引，尤其是她处理视觉技巧的方式、创作过程的感性，以及主题的选择。

And I was just taken by that film and just the way she was managing the visual technique, the sensuality of her process, and also the subject matter.

你知道，这些全都设定在一个充满男性气息的环境和殖民主义的背景下。

It's all these you know, it's set in this very masculine environment and a context of colonialism.

但她拍摄电影的方式，讲述故事的手法，让我彻底震撼。

And then but the way she did the way she shot the film, the way she told the story was I was blown away.

从那一刻起，看完那部电影后，我告诉自己：现在就是真正行动的时候了。

And I and from that moment, I told myself, watch after watching that film, was like, I'm now it's time to really do this.

于是我深入挖掘。

And I dug deeper.

我去看了更多电影，我一直热爱观察电影人的创作过程。

I went to see more films, and I've always I've loved watching filmmakers and their process.

你可以在YouTube和各种平台上，抓住任何机会去聆听和观看创作过程。

You go on YouTube and you go in so many different platforms, any opportunity to listen to and watch the process.

我太喜欢这样了。

I I love that.

作为一个不仅是镜头前的演员，更是艺术创作构建者的制片人

As someone who's also a producer who not just in front of the camera, but also the one creating the construction of an art piece.

我一直对此深感着迷

I'd always been fascinated by that.

而你不仅是模特、电影制作人，还是一位倡导者

And then you're not only a model, filmmaker, and an advocate.

霍勒斯·芭比的书已被广泛阅读和传播

Horace Barbie has been widely read, distributed.

我想知道——这也与TED演讲有关——你是如何最终在书写回忆录时，坦然面对展现脆弱自我的

I'm wondering and this is also about the TED Talk, but if you know, how you ended up feeling comfortable being vulnerable on the page to write a memoir.

另外，能否向那些可能是第一次听说这本书的人，解释一下书名的深层含义？

And, also, can you tell people who maybe this is their first learning of the book, the meaning of the behind the title too?

你是指'Course Barbie'这个标题的含义吗？

You mean the meaning of course, Barbie?

我很乐意分享

I'm gladly will share.

正如你所想，经常有人问我这个标题的含义

As you could imagine, I get asked, what is that title?

我想说，展现脆弱——尤其是我在写回忆录时——

I think I'd say being vulnerable, particularly I can say writing a memoir.

我不知道还有什么方式...我认为自己既是银幕叙事者，也是视觉叙事者，同时深知当我在讲述故事时，会完全沉浸于当时的感受、情绪和生命经历中

It's I don't know any other way to I am I think I I'd say I'm both a cinematic storyteller, a visual storyteller, while also very aware that when I'm telling a story, I'm very in touch with my feelings and my sensitivities and what was going through in in my life at that time.

所以我很乐于分享，特别是在《马术芭比》中那些我从未公开过的故事

So I'm very comfortable in sharing, you know, particularly in horse barbie that I wasn't sharing before.

现在终于到了深挖内心的时刻

I was able to now it's really time to dig deep.

同时很幸运遇到杰出的图书代理和Dial Press出版社（兰登书屋旗下）的优秀编辑，他们总在某种程度上鞭策着我

And, also, it's incredible to have an amazing book agent, an amazing editor at The Dial Press, an imprint of Random Hounds, who was always pushing me to, in a way, would call me out.

他们经验丰富到能一眼看出我是否真正触及了脆弱的核心，当然也会在涉及大众敏感内容时与我充分协商——但我选择分享这些，因为我知道它们对我的人生乃至写作过程都至关重要

They've done this so many times that they could just sell if I'm just starting to the depths of that vulnerability while at the same time, obviously, in in consultation on on on things that might be vulnerable for most folks, but I wanted to share those things because the things I know that has some really important in my life and even the process of writing that book.

其实我早就有写回忆录的打算，所以一直在收集生命中的许多重要时刻

I was already I knew that I'd been wanting to write my memoir, so I've been collecting a lot of moments in my life.

在真正动笔写这本书前大约两年，我就开始在手机上收集那些我认为意义重大或具有启示性的时刻笔记。

I think about two years before actually writing this book, I just started collect collecting notes on my phone on on moments that I knew that was significant or something that was revelatory.

而我这段从菲律宾开始的人生经历，再回到《霍斯芭比》这个书名，我说这是一种重新宣告——因为在菲律宾长大的过程中（我出生并成长于菲律宾），我人生一半在那里度过，另一半则在美国度过）。

And this life that I've lived all the way back in The Philippines and going back to the title of the book, Horace Barbie, I say is a reclamation because when I was growing up in The Philippines, I was born and raised in The Philippines, lived half of my life there and half here now in America.

我们菲律宾有着历史悠久、充满活力的变性人选美比赛。

We have this very mainstream, vibrant, long standing history of transgender beauty pageants in The Philippines.

可以说，尤其是在那个年代（至今仍被视为一种成人礼）。

And this is, I'd say, especially at the time, still to this day, like a rite of passage growing up in The Philippines.

我记得15岁那年读高中时，我们的变性人选美比赛会在全国电视台播出。

So when I was in high school at 15 years old, senior high school, I remember watching trans beauty pageants on national television because for us in The Philippines, our trans beauty pageant is shown on national.

15岁那年，我记得自己坐在电视机前观看全国变性人选美比赛决赛——通常这种时刻总是标志着新一代女王即将在我们的文化中诞生。

People could watch it at lunchtime.

大约一周后，我遇到了一位专门培养选美皇后的变性女士。

And I remember watching the finals of that year's pageant, and usually when that happens, it's always about this is a signifier of the new arrival of the new batch of new queens to hail in our culture.

她告诉我还有另一场选美比赛即将举行，我应该参加。

And about a week later, I just met this trans woman who was basically a beauty pageant queen maker, And she told me that there's another pageant that's happening and I should join.

她负责准备礼服，基本上就是打包票说我只需人到场就能参加选美。

And she she took care of the gowns, and she basically packaged me that you just need to show up, and you're gonna join this pageant.

于是我参加了这场选美。

And I joined this pageant.

在我人生第一场选美比赛上，见到了决赛前一周刚见过的所有佳丽，我正式参赛了。

And on my very first pageant, where I saw all the women that I just saw a week prior to the finals, I joined the pageant.

最终在45名选手中，我获得了最佳Simpson奖、最佳London奖，并赢得第二回合冠军，意味着击败了所有所谓的女王。

I ended up with amongst that, I think, 45 candidates, and I end up receiving the best in Simpson, best in London, and winning second round up, meaning beating all these supposed queens.

就这样突然之间，我闯入了这个竞争激烈、充满戏剧性的菲律宾选美圈。

So all of a sudden, I entered this very competitive, dramatic Filipinos.

我们热爱肥皂剧，自然也热衷戏剧性场面。

We love the telenovelas, so we love the drama.

我夺冠后，突然在整个菲律宾文化圈引发了轰动。

I won, and all of a sudden, it caused a commotion in the scene in our culture in The Philippines.

紧接着我就开始听到人群中的窃窃私语：'那女孩是谁？'

So next thing I knew, I started hearing the murmuration effect from people that, who's that girl?

突然间。

All of a sudden.

但那时候，我很瘦。

But because at the time, I had this I was skinny.

我有很长的脖子，肤色较深，而且嘴巴有突出的轮廓。

I had this very long neck, a darker skin, and I have this protruding profile in my mouth.

而我戴的假发，突然间人们开始说我长得像马。

And the wig that I was wearing, it's just all of a sudden, people started calling me like I look like a horse.

我到处都能听到这种话。

And I would hear that from everywhere.

听到这些你曾经崇拜的选美选手和粉丝这样说，真的很受伤。

And it hurt to hear from these women and all the pageant fans that you've idolized.

无论走到哪里都能听到人们说我长得像马。

You would hear it everywhere I go and that I look like a horse.

哦，那个马脸女孩在哪？

Oh, where's that horse girl?

某个晚上，我穿着晚礼服在晚装比赛环节登台时，我的跨性别母亲这样对我说。

And one one night, I was wearing this evening gown on stage on the evening gown competition, and this is what my trans mom told me.

她说看到我在台上的样子——我移动的姿态，滑过舞台的方式，灯光打在我身上的瞬间——当我回到后台时，她对我说：'我看到你在台上的样子了'。

Like, she saw me on stage, and the way I moved, the way I glide through the stage, the way the light was hitting me at the moment I I came backstage, she was like, I saw you on stage.

你看起来真的像一匹马Barbie。

You actually look like a horse Barbie.

于是这个侮辱性的称呼变成了自我正名的勋章。

So from that insult became a reclamation.

从那时起，在菲律宾的跨性别家族里，大家都叫我马Barbie。

And since then, in my trans family in The Philippines, I was called horse Barbie.

我认为这同样是种精神层面的自我正名，因为在菲律宾神话中我们也有半人半马的神话形象。

And I say it's a reclamation as well because I felt like it was also a reclamation of spirit because it's a it's we also have this mythical figure in Philippine mythology that's, like, half horse, half human.

我觉得马Barbie这个精神象征必须随身携带——特别是当我到纽约做模特时，在那个无法完全做自己的时期，这个精神象征始终陪伴着我，相信终有一天马Barbie会再次现身。

So I felt like horse Barbie is also this spirit that I had to carry when I moved to New York City, particularly when I was modeling styles because I felt like, you know, at the time where I couldn't really fully be myself, that horse Barbie spirit is something that to keep really close with me, that one day, that horse Barbie will appear again.

因为我曾隐姓埋名做了八年模特，那是个完全不同的时代。

Because for eight years, I was modeling stealth, and this was a very different time.

这是2005年的纽约时尚圈。

This is 2005 New York fashion.

不允许公开自豪地以跨性别模特身份出现。

Not allowed to be out and proud as a trans fashion model.

八年间，托尔的芭比娃娃成为了那种精神，成为了我最好的朋友，成为了我生命中的驱动力。

For eight years, Tore's Barbie became that spirit that's became my best friend, became my sense of I had a driving force in in my life.

哇。

Wow.

这真的很美。

That's really beautiful.

我还知道你对社会人类学和文化历史很感兴趣，了解那个神话人物确实很有趣。

I also know that you're really into, like, social anthropology and, like, cultural history, and that's fun to know about that figure.

有段时间我的IG账号名叫Nat Gina，后来某个品牌改名叫Nat什么的。

There was a moment my IG handle was called Nat Gina, and then a certain brand changed their name to Nat something.

所以我就像是对自然世界、人类学、旅行和文化感兴趣的人。

So I was like, someone who had interest with the natural world, anthropology, traveling, culture.

我当时想，还是改回来吧。

I was like, let me switch it back.

让我把名字改回本名。

Let me switch it back to my actual name.

我还想问问你提到的跨性别母亲，是虎百合吗？

I also wanted to ask you about you mentioned your trans mother, and was that Tiger Lily?

能谈谈她如何成为你生活中的重要影响者，以及你们的关系吗？

And can you talk about her and how she became a big influence in your life and what your relationship is like?

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我15岁时遇见了虎百合。

I was I met Tiger Lily at 15.

如前所述，我当时在读高中，她是一个朋友的朋友。

As mentioned, I was in high school, and she was a friend of a friend.

我知道她之前带过的一些选美女孩

And I knew about some of the pageant girls that she handled before.

她们都是传奇人物

They were iconic.

当我见到她时，我们立刻就产生了那种心灵相通的感觉

And when I met her, it was just that instant connection.

我在回忆录《马儿芭比》里分享过这段经历

I shared this in my memoir, Horse Barbie.

第一次见面时，我还穿着高中校服

On the very first moment I met her, she I was still in my high school uniform.

我刚从圣佩德罗学院出来，是通过共同朋友在她家里认识她的

I was coming from Collegio de San Pedro, and I met her through a mutual friend at their house.

她让我脱掉衣服换上比基尼在她面前走秀

And she made me take off my clothes and put on this bikini to parade in front of her.

她一看就说：你要参加选美比赛

And the moment she saw it, she's like, you're joining the pageant.

从那时起，15岁遇见她，从很多方面改变了我的生活。

And since then, at 15, meeting her changed my life in so many ways.

首先，15岁时进入变性选美世界，在菲律宾各地游历的成长岁月里，结识了许多变性女性、菲律宾的变性选美皇后，让我逐渐形成了自我认知。

One, because at 15, the trans pageant world becoming my formative years of of traveling all over The Philippines, of befriending so many trans women, trans pageant queens in The Philippines, allowed me to develop a sense of self.

当我初次进入这个圈子时，就引起了巨大轰动。

When I first came into the scene, it made a big splash.

突然间，我成了菲律宾选美圈里的天后级人物。

All of a sudden, am the diva in in in our pageant world in The Philippines.

我开始包揽所有比赛的冠军。

I started winning them all.

我赚了很多钱。

I was making a lot of money.

我被公认为是最出色的那个。

I was I was named as the one.

从那一刻起，她开始组建一个新的家族，意思是，你知道的，很多其他家族的女孩开始加入我们，于是创建了这个新家族，塑造了这种新身份。

And from that moment, she started building a diff a new clan, meaning, like, you know, so many other girls started joining from other clan in our house, so created this new house, created this new identity.

所以从15岁起，我们的关系就是母女般的存在。

So the our relationship since 15 has been one of, yes, mother daughter.

是的。

Yes.

她也是我的经纪人。

She's also my manager.

我们建立了深厚的友谊，这种情谊是我与形形色色的人共同建立的，因为我们曾走遍菲律宾各地。

And we were the kind of camaraderie that I built with so many different kinds of people because we would travel all over The Philippines.

变性人选美比赛在菲律宾偏远山区举行，我们曾从首都马尼拉坐12小时大巴前往，有时甚至连续两周都住在巴士上，辗转各个城镇参加不同的变性人选美赛事。

Trans pageants happens from the remote mountain regions in The Philippines where we traveled for twelve hours in a bus from the capital city, Manila, or sometimes we would be in a bus for two weeks straight, living in a bus, going from one town to the other, joining from one trans pageant.

因为菲律宾的变性人选美通常在天主教庆典期间举办，用西方视角来看，这或许是个矛盾的组合。

Because our trans pageants in The Philippines is held during Catholic celebrations, meaning which is, I guess, from a Western American lens, it's theme I guess one could call it a paradox.

但对我们而言，这只是我们文化中各种元素的自然融合——无论是庆祝传统节日，还是纪念特定天主教圣人，比如圣彼得节。

For us, it's just an amalgamation of all the cultural forces that we have in our culture when we celebrate fiesta, when we celebrate particular Catholic saint, for example, where it's a Fiesta of Saint Peter.

那是持续五天的庆典。

It's a five day celebration.

通常会有歌唱比赛。

There's usually a singing contest.

会有舞蹈比赛。

There's a dance contest.

还有各种不同的表演。

There's different performance.

镇上会举办集市。

There's a fair in town.

然后在周日的压轴活动上——通常大多数时候都是变性人选美比赛，这也是我最喜欢的环节之一。

And then at the end, the main event on a Sunday, which is the finale, it's usually most of the time, it's trans pageants where and usually and it's one of my favorite thing.

比如我们去外省巡演时，选美舞台通常就搭在广场上。

Like, when we travel in the province, we would usually, that pageant stage is right in the plaza.

广场正对面就是那座大教堂。

And in that plaza, it's the big church in front of it.

所以舞台通常就设在教堂正前方。

So the stage would usually be right in front of the church.

有时我们会把教堂内部当作化妆间，就在圣像前喝酒狂欢，因为这是节日庆典。

Sometimes we'll go the inside the church will be our dressing room in front of the saints, drinking and partying because it's a fiesta.

那段人生经历特别迷人，因为它教会了我许多。

It was just fascinating life story experience specifically because and it taught me so much.

这段经历让我受益匪浅——我15岁时开始做这行，持续了大约两年半。

It taught me so much to I I at 15, I did it for about two and a half years.

那段塑造性格的岁月让我学会在圣像前更衣、在圣徒像前饮酒狂欢，因为这是节日传统。

And to have that kind of formative years where you develop grit, you develop a sense of really a training of who you are to managing different egos.

在这个竞争激烈的行业里，你要把一群自负的明星聚在一起，我把这称为行业，因为这就是我们的谋生之道。

You put together many different divas in a room in a very competitive industry, and I'd call that industry because it is it's our way to make money.

我想我不得不审视内心，别无选择。

I think I like to think I was I have no choice but to look within myself.

我该怎么做？

How do I do this?

回首往事，我认为从那一刻起，我追求兴趣和关心事物的动力与热情，始终围绕着如何让自己变得更好。

And I think sometimes when I look back, I I think from that moment on, think my kind of drive and my passion in pursuing my interests and pursuing things that I care about is always about how do I make myself better from that moment.

我确信这一点，因为我和菲律宾的变装选美家族至今仍保持着亲密关系，我想在年轻时我从未意识到

I know this for sure, given that my close relationship still with my trans pageant family in The Philippines that I guess at a young age, I never saw it.

比如，他们本质上并不是我的竞争对手

Like, they're not my competition per se.

比如，当我们站在舞台上时，那才是竞争

Like, when we're on stage, it's a competition.

比如，没人能超越我

Like, no one could touch me.

我会赢得比赛

I would win that.

我会做到最好

I would make the best of that.

我该如何提升自己？

How do I make myself better?

如果我在前一晚的问答环节失误了，我该如何在第二天或下一场选美中表现得更好？

If I fumble a question and answer the night before, how do I make it better the next day or the next pageant?

但在台下，我们都是姐妹。

But offstage, we're all sisters.

在那个年纪拥有这样的关系动态，确实为我后来在美国的生活奠定了基础，尤其是面对挑战时如何保持信念感。

And to have that kind of dynamic at at that age really set me up to particularly life in America, of challenge of how do I a sense of belief.

我认为这才是最重要的。

I think that's the most important thing.

而我的跨性别选美经理Tiger Leh，正是她给了我这种信念感。

And she gave me my trans pageant manager, Tiger Leh, gave me that sense of belief.

这种信念感让我能长远地展望人生中的可能性。

And that goes a long way to for me to envision what is possible in my life.

哇。

Wow.

这太不可思议了。

That's incredible.

另外，我从小在天主教家庭长大，但真希望你知道，

Also, I grew up Catholic, but it was I wish you know,

我在菲律宾长大，那是在基督复临安息日会的岁月里。

Volleyball was growing up in The Philippines and Adventist years.

我有着一段非常不同的关系。

I have a very different relationship.

菲律宾的天主教文化非常特殊，正如我提到的，当他们与人们分享这些时，大家必须读我的《森林》，因为里面包含了太多细节。

It's a very different it's a particular Catholic culture in The Philippines because, as I mentioned, like, when they shared this with people, people have to read The Forest by me because there's so much details in in that.

写那本书时我度过了非常愉快的时光。

I had such a good time writing that book.

甚至我回忆录的开篇方式，大家也必须去读一读，因为那简直让人惊叹——怎么会这样？

And even the way I opened my memoir, one has to go read it because it's like, what?

我认为这是因为我们拥有这种非常独特的文化。

And it I think it's because we have this very unique culture.

在我们的文化中，在前殖民时期的文化里，性别流动性有着悠久的历史。

We have a long history of gender fluidity in our culture, in our precolonial culture.

我们菲律宾是由众多岛屿组成的国家，一个群岛。

We Philippines is a is a country made of islands, archipelago.

在我们被殖民之前，在我们成为这个名为菲律宾的国家之前——菲律宾是以西班牙国王菲利普命名的——我们并非一个统一的国家。

So before we were colonized as before we became this one country called Philippines, which is named after king Philip of Spain, we had we were not one country.

我们曾有许多不同的王国。

We had so many different kingdoms.

在这7000个岛屿上，分布着众多不同的王国和群体，跨性别及非常规性别者在社会中扮演着重要角色，他们通常是王室的顾问。

And in in each of those 7,000 island with so many different kingdoms and and different groupings, trans and gender nonconforming people had a very important role in society where usually trans nonconforming folks are usually the advisers.

这些顾问服务于国王和女王，负责连接内在世界与外在世界，沟通神灵。

This to the kings and queens, were the advisers to to connect the the inner world and the outer world to the spirits.

我们也是那些会为孕妇祈福的人，我手臂上有个纹身。

We were also the one who would bless someone who's pregnant to we have I have a tattoo here in my arm.

那是菲律宾前殖民时期的文字。

It's a precolonial script in The Philippines.

它叫拉卡帕蒂，拉卡帕蒂是前殖民时期一位非传统意义上的女神，掌管生育与金色稻谷。

It's called Lakapati, and Lakapati is this precolonial, let's just say, nonconforming goddess of fertility and golden rice.

菲律宾大部分人在习俗上都是万物有灵论者，所以一切都围绕着丰收展开。

Majority of Philippines are animists in our practice, so everything revolved around the harvest.

因此我的族人会向性别非二元化的跨性别神灵祈祷。

So my people pray to gender nonconforming trans deities.

甚至在我们的语言中，我们有上百种不同的语言。

And even in our language, we have so many different languages, 100 something languages.

我们的大部分语言都是性别中立的。

Most of our language are gender neutral.

我们没有二元化的他或她之分。

We don't have a binary teen or she.

因为在菲律宾大多数社会中，你在社会中的角色和你在社区中的存在方式与性别无关，而是与你的社会职能相关。

Because in in most societies in The Philippines, your role in society and how you how you exist in your community is not about, like, your gender is this is your role.

关键在于你对社区集体意识的参与程度。

It's about what's your participation in in in a community sense.

我之所以说这些，是因为前殖民时期菲律宾根深蒂固、充满活力的性别非二元文化。

So it's I'm saying this because part of because of that very embedded, vibrant, gender nonconforming culture in pre colonial Philippines.

而当1521年西班牙人带来所谓的天主教时，我们的生活方式突然变成了各种节日庆典和崇拜天主教主保圣人的模式。

And then when, in 1521, when Spaniards came and introduced this thing called Catholic religion, all of a sudden, our way of living is about these fiesta celebrations and about their honoring patrons, Catholic patrons.

因此我们的年历变成了全年都在庆祝不同圣徒和主保圣人的节日，而过去作为以泛灵论为主的农耕文化，我们的历法原本是围绕丰收周期制定的。

So our calendar became our annual calendar be it was set to celebrating different saints and patrons throughout the year, where it used to be, as animists majority animist culture, it's about the harvest.

它关乎人与自然世界的关系。

It's about your relationship in the natural world.

然后在1898年，我们成为美国殖民地，作为一项美国工程以2000万美元被收购。

And then in 1898, we became an American colony, and we were purchased for $20,000,000 as an American project.

于是你将前殖民时期文化中那些充满活力的非二元性别存在趋势，与后来通过天主教圣徒庆典和美国输入的选美文化形成的混合力量交织在一起。

So you have those amalgamation of forces of very vibrant trends and gender nonconforming existence in the culture in precolonial, and then you have that Catholic saints and patrons and fiesta celebration be becoming our way of the beauty pageant as a culture from an American import, you have that forces together.

这就是为何至今仍存在着如此蓬勃的变性选美文化。

This is why you have this very vibrant trans beauty pageant culture that still exists to this day.

这太不可思议了。

That's amazing.

我想就此深入请教——

I wanted to ask coming from that very yeah.

你提到的所有这些交织力量共同创造了当下这种文化现象的生成条件。

That that kind of vibrant and you're talking about all these overlapping forces that make it that the condition is a possibility for what it is.

初到美国时是怎样的体验？当你移居时，那里的跨性别群体感受如何，或者你个人的经历是怎样的？

What was it like coming to The States, and how did trans community feel there when you moved, or what was your experience when you moved?

可以说，我移居美国有着非常明确的目的。

It was very it was very I'd say there's a very particular intention why I was moving to America.

我母亲这边的家族自六十年代末就生活在这里。

My mom's side of my family has been here since the late sixties.

因此我们不得不经历绿卡申请的过程。

So we had to go through this process of green card petition.

我母亲1995年就移民美国了。

My mom had my mom moved to America in 1995.

而我直到2001年才得以搬来这里。

I wasn't able to move here until 2001.

我等待了六年才得以与母亲团聚。

I had to wait for six years before I could join my mom.

那时，我在菲律宾已经做了大约两年半的跨性别选美皇后。

At the time, I think about two and a half years of being a trans pageant diva in The Philippines.

当时，你职业生涯的轨迹是，一旦在菲律宾参加了选美活动，就会延续那种生活并移居日本。

At the time, the trajectory of your career is that once you go and do that pageant scene in The Philippines, you continue that life and you move to Japan.

因为当时有一条路径，菲律宾的所有这些跨性别名媛都会移居日本。

Because at the time, there was a pathway where all these trans divas in The Philippines would move to Japan.

她们会成为演艺人员。

They would become an entertainer.

她们会在类似卡巴莱俱乐部的地方工作。

They would work in, like, cabaret clubs.

这基本上就是选美生活的延续，而且能赚更多钱。

They would it's basically a continuation of the pageant life, and then you make more money.

谁会不想要这样的生活呢？

So who does not want that?

所以我以为自己也会走那条路。

So I thought I was going in that direction.

我的很多朋友都选择了那条路。

A lot of my friends have gone to that direction.

许多指导过我的跨性别阿姨们，包括Tiger Lily的朋友们，都走过这条路。

A lot of my trans aunties that have mentored me, are friends of Tiger Lily have done that.

那就是既定的人生轨迹。

That was the pathway.

所以我以为自己也会沿着这个方向前进。

So I thought I was moving in that direction.

当时我已经开始接受舞者表演的培训。

I was and I was beginning my training to become a dancer and perform.

我们称她们为'日本行'或'日本妹'。

We call them japa yuki or japanera.

你要走那条路的话，就会成为'日本行'或'日本妹'。

You know, if you're going that direction, you will become a japa yuki or japanera.

我当时正在为此接受训练。

And I was training to go there.

直到有一天，我妈妈突然打电话告诉我你的绿卡申请批下来了。

And then one day, my mom called me, and she said that your green card petition is now set.

你现在要搬去美国了。

You are now moving to America.

其实我一开始是拒绝妈妈的。

And I actually said no to my mom at at first.

我说，妈，我正要去日本呢。

I said, ma, I'm on the way to Japan.

我更想去那里。

I'd rather go there.

但大约一周后，我妈妈又给我打了电话。

But then about a week later, my mom called me.

所以如果她搬来这里，你的身份文件上就能有个F标记。

So if she moved here, you could have an f on your agenda marker.

我妈妈非常希望我搬到这里来。

My mom really wants me to move here.

所以当她告诉我可以在身份证上获得F标记——意味着被法律认可时，我已经忘了在日本的身份是什么了。

So when she told me that I could have an f on my ID, on my meaning to be legally recognized, I have forgotten what was in Japan.

我当时就想，我要去那里。

And I was like, I am going there.

仿佛她在说一个神奇的念头——我关于在法律文件上性别标记被完全认可的梦想即将实现。

It was as if she was speaking this magical thought that my my dreams of being fully legally, politically recognized on my gender marker and my documents was coming through.

我想在这里补充一些背景，因为在菲律宾，我所说的这件事中，跨性别者——我想这样说更贴切——在主流文化中是可见的，但我们在政治上却得不到承认。

And and I wanna put some context here because in The Philippines, in this thing that I'm talking about, the trans folks are I'd say I think to put it in context, I say that trans people in The Philippines are culturally visible in the mainstream sense, but we're not politically recognized.

直到今天，菲律宾仍然没有任何政策允许跨性别者更改法律文件上的姓名和性别标记。

To this day, there are no policy that would allow a trans person to change their name and gender marker on their legal documents to this day.

所以当我听说这种可能性存在时，这就成了我的主要动力。

So when I'm at the time, when I heard that was a possibility, so that was my driving force.

但当我到达旧金山时，发现那里有一个非常活跃的跨性别菲律宾裔社区。

But then when I arrived in San Francisco, the thing San Francisco has a very vibrant trans Filipina community.

那里生活着许多菲律宾人。

There's a lot of Filipinos that live there.

于是他们成了我最初的社群。

So now they were my first community.