特里·格罗斯谈《新鲜空气》50周年（轻松对话）

我们收到了一些来自费城的批评信，说我们向高层妥协了，你知道，就像‘我熟悉的新鲜空气节目本来是长篇的，现在却被切得这么碎’。有一封信甚至说‘春天来了，新鲜空气死了’，因为我们是在5月11日在全国每日首播的。

And we got some hate mail from Philly thinking like you sold out to the suits, you know, because like where's the fresh air that I knew that was like more long form, now it's so like chopped up. We got one letter saying spring arrived and fresh air died. Because we we premiered nationally daily on May 11.

还好你们坚持下来了。是的。

And it's good you're still holding on to that Yeah.

是的。是的。

Yeah. Yeah.

那封邮件。

That piece of mail.

是的。是的。在我脑海里。

Yeah. Yeah. In my mind.

你喜欢节目当时转变的方向吗？

Did you like the change of direction the show was going in?

我不喜欢最初半小时直播的形式，就像我们刚全国播出头几个月那样。因为我眼睁睁看着每一秒流逝，心里想着，那个回答太长了。我被抢走了大概四分钟，连我更想问的问题都没机会提了。非但没有散发出平静的气场，我觉得自己反而越来越焦虑，就像在说，你难道不知道你刚刚浪费了多少时间吗？你懂吗？

I didn't like the format when the first half hour was live as it was for the first few months that we went national. Because I just saw every second ticking away and thinking, that answer was really long. I've been robbed of like four minutes and I'm not gonna be able to get in the question I wanted to ask even more. And instead of radiating some sense of calm, I think I was just getting more and more anxious like, don't you know the time that you just wasted? You know?

这是这是实时进行的。

This is this is in real time.

我想我的意思是，八十年代中期有很多访谈节目，它正成为一种新兴且非常受欢迎的形式。在那个形式中，你想做哪些你觉得别人没在做的事情？

I guess what I'm trying to get at is there are plenty of interview shows in the mid eighties, and it was it was becoming an emergent form and a very popular form. What did you wanna do in that format that you felt like others were not doing?

我没想过从这个角度考虑。我当时想的就是尽我所能做到最好。

I don't think I thought about it that way. I thought I'm just gonna do the best I can.

告诉我你所说的

And tell me what the best you can look like.

嗯，我做采访的方式通常是这样的：当涉及任何形式的艺术、流行文化、音乐时，我会试图寻找一个人生活与其感性之间的连接。就像，有些人天生有天赋，但这天赋会被他们的成长环境、父母、周围世界所塑造——你知道，比如他们是贫穷还是富有，生病还是健康。这些塑造了他们讲述的故事，塑造了他们接触到的事物，而他们的天赋也由此形成。所以，是什么造就了我们喜爱的作品背后的那个人？那个人又是谁？

Well, my approach to interviewing tends to be when it's like in the arts of any sort, pop culture, music, to try to find the connection between somebody's life and their sensibility. Like, you know, some people are born with a gift, but the gift is shaped by their upbringing, their parents, the world around them, you know, if they were poor, if they were rich, if they were sick, if they were well. And that shapes the stories that you tell, it shapes the things that you were exposed to, and your gift kind of forms around that. So, what created the person whose work we love? And who is that person?

你认为你特别擅长做这类采访的原因之一，是因为你曾是英语专业的学生吗？

Do you think one of the reasons you're you're especially attuned to doing the kinds of interviews that you do is because you were an English major?

我认为这在两个方面紧密相关。我一直热爱阅读书籍。所以，你知道，和作者交谈是一种乐趣。我的意思是，我不需要加入读书俱乐部，我就能和作家直接对话。嗯。

I think that is very connected in two ways. I always loved reading in books. So, you know, talking to authors was a joy. I mean, like, I don't have to join a book club, I get to talk to the writer. Mhmm.

我喜欢英语课的一点是，你可以和刚读完这本书的人交流，也可以和可能已经教过上百遍的老师讨论。但我觉得作为英语专业的学生，你学会了读懂字里行间的含义。你学会了什么构成一个好句子，即使你自己写不出来。你对语言以及什么让事物变得有趣有了很多了解。讲故事有枯燥的方式和有趣的方式，而你能分辨出其中的区别。

That's the thing I liked about English class is that you got to talk to people who had just read the book and to a teacher who'd probably like taught it a 100 times. But I think as an English major, you learn to read between the lines. You learn what makes a good sentence even if you can't write one yourself. You learn a lot about language and what makes something interesting. There's a boring way and an interesting way to tell a story, and you the difference.

你会接触到新词汇。我也一直热爱电影和音乐。所以，去发现那些人是谁，那些作品是如何被创作出来的，所有这些，我都非常喜欢。

You get exposed to new words. I also always loved movies and music. So finding out who the people were, how that was created, all that, I loved it.

其中一位做得非常好且经常上您节目的作家是约翰·奥普代克。

One of the writers who did it very well and who came on your show very often was John Opdyke.

是的。

Yes.

我想播放一段1987年您第一次邀请他上节目的片段，我记得是那一年。

And I wanna play a clip from the first time you had him on in 1987, I believe it was.

作家的职责是通过小说的方式，某种程度上描述我们的生活状态。对我而言，这似乎是一项重要的任务，非常值得去做。而且我认为对于读者大众来说，尽管他们可能无法明确表达，但这对他们来说似乎也是一件值得做的事情。在某种程度上，你所做的是——帕斯卡在某处说过——你在把人们自己还给他们。

A writer's job is to, by way of fiction, somehow describe the way we live. And to me this seems an important task, very worth doing. And I think also to the the reading public, it seems even though they might not articulate it, it seemed to them something worth doing also. In a way what you are doing is you're giving Pascal said this somewhere. You're giving back people themselves.

通过尽可能好地描述你自己生活中的幻想，你正在向他人展示他们自己的生活是什么样子。在某种程度上，你是在给予人们生命。你在为他们澄清他们的生活。因此，这并非一项无足轻重的任务，不是吗？

You are by describing as best you can the fantasies of your own life, you are showing other people what their lives are like. And in a way, you are giving people life. You are clarifying their life for them. And so this is not an insignificant task, is it?

不。那是一种很好的

No. That's a great way of

看待方式。

looking at it too.

说得好，约翰·厄普代克。

Well said, John Offdike.

他说话就像在写段落。

He spoke in paragraphs.

确实如此。他说话真的就像在写段落。

He did. He literally spoke in paragraphs.

他说话的方式就像他写作一样。

He spoke as he wrote.

完全正确。我过去爱他的写作。哦，不，我现在依然爱他的写作。不必用过去式。虽然他不在了，但他的书还在。

That's exactly right. I loved his writing. Oh, well, I love his writing. Don't have to put it. He's not here anymore, but his books are.

嗯。我热爱他的写作。

Mhmm. I love his writing.

他描述写作的实用性，嗯。作家的职责。

The way he's describing the utility of writing Mhmm. The job of the writer.

澄清。赋予人们生活的意义。

Clarifying. Giving people their lives.

你认为新鲜空气的功能也类似吗？

Do you see the function of fresh air in similar terms?

仅在这个意义上——我认为你可以在别人的真实故事以及他们的艺术作品中找到自己的影子。听到某人的故事并感叹'原来世界上不止我一个人有这种感觉'，或者'我一直无法表达，但那个人说得恰到好处'，这非常能给人肯定。我读厄普代克的作品时也常有同感。

Only in the sense that I I think you can find yourself in other people's stories, true stories, as well as in their art. It can be very affirming to hear somebody's story and say, like, I'm not the only person in the world who felt this, or like, I've always felt that I couldn't express it, but that person put it perfectly, which is often how I felt about Updike and his writing.

你现在还会从访谈中获得这种感受吗？

Do you still get that from interviews for yourself?

会的。我的生活并非完全清晰。而且，你知道，我的生活一直在变化。随着人生阶段的不同，你的需求、身体、兴趣、未来、现状都在不断变化。在不同的人生阶段，你会想读不同的东西，发现某些内容能以某种方式给予你支撑。

Yeah. My life is not perfectly clarified. And, you know, my life keeps changing. As you go through different stages of your life, your needs, your body, your interests, your future, your present, they all keep changing. And there's different things you wanna read at different stages of your life that you find, you know, sustaining in some way.

你在这里谈到了很多方面。

You said the so many things here.

不，但这很有趣。我在你身上看到了自己的影子。我的意思不是说你借鉴了我，而是说有时在访谈中，我甚至会对嘉宾说——就像你刚才对我做的那样——'给我一分钟。我还不知道想问你什么，需要思考一下要往哪个方向深入'。

No, but it's interesting. I'm I'm seeing myself reflected in you. And what I mean by I don't mean I don't mean you're borrowing from me, I mean like sometimes in the middle of an interview, I even say this to my guests sometimes, I say to them, just as you just did to me, just give me a minute. I don't know what I wanna ask you yet. I just need to think about what direction I wanna head in.

关于制作这档节目，你过去曾说过，做这份工作让你每天都在慢慢被改变。当我们讨论节目亮点时，嗯。我想谈谈你自己经历的那些戴维·马梅特式离场时刻。是的。我之前提到过比尔·奥莱利、卢·里德、费·唐纳薇。

On making the show, you've said in the past, it's like you're slowly being changed every day by doing this job. And as we talk about the highlights of the show Mhmm. I wanna talk about some of the the moments where you had your own Dave and Mamet walkouts. Yes. I mentioned Bill O'Reilly earlier, Lou Reed, Faye Dunaway.

但1999年与莫妮卡·莱温斯基的那次访谈一直让我记忆犹新。在那期节目开头你说过，当被问及是否应该进行这次采访时，你的反应非常矛盾。

But there's one in 1999 that has really stayed with me, and it was with Monica Lewinsky. And at the beginning of the episode, you said, I had a really ambivalent reaction when asked whether I should do the interview.

是的。我们接到了公关人员的电话。

Yeah. We've gotten called by the publicist.

没错。你还说过，在询问她与前总统克林顿的关系时，我究竟是在做一个好记者还是在满足偷窥欲？又是偷窥这个词。

Yes. And and you said, in asking about her relationship with former president Clinton, would I be a good journalist or a voyeur? And there's that word voyeur again.

但这次确实就是关于性的话题。

But in this case, it was literally about sex.

是的，这次确实是。在她离场前有一段对话，我觉得我们可以一起听听。

Yes. In this case, it was. And there's a section before she walks out that I thought we could hear together.

当然。

Sure.

莫妮卡·莱温斯基是我的嘉宾。如您所知，她出版了一本新书《莫妮卡的故事》。让我们谈谈您认为与克林顿总统的关系本质是什么。您曾将总统描述为您的性灵魂伴侣。然而他告诉过您，他在40岁之前有过数百段风流韵事，但40岁之后，他开始努力保持忠诚。

Monica Lewinsky is my guest. And as you know, she has a new book called Monica's Story. Let's talk a little bit about what you believe the relationship with president Clinton was about. You've described the president as your sexual soul mate. And yet he had told you that he had had hundreds of affairs before he was 40, but after he was 40, he'd made a concerted effort to be faithful.

然后他向您坦白，他记录了自己没有背叛妻子的日子。当您从某人那里听到这样的话时，您还能对这段关系的特殊性抱有什么幻想呢？

Then he confessed to you that he kept a record of the days he didn't cheat on his wife. So when you hear something like that from someone, what delusions can you have about the specialness of your relationship?

嗯，首先请允许我纠正一下，因为

Well, I think first, let me just correct because

请讲。

Please.

出于对他的公平，他说的是...我的记忆里，他说的是自己记录了'表现良好'的日子。所以我认为进一步推断他的'表现良好'必然等同于没有背叛妻子，这种跳跃有点过度了，对他或克林顿夫人都不公平。当时他说'数百段风流韵事'时，我也不认为那是字面意思——真有100个其他女性，但我不确定。对我来说，更重要的是理解和看到我们之间存在某种联系。这种联系始于身体上的吸引。

Only in fairness to him that he said he I mean, my recollection of what he had said was that he had kept a record of the days he had been good. And so I think to go a step further and say that his being good was necessarily days that he didn't cheat on his wife is kind of a a jump that's a little bit too much to make and it's not really fair to him or to missus Clinton. And I don't I think I felt that also at the time when he sort of said hundreds of affairs that I didn't necessarily think that was literal, that there were a 100 other women, but I don't know. I think I think for me that it was it was understanding and it was seeing that we had some sort of a connection. And the connection started it was a physical attraction.

那里确实存在吸引力，后来发展成许多其他层面——不仅是身体上的亲密，更是情感上的亲密所带来的种种。

There was there was an attraction there, and it developed into a lot of other things that come from from being intimate with someone not just physically, but emotionally.

您在书中描述到

You describe in the book

在你第一次进行口交时，他正在电话里与一位国会议员讨论波斯尼亚问题。而与此同时，当这一切发生时，你却在想，我们在不可思议的层面上产生了共鸣。你知道，读到这段时，我忍不住想，这种事发生时他怎么还能打电话，而你却在想着你们之间的默契有多么惊人。

that the first time you engaged in oral sex, he talked with a congressman on the phone about Bosnia. And at the same time, while that's happening, you're thinking, we clicked at an incredible level. You know, reading that, I just couldn't help but wonder how he could be on the phone while this is happening, and you're thinking about how incredibly well you're clicking.

我当然不会通过言语向你重演当时发生了什么，以及我当时的感受和情绪。我认为你只需要表面接受那就是我当时的感受，那就是我当时经历的事情。

I certainly am not gonna go through and reenact for you verbally what what was going on and and what my feelings and emotions were at the time. I think you just have to accept at face value that that's how I was feeling and that that's what was going on for me.

这段录音很有意思。是啊。你听的时候是什么感觉？

It's an interesting piece of tape. Yeah. How did you feel listening to it?

对于做了这次采访，我的感受非常复杂。采访前我就心情复杂，采访后也同样如此。我在结尾写道——因为她中途离场了。在我问了一个更露骨的问题后，她就起身离开了

I have very mixed feelings about having done it. I had mixed feelings before the interview, and I had mixed feelings after the interview. And I wrote at the end of the because she walked out. She walked out after I asked a more explicit question

嗯。

Mhmm.

就是在口交问题之后——她就是在那个时候离场的，说这些问题太私密了。确实如此。这通常不是我常问别人的关于与他人发生口交的问题，但这写在了她的书里。读她的书时我觉得，我怎么能不问这个呢？而且我不知道她的书是不是代笔的，当一本书是代笔的时候，我从来不确定作者——也就是当事人——到底有多仔细地读过它。

Which was after the oral sex question, she that's when she walked out, you know, saying that the the questions were too intimate. They were. This is not a question I don't usually ask people about having oral sex with somebody, but it was in her book. And reading her book I felt like, how can I not ask about this? And I don't know if her book was ghostwritten, and I don't know when a book is ghostwritten, I'm never really sure how carefully the, you know, the author, you know, the subject has actually read it.

你在南希·里根身上也遇到过这个问题。

You had this problem with Nancy Reagan.

是的。但我觉得我必须问。我对此感觉并不好。但与此同时，我后来被告知，她被引导相信这次采访是关于她最近的旅行、写书之类的事情，而不是关于与克林顿的绯闻那么具体的内容。这次采访之后，她就结束了巡回宣传。

Yeah. But I felt like I I had to ask. I didn't feel good about it. But at the same time, I was told afterwards that she was led to believe that the interview would be about recent trips she had taken and about writing the book and all that, not really anything so specific about the affair with Clinton. And she ended her tour after this interview.

她并不是那样直接走掉，好像巡回宣传就此结束。

She didn't just walk out on me like that was the end of the tour.

是你结束了它。

You put an end to it.

嗯，是的，这不是我想做的。我不想伤害她。采访结束后，我后来为采访写了结束语，我说，她对这个问题感到不适，我问这个问题也感到不适。而她这样离开，似乎是一个合适的结局，适合这次双方都感到不适的采访。

Well, yeah, it's not what I wanted to do. I didn't I don't want to hurt her. When the interview was over, and I later wrote the back announce to the interview, I said, she wasn't comfortable with the question, I wasn't comfortable asking it. And this seemed like her walking out seeming seemed like a fitting end to an interview in which the interviewee was uncomfortable, and so was the interviewer.

你觉得你听到她的心声了吗？

Do you think you heard her?

我知道我听到了，我对此真的很抱歉。我从未当面向她道过歉，但我会坚持我问了那个问题的事实，在那一刻，我会坚持我问了她那个问题。但试着想象她当时正在经历什么，比如，她到底为什么要写这本书？我猜她写这本书可能是因为有很多法律费用要支付。

I know I did, and I'm really sorry about it. I've never apologized to her in person, but I'll stand by the fact that I asked the question, like, in that moment, I will stand by having asked her that. But trying to imagine what she was going through at the time and like, so why did she even write a book? I imagine she wrote the book because there was probably a lot of legal fees.

嗯。

Mhmm.

她可能签了一份非常优厚的合同。为什么她要进行巡回宣传并接受采访？那很可能是合同的一部分，她必须推销这本书。是的。我无法想象经历她所经历的一切是什么感受。

She probably got a really nice contract. Why did she go on a tour and be interviewed? That was probably part of the contract that she'd have to sell the book. Right. I I can't imagine what it was like to go through what she went through.

你知道，现在我觉得她似乎真的将人生中最糟糕的经历转化成了对他人非常有价值的东西，试图帮助那些遭受网络霸凌的女性。虽然当时还没有网络霸凌这个概念，互联网也尚未普及，但她确实以各种可以想象的方式被彻底抹黑。无论人们认为她应该为发生的事情承担多少责任，我仍然想不出还有什么比她在事后所经历的更可怕的事情了。是的。

You know, and now I I think she's like really managed to turn the worst thing that happened in her life into something that's really productive and useful for other people, trying to help women who have been trolled. Because there was no such thing as trolling yet, there wasn't an internet, but she was really just dragged through the mud in every way imaginable. Whatever level of responsibility one thinks she should take for what happened, it's still I can't think of anything more horrible Yeah. Experiencing what she did in the aftermath.

说实话，在准备这期节目之前我从未听过那段录音。有两点让我印象深刻。第一，正如你多次说过，节目反映文化，而不是创造文化。它反映文化。

I'll tell you that I had not heard that tape until preparing for this episode. And two things stood out to me. One, the show, as you've said many times, reflects culture. Doesn't create culture. It reflects culture.

我认为这还意味着它反映了当时的文化和道德价值观。我觉得在那个时期，那次采访与其他媒体对她的采访方式非常一致。但令我震惊的是，考虑到我们在这二十六年间经历的一切，现在你还会那样进行那次采访吗？

What I think what that also means is it also reflects the cultural and moral values of the moment. And I think at that time, that interview was very much in line with how she was interviewed in other places. But it struck me as, like, given what we have gone through in the intervening twenty six years, would you have done that interview like that now?

我不确定现在是否会做那次采访，当时我也不确定是否应该做。但读了这本书后，我觉得这看起来如此荒谬。不过这是通过我现在的视角来看的。而她当时还很年轻，显然当时并不觉得荒谬，我觉得我必须问这个问题。这不是我问的唯一问题，我还有其他想问的，但这确实让我印象深刻。

I'm not sure I would have done the interview and I wasn't sure I should have done it then. But reading the book, it seems so delusional to me. But that's through the lens of who I am. And she was she was young and obviously didn't seem delusional to her then, I felt like I had to ask it. It's not the only thing I asked, and I had other things I would have asked, but I just it really stood out to me.

你知道，我觉得我可能想表达的是，当我听到那段录音时，这听起来不像是那个以女性力量开启广播节目的女人。

And You know, I think maybe what I'm trying to get at is the when I hear that tape, it doesn't sound like the woman who started her radio program on woman power.

没错。但与此同时，就像我说的，文化，如你所说，当时的文化不同。作为记者，我觉得有责任去探讨书中的某些内容，因为一切都已经发生了。而她在那个时候仍然坚持认为他们是灵魂伴侣，在不可思议的层面上产生了共鸣。看看她是如何演变的。

Right. But at the same time, like I said, the culture, like you said, the culture was different then. And I felt a responsibility as a journalist to, you know, address something in the book, you know, because everything had already happened. And she's still insisting at that point that there were sexual soulmates and that they clicked at an incredible level. Like, look at how she's evolved.

所以我认为我们都生活在不同的时代。如果她今天写那篇文章，我觉得她不会那样写。整个语言环境都不同了。我这么说不是为了给自己开脱，但正如我所说，作为一名记者，我仍然愿意辩护：如果她能那样写，那我就能对此提问。

So I think we were both living in a different time. I don't think she would have written that if she was writing it today. The whole the whole language was different. I'm not saying that to excuse myself, but like I said, as a journalist, I'm willing to still justify that if she was able to write that, that I'm able to ask about it.

我觉得听到这些、听你谈论这件事，其实很好地提醒了大家：不仅是我们会改变，文化也在变化，以及两个初衷良好的人如何会彼此误解、无法沟通。人会改变是好事，这很正常。

I think actually hearing that and hearing you talk about it is a good reminder to everyone how much not only we change, but the culture changes, and how two people with pretty good intentions, you know, can hear and and mishear and not reach each other. It's good and it's okay that people change.

哦，人会改变绝对是好事。

Oh, it's definitely good that people change.

而且我们应该对此保持宽容。

And we ought to be tolerant of that.

哦，是的。你是指抵制封杀这方面吗？

Oh, yeah. You mean in terms of cancellation?

我想是的。我是说，你邀请过的那些基本上被要求忽视的嘉宾数量。你多次邀请过路易——路易·C·K。

I think so. I mean, the amount of guests you've had of people whose whose careers are are were basically asked to ignore now. You had Louis on many times. Louis C. K.

他上过节目。

Came on.

是的。而且我非常喜欢我们的访谈。我感到非常难过，这位我逐渐钦佩并非常欣赏的人，竟然做出了如此轻率且有害的事情。

Yes. And I loved our interviews. I felt so bad that this person who I'd come to admire and enjoy so much, had done something so thoughtless and and and and harmful.

以路易斯为例，是的。或者甚至莫妮卡也是，你怎么看待自传式访谈的局限性？

In the case of Louis Yeah. Or even Monica for that matter, how do you think about the limits of the autobiographical interview?

哦，我认为确实存在局限性。这就是我之前想表达的意思。我认为自传式访谈非常有帮助。我们在其中看到自己，了解与我们不同的人，它开阔了我们对不同文化、国家或宗教等的理解。

Oh, I think there are limits. That's what I was trying to get at earlier. I think that autobiographical interviews are really helpful. We see ourselves in them. Learn about people who aren't like ourselves and it opens up our understanding of different cultures or countries or religions, whatever.

但与此同时，我认为有很多东西被遗漏了。其中有很多虚构的成分。我一直喜欢用的例子是，除了现在的路易斯·CK，很多年前，大概在八十年代末，我曾采访过一位诗人，他当时在我看来是一位非常敏感的诗人，上节目时似乎很紧张。我努力对他非常温和，因为我觉得他不习惯接受那么多采访。后来我发现他被指控性骚扰他的学生。

But at the same time, I think there's that there's a lot that's left out. There's a lot of fiction. The example I always like to use is, you know, in addition to Louis CK now, I once had like years ago, probably in the late late eighties, a poet who seemed like a really sensitive poet to me and who seemed like nervous being on the air. Was trying trying to be like really like gentle with him because I don't think he was used to being interviewed that much. And I later found out that he was accused of sexual harassment of of his students.

我不知道那算是性侵犯还是性骚扰。当时的用词没那么精确，但我感觉非常糟糕。然后他出了一本书，我忘了书名是什么，但整本书都是关于他的性痴迷。我当时觉得，哦，我以为我了解这个人，其实我什么都不知道。有太多事情是你不知道的，对吧。

And I don't know if it was like assault or harassment. The language was like less precise then, but I felt really bad. And then he came out with a book that was, I forget what the title was, but it was all about his sexual obsession. And I felt like, oh, I thought I knew something about this guy, I knew nothing. And that there's so much you do not know Right.

关于你正在采访的人，无论他们看起来多么坦诚。

About the person you're interviewing no matter how forthcoming they may seem.

没错。

Right.

你根本不知道表面之下发生了什么

You don't know what's happening underneath all

一切。

that.

而且我对此不会自欺欺人。

And I don't delude myself about that.

无论你做多少研究。

No matter how much research you do.

是的。因为，你知道，如果你在隐藏什么，你也在对其他所有面试你的人隐藏。

Yes. Because, you know, if if you're hiding something, you're hiding it from everybody else who's interviewing you too.

很多时候，那些人甚至对自己也在隐藏。

Oftentimes, those people are hiding it from themselves even.

嗯，那倒也是真的。

Well, that's true too.

是的。当人们问你，你在采访中的目标是什么？你想达到什么目的？你说过，我想和人们谈论他们被闪电击中的时刻，那些他们生活被不可逆转改变的时刻。你之前提到过不同时期需要不同的书，以及你如何因为做了这个节目、将生命中如此多的时间投入制作这个节目而发生了改变。

Yeah. When people have asked you, what what is your goal in an interview? What what do you wanna get at? You said, I wanna talk to people about the time they were struck by lightning, when their lives are irrevocably changed. You mentioned this earlier about needing different books for different times and how you change how how you have changed having done this show and committed so much of your life to making this show.

在浏览你的作品集时，当我读到那句话时，有一期节目、一次对话立刻浮现在脑海中，那就是与作家琼·迪迪昂的对谈。你在2006年她的著作《奇想之年》出版之际采访了她，这本书是在她的丈夫、作家约翰·格雷戈里·邓恩去世后不久出版的。我们能播放一段当时的片段吗？哦，当然可以。

And in looking through your body of work, there's one episode, one conversation that immediately comes to mind when I read that quote, and that's with the writer Joan Didion. You spoke with her in 2006 around the release of her book, The Year of Magical Thinking, which was published shortly after her husband, the writer John Gregory Dunn, passed away. Can we play a clip from that? Oh, sure.

我想引用你在回忆录《奇想之年》中写的一段话。你写道：婚姻是记忆。婚姻是时间。婚姻不仅仅是时间。它同时也是对时间的悖论性否定。

I wanna quote something you write in in your memoir, The Year of Magical Thinking. You write, marriage is memory. Marriage is time. Marriage is not only time. It is also paradoxically the denial of time.

四十年来，我通过约翰的眼睛看自己。我没有变老。这一年，自我29岁以来第一次，我通过他人的眼睛看自己。这一年，自我29岁以来第一次，我意识到我心中的自我形象是一个年轻得多的人。是的。

For forty years, I saw myself through John's eyes. I did not age. This year, for the first time since I was 29, I saw myself through the eyes of others. This year, for the first time since I was 29, I realized that my image of myself was of someone significantly younger. Right.

作为作家，你们俩都在家工作，几乎所有时间都在一起。你是否清楚自己在婚姻之外的身份？作为一个独立的琼·迪迪昂，而不是作为'琼·迪迪昂和约翰·邓恩'这个整体的一部分，你是谁？

As writers, you both worked at home and you were with each other just about all the time. Did you have a sense of who you were outside of the marriage? Who you were as a single Joan Didion as opposed to a Joan Didion and John Dunn as a unit?

不太清楚。没有。家庭就是我的整体。这其实正是我想要的方式。所以，没有。

Not really. No. The family was my unit. It was kind of the way I that was actually the way I wanted it. So, no.

所以我必须...你知道，有必要重新塑造自己。我并不太喜欢单身的状态。

I had so it was it was kind of necessary to find my you know, to to refine myself. I hadn't particularly liked being single.

你是指你年轻的时候吗？

When you were younger, you mean?

当我年轻的时候。

When I was younger.

有没有某些方面你有点依赖他去做？我的意思是，你知道

Were there parts of yourself that you kind of relied on him to to to do? I mean, you know what

我的意思？所有方面。我的意思是，人们常说他会替我把话说完。确实如此。这意味着我，我只是依赖他。

I mean? All parts. I mean I mean, people often said that he finished sentences for me. Well, he did. Which meant that I I mean, I just relied on him.

他他他是介于我和世界之间的。他不仅接电话，还替我把话说完，他是他是他是隔绝我与整个世界的缓冲。

He was he he he was between me and the world. He not only answered the telephone, he finished my sentences, he was he was he was the baffle between me and the world at large.

她表现得真的很好。然后在节目中途，我们的一位制片人拿着通讯社的消息进来，说她刚刚赢得了国家图书奖。所以我就把这个消息告诉了她。

She was really good. And then in the middle of the episode, one of our producers came in with something from the wire service that's saying that she just won the National Book Award. So I broke the news to her.

我听说了。是的。那太棒了。我之前没听过那期节目。在发现它的时候，我当然忍不住想到了你和你在过去这一年里的经历。

I heard. Yeah. That was amazing. I hadn't listened to that episode before. And in discovering it, I, of course, could not help but think about you and the year you have had.

那段录音对你来说意味着什么？听到自己朗读她这本了不起的书中的文字时，你有什么感受？

Where does that tape land with you? Hearing hearing yourself read those words from from her incredible book?

嗯，我觉得她和她丈夫的关系与我的情况很不一样。但我要告诉你，我读她的书是为了采访，因为这本书当时刚刚出版。嗯。我发现这本书既让人爱不释手又让人难以卒读。爱不释手是因为它写得非常好，情感丰富；难以卒读是因为它太令人心痛了。

Well, I think her relationship with her husband was really different than mine. But I'll tell you, when I read her book, it was for the interview because the book was just coming out. Mhmm. And I found the book Impossible to Put Down and Impossible to Read. Impossible to Put Down because it's so well written and it's so emotional and impossible to read because it's so painful.

我一直在想，如果这事发生在弗朗西斯身上怎么办？如果弗朗西斯突然去世了怎么办？我无法想象还有比这更糟的事了。你是怎么熬过来的？但我的经历和她的确实很不同。

And I just kept thinking, what if this happened to Frances? What if Frances suddenly died? I can't imagine anything worse. How do you endure that? But my experience in hers were really different.

首先，弗朗西斯并不是我的保护伞，不会替我应对世界、帮我接电话等等。你觉得困惑？是的。不，完全不是那样的。我的意思是，我才是那个开车的人。

First of all, Frances was not my protection from the world and answering the phone for me and all of that. You're baffle? Yeah. No, it was nothing like that at all. I mean, I was the person who drove.

他不知道怎么开车。你知道，在很多事情上，我才是那个必须去做的人。但他病了很长时间。他病了大概四年半。

Didn't know how to drive. You know, there was all kinds of things where I was the one who had to do it. But he had a long illness. He was sick for, like, four and a half years.

是慢性阻塞性肺病和帕金森病吗？

COPD and Parkinson's?

是的。而且他在2020年做了一个大手术，与这两种病都无关。

Yeah. And he had major surgery in 2020 that wasn't related to either of those things.

在疫情期间？

In the pandemic?

然后是疫情。他在住院后去专业护理机构做康复治疗时，因为不允许访客进入，我也不能进去。在医院时也非常可怕。虽然我能探望他，但当时没有疫苗，没有药物，没有任何针对COVID的治疗手段。琼·迪迪安的经历和我经历的另一个巨大不同是，当她丈夫去世时，她保留了所有的衣物和一切，因为《奇想之年》讲的就是，他不可能真的死了，所以也许他会回来。

And then the pandemic. When he was in a skilled nursing facility for rehab after the hospitalization, I wasn't allowed in because they weren't allowing visitors in. And in the hospital, it was really scary too. I was able to visit him, but there was no vaccine, there was no medication, there was no anything for COVID. Another real big difference between what Joan Didion experienced and what I experienced is that when when her husband died, she kept all the all the clothing and everything because the year of magical thinking is about, like, he can't really be dead, so maybe he'll come back.

所以她保存着他的衣服。

So she she was saving his clothes.

如果衣服还在那里，那么也许

If it stays there, then maybe

是的。他会

Yeah. He'll

从衣柜里走出来。

come out of the closet.

是的。而对我来说，我觉得我并不真的需要他的衣服。他不是一个特别讲究穿着的人，他不太在意自己的衣服。我只保留那些对我有某种意义的衣服，因为他经常穿那件睡袍，我看到那件睡袍就看到弗朗西斯；看到这件衬衫就看到弗朗西斯。

Yeah. And for me, it was like, I don't really need his clothes. He wasn't like a special dresser, like, he didn't care that much about his clothes. I'm just gonna keep the ones that have some kind of meaning to me me because that he wore it so often that I see that robe and I see Francis. I see this shirt and I see Francis.

我保留了很多他的黑胶唱片和CD。我卖掉了其中很多，因为我们有一个远程储物柜，在我们住处的楼下有个储物间，地板上堆满了一箱又一箱的唱片。

What I kept a lot of were his vinyl albums and his CDs. I sold a lot of them because we had a remote locker, we had a locker in the basement of where we lived, we had crates and crates on the floor.

那里面简直是个档案馆。

There's an archive in there.

哦，那是——我们拥有的比普通唱片店还多。就像住在一个二手书和唱片店的结合体里。就像有一整面长长的墙全是黑胶唱片，其他墙上则是CD，现在那就像是我为弗朗西斯设立的神龛。我把他的骨灰放在其中一个唱片架上。所以他的骨灰装在一个像小木盒的骨灰瓮里，周围环绕着他热爱的音乐。

Oh, it was a it was we had more than than your average record store did. It was like living in a combination of a used book and record store. It's kind of like there's a huge long wall of just vinyl albums and other walls of CDs and that's like that's my shrine to Francis now. I have his ashes and his ashes are on one of the record shelves. So, his ashes are in an urn like a little wooden box surrounded by the music that he loved.

我想不出比这更好的地方了。而且它就在我吃饭时的视线高度，所以我能看到他，他被自己的音乐包围着，一切都很好。这对我来说很难谈论。我通常说不下去。

And I can think of no better place. And it's also at eye level when I have my meals, so I can see him, he's surrounded by his music, it's all good. It's hard for me to talk about. I usually don't get very far.

你已经说得很深入了。

You've gotten pretty far.

你知道，当你和某人一起经历长期疾病，从兼职看护到全职看护，再到24小时看护，然后和那个人频繁进出医院，看着他们慢慢衰弱，稍微恢复一点，然后又更加衰弱，再也回不到从前。这是一段非常痛苦的共同经历。

You know, when you go through a long term illness with somebody and then you have a part time caregiver and then you have full time caregiver and then you have twenty four hour caregivers and then you're in and out of the hospital with that person and you see them just kind of slowly decline and then recover a little bit and then decline even more and never getting back to where you were before. It's it's a very painful thing to experience with someone.

在整个过程中，你一直坚持工作。那很难吗？还是在某些方面有所帮助？

And through it all, you really kept working. Was that hard? Or did or was it in some ways helpful?

这很有帮助。对我来说很有帮助，因为我觉得如果我一直待在家里的话，我可能撑不下来。我想确保保留生活中对我来说重要的部分。我们非常幸运，我们有很棒的护理人员，我们白天的护理员——他现在是我非常亲密的朋友——他热爱音乐、电影和电视，对这些都很了解。

It was helpful. It was helpful to me because I I don't think I would have survived if I was just home the whole time. And I wanted to make sure that I maintained part of my life that was important to me. And we were very lucky. We had wonderful caregivers and our daytime caregiver, who is now a very close friend of mine, he loves music and he loves movies and he loves television and keeps up with all of that.

所以他和弗朗西斯会有很棒的交谈。德夫会带他去看电影，当有弗朗西斯想看的片子时。要么在辅助下步行去，即使坐轮椅，我们的护理员也非常强壮，我们能推着他过鹅卵石路去电影院。弗朗西斯也喜欢独处。

And so he and Francis would have like great talks. And Dev would, you know, he'd take him to the movies when there was something that, you know, Francis wanted to see. And either, you know, he'd be able to walk there with with assistance or even if he was in a wheelchair, our caregiver was like very very strong. And we just like wheel him over the cobblestones and to get to the movie theater. And Francis also liked to be alone.

他很多时候真的想一个人待着。所以独自在办公室、在我们家里就是他想要的。如果我在那儿，我们也不会整天都在一起。所以我觉得困难的是，晚上我还得工作，做更多研究。

He really wanted to be alone a lot of the time. And so just being alone in his office, in our home was what he wanted. If I was there, it's not like we would be spending all day together, you know. So I think what was hard was that I had to work in the evenings too to do more research.

记得一开始你提到过，通过那个莫里斯·桑达克的录音带

Remember in the beginning you said that with that Maurice Sendak tape

是的。我们稍后会听到一点

Yeah. Which we'll we'll hear a little bit of at

在这里结尾处，你得以和他进行了关于死亡的对话，而这却是你没能和父母进行的。你是否能够进行那些

the end here, that you got to have the conversation about death with him that you didn't get to have with your parents. Were you able to have those

我需要一点时间。抱歉。

I'm gonna need a minute. I'm sorry.

没关系。不，真的没关系。

It's okay. No, it's okay.

控制室里有人有纸巾吗？

Does anyone in the control room have a tissue?

我想我其实有。

I think actually, I do.

只是对我来说这来得太快了。

It's just it's very soon for me.

如果你想的话，我们可以聊点别的，特里。

We can talk about something else if you want, Terry.

答案是，我……我……我……我其实从来没有真正好好谈过这件事。我觉得弗朗西斯很难在情感上谈论它。

The answer was I I I I never really did quite have that conversation. I think it was very hard for Francis to talk emotionally about it.

对大多数人来说都很难。

It's hard for most people.

我知道。我知道。

I know. I know.

尽管这是你经常问的事情。我知道。而且你很擅长提问

Even though it's something you often ask. I know. And you're so good at asking

关于我知道。我尝试过。

about I know. I tried.

你和他尝试过？

You tried with him?

是的。但你知道，与受访者之间有一种距离感，让你觉得可以无所不问。我总是告诉我的嘉宾，如果我问了什么太私人的问题，请告诉我，我会转向其他话题。当我问一些我认为可能越界的超级私人问题时，我会说，这就是我所说的'如果我问了太私人的问题'的意思，如果你告诉我这太私人了，你不会冒犯到我。所以我会问这个问题，你可以选择不问或不回答。

Yeah. But you know, there's a distance that you have with an interviewee where you can you feel empowered to ask anything. And I always tell my guests, if I ask you anything too personal, let me know and I'll move on to something else. And when I'm asking something super personal that I think might be crossing a line, I'll say, this is what I This question is what I meant when I said, if I ask you anything too personal and you're not you're not going to offend me if you tell me it's too personal. So I'll ask the question, feel free not to ask it or not to answer it.

但在问我非常亲近的人这类事情时，我会更加谨慎。因为，这是一种不同的关系。

But I'm more cautious when asking people who I'm really close to about things like that. Because like, it's it's a it's a different relationship.

是的。我一直在思考这个问题。

Yeah. I think about this all the time.

真的吗？你有什么想法？

Do you really? What are your thoughts?

这很难，因为和你一起做这件事的一部分，我一开始就知道我们必须谈论这个。但另一部分。

It's hard because part part of part of doing this with you, I knew going in that we would have to talk about this. But the other part.

你需要你的屁股吗？是的。

Do you need your tush? Yeah.

我一遍又一遍地听你说，要成为一个敏感的采访者，我就必须是个糟糕的朋友。我在采访中听你这么说过

I've heard you say over and over and over again that to be a sensitive interviewer, I have to be a lousy friend. I've heard you say that in interviews for

是的。

Yeah.

二十五年了。是的。所以我在想，我们对生活中的人提出的要求，与对光纤另一端或桌子对面的人提出的要求有何不同。

Twenty five years. Yeah. And so I I'm thinking about what we ask the people in our lives versus what we ask of the people over the fiber optic cable or across the table.

但我的意思有所不同。我的意思是，我没有时间。我当时没有时间交朋友。我指的不是我与朋友的关系，也不是我问朋友的问题。我纯粹是指，就像，我是个糟糕的朋友，因为如果你晚上给我打电话，我没法和你聊天。

What I meant though was something different. What I meant was I I don't have time. I didn't then have time for friends. And I didn't mean in terms of my relationship I didn't mean in terms of the questions that I ask friends. I meant this solely as, like, I'm a lousy friend because if you call me in the evening, I'm not gonna be able to talk to you.

但说到重点，有些问题我们愿意在录音中询问他人。是的。那些重要的事情，有时我们在生活中却没能来得及向身边的人开口。

But to the point, there are things that we're willing to ask people on tape. Yes. The important things that we sometimes don't get around to asking people in our lives.

我认为对我来说，如果侵犯来自我非常亲近的人，感觉会更糟糕。

I think for me, the violation seems worse if it's somebody who I'm very close with.

那么，告诉我你具体指的是什么。

Well, tell me what you mean by that.

因为通常，如果我像采访琼·迪迪昂那样询问嘉宾关于丈夫去世的事，那是因为她写过相关的内容。如果死亡不是他们作品的主题，或者我认为他们无法承受，我就不太可能去问。性话题也是如此。当我问别人关于性的问题，是因为他们写过相关作品，比如莫妮卡·莱温斯基。

Because usually if I'm asking a a guest about the death of a husband, like I did with Joan Didion, it's because she's written about it. I'm not likely to ask somebody about death if it hasn't been a subject of their work or if I don't think that they can handle it. Ditto with sex. When I ask somebody about sex, it's because they've written about it. Like Monica Lewinsky.

或者约翰·厄普代克。

Or John Updike.

或者约翰·厄普代克。但他非常擅长描写这方面。我能引用他的一句话吗？他说，发生性关系前的恰当礼仪是什么？你会先问对方是否需要上厕所吗？

Or John Updike. But he was great about writing about it. Can I just quote you one line? So he he said, what is the proper etiquette before having sex? Do you ask if the person needs to use the bathroom first?

就像你们要一起长途旅行一样？我觉得这真是太妙了。

As if you were going on a long trip together? Just think that's so great.

这太神奇了。他是个好色之徒，或者至少是个，嗯。

That's amazing. He was he was a horny man, or at least a Yeah.

所以我的意思是，他在人际关系上可能有问题，但你明白我的意思吗？但就他描述事物的能力而言，无论如何，这不像我父母临终时我对他们说的那样——我不会因为你不想回答而生气。所以我会问这个问题，你可以选择不回答。这非常专业、体贴，对吧。

So I I'd mean have trouble with his relationships probably, but do you know what mean? But in terms of his ability to describe things, anyhow, it's not like I say to my parents when they're my parents were dying, like, I won't be offended if you don't answer this. So I'll ask the question and feel free not to answer it. That's a very professional, thoughtful Right.

这是在医院里的部分，如果你不喜欢我关于死亡的问题，现在是时候说我不喜欢这个。

This is the part in the hospital where if you don't like my questions about dying, this is the time to say I don't like this.

是的。所以我的意思是，我非常温和地提出并退后了，因为我能直觉到父母在想什么。我能从我丈夫脸上的表情看出他在想什么，是否真的想谈论某事，如果我看到‘现在不行’的信号，我就不需要继续了。

Yeah. I so I mean, I I asked it very gently and and backed off because I can intuit I can intuit what parents are thinking. I can can tell by the look on my husband's face what what he's thinking, whether he really wants to, you know, talk about something and and I don't I don't need to go any further if I see the not now.

再休息一次后，我与特里·格罗斯的对话结束。你在本集一开始就提到了这一点。两个半星期后，你回到办公室，开始工作，制作了这篇关于你已故丈夫的作品。我今天早上重新听了一遍，简直他妈的了不起。

After one more break, the end of my conversation with Terry Gross. You you mentioned this right right at the beginning of this episode. Two and a half weeks removed. You got back in this office, and you got to work, and you made this piece about your late husband. And I relistened to it this morning, and it's just it's just fucking remarkable.

哦，谢谢。让我印象深刻的一点是，你给了其他人的话语和描述如此多的空间。你引用了杂志和报纸的内容，我想知道你是否这样做，一是因为你是个好记者，二是因为那时你还没有找到合适的词语。

Oh, thank you. And one of the things that stuck out to me is how you gave so much space to the words and descriptions of other people. You quoted from magazine after newspaper, and I was wondering if you did that, one, because you're a good journalist, and two, because at that point, you didn't have the words yet.

我没有合适的词语。我的意思是，我不是个伟大的作家，我想我已经说得很清楚了。而且我有偏见。我的意思是，我在爱上他之前或同时爱上了他的写作。

I don't have the words. I mean, I'm not a I'm not a great writer. Think I've made that clear. And also I'm biased. I mean, I fell in love with his writing before I fell in love with him or at the same time.

我爱上他的部分原因在于他的文字。我不是指甜言蜜语，而是他在对话和文章中运用词汇的方式如此精妙。作为一个热爱写作的人，这让我产生了非常深厚的情感。之后有很多人来找我或写信给我说，我完全不知道他取得了这么多成就，享有如此高的声誉。因为事实上，爵士乐如今已成为一种非常小众的音乐类型。

And part of how I fell in love with him was his words. I don't mean sweet talking me, mean just he he just used words in conversation and on the page like just so well. And loving writing as I do, you know, made me just have very deep feelings. And I had a lot of people come up to me and write to me afterwards saying like, I had no idea of all the things that he'd accomplished and how highly regarded he was. Because the truth is jazz has become a very, you know, niche kind of music now.

大多数人并不听爵士乐。更重要的是，大多数人也不读爵士乐评。

And most people don't listen to jazz. Even more, most people don't read jazz criticism.

你知道我们的主题音乐。所以对我来说，是的。我明白你的意思。

You know our theme music. So to me Yes. I know what you're saying.

而且我非常喜欢你们的主题音乐。

And I like your theme music a lot.

我只是不理解，因为对我来说这非常重要。我想引用他写的一段话。是的。在《大西洋月刊》上，他写了一篇关于约翰尼·卡什的文章，这位曾在九十年代末上过你的节目的人，并不喜欢接受采访，但却对你说，伙计，你真的很擅长你的工作。他就是这么对你说的。

I just don't understand because to me it's very important. I wanna quote something he wrote. Yes. In The Atlantic, he wrote a piece about Johnny Cash, someone who came on your show in the late nineties, who didn't love doing interviews, but said, boy, you're really good at your job. That's what he said to you.

你还记得吗？

Do you remember that?

是的，我记得。那种赞美你会一直记在心里。

Yeah. I do. And that's the kind of thing you keep in your mind.

你丈夫写过关于约翰尼·卡什的文章。他三十多岁后期才被电视界发现，那时已经历尽沧桑。稍长的头发和中年的阴影与沟壑让他面容的个性更加突出，几乎称得上英俊。中年的阴影与沟壑。

Your husband wrote about Johnny Cash. He was in his late thirties and already had plenty of mileage on him when he was discovered by television. Longer hair and the shadows and dents of middle age brought out the character in his face, making him almost handsome. The shadows and dents of middle age.

我太喜欢这句话了。这是我在致敬文中读到的内容之一。真希望我也能写出这样的句子，但我完全没这个能力。不过当你看着约翰尼·卡什的脸时，你会完全明白'阴影与沟壑'意味着什么。

I love that line so much. I that's one of the things I read in the in my tribute to him. I wish I could come up with something like that. I'm totally incapable of it. But when you look at Johnny Cash's face and you know exactly what shadows and dents means.

你知道吗，我在思考这些'阴影与沟壑'与你主持《新鲜空气》五十年后的第三人生阶段的关系。关于你何时以及是否会退休一直有很多猜测。嗯。这是你感兴趣的事情吗？

You know, I was thinking about the shadows and dents in relation to this third act of yours after doing fifty years of fresh air. There's been so much speculation about when and whether you would retire. Mhmm. Is that something you're interested in?

现在不是。不。你知道有句话说，从没有人临终时会说'真希望我在办公室多待些时间'。但我觉得如果你对自己的工作充满热情——这在某种程度上也是我们这次采访的主题——那就不是在办公室消磨时间，而是在做你热爱的事情。工作确实给我的生活带来了重心和意义。

Not now. No. I you know, there's the saying that nobody ever on their deathbed says, oh, wish I spent more time in the office. Well, I think if you're passionate about your work, which has been a kind of theme of the interview in a way, you know, of our interview, that it's not time in the office, it's doing something you're passionate about. Like, work really gives my life a focus and meaning.

我觉得我的工作非常有意义。这不像是我要退休去打高尔夫，或者退休去写那部我一直没时间写的伟大美国小说——虽然我知道只要有时间，我肯定能写出来。但我对写书的态度是：绝不再写了。这本书是我访谈集的汇编，配有一篇较长的开篇文章，

I find my work very meaningful. And it's not like, I'm gonna retire and golf, or I'm gonna retire and write the great American novel, which I just haven't had time to write. But I know given the time, I've got it in me. My attitude about writing a book is like never again. This book, which is a collection of my interviews with a kind of long opening essay,

我

I

有一位出色的合作者玛格丽特·穆斯·皮克，她负责了大部分访谈内容的编辑工作。虽然她承担了主要的编辑工作，但光是重写介绍语和撰写开篇文章就耗时极久。我简直无法形容，这还是在有人帮助的情况下。

had an excellent collaborator, Margaret Moose Pick, and she did a lot of the editing of the interviews. She did most of the editing of the interviews, and yet, just like doing, rewriting intros and writing the opening essay, and then it was so time consuming. I I can't begin to tell you, and that's with help.

所以这份赋予你生命意义的工作，五十年来一直赋予它意义的工作，在我们所处的这个时刻，为NPR、PBS及全国各电台提供的11亿美元资金已被取消。这项削减经投票并在参议院通过，部分原因是宾夕法尼亚州的戴夫·麦考密克投票支持。《纽约时报》称这些削减是对公共媒体系统的一颗定时炸弹。作为一位几乎将毕生时间和精力奉献给这一媒介的人，你如何看待公共媒体的未来？

So this job that gives your life meaning, that has given it meaning for as long as it has, for fifty years, we're living in a moment where $1,100,000,000 in funding for NPR and PBS and stations across the country have been eliminated. It was voted on and passed through the senate in part because of Pennsylvania's own Dave McCormick who voted in favor of this cut. The New York Times have called the cuts a time bomb for the public media system. As someone who has given as as as much of their time and life to this medium as just about anyone still doing it, How are you thinking about the future of public media?

我不知道会发生什么。我不知道是否会有更多的企业赞助或听众支持。但我知道一些电台可能会倒闭。我知道一些电台可能不得不退出NPR成员资格，因为作为电台，你必须支付会费才能成为NPR成员。这些会费有助于支持NPR。

I don't know what to expect. I don't know whether there will be more corporate underwriting coming through or listener support. But I know that some stations will probably go under. I know some stations might have to not be NPR members anymore because they you have to pay dues to become a member of NPR if you're a station. And those dues help support NPR.

电台支付费用来播放我们的节目。我不知道会发生什么。我我想公共广播可能会以某种形式存活下来。但形式可能会发生很大变化。我不确定。

And stations pay a fee to carry our show. I don't know what to expect. I I think the I think public radio will probably survive in some form. I think the form might really change. I don't know.

我真的不是预测任何事情的正确人选。我不擅长这个，我也不知道。

I'm really not the right person to predict anything. I'm not I'm not I'm not good at that, and I don't know.

我不关心预测。我更关注的是你说过，你没有任何退休计划。

I'm not I'm not concerned about predictions. I want I'm more focused on the fact that you say, I have no plans of retirement.

没错。

Right.

作为一位身处这颗定时炸弹之中的人

As someone who's going within the time bomb

是的。

Yeah.

正如《纽约时报》所说，我想坚持下去，做这份赋予我意义的工作。你日常感觉如何？

As the New York Times called it, I wanna stick it out and do this job that gives me meaning. How are you feeling day to day?

日常来说，我只是做好我的工作。我不会每天思考公共媒体的长远未来，至少不会以消耗性的方式去想。我经常思考这个问题，但我不知道未来会怎样。具体说到公共广播，它确实为美国文化和新闻业做出了巨大贡献。

Day to day, I just do my job. I don't think about the long term future of public media day to day, at least not in a in a consuming way. I think about it a lot, and I don't know what the future will bring. I do know I'll just speak specifically about public radio right now. It has contributed so much to American culture and journalism.

你知道，在音频领域，仍然没有什么能比得上《All Things Considered》或《Morning Edition》。绝对没有。播客有无数个，但没有一个在世界各地都有记者。也许BBC有个播客。

You know, there is still nothing in the audio space that's like All Things Considered or Morning Edition. Absolutely nothing. There's a zillion podcasts. None of them have reporters around the world. May maybe the BBC has a podcast.

但广播里没有那样的内容。让我这么说吧。因为《All Things Considered》和《Morning Edition》并不是完整的播客节目。但广播里没有类似的东西。很多社区在文化上与许多正在发生的事情隔绝。

But there's nothing on the radio. Let me put it that way. Because all things considered in Morning Edition aren't whole shows on the podcast. But there's nothing on radio like that. There's a lot of communities that are cut off culturally from a lot of what's happening.

而且，你知道，很多社区真的依赖公共广播来获取文化新闻。甚至不是每个人都知道怎么做播客，怎么访问它们。我遇到很多人不知道。所以当我开始进入公共媒体，进入公共广播时，大概是1973或74年。《All Things Considered》才只有两三年历史。

And they've, you know, a lot of those communities have really relied on public radio for their cultural news. And not everybody even knows how to do podcasts, how to access them. I meet a lot of people who don't know. So when I started in public media, when I started in public radio, it was like 1973 or '4. All Things Considered was only two or three years old.

当时没人知道公共广播是什么。我父母觉得这一定是某种业余的东西，因为他们从没听说过。这不会是一个严肃的职业。你应该找点别的事做。但看看它是如何发展起来的。

No one knew what public radio was. My parents thought like this some kind of this must be some kind of amateurish thing because I've never heard of it. It's not gonna be a serious career. You should find something else. But look at how it grew.

看看有多少艺术家通过公共广播节目与观众建立了联系。看看它催生了多少节目，比如我们的节目。如果没有公共广播公司（CPB）的重大资助，我们根本不可能走向全国。《世界咖啡馆》节目也是如此。仅仅依靠一笔地方拨款，它就帮助建立了WHYY电台，让我们在比尔·西姆林任职期间创建了一个新闻编辑室。

Look at how many artists were connected to audiences through public radio shows. Look at how many shows it helped create like our show. We could never have gone national without a very major CPB fund. The show World Cafe, same thing. It helped build WHYY with just a a local grant that enabled us to create a newsroom when Bill Seemring was here.

如此多的播客都受到公共广播节目的启发。《美国生活》、《连环案》、《长篇访谈节目》——这些都是公共广播的衍生物。多年来，我一直觉得我们毫无竞争。我不是单指我们的节目，而是指像NPR节目、NPR电台这样的。为什么商业媒体中没有人尝试复制我们所做的事情呢？

So many podcasts are inspired by public radio shows. This American Life, Serial, Long Form Interview shows, their outgrowths of public radio. And for years, I felt like we have no competition. I don't mean our show, I mean like NPR shows, NPR stations. There's no How come someone in commercial media isn't trying to copy what we do?

因为它太好了，拥有如此忠实的受众。而现在，天哪，竞争如此激烈。我感觉自己仿佛刚刚品尝到公共广播公司早期成果的滋味没几年，如今却站在了它的另一端，当那些资金已不复存在。我认为这真的很可悲，真的很不幸。比尔·莫耶斯曾说过，有些人将新闻业与自由主义混为一谈。

Because it's so good and it has such a devoted audience. And now, God, there's so much competition. I feel like I've been just a couple of years away from the early fruits of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, and here I am at the other end of it when there is no more of that funding. And I think it's really sad and really unfortunate. Bill Moyers said that some people confuse journalism with liberalism.

我认为这正是当前情况的一部分原因。一些掌权者，或许包括总统在内，将基于事实的新闻业——

And I think that that's part of what's going on here. That some people with power, including perhaps the president, see journalism that's fact based.

嗯。

Mhmm.

——并认为它是自由派的，因为他们不认同那些事实。

And they think it's liberal because they disagree with the facts.

代表宾夕法尼亚州第十选区的国会议员斯科特·佩里就明确表达了这一点。他说，削减纳税人对NPR和PBS的资助是显而易见的选择。它们是虚假信息和宣传渠道，只发布左派言论。

Congressman Scott Perry, who represents Pennsylvania's Tenth District, says this exact thing. He says, it's a no brainer to slash taxpayer funding of NPR and PBS. They are disinformation and propaganda outlets that only publish leftist talking points.

哦，这完全、事实上、彻头彻尾是不真实的。如果你收听NPR新闻节目，他们会邀请民主党人、共和党人、非常保守的人士，以及各种艺术领域的人。这根本不符合事实。如果邀请不同背景的人——黑人、拉丁裔、酷儿、女权主义者——如果这就是'觉醒'的标志，那么这其实是美国的标志。这不是一种政治立场。

Oh, that's simply, factually, totally untrue. If you listen to the NPR news shows, they have on Democrats, they have on Republicans, they have on very conservative people, they have on arts of all kind. It's just factually not true. And if having on people of different backgrounds, people who are black, Latino, queer, feminist, if that's a sign of wokeness, well, it's a sign of America. It's not a political position.

这代表着展现那些作为人类、生活在我们国家、并做出巨大贡献的真实人群。一旦出柜变得安全，我们就发现那么多备受喜爱的艺术家都是酷儿。当大门向黑人作家、电影制作人和导演敞开时，我们意识到有那么多有才华的电影人之前只是没有获得机会。在音乐领域我们早就知道这一点——黑人音乐一直都有被录制。

It's a sign of representing human beings who are human beings and who live in our country and who have great contributions that they've made. As soon as it was safe to come out, we saw that so many of the artists that everybody loves are queer. And when the doors opened to black writers and filmmakers and directors, we realized there were so many talented filmmakers who just weren't given access. And we knew all we already knew that with music. There was always black music being recorded.

艺术家们未必因此获得合理报酬，他们可能被剥削，但我们仍然有幸听到这些音乐。我这么说不是原谅剥削行为，而是承认这些才华确实得到了认可。所以，做一个艺术节目不可能不包含——你知道斯科特·佩里可能会认为是'觉醒'的元素——仅仅因为邀请了那些恰好是黑人、酷儿、拉丁裔或女权主义的伟大艺术家，这都会反映在他们的作品中，因为人们的生活总是会体现在创作里。

Artists weren't necessarily being paid properly for making it. They may have been exploited, but we still got to hear the music. Right. I don't say that in forgiveness of the exploitation, I just say that in recognition that that talent was recognized. So, it's impossible to do an art show without what's, you know, Scott Perry might think of as being woke just by virtue of having on, you know, great artists who happen to be black or queer or Latino or or feminist, and that's reflected in their work because people's lives are always reflected in their work.

我想很多人都能在作家莫里斯·桑达克的作品中看到自己生活的影子。他多次做客过您的节目。

I think many people saw their lives reflected in the work of writer Maurice Sendak. And he came on your show many many times.

是的。

Yes.

在庆祝《新鲜空气》节目五十周年之际，在这个诞生并持续创造奇迹的地方，我想我们可以播放一段2012年您与他的对话片段。

And in celebrating fifty years of fresh air in the building where it happened, where it continues to happen. I thought we could play a clip from your conversation with him in 2012.

如今我对我的生活唯有赞美。我并非不快乐。我经常哭泣，因为我想念人们；我经常哭泣，因为他们逝去而我无法阻止；他们离开了我，而我却更加爱他们。

I have nothing but praise now, really, for my life. I I I'm not unhappy. I cry a lot because I miss people. I cry a lot because they die and I can't stop them. They leave me and I love them more.

但我这里有我的年轻人，四个正在学习的孩子，他们把我当作无所不知的人。他们只了解我知道的多么有限。但显然我散发出某种让他们信任的特质，因为他们都很聪明。天啊，世界上有那么多美好的事物，我死后都将不得不离开，但我已经准备好了。

But I have my young people here, four of them who are studying and they look at me as somebody who knows everything of four kids. They only knew how little I know. But obviously I give off something that they trust because they're all intelligent. Oh, God. There are so many beautiful things in the world, which I will have to leave when I die, but I'm ready.

我准备好了，我准备好了。听着，我必须告诉你一件事。说吧。你是我接受采访或交谈中唯一能让我敞开心扉的人。

I'm ready. I'm ready. Listen I have to tell you something. Go ahead. You are the only person I have ever dealt with in terms of being interviewed or talking to who brings this out in me.

你身上有种非常独特和特别的东西，让我如此信任。当我听说你要采访我时，以为你是自愿的，我真的非常非常高兴。

There is something very unique and special in you, which I so trust. When I heard that you were going to interview me, thought you wanted to. I was really, really pleased.

嗯，我真的很高兴我们能有机会交谈，因为当我听说你有新书要出版时，我想，这是个多好的借口啊——可以打电话给莫里斯·桑达克聊聊天。是的。

Well, I'm really glad we got the chance to speak because when I heard you had a book coming out, I thought, what a good excuse Well to call up Maurice Sendak and have a chat. Yes.

我们一直不都这样吗？是啊，我们一直如此。

That's what we always do, isn't it? Yeah. It we've always done.

确实如此。

It is.

谢天谢地我们还活着能做这件事。

Thank god we're still around to do it.

是的。

Yes.

而且几乎可以肯定的是，我会比你先走，这样我就不用想念你了。

And almost certainly, I'll go before you go so I won't have to miss you.

哦，天哪。这是什么

Oh god. What is

而且，我不知道我还会不会再写一本书。我可能会，也可能不会，这并不重要。我是个快乐的老头，但我会一路哭着走向坟墓。

And and I don't know whether I'll do another book or not. I might it doesn't matter. I'm a happy old man, but I will cry my way all the way to the grave.

嗯，我很高兴你有新书了。真的很高兴我们能有机会聊聊。

Well, I'm so glad you have a new book. I'm really glad we had a chance to talk.

我也是。

I am too.

祝你一切顺利。

And I wish you all good things.

我祝愿你一切安好。过好你的人生。过好你的人生。过好你的人生。

I wish you all good things. Live your life. Live your life. Live your life.

需要再来一张纸巾。很多时候，我都在脑海里回放这句话：过好你的人生。过好你的人生。过好你的人生。比如，当我陷入负面思维循环时，我就会播放这个。

Need another tissue. Many times, I play it back in my head saying, live your life. Live your life. Live your life. Like, when I get caught up in a negative thought cycle, I just I play that.

自从弗朗西斯去世后，我的情绪一直非常容易波动。

My emotions have been very close to the surface since Frances died.

这样没关系吗？

Is that alright?

是的。我的意思是，它们本该如此——我是说，我本该有很多感受。我们一起生活了四十七年。这很正常。

Yeah. I mean, they should be I mean, I should be feeling a lot. We lived our lives together for forty seven years. It's okay.

你为什么对我说这些？

Why are saying that to me?

因为我觉得，也许你对我流泪感到不自在。

Because I feel like maybe you're uncomfortable that I'm tearing up.

哦，不。不。我只是在占据这个空间。

Oh, no. No. I'm just holding the space.

是的。我也想向你保证我没事。

Yeah. I also want to reassure you that I'm okay.

你不需要向我保证任何事情。

You don't have to reassure me anything.

这不是，这不是那么回事。

That's not what that's not what this is.

好吧。

Okay.

你呢？

Are you?

是的。我我我真的没事。我知道伤口还在。有一种缺失感。但但我真的还好。

Yeah. I I I really am. I know there's still a wound. There's an absence. But but I'm okay.

我有自己的生活。我有朋友。我有非常珍视的工作。我有每天在工作中见到的、我深深关心的人们。我喜欢见到他们。

I have a life. I have friends. I have work that I really treasure. I have people who I see every day at work who I really care deeply about. I enjoy seeing them.

我喜欢和他们在一起。我喜欢围绕共同目标建立的关系。而我拥有这些。我以非常深刻的方式拥有这些。

I enjoy being in their company. I enjoy relationships built around a common purpose. And I I have that. I have that in a very profound way.

现在当你听到那段录音时，它有了新的意义。是的。那是什么意义呢？

When you hear that tape now It has new meaning. Yeah. And what is that?

我觉得我更理解莫里斯当时的处境了，他生病有一段时间了，身体一直在衰退，无法旅行，这就是为什么我们通过电话交谈。知道死亡临近，却仍然，你知道，他仍然在世界上发现美。我很喜欢他这样做。这对我来说非常有意义。我真心希望当我也临近死亡时，如果不是突然来临，比如我知道自己快要死了，我希望音乐和电影或其他什么仍然能给我带来，你知道，快乐、联系和意义。

I feel like I understand more what it's like to be in the position Maurice was in, where he had been sick for a while, he'd been declining, he couldn't travel, which is why we spoke on the phone. And to know death is near and to, you know, just still find, you know, he still found beauty in the world. And I love that he did. That's very meaningful to me. And I really hope that when I'm nearing death, if it doesn't come suddenly, like if I know I'm nearing it, I hope that music and movies or whatever still brings me, you know, pleasure and connection and meaning.

是的。我知道音乐直到最后对弗朗西斯仍然重要。

Yeah. I know music still mattered to Francis at the very end.

当他说，活出你的人生。活出你的人生。活出你的人生。随着我们继续前行，你打算如何度过余下的生命？

When he says, live your life. Live your life. Live your life. As we go, how do you how do you wanna go about living the rest of it?

我现在是过一天算一天。我的意思是，我知道我现在不会退休。

I'm in a day by day right now. I mean, I know I'm not gonna retire now.

给我一个好日子。

Give me a good day.

好日子？是的。好日子，比如，工作中面试顺利的时候。或者只是那种，你知道，我现在这个人生阶段，不再追求那种惊天动地的快乐。你懂我的意思吗？

A good day? Yeah. A good day, like, at work is when an interview goes well. Or just a day when, you know, I'm I'm at the point in my life where I'm not looking for the big exclamatory kind of pleasure. Do you know what I mean?

我不打算进行任何伟大的身体冒险。我从来不是个身体上的冒险家。我一直是个身体上的胆小鬼。

I'm not I'm not planning on any great physical adventures. I was never a physical adventurer. I was always been a physical coward.

我也是。

Me too.

哦，真的吗？

Oh, really?

百分之百。

Oh, a 100%.

而且我不，你知道，我不太爱旅行，有点宅。但对我来说，我只想要内心的平静，就像内心的满足感。这可能只是独自吃晚餐或和朋友共进晚餐。可能是面试时和某人交谈。可能只是和我一起工作的人共事。

And I don't you know, I'm not much of a traveler, kind of a homebody. But to me, I just want inner equanimity, like inner contentment. And that could just be having dinner alone or having dinner with a friend. It could be talking to somebody in an interview. It could be just working with the people I work with.

可能是独自散步，也可能是坐着看电影。你明白我的意思吗？就是要在身心上都感到满足和舒适。但这并不总是发生。

It could be taking a walk by myself. It could be sitting and watching a movie. Do you know what I mean? But just to feel content and comfortable in my own body and in my mind. And that doesn't always happen.

这就是我所追求的。

That's what I seek.

那积极价值和消极思维呢？

And the positive value and negative thinking?

嗯，那个我可以关掉。我很想关掉它。但是，你知道，那些时刻确实会出现。这时候我就会说，我还好，因为我仍然有这样的时刻。

Well, that I can turn off. I'd like to turn that off. But but those times occur, you know. And that's when I say it like, I'm okay because I still have times like that, you know.

你爸爸关于快乐是怎么说的来着？

What did your dad say about pleasure again?

没有人说过生活全是关于快乐的。他说得对，确实不是。但你不应该用训斥的方式说这句话

No one said that life is all about pleasure. And he's right, it isn't. But you shouldn't say that in a scolding way

没错。

Right.

对于一个不完全算是享乐主义者的人来说。你看，如果你观察我和我的生活方式，我一直以来都比较内向。

To somebody who's not exactly a hedonist. You know, if you look at me and look at my, you know, the life I've always led, I've always been, you know, on the introverted side.

勤奋好学。

Studious.

是的，没错。你绝不会觉得，那个女人只在乎享乐，她不工作，不专注。你不会这样评价我。

Yeah. Exactly. You'd never think like, that woman, all she cares about is pleasure, and she doesn't work, she doesn't focus. You you wouldn't be saying that about me.

我的最后一个问题是：五十年来，人们一直在听你的访谈，他们在这本书中读到这些内容。部分原因正如厄普代克所说，通过倾听他人的经历，他们看到了自己生活的映照？经过一万五千次访谈，五十年时光，聆听他人的故事，尝试理解他人，是否帮助你更好地理解了自己？

Here's my last question for you is, for fifty years, people have listened to your interviews. They've read them in this book. And part of what happened is what Updike talked about. That they see their lives reflected back at them by hearing about other people's experiences? Do you feel that after 15,000 interviews, fifty years, that hearing other people's stories, trying to understand other people, has it helped you better understand yourself?

我想是的。在某种程度上，听人们谈论那些我自己难以启齿的事情对我很有帮助。我指的不是犯罪或冒犯性的事，而是那些因为觉得会给自己带来负面评价或尴尬而深藏内心的想法和感受。这让我在自我接纳上更自在，也让我意识到分享故事的价值——甚至包括我自己的故事。

I think so. Yeah. In the sense that it's been helpful to me to hear people talk about things that I would be embarrassed to admit to myself. And I don't mean like criminal offensive things, but just like thoughts and feelings that, you know, I tend to keep to myself because I think it would reflect badly on me or, you know, be embarrassing in some way. And so it's it's helped me feel more comfortable within myself and also helped me feel that there's value in sharing stories, even even maybe mine.

这其中很有价值。

There's a lot of value in it.

我这么说是因为我人生中大部分时间都是一个非常拘谨的受访者，我不仅希望自己隐形，还想保持一种空白的状态。

Well, I say that because I've been a very inhibited interviewee most of my life because I wanted to not only be invisible, but also be bit of a blank slate.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我觉得我从事这行已经足够久了，或许能够更自如地谈论自己。感谢你提出这么好的问题，做一位如此敏锐的采访者。我非常钦佩你的工作，即使我流泪时，和你交谈也感到非常自在。

And I feel like I've been at this long enough that maybe I can say more about myself and say it comfortably. And thank you for asking such good questions and being such a sensitive interviewer. I admire your work a lot and felt very comfortable talking to you even when I was in tears.

你之前说过，为什么没有更多人像我们在NPR做的那种采访？我向你保证，我知道你明白这一点，但我要说出来记录在案：如果没有你，就不会有《TalkEasy》的任何一集节目。

You said back in the day, why don't more people do the kind of interviews that we do at NPR? And I assure you, and I know you know this, but I'll say it so we have it on the record, that there would not be one episode of TalkEasy if it weren't for you.

谢谢你，萨姆。这对我意义重大，因为我非常钦佩你的工作。我觉得你真的很出色。

Thank you, Sam. It means a lot to me. It means a lot to me because I admire your work a lot. I think you're really good.

我是向最好的学习的。塔拉·格罗斯，感谢你付出的所有时间以及其间的一切。

I learned from the best. Tara Gross, thank you for for all the time and everything in between.

谢谢。我能拥抱你一下吗？

Thank you. Can I give you a hug?

可以。以上就是我们本期的节目。如果你喜欢今天的内容，请务必在社交媒体上分享，并标记我们@talkeasypod。本周我要特别感谢Fresh Air和WHYY团队、无与伦比的莫莉·CV·内斯珀、汤姆·格拉斯勒、朱利安·赫茨菲尔德、阿尔·班克斯和蒂娜·卡利凯。

Yes. And that's our show. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to share it on social media. Tag us at talk easy pod. I wanna give a very special thanks this week to the team at Fresh Air and WHYY, the incomparable Molly CV Nesper, Tom Grassler, Julian Hertzfeld, Al Banks, and Tina Callicay.

我还要感谢莎拉·西尔弗曼、海蒂·萨曼，当然还有我们今天的嘉宾泰瑞·格罗斯。您可以在NPR或您现在收听此节目的任何平台收听《新鲜空气》。如果您想观看视频版本，本周晚些时候将在YouTube上线。更多节目推荐，我建议听听艾拉·格拉斯、大卫·雷姆尼克和塞斯·迈耶斯的节目。收听这些及更多Lemonada播客节目，请通过Apple、Spotify或您喜欢的收听平台。

I also wanna thank Sarah Silverman, Heidi Saman, and, of course, our guest today, Terry Gross. You can hear fresh air on NPR or wherever you're listening to this right now. If you wanna watch this on video, it will be up later this week on YouTube. For more episodes, I'd recommend Ira Glass, David Remnick, and Seth Meyers. To hear those and more Lemonada podcasts, listen on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen.

您还可以订阅Lemonada高级版，获取独家附加内容和无广告收听体验。只需在Apple上点击订阅按钮或访问lemononapremium.com。《轻松对话》由卡罗琳·锐步制作，执行制作人是贾尼莎·布拉沃。本期对话由马特·佐佐木和尼克·扎恩编辑。

You can also subscribe to Lemonada Premium for exclusive bonus content and ad free listening. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple or head to lemononapremium.com. Talk easy is produced by Caroline Reebok. Our executive producer is Janixa Bravo. Today's talk was edited by Matt Sasaki and Nick Zahn.

音频混音由安德鲁·瓦斯托拉完成。音乐由迪伦·佩克创作。插画出自克里莎·沙纳希之手。本期照片由莎拉·施耐德提供，研究协助来自本·艾森和科里·埃塔布。本集节目与Lemonada Media的优秀团队合作制作，我是山姆·弗拉戈索。

It was mixed by Andrew Vastola. Our music is by Dylan Peck. Our illustrations are by Krisha Shanahi. Photographs today come from Sarah Schneider with research assistance from Ben Eisen and Corey Etab. This episode was made in partnership with the good people at Lemonada Media, and I'm Sam Fragoso.

感谢收听本期特别版的《轻松对话》。周日我将带着全新节目回到这里。在此期间，请注意安全，再会。

Thank you for listening to this very special episode of talk easy. I'll see you back here on Sunday with a brand new one. Until then, stay safe and so long.

在NPR的《Throughline》播客中，移民执法现在可能更加显眼，但这一时刻并非始于特朗普总统的第二次就职典礼，甚至不是他的第一次。《Throughline》系列节目讲述移民如何变得政治化并成为摇钱树的故事。请在NPR应用程序或您获取播客的任何平台收听《Throughline》。

On the Throughline podcast from NPR, immigration enforcement might be more visible now, but this moment didn't begin with president Trump's second inauguration or even his first. A series from Throughline about how immigration became political and a cash cow. Listen to Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

在《如何做所有事》节目中，我们接收您的问题并寻找杰出的专家来解答。因为我们爱您。伊丽莎白问我们：

On how to do everything, we take your questions and find phenomenal experts to answer them. Because we love you. Elizabeth asked us,

我该如何

how do I

我在车里的时候可以锻炼吗？

exercise while I'm in my car?

因为我们都很喜欢伊丽莎白，所以我们联系了我们最喜欢的从健美运动员转型为演员，再转型为州长，又回归演员的阿诺德。你好，阿诺德。你好。我们今天代表NPR与你交谈。非常荣幸。

And because we love Elizabeth, we rang up our favorite bodybuilder turned actor turned governor turned actor. Hello, Arnold. Hello. We're here to talk to you today from NPR. Very nice.

第二季刚刚上线。请收听NPR的《如何做一切》。

Season two just dropped. Listen to How To Do Everything from NPR.