迈克尔与杰西卡·库利亚诺斯 | 女孩研读圣经

哇。

Wow.

主对我们一直如此信实。

So the Lord's been so faithful to us.

是的。

Yeah.

这真是一个不可思议的故事。

What an insane story.

所有的交叉关联。

All the crossover.

所有的联系。

All the connection.

是的。

Yeah.

然后，迈克尔牧师，你已经跟我们分享了一点你的故事。

And then so pastor Michael, you are you've given us a little bit of your story.

那么，你从青少年到成年的其余经历是怎样的？

And then so what does the rest of your teens into adulthood look like?

哦，天哪。

Oh, jeez.

我16岁的时候就开始在一个小圣经学习小组讲道了。

I started preaching at 16 in a little bible study.

那是我父母带我去牧师本尼那里之后的事了，天哪，整整四年。

I was this was after my parents took me to pastor Benny's, gosh, for four years.

那时候，我是高中三年级学生，我的背景是高尔夫球。

By this time, I'm a junior in high school, and my background is golf.

所以我当时正被一些全美顶尖的学校招募打球。

So I was being recruited to play for, you know, the best schools in the country.

但我感受到主呼召我去ORU，而我并不想去那里。

And I felt the Lord actually call me to ORU, but I didn't wanna go there.

因为他们的高尔夫球水平并不怎么样。

Just they weren't very good at golf.

嗯。

Yeah.

哎呀。

Aw.

我就去了那儿。

That's where I went.

所以是的。

So yeah.

这就是男女之间的区别。

And there's the difference between men and women.

就在这里？

Right there?

嗯。

Yeah.

哎呀。

Aw.

嗯。

Yeah.

他们没有。

They weren't.

他们就是没有。

They just weren't.

嗯。

Yeah.

那里很冷。

And it was cold there.

记得我是在十一月去塔尔萨进行招生访问的。

Remember my recruiting visit was November in Tulsa.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我一直想在佛罗里达大学盖恩斯维尔分校为盖尔队打球。

And I'd always wanted to play for the Gators in Gainesville here at University of Florida.

但我知道主在呼召我去塔尔萨，去ORU。

But I knew the Lord was calling me to to Tulsa, to ORU.

我就是做不到。

I just couldn't do it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

从属灵的角度来看，那是错误的决定。

And it was the wrong call, spiritually.

我感激在佛罗里达大学学到的一切，但我认为上帝完美的计划是我应该去ORU。

I'm grateful for all I learned at UF, but I think God's perfect plan was that I'd gone to ORU.

我可以打断一下吗？

Do you Can I interrupt?

嗯。

Yeah.

请说。

Please.

所以你是说，你觉得你某种程度上错过了，嗯。

So are you saying that you feel like you kind of missed Yeah.

上帝的真的是？

God's really?

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

因为有很多说法认为，你永远不可能错过上帝为你预备的一切。

Because there's a lot of messaging that like you can never miss what God has for you.

那你怎么看这个观点？

And like, what what do you think about that?

我在圣经里根本看不到这种说法。

I don't see that in the Bible at all.

嗯。

Yeah.

我的意思是，从伊甸园的故事来看，人们确实会错过。

I mean, there I mean, from the story of Eden, people miss it.

对。

Right.

嗯。

Mhmm.

该隐肯定错过了。

Cain certainly missed it.

对。

Right.

以色列的诸王也肯定错过了。

The kings of Israel certainly missed it.

大卫也错过了。

David missed it.

上帝是仁慈的。

God was merciful.

但每当你剥夺了错过的能力——即自由选择，你就剥夺了爱的能力。

But anytime you remove the ability to miss it, free choice, you remove the ability to love.

是的。

Yeah.

哇。

So Wow.

但主会扭转局面。

But the Lord will turn it around.

如果你顺服，祂就能；但你也可以一生都错过。

He can if you yield or you can just miss it your whole life.

自由意志非常、非常强大。

The free will is very, very powerful.

嗯。

Mhmm.

上帝追求的是我们的意志。

God is after our will.

这是灵魂的种子。

It's the seed of the soul.

这是灵魂的靶心。

It's the bull's eye of the soul.

在正统传统中，我们称这个过程为神化。

In the orthodox tradition, we call this the process of theosis.

换句话说，东方思想认为，我成为我，经历与上帝的联合，并借着他的大能将我塑造为他的形象。

In other words, the eastern thought is me becoming me experiencing union with God and by his power forming me into his image.

最终，灵魂得更新，心思也得更新，我们称之为成圣。

So eventually, the soul is renewed and the mind is renewed and we call this sanctification.

但你当然可以抗拒这一切。

But certainly, you can resist all that.

我确实去了佛罗里达大学，但在去之前就已经背离了信仰，因为我感觉自己一直在反抗，嗯。

And I did and went to the University of Florida, backslid backslid actually prior to going because I I just felt like I was in rebellion Mhmm.

那是在我高中后期。

Towards the end of my high school years.

那可不是个好状态。

And that's not a great place to be.

于是我去了那里上学。

And so I went to school there.

整整一年没碰过圣经，后来成了职业运动员，最终打了职业比赛，但多次受伤，之后就开始当教练。

Went like a year without ever picking up a bible and turned professional, eventually played professionally, got injured a bunch, and then I started coaching.

然后我和杰西卡重新取得了联系。

And then that's when Jessica and I reconnected.

嗯，她当时才九岁，所以我说，我不知道我们

Well, she you was nine, so I mean, I don't know how

有多亲密。

connected we were.

我们当时并不认识，他去的时候 yeah。

We didn't like know each other when he went Yeah.

去 那个

To That

那会是 yeah。

would be Yeah.

但我的姑姑，如今已与主同在，非常不可思议。

But my amazingly, my aunt who's with the Lord now.

这是真的。

This is true.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Mhmm.

在我们受圣灵洗之前，你知道，我们在教会里没有联系。

Before we were baptized in the spirit, you know, we didn't have connections at the church.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我们坐在后面。

So we'd sit in the back.

那时候得排队，这和现在很相似，真是不可思议。

Like, you had to line up back then, which is wild similar to now.

嗯。

Yeah.

所以我们总是拿到楼座的座位。

And so we would get like balcony seats.

我们坐在后面。

We'd sit in the back.

当我12岁的时候，我阿姨指着杰丝说，那就是你未来的妻子。

And my aunt said pointed at Jess when I was 12, she said, that's your wife.

你有一天会娶她的。

You'll marry her one day.

这简直难以置信。

It's unbelievable.

我当时想，不可能。

And I was like, no way.

她就说，没错。

She's like, yep.

那就是你老婆。

That's your wife.

我那时候有连心眉，还穿着乔丹球衣。

I had a unibrow and a Jordan jersey.

对，她也有连心眉。

Yeah, she had a unibrow.

对。

Yeah.

你

Do you

你总是提起她的连眉。

wanna have You always bring up her unibrow.

总是这样。

Always does.

所以我才替你说出来，因为我想着

That's why I said it for you because I

我知道，我知道要来了。

knew it I knew it was coming.

我在教会里讲授合一的教义，我觉得她的连眉

I've been teaching on unity at the church, and I think her unibrow

也是一样的。

was the same.

这

The

二人成为一体。

two becoming one.

是的。

Yeah.

天啊。

Oh my god.

所以她是个中东女孩，还没开始打理眉毛。

So she was a Middle Eastern girl who hadn't discovered grooming.

所以。

So

我当时八岁。

I was eight.

对，是的。

Just Yeah.

我当时八岁。

I was eight.

只是。

Just

天啊。

Man.

正义。

Justice.

我们说到哪儿了？

Where were we?

嗯。

Yeah.

Thea RG说，‘哦，’

How Thea RG said Oh,

她这么说的。

she said that.

然后嗯。

And then yeah.

所以后来我快进了一下，我上了大学，又退步了。

So then I fast forward, I I go to college, backslide.

然后在2003年，我哥哥开始和她表妹约会

And then in o three, my brother started dating her cousin

是啊。

That's yeah.

这挺酷的

That's a cool

在ORU。

at ORU.

所以杰斯实际上

So Jess actually

所以已经走了。

So had gone.

是啊。

Yeah.

这正是有趣的地方。

That's the cool thing.

我离开ORU之后又回去了，因为上帝给了我一个关于我表妹的梦。

After I had left ORU, I went back because I God gave me a dream for my cousin.

所以我回去告诉她我做的梦。

And so I went back to tell her a dream I had.

我遇到了他哥哥，他当时要去ORU。

And I met his brother who was going to ORU.

再次说明，我以前在那里时从未见过他。

After again, I never met him when I was there.

我恰好在回去看望表妹时遇见了他。

I happened to just meet him going back to to see my cousin.

我一看到他哥哥，主就告诉我：‘那就是拉切尔的丈夫。’

And, as soon as I saw his brother, the Lord was like, that's Rachel's husband.

所以我参与了介绍我表妹和他哥哥认识。

So I played a part in introducing them, my cousin and his brother.

当我见到他哥哥时，他说：‘天哪，我们去过你爸爸的教会。’

And then when I met his brother, he was like, oh my gosh, we went to your dad's church.

我们小时候就去你爸爸的教会。

Like, we grew up going to your daddy's church.

我当时就说，好吧，不错。

And I was like, okay, cool.

他跟我说，你一定要见见我弟弟。

And he was like, you've got to meet my brother.

这就是主如何把我们带回来的，哇。

And that's how the Lord brought us back Wow.

在一起。

Together.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

然后在2003年，我住在拉斯维加斯

And then in o three, was living in Vegas

嗯。

Mhmm.

还有盖恩斯维尔在中间。

And Gainesville between the two.

对啊。

And yeah.

所以我出来了。

So I came out.

我哥哥说，你得去见见她。

My brother's like, you need to come visit her.

我就去了。

And I did.

我看过她的照片。

I'd seen a picture of her.

哇哦。

Was like, woah.

连眉。

The unibrow.

对。

Yeah.

更多乔丹球衣。

More Jordan jersey.

于是我飞到了橙县。

And so I flew to Orange County.

当时他们住在达纳点。

They were living in Dana Point at the time.

当她开门时，主说，那就是你的妻子。

And when she opened the door, the Lord said, that's your wife.

停。

Stop.

对。

Yeah.

就这样了。

That was that.

然后她爸爸给了我一份工作，我放下了所有的一切。

And then her dad offered me a job, and I left everything.

然后我们搬了家，我把整个生活都搬到了橙县

And then we moved our whole I moved my whole life to Orange

县。

County.

哇。

Wow.

哇。

Wow.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这完全跑题了，但我很好奇，因为我在教会长大，嗯。

This is completely off topic, but I am curious because growing up in church Mhmm.

在这个世界上经历了一段时间后，你们走到了一起。

Being in the world for a little bit, you guys come together.

你们各自都有过自己的生活和过去。

You both had a life and a past.

我想知道，当你们走到一起时，主是否需要在你们当时的身份和过去的自己之间进行和好的工作？

I'm wondering when you guys came together, was there did the Lord have to do a work of reconciliation, between, you know, who you guys were at that moment, who you were in your past?

是否有一些羞耻感需要被处理？

Was there shame that had to be dealt with?

好问题。

Good question.

这真是个很好的问题。

It's a really good question.

对我来说，当我遇到迈克尔的时候，我正处在那个过程中。

For me, I was kind of going through that process right when I met Michael.

而且要非常坦诚真实。

And to just be really raw and honest.

我记得，当我还在世俗中时，我总是对自己说一些话。

I remember, you know, I would always say things to myself when I was in the world.

比如，我从不希望自己成为那种基督徒，嗯。

Like, I never wanna be one of those Christians Mhmm.

那种不去俱乐部、不做这件事的人。

That won't go to a club or won't do this.

你知道，我当时有点像，你知道的那种，哦，是的。

And, you know, I was kind of like, you know how you try to, like Oh, yeah.

试图说服自己或许可以活在一种混合状态中

Talk yourself into maybe living in mixture a

一点点。

little bit.

嗯。

Yeah.

所以当我遇到迈克尔时，因为我们都是从世俗中走出来的，我们相遇了，我想第一次是在橙县，但后来约会期间，他夏天在拉斯维加斯工作。

And so when I met Michael, because we were both coming out of the world, and we met, I think the first time was in Orange County, but then like he was working in the summers in Vegas when we were dating.

所以我去看他时，记得我说过，我们去俱乐部吧，或者类似的地方。

So I would go visit him, and I remember I said, let's go to the club or something like that.

我当时想，我们知道我们在寻找上帝，但还是可以去俱乐部。

I was like, we know we're we're finding God, but we can still go to the club.

嗯。

Yeah.

他说，我永远不会忘记这一点。

He said, I'll never forget it.

他说，我觉得那些日子对我们来说已经结束了。

He said, I think those days are done for us.

我问：‘你什么意思？’

I was like, what do you mean?

他说，我觉得那些日子对我们来说已经结束了。

He's like, I think those days are done for us.

我们要么就专心追求上帝，要么就不。

We either need to be going after God or not.

哇。

Wow.

他说，我全心全意地相信，你就是我的妻子，我不想搞砸这一切。

And he goes, and I believe with all my heart, you're my wife, and I don't wanna mess this up.

因为我们俩都有过去，所以我们必须设立非常明确的界限，以免失足或做不该做的事。

And because we both did have a past, we had to put really clear boundaries in place so that we didn't slip up or do something we shouldn't do.

完全正确。

Totally.

因为我们根本不想破坏主正在成就的事。

Because we just did not wanna mess up what the Lord was doing.

我们知道这是件好事，所以我们确实有过那样的时刻，意识到我们本来就是非此即彼的人。

We knew this was a good thing, and so we did have that moment of just kind of going like, we're kinda all or nothing people anyway.

但那是最好的决定，我毫无悔恨。

But it was the best decision, and I had no regrets.

我们就想，好吧，我们不再为世界服务了。

It was like, okay, we're done serving the world.

现在我们要侍奉主。

Now we're gonna serve the Lord.

所以我们就在那一刻，彻底放下了这一切。

And so we kinda just had that moment, and wiped our hands clean of it.

我很感恩，主赐给我一个敬畏神的男人，他有勇气对我这样说。

And I was thankful that the Lord sent me a Godly man that had strength to actually say that to me.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这很有帮助，因为如果他没有这样明确地摆明立场，说‘不，我们要追求主，不再玩任何游戏’，我可能会妥协。

And that was helpful, because maybe I would have compromised if he didn't like, lay it down like that and say, no, we're going after the Lord, no more playing games.

是的。

Yeah.

我们很快就做出了这个决定。

And we just quickly made that decision.

哇。

Wow.

太棒了。

That's amazing.

嗯。

Yeah.

我觉得这完全是神的旨意。

I I felt like it was so much God's will.

我感受到他身上有对神的敬畏。

I felt the fear of the Lord around him.

嗯。

Mhmm.

确实如此。

So That's true.

哇。

Wow.

当然，我爱她。

Of course, I loved her.

我尊重她的父亲，以及他对我的影响。

I honored her dad, his impact on my life.

但我也很清楚，我可能会毁掉一切，没错。

But I also was very aware of the fact that I could blow up Yeah.

上帝所计划的一切。

What God had planned.

这真的让我很害怕。

And that really freaked me out.

哇。

Wow.

上帝的讯息如此清晰，周围充满了真正的、深深的敬畏。

And God's messaging was so clear that there was a real, real awe of God around it.

我记得有一天晚上，我们正在看电影，我们总是把她的卧室门开着。

Like I remember her dad one night, we were watching a movie, and we always left her bedroom door open.

他走进来时，我躺在地板上，她躺在床上。

And he walks in, I'm on the floor and she's on her bed.

他问我：‘你为什么躺在地板上看电影？’

And he's like, why are you laying on the floor watching a movie?

那感觉就像是我在提醒自己：我不能走那条路。

That was like the level of like, I'm not going here.

她的祖母和我的祖母以前常说：汽油和火是不会相容的——这是个古老的希腊和中东谚语，嗯。

Her grandmother and my grandmother used to say, gasoline and fire don't And it's an old like Greek Middle Eastern saying like Mhmm.

她会说：男人有火，女人有汽油。

She'd say the man has the fire and the woman has the gasoline.

这两者不能混在一起。

The two don't mix.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯。

Mhmm.

确实如此。

That's true.

靠着上帝的恩典，我们从未涉足那里。

By God's grace, we just we never went there.

我们从未去过那里。

We just never went there.

是的。

And Yeah.

而且我们认识很多去过的人。

And and we know a lot of people who did.

嗯。

Mhmm.

不幸的是，这并不是上帝不能赦免，而是我们的经验表明，这影响了他们的轨迹。

And unfortunately, it's not that God can't forgive, but our experience has been it affected their trajectory

哇。

Wow.

因为起源太重要了。

Because origin is so important.

事物的起源决定了它的走向。

Like the origin of something determines its trajectory.

是的。

Yeah.

它决定了很多事情。

It determines so much.

哇。

Wow.

我们所参与的任何事物，其根基都至关重要。

So the root system of anything that we're involved with is massive.

嗯。

Mhmm.

在过去二十一年里，我亲眼见证了其中的差异，是的。

And I've just seen the difference over the last twenty one years now Yeah.

关于婚姻，那些差不多时间结婚的人，确实如此。

Of marriage, like people who got married around the same time True.

也许他们没有那些界限，对纯洁有着不同的看法，结果已经摆在眼前了，嗯。

Who maybe didn't have those boundaries, maybe had a different viewpoint on purity, the the proof's been in the pudding Mhmm.

在他们的生活中。

In their lives.

嗯。

Yeah.

而纯洁并不会从天而降。

And purity, it doesn't fall in your lap.

你需要

You need to

付出代价。

pay

为它付出代价。

for it.

嗯。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

嗯。

Yeah.

它伴随着嗯。

It comes with with Yeah.

伴随着基于圣经的深思熟虑的决定。

With the with like very thought out decisions based on scripture.

我觉得我们订婚十八个月后才结婚。

And I think we were engaged like eighteen months before we got married.

那真是很长很长

That was a long long

订婚时间。

time to engage.

因为那时我经常不在家。

Well, because I was gone so much.

我是她爸爸的妹妹。

I was her dad's sister.

有太多事要做。

Was so much to do.

嗯，我跟每个人聊过，他们都说订婚时间要短一点，嗯。

Well, everybody that I talked to is always like have a short engagement Mhmm.

恋爱时间长一点，订婚时间短一点，因为

Longer dating, short engagement because

搞定。

get it.

订婚久了，关系就会变得奇怪。

It gets the lines get weird when you're engaged.

就好像我们是不是已经结婚了？

It's just like are we married?

就是啊。

It just Yeah.

变得越来越难。

Gets harder.

这太棒了。

So that is amazing.

我们确实如此。

We do.

我觉得我们的文化帮了忙。

I think our culture helped.

我的意思是，你娶的是一整个家庭。

Mean, we had like, you married a family.

天啊

Oh my

家庭，没错。

family, yes.

我知道。

I know.

我是说，我有我妻子那边的希腊家人。

Like, I had my Greek family, her side.

是啊。

Yeah.

这很有趣。

It was fun.

我的意思是，如果我们搞砸了，我们可能会被暗杀。

I mean, I think we would have been assassinated had we messed it up.

天哪。

Oh my god.

有很多人支持我们、批评我们，我们也在不断纠正。

Like, were a lot of people cheering us on, rebuking us, We correcting

对人们非常负责，确实是这样。

very accountable to people That's so, yeah.

我经常对耶稣学院里那些年轻、正在约会的学生们说这一点。

And like, I always say this to our students a lot who are, you know, young and dating and stuff at Jesus School.

我觉得，我现在信任迈克尔的原因是他一直在外面奔波。

I'm like, listen, the reason I trust Michael now, because he's on the road.

他一直都在外面奔波。

He's always been on the road.

他在成为牧师之前就是一个传教士。

He was an evangelist before he was a pastor.

我想到他结婚前能克制自己不碰我，这让我现在更信任他，哇。

I was like, the fact that he had self control not to touch me before our wedding makes me trust him now Wow.

对其他女性。

With other women.

他能控制自己的欲望，正如圣经教导我们的，这种自制力让我作为妻子感到安心，更了解他是怎样的人。

He the fact that he could have control of his members, like the Bible teaches us, you know, like that he had self control makes me as a wife feel better knowing who he is.

所以我总是告诉年轻人，你们的整个婚姻都会如此。

So that I always tell young people like, you're gonna have your whole marriage.

是的。

Like Yes.

你可别搞砸了。

You don't don't screw it up.

只要真正信靠主，并设立健康的界限。

Just just really trust the Lord and put healthy boundaries in place.

界限可能会变得奇怪，但在那种情况下，健康的界限是必要的。

Boundaries can get weird, but healthy boundaries are needed in those circumstances.

当然。

Absolutely.

所以，如果你有，比如，就坦白出来。

So And if you have, like, confess it.

对。

Yeah.

做一些补偿。

Give some Make restitution.

对。

Yeah.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对主和他人负责。

Be accountable to the Lord and people.

嗯。

Yeah.

而且，别让罪的羞耻阻碍你茁壮成长， Absolutely。

And, you know, don't let the shame of sin keep you from flourishing in the Absolutely.

但与此同时，这种想法绝不能成为

But at the same that thought process should never be permission to

嗯。

Yeah.

故意伤害上帝之心的借口。

To, willfully break the heart of God.

当然。

Absolutely.

所以，是的。

So, yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

哇。

Wow.

谢谢你们。

Thank you guys.

谢谢你们在本集一开始就谈到这一点。

Thank you for speaking on that at the very beginning of this episode.

这是我们最喜欢谈论的话题，但也很让人沮丧。

It's our favorite thing to talk It's frustrating.

因为说实话，我们两个女孩根本无法想象真正的生活。

Because honestly, we're two girls who literally couldn't have even fathomed what a life of genuine Wow.

真正的纯洁和追求圣洁意味着什么。

Authentic purity and a pursuit of holiness could mean.

就像，你活在世上，却跟随耶稣，我相信我们有很多观众仍然过着混杂、随意的基督教生活，或者只是文化上的基督教，对信仰如此随意，且盲目无知。

Like, you're in the world and you're following Jesus, and we have so many people, I'm sure, who watch who are still living a life of mixture and casual Christianity and just like kind of or a cultural Christianity and just being so casual about their faith and blind.

就像，一直在跟随，跟随。

Like, was following following.

我那时遇见耶稣，爱耶稣，每天实实在在地遇见圣灵，圣经在我面前活过来，但与此同时我却在犯罪。

I was encountering Jesus, loving Jesus, literally meeting the Holy Spirit every single day, like the scriptures coming to life before me and then sinning at the same time.

因为罪的捆绑，那种辖制，罪会使人盲目，扭曲一切。

Because the bondage of sin, like, the stronghold, that sin, like, it blinds It perverts everything.

尤其是当你生活中有性方面的罪时，你就什么都看不清楚了。

And, like, when you have especially sexual sin in your life, you can't see anything clearly.

是的。

Yeah.

你看不清。

You can't see.

你甚至看不到自己所做的是错的。

You can't even see that what you're doing is wrong.

你甚至感受不到内心的责备。

You can't even feel the conviction.

谢谢你们谈论这个话题，是的。

So thank you guys for talking about Yeah.

当然。

Of course.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，邀请你们各位以及我们的听众、观众，非常重要的一点是，我们要教导人们如何寻求耶稣，如何看见耶稣的面容，如何操练属灵的恩赐。

I think what's really important for having you guys on and our listeners, our audiences, we wanna teach people how to seek Jesus, how to see the face of Jesus, to operate in the gifts.

这些话题涉及很多方面，但首先我们可以从如何真诚地寻求耶稣开始。

This is a lot of different topics, but first we can start with just how to genuinely seek Jesus.

想开始吗？

Wanna go?

你请说。

Go ahead.

哦，我吗？

Oh, me?

好的。

Okay.

嗯。

Yeah.

意识到他如此亲近、如此临在，愿意把所有时间都献给他，我首先要说，我为此挣扎了很多很多年。

Just being aware that he's so available, he's so near, he's so present, giving him all of your time, I'll be the first to say, I struggled with this for many, many years.

当我放下生命中所有其他欲望，只专注于寻求他时，我才意识到我多么需要他。

And finally, when I got rid of all the other desires in my life and just started going after him, I didn't realize how deeply I needed him.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他始终信实。

And he was so faithful.

这就是耶稣的特别之处。

And that's the thing about Jesus.

他如此仁慈。

He's so merciful.

当你逃离他，然后又决定跑回来时，他不会谴责你，也不会让你觉得自己不如人。

Like, when you run from him and then you decide to run back, he doesn't condemn you and make you feel less than.

他是一位充满爱的父亲，就像任何一位好父母在孩子回家时那样。

He's such a loving father like any good parent, you know, would be if their child comes home.

即使他们正在跟随他，但偶尔走错了方向，然后又回头，他也是如此。

Or even if they're following him, but they they go the wrong direction for a moment and go back.

在我经历的所有起起落落中，他都对我如此仁慈。

He was so merciful to me through all the ups and downs.

这样的例子太多了。

And there's so many.

而且他的爱毫无条件。

And love so, without conditions.

而人们，我们爱是有条件的。

And people, we love with conditions.

我们不知道该如何无条件地爱，但主真的以无条件的爱爱着我们。

We don't know how not to, but the Lord really loves us with an unconditional love.

因此，与耶稣有这样的团契，对我个人而言，我知道当我没有花时间与他同在时，嗯。

And so having this kind of fellowship with Jesus, and for me, personally knowing that when I don't spend time with him Mhmm.

即使今天，就像现在，杰西卡就是她最糟糕的样子。

Even today, like even now, Jessica now, is the worst version of herself.

对。

Right.

我每天都需要他。

And I need him every day.

我不知道。

I don't know.

如果没有跟随耶稣，我甚至无法成为一个好妻子、好母亲、好领袖，任何这些我都做不到。

I I can't even be a good wife, a good mom, a good leader, any of that without following Jesus.

所以，就是要让自己敞开心扉，明白祂是多么亲近。

So it's just making yourself available and knowing how near he is.

我喜欢迈克尔总是说，你可以拥有你想要的祂的全部。

And I love how Michael always says, he's like, you can have as much of him as you want.

嗯。

Mhmm.

祂是如此随时可得。

Like, he's so available.

所以这对我来说很关键，我认为是亲密关系。

So that's key for me, and I think intimacy.

我们是与基督结婚的。

Like, we're married to Christ.

没错。

True.

这是一种真正的婚恋之爱，而不是那种毫无深度的肤浅关系。

So it's true bridal love, and it's not like this little relationship that has no depth.

这是我们一生中最深刻的关系。

It's the deepest relationship we'll ever have in our life.

所以以这种方式与他同行，就像我现在跟你说话一样跟他交谈。

So walking with him that way, and just talking to him like I'm talking to you.

我很简单直接。

Like, I'm pretty simple.

我不把与主的关系搞得复杂。

I don't complicate my walk with the Lord.

无论我日子好过还是难过，无论我感到软弱还是刚强，我都会跟他说话。

I just talk to him when I have good days, bad days, when I feel weak, when I feel strong.

我其实挺喜欢自己的。

I actually like myself.

这听起来可能很疯狂，但我有时在软弱时比在刚强时更喜欢自己。

This sounds crazy, but I I like myself more sometime in weakness than when I feel

嗯。

Mhmm.

更强大。

Stronger.

是的。

Yeah.

因为我感觉我更加依赖他。

Because I feel like I'm more dependent upon him.

这让我保持孩童般的纯真和谦卑。

And that keeps me childlike and grounded.

所以让他成为我一切。

So just making him everything.

他在我们的生命中是一切。

He's everything in our life.

说实话，我现在不知道如何在没有耶稣作为中心的情况下过好生活的任何一部分。

Like, I don't know how to do any part of my life now without Jesus being the center of it.

哇。

Wow.

我希望他永远保持这样，因为我

And I hope he always stays it because I

没有它，我不信任自己。

don't trust myself without it.

绝对不信任。

Absolutely not.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我想，一些基本的方面，比如每天祷告，可能值得提及。

I'd say, I mean, some of the basics, think, would be important maybe to mention would be prayers to be daily.

是的。

Yes.

我们要为每日的粮食祈求。

We're to ask for daily bread.

他的同在就是生命。

His presence is life.

所以我认为，其中一个关键的启示——这是来自主的启示——就是耶稣的同在和话语关乎生死。

So I think probably one of the key revelations, and it is a revelation from the Lord, is the presence and the word of Jesus is a matter of life and death.

是的。

Yes.

所以耶稣在旷野中说，人活着不是单靠食物，而是靠神口里所出的一切话。

So Jesus said in the wilderness, man does not live by bread alone, right, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

所以那里的上下文关乎生存与否。

So the context there is survival or not.

对吧？

Right?

就像你靠它活着，如果没有它，你就会死。

Like you live by it or if you don't have it, you die.

因此，这催生了极大的依赖。

So this births a massive dependency.

我需要主，我每天都需要祂。

I need the Lord and I need Him every day.

我认为这几乎是基本的观念。

I would say that's like elementary thought.

我需要祂的频率远不止每天一次。

I need Him way more often than daily.

每天一次是不够的。

Daily isn't enough.

我需要祂时刻不离。

I need Him continually.

保罗描述了这样的标准，邀请我们一生追求主。

Paul describes such a standard that it invites us into a lifelong pursuit of the Lord.

他说他不断为教会祷告，并命令教会要不住地祷告。

He says that he prays for his church always and he commands the church to pray unceasingly.

因此，呼召实际上是不住的祷告，持续的祷告。

So the call is actually unceasing prayer, continual prayer.

如果这就是呼召，我相信它超越了我们在宣教立场上所承诺的任何事，更重要、更核心；如果我能实现持续的祷告，我就不会再担心体育场、竞技场，或我被呼召去做的任何事，或是否忠于耶稣的形象。

And if that's the call, which I believe transcends and is more pivotal than what we commit to from a missional standpoint, if I can achieve continual prayer, I'm not going to to worry about stadiums or arenas or whatever I'm called to or being faithful to Jesus' image.

如果我能持续地领受并与神互动，这就是持续的祷告，其他一切都会随之而来。

If I find the continual reception and interaction with God that is continual prayer, everything else is a byproduct.

一切。

Everything.

其他所有事。

Everything else.

我的婚姻是一种副产品。

My marriage is a byproduct.

我养育孩子也是一种副产品。

Me raising my kids is a byproduct.

你刚才提到了我的孩子，对吧？

So you mentioned my kids earlier, right?

他们非常棒。

And they are wonderful.

简直太棒了，我

Insanely amazing I

我喜欢和孩子们待在一起。

love hanging out with my children.

他们属灵，充满热情，深入研读圣经。

And they're godly, they're on fire, they're deep in the scriptures.

嗯。

Mhmm.

本尼在服事，西奥在服事，索菲亚正在为她的朋友们发起圣经学习。

Benny's ministering, Theo's ministering, Sofia's starting a bible study for her friends.

她在我们的环境中带领敬拜，我不知道。

She's led worship at in our environment with I don't know.

80个人的声音，她背后开始带领，第一次带领是12人吗？

80 voices She behind started leading, what, 12 was her first set she led?

我觉得是12人。

I think 12.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Mhmm.

难以置信。

Unbelievable.

太棒了。

Incredible.

对吧？

Right?

然后Theo在做医学博士。

And then Theo's MD ing.

他有时会带领团队。

He's leading the team at times.

他会弹键盘。

He plays keys.

他写音乐。

He writes music.

他是，嗯。

He's Yeah.

本尼在神学和讲道方面非常深入。

Strong in the Benny's going so deep in theology and preaching.

他刚刚在耶稣学校讲道了。

He just preached at Jesus School.

所有这些都源于上帝的同在。

So all of that is a byproduct of the presence of God.

是的。

Yeah.

现在，三个人中有两个是在我祷告室门外信主的。

Now two of the three received the Lord a foot outside my prayer room.

因为我会走出来，当他们还小的时候，他们会问：爸爸，里面在发生什么？

Because I'd walk out and when we were little, when they were little, and they'd say, Babab, what's going on in there?

爸爸，在希腊语中是‘父’的意思。

Babab, so you say, Father in Greek.

爸爸，里面在发生什么？

Babab, what's going on there?

我说：我在和主在一起。

And I said, I'm with the Lord.

他们说：嗯，我们能感觉到。

And they said, well, we we can feel that.

我们怎样才能认识主呢？

How can we get to know the Lord?

我说：你们现在就可以认识他。

And I said, well, you can get to know him right now.

于是我跪下来，和我的儿子们一起。

So I got on my knees with my boys.

我站在我家祷告室门外一英尺的地方，带领他们归向主。

I'm talking a foot outside my prayer room in my house, and I got to lead them to the Lord.

主自己才是最伟大的布道者。

The Lord Himself is the greatest evangelist.

我们并不是伟大的布道者。

We're not these great evangelists.

我们软弱，却因祂的恩典被圣灵充满，不过是尘土而已。

We're weak, Holy Spirit filled because of His grace, pieces of dust.

我们就是这样的存在。

That's what we are.

当我记得人们在我们的聚会中开始得医治时，她的父亲给我打了电话。

And I remember when people started getting healed in our meetings, her dad called me.

他对我说：我为你感到骄傲，但我能给你一点小小的建议吗？

And he said, I'm so proud of you, but can I give you just a little advice?

我说：当然可以。

I said, sure.

他说：你知道那些上帝似乎在其中流动的手吗？

He goes, you know those hands that God seems to be flowing through?

我说：嗯。

I said, yeah.

他说：那些就是你开门时用的手。

He said, Those are the same hands you open a car door with.

那些就是你洗碗时用的手。

Those are the same hands you wash dishes with.

那些就是你开橱柜时用的手。

They're the same hands you open a cupboard with.

它们只不过是被上帝充满的泥块。

They are just pieces of clay that God fills.

所以，比如她的父亲萨姆，其他神父和教职人员从未教过我们如何为病人服事。

So her dad, for example, father Sam, other priests and clergy never taught us how to minister to the sick, for example.

但他们教过我们如何祷告。

But they taught us to pray.

他们教会了我们这一切的核心——如何与主相交。

And they taught us the bull's eye of it all, how to commune with the Lord.

所以我会说，当你看到他的临在是关乎面包的事，而不是次要问题，是关乎面包的事。

So I'd say, when you see his presence as being a matter of bread, Not a side issue, a matter of bread.

如果你不吃，就会死。

If you don't eat, you die.

大卫在诗篇中写道：‘主啊，如果你向我沉默，我该怎么办？’

David said, If you're quiet, Lord, if thou be silent unto me, he wrote in the Psalms.

这就像我活在深渊里。

It's like I'm living in the pit.

所以上帝对大卫的声音并不是说：‘哦，真酷。’

So God's voice to David wasn't like, Oh, cool.

我得到了一个信息。

I got a word.

而是当你不说话时，我感觉像在地狱里。

It was when you don't talk, I feel like I'm in hell.