澳大利亚民众对“邪恶”光明节枪击事件表示愤怒

这里是BBC国际服务的全球新闻播客。

This is the global news podcast from the BBC World Service.

我是保罗·莫斯。

I'm Paul Moss.

现在是格林尼治时间12月15日星期一凌晨4点30分，以下是我们的主要新闻。

And at 04:30 GMT on Monday, December 15, these are our main stories.

澳大利亚总理承诺将严厉打击反犹主义，此前周日悉尼犹太节日活动上发生了致命袭击。

Australia's prime minister has promised to crack down on antisemitism after Sunday's deadly attack on a Jewish festival in Sydney.

智利新当选的极右翼总统何塞·安东尼奥·卡斯特在赢得周日决选后，承诺将恢复对法律的尊重。

Chile's new far right president-elect Jose Antonio Caste has promised to restore respect for the law after winning Sunday's runoff.

香港著名亲民主活动人士黎智英在备受关注的审判后被定罪。

And one of Hong Kong's leading pro democracy activist, Jimmy Lai, has been convicted after a high profile trial.

本期播客还包括：美国俄乌冲突特使表示，在柏林与泽连斯基总统的会谈取得了进展。

Also in this podcast, The US envoy on the Russia Ukraine conflict says there's been progress during talks in Berlin with president Zelensky.

以及

And

活着真是令人振奋。

It is thrilling to be alive.

太棒了。

It's great.

在我看来，生命就应该尽可能长久地活着。

Life is to be lived as long as you possibly can, it seems to me.

英国女演员海伦·米伦谈论80岁在意大利的生活与拯救橄榄树。

The British actress, Helen Mirren, talks about life in Italy and saving olive trees at the age of 80.

澳大利亚邦迪海滩枪击案引发的谴责持续升温。

Condemnation continues to mount in the wake of the Bondi Beach shooting in Australia.

世界各国政要或许正苦于寻找形容词来描述这起警方称由一对父子实施的15人冷血屠杀案。

Politicians around the world perhaps struggling to find adjectives to describe the cold blooded murder of 15 people, which police say was carried out by a father and his son.

总理安东尼·阿尔巴尼斯将其称为纯粹的邪恶。

Pure evil was what the prime minister Antonio Arbanese called it.

美国国务卿马可·卢比奥称这起事件令人发指。

The US secretary of state, Marco Rubio, called it horrific.

但也有人认为这起杀戮事件完全在预料之中，因为他们表示反犹主义一直未受遏制。

But others suggested the killings were all too predictable because antisemitism, they said, had gone unchecked.

新南威尔士州州长克里斯·明斯等人就反犹主义这一议题发表了看法。

That subject of antisemitism was addressed by, among others, the New South Wales premier, Chris Minns.

在新南威尔士州乃至整个澳大利亚，我们对种族主义或仇犹主义零容忍，必须明确表态将坚决打击一切此类行为。

There is no tolerance for racism or Jewish hatred in New South Wales or Australia, and we need to be clear and unambiguous that we will fight it everywhere we see it.

这种思想具有毒性。

It is toxic.

它如同社区内的癌细胞。

It is cancerous within a community.

正如昨晚事件所示，它给我们国家人民带来了极其严重的后果。

And as you can see from last night, it leads to devastating devastating implications for the people of our country.

澳大利亚警方两年前启动了名为"庇护行动"的专项计划，明确旨在应对可能由加沙冲突引发的国内公共安全问题。

It's two years since Australian police launched what they called Operation Shelter that explicitly aimed to deal with issues of public safety in the country, which might be sparked by the conflict in Gaza.

新南威尔士州警察局长马龙·兰农周日表示，将立即升级"庇护行动"的执行力度。

Speaking on Sunday, the New South Wales police commissioner, Mal Lanyon, said operation shelter would now be stepped up.

我们将确保在宗教场所、犹太社区常去的地点以及那些我们知道有大量犹太人口的郊区高度显眼地部署警力。

We will make sure that we are highly visible at places of worship, places that are known to be frequented by the Jewish community, but very much in those suburbs where we know that we have a large Jewish population.

但对某些人来说，这一切来得太迟了。

But for some, this is all too late.

以色列总理本雅明·内塔尼亚胡是已经为枪击事件归咎的人之一。

Among those who've already assigned blame for the shooting is the Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

他表示曾在8月致信澳大利亚总理安东尼·阿尔巴尼斯，指出承认巴勒斯坦国将助长反犹主义。

He said he'd written to his Australian counterpart in August telling Anthony Albanese that recognizing a Palestinian state would encourage antisemitism.

他声称邦迪海滩枪击事件正是这一决策的后果。

He claimed the Bondi Beach shooting was a consequence of that decision.

悉尼中央犹太会堂的拉比利维·沃尔夫也表达了类似观点。

There were similar sentiments expressed by Levi Wolf, rabbi of the Central Synagogue in Sydney.

他似乎也在抱怨政府对偏见过于宽容。

He too seemed to complain that the government had been too tolerant of prejudice.

当反犹主义不受遏制时，这类事件必然发生。我们现在正目睹反犹主义造成的可怕必然结果——就像仅仅一代人前它对我们同胞所做的那样。

Inevitably, when antisemitism goes unchecked, these are things that happen, and we are now seeing the dreaded inevitable result of antisemitism doing exactly what it has done to our people just a generation ago.

沃尔夫拉比也是众多表示已因担心遭受袭击而采取预防措施的澳大利亚人之一。

Rabbi Wolf was also one of the many Australians who said they'd already taken precautions out of fear of an attack.

例如，学校劝阻学生佩戴任何能识别其犹太身份的物品。

Schools, for example, discouraging pupils from wearing anything which identified them as Jewish.

悉尼记者艾米·莱博维茨表示，她因担心可能发生的事件而特意避免参加邦迪海滩的活动。

And the Sydney based journalist, Amy Leibovitz, said she had specifically avoided going to the Bondi Beach event out of fear of what might happen.

一周前，我刚和我妈妈有过一次谈话。

A week prior, I was having a conversation with my mom.

我们通常会参加公开的汉努卡节庆祝活动。

We normally attend the open Hanukkah festivities.

在我居住的北岸地区就有一个。

There's one in my local area in the North Shore.

邦迪也有一个。

There's also one in Bondi.

这个活动每年都会举行。

It happens every year.

我们当时在讨论，到底去不去？

And we were discussing, do we go?

去还是不去？

Do we not go?

我对妈妈说，我们不该去，因为存在很高的恐怖主义风险，可能会出事。

And I said to my mom, we shouldn't be going because there's a high risk of terrorism that something could happen.

所以我们实际上因为担心可能发生的事而改变了计划，这种结果让人感到无比沮丧和难过。

So we actually changed our plans out of fear of what could happen, and it just felt so frustrating and upsetting that this is the outcome.

那么这次袭击是否本可以被预测并真正阻止呢？

So could the attack have been predicted and indeed prevented?

我的同事斯蒂芬·诺兰一直在与乔什·鲁斯博士讨论这个问题。

My colleague, Stephen Nolan, has been discussing this issue with doctor Josh Roos.

他是澳大利亚维多利亚州迪肯大学的政治学教授，他表示针对犹太人的威胁一直在增长，且来自不同源头。

He's a politics professor at Deakin University in the Australian state of Victoria and says threats against Jews have been growing and from different sources.

最近几周，极右翼新纳粹分子对犹太社区进行了重点攻击，同时穆斯林社区内的圣战分子也构成了长期存在的威胁。

In recent weeks, there's been significant targeting the Jewish community from the extreme right neo Nazis, and there's been a prevalent and existing threat from jihadist elements within Muslim communities as well.

特别是自10月7日以来，澳大利亚的反犹太主义呈指数级增长。

Particularly since October 7, the increase in antisemitism in Australia has been exponential.

这通过多种形式表现出来。

This has played out in a number of ways.

包括抗议活动。

It's been through the protests.

人们当然有权抗议加沙战争。

People have a right to protest against the warring Gaza, of course.

然而其中混杂着对澳大利亚犹太社区的针对性攻击，特别是针对犹太人经营的商铺。

However, wrapped up in that has been significant targeting of Australian Jewish communities, and in particular targeting of local Jews in terms of shops.

我们已看到伊朗驻澳大使因参与针对犹太教堂的活动而被驱逐，此外犹太社区每天还面临诸多其他威胁。

We've seen the Iranian ambassador expelled here in Australia due to their involvement in targeting synagogues, as well as a number of other threats on a daily basis to Jewish communities.

某种程度上，澳大利亚政府未能妥善处理这些问题。

And that has been, to some extent, not dealt with adequately by the Australian government.

尽管他们任命了反犹太主义特使，但至今未落实特使提出的任何建议。

Whilst they've appointed an antisemitism envoy, for example, they haven't implemented any of the findings from the envoy.

有人拒绝承认威胁的严重性，甚至在某些圈子里被描述为澳大利亚犹太人小题大做、无病呻吟。

There's been a refusal to countenance the severity of the threat, and it's been framed in some quarters as Jewish Australians whinging and making a mountain out of a molehill.

实际情况比他们描述的更为严重，我们现在已经清楚地认识到了这一点。

This isn't as bad as they're saying, and we clearly know now that it is.

你认为澳大利亚境内还会有许多其他活跃的极端组织吗？

Do you expect many other cells to be active in Australia?

这种情况已经持续了很长时间。

This has been ongoing for a prolonged period of time.

澳大利亚在十到十五年前的伊斯兰国时期，按人口比例计算，输出的外国战斗人员比任何其他西方国家都多。

Australia, ten to fifteen years ago during the Islamic State, produced more foreign fighters per head of population than any other Western country.

这不是穆斯林社区的问题，而是激进分子的问题，特别是那些年轻二代、三代澳大利亚穆斯林，他们不幸地容易通过网络和时事被激进化。

This isn't an issue with the Muslim community, but it is an issue with radicalised elements, particularly young second and third generation Australian Muslims who are unfortunately able to be radicalized online, but also through current events.

从这个角度来看，这是一个长期存在的问题。

To that extent, this has been an ongoing issue.

不幸的是，当局必须在处理这个问题与应对极右翼势力之间取得平衡。

And, unfortunately, authorities have to balance this with what's going on with the extreme right.

澳大利亚目前面临着严重的新纳粹威胁，这些运动中有许多是针对犹太社区的网络威胁、辱骂和骚扰。

We have a significant neo Nazi threat now in Australia, with many of these movements are individuals targeting Jewish communities for threats online and abuse and harassment.

因此，澳大利亚的犹太社区实际上被夹在新纳粹分子和萨拉菲圣战分子之间。

And so Australia's Jewish communities are being effectively wedged between neo Nazis and Salafi jihadists on the other hand.

从澳大利亚政府层面监控这种威胁不仅极其耗费资源，而且极具挑战性。

And keeping an eye on that threat from the Australian government level is not only incredibly resource intensive, but deeply challenging.

你提到澳大利亚政府做得还不够。

And you mentioned that the Australian government hasn't done enough.

他们在此之前应该做哪些工作？

What work should they have done before now?

澳大利亚政府试图将其作为另一种形式的种族主义来淡化处理。

The Australian government has attempted to play this off as another form of racism.

例如，在任命反犹太主义特使时，当澳大利亚人表达他们面临的挑战和敌意迅速增加时，他们觉得需要通过任命伊斯兰恐惧症特使来平衡这一点。

For example, in appointing the antisemitism envoy when Australians were communicating their challenges and the rapid increase in the hostility that they were facing, they felt a need to balance this out by pointing, for example, an Islamophobia envoy.

当反犹太主义特使发布调查结果时，他们未能充分理解这些结果的实际含义并真正实施这些建议。

When the anti Semitism envoy has released findings, they've failed to engage adequately with what that actually meant and to actually implement those findings.

约翰·鲁斯博士。

Doctor John Roose.

袭击发生后，警方提供了更多关于枪手的信息。

In the aftermath of the attack, police have provided more information about the shooters.

父亲是外国出生，1998年持学生签证来到澳大利亚。

The father was foreign born and arrived in Australia in 1998 on a student visa.

他合法拥有多支枪支，并且是一个射击俱乐部的成员。

He legally owned several guns and was a member of a shooting club.

他在现场死亡。

He died at the scene.

他24岁在澳大利亚出生的儿子目前被拘留。

His 24 year old Australian born son is in custody.

现在变得清晰的是这次枪击事件的巨大规模及其引发的恐惧，不仅影响了参加光明节活动的人，还导致附近数百人逃命。

What's become clear is the sheer scale of the shooting and the fear it caused, not just among those attending the Hanukkah event, but hundreds of others nearby sent running for their lives.

当时我正坐在沙发上，只听到像烟花一样的可怕声音，而且是一连串的响声。

At the time, I was just on my sofa, and I just heard the poor sound like fireworks going off, and it was multiple, multiple going off.

于是我拉开百叶窗想看看发生了什么，结果看到一位老太太中枪倒在地上。

So I sort of opened the blinds to see what was going on, and I just saw an older lady get shot, and she was on the floor.

又看到一位老先生中枪，左手伤势非常严重，还看到一群人尖叫着朝我这边跑来。

Saw an older guy get shot, very badly injured on the left hand side, and I just saw a bunch of people screaming, run towards me.

我当时完全不知道发生了什么。

I didn't know what was going on.

他们只是不断大喊'找掩护，快找掩护'。

They were just shouting, you know, get cover, get cover.

我立刻跑到前门锁上门，又冲进卧室放下百叶窗，最后躲进了衣柜里。

So I ran to my front door, put the lock on, and then ran to my bedroom, put the blinds down, just took cover in my wardrobe.

我当时正在那边的餐厅工作，记得当时正在收拾餐盘。

I was out at the restaurant over there, and I was just serving some I think I was taking away some dishes.

我离店门口很近，突然听到枪声响起，整个店里的人都站了起来，我们全都从后门逃了出去。

But I was nearby the front, and, you know, I heard these shots go off, and the whole shop just, like, stood up, and we all just ran into the back exit.

所有人都在互相推挤。

Everyone was pushing everyone.

现场一片混乱，我们只顾着往里冲

There was no semblance, and we just ran in for

关于悉尼事件的最新进展，我采访了我们的记者菲尔·默瑟，他描述了一个与平日氛围截然不同的海滩场景

For the latest on the situation in Sydney, I spoke to our correspondent Phil Mercer, who described a beach scene almost unrecognizable from its normal appearance and mood.

我站在一片可以俯瞰邦迪凉亭的草地上，这里通常是社区活动的中心

I'm stood on a grassy bank overlooking Bondi Pavilion, which is ordinarily a hub for the community.

而今天，这里成为了周日悉尼枪击案受害者的临时纪念场所

Today, it is a makeshift memorial for the victims of the Sydney shooting on Sunday.

每分钟都有民众前来献花致哀，在这片突然陷入混乱的海滩上寻求片刻的宁静与追思

Flowers are arriving every single minute by people coming down to pay their respects and to have a brief moment of thought and calm in this sea of chaos that erupted here.

除了这片公园区域外，其他地方都异常安静

It is beyond this particular bit of park, very quiet.

邦迪海滩大部分区域已被警方封锁

Bondi Beach mostly has been shut down by the police.

可以想见，仅几步之遥的犯罪现场仍有法医人员在仔细勘查，这里部署了大量警力

And as you would imagine, just a short walk away, the crime scene is still being poured over by forensic officers, and there is a a very heavy police presence here as

嗯。

well.

菲尔，我们听说有人指责澳大利亚政府在打击反犹太主义方面做得不够，还有以色列总理的干预声称这次袭击可能与澳大利亚承认巴勒斯坦国有关。

Phil, we've heard there are people blaming the Australian government for supposedly not doing enough to tackle antisemitism and also this intervention from the Israeli prime minister claiming the attacks could be linked to Australia recognizing Palestine as a state.

我想知道你认为这在澳大利亚会引起怎样的反响。

I wonder how you think that's gonna go down in Australia.

我们刚刚在距离当地犹太社区两位资深成员几米远的地方参加了一场新闻发布会，他们表示这是他们一直担心的一天，噩梦成真了——自10月7日袭击事件和以色列在加沙的战争开始以来，反犹太主义浪潮席卷了整个澳大利亚。

Well, we've just heard a press conference a few meters away from two senior members of the local Jewish community, and they were saying that this is a day that they've been dreading, and this was their nightmares coming true because of this wave of antisemitism that has swept across Australia since the attacks on the October 7 and the start of Israel's war in Gaza.

某些方面批评澳大利亚政府没有采取足够措施来扭转这股反犹太主义浪潮。

And there is criticism in certain quarters that the Australian government has not done enough to try to turn back that tide of antisemitism.

对这些指控有任何回应吗？还是说现在为时过早？

Have has there been any reaction to those allegations, or is it too soon?

我特别想问问关于以色列总理的言论，他似乎直接指责了澳大利亚总理。

I mean, particularly, I was thinking of what the Israeli prime minister had to say, apparently directly blaming, it seemed, the Australian prime minister.

是的。

Yes.

安东尼·阿尔巴尼斯回避了那个具体问题，表示现在卷入那种政治还为时过早。

Anthony Albanese has, sidestepped that particular issue indicating that it's far too early to get involved in that sort of politics.

但毫无疑问，澳大利亚对反犹太主义的应对将受到更严格的审查。

But, certainly, Australia's response to antisemitism will come under greater scrutiny.

阿尔巴尼斯先生在过去24小时内表示，他的政府非常重视对犹太教堂、车辆和餐厅的袭击事件。

Mister Albanese has said in the last twenty four hours that his government has taken the issue of attacks on synagogues, on cars, on restaurants very seriously.

当然，这里发生的事件将再次引发对政府承认巴勒斯坦国以及应对反犹太主义措施的强烈关注。

But, of course, what happened here will draw once again intense scrutiny on the government's recognition of the Palestinian state and also its response to antisemitism.

我们得知两名嫌疑人中较年长的一位是持证枪支拥有者，令我震惊的是澳大利亚常因严格的枪支管控法律和严格的持枪资格限制而受到赞扬。

We've told that the older of the two suspects was a licensed gun holder, and what strikes me is that Australia is often praised for having very tight gun control laws, tight restrictions on who gets to own a gun.

现在很可能会有人质疑这些法律是否真的有效。

Presumably, there's now gonna be questions raised about whether those laws really work.

我们听到新南威尔士州州长克里斯·明斯表示，这些枪支法律很可能会被重新审视。

Well, we heard from the New South Wales state premier, a man called Chris Minns, and he is suggesting that those gun laws could well be revisited.

这是澳大利亚近三十年来最严重的大规模枪击事件。

This is Australia's worst mass shooting for almost thirty years.

1996年，塔斯马尼亚岛的亚瑟港有35人丧生。

In 1996, 35 people died at a place called Port Arthur on the island state of Tasmania.

那起事件推动了全面的枪支管控措施。

That prompted sweeping gun control measures.

如今，在这样的地点、这样的政治局势下发生如此暴行，可以说澳大利亚的枪支管控措施必将面临更严格的审查。

And once again, with an atrocity like this in a place like this, at a political situation like this, you'd have to say that, further scrutiny of Australia's gun control measures will be an inevitable consequence of this.

悉尼的菲尔·默瑟报道。

Phil Mercer in Sydney.

在我与菲尔通话后，总理安东尼·阿尔巴内塞表示将推动更严格的枪支法。

And since I spoke to Phil, the prime minister, Anthony Albanese, has said he will pursue tougher gun laws.

智利的选择形成了极其鲜明的对比。

The choice in Chile could not have been more stark.

当选民们周日前往投票站时，他们面临两位总统候选人。

When voters went to the polls on Sunday, they had two candidates for president.

一方是共产党人。

On the one hand, a communist.

另一方面，是一个通常被描述为极右翼的人。

On the other, a man usually described as far right.

何塞·安东尼奥·卡斯特是一位德国纳粹党员的儿子，他曾表达过对智利前独裁者奥古斯托·皮诺切特的钦佩。

Jose Antonio Caste is the son of a German Nazi party member, and he's expressed admiration for Augusto Pinochet, the country's one time dictator.

他承诺打击犯罪并驱逐非法移民，这些主张显然在投票中获得了回报，使他以看似意外的高票优势获胜。

He's promised to crack down on crime and deport illegal immigrants, and that apparently has paid dividends at the ballot box, giving him victory by what seems to be an unexpectedly high margin.

共产党候选人加夫列尔·博里克迅速承认败选。

The Communist Party candidate, Hanet Hara, was quick to concede.

我想告诉大家，今天民主已经发出了响亮而清晰的声音。

I want to tell you all that today, democracy has spoken loud and clear.

我已联系当选总统何塞·安东尼奥·卡斯特，祝愿他为了智利和我们国家所有人民的福祉取得成功。

I contacted the president-elect, Jose Antonio Caste, to wish him success for the good of Chile and all the people living in our country.

在圣地亚哥的胜选演讲中，卡斯特先生阐述了他的执政重点。

In a victory speech in Santiago, mister Caste set out his priorities for office.

我们将恢复法治。

We are going to restore the rule of law.

我们将在所有地区无一例外地恢复对法律的尊重，不设特权。

We are going to restore respect for the law in all regions without exception, without privileges.

没有政治特权，没有行政特权，没有司法特权，因为我们必须服务的是公民，而非那些掌握权力职位的人。

No political privileges, no administrative privileges, no judicial privileges, because it is the citizens we must serve, not those who hold positions of power.

我们的南美记者黛安·威尔斯一直在跟进这次选举，她从智利首都圣地亚哥发来了最新消息。

Our South America correspondent, Diane Wells, has been following the election, and she gave me this update from the Chilean capital Santiago.

目前非常明确的是，何塞·安东尼奥·卡斯特将成为智利下一任总统。

It's very clear at this point that Jose Antonio Caste is going to be Chile's next president.

他在第三次总统竞选中以超过58%的选票决定性胜出。

He won decisively with more than 58% of the votes in his third attempt at running for president.

早些时候，我在他支持者聚集观看选举结果的人群中，许多人披着智利国旗，有些人戴着写有'让智利再次伟大'的红色帽子。

Earlier, I was in a crowd of his supporters where they had gathered to watch the results come in in Santiago, many of them draped in Chile flags, some wearing red caps saying make Chile great again.

当结果公布时，他们欢呼雀跃，高喊口号。

They were cheering and chanting when that result came through.

其中一些人告诉我，鉴于他之前竞选总统的经历，他们等待这一刻已有多年。

Some of them told me that they had been waiting for this moment for years given his previous attempts to run for president.

现在已经非常明确，他将于明年3月11日正式就任下一任总统●●●。

It is now very clear that he is going to be inaugurated as the next president on the March 11 next year.

他在选举集会中明确将这一天设为最后期限，要求非正规移民离境，否则将失去再次入境的机会。

He has set that as a deadline in his rallies throughout this election campaign for irregular migrants to leave the country if they ever want the chance to get back in again.

他明确表示当选后的首要任务是打击他所认为的非正规移民问题，同时解决国内犯罪和普遍存在的安全隐患。

He has made it very clear that his top priority now that he has been elected president is to crack down on what he sees as a rise in irregular migration, but also on crime and general security issues in the country too.

距离智利上次选举前总统加布里埃尔·博里奇才过去四年，当时他以左翼纲领参选，主张对富人征税并关注环境问题。

It's only four years since Chile voted for the previous president, Gabriel Boric, and he campaigned on a pretty left wing ticket, high taxes for the rich, focus on environmental issues.

如今国家却选择了一位被描述为极右翼的人物。

Now the country's voted for someone described as far right.

我的意思是，究竟发生了什么变化？

I mean, what has changed?

我认为这是个非常有趣的问题，背后有多种因素在起作用。

I think it's a really interesting question, and there are different factors behind this.

有些人将博里奇支持率下降归因于他早期的一些失误。

Some see the so called sort of fall in Boruch's popularity as being due to some early mistakes.

例如，他曾试图推行新宪法。

He tried, for example, to introduce a new constitution.

该宪法在2022年被选民否决。

It was rejected by voters in 2022.

部分公众认为新宪法过于激进，我认为这损害了政府的政治资本。

Some of the public perceived the new constitution as too radical, and that damaged, I think, some of the government's sort of political capital as well.

随后国内对安全问题的担忧日益加剧。

Then there was the emergence of this increasing concern about security issues in the country.

智利仍是该地区最安全稳定的国家之一，但民众对犯罪（尤其是有组织犯罪）增长的感知日益强烈。

Chile is still one of the safest and more stable countries in the region, but there has been a growing perception of crime, particularly organized crime growing.

自2017年以来，智利移民数量增加，而何塞·安东尼奥·卡斯特等右翼候选人确实利用了这一点。

Immigration has risen in the country since 2017, and certainly, right wing candidates like Jose Antonio Caste capitalized on that.

他们将犯罪率上升归咎于移民，尽管有研究表明在智利的外国人平均犯罪率实际上低于智利人。

They made this link blaming immigration for rising crime even though some studies suggest that actually foreigners in Chile, on average, commit fewer crimes than Chileans.

但毫无疑问，这个问题确实激怒了许多选民，成为本次竞选中的重要议题。

But certainly, this became an issue that really, I think, a lot of voters were very incensed by really going into this campaign.

加布里埃尔·博里确实推出了一些全面新措施，特别是福利政策。

Gabriel Borys did introduce some sweeping new measures, particularly welfare measures.

他提高了最低工资标准。

He raised the minimum wage.

他增加了养老金发放额度。

He made pensions more generous.

他为部分最贫困的智利人提供免费医疗，并缩短了每周工作时间。

He introduced free health care for some of the poorest Chileans, shorten the working weeks.

他确实设法推动通过了多项政策，但这次竞选活动中显而易见的是，部分选民认为现政府未能充分代表他们的利益。

So there were various policies that he did manage to pass through, but I think one thing that was clear on this election campaign was some voters didn't feel like the current government was serving them well enough.

他们渴望看到变革，而卡斯正是这种变革的象征。

They wanted to see change, and for them, Cass represented that.

正如我所说，他以巨大优势获胜，但这仍意味着有大量选民支持共产党——在这个似乎严重两极分化的国家。

Now he has, as I said, won by a wide margin, but that still leaves an awful lot of people who voted for a communist in a country which I guess seems to be very polarized.

确实如此。

That's right.

我认为有趣的是，在与一些投票站选民交谈时，他们表示感到被剥夺了权利，因为他们面临的是相当极端的选择。

And I think what was interesting speaking to some voters at the ballot boxes, some of them were saying that they felt quite disenfranchised by what they saw as quite an extreme choice.

他们不喜欢何塞·安东尼奥·卡斯的极右翼言论，但也不特别认同一位共产党成员的理念——尽管她近几个月试图将自己定位为中左翼以吸引更广泛的选民。

They didn't like the far right rhetoric of Jose Antonio Cas, but also didn't particularly like the idea of someone who is a member of the Communist Party even if she had tried to position herself more to the center left in recent months as she tried to appeal to a wider audience.

这确实让许多选民感到被边缘化，觉得他们不得不在两个都不太喜欢的选项中投票给相对较好的那个。

I think that did leave a lot of voters feeling quite disenfranchised and feeling like they had to vote for whichever they saw as the sort of better of two options they didn't particularly like.

但你说得对，未来将会出现两极分化，特别是在移民问题上，批评者认为需要减少移民。

But I think you're right to suggest that there will be polarization now going forward, particularly when it comes to the issue of migration with critics saying that it needs to be reduced.

然而支持者表示，移民对智利的劳动力市场至关重要。

Supporters, though, saying that migration is absolutely crucial for Chile's workforce.

这里是圣地亚哥的艾奥尼·威尔斯，我们刚刚在录制这期播客时收到突发新闻。

Ione Wells in Santiago, and we have some breaking news that's come in just as we record this podcast.

洛杉矶警方表示正在调查两具尸体的死亡事件，尸体是在电影导演兼演员罗伯·莱纳家中发现的。

Police in Los Angeles say they're investigating the deaths of two people whose bodies were found at the home of the film director and actor Rob Reiner.

两名受害者的身份尚未正式确认，但莱纳的家人表示他和妻子米歇尔·辛格·莱纳已经去世。

The two victims have not been formally identified, but Reiner's family say that he and his wife, Michelle Singer Reiner, are dead.

雷纳因执导《当哈利遇到莎莉》、《公主新娘》和《摇滚万万岁》等经典影片而闻名。

Reiner's known for directing such classic films as When Harry Met Sally, The Princess Bride, and This Is Spinal Tap.

BBC将对此事件进行持续跟踪报道。

The BBC will have more on this story as it develops.

您可以访问我们的网站bbcnews.com获取最新消息。

You can visit our website at bbcnews.com for updates.

全球新闻播客稍后继续为您带来。

Still to come on the Global News podcast.

这确实是世界自然奇观之一。

It's really one of the natural wonders of the world.

经过数十年沉寂后，它突然绽放出植物界最大的花序结构。

After decades, suddenly produces what we would call the largest inflorescent flower bearing structure in the plant kingdom.

巴西那棵一生只开一次花的巨型棕榈树。

The giant palm tree in Brazil that only blooms once in its lifetime.

香港法院的判决虽不意外，但对黎智英及其众多支持者仍是沉重打击。

The verdict of the Hong Kong court was hardly a surprise, but still a desperate blow for Jimmy Lai and indeed for his many supporters.

这位报业出版商及后来的亲民主活动人士被指控犯有煽动罪和勾结外国势力罪，均违反了该地区严厉的国家安全法。

The newspaper publisher and later pro democracy activist has been accused of sedition and colluding with foreign forces, all in breach of the territory's harsh national security law.

根据这些法律被起诉的人中，很少有人被无罪释放。

Of those who've been prosecuted under these laws, few have ever been acquitted.

本案法官表示，毫无疑问黎智英对中国怀有仇恨，是国家安全威胁。

The judge in this case said there was no doubt that Jimmy Lai harbored hatred for China and was a national threat.

我们的记者Danny Vincent在法庭现场见证了判决结果。

Our correspondent Danny Vincent was in court for the verdict.

黎智英多年来被视为对香港当局和中国当局最直言不讳的批评者之一。

Jimmy Lai has been seen as one of the most outspoken critics of the Hong Kong authorities and the Chinese authorities for many years.

当2020年《国家安全法》颁布时，黎智英迅速被捕。

When the national security law was introduced in 2020, Jimmy Lyon was quickly arrested.

他被拘留，此后一直身陷囹圄。

He was detained, and he's been in prison ever since.

如今当局指控他并已正式以勾结外国势力与煽动叛乱罪名起诉。

Now the authorities accused him and and have now charged him of colluding with foreigners and an act of sedition.

在涉及与外国势力勾结的指控上，法官详细审查了黎智英的许多WhatsApp信息，包括他与同事的对话内容，其中显示他曾试图安排与美国官员会面。

When it comes to colluding with foreigners, the judge went through many of Jimmy Lai's WhatsApp messages, messages with one of his colleagues where he attempted to organize meetings with US officials in America.

根据法官的裁决，法庭认定黎智英与这些官员的会面已成为判定他犯有勾结外国势力罪行的证据之一。

Now according to the judge, according to the ruling of the court, Jimmy Lai meeting with these officials is it has been part of the evidence that they've used to find him guilty of colluding with foreigners.

正如你提到的，黎智英目前已在狱中服刑。

Now as you mentioned, Jimmy Lai has already been in jail.

据我所知他已服刑五年，且据报道健康状况不佳。

I think it's five years so far, and he's reported to be in poor health.

他在法庭上的状态如何？

How did he look in court?

据报道，黎智英的健康状况确实堪忧。

Well, Jimmy Lai has been reported to be in poor health.

他的家人多次表达了深切忧虑。

His family members have raised many concerns.

家属透露探视时发现他的指甲已脱落。

They've said that they when they've met him, his fingernails have fallen off.

他们还提到他皮肤状况糟糕。

They've also spoken about the poor condition of his skin.

我们知道他患有糖尿病，还有心脏病史。

We know that he has diabetes and also has had a heart condition.

因此对他的健康状况存在诸多担忧。

So there have been many concerns about his health.

今天庭审时，黎智英精神状态相对较好。

In court today, Jimmy Lai was in relatively high spirits.

他面带笑容。

He was smiling.

他还向家人挥手致意。

He also waved to his family.

许多香港市民通宵排队试图进入法庭听审判决。

Many Hong Kong residents lined up through the night to try to get to court to see this verdict.

黎智英已被监禁多年。

Jimmy Lai's been in prison for for many years.

审判于两年前正式开始，但他已被拘留五年之久。

The trial officially started two years ago, but he's been detained for for five years.

现在他可能面临终身监禁。

It's now possible that he could face life in in prison.

量刑将在随后进行，但今天我们已知的是黎智英对所有指控罪名成立。

Sentencing is to follow, but what we know today is that Kim Ilai is guilty of all the charges.

而这一判决出炉仅在香港最后一个亲民主政党宣布在中国施压下被迫关闭的次日。

And the verdict came just a day after Hong Kong's last pro democracy political party shut down under duress from China, they said.

我只是想知道这对香港的民主运动意味着什么。

I just wonder where that leaves the pro democracy movement in Hong Kong.

批评人士表示，民主运动已被国家安全法严重削弱。

Well, critics say that the pro democracy movement has been decimated by the national security law.

许多反对派领导人已被拘留。

Many of the opposition leaders have been detained.

许多人已经逃离。

Many have have fled.

许多参与抗议的年轻人。

Many young people that took part in the protests.

这些人中有许多已经离开了香港。

Many of those people have have have left Hong Kong.

许多人面临监禁。

Many people have faced imprisonment.

因此批评者会说民主运动实质上已被国家安全法摧毁。

So critics will say that the the democracy movement has been essentially destroyed by the national security law.

当局不会同意这种说法。

The authorities wouldn't agree.

他们会说香港仍然是一个自由开放的社会。

They would say Hong Kong is still a a free and open society.

但今天看到黎智英被定罪，香港许多人可能会产生疑问。

But today, many people in Hong Kong seeing Jimmy Lai is, now guilty.

他们或许会有不同的看法。

They might question otherwise.

丹尼·文森特。

Danny Vincent.

谈到乌克兰战争时，唐纳德·特朗普抱怨欧洲政客花了太多时间空谈。

When it comes to the war in Ukraine, Donald Trump has complained that European politicians spend too much time just talking.

但实际上，他自己的特使同样花费了大量时间与冲突各方进行对话。

But in fact, his own emissaries have also spent plenty of time talking to the parties in this conflict.

最新一轮会谈于上周日在柏林举行，美国特使史蒂夫·维特科夫和特朗普的女婿贾里德·库什纳会见了乌克兰总统泽连斯基。

The latest talking took place in Berlin on Sunday when The US envoy Steve Witkoff and Donald Trump's son-in-law Jared Kushner met with Ukraine's president Zelensky.

和过去无数次一样，美国代表团坚称已取得进展。

As so often in the past, The US delegation insisted that progress had been made.

欧洲编辑卡佳·阿德勒在柏林表示，美国当然希望情况如此。

Europe editor Katja Adler is in Berlin and says The US certainly wants that to be the case.

唐纳德·特朗普已经变得非常不耐烦了。

Donald Trump is getting really impatient.

他的政府近期发布了国家安全战略，其中将稳定美俄关系列为首要任务。

His administration recently published its national security strategy where it prioritizes stabilizing US relations with Moscow.

所以，理想情况下，唐纳德·特朗普确实希望这一切能结束，但乌克兰拒绝屈服。

So, ideally, Donald Trump really wants an end to all of this, but Ukraine is refusing to roll over.

弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基今天在柏林表示，是的，他愿意在某些事情上妥协。

Volodymyr Zelensky here in Berlin today said, yeah, he's willing to compromise on some things.

他不再坚持将北约成员资格作为和平协议的一部分，但他坚持要求包括美国在内的盟友提供铁定的安全保障，以确保俄罗斯不会再次入侵。

He's no longer insisting on NATO membership as part of a peace deal, but he is insisting on getting cast iron security guarantees from his allies, including The US, to make sure that Russia doesn't invade again.

目前与美国谈判代表的会谈如此紧张，我们被告知谈判将持续到明天早上。

Now talks here with US negotiators were so intense that we're told they're gonna roll over into tomorrow morning.

我告诉你还有谁明天会来，那是一长串欧洲大人物。

And I tell you who else is coming here tomorrow, and that is a big list of big European names.

法国的埃马纽埃尔·马克龙、丹麦的西基尔·斯塔默、瑞典首相、荷兰首相，据我所知还有波兰首相、北约秘书长，他们所有人都是来给弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基撑腰的吗？

Emmanuel Macron of France, Sikir Stahmer, the Danish, the Swedish, the Dutch prime ministers, I'm told, the Polish prime minister, NATO secretary general, all of them to hold Volodymyr Zelensky's hand?

不是。

No.

这是因为他们确信这不仅关乎乌克兰未来的主权。

It's because they are convinced this isn't just about Ukrainian sovereignty going forward.

这关乎欧洲未来的安全。

It's about the future security of Europe.

本次会议的主办方德国总理弗里德里希·梅尔茨表示，这是俄罗斯对乌克兰乃至整个欧洲发动的侵略战争。

The host of this meeting, the German chancellor, Friedrich Mertz, says this is a Russian war of aggression against Ukraine and against the rest of Europe.

这些欧洲领导人担心，如果对俄罗斯过于软弱的和平协议达成，弗拉基米尔·普京将会卷土重来。

These European leaders are worried that if there is a peace deal that's too soft on Russia, then Vladimir Putin will come back for more.

就在这种外交拉锯战持续的同时，乌克兰境内的地面战争也在继续，夺走越来越多的生命。

And while this diplomatic ping pong continues, of course, so does the war on the ground in Ukraine, claiming more and more lives.

柏林记者艾德勒报道。

Catcher Adler in Berlin.

里约热内卢出现了一处吸引人群的新景点——巨型棕榈树。

There's a new site in Rio De Janeiro that's pulling in the crowds, giant palm tree.

你可能会问它有什么特别之处？

What's so special, you may ask?

这种特殊树种原产于南印度和斯里兰卡，六十年前被移植到这座巴西城市。

Well, this particular species is native to Southern India and Sri Lanka and was replanted in the Brazilian city sixty years ago.

经过数十年的生长，这棵树首次开花了。

And all these decades later, the tree is for the first time producing flowers.

比尔·贝克教授是伦敦邱园植物园的棕榈树专家，他解释了这棵树及其突然开花为何如此特别。

Professor Bill Baker is an expert on palms at Kew Botanic Gardens in London and explained why this tree and indeed its sudden transformation into bloom is so special.

这确实是世界自然奇观之一。

It's really one of the natural wonders of the world.

它是一棵极其巨大的棕榈树。

It is an absolutely immensely enormous palm tree.

树干直径可达近一米，能长出约25米高的茎干，顶部是巨大的扇形叶片组成的树冠。

It has a trunk that can be almost a meter wide, and it shoots up a stem of about 25 meters with a crown of massive fan shaped leaves.

每片叶子的直径约五米。

Each of those leaves is about five meters in diameter.

它拥有惊人的开花策略——在数十年只生长树干和叶片后，会突然转向繁殖，产生植物界最大的花序（或称开花结构）。

And then it has this astonishing flowering strategy whereby after decades of just growing trunk and leaves, it suddenly switches over to reproduction and produces what we would call the largest inflorescence or the largest flower bearing structure in the plant kingdom.

而且它一生只开一次花，这种繁殖行为会耗尽它的生命。

And it does it just once, so it's a fatal effort.

我们认为这可能是应对其生长在相对不稳定环境中的一种策略。

We think it's a strategy probably to deal with the fact that it grows in relatively disturbed environments.

通过一次性爆发式地产生大量花粉和种子，它能更有机会在所处的不稳定环境中繁衍。

So by producing massive amounts of flour and then seeds all in one explosive effort, you have a higher chance of colonizing these disturbed environments in which it lives.

最令人惊叹的是，当它完全开花时，我们估计整棵树的花朵数量高达2400万朵。

The really amazing thing about it is that when it's in full flower, we think the whole thing contains as many as 24,000,000 flowers.

这绝对令人难以置信。

It's absolutely mind boggling.

棕榈树专家比尔·贝克教授。

Palm tree expert professor Bill Baker.

在长达六十年的演艺生涯中，英国演员海伦·米伦女爵获得了无数顶级奖项——奥斯卡奖、金球奖、五次艾美奖和托尼奖，出演角色之多难以尽数。

In her six decade long career, the British actor Dame Helen Mirren has won many top awards, an Oscar, Golden Globes, five Emmys, and a Tony award for roles too numerous to mention.

但除非你住在意大利，否则你很可能从未见过或听过这样的她。

But you probably haven't seen or heard her like this before unless you live in Italy.

在那段2021年的视频中，她与一位意大利喜剧演员共同出镜，鼓励人们接种新冠疫苗。

In that 2021 video, she appeared with an Italian comedian encouraging people to get vaccinated against COVID.

这段视频是在她位于意大利最南部普利亚大区切伦托的农舍拍摄的。

It was filmed at her farmhouse in Celento in the southernmost Italian region of Puglia.

过去十八年的大部分时间里，她都居住于此，融入当地社区，并致力于拯救遭受罕见病毒侵袭的本地橄榄树林。

She spent a good part of the last eighteen years there becoming part of the local community and campaigning to save the local olive groves, are suffering from a rare virus.

她向我的同事朱利安·沃里克解释了自己参与这项工作的原因。

She told my colleague, Julian Warwicker, why she got involved in this work.

当我们初到切伦托时，这里有着最美好的绿色环境，遍布着新老橄榄树林。

When we arrived in Celento, it was the most wonderful green environment filled with young and ancient olive groves.

我们最初听说这种病毒正在加里波利附近的橄榄树林中侵袭树木，从某种程度上说这简直是场完美风暴。

And we first heard of this virus that was attacking trees in olive groves down near Gallipoli and it was a perfect storm in a way.

南切伦托地区没有大型橄榄种植家族。

They're not big olive growing families in Southern Celento.

他们都是小规模的本土农户。

They're all small local farmers.

他们当时根本不知道发生了什么。

They didn't know what was happening.

当时流传着许多关于这是什么以及为什么会发生的阴谋论。

There were many conspiracy theories flying around about what it was and why it was happening.

所以我丈夫、我和一小群人成立了一个名为'拯救橄榄树'的小组织，最初只是为了传播信息，但我们现在的工作是筹集资金寻找对Xilella病毒有抵抗力且能产出优质橄榄油的新树种。与此同时，我们通过嫁接古树来努力为未来保存它们。

So my husband and I and a small group of people started a little organization called Save the Olives just really to disseminate information but what we do now is we raise funds to find new species of trees that are resistant to Xilella and produce great olive oil And parallel with that, we graft the ancient trees to try and save them for the future.

人们能听出你对这项事业的热忱。

People will hear the passion that you have for the cause.

我想知道这在多大程度上滋养了你现在对意大利那片土地的热情。

I wonder how much it feeds into the passion that you have now for that part of Italy.

就像你说的，你在那里安家已有许多年了。

I mean, as you say, you had a home there now for many years.

在多大程度上，你是因为意大利那个地区近年来对你变得如此重要，才产生这种感受的？

How much do you feel this because of the fact that that part of Italy has become so important to you in recent times?

我们受到了那个社区的欢迎。

We have been welcomed by that community.

我们感到与社区有着非常紧密的联系。

We feel very connected to the community.

当然，我们永远会是外来者，而我永远会是'那个崔西'，你知道的。

Of course, we will always be foreigners, and I will always be La Trice, you know.

那里就是崔西住的地方。

That's where La Trice lives.

但与此同时，我们也获得了高度的接纳。

But parallel with that comes a great level of acceptance.

趁此机会，我很想问问你——我是说，你最近非常忙碌。

While we have the opportunity, I was keen to ask you about I mean, you're very busy at the moment.

我看了你参与的项目清单，其中一个引起我注意的——我知道你谈论过它，凯特·温丝莱特当然也谈过，因为是她的项目——就是《告别六月》。

I read a list of things that you're in, and one that caught my eye, and I know you've spoken about it, and certainly Kate Winslet has because it's her project, is Goodbye June.

根据我读到的所有相关报道，你打破了自己关于角色类型的一条原则。

And according to everything I've read on that subject, you've broken one of your rules about the kinds of part you will play.

我读到你有两条原则：不演痴呆症患者，不演垂死之人，但你在《告别六月》里打破了第二条原则。

I read you had two rules that you wouldn't play someone with dementia and you wouldn't play someone who was dying, but you've broken rule number two with Goodbye June.

这个评价公平吗？

That a fair assessment?

这个评价很中肯。

It is a fair assessment.

我是说，确实有很多好角色。

I mean, there are great roles.

比如安东尼·霍普金斯在《困在时间里的父亲》中的表演。

You think of Anthony Hopkins in the Father' for example.

那真是一部了不起的作品。

I mean what an amazing piece of work that was.

别误会，为了好角色我愿意去任何地方做任何事。

And you know don't get me wrong, I'll go anywhere and do anything for a good role.

但这次更多是出于我对凯特的欣赏、喜爱和尊重。

But this was very much my appreciation of and my love for and my respect for Kate.

和她合作时，我能看出她具备导演的才能。

Working with her, I could see she had the director's chops, so to speak.

她说过这其实不是一部关于死亡的电影。

I mean, she said it's not a film actually about dying.

这是一部关于生活的电影，人们往往觉得它非常鼓舞人心。

It's a film about living, and people have tended to find it quite uplifting.

我想知道你在制作过程中是否也这样看待它。

I wonder if you saw it like that as you were making it.

非常认同。

Very much.

它讲述的是家庭的动态、问题、挑战以及爱。

It's about the dynamics and the problems and the challenges and the love of family.

你谈到过衰老，我对你使用‘激动人心’这个词印象颇深。

You've talked about ageing and I was rather struck by your use of the word thrilling.

我面前有一份7月的《晚邮报》，上面引用你的话说80岁是多么令人兴奋。

I've got an article from Corriere della Serra in front of me from July when you were quoted as saying how thrilling it is to be 80.

我听过许多与80岁这个数字搭配的形容词，但很少听到‘激动人心’。

And I've heard many adjectives alongside the figure of 80, not very often thrilling.

我想知道这种兴奋感从何而来

And I wonder where the thrill Well, came

不。

no.

我是说，活着本身就是件令人兴奋的事。

I mean, it is thrilling to be alive.

这很棒，你知道的。

It's great, you know.

这是人生漫长旅程的一部分。

It's a part of the long journey through one's life.

所以当然会让人感到兴奋。

And so of course it's exciting.

我刚在美国坐过自动驾驶汽车。

I mean I was just in America in a self driving car.

那种兴奋感简直无法形容。

I can't tell you how exciting that was.

就像打开了新世界的大门。

It's like mind blowing.

能活着见证这一切，我真是太高兴了。

I'm so glad I lived to witness that, you know.

当然，我们也会目睹可怕的悲剧和困境，但在我看来，生命就该尽可能长久地活下去。

You know there's also terrible tragedies that one witnesses and difficulties, but life is to be lived as long as you possibly can, it seems to me.

这是演员海伦·米伦对朱利安·沃里克说的。

Actress Helen Mirren speaking to Julian Warwicker.

以上就是我们今天的全部内容，但稍后还会有新一期的《全球新闻播客》。

And that's all from us for now, but there'll be a new edition of the Global News Podcast later.

如果您想对这期播客或其中涉及的话题发表评论，可以给我们发送电子邮件。

If you want to comment on this podcast or the topics covered in it, you can send us an email.

邮箱地址是globalpodcast@BBC.co.UK。

The address is globalpodcast@BBC.co.UK.

本期节目由汉娜·蒙哥马利混音，制作人是彼得·高芬和尼基·瓦雷科。

This edition was mixed by Hannah Montgomery, and the producers were Peter Goffin and Nicky Vareco.

编辑是凯伦·马丁。

The editor is Karen Martin.

我是保罗·莫斯。

I'm Paul Moss.

下次见。

Until next time.

再见。

Goodbye.