屏幕时间的另一种视角

本周，我邀请到了阿什·布兰登。阿什是一位教育家、研究员，也曾是中学教师，致力于帮助家庭重新思考屏幕时间问题。你可能在Instagram上以‘游戏玩家教育家’的身份认识阿什，他们分享实用工具，帮助家长不带羞耻或权力斗争地设定界限。令人兴奋的消息是，阿什的新书《开机》将于8月26日在各大书店上架。这次对话让我印象深刻，让我对自己在孩子屏幕时间问题上的一些触发点有了深刻理解。

This week, I'm joined by Ash Brandon. Ash is an educator, a researcher, and a former middle school teacher who's on a mission to help families rethink screen time. You might know Ash from Instagram as the gamer educator, where they share practical, tools to help parents set boundaries without shame or power struggles. And exciting news, Ash's brand new book Power On hits bookstores everywhere on August 26. This conversation really stuck with me and gave me so much insight into some of my own triggers around my own kids' screen time.

这是我和阿什讨论的内容之一。我迫不及待想让你们听到这段对话，因为我知道你们也会学到新东西，对屏幕时间的看法有所转变，并且在与孩子处理屏幕时间时感到更有力量，而不是充满内疚。我是贝基博士，这里是《内在美好》。广告后马上回来。说到学校零食，我从来不是那种会给孩子准备便携式熟食拼盘的家长。

That's one of the things Ash and I talk about. And I can't wait for you to hear this conversation because I know you will also learn something new, have a reframe for how you think about screen time, and also feel empowered to deal with screen time with your kids in a way that feels good instead of ridden with guilt. I'm doctor Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. When it comes to school snacks, I've never been the pack my kid, a portable charcuterie board kind of parent.

如果你是那样的家长，那真是了不起。我更倾向于即拿即走的类型。我想要一些简单、营养、在孩子出门时容易拿到的东西。这就是我喜欢Chomps的原因。他们的标准尺寸肉棒含有10克蛋白质且零糖分。

If you are, more power to you. I'm more of a grab and go type. I want something simple, nutritious, and easy for my kids to reach as we're heading out the door. That's why I like Chomps. Their full size meat sticks have 10 grams of protein and zero sugar.

它们既饱腹又由真实食材制成，让你少操一份心。如果你曾打开孩子的背包发现不知何时吃了一半的零食还裹在里面，Chomplings就太适合了。它们是小尺寸肉条，刚好能放进午餐盒或背包前侧小口袋，含有四克蛋白质且零糖分。Chomps采用优质原料制成，如100%草饲牛肉、鹿肉和无抗生素火鸡肉，同时不含九大常见过敏原，让你安心送孩子带去学校。

They're filling and made from real ingredients, so it's one less thing to think about. And if you've ever opened your kid's backpack to find a half eaten snack from who knows when still wrapped up in there, Chomplings are great. They're smaller sticks, the right size to toss in a lunchbox or that little front backpack pocket with four grams of protein and zero sugar. Chomps are made of high quality ingredients like a 100% grass fed beef, venison, and antibiotic free turkey. They're also free from the top nine allergens, so you don't have to worry about sending them to school.

前往chomps.com/doctorbecky查看所有规格和美味口味，可享15%折扣并免运费。网址是ch0mps.com/drbecky。嗨，Ash。嗨，真高兴你能来。

Check out all the sizes and delicious flavors at chomps.com/doctorbecky for 15% off plus free shipping. That's ch0mps.com/drbecky. Hi, Ash. Hi. I'm so excited to have you here.

能来到这里我太激动了。非常感谢。

I am so thrilled to be here. Thank you so much.

好的。我们要讨论很多不同的话题，屏幕时间、误解和重构。我知道你和我一样喜欢这些。但我在想这个时节。我感觉在夏秋交替之际，总能听到父母们的各种声音。

Okay. We're gonna talk about so many different things, screen time and misconceptions and reframes. I know you love all those things I do too. But I was thinking about the time of year. And I feel like I hear from parents in this kind of summer to fall transition all the time.

就像，我觉得夏天屏幕时间太多了，是时候该收紧了。就在这个时刻，我相信很多家长都有这个想法。那么，从家长的角度来看，该如何调整？收紧意味着什么？夏转秋期间，屏幕时间该怎么处理？说说你的看法。

Just like, I feel like I had a lot of screen time over the summer. Like it's time to tighten up. Just in this moment of time when I think that thought is in so many parents' heads. Like, where do you go from there in terms of even how parents are thinking about it, tightening up, what that means, summer to fall, screen time in general this time? Tell me your thoughts.

是的。我认为夏天是个可以更放松、更灵活的时期，然后我们意识到现实即将到来，哦，对了，又要进入学年和随之而来的各种事情。我觉得很多照顾者都想做好准备，以确保我们能够成功应对。在技术使用方面，我认为有时候思考一下之前哪些做法有效或无效是有帮助的。或者夏天里我们放松时出现的一些情况？

Yeah. I think summer is that wonderful time where we can get more relaxed and flexible, and then we see the coming reality of, oh, yeah, and then we have to go to the school year and all the things that that entails. And I feel like a lot of caregivers want to prepare so that we are setting ourselves up for success. And when it comes to things like technology, I think it is helpful sometimes to think about, well, what maybe was or wasn't working for us before? Or what are some things that maybe came up over the summer where we've relaxed a bit?

也许其中有些做法其实挺不错的，感觉很好。比如我们养成了家庭电影之夜的习惯，或者在沙发上吃晚餐时选一部电影，这确实是件很美好的事。也许我们可以继续保留这些。当然也有些事情我们知道，比如必须准时出门之类的。然后我们就要考虑，如果这是家庭的需求，我该如何确保我们在思考与屏幕的关系时，从家庭的实际需求出发？

Maybe there's some things with that that actually were kind of nice, maybe felt kind of good. Maybe we got in a routine of having a family movie night or eating dinner on the couch and we picked a movie, and actually it really was a lovely thing. Maybe that's something we can continue to incorporate. And then maybe there are things where we know, okay, but we still gotta get out of the door on time or something like that. And then we think about, okay, if that's the need of our family, how do I make sure that we're incorporating the need of our family and starting from that place when I'm thinking about our relationship with Scream?

是的。所以我想深入探讨一点，因为我觉得你立刻抓住了重点。我自己也经常遇到这种情况。就像在回答问题前先转换问题，特别是关于屏幕使用，总有很多疑问：多少算合适？多少算过量？

Yeah. So I just want to double click on something, because I do think you're right away doing something. I I think that happens for me a lot too. Like almost shifting the question before you answer it because I think especially with screens, there's just a lot of what's the right amount? What's the wrong amount?

什么是好的屏幕时间？什么是坏的屏幕时间？我们夏天用得太多了，需要减少。而你的观点是从不同角度切入——不是先问这些，而是关注家庭实际情况：你家现在是什么状况？

What's good screen time? What's bad screen time? We did too much in the summer. We need to cut back. And And I think what you're saying is you're starting not with those questions, but from something around like, what's going on in your family?

你的家庭需要什么？什么方式是有效的？这更像是从家庭需求出发的个性化方案。能详细说说这个思路吗？

What does your family need? What works? It's kind of a little more personalized or a little more focused on the family first. So can you just flesh that out a little?

当然。过去几年我在Instagram上专注这个话题时，提出了三大原则。第一，屏幕时间本质上是社会公平问题——这个话题我可以展开讲很久。第二，屏幕可以是我们生活的一部分而非中心，这其实是多数家庭对孩子的期望。第三，屏幕时间应该服务于整个家庭。

Absolutely. So when I've been doing this kind of focus on Instagram for the last few years, I've said that I have three main tenets. And first is that screen time is in many ways a social inequity issue, which I'm happy to come back to and drag out my soapbox. The second is that screens can be a part of our lives without being the center of our lives, which I think is what many families really want for their kids. And then the third is that screen time should work for the whole family.

我们需要考虑全家人的需求。虽然我们出于好意总把注意力放在孩子身上，担心屏幕对他们可能的影响，但现实中屏幕往往在帮助减轻成人的负担。这种情况很多时候难以避免——比如单亲家庭，或是照顾者需要轮班工作，独自承担育儿重任时，总需要辅助工具。

We should be considering the whole family. I think we often get kind of myopically focused on our kids, for good reason, right? We're thinking about what this could do to them, or how it could be helpful to them, and the reality is that in many ways, screen time is often functioning to help alleviate burden for adults. And a lot of that is not necessarily avoidable. If I'm a single parent, or I have a caregiver who is working swing shift, and so I'm alone for big chunks of my parenting, there are going to be things that need help.

当其他资源不可得时，屏幕就会填补这个空缺。我们当然希望有更好的替代方案，但现实是这些空缺确实存在。与其只关注「这对孩子有什么影响」，不如思考「这能让我为他们做些什么？」

Like, I need a tool that's going to help me lift that burden. And if I don't have other things available to me, something has to fill in that gap, and oftentimes it's going to be something like a screen. And we might wish that there's something else to fill in for that, and that I would as well. It's not great that we sometimes have these gaps. And if this is something that can fill in those gaps, then instead of focusing just on a child, sometimes it helps to instead think, okay, not what is this doing to my child, but what is it allowing me to do for them?

我认为这种思考能帮助我们明确屏幕使用的目的，以及它是否真正让全家受益。

And I think that that can often guide what the purpose of it is, and if it is working for all of us in the family.

我常听到家长说：我觉得孩子看屏幕太多，自己很失败，羞于启齿。这种羞耻感反而让我们无法做出改变——我们越想改变，羞耻感就越让我们裹足不前。所以你的观点让我想到：先把羞耻感放一边。

Well, of the things I hear a lot from parents is, okay, feel like my kid's on the screen too much, and then I feel like I'm such a bad parent, I'm so embarrassed, I don't want anyone to know. There's so much shame, right? And the irony also there is the things that we hold a lot of shame around, we actually can't even change. We might want to change them, but the shame keeps us so stuck. So what I'm responding into what you're saying is, let's put the shame to the side here.

在这个忙碌的世界里，屏幕能为家庭提供多种功能，不单关乎孩子。如果你想调整屏幕使用，不妨从「什么真正适合我的全家」出发，思考「怎样做能让我安心入睡」

Screens, you know, in our busy world can do a lot of different things for the family. It's not just about a kid. There's a lot going on. And maybe you do want to shift screen time, but thinking about it more from a place of what actually works for my whole family? What will I feel good about going to bed at night?

而不是纠结对错，或者邻居怎么做——不要带着审判的眼光来看待这个问题。

Not what's right, what's wrong, what's my neighbor doing, like, not from kind of such a place of judgment.

确实如此。我认为当我们出于恐惧行事时——是的，恐惧并不赋予力量。当我基于恐惧或羞耻感做决定时，我无法做出最佳选择。当我们专注于可能出错的情况，或者想着‘我需要尽可能减少这种情况，因为这才是我认为的健康方式’时。

Absolutely. And I think when we come from that place of fear Yeah. Fear is not empowering. I'm not going to make my best decisions when I'm acting out of fear or shame. And when we're focused on the potential of what could go wrong or thinking like, well, I need to minimize this as much as possible because that's what I am thinking of as healthy.

健康并不总是意味着最少化。没错。我们真正需要的是可持续的方式。同时我们也意识到，孩子们将在一个技术驱动的世界中长大成人，这个世界甚至可能是我们无法完全理解的，对吧？

Healthy doesn't always mean minimal. Yeah. And really what we want is something sustainable. And we also recognize that our kids are going to grow up to be adults in a technologically driven world that we can't even really fully comprehend, I think. Right?

这个世界将与我们现在的世界更加不同，技术驱动程度更高。所以我们的目标其实是确保培养出具备数字素养、能保障数字安全的孩子。如果我们从恐惧的角度出发，这很难实现。如果我能以中立的态度看待技术，就能给予孩子力量，让他们与技术建立长期有益的关系。我认为这非常重要，但对很多人来说也很困难，因为正如你所说，他们会把孩子的屏幕时间与自己的育儿价值成反比挂钩。

It's gonna be even different than the world that we're in, and how technologically driven it is. So really our goal is to also make sure that we're raising kids who are digitally literate and can be digitally safe. And that's hard to do if we are framing these things from a place of fear. I can give my kid and empower my child to have a relationship with technology that might work for them long term if I'm able to view them with a sense of neutrality. I think that that is really important, and I think that's very difficult for a lot of people because they associate, as you said, the amount of screen time that their kid has, it has an inverse relationship with their value as a parent.

如果孩子经常使用电子设备，家长可能会想：这是糟糕的育儿方式。也许这对我有好处，但我不该这么做，我应该优先考虑孩子。但问题又回到了——这允许了什么？它允许什么样的家庭生活状态存在？

If their kid is on screens a lot, then they might think, this is bad parenting. It might be benefiting me, but I shouldn't be doing that. I should be prioritizing my child. But that's where it comes back to what is it allowing? What is it allowing to have happen in our family?

那么我们来具体讨论几个场景。比如从那些说‘好吧，我可能没有严厉评判自己，但我觉得必须安排好学习作息’的家长开始——我举个虚构的例子：我的孩子在暑假里每天早晨都是从几小时的屏幕时间开始的。

So let's go through a few kind of scenarios. Like, let's get specific. So let's start with the parent who's saying, okay, maybe I'm not even judging myself hardcore, but I just think we've gotta get school routines in order. You know, my kid I'm making this up. But my kid starts their day with hours on the screen in the summer.

还行吧，顺其自然。显然当我们必须在7:30、6:45、8:00或其他时间出门时，这套方法就行不通了。而且我很紧张，比如我改变规则时孩子们会抓狂。我该怎么处理这种情况呢？

It's been fine, it is what it is. It's obviously not gonna work when we have to get out the door at 07:30, 06:45, 08:00, whatever it is. And I'm nervous. Like, my kids freak out when I change the rules. And how do I go about that?

我们该怎么开始？

How do we start?

是的，在我即将出版的新书中，最后三分之一的内容专门帮助家庭建立适合他们的生活框架，并详细讲解了这个过程。但你已经提到了其中一些要点。首先我们要考虑需求是什么？如果需求是必须在7:45前出门，这可能直接决定了早上是否能有屏幕时间。

Yeah, so in my book that's coming out, have the kind of last third is really devoted to really helping families make a structure that's going to work for them, and kind of walks through this process. But you already outlined some of what will go into it. So first we think about, okay, what's the need? And if the need is, we have to be out the door by 07:45, then that might already determine whether or not screens are gonna happen in the morning. Yeah.

也许我们知道孩子7:15才勉强起床，所以早上根本没时间。或者他们可能起得很早，时间就很充裕。明确了需求后，我们就可以问：孩子能为此提供什么建议？我认为这非常重要。无论年龄大小，人们都希望自己能参与涉及自身的决策。

Maybe we know, well, my kid can barely get out of bed by 07:15, so I don't really think there's time in there. Or maybe they are a super early riser, and there would be. And so, if we know, okay, that's the need, then we can ask ourselves, what input can I let my child contribute to this? And I think that is so important. People, regardless of age, we want to feel like we're contributing to a decision that involves us.

这并不意味着我们要完全听从孩子。但如果他们觉得自己有发言权，意见被倾听和考虑，这将大大有助于制定出他们愿意遵守的规则或界限。所以...

And that doesn't mean that we are necessarily guiding it. But if we feel like we have some agency and some input, and we're being listened to or considered, it's gonna go a long way to, I think, making a rule or a boundary that's going to have some buy in. So I

我想没人喜欢被强迫做事的感觉。无论多大年纪，没人喜欢这样，对吧？但界限在哪里呢？什么是建议，什么是把家长的责任推给孩子，让他们替我做决定？举个例子，假设你家孩子需要在7:45前出门，而你决定早上不能有屏幕时间。具体该怎么实施呢？

think no one likes feeling done to. Nobody likes that at any age, right? But what is that line between, okay, what is input, what is giving my kid my job, you know, and ask them to do my job for me? So let's just take this scenario. Let's say you have a kid out the door by 07:45, let's say this kid, you you decide screen time in the morning is not gonna end up What's being the nitty gritty, how should we go about that?

根据他们给出的反馈来调整。比如明确底线：我们必须在7:45前出门，这点没得商量。早上哪怕晚45秒都可能毁掉整个早晨的节奏。如果这是硬性要求，我会直接表明现实情况——这意味着早晨离家前不能使用电子设备，虽然这确实与众不同。

With the input that they give, so if it's, you know what, my need is we're out the door by seven five, this is sort of my non negotiable. We can't suddenly leave at eight. And oftentimes in the morning, it's like if we're at seven forty five and forty five seconds, that can throw off. The whole morning, right? And so if that's the need and that's the non negotiable, then I might be leading with that, in terms of this is the reality, and that means that screens are not going be available before we leave in the morning, and I know that's different.

然后给他们一些自主决定的空间。比如让他们决定白天什么时候可以玩，或者放学后具体怎么安排。通过让他们参与决策，孩子会感觉'这部分是我能掌控的'。

And then give them something that they can help determine. So then think about, okay, well, when in the day could it be, and what could be up to them? And if it is, well, once we get home, it actually could be whenever, then maybe we let them be the person who makes that decision. So that then they're feeling like, okay, this is what I can immediately guide and have input in.

开学两周后总会有个瞬间让我恍惚：暑假不是才过去五分钟吗？突然又回到了打包午餐、签同意书、每天早晨找不成对袜子的混乱中。所以我提前规划秋假安排，避免长周末变成被困在家带三天孩子的煎熬。我的快速逃离方案？预订爱彼迎——既有家的舒适又能重启生活。

There's always a moment, maybe two weeks into the school year, where I stop and think, wait. Wasn't summer just five minutes ago? Suddenly, we're back in the rush of packing lunches, signing permission slips, struggling to find a pair of matching socks every morning, and that's why I've started looking ahead to fall breaks now before the long weekend creeps up on me and feels less like a break and more like being stuck at home for three days with three kids. My go to for a quick getaway, booking an Airbnb. It's a reset that still feels like home.

孩子们有游戏玩具，客厅够全家看电影，他们甚至觉得双层床比家里舒服多了。话说你有没有想过，自己外出时也可以把房子挂爱彼迎？既能赚外快补贴旅行、文具或下季球鞋开支，又能让别人享受你的家。你房子的价值可能超乎想象，上airbnb.com/host查查看吧。

Games and toys for the kids, a big living room for family movie nights, and even bunk beds that kids claim are way better than our beds at home. Plus, do you ever think about how you can host your own home on Airbnb for another family to enjoy while you're away? It's a great way to earn a little extra income to put toward your own trip, school supplies, or next season's cleats. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host.

很多时候我们改变育儿规则——比如调整屏幕时间——会让孩子觉得天塌了。其实我们常在不自觉中让孩子帮我们做决定。我要特别强调这点，因为我以前也这样。

So many times, I think the decisions we're making as a parent are changes in rules, like a change in screen time rules. They they feel like they can go south. They feel like it's a disaster. I think a lot of the times, we're almost asking our kid to, like, help us make that decision. And so I'll voice it over, because I definitely used to do this too.

别人总说我演技好，其实根本不用演——我以前就爱自言自语说这些。比如开学时我会说：'你看早上不看屏幕是不是比较好？这样不会太赶对吧？'

So people always think I'm a good actress. I'm like, that's complicated. I just used to say these things myself. There's no acting required. So, hey, look, we're starting school.

通过自己孩子和其他家庭的案例，我发现这种提问方式会让孩子无所适从。而家长常误解为'孩子趁机钻空子'，其实不是的。

Don't you think it's gonna be a good idea to not have screens in the morning because it'll be rushed? And don't you think it would be better? And I've seen for my own kids and then working with families, how dysregulating that is for kids. And then I think parents, the language we have is, yeah, because then my kid takes advantage. No.

这就好比飞行员问我：'你觉得要不要紧急迫降？'我肯定懵：'你认真的吗？'

It's kind of like my pilot saying, don't you think we should make an emergency landing? I'd be like, are you seriously asking

问我这个？

me that?

直接做决定就好。然后我或许能根据这个决定来反应——比如是否要退款，或者改签航班。但别让我参与一个本不该由我做的决定。所以我想你是在说，让我先确认下是否理解正确：作为父母，如果你有不可妥协的原则，花点时间明确它，然后直接以此为主导。

Just make the decision. And then I maybe can have a reaction about whether I want, I don't know, a refund, or if I want to change my flight. But don't involve me in a decision that really isn't my domain. And so I think what you're saying is, I just want to reflect back, make sure I'm getting it right. If you have a non negotiable as a parent, take some time, figure out what that is, and then lead with that.

因为你仍然可以让孩子有自主权，但这样就不会混淆自主权的边界。完全同意。而我...

Because you can still let your kid have agency, but now there's no confusion about where that agency lies. Absolutely. And what I

觉得特别有趣的是，这种设定明确边界或规则（或叫不可妥协项，随你怎么称呼）的框架，其实正是电子游戏的运作方式。也就是说...

think is so funny is that that framework of having some very clear boundaries or rules or non negotiables, whatever word you want to use, that really is how video games work. Which is

哦，详细说说。

Oh, tell me more.

比如想想看...

So think about

我感觉现在像是进入了...不是《黑客帝国》，但像是关于对话的元对话。你...

I feel like now I'm in, know that, not The Matrix, but this is like meta conversation about the conversation. Have

玩过电子游戏吗？任何类型的都行。

you played a video game before? Of any kind.

这让我自曝其短了。很暴露水平对吧。我确实...没怎么玩过电子游戏。

I feel This is the shame myself. It's very revealing. I know. I am not, I have not really played that many videos.

但《吃豆人》总玩过吧？

But have you played Pac Man?

当然当然，那肯定玩过。

Yeah yeah yeah, of course. Okay, of course.

世事难料。那么好吧，这个例子合适吗？是的，你在玩《吃豆人》。

You never know. So okay, is that a good example to use? Yeah, So you're playing Pac Man.

《超级马里奥》，就像以前那个马里奥？哦对。哦，就是最原始的那种，嘟嘟嘟嘟。

For Super Mario, like back in the day Mario? Oh yeah. Oh, like original like, do do do do.

没错。很好，明白了。你现在在玩《马里奥》，对吧？你注意到有砖块和带问号的方块，对吧？然后你通过尝试来弄清楚会发生什么。

Yeah. Great, okay. So you're playing Mario, right? And you notice that there's the brick blocks and the little question blocks, right? And you figure out what happens by testing them.

所以你走过去，在小马里奥状态下跳起来顶砖块，它只是上下移动。但当你以小马里奥状态顶问号方块时，会得到金币或星星之类的奖励，对吧？这样你就在学习关卡的设定，掌握游戏规则。

So you go up and you jump under the brick block, and when you're tiny Mario, and it just moves up, It moves back down. But then you go to the question mark block as tiny Mario, and you get a coin, or a star, whatever happens, right? So you're learning the conditions of the level, you're learning the rules.

然后了解这个世界的运作方式。是的。

Then Learning how the world works. Yes.

然后你获得了一朵成长蘑菇，变得更大，接着你发现，哦，如果我用大马里奥的状态顶砖块，它就会碎掉。作为玩家，你会反复测试这些机制以确保它们如预期般稳固。举个例子，假设每100次顶砖块中，有1次砖块不会碎，而是随机——比如直接把你传送到关卡终点，你会怎么做？你会站在那块砖下，不断跳跃直到触发这个结果。因为现在存在可能性了，对吧？电子游戏非常擅长设定这些不可协商的规则。

And then you get your one up mushroom, and you get bigger, and then you learn that, oh, if I hit bricks as big Mario, then it will break, And you test these over and over again to make sure as a player that they are what they say they are, that they're sturdy. And if, for example, if one out of every 100 times that you jumped under one of those brick blocks, if instead of breaking, it would randomly, I don't know, warp you to the end of the level, what would you do? You would stand under that, and you would jump as many times as you need to to get that outcome. Because now there's a chance, right? So video games are very good at laying out the sort of non negotiables.

这是墙，这是关卡，这是世界边界，这是角色会说的话。但在这些规则框架内，你的行动拥有极大自由。你可以做任何规则允许的事——想站着不动也行，想冲出世界边缘也行，想测试规则也行。但我认为，给孩子设立规则和边界能提供这样的认知：这是我们所在的世界，这些是你可以依赖的法则，无论你是否喜欢，明白吗？

Here's the walls, here's the levels, here's the edge of the world, here's what the characters will say. But then what you do within those rules gives you a lot of freedom. You can do whatever you want within those rules. If you want to stand and do nothing, if you want to run off the edge of the world, if you want to test them, you can. But I feel like rules and boundaries for kids provide that sense of, here's the world we're in, here are the things that you can count on, whether or not you like that, right?

有时我们不喜欢游戏或现实中的既定规则，但至少我们清楚：我的自由存在于这些框架之内。而正是这种认知赋予了我们充分的能动性和自主权。

Sometimes we don't like the rules that are presented to us in a game or in real life. But then we know, okay, so my freedom is within these things. And there's a lot of agency and a lot of autonomy that comes from that.

我觉得这个表述太精妙了。这还让人联想到——比如在《超级马里奥》里，小时候的我可能够不着砖块或顶不碎它对吧？就算我以小马里奥的状态反复尝试，砖块也不会生气，不会说'拜托啊马里奥'。

I think that is so beautifully stated. And the thing about it that it also makes you think about is, let's say, in Super Mario, right? Where when I'm little, I'm not gonna maybe be able to reach the bricks or break it, right? Where if I try over and over and I'm little try, the bricks bricks aren't like getting mad at me. The bricks aren't like, come on, Mario.

它们不会抱怨'够了，为什么老这样马里奥？'砖块就是砖块，它们仿佛在说：我清楚自己的规则。小马里奥爱顶多少次都行，反正什么都不会发生。

Come on. Why you keep doing this, Mario? Like, the bricks are just the bricks. They're like, I kinda know my rule. And like, little Mario can press me as many times as little Mario wants, and nothing's gonna happen.

他们不喜欢这些砖块，别往心里去。

They don't like the bricks don't take it personally.

千真万确。是的。我太高兴你注意到这一点了。是的。电子游戏始终如一且中立地执行规则。

Thousand percent. Yes. The I'm so glad you picked up on that. Yes. The video game enforces the rules consistently, but neutrally.

对吧？所以你可以随心所欲地破坏规则或尝试破坏规则，游戏不会责备你，也不会说‘我们得告诉你多少次？别再做这种事了。这不是你该做的，明白吗？’而这种情况下反而有种自由感。

Right? So you can do all that rule breaking or attempted rule breaking as many times as you want, and the game is not going to admonish you, and it's not going to be like, how many times do we have to tell you? Stop trying this. This is not what you're supposed to be doing, right? And there is freedom in that.

这其中有种自主感。通过测试来确认这一点很重要。作为一个至今仍玩游戏的人，如果我在游戏中和角色对话，我至少会和他们对话三次以确保听完了所有台词。等他们开始重复时，我就知道可以停止对话了，因为我已经确认获取了全部信息——但这些都是通过测试学会的。

There is a sense of autonomy in that. And being able to test that just to make sure. And I will say as someone who still plays video games in my life, if I'm talking to a character in the game, I will talk to them at least three times to make sure that I've heard everything they're gonna say. And then once they start looping, I think, okay, I can stop talking to them now, because I've made sure I've exhausted all the information, but I learn that by testing. Yeah.

显然，在电子游戏里这么做比现实中当父母要有趣得多。

And that's obviously, that's more fun in a video game than it is when you're the parent. In real

生活。没有奖励。

life. No prizes.

不，不。是硬币。对，而且没有电，也没有。

No, no. Coins. Yeah, and there's no power and No.

知道。我常说的一个观点是，我经常思考界限问题，我觉得人们对我有种无意识的幻想，认为我会走到孩子面前，比如现在是屏幕时间结束的时候，你可以不高兴。然后我的孩子会说，妈妈，你真是个坚定的领导者，我真的很爱你。

Know. One of the things I always say is I think about boundaries a lot, and I think people have some unconscious fantasy for me that I go over to my kids, and let's say it is screen time. Screen time is over, and you're allowed to be upset. And my kid's like, mom, you are such a sturdy leader. I really love you.

你现在做得太棒了。2枚硬币。这从没发生过。不。通常你一开始得到的奖励是孩子发脾气。

You're really crushing it right now. 2 coins. It's never happened. No. You usually get rewarded with a tantrum at first.

那通常就是奖励。就像，你知道，为什么？对。懂吧？不过久而久之，如果你相对保持一致（虽然没人能始终如一），那些反应就会减少，因为孩子潜意识里会想：世界就是这样运作的，我现在明白了。

That's usually the reward. Like, you know, why? Yeah. You know? Although over time, if you are relatively consistent, none of us are all the time, then those reactions decrease because on some level your kid thinks, this is how the world works, I got it now.

我将继续测试下一个项目。

I'll move on to the next one to test.

确实如此，那种一致性的感觉是存在的。是的。但这并不一定意味着他们喜欢这样。而且我们也知道——这是我常听你说的——我经常将电子游戏或科技与食物进行类比。我经常思考食物分配责任模型，即父母或成年人掌控着

Exactly, right, there's that feeling of consistency. Yes. And that doesn't necessarily mean they like it. And we also know, and I know this is something you say a lot, is I do a lot of comparisons between video games or technology and food. And I think a lot about the division of responsibility model with food, a parent or an adult is in control of

艾伦·萨德勒的。艾伦·萨德勒，

Ellen Sadler's. Ellen Sadler,

对。决定哪些食物可用以及何时可用，对吧？而孩子决定吃多少以及选择哪些食物。其实对待屏幕时间也应如此。成年人决定哪些内容可用及何时可用，孩子则在允许的范围内自主选择——可能意味着他们会用那半小时做些荒唐事来试探规则边界。

yeah. Of what is available and when, right? And a child decides how much to eat and what's available. Well, really think about screens the same way. An adult decides what content is available and when, and a child decides what to do within the content that is allowed, which might mean they're doing something ridiculous for that half hour because they're testing a rule.

但我认为另一个重要部分是，孩子的任务也包括对此产生情绪反应。是的。而且他们非常擅长这部分工作。

But I think the other part that's really important is that a child's job is also to have feelings about it. Yeah. And they're really good at that part of their job.

确实如此，似乎每一代人都在这方面有所进步。情绪表达的范围越来越广。不，不。这确实是事实。

They really, it seems like every generation we're getting a little better. It's a lot a lot of range of feelings. No. No. It it really is true.

你看，无论是屏幕时间还是其他界限问题，其中一个认知重构就是：当你意识到孩子强烈的情绪反应，实际上标志着刚刚设立了界限。因为有些家长知道设定界限对我来说很难，我正在努力。事实如此。如果世界能这样运转就太棒了——当我艰难地设定界限后，能得到金币、独角兽、彩虹和冰淇淋甜筒。

And look, you know, one of the reframes, whether we're talking about screen time or anything else with boundaries, is when you realize your kid's big feelings are actually a sign you just set a boundary. Because some parents know it's hard for me to set boundaries, and I'm working on setting boundaries. And it is true. It would be amazing if the world worked where it's hard for me to set a boundary. So when I set a boundary, I get coins and unicorns and rainbows and an ice cream cone.

但这不会发生。不过有个信号总是好的。所以如果你开始意识到孩子的抱怨、牢骚或抗议——虽然不是我想要的信号——但这确实标志着我刚刚设定了界限。我认为这更可能被解读为你在履行职责的迹象，而非做错事的征兆，对吧？

That doesn't happen. But having a signal is helpful. So if you start realizing my kid's whining and complaining or protesting, it's not the it's not the sign I would choose, but it is a sign that I just set a boundary. It's I think it's less likely you interpret it as a sign you're doing something wrong, and actually a sign you're doing your job, right?

是的。我认为科技产品，尤其是电子屏幕，带来的感受略有不同。对许多家长而言，在那个时刻，我们心理上可能已经在挣扎：我该允许这个吗？我该同意吗？我担心可能产生的后果。

Yes. And I think with technology, and particularly with screens, I think it hits a little bit differently. Think for a lot of parents, is in that moment, I think we're in that place mentally where we might already be wrestling with, should I even allow this? Should I have said yes to this? I'm worried about what it might do.

而如果最后他们还在抗议，我们很自然地会想——至少我会这样想——你大脑的某个部分会说：我允许了这些，你该感到高兴才对。

And then if at the end they're protesting, we reasonably are thinking like, there's that part of your brain, or at least my brain, that's you should be happy I said it all.

百分之百同意。难道你就不能用你的顺从减轻我的内疚吗？对。是吧？说真的？

A 100%. Like, can you not assuage my guilt with your compliance? Yeah. Right? Like, for real?

这不正是我孩子应该做的吗？

Isn't that what my kid's supposed to do?

而且，如果我们再深入分析，比如在其他场景下——在游乐场、游泳池、朋友家，孩子因为不想离开而发脾气抗议时，我们大概不会责怪游乐场，不会责怪游泳池。你知道的，一个该死的游泳池。

And also, it's like, okay, if we peel that back too, it's like, okay, if we were in another scenario, if we were at a playground, at a pool, at a friend's house, and they protested our tantrum because they didn't want to leave, we probably wouldn't blame the playground. We probably wouldn't blame the pool. You know, a freaking pool.

那些 还有我们是否也

Those And are we also

大概不会说‘我们永远不能再来这个游乐场了’。相反，我们能够看透媒介。是的。

probably would not say, well, we can't come to this playground ever again. Like, we we instead are able to look through the medium Yeah.

并看到技能 没错。

And see the skill Yes.

然后明白，好的。所以离开好玩的地方很难，中途停下来很难。无论背后的情绪是什么。是的。

And see, okay. So it it's hard to leave fun places. It's hard to stop in the middle of things. Whatever the the underlying feeling is. Yes.

这往往是孩子们在科技产品上遇到困难时的真实情况。由于我们可能对科技产品有自己的联想——比如‘我不该这样做’、‘这么做就是坏家长’——这种想法就会占据上风。所以我经常强调保持中立，因为中立不意味着放任自流。对吧？

And that's often what's happening when kids are having a hard time on technology. And because we might have our own association with that that technology, like, I shouldn't be doing this. I am a bad parent if I do this, then that kind of supersedes. And that's why I talk so much about having neutrality because when we can be neutral, that doesn't mean it's a free for all. Right?

就像薯片在道德上是中性的，西兰花也是，我们可以按不同分量或频率提供。我们对科技产品的态度也可以类似——当我能够中立看待时，就能将其与孩子生活的其他方面比较，看到技能的迁移。

Like, chips are neutral morally, and broccoli is neutral morally, and we can offer them in different amounts or with different frequencies. And we can be similar with how we think about technology because when I can think about it neutrally, then I can also make comparisons to other parts of my kid's life and see the skill and how it transfers.

我是认真的。这真是为讨论增添了一个绝妙的维度。我从未这样思考过。感觉这是对话中让我印象深刻的部分——这个观点如此真实，我会一直记着。

I really mean this. I that is it's such a brilliant layer to add to this. I I haven't ever thought about that before. So I feel like that's one part of this conversation. I'm just gonna stick with me that it is so true.

我们的孩子会在屏幕时间结束时闹情绪。当我们说他们不能吃第三勺冰淇淋（如果他们已吃过或无论什么规则）时，他们会不高兴。孩子们确实会闹情绪。有时他们甚至会在

Our kids get upset at the end of screen time. Our kids get upset when we say they can't have a third ice cream scoop if they had or whatever the rule is. Our kids get upset exactly. Sometimes they get upset when

我们答应了他们刚提出的要求时发脾气

we say yes to the thing they just asked us

确实如此。这再次说明这一代孩子特别擅长表达情绪。而在这些情况下，我们很少意识到——可能是因为没有被我们自身的矛盾、愧疚或内心叙事所复杂化——结束有趣的事情总是很难。停止你想继续做的事真的非常困难。

for. That is very true. It's again, it's the being so good at feelings in this generation. And so rarely in those situations, probably because it's not so complicated by our own set of conflicts or guilt or narrative, that we are more likely to realize it is so hard to end things that are fun. It is so hard to stop things that you want to keep doing.

让人愉悦的事物永远难以感到满足，对吧？但对于电子屏幕，我们总是脱口而出诸如‘再也不许玩了’、‘我要扔掉你的iPad’、‘这太糟糕了’、‘我就知道会这样’、‘我是个糟糕的家长’之类的话。你说得对，这确实与我们长期自我灌输的叙事有关。如果我们能将其视为‘结束有趣的事情本就困难’——这对四岁和四十四岁的人都适用。

It is so hard for something that's enjoyable to ever feel like enough, right? But with screens, we are so quick to rattle off. Like we're never doing this again, I'm throwing away your iPad, this is bad, I knew it, and I'm a horrible parent, I think you're so right that that has to do with what we've been telling ourselves in our narrative. And if we do see it, as again, it's always hard to end things that are fun. That's true for four year olds and 44 year olds.

完全正确。人类本来就不擅长渴望某物却得不到，而且我也不确定我们是否真该擅长这个。你只需要具备在社会中正常运作的能力，但清楚自己的欲望是件好事。

Absolutely. Right? Like, one I think humans are just never that good at wanting things and not having them. And I don't know if we ever wanna be that good at them. You wanna be good enough to function in society, but it's good to know what you want.

是啊。这驱动着你，对吧？嗯。而且我认为这也是部分原因。

Yeah. It drives you. Right? Mhmm. And also and I think this is part of it too.

享受闲暇本身没有错。对于屏幕时间、电子游戏或其他被动休闲活动——就它们的‘产出效率’而言——我们可能会觉得‘他们本可以把时间用在更有意义的事情上’。但纯粹为了休闲而休闲同样合理。每个人都值得拥有这种权利，包括我们的孩子。

It's okay to have leisure, be leisure. And I think with something like screens or video games or more passive activities in terms of, like, their product productivity rate, I think we might look at that and go, well, but they could have been doing something better with their time. But leisure for the sake of leisure is also valid. Yeah. And everybody deserves that, and that includes our kids.

好吧，现在这个问题完全偏离了我的提问清单——就当这些不存在吧。但你刚刚触发了我某个记忆点。我永远忘不了多年前和心理咨询师的对话：当时我抱怨周日带孩子回家后精疲力尽（因为我们常周末出游），累得不行。

Okay. So now this is like this is like not on my questions, like, throw these out. But you just, you know, brought something up in me. I'll never forget talking to my therapist years ago. And I was talking about coming home with our kids, being exhausted on Sundays, because we often would travel for the weekend, and so tired.

孩子们各自去玩，我丈夫躺在沙发上放松。我对咨询师说：‘他是不是有问题？我不理解。这里有太多需要剖析的东西了，实在太多了。’

And, you know, my kids would go off and do their thing, and my husband would be on the couch chilling for a little bit. I was just telling my therapist, something's wrong with him? Like, I don't understand. Like, there's so much to unpack. There's so much to unpack.

我就是不明白。然后我们当然会吵架。咨询师那句‘我认为你需要他的帮助’让我永生难忘，而我当时的反应是：‘是啊，我知道。’

And like like, I I don't get it. And like and then we get in a fight, of course. And I'll never forget my therapist saying, I think you need his help. And I was like, yeah. I know.

然后他说，让我说完。他说，我觉得你需要他帮忙坐在沙发上。真的，就像，我觉得你没听清。他是在记录你的秘密吗？是的。

And he goes, let me finish. He goes, I think you need his help sitting on the couch. Literally, like, I don't think you heard me. Is he penning your secret? Yeah.

真的，这到底是怎么回事？因为，你看。不。他需要帮我。而他却说，你听起来真的很累。

Like, literally, like, what the fresh heck is happening? Because, like, you no. No. He needs to help me. And he's like, you sound really tired.

某种形式的休息不是奖励。而且，如果我要直说的话，我觉得你这么激动是因为有一部分你想要坐在沙发上，却不知道如何允许自己这样做。我们有什么约定吗？为什么总是回到我们身上？但我想这是否都和我看到孩子们时的感受有关？

And some version of rest is not a reward. And also, if I'm gonna be direct, I think you're so triggered because there's a part of you that wants to sit on the couch and you don't know how to give yourself permission. Was do have catch? Why does it always come back to us? But I think is this all connected to like when I see my kids?

你会说，这确实有关联。

You're like, it is connected.

嗯，继续说吧，因为我想...

Well, keep going because I'm I want to

感觉你可以读书，可以做艺术，我们完成这个？来玩个家庭桌游吧。我确实喜欢桌游。只是...我很难保持中立。自从你提到这个词后我就没再想过。

feel like you could be reading like you could be doing art like, we finish this? Let's play a family board game. I do love board games. And like, I just it's hard for me to it's hard for me to stay neutral. I haven't thought about that word since you've been saying it.

我很难保持中立。

It's hard for me to stay neutral.

是的。我确实没完全像你这样思考过。我常从我们赋予自身育儿能力或作为父母价值的压力角度考虑。我们都想为孩子做正确的事，永远给他们最好的，这很高尚，不是坏事。

Yeah. I hadn't really thought of it quite in the terms that you have. I often think of it from the kind of weight that we put on our own parenting ability or our goodness as a parent. And I think we want to do right by our kids, and we want to always be doing the best for our kids, and that is a noble thing. That's not a bad thing.

所以当孩子玩iPad或看电影时，我们会用所有能想到的更有价值的事来对比。这就是为什么有句话说'想想屏幕时间替代了什么'，我很反感这种说法，因为如果你先入为主认为屏幕有害，就会用所有'更好的活动'来填充那个替代选项。比如他们可以玩桌游而非电子游戏，可以读纸质书而非屏幕文字。

And so if our kids are doing something like using their iPad or watching a movie, we kind of put into that all the things we can think of that we think hold more value. This is a reason that there's a phrase of like, think about what is screen time replacing, and I have taken a lot of umbrage with this phrase, because if you're coming from a place of thinking of screens as bad, you're going to fill that, what they could be doing instead, with every single thing that you can think of that would be better. Right? And it might maybe that's you know, they could be playing a board game instead of a video game. They could be reading a book instead of reading the words on the screen.

你会列出一长串替代方案。这说明我们没把屏幕视为工具，没保持中立态度。我认为这很大程度上源于我们对自己的评判——如果孩子纯粹为了娱乐做某事（这本身合理），我们却觉得像是在纵容他们。

They could be you're going to come up with this litany of things. And so it really means like, well, then we're not thinking of it as like a tool. We're not thinking of it in this neutral place. And I think it's a big part of our own judgment of ourselves of feeling like, well, if they're doing this and they're just doing it for fun, which is a valid reason to do it, but if they're just doing it for fun, it's almost as if we're condoning it.

是的。我想我差不多就是那样。我现在正在思考这个问题突然浮现出来。有人说这像是对懒惰的恐惧，或者它会占据并排挤其他事情。而我觉得你说的像是把屏幕放在一边，思考我们与休息、纯粹乐趣以及那些不被定义为'对结果有产出'的事物的关系。

Yeah. Like, I guess I have almost like that. I'm just thinking about now it's coming up for me. Some say it's like a fear of laziness or it's like gonna, you know, take over and crowd out the other stuff. And I think what you're saying is like just putting screens aside, like what is our relationship with rest, with just fun, with something that's not quote productive toward an outcome?

因为如果我们作为成年人知道自己存在某些问题，这很可能会在我们处理孩子屏幕时间的方式上有所体现。

Because if we know as an adult that we have some stuff there, that'll probably act itself out a little bit in how we approach screen time with kids.

对，完全正确。在涉及孩子生活的方方面面时，我们确保他们接触许多事物，但这并不意味着毫无条件，也不代表没有规则、引导或界限，对吧？就像一天中有许多中性时刻，比如洗澡时间，但我们也不会让孩子在浴缸里泡六个小时。对吧？

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And involving something in our kids' lives, we have so many parts of our kids' lives that we make sure they get exposed to, and that doesn't mean that they are just unconditional, and that there's no rules or guidance or boundaries around those things, right? Like, we have many neutral parts of the day, like bath time, but we also wouldn't let our kids stay in the bathtub for six hours. Right. Right?

我们大概也不会让他们独自决定这类事情。这种中立性让我们思考：如果我们希望孩子将科技或屏幕视为生活的普通部分，不必过度关注，那我们就该用平常心对待。这不代表它们要像阅读、洗澡或家庭时间那样随时可用，但我们可以在框架上保持中立。这也让父母或看护人更容易坚守界限，因为我们卸下了可能背负的情感包袱。

And we also probably wouldn't let them be the only person to guide that decision. So that neutrality piece allows us to think, well, okay, if we want our kids to think of technology or screens as being just another part of their lives, and it's not a huge deal, and they don't need to obsess over them, then we have to treat them like not a big deal. And that doesn't mean they're available as much as reading or bath time or family time, but we can still be neutral in the framing around them. And that also makes it a lot easier as the parent or the caregiver to hold that boundary because we've sort of removed the emotional weight that we might have been holding around it.

如果你和我一样，正在为孩子的暑期活动点子发愁。现在有个让所有父母兴奋的消息——Good Inside刚刚与培乐多品牌和沃尔玛合作，推出视频系列，教你如何通过开放式游戏帮助孩子培养想象力、自信心和抗挫力等终身技能。最棒的是，我保证这不会给忙碌的父母增添负担——无需长时间准备。

If you're anything like me, you are running out of summer activity ideas with your kids. Well, exciting news for parents everywhere. Good Inside just teamed up with the Play Doh brand and Walmart to bring you a video series on how to help kids build lifelong skills like imagination and confidence and frustration tolerance all through open ended play. And the best part, I promise, this isn't another thing to add to your already packed plate as a parent. No hours of prep.

不需要完美布景，只需一两罐培乐多。前往walmart.com/playdoh观看视频。链接是walmart.com/playdoh。等不及想听听你家孩子会创造什么了。

No need for picture perfect setups. All you need is a Play Doh can or two. Head to walmart.com/playdoh to watch the videos. That's walmart.com/playdoh. I can't wait to hear what your kid creates.

也许这个问题过于简单——但真的存在'屏幕时间过多'这回事吗？这种情况存在吗？

So maybe this is like an overly simplistic question. But is there a such thing as too much screen time? Would it be like that is a thing?

是的。这取决于你如何定义。许多研究不同时长影响、量化游戏或屏幕使用问题关系的文献，通常将'过度使用'定义为每天四小时以上。但具体定义因研究而异——可能特指电子游戏，也可能涵盖各类屏幕使用。

Yeah. Yeah. So depends kind of how you want to define that. A lot of the research literature that looks at impacts of different amounts and quantifies things like more problematic relationships with gaming or screen time, they tend to define excessive use as generally four or more hours per day. But even that depends on the study you're reading, they might be talking about just playing a video game, they might be talking about different uses of screens.

而在现实生活中，常有家庭问我：'孩子在学校用Chromebook算吗？打字写文档呢？读电子书呢？'人们很容易陷入细枝末节的纠结。

And when it comes down to our real lives, I'll sometimes have families who reach out and say like, okay, but if my kid is on a Chromebook at school, does that count? What if they're typing in a document? What if they're reading an ebook? Does that count? And it's so easy to get into the granular minutiae.

所以我喜欢退一步问：这个时长是否满足所有人需求？从我的管理投入来看是否可持续？

And that's why I like to sort of pull back and instead ask, is this an amount that is working for everyone and allowing us to get our needs met? And is it also sustainable in terms of the management I have to put in?

对。

Right.

对吧？比如我让孩子看一集30分钟的《汪汪队立大功》好让我做晚饭，结果结束后却要花25分钟来平息他的哭闹，那我这时间就不划算了。明白吗？为了那30分钟，我得投入大量时间。但这正是关键信息。

Right? Like if I am letting my kid watch a thirty minute episode of PAW Patrol while I make dinner, but then at the end it's a twenty five minute meltdown to end it, well then that, I'm not getting it. Right. I'm having to invest a lot of time to get that thirty minutes. But that is information.

所以与其立刻反应'我早该知道不该让你看这个'，不如我们换个角度：回到需求本身，真正的需求是什么？如果需求是'没有其他看护人，我想做顿非冷冻鸡块的饭（已经连吃三天了），需要安全待在厨房，所以得让孩子有事可做'——好，这就是需求。那么当下如果没有其他选择，屏幕可能就是你需要的手段。如果今天《汪汪队》确实不管用，搞得一团糟，那我该调整什么？

And so instead of immediately being like, I knew it, I shouldn't have let you watch that. If instead we go, okay, what about this? Coming back to the need, what's the need? If the need is I have no other caregiver, and I want to make a meal that isn't frozen chicken nuggets for the third day in a row, and I need to be able to safely be in my kitchen, and so I need my kid occupied, okay, that's the need, then yeah, a screen might be the tool that you need in that moment if there isn't another one available. And if that's my need, okay, if today, wow, PAW Patrol really did not work, that was rough, what can I change?

我无法改变自己需要满足这一需求的事实。我无法改变目前没有其他看护人可用的现状。我也无法改变我们找不到一个能让孩子独自玩耍的游乐场的情况。但我可以改变他们观看的节目，或者调整去公园的时间——比如提前去，这样孩子已经得到了充分的活动，也许当天的情绪失调就不会那么严重。这种中立态度让我们能够将其视为数据，作为参考信息。

I can't change that I need that need met. I can't change that I don't have another caregiver available. I can't change if we don't have access to a playground that my kid can play alone at. But I could change what show they watch, or maybe I change going to the park right before, so they've had some big input, and maybe that makes the dysregulation not as impactful that day. So that neutrality allows us to see it as data, as information.

然后我们就可以调整并尝试各种方法，来弄清楚接下来要

And then we can shift and try things out to figure out what's going to

为我们工作，这也向孩子们展示了他们如何在成长过程中将这一点应用到生活中。当父母问我这些问题时，我经常思考的层面是，我认为这里还有很多其他因素。因为关于屏幕，我经常思考的一点是，它无关道德，没有好坏之分，但我认为我们都希望孩子明白，成功、兴奋、多巴胺并不总是来得很快或轻易获得。这不是他们可以轻松消费的东西。比如，有时我需要努力工作才能获得成功。

work for us, and that also shows our kids how they can apply that to their lives as they grow up. And the layer that I often think about when parents ask me these questions is I think there's so many other factors here. Because one of the things that I think about a lot with screens, again, is not moral, not good or bad, but one of the things I think we all want for our kids is for them to learn that success, that excitement, that dopamine, you know, does not always come quickly or to them. It's not something they can just easily consume. And for example, like I sometimes need to work hard before I get success.

我可以创造东西，过程可能很混乱，我可以把内心的想法变成高塔或做其他事情。对吧？我同意，这与屏幕使用并不互斥。但我经常与家庭讨论的是关于努力工作的程度。对我来说，家庭常说的停止工作或希望自己做得不同的地方，是他们看到孩子几乎习惯了所谓的‘成功’和多巴胺以相对较少的努力获得，导致他们对其他形式的游戏、学习阅读这种需要大量努力的活动的耐受性降低了。

I can create things and it's messy and I can take ideas inside me and make towers or or do things. Right? Now I agree, like, that does not have to be mutually exclusive with screens. But when I'm often talking to families about is an amount of working. To me, where often families say it's stopping working or where they maybe wish they did things a little differently is where they see this pattern of my kid is almost so accustomed to, quote, success and dopamine coming to them with relatively little effort, that their tolerance for other forms of play, their tolerance for learning how to read, which is just a lot of effort, I see it lower.

因此在早期阶段，我对父母说的是，这并不关乎——每个家庭都如此不同。我讨厌那种‘这是标准量’或‘每个家庭都一样’的想法。我不知道具体情况，影响因素太多了。公平性也是一个重要因素。

And so in the early years, the one the things I say to parents is it's not about again, every family is so different. I hate the idea of like, this is the amount, or this is like, every family is different. I don't know what's going on. There's so many factors. Equity is a huge thing too.

你只需要思考，我的孩子是否有这样的机会——顺便说一句，我可能得忍受他们的挫败感，他们会抱怨、发脾气——但他们正在培养一些情绪调节技能，比如努力做某事、坚持、尝试、协商，以及处理那些没有即时回报的复杂事情，我认为这是一个非常重要的平衡。

You just think, does my kid have opportunities where, by the way, I'll probably have to tolerate their frustration, they're gonna whine, they're gonna tantrum, right? But where they are building kind of some emotion regulation skills for working hard at something and sticking with things and trying things and negotiating and doing things that are really complex without some immediate reward, I think is like a really it's an important offset.

完全同意。我其实记得我们之前关于屏幕的另一场讨论。是的，你用一种特别的方式阐述了一个观点，我经常回想思考。那和这个类似，但更偏向极端情况，比如你曾与那些从成瘾中恢复的人交流，是关于物质成瘾而非科技成瘾的。

Absolutely. I I remember actually the the other kind of conversation we had about screens. Yeah. You frame something in a particular way that I come back to and think about all the time. And it was similar to this, and it was more from the kind of more extreme side talking to, I think, people you'd work with who were in, like, coming out of addiction, but with substances, not with technology.

我记得你说过类似的话，如果我们试图寻找的不是直接的替代品，而是想要转变那种依赖关系，那它就不会那么令人满足。

And I remember you saying something about, like, if we're trying to find something that can kind of function as not like a direct supplement, but we're trying to kind of shift that, it's not going to be as satisfying.

如果我

If I

对某种物质有上瘾的关系，然后我突然决定，我要

am in an addictive relationship with a substance, and I'm suddenly like, I'm going

去做瑜伽。那种快感不会来得那么快。对吧，

to do yoga. Not going to feel as good as fast. Right,

没错。那感觉是不一样的。所以我们找不到直接的替代品。而且我觉得你也在说，我们不一定非要找一个直接的替代品。屏幕非常擅长的一点是，它们能提供密集、即时且一致的反馈。

nope. It's not going to be the same. So we can't find a direct substitute. And I think what you're saying too is that we don't want necessarily to find a direct substitute. So one of the things that screens are very good at is they are very good at providing dense, immediate, and consistent feedback.

是的。

Yes.

而现实世界根本做不到这一点。是啊，有时候真希望它能。但即使我是个两岁的孩子，在搭积木，和在iPad上搭积木塔相比，iPad上的那些积木，它们的重心总是一样的，每次都会以同样的方式倒下，可能还会有同样的摇晃动画，所以我知道需要调整。所有这些都会比真实的积木更即时、更一致。

And ways that the real world just doesn't do. Yeah. And would be nice sometimes if it would. But even if I'm a two year old and I'm trying to balance blocks, right, versus like a block tower on an iPad, those blocks on that iPad, they're always going to have the same center of gravity, and they're always going to go the same way, and they might have the same wobbly animation every time, so I know I have to make an adjustment. And all of that is going to be a lot more immediate and a lot more consistent than the physical blocks.

所以我喜欢把这种想法定位为补充，而不是替代。是的，我觉得就是这样。

So I like to frame things that is thinking not as a substitute, but instead as a supplement. Yes, I think that's it.

我们都觉得它是你世界的一部分，而不是全部

We're both like it's a part of your world and not all of

我在家里也进行过同样的对话，比如关于涂色的事情。是啊，就像那些应用，点一下这里，再点一下那里，颜色就完全饱和了。我就想，我懂了，这确实非常令人满足。

your And I've had that same conversation in my own household when it came to like coloring. Yeah. Like apps where it's like, well, just clicked this, and I clicked this, and now it's fully saturated. And I'm like, I get it. It is deeply satisfying.

我完全理解。我也希望你能同样满足地为它上色，虽然这会花更多时间，我们现在就来试试。是的。就像你说的，有些日子我有能力，我知道我有时间、有精力、有情感储备，可以陪你一起面对这种不适，帮你处理这种不适。这是我此刻能帮到你的技能。

I totally get it. And I also want you to be able to color that in just as satisfyingly, and it will take more time, and we're gonna try that right now. Yep. And like you said, some days I have the capacity, and I know I have the time, I have the capacity, I have the emotional wherewithal that I can sit with you in this discomfort and help you manage this discomfort. That's a skill I can help you with right now.

但有些日子，我做不到。没错吧？所以如果当时我无法提供这种支持，中立态度的好处就在于，我不会在脑子里想着：天啊，他们以后只会用iPad涂色了，再也不会拿起铅笔了。

And some days, I don't. Nope. Right? And so if that's not something that I have available to me, again, one of the benefits of the neutrality is that then I'm not in my brain going like, oh my gosh, they're only gonna wanna color on this iPad ever again. They're never gonna pick up a pencil.

我不会陷入末日幻想或灾难化思维。相反，我会想：好吧，我现在处理不了这个。今天他们就先用iPad涂色吧。但心里记着，我们需要确保之后也能有其他练习机会。

They're never I'm not gonna doom Spiral about and catastrophize. But instead, I can go, okay, I can't handle this right now. Today, they're gonna color on the iPad. And mental note, like, we need to make sure we're also getting in some of these other opportunities.

说得太好了。你的工作真是...谢谢。你的书《任何》算是最终版了吗？或者还有什么你觉得必须补充的内容？最后有什么特别想告诉家长的吗？

I love that. Well, look, your work, thank you. And your book Any is so kind of final or things you're like, oh, I just have to get this in? Final thoughts or something you really want a parent to know?

我想补充另一个我们间接讨论过但未直接提及的观点：对科技产生恐惧有很多合理理由。尤其当孩子长大后，我们开始担心那些可能有害、危险或令人恐惧的事物。我们显然想保护孩子，但至少对我而言，当我处于恐惧状态时，我无法做出最好的育儿决策，甚至无法正常生活——因为我只能被动反应，无法真正主动应对。

I think the other aspect I'd just add that I think we've talked a lot around, but maybe not directly about, is there are many reasons that are reasonable to have fear when it comes to technology. I think especially as our kids get older, we start feeling afraid of things that could be bad or dangerous or feel really just scary. And we want to, obviously, want to protect our kids. And we, at least for myself, I don't tend to do my best parenting or even, like, existing when I am coming from a place of fear, because all I can really do is react. I can't really be particularly proactive.

是的。当孩子逐渐长大，我们会考虑智能手机、社交媒体等伴随而来的问题。我们想保护孩子远离这些，这种担忧很合理。但我想用游泳池做个类比——

Yeah. And I think with things like as kids get older, we're thinking about like smartphones or social media and all the all the things that can come with that. We want to shield our kids from it. And again, I think that's like a reasonable concern that people have, and they want to shield their kids from it. And I'd like to make a comparison to thinking about pools.

几分钟前我们刚提到游泳池。因为泳池充满乐趣和可能性，水域能丰富生活，但它们本质上是危险的。对吧？我们并非天生就会游泳、懂得水性。

We just mentioned pools a few minutes ago, but thinking about pools. Because pools are fun, have a lot of opportunity, bodies of water can enrich your life, and they are inherently dangerous. Yeah. Right? Like, we are not born suddenly able to swim and navigate and do all those things.

但正因为水域危险，我们才更需要教会孩子应对技能。我在书中和对话中始终强调：应该关注孩子需要掌握什么技能来驾驭事物——哪怕是平衡责任与娱乐这种看似简单的事（两者都重要，但需要协调）。当我们聚焦于培养技能而非潜在危险带来的恐惧时，我们就能赋能孩子，也赋能自己。恐惧状态下，我们无法真正获得力量。

And we also know that because a pool or a body of water is dangerous, we have to give our kids the skills they need to navigate that thing. So what I try to do in this, conversations but also in my book, is to really emphasize how am I thinking about the skills that my child may need to navigate something, even if it's just balance Yeah. Between responsibilities and leisure, both are valid, we also have to find a way to make them all work, and something like being able to navigate something that can be dangerous. And when we're able to see through to the skill, instead of focusing on the fear I have about what could go wrong, then we're able to empower our child and empower ourselves. And I think that when we're coming from a place of fear, we're not going to be empowered.

我们无法给予他们力量。但通过关注具体技能，我们能帮助他们理解这些能力的广泛应用，无论数字世界还是现实世界，都将伴随他们成长。

We're not going to be able to empower them. But being able to focus on this skill, and then we can help them see all the ways that applies, and then that helps them in their lives as they grow up, whether it's in the digital world or the real world.

太棒了。从恐惧转向赋能与技能培养。谢谢，这个结尾很精彩。非常感谢。

I love that. The shift from fear to empowerment and skills. So thank you. It's a great note to end on. Well, thank you.

我会很快再找机会和你聊聊。

I'll approach talking to you again soon.

谢谢邀请我参加。

Thank you for having me.

我不知道你怎么想，但对我来说，这次对话让我最大的收获是意识到屏幕时间问题有多么复杂，以及当我真正抛开羞耻感，将其视为孩子生活的一部分，寻找适合家庭的解决方案，而不是施加如此严厉的评判时，我实际上可以做出让自己更满意的育儿决策。这种认知能帮助我以更自豪的方式履行父母职责。好了，让我们像往常一样结束：双脚踩实地面，一只手放在心口，提醒自己——即便外表狼狈，内心依然澄明。期待下次相见。感谢我们的赞助商培乐多彩泥、Chomps零食和Sittercity家政服务平台。

I don't know about you, but for me, the biggest thing I took from the conversation is realizing how loaded screen time is and actually how I can make better decisions that I feel good about with my kids when I do kinda strip away the shame and I look at it as one part of their life and figuring out what works for the family and not adding such an intense layer of judgment that will actually help me show up in a way I feel prouder about. Anyway, let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves, even as I struggle on the outside, I remain good inside. I can't wait to see you next time. Thank you to our sponsors, PLAY DOH brand, Chomps, and Sittercity.