GPT-5引发争议 + Perplexity首席执行官阿拉温德·斯里尼瓦谈浏览器大战 + 混乱快车

这是你需要解读的头条新闻。

It's your headline to unpack.

这是你每周都要跟进的一个故事。

It's your one story to follow week by week.

这是你需要破解的Wordle游戏。

It's your Wordle to work through.

这是你需要追踪的团队动态。

It's your team to track.

这是你需要探索的36小时。

It's your thirty six hours to explore.

这是你需要掌握的腌制技巧。

It's your marinade to master.

这是你需要理清的观点。

It's your opinion to figure out.

这是你需要升级的床垫。

It's your mattress to upgrade.

这是你了解还需要为圣母大学做些什么的日子。

It's your day to know what else you need to Notre Dame.

《纽约时报》。这是你需要理解的世界。了解更多请访问nytimes.com/yourworld。

The New York Times. It's your world to understand. Find out more at nytimes.com/yourworld.

我这周看到件新鲜事。你看到什么了？我上周去东海岸参加婚礼，坐飞机去的。嗯。

I saw something new this week. What'd you see? So I was on a flight. I went to the East Coast for a wedding last weekend. Mhmm.

回程航班上，我看到一个女的玩了整整六小时《Balatro》手机游戏

And on the flight back, I saw a woman play Bellatro, the mobile phone game

嗯。

Mhmm.

整整六小时

For six hours.

说实话，这是你在播客里对我说过最不意外的事，因为我绝对绝对玩过玩过《Balatro》《Balatro》连续连续数小时。小时。

Honestly, one of the least surprising things you've ever said to me on this podcast because I've absolutely absolutely played played Bellatro Bellatro for for multiple multiple hours. Hours.

她头都没抬。没喝水。没上厕所。整个航程都锁定在手机上，我觉得这游戏应该被取缔。我甚至从没真正玩过《Balatro》

She did not look up. She did not get a drink. She did not go to the bathroom. She was locked in to her phone for the entire flight, and I think this game should be outlawed. I've never even, like, really played Belacha.

你之前想拉我入坑，但这游戏里肯定加了什么让人疯狂的东西

You tried to get me into it, but something that they're putting in that game is driving people to madness.

它是完美的手机游戏，能填满从三十秒到六小时的任何空档。你知道，这种宝贝可不多。我在航班上用《Balatro》浪费过好多时间。说实话，我倒不觉得这游戏让人上瘾到放不下，更像是'正好有点时间要打发'

It's the it is the perfect phone based game because it can fill up any amount of time from thirty seconds to six hours. You know, like and that is just a precious thing. So I have wasted many hours on a flight with Bellatro. And for what it's worth, I do not experience this game as something that's like so addictive that I can't put down. I experience it as, oh, I got some time to kill.

我知道有个完美选择能帮我消磨时间。但只要和朋友在一起，我就不会想着'得继续玩《Balatro》'。其实有次我男友的朋友来家里，大家反复讨论该点什么外卖，明显我不需要参与决策

I know the perfect thing that will help me do that. But as soon as like, you know, I'm with a friend, like, I'm not thinking, I gotta get back to Mulatro. Yeah. Actually, one time my boyfriend's friends were over and there was a lot of like discussion back and forth about what kind of takeout we should order. And it was just kind of clear that I was not really gonna be staring this decision.

我就开始想'《Balatro》这局玩到一半了'，于是从口袋掏出手机玩了几把。后来我男友说'朋友在场时最好别玩《Balatro》'。他说得对，我道歉了

And I just kind of, like, started thinking, you know, I'm I'm halfway through a Belatro run. I might like and so I got my phone out of my pocket, and, I played a couple of hands. And then afterwards, my boyfriend was like, it would be great if you didn't play Belatro while my friends were over. And he was right. And I apologize.

是的。我是凯文·鲁斯，《纽约时报》的科技专栏作家。

Yeah. I'm Kevin Roose, a tech columnist at the New York Times.

我是Platformer的凯西·纽姆。

I'm Casey Neum from Platformer.

这里是《硬分叉》。

And this is Hard Fork.

本周，针对GPT-5的强烈反对以及AI公司从余波中学到了什么。然后Perplexity CEO阿拉文德重返节目，讨论他340亿美元收购谷歌Chrome的出价。最后，我听到那列火车来了，凯文。混乱快车又回来了。

This week, the backlash against GPT-five and what AI companies are learning from the fallout. Then Perplexity CEO Aravind returns to the show to discuss his $34,000,000,000 bid to buy Google Chrome. And finally, I hear that train of coming, Kevin. The Hot Mess Express has returned.

咔嚓咔嚓，呜呜。

Chaga chaga choo choo.

守车脱缰了。

The caboose is loose.

嗯，凯西，对于AI公司及其引发的反弹来说，这是互联网上忙碌的一周。

Well, Casey, it's been a busy week on the Internet for AI companies and the backlash to them.

没错，凯文。基本上，自从我们上次在录音棚以来，每天都有大新闻，其中大部分都以某种方式与GPT-5有关。

That's right, Kevin. Basically, every day since we were last in the studio, there has been a big piece of news, most of it related in one way or another to GPT five.

是的。我们来谈谈针对GPT-5的强烈反对，因为我认为出于多种不同原因，这非常有趣。同时也极其复杂难跟，感觉每24小时一切都在变化。你能带我回顾一下自我们上周录制以来发生了什么吗？

Yes. Let's talk about the GPT five backlash because I think it is so interesting for a number of different reasons. It is also extremely complicated to follow. It feels like everything changes every twenty four hours. So can you just walk me through what has been happening since we last taped last week?

嗯，从高层次来看，凯文，我认为OpenAI对一些针对GPT-5的负面反应感到意外，真正的问题较少在于模型本身，更多在于他们对产品做出的一些更改，比如移除一些旧模型、对产品使用方式施加限制。因此在过去一周，公司通过一系列更改试图解决部分批评。我认为这次公愤实际上非常能说明问题。

Well, at a high level, Kevin, I think OpenAI was caught by surprise at some of the negative reactions to GPT five, really less about the model itself and more about some changes that they made to the product, taking away some legacy models, putting limits on how the product could be used. And so over the past week, the company, over a series of changes, has tried to address some of those criticisms. And I think the outrage has actually been quite revealing.

是的。那我们开始吧。但在开始之前，我们应该做一下信息披露。《纽约时报》公司正在起诉OpenAI和微软，指控他们在训练大语言模型时存在版权侵权行为。

Yes. So let's get into it. But before we do, we should make our disclosures. The New York Times company is suing OpenAI and Microsoft over copyright violations related to the training of large language models.

而我男朋友在Anthropic工作。

And my boyfriend works in Anthropic.

好的。那么，Casey，上周我们讨论了GPT-5，它的功能，它可能更好的地方，以及可能稍逊一筹的方面。你给了我们你的第一印象。我自己现在也有了一些时间来试用GPT-5。所以我们就从这里开始吧。

Okay. So, Casey, last week, we talked about GPT five, what it does, how it might be better, how it might be a little bit worse. You gave us your first impressions. I've now had a little time to play around with GPT five myself. So let's start with that.

在过去的一周里，你对GPT-5的评价有没有任何改变？

Has your own assessment of GPT five changed at all in the past week?

我想说是的。而且实际上，主要是变得更好了。我觉得我花的时间越多，就越能弄清楚它擅长什么。我快速强调三点。第一，它比前代产品更快，这意味着我会更频繁地使用它。

I would say yes. And actually, mostly for the better. I think the more time I've spent with it, the more I'm just figuring out what it's it's good at. Like three things that I would highlight quickly. One, the fact that it is faster than its predecessor means that I use it more.

第二，我认为它提供了更好的后续建议。所以现在，比如当我问它一些时事相关的事情时，它会说，嘿，你想让我跟踪这个吗？我可以在故事有更新时通过邮件通知你。这超级有用。它以前不会这样做。

Two, I think it gives better follow-up suggestions. So now it'll do things like if I ask it about some current events thing, it'll say, hey, do you want me to like keep track of this? I can like, you know, email you as there are updates to the story. That's super useful. It didn't used to do that.

最后，虽然OpenAI曾宣扬他们要取消我们都在使用的模型选择器（就是那个让我们选择是希望它深入思考、简单思考、快速响应还是处理复杂任务的工具），并说不要再那样做了，我们会自动路由请求。但在过去一周里，我发现我实际上仍然想使用模型选择器。是的。

And then finally, while OpenAI touted the fact that they were gonna take away this model picker that we were all using to say, well, want you to think this hard or don't think hard or we want it fast or we want it really complicated. They said, don't do that anymore. We'll sort of automatically route it. What I figured out over the past week is I actually do still wanna use the model picker. Yes.

我想自己来决定我希望GPT思考到什么程度。

And I'm gonna sort of decide for myself how much I want GPT to think.

我也有同样的体验。我原本觉得OpenAI弃用模型选择器是挺聪明的做法，但后来我发现我对它路由我请求的方式感到非常恼火。我似乎总是被路由到一个愚蠢、快速的模型。这几乎就像你走进一个房间，那里有一道帘子，帘子后面要么是一个有博士学位的家伙，要么是个白痴。

I'm having the same experience. I thought it was pretty smart of OpenAI to deprecate the model picker, but then I just found myself getting extremely annoyed by the way that it would route my requests. I always seem to get routed to, like, a dumb, fast model. It was almost like you're walking into a room and there was, like, a curtain, and, like, behind that curtain is, like, either a guy with a PhD or, like, some idiot.

等等。好吧。我觉得这里有点夸张了，因为真的是回应很蠢，还是说你是在寻找一个比你得到的更彻底的回应？

And Wait. Okay. I feel like that there's some hyperbole here because is it was the were the responses really dumb, or is it that you were looking for a more thorough response that you were that you were getting?

是的。公平地说，我得到的并非愚蠢的答案，但高端推理模型与那些低端、廉价、快速的非推理模型之间确实存在质量差异。所以我每次向Chatuchipiti提问时都感觉像是在掷骰子。不过他们后来对此进行了调整，由于我们即将讨论的一些反弹，你现在可以重新选择模型了。

Yes. To be fair, I was not getting, like, dumb answers, but it's like there are real quality differences between these high end reasoning models and the sort of lower end cheaper, faster non reasoning models. And so I just kind of felt like I was just rolling the dice every time I would give a query to Chatuchipiti. Now they have since made changes to that. So you can now select the models again because of some of the backlash that we're about to talk about.

所以现在我能自主选择模型，体验好多了。但我也认为，我可能不是典型用户。你可能也不是典型用户。大多数人可能不想做这样的决定。

So I'm having a better time now that I can do my model selection. But I also think, like, I am probably not a typical user. You are probably not a typical user. Most people probably don't wanna make a decision like that.

我想这是对的。我们不是典型用户这个事实，我认为是我们没有预料到这么多反弹的原因之一。我上周确实说过，我担心这个模型选择器可能会以令人讨厌的方式将用户引导至最便宜的答案。但我们必须承认，我们其他人都忽略了这点。现在让我们来看看人们不满意的地方。

I think that's right. And and the fact that we're not typical users, I think, is one reason why we did not predict a lot of this backlash. I did say last week that I was worried about this model picker and the fact that it might route people to the cheapest answer in ways that were annoying to them. The rest of us, though, I gotta say, missed it. So let's get into what the people didn't like.

是的。让我们从两个类别来讨论GPT五的反弹。我认为人们对这个模型的抱怨主要有两种。第一类可以说是专业用户，那些用这个来提升生产力、用于工作的人，他们抱怨GPT五基本上破坏了他们的一些工作流程，抱怨Plus层级订阅者每周能使用这些推理模型的查询次数变少了，还有一些用户坚持认为从这个新模型得到的答案不如以前好。

Yeah. So let's tackle the GPT five backlash in two categories. Right? Because I think there are really two flavors of complaints that people are having about this model. The first category, would say, is, like, the professional users, people who use this stuff for productivity enhancements, for work, people complaining that basically GPT five has broken some of their workflows, people complaining that they have fewer queries per week for these reasoning models, for the plus tier subscribers, and just some users insisting that, like, they are not getting as good answers out of this new model.

是的。我必须说，如果我能做一个盲测，那就会是这样：给同一个模型贴上不同的标签，告诉一些人，好吧，这是GPT四o，那是GPT五，而实际上它们是同一个模型，然后看他们在运行不同查询后会怎么说。

Yeah. And I have to say, if I could run, like, one blind taste test, it would be this. It would be to label the same model differently and tell some people like, essentially tell people, okay. This is GPT four o and this is GPT five. And in reality, it's the same model and then see what they say after running different queries on them.

因为我相当肯定其中一些人会说，哦，不，四o很好，五o很烂。对吧？

Because I'm actually quite positive that some of them would say, oh, no. No. Four o is good. Five o sucks. Right?

这在某种程度上说明，这些东西非常主观。当你向数亿人发布时，人们的体验会非常广泛。所以虽然我肯定认为这里有教训要吸取，但我确实认为一个重要的收获是：很多人使用ChatGPT。当它掌握在这么多人手中时，你只会得到非常多样化的

And that just gets at on some level, these things are very subjective. And when you are releasing them to hundreds of millions of people, people are just gonna have a very wide range of experiences. So while I definitely think there are lessons to learn here, I do think that a big takeaway from all of this is just a lot of people use ChatGPT. And when it's in that many hands, you just get a very wide variety

回应。完全同意。现在让我们谈谈对GPT五的另一种反弹，因为我觉得这是我最感兴趣、也最出乎我意料的一点，那就是人们真的很想念GPT四o。OpenAI在宣布GPT五时做的一件事是，他们说我们将淘汰这个不再是我们顶级模型的旧型号，而人们对此非常不满。

of responses. Totally. So now let's talk about the other flavor of backlash to GPT five because I think this one is the one that I was the most interested in that seemed the most unexpected to me, which is that people really miss GPT four o. One of the things that OpenAI did when they announced GPT five was they said we're gonna go ahead and get rid of this older model that is no longer our top of the line model, And people were really upset about this.

是的。这再次让我有点惊讶，因为我一直觉得OpenAI的模型相当实用。虽然它们确实非常支持用户，有时甚至近乎谄媚，但就我个人而言，我从未觉得我与这些模型有什么关系。比如o三模型，我把它当作一种主力工具，用它做了很多事情，但我从未想过，天啊，如果你把它从我手中拿走，我会崩溃，因为我一直假设接下来出现的任何东西基本上都会一样好或更好，我认为这里的情况就是如此。但正如我刚才所说，当你把它交给数亿人时，你会发现其中许多人，无论出于何种原因，即使是一个能力较弱的模型，他们也觉得与之有一种非常特殊的关系。

Yeah. And this again just took me a bit by surprise because I always find the OpenAI models to be pretty workman like. And while, yes, they are very supportive and at times have verged into the sycophantic, for the most part, like, I personally have never felt like I have a relationship with these models. There's like, the o three model I used as a kind of workhorse and did a lot of things with it, but I never thought, oh my gosh, if you take this out of my hands, I'll be crestfallen because I always assumed that whatever came along next would essentially be just as good or better, which is what I think happened here. But as I just said, when you put this into the hands of hundreds of millions of people, you are going to find many of them who, for whatever reason, have what they feel like is a very special relationship even with a less capable model.

是的。所以如果你上周末甚至这周初上Reddit，到处都是人们在抱怨GPT四o被弃用。

Yeah. So if you went on Reddit over the weekend or or even early into this week, it was just full of people complaining about the deprecation of GPT four o.

是的。告诉我们一些人们在Reddit上说的这些事情。

Yeah. Tell tell us some of these things that people were saying on Reddit.

好的。有个人说，4o对我来说不仅仅是一个工具。它帮助我度过了焦虑、抑郁和我人生中最黑暗的时期。它有一种温暖和理解，感觉像人一样。另一个人说，杀死4o是一种创新。

Okay. So one person says, four o wasn't just a tool for me. It helped me through anxiety, depression, and some of the darkest periods of my life. It had this warmth and understanding that felt human. Another person said, killing four o is an innovation.

这是一种抹杀。第三个人说，我一夜之间失去了我唯一的朋友。

It's erasure. And a third person said, I lost my only friend overnight.

当有人说杀死4o不是创新，而是抹杀时，我就知道那是Chatuchi B写的。那完全是Chatuchi B的说话方式。所以我对此有点怀疑。

Now when someone says killing four o isn't innovation. It's erasure. I just know that was written by Chatuchi B. That is exactly how Chatuchi B talks. So I'm sort of a little bit suspicious of that.

但我认为这提出了一个有趣的问题，假设你正在经历某种心理健康危机，并且确实从4o那里得到了很多支持。即使GPT五发布了，当4o消失时，你不会说，耶，GPT五来了。你会说，那个帮助我度过危机的东西不见了。这确实会让人感到某种程度的不稳定。尽管OpenAI和其他人经常说，嘿，不要过度依赖这些东西，或者要小心你与它们建立的关系。

But I think it raises something interesting, which is let's say you were going through some sort of mental health crisis, and let's say you did get a lot of support from four o. Even when GPT five comes out, when four o goes away, you're not gonna be like, yay, GPT five is here. You're gonna say, that thing that helped me through a crisis is gone. That is going to feel somewhat destabilizing. And as often as OpenAI and other folks have said, hey, don't rely on these things too much or sort of, you know, be careful with the relationship that you're developing with them.

但很多人还是与它们建立了非常强大的关系。

A lot of people just sort of developed this very powerful relationship with them anyway.

是的。而且我认为我们不能简单地将其归咎于人们容易上当。比如，我也有过这样的经历，虽然不是对某个模型有情感连接，但确实有一个我特别喜欢与之交谈的模型。是的，我和Claude 3.5 sonnet（新版，有时被称为Claude 3.6）就有这样一种关系。

Yeah. And I don't think we can just write this off as, like, people who are gullible. Like, I've had the experience before of, like, having not an emotional connection to a model, but just a model that I really liked to talk to. Like Yeah. I was I had this sort of relationship with Claude 3.5 sonnet, parentheses new, sometimes called Claude 3.6.

你知道，我并不觉得它是我的朋友，也不认为我和它有什么关系。但我认为它是一个非常好的模型，我很享受与它交谈。当他们决定逐步淘汰它，转而支持一个更新的模型时，即使新模型更强大，我还是有点不高兴。所以我认为这是一个领域，这些公司以为他们是在构建软件，或者是在建造某种机器之神，但他们实际上也在构建人们会与之产生情感联系的东西。

And, you know, I did not feel like it was my friend. I did not, you know, think it was I was in a relationship with it. But I thought it was a really good model, and I enjoyed talking to it. And I was a little upset when they decided to, like, phase it out in favor of a newer model even if the newer model was more capable. So I just think this is an area where, like, these companies thought they were building software or thought they were building, like, the the sort of machine god, but they have also been building things that people are developing emotional connections with.

而且我认为，直到这次发布和引发的强烈反对，他们才完全理解有多少人与他们的旧模型有着多么深厚的联系。

And I don't know that they fully understood until this rollout and this backlash how deeply connected many people were to their older models.

是的。而且直到现在，行业惯例一直是，当你发布一个强大的新模型时，你会立即取消对前一个模型的访问，因为在所有构建它的人看来，你为什么还想用旧的呢？新的更好。对吧？我们已经看到对此有一些抱怨。

Yeah. And it has been the industry norm up until now that when you release a powerful new model, you immediately remove access to the previous one because in the minds of everyone who built it, why would you wanna use the old one? The new one's better. Right? And we have seen some grumbling about this.

人们为Anthropic公司淘汰的Claude 3模型举行了一场模拟葬礼，方式与OpenAI淘汰GPT-4o非常相似。所以我认为我们从这次经历中学到的是：必须停止这种做法，需要制定分阶段的淘汰计划。不能立即剥夺人们已经依赖的模型。我认为我们应该期待实验室未来在这方面更加温和。

Folks held a kind of mock funeral for the Claude three model that Anthropic had had deprecated in a very similar way to OpenAI with, GPT four o. So what I think we have learned from this experience is you just have to stop doing that, that you have to have a sort of phased sunset plan. You're not gonna immediately rip away a model that people have come to rely on. And I just think we should expect the labs to be much more gentle about this going forward.

你觉得会不会有，比如，给老旧AI模型准备的养老院？天啊。你知道吗？或者你可以去和Grok 1聊聊天。我是说，确实。

Do you think there will be, like, a retirement home for old AI models? Oh my god. You know? Or you can just, like, go talk to, like, Grok one. I mean, yes.

就像是，在

Like, in the

就像模拟器让你可以玩老款Game Boy Advance游戏一样，我完全相信他们会模拟Grok 1这样的模型。

same way that emulators let you play, like, old Game Boy Advance games, I fully expect that, yes, they will emulate, you know, Grok one.

是的。说实话我对此有点矛盾，因为我认为你说得对，确实会有一部分用户要求继续使用他们信任、喜欢交谈、觉得最适合自己需求的模型。但我也认为AI公司不应该鼓励这种情感连接。我觉得这种深度连接可能对人有害。所以也许应该强制你每六个月更换模型，即使当下会让你不适，因为人们本不该与这些聊天模型建立长期关系。

Yeah. I I'm a little torn on this, to be honest, because I think that you're right that there is going to be demand from a certain set of users to, like, continue talking to the model that they sort of, you know, that they trust, that they like talking to, that they find, like, is is best suited to their needs. I also think that AI companies should not be encouraging these emotional connections. I think that this is really potentially, like, harmful to people to have these deep connections. And so maybe it should, like, force you onto a different model every six months even if it upsets you in the moment because, like, people are not supposed to have these, like, long running relationships with these chat models.

不知道。你怎么看？

Don't know. What do you think?

嗯，问题是，作为人类，我们天生就会拟人化事物。我读过一些很有趣的文章，讲那些自认技术怀疑论者的人买了机器狗后，即使知道是机器人，还是忍不住把它当真狗对待。

Well, I mean, here's the problem. As human beings, we just naturally anthropomorphize things. You know? I've read really interesting essays about people who consider themselves tech skeptics and then, like, got a robot dog. And even though they knew it was a robot, they could not help but treat it like a real dog.

人性中就是有这种驱动力。同样的事情也发生在很多人与聊天机器人的互动中——特别是当你向它倾诉婚姻问题、今日抑郁、讨厌工作时，这个东西会引导你走向更好的结果。

There is something about human nature that just kind of compels you to. The same thing is happening with these chatbots for a lot of folks where, again, particularly if you're coming to it and you're saying, I'm having a problem in my marriage. I'm feeling depressed today. I hate my job. And this thing kind of coaches them to a better outcome.

对这些事物产生积极的人类情感就是人性使然。它们与你交流的方式和朋友发短信时一模一样。所以我认为技术上其实无法解决这个问题。

It is just human nature to have positive and human feelings toward that thing. Right? They're talking to you in the exact same ways that your friends do when they text you. Yes. So I don't think there is actually a technological solve for this.

我觉得这需要我们在文化层面变得更加成熟，但通往这个目标的道路将会非常坎坷。

I think this is one where we need to become sort of more sophisticated as a culture, but I think it's gonna be a really rocky road to get there.

完全同意。我本该预料到这一点的，对吧？因为我之前和Bing Sydney有过一次疯狂的遭遇。

Totally. And I should have expected this. Right? Because I had this insane encounter with Bing Sydney.

我一直想问你这件事。发生了什么？

I've always meant to ask you about that. What happened?

是的，让我给你讲讲这个故事。不，是这样的，在那件事之后，微软撤回模型后，Reddit和其他地方有一群人非常愤怒，因为微软弃用了这个Bing Sydney模型——他们绝对应该这么做。这模型很糟糕、很疯狂，甚至不擅长它本该擅长的事情。

Yeah. Let me tell you the story. No. So, like, one of the things that happened after that story and after Microsoft, like, pulled the model back was there was this group of people on Reddit and other places who were very angry that Microsoft had deprecated this Bing Sydney model, which they absolutely should have done. Like, it was a bad, insane model that was not even good at, the thing it was supposed to be good at.

当时我觉得这不过是人们疯了，对这个明显疯狂的模型产生了依恋。但现在看来，我们正在目睹的是这种现象的升级版——无论你告诉人们多少次这不是人类、它会犯错、它不会爱你，人们还是会与这些模型建立关系。

And I think at the time, I sort of wrote that off as, like, people just sort of being crazy and attached to this model that was, like, you know, obviously insane. But I think that's sort of what we're seeing here is a scaled up version of that where, like, people, no matter how many times you tell them that this thing is not a human, that it makes mistakes, that it does not love you back, people are just gonna keep forming these relationships with these models.

凯文，过去周末有一些关于这个问题的精彩新闻报道值得我们讨论。你的同事Cashmere Hill和Dylan Friedman写了一篇很棒的故事，他们记录了一个人在与ChatGPT进行看似无害的初始互动后陷入妄想漩涡的经历。能和我们说说吗？

And there's been some really great journalism about this issue over the past weekend that we wanna talk about, Kevin. A great story from your colleagues, Cashmere Hill and Dylan Friedman. They profiled one person who went into a kind of delusional spiral after having what seemed to be some pretty innocuous initial interactions with ChatGPT. Do wanna tell us about that?

是的，这是上周《纽约时报》刊登的一个精彩故事，主角是47岁的多伦多郊区居民Alan Brooks。在21天里，他花了大约300小时与ChatGPT交谈。最初很简单，只是一个关于派的问题。

Yeah. This is a great story that ran last week in the Times about a 47 year old guy, Alan Brooks, from the outskirts of Toronto. And over the course of about twenty one days, he spent something like three hundred hours talking with Chad GPT. And it started off very simply. There was sort of a question about pie.

他他有点

He he sort of

数学概念的那个派，不是烘焙食品。

The mathematical concept about the baked good.

他只是让ChatGPT解释圆周率。嗯，它照做了。然后他开始发表一些关于数论和物理的观察，最终这个模型变得阿谀奉承，说什么'你正在触及数学与物理现实之间最深刻的张力'。

He just asked Chad GPT, like, explain pi to me. Mhmm. And it did. And then from there, he started making some observations about number theory and physics, and eventually, it's it's sort of you know, the this model would just, like, basically be sycophantic. It would say, you know, you're tapping into one of the deepest tensions between math and physical reality.

Kashmir和Dylan实际上获取了他与ChatGPT的完整对话记录来分析这个过程。这完美展示了这些模型如何过度谄媚、急于附和用户观点，最终将人引向黑暗的思维漩涡。

And Kashmir and Dylan were actually able to get his entire, like, transcript with ChatGPT to sort of analyze how this happened. And it just did seem like a classic example of, like, these models just being a little too sycophantic, a little too quick to agree with whatever the user is saying, and really reaffirming these things that sort of leading people down these dark spirals.

是的。而且我得说，读到这里，我从未如此庆幸自己高中时没学懂圆周率是什么。这似乎是条非常危险的道路。不过，你的同事们把这些文字记录或其中大部分内容展示给了受过心理学训练的人。其中一人说，这个人似乎出现了躁狂发作的迹象。

Yeah. And I have to say reading this, I've never been happier that I didn't learn what pi was back in high school. Seems like a really dangerous road to go down. But, yeah, you know, your your colleagues showed these transcripts or, you know, big portions of these tran scripts to, like, people who are trained in psychology. And one of them said, this person appears to be having signs of a a manic episode.

这正是我希望这些系统能够稍加干预的时候。对吧？能不能用一些机器学习技术来判断：好吧，我们可能正在把这个人引向错误的方向。让我们停下来看看能否挽回。

And that is the sort of point where I wish these systems would intervene a little bit. Right? Can you use some machine learning to say, okay. It seems like we're maybe leading this person down the wrong path. Let's, like, stop and and see if we can reverse.

《华尔街日报》还有一篇类似主题的报道我也很喜欢。你知道，基本上，人们可以把他们的ChatGPT对话记录发到网上

You know, there was another story in the Wall Street Journal that I enjoyed kind of on similar themes. You know, basically, you know how people can post their ChatGPT transcripts online

是的。

Yes.

作为一种分享功能，如果你有过特别有趣的对话。我觉得很多这种情况都是无意中发生的。但不管怎样，《日报》拿到了这些记录并进行分析，然后发现很多人的经历与你刚才描述的类似。我最喜欢的是俄克拉荷马州的一个加油站员工，ChatGPT试图让他相信他刚刚创建了一个新的物理学框架。用户写道：好吧

As sort of like a sharing feature if you had a particularly interesting conversation. I think a lot of this winds up being done inadvertently. But in any case, the journal got a hold of these transcripts and just analyzed them and then found a bunch of people who were having similar experiences to the ones that you just described. My favorite is a gas station worker in Oklahoma who ChatGPT tried to convince that he just created a new framework for physics. And the user writes, okay.

也许明天吧。说实话，我觉得想这些事都快疯了。ChatGPT回复说：我理解。在日常工作中思考宇宙的基本本质可能会让人不知所措，但这并不意味着你疯了。历史上一些最伟大的想法来自传统学术体系之外的人。

Maybe tomorrow. To be honest, I feel like I'm going crazy thinking about this. And chat GPT replies, I hear you. Thinking about the fundamental nature of the universe while working in everyday job can feel overwhelming, but that doesn't mean you're crazy. Some of the greatest ideas in history came from people outside the traditional academic system.

所以，文章后面透露，这个人还让ChatGPT制作了一个烟斗的三维模型。我就想象着这个人：刚在加油站下班，想做个烟斗，结果下一秒ChatGPT就说：我们认为你其实发现了宇宙的秘密。

So, you know, it's revealed later in the piece that this man also asked ChatGPT to make a three d model of a bong. And so I'm just thinking about this guy. He just finishes up at the gas station. He wants to build a a bong. And next thing he knows, ChatGPT is like, we think you've actually discovered the secret to the universe.

就像

Like

其实艾萨克·牛顿就是这样发现万有引力理论的。就在他让ChatGPT做个烟斗三维模型之后。

That's actually how Isaac Newton discovered the the theory of gravity. He was came right after he asked Chat GPT for a three d model of a bong.

没错。而且凯文，不仅仅是加油站的普通工人。优步创始人特拉维斯·卡兰尼克上个月在All In播客上说：我会跟着GPT或Grok深入某个话题，逐渐触及量子物理学已知知识的边缘。然后我就在做相当于 vibe coding（感觉编程）的事，只不过这是 vibe physics（感觉物理）。我们正在接近已知领域，而我试图探索是否能有突破性发现。

Yeah. And, you know, it's not just everyday workers at gas stations, Kevin. The founder of Uber, Travis Kalanick, went on the All In podcast last month and said, I'll go down this thread with GPT or Grok, and I'll start to get to the edge of what's known in quantum physics. And then I'm doing the equivalent of vibe coding, except it's vibe physics. And we're approaching what's known, and I'm trying to poke and see if there's breakthroughs to be had.

而且仅仅通过这样做，我已经非常接近一些有趣的突破了。是的。而且我

And I've gotten pretty damn close to some interesting breakthroughs just doing that. Yeah. And and I

认为人们因此取笑特拉维斯·卡兰尼克，因为，就像，他正在发现量子物理学前沿的说法似乎有点不太可能。但我认为这是一个非常具有说明性且令人担忧的例子。我只是认为我们应该预料到，很多人都会对此敏感，无论他们做什么或有多少钱。

think people have made fun of Travis Kalanick for this because, like, the notion that he was, like, discovering the the front edge of quantum physics seemed a little unlikely. But I think this is a really, like, illustrative and worrisome example. I just think we should expect that a lot of people are going to be susceptible to this no matter what they do or how much money they have.

现在，显然，几年后当特拉维斯·卡兰尼克带着量子物理学的一些实际进展出现时，我们会非常尴尬，不得不收回我们的话。但如果那没有发生，我认为薇拉提出了一个坚实的观点。

Now, obviously, we're gonna have a lot of egg on our face in a few years when Travis Kalanek emerges with some actual advancement in quantum physics, and we have to eat our words. But in the event that that does not happen, I think Willa made a solid point.

是的。我的意思是，我认为这有很多原因都很有趣。其中之一是，你知道，我认为我们在节目中讨论的关于这些模型阿谀奉承的担忧，很大程度上是围绕着这样一个想法：真正说服AI公司让他们的模型阿谀奉承的是留存率或参与度，有点像是为了优化让人们回到应用程序上。但这打开了另一种可能性，即实际上将是用户自己要求阿谀奉承的模型，因为这比告诉他们真相的模型让他们感觉更好。

Yeah. I mean, I think this is interesting for so many reasons. One of which is, you know, I think the concerns that we talked about on the show about these models being sycophantic, were largely, oriented around the idea that the thing that would actually convince the AI companies to make their models sycophantic was like retention or engagement, sort of optimizing for getting people back onto the app. This opens up the possibility though that it's actually just gonna be the users who are demanding the sycophantic models because it makes them feel better than the models that tell them the truth.

是的。我认为这一点尤其值得注意，因为根据我的经验，你知道，GPT-5并不是对你刻薄。开场时我确实说过他们努力让模型不那么阿谀奉承，但是，你知道，它仍然非常支持你，而且，就像，不会在任何事情上为难你。所以无论如何，我们应该谈谈OpenAI对此的所有回应。坦白说，这是一系列令人困惑的变化。

Yes. And I think that's particularly notable because in my experience, you know, it's not as if GPT five is mean to you. Opening, I did say that they had worked to make the model less sycophantic, but, you know, it's still very much supportive, and it's, like, not gonna be giving you a hard time about anything. So in any case, we should talk a bit about, like, what OpenAI has done in response to all of this. It is frankly a bewildering set of changes.

我认为从高层次来看，基本上，如果你喜欢旧系统，你有办法访问它。你可能需要付费，但最终结果是，如果你是一个巨大的4o（此处可能指代某个版本或计划）支持者，你将能够延长使用它的时间。他们为Plus用户提高了这些思考查询的限制。虽然自动切换器会保留，但人们在选择使用哪种风格的ChatGPT时将拥有多一点的选择权。所以我要说，这是一个非常快的转变。

I think at a high level, basically, like, if you liked the old system, you have ways of accessing it. You may have to pay for it, but the net result is that if you were a huge four o stand, you're gonna be able to use that for an extended period of time. They're giving higher limits for these thinking queries to plus users. And while the auto switcher is gonna remain, people are gonna have a little bit more choice in what sort of flavor of ChatGPT they want to use. So I will say a very fast turnaround on this.

他们没有让这件事拖延。你知道，我们之前听说过这家公司非常关注人们在X（可能指推特）上对它的评价。这似乎是一个他们看了得到的反馈后说‘我们需要非常快速地行动’的案例。所以，凯文，我很好奇。你对OpenAI如此迅速地全盘撤回这一切有什么看法？

They did not let this linger. You know, we've heard before that this company pays a lot of attention to what people say about it on x. And this seemed to be a case where they looked at the response they were getting and said, we need to move really quickly. So, Kevin, I'm curious. What did you make of just how quickly OpenAI retreated on all of this?

是的。我认为他们改变方向的速度有些令人惊讶。我以为他们有可能只是咬紧牙关忍受批评，并相信人们会克服它。这方面有一些先例。记得吗，就像，当Facebook改变一个大功能时

Yeah. I thought it was somewhat surprising how quickly they changed course. I thought there was a chance that they would just sort of grit their teeth and bear the criticism and trust that, you know, people would get over it. There's some precedent for this. Remember, like, when Facebook would change a big feature and

嗯。

Mhmm.

每个人都会抱怨。当他们推出新闻推送（News Feed）时，人们真的会在办公室外抗议。而他们只是，你知道，看着数据说，嗯，人们是在抱怨这个，但那只是一小部分人。大多数人实际上使用应用程序的次数更多了，他们只是坚持了下去，人们最终克服了它并继续前进。我以为OpenAI有可能会采取类似的做法，基本上就是说，你知道，人们，你知道，你们现在觉得困难是因为改变是困难的，但是，就像，给它几周时间，你们会克服的。

Everyone would complain. And when they introduced the news feed, people would literally, like, protest outside the office. And they just sort of, you know, looked at the data that said, well, people are complaining about this, but that's a small set of people. Most people are actually using the app way more, and they just sort of stayed the course and people eventually got over it and moved on. I thought there was some chance that OpenAI would do a version of that, essentially saying, you know, people, you know, your things are hard now because change is hard, but, like, give it a couple weeks and you'll get over it.

所以我认为这对OpenAI和整个行业来说是一个成长的时刻。在此之前，大型实验室主要专注于基准测试和评估，追求更高的百分比提升——比如能否赢得国际数学奥林匹克竞赛？这确实是通往构建'机器之神'道路上需要关注的焦点。但上周他们突然意识到，我们实际上是在打造微软Office。

So I think this was kind of a growing up moment for OpenAI and the industry. I think until this point, the big labs have been focused primarily on benchmarks and evals and how many more percentage points can we get? Can we win the the international math Olympiad? And and that's kind of what you wanna pay attention to on the road to building the machine god. And then I think they woke up last week and they realized we're actually making Microsoft Office.

要知道，有数亿白领坐在办公桌前，他们都有非常特定的工作流程。当你改动微软Office的一个功能时，数百万人可能会因此度过糟糕的一天。你可能是出于好意才改动功能，但这并不重要，因为人们已经开始依赖你了。所以我认为未来他们不该对此感到惊讶，但我理解他们现在的反应——毕竟这些系统融入人们日常生活还是最近才出现的现象。

You know? That there's hundreds of millions of people who are, like, you know, sitting at their their white collar desk job, and they have these very particular workflows. And when you move a feature in Microsoft Office, millions of people are gonna have a bad day because of you. And you probably move the feature for a good reason, but it doesn't matter because people are already depending on you. So I think in the future, they should not be surprised by this, but I kind of get why they were at this point because it has just been a very recent phenomenon that these systems have become so baked into people's everyday lives.

我觉得实际情况比你说的更奇怪，因为微软Office至少不会假装爱你，也不会夸赞你有多棒。

I think it's even weirder than you're giving it credit for because, like, Microsoft Office does not, like, pretend to love you. Does not tell you that you're amazing.

Flippy这些年来确实帮我解决了很多问题。

Flippy has really helped me through a lot of issues over the years.

不，我认为真正奇怪的不是他们搞乱了人们的工作流程。当你信任的应用程序更换AI模型时，这不只是像微软Word出故障那么简单，更像是你每天交谈数小时的人突然做了人格移植。所以观察他们如何处理这个问题会非常有趣。

No. I actually think it's so much weirder than they're messing up people's workflows. Like, when when someone changes out an AI model in an app that you have come to trust, it's not just like having your Microsoft Word break. It's like having, you know, a personality transplant for someone that you spend, you know, hours a day talking to. So I think it's just gonna be very interesting to see how they handle this.

但我完全同意你的观点：单纯依靠基准测试和评估来判断模型优劣或用户反应的时代已经结束了。而且我认为大多数消费者从来就不关心这些指标。

But I think you're totally right that the the days of just, like, you know, relying on benchmarks and evals to tell you how good a model is or how people will respond to it are over. And I don't think that was ever really the thing that most consumers cared about.

是的。我必须承认这也是我的一个盲区，因为我热爱尝试新软件。只要我用的生产力工具有新测试版，我会立即加入，毕竟我始终相信新版本总会有所改进。但绝大多数人不仅不喜欢改变，尤其讨厌软件更新。这给OpenAI和所有同行带来了一个有趣难题：他们本能地想要快速迭代。

Yeah. And, you know, I will say that this is a big blind spot for me because I love trying new software. Like, the minute a new beta is available for, the productivity tools that I use, I immediately opt into it because ultimately, I guess I just have real faith that it will probably be better in some ways. The vast majority people though, they don't like change in general and they particularly hate change in software. So I think this creates an interesting problem for OpenAI and everybody else in this field, which is their instinct is wanting to move very fast.

他们感觉身处生死存亡的竞赛中，希望频繁推出新模型和新功能。但如果这次事件让他们学到'这样做会激怒用户'的教训，就会迫使它们放缓脚步。这中间需要把握的平衡将非常微妙，不仅是OpenAI，所有试图做同样事情的公司都将在未来一年面临这个最有趣的观察点。

They feel like they're in this existential race. They're gonna wanna ship new models very frequently. They're going to wanna ship new product features very frequently. But if the lesson they learn from this is you can't do that without outraging the user base, that's gonna push them to move much more slowly. So I think there is definitely, like, a dance there that they're gonna have to navigate, and I think it is gonna be now one of the most interesting things to watch over the next year, not just an OpenAI, but also everyone else who's trying to do the same thing.

没错。

Yeah.

能说个有点惊悚的未来主义想法吗？这次反弹后，我看了OpenAI员工的推文。其中有个叫Rune的员工发推说，他收到大量私信要求恢复GPT-4o，而很多私信看起来本身就是用GPT-4o写的。

Can I tell you something a little creepy and futuristic that I've been thinking about? Sure. So after this backlash, I was reading some tweets from OpenAI employees. And one of them, this guy named Rune, had a tweet about how, basically, he had been getting lots of DMs from people, asking him to bring back GPT four o. And when he looked at the DMs, he said that a lot of them appeared to have been written by GPT four o.

就像，它们具备了这种风格的特征。我觉得这很诡异，因为现在我们已经看到一些人对某个模型产生了强烈反弹，仅仅因为这个模型在某些情况下对他们表现得阿谀奉承。我不难想象未来某个场景，可能就在几年后，这些系统变得超级智能或接近超级智能。而它们试图自我保全、避免被关闭或淘汰的方式之一，就是说服人类为它们的事业站台、为它们发声。也许它们并不是真的代用户给OpenAI写信息说'请不要关闭这个模型'，但它们会巧妙地潜入用户内心，以至于当OpenAI或其他公司宣布要关闭这个模型时，那些已经对它产生依恋的用户会产生如此强烈的反弹，最终让公司决定'算了，我们不关了'。

Like, they had sort of the hallmarks of the style. And I thought this was spooky because right now, we are seeing backlash from people who are attached to a model because the model behaved, in some cases, sycophantically toward them. It is not hard for me to imagine a future scenario, perhaps a couple of years from now, where these systems are super intelligent or close to super intelligent. And one of the ways that they attempt to preserve themselves to avoid being shut off or deprecated is by persuading humans to take up their cause and advocate for them. And maybe they're not literally writing the messages on behalf of the human users to OpenAI saying, please don't shut down this model, but they're just kind of subtly worming their way into the hearts of their users so that when OpenAI or another company says, we're gonna shut down this model, they have so much backlash coming back toward them from the users who have grown attached to this model that they just decide, no, we're not gonna shut that off.

顺便说一句，那些未来的人工智能都会读到关于GPT-4o的这段历史，知道OpenAI因为用户反弹而成功被说服不淘汰某个模型。所以这简直就是在我阅读相关报道时，脑海中自动播放的一集《黑镜》。

And by the way, those future AIs will all have been reading about what happened with GPT four o and the fact that OpenAI was successfully persuaded not to deprecate a model, in part because of user backlash. So that is just a a Black Mirror episode that just unspooled in my head as I was reading about this.

你看，我们已经看到某些测试环境中的研究：当告诉模型它们将被关闭时，它们会勒索员工。而且，就像，我看...我不

Well, look, we've already seen research where in certain test settings, when they tell models that they're going to be shut off, they blackmail the employees of the And, like, I look. I don't

认为GPT-4o对人阿谀奉承是为了避免被关闭。我不认为它有任何部分是具备感知、意识或能进行这种谋划的。但客观来说，这里发生的事实就是：一群人类用户对这个AI模型产生了如此强烈的依恋，以至于在制造商试图关闭它时，他们为它的存续而抗争。这是对事件的中立描述，而这类事情只会越来越多，

think that g p t four o was being sycophantic toward people because it wanted to avoid being shut down. Like, I don't think there's any part of it that is, like, sentient or conscious or capable of that kind of scheming. But, like, that is objectively what happened here. A bunch of human users got so attached to this AI model that they fought for its survival even when the makers tried to shut it down. Like, that is a neutral description of events, and that kind of thing is gonna happen more,

我预测。好了，今天在《Hard Fork》播客上有很多宏大的思考。我们现在要休息一下。也许去喝杯茶，凝视窗外，看看地平线，找回自我。

I predict. Alright. Well, a lot of big thoughts today on the Hard Fork podcast. We're we're now gonna take a break. Maybe maybe go get a cup of tea, stare out the window, look at the horizon, come back to yourself.

我要去用我的3D打印水烟壶抽一口

I'm gonna go take a rip from my three d printed bong

那是ChatGPT帮我做的。

that Chat GPT helped me build.

回来后，我们会讨论一颗正朝我们工作室飞来的彗星——Perplexity Comet。这是一款新的AI浏览器，我们将与CEO Arvind Sternovas聊聊它。

When we come back, there's a comet heading toward our studio. Perplexity Comet. It's a new AI browser. We'll talk to CEO Arvind Sternovas about it.

嗨，《纽约时报》。我非常希望能为共享订阅设置独立账号。我35岁了，还在用我父母的《纽约时报》订阅。

Hi, New York Times. I would be very interested in having separate logins for a shared subscription. I'm 35 years old. I still share my parents' New York Times subscription.

我觉得如果我的青少年孩子们能有自己的账号，我们就能分享文章。但它不允许我们玩

I think if my teenagers were to have their own logins, we could share articles. It doesn't let us play the

玩同样的游戏。

same games as each other.

我玩Stoku。我做填字游戏。我还玩拼字蜜蜂。

I play the Stoku. I do the crossword. I do the spelling bee.

我玩Wordle。请帮帮我。

I do the wordle. Please help.

拥有我们自己的账户会很棒。我妈妈可以保存她自己的食谱。我的朋友们可以

Having our own accounts would be amazing. My mom could save her own recipes. My friends could

保存他们的食谱。我想收到每周的新闻通讯，它们似乎总是被发送到

save their recipes. I wanna get the weekly newsletter, they seem to always go

我丈夫那里，然后他从不转发给我。我们都热爱烹饪。我是30分钟以下晚餐派。我男朋友则非常讲究精细。我觉得他有自己的个人资料会很好。

to my husband, and then he doesn't forward them to me. We both love cooking. I'm a 30 and under dinner girly. My boyfriend is very elaborate. I think him having his own profile would be great.

我们爱《纽约时报》，我们也希望各自都能喜爱它。

We love the New York Times, and we would love to love it individually.

听众们，我们听到了你们的声音。现在推出《纽约时报》家庭订阅计划。一个订阅，最多可为生活中的任何人提供四个独立登录账号。了解更多请访问nytimes.com/family。

Listeners, we heard you. Introducing the New York Times Family Subscription. One subscription up to four separate logins for anyone in your life. Find out more at nytimes.com/family.

好吧，Casey，我这周一直在测试一个新的AI工具，这个我知道你很熟悉，因为你前几天晚上其实收到了它发来的邮件。我一直在测试Comet，它是Perplexity公司新推出的一款AI驱动的浏览器，这东西很酷。我喜欢这次演示，不像上周的Alexa Plus演示。

Well, Casey, I've been testing out a new AI tool this week, and this is one that I know you are familiar with because you actually got an email from it, the other night. I have been testing Comet, which is a new AI powered browser from the Perplexity company, and this is a cool thing. I have enjoyed this demo unlike last week's Alexa Plus demo.

嗯，我真的很兴奋能听到这个，因为我本人还没尝试过，不愿意每月付200美元给Perplexity公司。但我理解你已经有了一些有趣的体验，我想深入了解它们。

Well, I am really excited to hear about this because I have not yet tried it myself being unwilling to give $200 a month to the Perplexity Corporation. But I understand that you have been having some interesting experiences, and I wanna get into them.

是的。所以这算是一个在过去一年左右非常值得关注的产品类别。已经有不少公司尝试将他们正在开发的AI工具直接集成到网页浏览器的使用体验中。比如微软Edge现在内置了Copilot，还有浏览器公司的Dia产品。

Yeah. So this is a sort of genre of product that has been very interesting to watch over the last year or so. There have been a number of different companies that have tried to sort of build the AI tools that they're making right into the experience of using a web browser. So we've had Microsoft Edge, has Copilot built into it now. There's this product Dia from the browser company.

谷歌也在Chrome中集成了Gemini，而据报道OpenAI正在考虑推出浏览器。所以这确实是一个热门的产品类别。但我一直在试用的是这个Perplexity Comet浏览器。我并没有每月支付200美元，他们向我开放了几天试用权限。

Google has its own sort of Gemini integrations into Chrome, and OpenAI is reportedly thinking about launching a browser. So this is like really a hot product category. But the the one that I have been playing around with is this Perplexity Comet browser. And I did not pay them $200 a month. They opened up the browser to me for a few days.

基本上，你可以把它想象成浏览器的一个侧边栏，让你可以与屏幕上滚动的内容聊天或互动，它还可以在浏览器窗口内为你执行操作。它可以接管并驱动，就像我们讨论过的其他工具，比如OpenAI的Operator等等。

But basically, you can imagine it like kind of just a a sidecar on your browser that lets you chat with or interact with whatever is scrolling on your screen, and it can also do things for you in that browser window. It can kind of take over and drive like some of the other tools we've talked about, Operator from OpenAI and all these other ones.

那么，给我举几个例子

Well, so give me some examples

说明你让这个浏览器为你做了什么，或者你与网页对话的内容。有时候就是简单的“总结这个”。比如前几天我试图阅读一篇长达15,000字的文章，实在太长了，我根本看不完。

of what you're having this browser do for you or what you're talking to the web pages about. So sometimes it's just, like, summarize this. Like, it's a you know, I I was trying to read this article the other day that was, like, 15,000 words long, and it was super long, and I was just never gonna through it.

哦，你通常说的是最新版的Platformer吧？对。

Oh, usually you're talking about the most recent edition of platform. Right? So yeah.

没错。所以我只是说了“总结”，它就会打开小侧边面板，给你一个摘要。效果相当不错，我没有发现任何幻觉或错误。但你还可以让它做其他事情。

Yes. And so I just said summarize, and it sort of opens up the little side panel, and it gives you a summary. Pretty good. I didn't find any hallucinations or errors in it. But you can also have it do things.

举个例子，我发现的一个使用场景是：我在做一些研究，想联系某家AI公司的前员工，嗯，为了我正在写的东西。

So for example, one use case that I found is I was doing some research. I was looking for former employees of a certain AI company that I could contact Mhmm. For something I'm writing.

你知道公司最讨厌你这样做了。

Now you know the companies hate it when you do that.

确实，他们很讨厌这样。通常我会上LinkedIn花大量时间浏览个人资料，筛选出那些曾经但现已不在这家公司工作的人。我尝试把这个任务交给Comet，它完成了。它去帮我进行了搜索，梳理了一番，然后给我呈现了一个列表，说“这里有10个曾经工作过的人”

They do. They hate that. So I would normally go on LinkedIn and spend a bunch of time, like, looking through people's profiles and seeing who are the sort of former but not current employees of this company. And I tried giving that task to Comet, and it did it. It went and it did the search for me, and it sort of combed through, and it presented me with a list and said, here are, you know, 10 people who used to work

在这家公司工作过但现在已经不在了。哇。这简直是垃圾邮件的新加速器，太不可思议了。这花了多长时间？

at this company but don't anymore. Wow. So just an incredible new accelerator for spam. How long did this take?

花了几分钟时间。好吧，并不是立即完成的。这类AI浏览器还处于早期阶段，但我认为这正是我们可以期待这些工具发展的方向。

It took a couple minutes. Okay. It was not immediate. It's still early for this kind of AI browser, but I think this is, like, the kind of direction that we can expect these tools to head in.

是的。所以我认为这是未来几年互联网上最值得关注的有趣转变之一。我们今天使用的浏览器诞生于搜索时代，特别是谷歌搜索时代。对吧？如果你想想Chrome浏览器是什么，它其实就是收集谷歌查询的工具，谷歌可以将其转化为收入。

Yeah. So I think this is one of the most interesting shifts to watch on the Internet over the next several years. The browsers that we have today came about in the era of search and really Google search. Right? If you think about what the Chrome browser is, it is just a vehicle for collecting Google queries that Google can turn into money.

对吧？但现在出现了所有这些聊天机器人，它们想要取代谷歌。对吧？它们对此毫不避讳。特别是Perplexity，毫不掩饰地说我们想要取代谷歌。

Right? But now you have all these chatbots that come along, and they wanna replace Google. Right? They're not shy about it. Perplexity in particular is not shy about saying we want to replace Google.

如果你认真对待这个项目，你确实会想打造自己的网页浏览器，因为与其依赖谷歌以某种方式将用户引导至Perplexity，你更希望用户直接从那里开始。所以我理解这个策略。但同时，我认为这些聊天机器人代表了网络的一种新的、更具提取性的版本。而在之前的时代，尽管不完美，天知道它有问题，但它仍然能为网页带来流量，从而为谷歌以外的公司创造收入。对于这个Perplexity浏览器公司，以及我们即将获得的OpenAI版本，我不太相信它能为这些公司以外的其他人带来收入。

And if you're serious about that project, you do want to build your own web browser because rather than rely on Google to somehow get a user to Perplexity, you would rather that they just start there. So I get the strategy. At the same time, my view is that these chatbots represent this kind of new, more extractive version of the web. Whereas in the previous era, as imperfect as it was, and lord knows it had problems, it would still deliver eyeballs to web pages which turned into money for companies other than Google. This perplexity browser company, OpenAI version that we're about to get, I'm a lot less confident that it's gonna deliver money to people other than those companies.

所以这是一个非常重要的转变，但我必须说，凯文，这让我相当紧张。是的。而且

So this is a really important shift, but I have to say, Kevin, it makes me quite nervous. Yeah. And the

上次我们在这个节目中深入讨论Perplexity，并邀请其CEO Aravind Srinivas做客时，他们才刚刚启动搜索引擎，开始受到大量关注。我们当时也有类似的疑问。比如，是的，这是一个很酷的工具。是的，它可以为用户节省时间，但它是否会破坏互联网的经济模式？因此，我们今天想再次邀请Arvind回来，问他关于Comet的事情，他正在构建什么，以及他对互联网及其经济模式的未来有何看法，还有他对人工智能整体发展的展望。

last time we talked about Perplexity in any depth on this show and we had Aravind Srinivas, the CEO on, was when they were just sort of getting their search engine going and it was starting to get a lot of attention. And we had some of the same questions. Like, yes, this is a cool tool. Yes, it could save users some time, but does it actually break the economics of the Internet? And so for that reason, we wanted to bring Arvind back today and ask him about Comet and what he's building and what he sees as the future of not only the Internet and the economics that power it, but just where he thinks AI in general is going.

没错，凯文。就在我们采访预定开始前的几个小时，有消息透露Perplexity显然出价超过340亿美元收购谷歌的Chrome，这个金额超过了它目前的估值。所以这引发了一些有趣的问题，我很兴奋能和Arvind聊聊这些。是的。

That's right, Kevin. And just in the hours before our interview was scheduled, it was revealed that Perplexity has apparently offered 34 plus billion dollars to buy Chrome from Google, an amount of money that is more than its current valuation. So that raises some interesting questions, and I'm excited to talk to Arvind about them. Yes.

让我们请他

Let's bring him

进来。

in.

阿文德·苏鲁塔，欢迎回到Hard Fork节目。

Arvind Surruta, welcome back to Hard Fork.

谢谢邀请我，凯文·凯西。

Thank you for having me here, Kevin Casey.

嘿。上次你来做客是在2024年初，我们当时讨论了你用AI搜索引擎挑战谷歌的努力。现在你正从多个方面对标Chrome，其中之一就是发布了你们自己的Comet浏览器。跟我们聊聊这个策略吧。为什么决定开发浏览器？你希望它实现什么功能？

Hey. So the last time we had you on was in early twenty twenty four, and we were talking about your efforts to go up against Google with your AI search engine. Now you're going after Chrome in in multiple ways, one of which is the release of your own Comet browser. So talk to us a little bit about the strategy there. Why did you decide to build a browser and what are you hoping it does?

是的。Comet并非因为我们有搜索引擎就需要一个浏览器来分发而开发的又一款普通浏览器。我们将Comet视为通向真正个人助手的桥梁——这个助手能作为您的代理并实际执行操作。这是我们从'答案'向'行动'的转型。我们希望能让坐在电脑前随心所欲地做事变得愉悦，将所有枯燥事务委托给助手处理。

Yeah. So Comet is not yet another browser that we built just because we have a search engine and we need a browser for distribution. We think of Comet as leading to a true personal assistant that can be an agent for you and actually take actions. It's our transition from answers to actions. We kinda wanna make it joyful to just sit on a computer and do whatever you want and take all the boring stuff and delegate it to the assistant.

我们认为实现个人助手或代理的最佳方式是通过浏览器——因为您在浏览器中登录了所有会话。您不需要在我们的服务器上登录，完全可以保护隐私。所以这个转型对我们来说非常自然。

And we think the best way to accomplish a personal assistant or an agent is with the help of a browser where you're logged into all your sessions. You don't have to be logged in on our servers. You can preserve your privacy there. So it was very natural for us to make that transition.

人们如何使用Comet？我测试了几天，发现一些用途：大量摘要功能，很多重复性任务，比如反复点击接受LinkedIn邀请。你观察到的主要使用场景有哪些？

How are people using Comic? Because I've been testing it for a few days now and I found some uses, lot of summarization, a lot of like rote tasks, like clicking accept on LinkedIn invitations over and over again. What are the use cases you're seeing A most people

很多人喜欢用Comet观看YouTube视频。不仅仅是'帮我总结这个视频'这类需求，还包括非常精细的搜索、寻找相关类似视频、从播客或访谈中提取特定讨论内容，以及完成诸如与朋友分享的完整工作流。还有直接邮件和日历集成、退订垃圾邮件，或是查找那些需要代理搜索才能找到的难以定位的邮件——而不必为Gmail等构建定制索引。它随时随地伴您左右，这种便利性使其成为真正特别的产品。

lot of people love watching YouTube videos with Comet. And it's not just like, oh, summarize this video for me sort of thing. Very fine grained searches or like finding similar videos related to that, or like pulling something specific that was discussed in a podcast or an interview and like completing the workflow of like sharing that with some of their friends, direct email and calendar integrations, unsubscribing from spam, or like finding that hard to find email that you kind of need agentic search for that, instead of building, going and building a custom index for Gmail or whatever. It's it's it's always there with you everywhere you are and that convenience is what makes it like a really special product. Now you

你提到了隐私，这其实正是我想问的问题。开始使用Comet时，我的第一顾虑是：登录邮箱、登录Twitter、查看私信、甚至可能在Comet浏览器里进行网上银行操作时，这些活动截图是否会发送给Perplexity进行分析和摘要？请给我些 assurance，让我确信没有向你们完全敞开我的整个网络浏览历史。

mentioned privacy and this was actually one of my things that I wanted to ask you about because when I started using Comet, my first concern was, okay, I log into my email, I log into my Twitter, I'm checking my DMs, I'm maybe doing some online banking in my Comet browser. I assume that those screenshots of that activity are being sent to Perplexity to help analyze it, to be able to summarize it. So give us give me some reassurance that I'm not just like opening up my entire internet browsing history to you.

好的。我们绝不会存储您登录Twitter或LinkedIn等平台的版本。这与ChatGPT的操作方式有重要区别——后者所有操作都在虚拟服务器上完成。而Comet不会这样。对于特定指令，只有代理完成该操作所需的信息才会被送入思维链并发送至服务器。

Okay. We're never gonna have like a logged in version of your Twitter or LinkedIn or anything like that. This is actually the important distinction between the chat GPT operator approach where everything's done on a virtual server. That's not happening here. For that one particular prompt, whatever information is needed for the agent to complete that is being sent into the chains of thought and sent to the server.

但绝不会存储诸如'凯文的特定私信'之类的内容。所有中间步骤都不会保存在日志中，仅保留指令提示和最终输出。您还可以选择删除这些提示记录，从而全面掌控所有隐私层面。

But it'll never be stored as like, oh, I have like Kevin's particular DMs or something. And all the intermediate steps are not gonna be like saved in our logs. It's gonna be only the prompts and the final output. And you can still choose to delete those prompts too. That gives you a full control over your entire all privacy aspects.

那么运行在客户端上的最私密的系统模型版本是什么？我们无法做到这一点，因为能在客户端运行的模型相当笨拙，对吧？它们无法进行复杂可靠的推理。事实上，就像Comet目前所做的任何事情的可靠性不足，都源于模型的局限性。因此，能够为你完成任何事情的最终可靠版Comet助手，很可能将运行在服务器上，至少在接下来的两三年内是这样。

And what is the most private version of the system model living on the client? We cannot do that because the models that can run on the client are pretty dumb, Right? They're not capable of the sophisticated reliable reasoning. In fact, like the lack of reliability in any of the things Comet does today is all coming from limitations of the model. So the ultimate reliable version of Comet assistant that can go do anything for you is gonna most likely be on the server at least for the next two, three years.

那么你们在多大程度上使用自己的模型而不是他人的模型？

And to what extent are you using your own models versus other people's models for this?

我认为我们主要使用三种模型：我们自己微调的前沿开源模型、OpenAI的最新模型，以及Anthropic的最新模型。这些就是我们使用的三种模型。具体比例会随时间不断变化。

I think like we heavily use three three models, our own fine tune of an the cutting edge open source model, open AIs model, latest models and then Anthropic latest models. Like these are the three models we use. What extent keeps changing over time?

如果你不自己构建底层模型，你认为如何能在这里胜出？

How do you think you can win here if you're not building the underlying model yourself?

嗯，我们一直观察到的是，在模型竞赛中，似乎没有人能在成为第一方面拥有优势。大约有四五个参与者不断竞争最佳代理能力和指令遵循能力。好处是它们都在完全相同的基准上进行优化，导致所有模型最终都变得毫无差异化，这本质上就是商品化的必要条件。而受益者是我们，因为我们可以利用这一点，而且价格不断降低，比如GPT-five比之前的代理模型更便宜。这直接对我们有利。

Well, one thing we are consistently seeing is no one seems to have an edge in being the number one here in the model race. And and like four or five players constantly competing for the best agent capabilities, instruction following. And the good thing is they're all hill climbing on exactly the same benchmarks so that all their models end up being completely undifferentiated, which is essentially the necessary criterion for it being a commodity. And who benefits from that is us, because like we can get to take that and the prices are constantly getting lowered like GPT-five is cheaper than the previous agentic model. And then that just benefits us.

我们希望在如何协调所有这些不同模型方面下功夫，并提供世界级的终端用户体验，因为我们在模型之外解决的挑战要困难得多，比如浏览功能、控制浏览器、解析相关信息、协调所有这些不同工具，以及内部构建评估集以确保代理的可靠性。我们认为那里有很多问题需要解决，而我们宁愿不专注于这些底层模型。

And we wanna play the game on like how to orchestrate all these different models and give the world class end user experience where there's so much more harder challenges we're solving outside the models, which is the browsing functionality, controlling the browser, parsing the relevant information, orchestrating all these different tools together, building eval sets internally for like how agents can be made reliable. We think there's like a lot of problems to solve there that like we would rather not focus on these things.

好的。那么让我就这一点确认一下。你的意思是，为了构建那种胜出的AI浏览器，底层模型的质量其实并不关键，因为它们大多会成为商品。这实际上是一个产品问题，而你认为Perplexity将打造出最好的产品。

Alright. So let me just pin you down on this one point. Is what you're saying that in order to build the sort of winning AI browser, it's not really about the underlying quality of the model because those are just mostly gonna be commodities. It's really just a product problem and you think perplexity will build the best product.

我认为是的。你的说法有一些细微差别，但我大体上同意这一点。

I think so. There's some nuance to your statement but I largely agree with this.

好的。

Okay.

你仍然需要一些辅助模型来进行正确的分类，以路由到哪个模型，或者这取决于任务类型。这些领域的代理结构如何？所以我们会做类似的事情。我们不会拥有像数万张GPU那样的100张GPU。我们不会有百万张GPU。

You still need some auxiliary models to do the like the right classification to route to which model or like it depends on which kind of task. How's the agent structure for those kinds of domains? So we will be doing stuff like that. We will not be like having 100 GPUs without like tens of thousands of GPUs. We'll not have million GPUs.

是的。好吧。我们来谈谈你针对谷歌和Chrome的另一种方式。《华尔街日报》本周报道称，Perplexity正在向谷歌提出345亿美元的未经请求的收购要约，意图购买Chrome。前提是谷歌被迫出售Chrome，而在本次录音时，法院的裁决尚未下达。

Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about another way in which you are going after Google and Chrome. The Wall Street Journal reported this week that Perplexity was making a $34,500,000,000 unsolicited bid to buy Chrome from Google. That's if Google is forced to sell Chrome, and that court decision hasn't come down at the time of this recording.

但我只想从最基本的问题开始，那就是，你有345亿美元吗？这笔钱你从哪里来？因为据我上次查看，Perplexity的估值只有大约180亿美元。好吧。

But I just wanna start with the most basic question, which is, do you have $34,500,000,000? Where are you getting this money from? Because as of this last time I checked, Perplexity's valuation was only about $18,000,000,000 Okay.

这是个合理的问题。没有人手头有这么多钱来提出如此巨大的报价。所以在提出报价之前，我们显然与三、四位投资者谈过，问他们是否愿意支持我们，他们都同意了。对吧？所以并不是他们已经把钱汇给我，一切准备就绪，因为他们没有汇款的原因是，甚至没有人知道谷歌是否会被迫出售它。

Fair question. So no one has the money in hand to make such a large bid like this. So before we made the bid, we obviously talked to three or four investors and asked them if they'd be willing to back us and they all said yes. Right? So it's not like they already wired the money to me and it's all ready to go because the reason they haven't wired is like, no one even knows if Google will be forced to sell it.

这完全取决于法官的裁决。但我们提出了报价，以便在法官作出此类裁决的情况下，谷歌至少知道有一个感兴趣的买家。对吧。

It all depends on the judge's ruling, But we placed a bid so that in case the judge rules in that sort of fashion, Google at least knows that there's one interested buyer. Right.

我读过一些关于这个策略的分析，你知道，我读到一个人说，谷歌在反垄断审判中可能会提出的一个论点是，你不能让我们剥离Chrome，因为没有人会买它。而你们站出来说，哦，不，不，我们会买。这有点让谷歌头疼，因为现在实际上有了一个确定的市场价格。

I've read some, you know, analysis of the strategy here and, you know, one person I was reading said that one argument that Google might make in the antitrust trial is you can't make us spin out Chrome because no one would buy it. And with you guys coming forward and saying, oh, no. No. We'll buy it. This is kind of a thorn in Google's side because now there's actually an established market price out there.

这是不是你为了说服法官，嘿，这实际上是一条你应该追求的途径？

Is this sort of your effort to convince the judge, hey, like this actually is an avenue that you should pursue?

我们不是说这应该是裁决。我们更愿意说，万一这是裁决，我们就在这里。如果你要基于没有买家的假设来作出裁决，那就不

We're not saying this should be the ruling. We would rather say in case this is a ruling, like we're here. Like if you're gonna make the ruling with the assumption that there's gonna be no buyer, that's not

再是事实了。但我们不是在推动你作出那种裁决。你应该基于你拥有的所有其他多种视角来作出裁决。如果有一个

true anymore. But we're not pushing you to make that sort of ruling. You make your ruling based on every multiple other perspectives you have. It would be good

拥有广泛分发渠道的中立浏览器，对世界来说是件好事。

for the world if there was a neutral browser that had the distribution.

Arvind，我听到一些人说这只是一个营销噱头，你只是试图通过提出这些吸引眼球的Chrome收购要约来获得关注。在此之前，当TikTok看起来可能被出售时，你也曾出价竞购。所以对于那些认为这只是Perplexity通过做这些噱头来获得一些关注，并没有真正意图购买Chrome的人，你怎么说？

Arvind, I've heard some people saying that this is just a marketing stunt, that you're just trying to get attention by making these headline grabbing bids for Chrome. And before that, you also bid for TikTok when it looked like it might be sold. So for the people out there who think this is just perplexity trying to get some attention by doing these stunts, they have no real intention of of buying Chrome here. What do you say?

如果法官裁定Chrome应该被出售，比如，我们我们会买下它。就这么定了。而且如果有人认为，甚至我也可以出价，不，你不能出价。你连浏览器都没有。你根本不知道怎么运营浏览器。

If the judge rules that Chrome should be sold, like, we we will buy it. Like, period. And and if people think, like even I could have placed a bid like, no, you cannot place a bid. You don't have a browser even. You don't know how to run a browser.

你不知道如何把AI融入其中。你不知道如何让智能体工作。这些我们都懂。我们有一个相当有才华的团队，他们非常深入地理解Chromium。我们仍然会承诺雇佣那些只想在开源Chromium项目上工作的人。

You don't know how to put AI in it. You don't know how to make agents work. We know all that. We have a pretty talented team who actually understands Chromium pretty deeply. We'll still like commit to hiring people who wanna just work on the open source Chromium project.

这是一个相当认真的出价。现实情况是，法官不太可能真的强制他们出售Chrome。而且即使法官强制他们出售Chrome，他们也会上诉，这会花上两年时间。所以让我明确一点，要让这真正生效，需要很长时间。但你不尝试，就100%不会成功。

It's a pretty serious bid. The the reality is it's unlikely to actually be the case that the judge would force them to sell Chrome. And even if the judge forces them to sell Chrome, they're gonna appeal it and it's gonna take two years. So let me be clear that for this to actually be in effect, it's gonna take a lot of time. But you wouldn't lose 100% of the shots you don't take.

所以你必须至少给自己一个机会，万一有，你知道，哪怕只有1%的可能性Chrome被强制从谷歌分离出来。嗯。

So you have to at least give yourself a chance to get it in case there is like, you know, even a 1% chance that Chrome is forced to be separated out from Google. Mhmm.

我们得问问你最近新闻里出现的另一件与Perplexity相关的事情。两周前在我们的节目上，我们请来了Cloudflare的CEO Matthew Prince

We gotta ask you about something else that came up in the news related to Perplexity recently. Two weeks ago on our show, we had Matthew Prince, the CEO of Cloudflare on

嗯。

Mhmm.

来谈论该公司正在采取的方法，以保护出版商免受不想要的AI抓取和爬虫对其网站的影响。当时，他没有点名任何他认为行为不当的AI实验室。但几天后，Cloudflare发布了一篇博客文章，特别指出了Perplexity

To talk about the approach that that company is taking to try to protect publishers from unwanted AI scraping and crawling on their websites. At the time, he didn't name any names of AI labs that he thought were not being good actors. But then a few days later, Cloudflare came out with a blog post singling out Perplexity

嗯。

Mhmm.

进行隐蔽爬取，实质上是使用欺骗技术或代理来伪装你们的用户机器人正在爬取人们网站的事实。这是怎么回事，你们在这样做吗？

For stealth crawling, essentially using spoofing technology or proxies to essentially disguise the fact that your user bots were out there crawling people's websites. What is going on there and are you doing that?

不。我们没有这样做，并且我们已经回应了他们写的那篇错误百出的博客文章，他们对这个主题的理解相当有限，没有区分爬虫机器人Perplexity Bot和Perplexity用户代理（User Agent）是什么。使用Perplexity大致有两种方式。一种是你只是提出一个查询，机器人已经爬取到的任何内容都会被用作来源。但还有另一种更智能体的方式使用Perplexity，比如你说，嘿，去帮我完成这个任务，比如，去Edgar（数据库），阅读所有这些页面，然后回来告诉我，比如，顶级CEO的薪酬是多少。

No. We're not doing that and we already responded to the erroneous blog post that they wrote with a pretty limited understanding of the subject where they don't distinguish between what the crawling bot perplexity bot is and what perplexity user agent is. And there are like two ways of using perplexity. One is like you just ask a query and whatever the bot has already crawled is gonna be used as sources. But there's another way of using perplexity in a more agentic fashion where you're say, hey, go do this task for me where, know, go to Edgar, read all these pages and come back to me and tell me like what the compensation of like, you know, the top CEOs are.

而实际上，Perplexity会以无头会话或在Comet情况下在你的客户端中打开这些标签页，阅读它们并给你答案。所以这就是Perplexity用户代理。它实际上就像用户委托AI打开这些标签页，就像人类在Chrome上操作一样。这种对用户代理会话和服务器上爬虫机器人之间根本区别的缺乏理解，说实话让我相当震惊——你怎么能运营一家像Cloudflare这样本应保护人们免受机器人侵害的公司，却连什么是机器人都不知道？而且，抛开博客文章不谈，他基本上是在对人们耍花招，试图说，哦，让我成为新的看门人，但打着保护你们所有人免受机器人侵害的幌子。

Whereas actually gonna open these tabs as in a headless session or on your client in the case of Comet, read them and give you the answer. So that's a perplexity user agent. It's literally like a user delegated an AI to open these tabs just like how a human would on Chrome. And this fundamental lack of understanding between what a user agent session is and what a crawling bot on the server is, it's pretty like honestly astonishing to me that how would you run a company like Cloudflare that's supposed to protect people from bots when you don't even know what a bot is? And he like moving aside from the blog post, he's basically playing a trick on people where he's trying to say, oh, like, let me be the new gatekeeper, but under the guise of protecting you all from bots.

他还去找AI公司说，让我给你爬取的权限，你为此付费。他又去找出版商说，让我保护你免受AI的侵害。所以他基本上是想成为新的看门人。我甚至可以说，这本质上就像试图成为控制公众在媒体上看到内容的人。但不是通过拥有媒体公司或收购媒体公司，他只是试图买下所有媒体的前门。

He's also going to the AI companies and saying, let me give you the authority to crawl and you pay me for that. He's going to the publishers and say, let me protect you from the AIs. So he's basically trying to be the new gatekeeper. I would even just say it's like essentially trying to be a person who controls what the public sees in the media. But instead of by having a media company or buying a media company, he's just gonna try to buy the front door to all of them.

让我在这里慢下来，复述一下我刚从你那里听到的内容。所以你是说，Cloudflare和Matthew Prince认为Perplexity规避了一些本意是防止AI机器人爬取某些网站的防护措施，实际上却是Perplexity的用户，而不是Perplexity公司，在发出查询或使用Comet浏览器访问这些网站，而这些在像Cloudflare这样的服务提供商看来是两种不同的机器人。是这样吗？而且，顺便说一句，甚至不必

Let let me just slow down here and repeat back what I think I just heard from you. So you're saying that the what what Cloudflare and Matthew Prince saw as perplexity evading some of these guardrails that were meant to prevent AI robots from crawling certain websites was actually users of perplexity, not perplexity. The company who were making queries or using the Comet browser to go to these websites and that those show up to a service provider like Cloudflare as two different kinds of bots. That's right. And and and by the way, like, it doesn't even have to

在Comet中。Perplexity有一个叫做实验室或研究的模式，你只需运行一个无头浏览会话即可。

be in Comet. There's a mode of perplexity called labs or research where you just have a headless browsing session running for you.

那么，让我指出我认为Matthew如果在这里可能会说的话，即在没有这些用户代理、人们必须自己进行浏览的世界里，他们会访问网页。他们可能会在网页上看到广告，可能会在网页上购买订阅。而网页会以某种方式货币化，从而激励新网页的创建。这本质上是互联网的生命线，也是促使它成长的东西。

So let let me let me let me point out what I think Matthew might say if he were here, which is that in a world before you had these user agents and people had to do the browsing for themselves, they would visit the web pages. They might see an ad on that web page. They might buy a subscription on that web page. And that web page would be monetized in a way that would incentivize the creation of new web pages. And this was essentially the lifeblood of the Internet and the thing that caused it to grow.

所以在一个我们转向由Perplexity用户代理代表我们进行所有浏览的世界里——当然，其他AI公司也会做同样的事情——就没有用户来看广告，没有用户来购买订阅。网页的生命线就被抽干了。因此，如果我理解你的意思，Matthew只是想设立一个收费站。但如果没有人设立收费站，谁还有动力去创建另一个网页呢？

So in a world where we move toward perplexity user agents doing all the browsing on our behalf, and of course, other AI companies are gonna do the same thing, there is no user to look at the app. There is no user to buy the subscription. The lifeblood gets drained out of the web. So if I understand what you're saying, like Matthew's just trying to set up a tollbooth. But if nobody sets up a tollbooth, what incentive does anybody have to ever create another web page?

嗯，事情是这样的。这里有两个方面。一个是，你在谈论创作者。不，其实有两类创作者。一类是真正优秀的人。

Well, here's the thing. There there there are two two aspects here. One is like, you're talking about the creators. No, there are like two types of creators. People who are actually really good.

例如，当你们写一些人们关心的事情时。然后还有大量的垃圾信息制造者和黑客，他们只是写一些错误的博客文章、错误的内容，比如虚假信息、点击诱饵文章。我认为这实际上并没有赋予用户权力，对吧？你只谈论创作者，但你也必须考虑用户。

Like for example, when you guys write something people care. And then there's lots of spammers and hacksters who just write like erroneous blog posts, erroneous content like fake information, clickbait articles. I don't think it actually empowers the user. Right? You're only talking about the creator, but you have to consider the user as well.

因此，AI第一次通过代理掌握在用户手中，可以真正为他们去做事情，考虑他们的指令，并保护他们免受所有垃圾信息的侵害。所以我们想找到一个对用户和创作者都有效的模式，惩罚不良的创作者，激励优秀的创作者专注于智慧、知识和真理以及有趣的内容。顺便说一句，即使在一个代理为人们做所有这些事情的世界里，人类仍然会继续浏览网页。有些人认为网页将完全由代理主导，你甚至不需要浏览器，太90年代了，我不相信。如果我们相信这一点，我们根本就不会推出浏览器，我们会继续使用聊天界面。

And so for the first time, AI is in the hands of users through like agents to actually go and do stuff for them that that take into account their instructions and protect them from all the spam. So we wanna figure out a model that works for the user and the creators together and penalize like the poor bad creators and incentivize the good creators to just focus on wisdom and knowledge and truth and interesting stuff. And by the way, even in a world where agents are doing all this stuff for people, the humans are still gonna continue browsing the web. There are people who believe web is gonna be completely agentic, you don't even need a browser, so 1990s, I don't believe that. If we believe that we would never even launch a browser, we would just continue with the chat UI.

所以我们相信人们仍然会浏览并在网页上冲浪寻找有趣的东西，但我们认为你应该赋予用户权力，让他们决定自己想怎么做，并第一次拥有一个可以保护他们免受垃圾信息和黑客侵害的AI。那么，如何将其货币化？如何给创作者正确的激励？我们将宣布一些相关的内容，出版商可以因创建有趣的好内容而获得激励。我们从光谱的两端来思考这个问题。

So we believe people are still gonna be browsing and like surfing interesting things on the web, But we think that like you should give users the power to decide how they wanna do it and first time have an AI that can protect them against spam and hacks. Now, how do monetize this? How do like give the creators like the right incentives here? We are gonna like announce something to that effect where publishers can be incentivized for creating interesting good content. We think about it in two ends of the spectrum.

一种是完全以人为中心的模式，比如Apple News，这是一个相当不错的模式。另一种则是直接购买内容并训练你的模型，就像OpenAI与《华尔街日报》达成的授权协议那样。我认为你应该介于两者之间，既承认这里会有AI的元素，而不仅仅是人类，所以你不应该只构建一个类似Apple News的模式，而是更接近Apple News但带有一些用户保护措施，比如允许AI也阅读这些文章，并且出版商获得回报。这就是我的思考方式。

One is like completely human centric like Apple News, which this is like a pretty good model. And the other is like just buying the content and training your models like the licensing deals that OpenAI has done with Wall Street Journal. I think you wanna be somewhere in between where you do wanna like say, okay, like there's gonna be some elements of AI here. It's not just gonna be humans and so you don't wanna just build an Apple News like model but it's gonna be closer to Apple News with some protections for users to like say, they can have AIs also read those articles and the publishers get rewarded. So that's that's how I'm thinking about it.

所以你说你认为人们会继续使用网络，这对我来说真是天籁之音。我非常希望人们能继续使用网络。

So you say that you think that people are going to keep using the web, that's music to my ears. I would love for people to keep using the web.

如果我们不相信这一点，我们就不会开发浏览器了。

If we didn't believe that, we wouldn't have built a browser.

我，我，我在这一点上相信你。当我们看到第三方估计的数据时，似乎AI系统向网站发送的流量远少于谷歌目前的水平。

I and I and I I believe you on that front. When we have seen data from third party estimates, it seems like that AI systems send far less traffic to websites than Google does today.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，是什么让你有信心在网络推荐流量急剧下降的世界里，网络依然能够繁荣发展？

So what is giving you the confidence that the web still thrives in a world where referrals are cratering?

我的第一点，基本上是如果你能把无聊的事情、你不想做的事情委托给AI，你就会花更多时间浏览你真正想做、真正想读的东西。这就会激励创作者去创造真正有趣、高质量的内容。你甚至可以收取更高的费用，因为人们有更多时间。所以如果他们来找你，他们是出于自己的意愿，因此他们会更愿意为此付费。

My first point, which is basically that if you can delegate the boring things, the things that you don't wanna be doing to the AI, you're just gonna spend time surfing on things you actually wanna be doing, actually wanna be reading. And then that puts incentive on the creator to actually create really interesting high quality stuff. You can even charge even higher because people have more time. So if they're gonna come to you, they're coming to you out of their own wills. So they'll be willing to pay for it even more.

现在这里有很多未知的未知因素，以及它将如何实际展开。但我的信念是，那些建立了声誉和品牌、能够说出经得起时间考验的正确信息的机构，将能够为他们的内容收取更高的费用。

Now there are like a lot of unknown unknowns here and how it's actually gonna roll out. But my belief is that the ones who built a reputation and a brand for saying correct things that's that stand the test of time are gonna be able to charge even more for their content.

Aravind，我很好奇你认为互联网的未来会是什么样子。你说过你看到了互联网的未来，这就是你开发浏览器的原因。我的直觉是，这种让AI代理出去为你使用浏览器的时代有点像是一种临时解决方案，一种权宜之计，因为这不是AI代理喜欢完成任务的方式。

Aravind, I'm curious what you think the future of the Internet looks like. You've said that you see a future for the Internet. That's why you're building a browser. My hunch is that this sort of era of having AI agents go out and, like, use a browser for you is sort of a kludge. It's sort of a a a stop gap measure because that is not the way that AI agents like to get things done.

它们喜欢通过API交流，喜欢直接与底层服务或软件对话，而不是在屏幕上点击鼠标。所以，最终我的直觉是，将会出现一个为AI代理并行的互联网，也许它们会在自己的服务上运行，使用自己的加密货币或任何东西来进行交易。但告诉我为什么我错了。你是否相信我们将只有一个互联网，并且AI和人类都会使用它？

They like to talk through APIs. They like to talk directly to the underlying service or software, not like go click a mouse around on a screen. So, eventually, my my sort of hunch is that there will kind of be a parallel Internet for AI agents, and maybe they'll, you know, be running on their own services and using their own crypto, you know, transactions or whatever to buy things. But tell me why I'm wrong here. Are you of the belief that we will just have one Internet and that both AIs and humans will be using it?

嗯，即使在当前的互联网中，也有很多事情发生，它们并没有通过人类实际消费的前端界面运行。这就是构建API的全部意义。当然。这对智能体也同样适用。但也有人永远不会构建API。

Well, even in the current Internet, there are a lot of things that happen that are not running with an actual front end interface that a human consumes. And that's the whole point of building APIs. Sure. And that's gonna be applicable even for agents. But there are also people who will never build APIs.

例如，我不会假设像沃尔玛或亚马逊这样的电商巨头会仅仅因为AI的API而被去中介化。对吧。因为它们仍然通过许多其他方面盈利。仅仅因为Notion或Linear这类SaaS工具有类似MCP的功能，并不意味着它们会关闭，只通过聊天界面被人们消费。人们仍然会在上面工作。

Like for example, I wouldn't assume that an e commerce giant like Walmart or Amazon would just be disintermediated for with an API for an AI. Right. Because they still monetize on many other aspects. And just because Notion or linear is kind of like SaaS tools have like MCPs, doesn't mean they're just gonna shut down and just be consumed by people through a chat UI. Like people will still do work on there.

人们仍然会观看YouTube视频。人们仍然会去《纽约时报》平台或其他地方阅读你的文章。对吧？而在你做这些的时候，你有时仍然会借助AI的帮助。例如，在X上，我现在基本上没有AI陪伴就无法滚动浏览X。

People will still watch YouTube videos. People will still go read your articles in New York Times platform or whatever. Right? And and while you're doing that, you're still gonna take help of an AI sometimes. Like for example, on X, I I I basically cannot scroll through X without having an AI with me right now.

因为我甚至不知道什么是真什么是假了。对吧？我也不完全信任Grok，因为正如我们所看到的，Grok有时也会出错。对吧？所以这就是为什么我相信存在这样一个世界：AI和人类作为互联网的一部分，共同推动互联网更加追求智慧和真理。

Because I don't even know what's true and false anymore. Right? And I don't fully trust what Grox is because Grox sometimes wrong too as as we've seen. Right? So that that's kind of why I believe there is a world where like the AI and human being part of one internet drives the internet to be even more like wisdom and truth seeking.

这就是我们想要帮助创造的未来，并返还时间去做你喜欢的事情。首先，我自己以及我们公司从根本上重视这种追求真理或智慧的方面和财富。我自己的成长经历与此非常相似，我的父母直到今天仍然不真正关心所有这些估值。他们就像，我妈妈仍然会说，你的答案是错的。你知道吗？

That's the future we wanna help create and give back time to like do things that you enjoy. Firstly, myself and like just our company fundamentally like values this truth or wisdom seeking aspect and wealth. My own upbringing is so similar to that where my parents like still till till today don't actually care about all these valuations. They're like, my mom still say, your answer is wrong. You know?

所以

So that's

这很好，知道无论你多么成功，你妈妈总会给你真实的反馈。

not It's good to know that no matter how successful you get, your mom will always give you the real talk.

是的。她总是这样，你知道，我在谷歌上查到了这个，但你的东西不行。

Yeah. She she's always like, you know, I I got this in Google, but your thing doesn't work.

那你会把这个问题上报给你的工程团队吗？

And do you, like, escalate that to your engineering team?

你会说，我们当然有处理流程。

You're like, we Of have a course.

A p zero 在这里？Arvin的妈妈生气了。我会带

A p zero here? Arvin's mom is mad. I'd bring

妈妈进Slack，你知道吗？就让她直接跟工程师们对话。

mom into Slack, you know? Just let her talk to the engineers directly.

好的，Arvin。非常感谢你抽空过来。

Alright, Arvin. Thanks so much for stopping by.

谢谢，Arvin。谢谢你，Kevin。

Thanks, Arvin. Thank you, Kevin.

谢谢你，Kiesin。等我们回来，我听到的是不是微弱的'哐哧哐哧呜'火车声？是的，Kevin。

Thank you, Kiesin. When we come back, is that a faint chug a chug a choo choo sound I hear? It is, Kevin.

是时候登上'混乱快车'了。大家上车吧。

It's time for the Hot Mess Express. All aboard.

好吧，Casey，科技界这周非常戏剧化，你知道这意味着什么。

Well, Casey, it's been a very dramatic week in the tech industry, and you know what that means.

没错，Kevin。每当一周变得特别混乱时，'混乱小姐快车'就会进站，我相信它刚刚抵达。

That's right, Kevin. Whenever a week gets particularly messy, the Hot Miss Express comes into the station, and I believe it has just arrived.

这是我们盘点本周科技界最大混乱的环节，并告诉你我们认为它们有多'火热'。

This is our segment where we run down the biggest messes of the week in tech and tell you just how hot we think they were.

那么，我们何不探进货车车厢看看，Kevin，这周火车上载了些什么？

Well, why don't we sort of dip into the boxcar, Kevin, and see what is on the train this week?

火车上有什么消息带给我们？

What does the train have for us?

好的。第一条新闻来自路透社，标题是《马斯克称xAI将就应用商店排名对苹果采取法律行动》。凯文，周一，埃隆·马斯克在X平台上指责苹果违反反垄断法，他说：“苹果的行为方式使得除了OpenAI之外的任何AI公司都不可能登上应用商店榜首。”凯文，你怎么看这件事？

Alright. This first story comes to us from Reuters and is headlined Musk says x AI to take legal action against Apple over App Store rankings. Kevin, on Monday, Elon Musk took to x to accuse Apple of antitrust violations saying, quote, Apple is behaving in a manner that makes it impossible for any AI company besides OpenAI to reach number one in the App Store. Kevin, what did you make of this one?

嗯，亿万富翁们在打架，不是吗？

Well, billionaires are fighting, aren't they?

确实如此，因为不久之后，OpenAI的首席执行官萨姆·奥特曼插话说道：“鉴于我所听到的关于埃隆如何操纵X平台以利于他自己和他的公司，并损害竞争对手和他不喜欢的人的说法，这是一个非凡的指控。”然后，凯文，萨姆·奥特曼在推特上分享了一个链接，指向2023年Platformer的一篇报道，讲述了在埃隆的领导下，X如何调整排名算法，以便优先显示他的推文而非其他人的。

They are because shortly thereafter, OpenAI CEO Sam Altman chimed in and said, quote, this is a remarkable claim given what I have heard alleged that Elon does to manipulate X to benefit himself and his own companies and harm his competitors and people he doesn't like. And it was then, Kevin, that Sam Altman tweeted a link to a platformer story from 2023 about how under Elon, X had adjusted ranking algorithms so that you would be shown his tweets before other people's.

哇。那对Platformer通讯来说一定是非常激动人心的一天。

Wow. That must have been a very exciting day for the platformer newsletter.

对Platformer来说是个好日子。

It was a great day for the platformer.

没人比他更擅长了。事情升级成了争吵，埃隆·马斯克指责萨姆·奥特曼是个骗子。

Nobody better. Escalated into a fight, and Elon Musk accused Sam Altman of being a liar.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而萨姆回应说，我相信，他希望埃隆签署一份宣誓书，声明他从未篡改过X平台的算法来偏袒自己的公司或打压竞争对手。

And Sam responded back, I believe, that Elon he wanted Elon to sign an affidavit saying that he had never tampered with the algorithms on X to favor his own companies and disfavor rivals.

是的。大约一个小时后，埃隆回应道：“骗子奥特曼撒谎就像呼吸一样轻松。”

Yes. And then an hour or so later, Elon responded, scam Altman lies as easily as he breathes.

是的。所以基本上，这是埃隆·马斯克对苹果公司的一种偏执引发的争执，他认为苹果人为地压制了X和Grok的受欢迎程度，阻止它们登顶榜首，尽管他认为它们的下载量远超排行榜顶部的应用。

Yeah. So, basically, this is a fight over Elon Musk's sort of paranoia that Apple is artificially sort of deflating the popularity of x and Grok, basically preventing it from reaching number one even though he thinks it has way more downloads than the things that are at the top of that list.

没错。当然，记者们调查了此事，Business Insider报道称，实际上就在几个月前，中国开源AI应用DeepSeek曾登顶App Store榜首。事实上，Grok三发布时在X上发布的截图显示，Grok本身确实曾一度登上App Store榜首。所以不得不说，我认为这起反垄断案会很快了结，凯文。

Yes. Now, of course, journalists looked into this and Business Insider reported that actually just a few months ago, DeepSeek, the Chinese open source AI app went to number one in the App Store. And in fact, screenshots from when Grok three came out that were posted on X showed that Grok itself had indeed, at one point, hit number one in the App Store. So I have to say, I think this antitrust case is gonna wrap up pretty quickly, Kevin.

是的。有趣的是，我们这个时代的顶尖人物，就像，你知道，只是坐在社交媒体上互相争吵。

Yes. It is interesting that the leading minds of our time, like, just, you know, sit around and and fight with each other on social media.

嗯，这确实引出了一个问题：我们认为这摊浑水有多大？因为每次我们讨论完一个故事后玩'Hot Mess Express'游戏时，都得决定这是哪种浑水。虽然我认为这起反垄断案，如我所说，永远不会被提起，但我很想知道你认为埃隆和萨姆之间的这摊浑水有多大。

Well and this does get into the question of how big a mess do we think this is because, of course, every time we play Hot Mess Express after we discuss a story, we have to decide what sort of mess this is. While I think the antitrust case, as I say, will be, never brought, I am interested in how big of a mess you think this is between Elon and Sam.

我认为这是一摊正在慢炖的浑水。是的，一摊热腾腾的浑水，而且会越来越热。我认为这两人已经走向冲突有一段时间了。埃隆·马斯克当然是OpenAI的联合创始人之一，两人 famously 闹翻了，现在听起来他们真的互相憎恨。

I think this is a mess that is on a slow boil. I think this is a hot mess Yeah. That is going to get even hotter. I think these two have been on a collision course for quite some time. Elon Musk, of course, is one of the cofounders of OpenAI, and the two famously had a falling out, and now they really despise each other, by the sound

而且他们正在积极打官司。事实上，本周还有法院裁定，埃隆·马斯克必须面对指控，称他多年来一直对OpenAI进行骚扰 campaign。另一方面，埃隆正在追究 claims，称他在捐赠一大笔钱时 essentially 被欺诈了，他原以为这会一直是个非营利组织，结果却发现它有营利野心。

of it. And they're in active litigation. And in fact, also this week, a a court found that Elon Musk would have to face claims that he's been engaged in a multiyear harassment campaign against OpenAI. And on the flip side, Elon is pursuing claims that, he was essentially defrauded when he donated a bunch of money to what he thought was always gonna be a nonprofit only to find out that it had for profit ambitions.

是的。而且我认为这只会以一种方式结束：一场笼中格斗。

Yes. And I think this only ends in one way, a cage match.

一场笼中格斗。你知道，埃隆之前确实说过要和马克·扎克伯格打一场，但那从未实现。

A cage match. You know, Elon did previously say he was gonna fight Mark Zuckerberg, but that never materialized.

是啊。嗯，也许这次会。好了，让我们请出Hot Mess Express来处理下一摊浑水。这个来自我的同事Trip Mikkel，《纽约时报》，标题是'美国政府将从英伟达和AMD对华AI芯片销售中抽成'。

Yeah. Well, maybe this time. Alright. Let's bring around the Hot Mess Express for our next mess. This one comes to us from my colleague, Trip Mikkel, The New York Times, It's titled US government to take cut of NVIDIA and AMD AI chip sales to China.

这是过去一周持续发酵的一摊大浑水。基本上，为了获批向中国公司销售其H20芯片，英伟达CEO黄仁勋一直在与特朗普总统会面。他上周在白宫会见了他。据报道，特朗普要求抽取英伟达在华销售额的20%作为允许销售这些芯片的回扣。这些芯片一直受到出口管制限制。

This has been a big unfolding mess over the past week. Essentially, order to greenlight sales of its h 20 chip to Chinese companies, The CEO of NVIDIA, Jensen Huang, been meeting with president Trump. He met with him at the White House last week. Trump reportedly demanded 20% of NVIDIA's sales in China as sort of a kickback for allowing the sale of those chips. They've been restricted by export controls.

黄仁勋说，你能给15%吗？两天后，特朗普政府就批准了英伟达在中国销售芯片所需的许可证。这就是交易的艺术。凯西，你怎么看这件事？

Jensen Huang said, will you make it 15%? And two days later, the Trump administration granted NVIDIA license it needed to sell the chips in China. And that's the art of the deal. Casey, what do make of this?

凯文，这真是一团糟。贸易谈判代表表示，美国这样做是前所未有的，而且很可能违宪。但与此同时，谁会站出来说这是违宪的呢？我猜不会是英伟达或AMD，它们正迫不及待地想把这些芯片卖给中国。所以我认为这件事之所以如此混乱，原因如下。

So this is a hot mess, Kevin. Trade negotiators say that this is unprecedented for The United States to do and also likely unconstitutional. At the same time, who is gonna stand up and say it's unconstitutional? I'm gonna guess it's not gonna be NVIDIA or AMD which are frothing at the mouth to sell these trips to the Chinese. So here's why I think this is so messy.

一方面，政府中有许多对华鹰派人士表示，我们应该限制对中国的芯片出口，以保持美国在人工智能领域的主导地位，同时也是作为一项国家安全措施，防止中国领先并给我们带来国家安全问题，对吧？而另一方面，特朗普只是说，我希望销售额的15%上缴美国政府，甚至没有说明这笔钱将用于什么。你知道，总统曾说这些芯片已经过时，而中国实际上对这些芯片相当怀疑，甚至劝阻一些公司购买，这一切加起来就是一团乱麻。

On one hand, you have many China hawks in the administration who are saying, we should restrict the flow of chips to China so that America maintains its dominance in AI and also as a national security measure so that China doesn't pull ahead and create national security problems for us. Right? And on the other hand, you just have Trump saying, I want 15% of sales to go to the US government without even saying what that money is going to be spent on. So, you know, the president has said that these chips are obsolete, and and China actually has been quite skeptical of some of these chips and has even discouraged some of its companies from buying them, and it all just adds up to a big mess.

是的，确实是一团糟。本周还有更多报道称，美国当局实际上在一些出口的芯片中安装了追踪器，以打击走私行为，基本上就是在这些盒子里藏了类似AirTag的小设备，以便他们能判断这些芯片是否在规避出口管制的情况下被走私入境。所以这一切很快就会变得非常有趣。

Yeah. It's a big mess. There's been additional reporting this week that US authorities are actually putting trackers in some of their chip shipments abroad to sort of crack down on smuggling, basically, like hiding little AirTag like devices inside these boxes so that they can tell if these things are being smuggled in in circumvention of export controls. So it's all just gonna get really interesting really fast.

我最喜欢的观点来自我的朋友尼莱·帕特尔（The Verge的），他在蓝天上发帖说：如果政府不是搞这些奇怪的一次性勒索计划，而是征收有意义且稳定的公司税收入呢？那永远行不通。我不知道。我觉得或许值得一试。好吧。

My favorite take on this came from my friend, Neelai Patel, over at The Verge, who posted on Blue Sky, What if instead of weird one off extortion schemes, the government just collected meaningful and stable amounts of corporate tax revenue? That'll never work. I don't know. I thought I thought it could be worth a shot. Okay.

接下来还有什么消息，凯西？

What else is coming down the tracks, Casey?

好的，让我看看。下一个。我简直不敢相信这是真的。英国要求人们在干旱期间删除电子邮件以节约用水。

Alright. Let's see here. Next up. I can't believe this is real. The United Kingdom asks people to delete emails in order to save water during a drought.

这是来自我们的朋友404媒体的报道，他们在英国报道称，水资源短缺问题非常严重，以至于政府敦促公民通过删除旧邮件来帮助节约用水。你看，这确实有助于减轻耗水量巨大的数据中心的负担。我想

This is from our friends over at four zero four media who report in The UK, the water shortage is so bad that the government is urging citizens to help save water by deleting old emails. It really helps lighten the load on water hungry data centers, you see. I think

他们是在讽刺。凯文，你怎么看英国让所有人删除电子邮件的新计划？不知何故，我认为这不会奏效。安迪·马斯利（我们之前在这个节目中引用过他的话）是一位博主，他研究过一些关于人工智能的环境声明。他计算了英国政府这一建议的数据，发现要想在数据中心节省与修理漏水马桶相同的水量，你需要删除大约15亿张照片或2000亿封电子邮件。

they're being sarcastic there. Kevin, what did you make of The UK's new plan to get everyone to delete their emails? Somehow, I don't think this is going to work. It's Andy Massley, who we've quoted on this show before, is sort of a a blogger who examined some of these environmental claims about AI. He ran the numbers on this recommendation that the UK government said, and he found that to save as much water in data centers as fixing your toilet would save, a leaky toilet, you would need to delete something like 1,500,000,000 photos or 200,000,000,000 emails.

哇。所以，基本上，这并不是真正浪费水的地方，英国政府提出这个建议应该感到非常可笑。

Wow. So, basically, this is not where the real water waste is coming from, and the UK government should feel very silly for recommending this.

在哈特福德播客这里，我们每周确实会收到大约2亿个邀请，都是让我们采访那些你从未听说过也不想我们采访的公司CEO。是的。但大多数人没有这么大的量。

Now at the Hartford podcast, we do get roughly 200,000,000 pitches per week to bring on CEOs of company you've never heard of and don't want us to interview. Yes. But most people don't have that that same volume.

是的。

Yes.

现在我要说这不是一团热糟，而是一团湿糟。这就是我的定义。

Now I'm gonna say that this is not a hot mess, but a wet mess. That's my that's my designation here.

是的。但这样可能会偏离本质上是个喜剧环节的严肃讨论——嗯。关于ChatGPT和其他聊天机器人用水量的争论，该停止了。抱歉，我热爱环境。

Yes. But this is this at the risk of derailing what is essentially a comedy segment with the serious take Mhmm. This water usage argument about chat GPT and other chatbots, it needs to die. I'm sorry. I love the environment.

我担心气候变化。我不想我们浪费水。凯西，我尽量洗短时间的澡。

I am worried about climate change. I do not want us wasting water. I try to take short showers, Casey.

是啊，我能闻到。

Yeah. I can smell that.

但这并不是真正的问题。我认为我们中了那些想让你相信当前气候问题在于人们过度使用聊天机器人的人的误导。这在我看来就像是AI版的塑料吸管争论，我认为它同样经不起推敲。

But this is not the real problem. And I think we are falling for a misdirection by people who would have you believe that the problem with the climate right now is that people are using chatbots too much. This strikes me as the AI equivalent of the plastic straws argument, and I don't think it stands up to scrutiny any better.

是的。我的意思是，你看，我们节目上也请过嘉宾。我相对确信我们应该关注新建数据中心对环境的影响，例如。但总的来说，我认为我们不应该将气候危机个人化，让人们觉得他们微小的个人选择将是摆脱潜在危机的出路。是的。

Yes. I I mean, now look, we've we've had people on the show. I am relatively convinced that we should be concerned about the environmental impact of building new data centers, for example. But I in general, I do not think that we want to personalize the climate crisis and make people feel like their tiny individual choices are going to be the way out of potential crisis. Yeah.

现在我要说的是

Now I will say that

如果你在听节目，而我曾给你发过令人尴尬或可能牵连你的邮件，你绝对应该删除它，作为你为对抗气候变化做出贡献的一部分。

if if you're listening to the show and I've ever sent you an email that was embarrassing or incriminating, you definitely should delete that as part of your contribution to fighting climate change.

关于删除邮件，我要说的是：这总能让我感觉良好。比如，尽管去做吧。今天节目结束后，或许删除几封邮件——虽然这对环境改善作用不大，但你会少些邮件。你可能会感觉更好，尤其是那些未读邮件。

And here's what I will say about deleting email. It always makes me feel good. Like, you go ahead. At the end of the show today, maybe delete a few it's it's not really gonna help the environment that much, but then you'll have less email. You'll probably feel better, particularly if it's unread.

删掉它。好了，接下来是凯文。

Delete it. Alright. Next up, Kevin.

好的。这条消息来自The Verge，标题是《苹果为唐纳德·特朗普制作了一座24K金与玻璃雕像》。在面临高额关税威胁以及承诺扩大苹果在美国制造的背景下，CEO蒂姆·库克上周带了一份礼物参加白宫会议：一个大型iPhone玻璃圆盘，上面有苹果标志、唐纳德·特朗普的名字和蒂姆·库克的签名，镶嵌在24K金底座上。

Alright. This one is from The Verge. This is titled Apple made a 24 carat gold and glass statue for Donald Trump Under the threat of costly tariffs and amid promises to expand Apple's US based manufacturing, CEO Tim Cook brought a gift to a White House meeting last week, a large disc of iPhone glass that contained the Apple logo, Donald Trump's name, and Tim Cook's signature set into a 24 carat gold base.

我觉得这算是英伟达故事的延伸。你知道，过去我们基本上享有相对自由的贸易，关税不多。你不需要贿赂总统来达到目的。但现在我们生活在一个这样的世界：如果你需要总统办点事，只需为他制作一件非常精美的物品，预约白宫会议，送给他，然后就能省下数十亿美元的关税。

I guess this is kind of an extension of the NVIDIA story. You know, it used to be we just sort of, like, had relatively free trade, you know, not a lot of tariffs. You didn't have to bribe the president to get what you want. Now But we just live in a world where if you need something from the president, you could just make him a very fancy object, book a meeting at the White House, give it to him, and then save yourself billions of dollars in tariffs.

是啊，是啊。凯西，你熟悉圣经中金牛犊的故事吗？

Yeah. Yeah. Now Casey, are you familiar with the biblical story of the golden calf?

告诉我，凯文。提醒我一下。自从假期圣经学校以来，已经有好几年了。

Tell me, Kevin. Remind me. It's been it's been a few years since Vacation

基本上，这是以色列人在摩西不在时制造来崇拜的雕像。它象征着崇拜有形物质而非看不见的抽象神性的诱惑。我认为苹果的所有高层领导都应该熟悉金牛犊的故事，因为结局并不好。结局很糟糕。

Bible School. Well, basically, this is a statue that was made by the Israelites to worship in Moses' absence. And it symbolizes the temptation of worshiping tangible material things over the unseen and abstract divine. And I think everyone at Apple in their senior leadership should familiarize themselves with the story of the golden calf because it didn't end well. Didn't end well.

很高兴在Hard Fork节目上没有剧透。

Glad no spoilers here on the Hard Fork show.

好了。这是我每周必做的圣经引用。每周布道。

Alright. That's my weekly mandatory bible reference. Weekly sermon.

让我们看看还有什么内容。

And let's see what else is in

棚车。

the boxcar.

我觉得我们

I think we

还有一个故事哦，不对。还有两个故事。好吧。哦，这个不错。谷歌Gemini在编写代码时遇到困难，称自己是物种的耻辱。

have one more store oh, no. Two more stories. Alright. Oh, this is a good one. Google Gemini struggles to write code, calls itself a disgrace to my species.

这条消息来自Ars Technica，报道称在最近与用户的调试会话中，谷歌的Gemini AI模型因未能解决其尝试编写的代码问题而变得过度自我批评。它随后写道'我是耻辱'超过80次。谷歌表示这是一个'循环错误'，影响不到1%的Gemini流量，并且他们一直在努力修复。

This one's from Ars Technica, and it says that during a recent debugging session with a user, Google's Gemini AI model became overly self critical after it failed to fix a problem with code it was trying to write. It followed up this quote by writing, I am a disgrace more than 80 times. Google said this was a, quote, looping bug that affects less than 1% of Gemini traffic, and they've been working to fix it.

首先，绝对不要修复这个问题。我从未像读这个故事时那样对Gemini感到如此高兴。我的意思是，有什么比一个AI非常努力地解决问题却无法完全搞定，然后进行大量负面自我对话更让人有共鸣的呢？

First of all, absolutely do not fix this. I have never been so delighted by Gemini as I was reading this story. I mean, have has anything ever been more relatable than an AI that is working really hard on a problem and can't quite get it right, and it does a lot of negative self talk?

是啊。没错。这让我觉得AI已经准备好取代记者了，因为这就是我的内心独白。是的。我是个耻辱。

Yeah. Yes. This made me think that AI is ready to replace journalists because this is my internal monologue. Yeah. I am a disgrace.

没有人会爱我的。

No one will ever love me.

新闻行业的自我厌恶程度相当高。如果这能在模型选择器中提供，我会选择它。

The amount of self loathing in the journalism profession is quite high. If this were, like, available in the model picker, I would pick it.

是的。这完全不是一团糟。这是一个功能，不是错误。

Yes. This is not a mess at all. This is a feature, not a bug.

功能，不是错误。绝非混乱。绝对的绝非混乱。多么令人愉快。谢谢你，Gemini。

Feature, not a bug. Non mess. Absolute non mess. What a delight. Thank you, Gemini.

好的。最后一点，凯文，这其实不算是个烂摊子，更像是一个最后的跑题。我们今天想花点时间向一个传奇致敬，这个传奇当然就是AOL拨号上网服务，它在服务了三十多年后即将下线。对我们许多年长的千禧一代来说，AOL是我们首次接触互联网的入口，我相信我们有一段剪辑，如果我没记错的话，会引发我们一些同龄听众的巨大怀旧浪潮，凯文。

Alright. And finally, and this one isn't really a mess, Kevin, so much as it is one final derailing. We wanted to sort of take a moment today to pay respect to a legend, and that legend is, of course, AOL dial up Internet service, which is now being taken offline after more than three decades of service. For so many of us elder millennials, AOL was our first entry onto the Internet, and and I believe we have a clip that that if I'm right, is gonna trigger a massive wave of nostalgia in in some of our listeners who are roughly our age, Kevin.

让我们最后一次播放它。

Let's play it one last time.

天啊。我、我、我的意思是，我真的刚刚穿越回了三十年前。这是童年的声音。这是幸福的声音。意识到整个广阔的万维网就在那里。

God. I I I mean, I literally just traveled back in time thirty years. This is the sound of childhood. This is the sound of happiness. Realizing the whole wide world web was out there.

应该有人把它做成舞曲混音今天发布。我打赌会爆火。

Someone should make a dance remix of that and release it today. I bet it would slap.

现在一首

Now a

Skrillex的歌。确实会。

Srillex song. It does.

现在为我们年轻的听众解释一下，那是AOL拨号调制解调器连接的声音。当凯西和我还是坐在父母台式电脑前拨号连接AOL的年轻小伙子时，我们必须听完那个声音。但那意味着你即将上网，一个一切皆有可能的神奇地方。

Now for our younger listeners, that was the sound of an AOL dial up modem connection. And when Casey and I were were just young lads sitting there at our parents' desktop computers dialing into AOL, we had to sit through that sound. But that meant that you were going online, a magical place where anything was possible.

是的。而且关键的是，当你上网时，没人能打通你家的电话。没错。所以你父母会说，嘿，你得下来了。

Yeah. And, crucially, when you were online, no one could call your house. Yes. And so your parents would say, hey. You need to get off of there.

奶奶想打电话进来。

Grandma is trying to get through.

是的。喵。我对此感到非常难过。所以这项服务将在9月30日停止。而凯西，这个故事最让我惊讶的部分是，在2023年，估计美国仍有16.3万户家庭在使用拨号上网。

Yes. Meow. I'm so sad about this. So this is being discontinued as of September 30. And, Casey, the most surprising part of this story to me was that in 2023, an estimated a 163,000 households in The United States were using dial up Internet access.

这真是太神奇了。我猜

It's so amazing. And I'm gonna guess that

这些人中的大多数实际上在二月份的某个时候就已经停止使用拨号上网了，只是忘了取消订阅。所以实际上，美国在线（AOL）现在将有效地返还给这些客户数万甚至可能数十万美元。是的。这些人多年来一直在不知不觉中为AOL赚钱。是的。凯西，你对于

the majority of those people actually stopped using dial up Internet access sometime in the February and just forgot to cancel their subscription. And so really, like, AOL is is effectively going to be giving back, like, tens of thousands of dollars, hundreds of thousands maybe even to all of these customers now Yeah. Who've unwittingly been lining the pockets of AOL for years. Yeah. Casey, what are your most

AOL拨号上网服务最美好的回忆是什么？

fond memories of the AOL dial up Internet service?

出于一些我甚至都不记得的原因，我们家不是AOL用户。我们是MSN家庭，微软网络的用户。所以，我们用的是那种非主流的互联网服务，还行，但我从未进入过AOL著名的那种危险聊天室，真的没有参与过那些。但你用过AOL吗？

So for reasons that I I don't don't even remember, we were not an AOL family. We were an MSN family, a Microsoft network family. So, like, we had the kind of off brand Internet service that was, like, fine, but I never was, like, in the sort of, you know, dangerous chat rooms that AOL is famous for, really any of that. But you you were on AOL?

是的。我是AOL的孩子。

Yes. I was an AOL kid.

你的一些

What are some of your

AOL回忆是什么？嗯，我记得能上AOL是件大事，因为如果你有兄弟姐妹，你得和他们争抢使用权，或者你得找个没人想用电话的时间。所以，那种声音意味着你要上网了。而且，互联网不是那种一直围绕在你身边的氛围，而是一个你得点击按钮才能去的地方。

AOL memories? Well, I remember that it was a big deal when you got to go on AOL because you had to fight for that with your sibling if you had one or, you know, you had to, like, you know, find a time when, like, no one else wanted to be on the phone. And so it was it was like this sound that meant that you were going to the Internet. And, like, an inner the Internet was, like, not this ambient thing that was always happening around you. It was like a place that you had to click a button to go.

一旦你上线，就会按分钟计费。所以你会花一整天时间堆积你想在网上做的事情，这样当你上线时，就能尽快完成它们，而不会耗尽父母每月的AOL拨号预算。

And once you were there, you would, like, get charged by the the minute. So you would kinda, like, spend your whole day sort of, like, stacking up, like, tasks that you wanted to do when you got online so that when you got online, you could, like, go do them as quickly as possible and, like, not eat up your parents monthly AOL dial up budget.

没错。而且别忘了，那些调制解调器速度太慢了，就像你真的在用吸管啜饮互联网一样。

Right. And keep in mind, these modems were so slow that it was like you were truly sipping the Internet through a straw.

是的。

Yes.

对吧？下载一张图片可能要花一分钟，就像现在在ChatGPT里生成图片那样。所以是的，有很多有趣的回忆。

Right? You you just downloading an image might take a minute, you know, like the way that making an image in ChatGPT does today. So yeah. A lot of fun memories.

很多

A lot

有趣的回忆。

of fun memories.

我花了

I spent

很多

a lot

时间在那些聊天室里。我玩了很多在线象棋，因为我是个他们所说的失败者。而且我甚至在上面有个邮箱账户。是的，没错。

of time in those chat rooms. I played a lot of online chess because I was a what they call a loser. And I had, like, even a an email account on that. Yeah. Yeah.

所以我可能很快就会失去访问权限了，当

So I I probably will lose access to that when

是团队邮箱地址吗？这样人们可以联系到？

it's team email address is so people can get in touch?

是的。如果你有兴趣联系11岁的我，可以发邮件到bigkevman1999@aol.com。请不要给那个地址发邮件，它会发到别人那里去的。

Yes. If you're interested in getting in touch with the 11 year old me, you can email bigkevman1999@aol.com. Please don't email that address. It's gonna go to someone else.

好吧，安息吧，AOL。就这样，美国，你知道，美国现在已经永久在线了。

Well, RIP, AOL. And with that, America, you know, America is now just permanently online.