布莱恩·考克斯

我是《西装男团》的罗杰·班尼特。想象一下马修·麦康纳的口音加上表弟格雷格的社交能力。和数百万观众一样，我痴迷《继承之战》——那些疯狂的收购、令人瞠目的奚落、被贪婪与野心淹没的人性闪光、对关注的绝望渴求，还有希芙·罗伊的高领权力毛衣。

This is Roger Bennett from Men in Blazers. Think the accent of Matthew McFaddeon combined with the social skills of cousin Greg. And like millions of you, I adore Succession with its manic takeovers, eye watering put downs, fleeting glimpses of humanity smothered by greed, aspiration, desperate cries for attention, and Chiv Roy power turtlenecks.

所以你更广泛的文化兴趣之一是对着Instagram愤慨自渎？帮朋友问的。

So one of your wider cultural interests is hate jerking to Instagram, just asking for a friend.

托尔斯泰在《安娜·卡列尼娜》中写道：所有幸福的家庭都是相似的，每个不幸的家庭各有各的不幸。但罗伊家族是个例外——他们的不幸如此浩瀚，仿佛囊括了世上所有家庭不幸的总和，生动证明了‘拥有一切却一无所有’的可能性。我坚信这部剧的表演、剧本和人性刻画，让《继承之战》成为没有龙与冰原狼的《权力的游戏》。

Tolstoy wrote in Anna Karenina, all happy families are alike. Each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. The Roy family are the exception. Their unhappiness so vast, it seems to encompass the sum unhappiness of every other family in the world, living proof it's possible to have everything and nothing. I truly believe the show's performances, the writing, the humanity make succession like Game of Thrones without the dragons and direwolves.

交战家族、自我毁灭的权力斗争、史诗级战斗场面（只不过战场是董事会而非临冬城），因此我很荣幸主持HBO《继承之战》播客，通过与该剧制作人的深度对谈，为您提供每周必备的剧情解读。这种必须观看、必须消化、必须讨论的盛宴。

Warring families, self destructive fights for power, and epic battle scenes, albeit once fought out in the boardroom and not at Castle Winterfell, which is why I'm delighted to host HBO's Succession podcast, a show designed to give you a weekly Succession fix via a long form conversation with the people who make the show. Such must watch, must process, must discuss fare.

我们算什么？他妈的一只章鱼在珊瑚礁上给每条鱼做手活？

What are we? A fucking octopus giving, like, reach arounds to to every fish on the reef now?

让我们带着杰瑞将罗曼·罗伊关系升级的勇气直接开始。首先两个快速警告：剧透预警（显然），如果您没看过《继承之战》，我们会默认您已观看；更重要的是语言警告。

Let's dive right in with all the courage of Jerry taking a relationship with Roman Roy to the next level. Before we begin, two quick warnings. Spoiler alert, obviously. If you've not watched Succession, we are gonna be talking as if you have. And big one, language warning.

在继承之战播客里不说脏话，就像让毕加索不用画笔作画。所以请准备好耳朵，迎接洛根·罗伊式的‘滚开’暴击。做继承之战播客，首期嘉宾必须直捣黄龙——这次我们来到Waystar Royco高管楼层，与饰演洛根·罗伊的艾美奖和金球奖得主对话。这位苏格兰出生的媒体大亨是可怕的家族 patriarch，最爱穿PowerShell立领开衫的好斗者，醒着的每时每刻都在击退恶意收购、挣扎于衰退的健康、折磨着他那些永远令人失望的子孙。

To not swear in a succession podcast would be like asking Picasso to paint without a brush. So brace your ears for a good old Logan Roy fuck off or two to the pod. When you launch a succession podcast, you've gotta go right to the top for your first guest, in this case, to the executive suites of Waystar Royco, to spend time with the Emmy award and Golden Globe winner who plays Logan Roy. That Scottish born media magnate, a monstrous patriarch, the most bellicose man ever clad in a PowerShell collar cardigan. Lucas spends his waking hours beating back hostile takeovers, grappling with his declining health, and torturing his perpetually disappointing offspring.

因此，也许毫不奇怪，他表达'滚开'的方式比芬兰人形容雪的词汇还要多。诡计多端、处心积虑、挣扎求生，他最爱的莎士比亚名言是

As a result, it's perhaps no surprise he has more ways of saying fuck off than the Finnish have for Snow. Conniving, contriving, surviving, whose favorite Shakespeare quote is

拿了那该死的钱。

Take the fucking money.

L to the OG。老兄就是OG。A N E在演奏。很高兴欢迎HBO《继承之战》播客的嘉宾，这部剧的黑暗核心——布莱恩·考克斯先生。

L to the OG. Dude be the OG. A N E playing. It is a joy to welcome to HBO's Succession podcast, the dark heart of the show. It's mister Brian Cox.

你好，罗杰。你怎么样？

Hello, Roger. How are you?

现在你来了，我好多了。

Good now you're here.

这介绍可真够隆重的。

That was quite an introduction.

我都说累了。布莱恩·考克斯，CBE（大英帝国司令勋章获得者）。这段介绍是对你辉煌职业生涯的证明。《勇敢的心》中的阿盖尔·华莱士，《谍影重重》中腐败的中情局主管沃德·艾伯特，还有我个人非常喜欢的《青春年少》中的尼尔森·古根海姆医生。你今年74岁，演过数百个角色，但我特别喜欢你的这句话：'我一直做得还不错，没什么可抱怨的，但像洛根·罗伊这样的角色一代人才能遇到一次，你只会惊叹不已'

I'm exhausted. Brian Cox, CBE. It's a testament that introduction, to the career you've had. Argyle Wallace in Braveheart, the corrupt CIA boss Ward Abbot, in Born Identity, one of my personal favorites, doctor Nelson Guggenheim in Rushmore. You are 74 years of age hundreds of roles but I love this quote of yours I've been doing reasonably well I can't complain but a role like Logan Roy comes along once in a generation and you just go wow

是的，确实如此。Q类的导师们说过，你知道，这对你来说会是场持久战。不会一夜成名。我说，好吧。

Yeah. That's true. Q kind of mentors said, you know, it will be the long run for you. It's not gonna be overnight success. And I said, okay.

但实际上，考虑到我一路走来经历了一系列的一夜成功，也有相反的情况，所以我的表现相当不错。事情就是这样起伏的。当像洛根·罗伊这样的角色出现时，嗯，真的很难被超越。

But, actually, I've done very well considering because I've had series of overnight successes on the way and then the opposite. So it's gone like that. When a role like Logan Roy comes along, well, it's pretty unbeatable really.

布莱恩，你在相对较晚的年纪来到好莱坞，已经为自己开辟了一个‘租借反派’的 niche——在《X战警2》中饰演邪恶的 striker，在迈克尔·曼的 cult 惊悚片《猎人者》中饰演最初的汉尼拔·莱克特，在《纽伦堡审判》中饰演我的噩梦之源、纳粹战犯赫尔曼·戈林，真是吓人。我听说当亚当·麦凯、杰西·阿姆斯特朗和《继承之战》的选角导演弗朗辛·梅斯勒在考虑谁能扮演洛根·罗伊时，你的名字都在他们愿望清单的顶部。听到当需要火山般暴虐的家长式人物时，每个人都说‘给我找考克斯’，你感觉如何？

In Hollywood, which you came to relatively late, Brian, you've carved out a niche as a renter baddie playing the evil striker in X Men two, the original Hannibal Lecter in Michael Mann's cult thriller Manhunter, your Nazi war criminal, Herman Goring, stuff of my nightmares in Nuremberg, proper terrifying. And I've heard that when Adam McKay, Jesse Armstrong, and Succession casting director, Francine Meisler, were thinking about who could possibly play Logan Roy, your name was at top of all their wish list. How does that feel to hear that when it comes to volcanic abusive patriarchs everyone's like get me cocks.

是的。在某种程度上，这是一种拐弯抹角的恭维，你知道吧？挺有趣的。我记得很多很多年前，我演过太多这类角色了，麦克白、莎士比亚笔下的各种坏人，伊阿古等等。我大概在九十年代演李尔王巡演的时候，到了一个节点，我在想，为什么我总得演这些坏人，这些在某种程度上都有缺陷的人？

Yeah. It's a kind of backhanded compliment in a way, you know? It's very funny. I remember years and years ago, I'd played so many of these characters, Macbeth and Shakespeare and all these bad guys, Iago and all that. I sort of got to a point where I think it was in the nineties when I think I was playing Lear and I was on tour and I was thinking, why do I have to play all these bad people, all these people that are, you know, flawed in some way?

然后你意识到我们所有人都有缺陷。有趣的地方在于，拿这些角色一样的人，赋予他们一个观点。赋予他们观点是关键。他们需要这个。你的工作要求你这么做，你知道，而不是去演一个只会捻胡子的刻板反派。

And then you realize that we're all flawed. That's the interesting thing is to take somebody like these characters and give them a point of view. Giving them a point of view is the key thing. They require it. Your job requires that you do it, you know, rather than play the mustache twirling villain.

我的意思是，这些反派是深刻而神秘的。

I mean, these villains are deep and mysterious.

作为一个由97%缺陷构成的人，布莱恩，我完全同意地点头。我很喜欢这一点：当你的经纪人在2016年2月第一次向你提起这部剧时，他们看到你的角色在试播集结尾陷入了昏迷，并把它推销给你说这是一个快速的、一次性的活儿，不会占用你太多时间。他们说，他中风了。别担心，一季后你就死了。

As a man who's 97% made of flaws, Brian, I'm nodding in complete agreement. And I love the fact that when your agents first broached the idea of the show to you back in 02/2016, they'd seen that your character lapses into a coma at the end of the pilot and sold it to you as a quick one off that won't take too much of your time. He's had a stroke, they said. Don't worry. You'll be dead after one season.

是的，没错。那是最初的设想，但实际上那次谈话在萌芽阶段就被扼杀了，当时我正在与洛杉矶的亚当·麦凯和意大利的杰西·阿姆斯特朗通电话讨论提案。我说，所以这是一季完结的剧集吗？然后大西洋两岸都陷入了长时间的沉默，最后他们说，呃，我不这么认为。

Yeah. That's right. That was the original intention, but that conversation was nipped in the bud, actually, as I was speaking to both Adam McKay in LA and Jesse Armstrong, who was in Italy when the pitch call came. I said, so it's a one season part? And and there was a long pause on either side of the Atlantic, and finally, went, well, I don't I don't think so.

我也是庆幸这部剧没有一季终结的数百万人之一。但用你自己的话来说，你会如何描述这个角色洛根·罗伊的核心——一个白手起家的人，最终意识到世上所有的金钱和权力都无法帮助他对抗时间。

I am amongst the millions who were glad that it wasn't one season and out. But in your own words, how would you describe the heart of this character, Logan Roy, a self made man who comes to realize all the money and power in the world can't help him defy time.

我认为他一直都知道这一点。当你接近自己的'保质期'时，这种感觉会开始放大。但我也认为洛根没有幻想。他和我共有的唯一一点是对人类实验的失望。洛根真的非常非常失望。

I think that he's always known that. When you get close to your sell by date, it begins to sort of amplify. But I also think that Logan has no illusions. The one thing that he and I share is his disappointment in the human experiment. Logan is really, really very disappointed.

我是个乐观主义者。我看到可能性，但洛根只知道事情不会变得更好，只会变得更糟。当然，这对他来说是悲剧，因为他清楚地看到了这一点。我很早很早以前就问过杰西这个问题。我说，他爱他的孩子们吗？

I'm an optimist. I see possibility, but Logan just knows that it's not gonna get any better. It's gonna get a lot worse. And, of course, it's tragic for him because he sees it I asked Jesse this question very, very early on. I said, Does he love his children?

回答是毋庸置疑的：'哦，是的。是的。他真的很爱他的孩子们。'既然如此，考虑到他以那种方式与孩子们紧密相连，你会意识到他的孩子们对他来说只是一种深深的失望。但他也明白他们来自一个不真实的世界，我们一直在贾里德·库什纳和伊万卡·特朗普身上看到这种情况。

The answer was a redoubtable, Oh, yes. Yes. He really does love his children. So given that, the fact that that he is locked into his children in that way, you realize that his children are just a sort of deep, deep disappointment to him. But then he also understands that they come from an unreal world, and we're seeing it all the time with the Jared Kushners and the Ivanka Trumps.

我们看到那些不胜任工作的人，在做着他们根本不适合的工作。这些孩子是真实存在的，在某种程度上这对他们来说也很艰难。这些家族总是有这种元素。最终，当他们看似到达彩虹尽头时，却发现那里是空虚的，一无所有。

We're seeing people who are not up to their job, doing a job which they really aren't designed for. They really exist, these children, and it's a hard thing for them in a way. So there's always that element of these families. And finally, when they get to what looks like the end of the rainbow, they discover that it's vacuous. There's nothing there.

甚至你塑造这个角色及其家庭的方式，都在证明为何这部剧如此精妙——《继承之战》丰富的层次感。是的，卢克和罗伊，你是否同意它既是永恒的、莎士比亚式的《李尔王》，又完全属于当下，是我们当前现实/黑暗面的完美象征。

Even the way you are framing the character and his family, you are proving at what makes it such a subtle piece of television, the rich layers of succession. Yeah. I mean, Luke and Roy, would you agree it's both timeless, Shakespearean, King Lear, and completely of the present tense, the perfect symbol of our current reality slash darkness.

他就是我们当前的现实。关键的是，与特朗普、默多克、康拉德·布莱克、雷石东不同，他是白手起家的人。他出身卑微。所以他已站稳脚跟。这是一个好得多的局面。

He is our current reality. And the key thing is, unlike Trump, unlike Murdoch, unlike Conrad Black, unlike Redstone, he is a self made man. He came from nothing. So he's established. And that's a much better scenario.

因此，这其中可能蕴含着更强烈的戏剧价值。你看到这些错误在家族中一次又一次地发生，你看到了它的必然性。因为一旦你走上某条道路，而且是一条成功之路，就很难回头。而这在某种程度上正是洛根讽刺性地所遭受的。

And therefore, potentially, there's more dramatic value in that. You see these mistakes happening in time and time again in families, and you see the inevitability of it. Because once you go down a particular road, and it's a road of success, it's very hard to back off. And that's what Logan, in a way, ironically suffers from.

这就像拉金的诗写的那样：他们把你搞砸，你的妈妈和爸爸。他们可能并非有意，但确实如此。他们用自己曾有过的缺点填满你，还额外加了些专属于你的。艾米丽·范·德·沃夫在Vox中写道，我们存在于一个满是男人的世界，这些人相信只要他们喊得足够大声，事情就是真的。

It's like the Larkin poem. They fuck you up, your mom and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. They fill you with the faults they had and add some extra just for you. Emily Van Der Werff wrote in Vox, we exist in a world full of men who believe that if they shout something loudly enough, it's true.

并且他们对‘自己可能是错的’这一想法感到极度冒犯，无论我们多么委婉地告知他们。用这句话来描述洛根是多么贴切？

And who take extreme offense to the idea that maybe they are wrong no matter how gently we break it to them. How apt is that phrase in terms of describing Logan?

我认为这是真的。你知道，他不仅仅代表他自己，更代表着他所象征的东西。这类男人正在接近他们的‘保质期’。这一天来得非常、非常快。当然，当前的新冠危机非常、非常尖锐地指出了这一点。

I think it's true. You know, he's a man who is not just in terms of himself, but in terms of what he represents. These men are reaching their sell by date. It's coming very, very quickly. And, of course, this present COVID crisis is pointing that up very, very sharply.

整个男性的特权就是行不通了。它已经失灵一段时间了。我认为这是一个正在消亡的群体。我们是一个正在消亡的群体，我们必须接受这一点，你知道，几个世纪以来我们搞砸了。现在真的该轮到女性了。

The whole male prerogative just doesn't work. It hasn't worked for some time. And I think that it's a dying breed. We are a dying breed, and we have to accept that, you know, for centuries we've screwed up. And it really is now over to the women.

但女性面临的问题是，她们从男性那里继承来的东西，她们也有太多需要梳理和解决的。这在他与他最喜爱的孩子——也就是希芙的关系中就能看到。你知道？西沃恩是他深爱的人。但他让她加入公司，当然，他说目前这必须是秘密进行。

But the problem for the women is that what they've inherited from the men, they've got so much to sort out as well. And you see that in the relationship with his favorite child, which is Shiv. You know? And Siobhan is somebody he deeply loves. But he brings her on board, he said, of course, it has to be secret to now.

他不断地抛出这些性格小测试。这就是人们没有完全意识到洛根的一点。他一直在挑战他的孩子们，看他们能想出什么？会怎么做？

Constantly, he's throwing out these little tests of character. That's what people don't quite realize about Logan. He's constantly challenging his children to say, what are you gonna come up with? What are you gonna do?

洛根痛苦的根源是什么？在新墨西哥州的游泳池，我们看到他背上的伤疤。你曾解释这些是他在加拿大由叔叔抚养时遭受体罚的结果。

What is the source of Logan's pain? At the swimming pool in New Mexico, we see the scars across his back. You've explained them away as a result of physical beatings at the hands of an uncle who raised him in Canada.

这在一定程度上确实与此有关。他童年时遭受了可怕的虐待。他被带离原来的环境，送到加拿大，又返回苏格兰，始终未能真正成功，于是下定决心，无论如何都要做自己的主人。我们某种程度上都有这种心态，我当然也有。

It certainly connected in some way with that. He was abused terribly as a child. He was taken from his environment, sent to Canada, returned to Scotland, never quite made a go of it, made a decision, which was he was going to be his own man, willy nilly. Now we all have that to a certain extent. I certainly have it.

但你必须小心，确保它成为一种向善的力量，而不是相反。这就是洛根失败的地方，因为它变成了一种野心的力量。

But then you have to be careful that it becomes a power for good rather than a power for the opposite. That's where Logan falls down because it became a power for ambition.

洛根·罗伊是个野兽，但不得不说，洛根·罗伊的传记与布莱恩·考克斯的传记之间存在微妙的交集。

Logan Roy is a beast, yet it has to be said there's a nuanced overlap between the biography of Logan Roy and one Brian Cox.

人们形容他是我邪恶的双胞胎。这部剧最奇怪的一点是，原本我不是在邓迪出生的。最初设定我出生在魁北克，直到第一季第九集，彼得·弗里德曼需要做一些自动对白替换时，他说，哦，他们改了你的出生地。我惊讶地问，什么？改了我的出生地？

People describe him as my evil twin. The thing about the series, which is so weird, originally, I wasn't born in Dundee. Originally, I was born in Quebec, and it was only on the ninth episode of the first series that Peter Friedman, had to do some ADR, and he said, oh, they've changed your birthplace. And I went, what? Changed my birthplace?

是啊，是啊，你不再出生在魁北克了。我问，那我出生在哪里？他说，哦，是一个叫苏格兰邓迪的地方。

Yeah. Yeah. You're not born in Quebec anymore. I said, so where am I born? He said, oh, was something called Dundee, Scotland.

然后我去了，但那就是我来的地方。是的。当然，当我找到杰西时，我问他，这是怎么回事？你懂吗？这到底是什么？

And I went, but that's where I'm from. Yes. And of course and when I went to Jesse and I said, what's going on? You know? What is this?

当然，这些编剧非常狡猾。他说，我们觉得这会是个小惊喜。确实，他们确实从我们身上汲取灵感。他们确实把我们做的很多事情融入了剧中。

And of course, they're very cunning, these writers. He said, we thought it'd be a little surprised. And of course, they do work off us. They do take so much from what we do into the show.

我的意思是，两位都是邓迪硬汉。没错。你们都熬过了肯兹式的贫困童年，建立在奋斗之上。你们都是白手起家的人，工人阶级的孩子，靠着渴望、坚韧和一心追求成功的决心一步步闯出来。两人都有两个婚姻，各有一个女儿和三个儿子。

I mean, both men are Dundee hard. Yeah. You both survived the Kenzian poor childhoods built on struggle. You're both self made human beings, working class kids who ground their way through desire and tenacity and a single mindedness to success. Both have a daughter and three sons from two marriages.

也像你的另一个自我，你的童年与你现在的生活、你成年后的囤积习惯，以及你能给孩子们提供的生活条件相比，简直是天壤之别。洛根是自学成才、自我驱动的。洛根·罗伊和布莱恩·考克斯在维恩图中有多少重叠之处？

Also like your alter ego, your childhood was unimaginably different than your current reality, your adult hoarder, and also the reality you're able to provide for your kids. Logan's self taught, self motivated. How much of an overlap is there in the Venn diagram of Logan Roy and Brian Cox?

从环境的角度来看，有很大的重叠。我认为我的救赎在于我发现了人文学科，所以我接触了艺术。正是艺术在某种程度上真正解放了我，艺术是我一生中的导师与挚爱。我热爱我的工作，我认为这是一份非常有力量的工作。

In circumstantial sense, there is a great deal of overlap. I think my saving grace is that I discovered the humanities, so I discovered the arts. And it's the arts that have really liberated me in a way, and it's the arts that have been my master and mistress throughout my entire life. And I love my job. I think it's a very powerful job.

我觉得我们低估了自己所从事工作的力量。所以我很幸运，我从未对金钱本身感兴趣，因为我真正理解贫穷。金钱曾是我生活中的巨大障碍。现在我珍惜它，而且我现在过得不错，所以我真的很感激。年轻的时候，你做这行可不是为了钱。

I think we underestimate the power of what we do. So I was very lucky that I was never interested in money as such because I understood real poverty. Money was just a huge impediment in my life. Now I appreciate it, and now I'm doing quite well, so I'm really I'm really quite grateful. When I was younger, that's not what you do it for.

你是为了别的东西而做。而洛根意识到，他唯一能做的就是尽可能多地赚钱，那给了他某种自由。但其实不是这样。这就像是自作自受。

You do it for something else. Whereas Logan realized that the only thing that he could do was make as much money as he could, and that's what gave him his sort of freedom. But it's not. It's like a stick for your own back.

你知道，如果洛根·罗伊年轻时多参与业余戏剧表演，就不会有《继承之战》这部剧了。你曾被问到出演一部长篇电视剧是否需要活在角色里，你承认确实如此。所以我想知道你是如何活在洛根·罗伊这个角色里的，这是否在某种程度上改变了你，布莱恩？

You know, if Logan Roy had done more amateur dramatics as a youth, there would be no succession. You were once asked if playing in a long running TV series required you to live inside your character, and you acknowledged it did. So what I want to know is how have you lived inside Logan Roy and whether it's changed you in a way, Brian?

不，一点也没有。这是一种纪律。我觉得关于我的工作有很多胡说八道。你知道，你必须保持灵活。

No. Not at all. It's a discipline. I think there's a great deal of can't and nonsense talk about my job. You know, you have to be flexible.

你必须能够迅速转变。你必须能够完成一些智力上相当高难度的动作。你知道，你必须具备那种能力。你不能被你所做的事情束缚，因为就像我母亲常说的，布莱恩，这只是一部电影，或者布莱恩，这只是一出戏。它不是真实的。

You have to be able to turn on a sixpence. You have to be able to do things which are quite intellectually acrobatic. You know, you've got to have that ability. You can't get bound by what you do, you know, because as my mother used to say, Brian, it's only a film or Brian, it's only a play. It's no real.

只要记住它不是真实的。这是最好的建议，因为它确实不是真实的。你处理的是非现实。你在反思现实，但它是别的东西。莎士比亚精彩地将其描述为‘举起镜子映照自然’，这就是你所做的。

Just remember it's no real. That's the best advice of all because it isn't real. It's an unreality that you're dealing with. You're reflecting on reality, but it's something else. Shakespeare describes it brilliantly as holding the mirror up to nature, and that's what you do.

所以你希望这面镜子能映照出自然的所有可怕之处。

So you hope that mirror up to nature in all its horribleness.

作为一个以对角色的深入研究而闻名的人，带我们回到最初，谈谈你准备让洛根·罗伊跃然纸上的过程。

As a man who's known for putting a lot of research into his roles, take us back to the beginning and talk about the process through which you prepared to make Logan Roy live beyond the page.

嗯，他很机智。他非常风趣。他毫无顾忌，没有什么能打动他。所以他儿子的百达翡丽手表，他真的不在乎。他对那个没兴趣。

Well, he's witty. He's very funny. He's no holds barred, and nothing impresses him. So his son's Patik Philippe watch, he really doesn't care about. He has no interest in that.

实际上，他对他另一个儿子得到这块酸面包的想法稍微更感兴趣，这有点奇怪。但他对他们一视同仁。他能看透事物，这在某种意义上是他的一种优势。但他的内心却有些空虚。这就是悲剧所在。

He's actually slightly more interested in the idea of his other son getting this sourdough bread, which is kind of curious. But he treats them just the same. He sees through things, and that's his strength in one sense. But then his heart is kind of empty. That's the tragedy of it.

Logan Roy的标志性主题是那句永恒的格言。

Logan Roy's signature leitmotif is the ageless adage.

滚开。滚开。滚开。滚开。不行。

Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. No.

滚开。滚开。你，滚开。如果你做不到，就滚开。继续。

Fuck off. Fuck off. You, fuck off. If you can't do it, fuck off. Go on.

滚开。从这里滚出去。滚开。滚开。滚开。

Fuck off. Get out of here. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off.

滚开。是的。滚开。

Fuck off. Yeah. Fuck off.

是的。是的。电视史上的人类比他更爱爆粗口。你自己也说过。我喜欢骂人。

Yeah. Yeah. Human beings in the history of television have loved to drop the f bomb more than he. You've said it for yourself. I love to swear.

我不认同那种认为说脏话是词汇量有限的胡说八道。恰到好处的脏话可以极具表现力。是谁决定让'滚开'成为他标志性的一切？

I don't buy this nonsense that swearing is a sign of a limited vocabulary. Good swearing can be incredibly expressive. Whose idea was it to make fuck off his signature everything?

嗯，它之所以流行起来，只是因为我碰巧在一集里说了至少一两次甚至六次。我的意思是，我当时根本没多想。我从没想过这会成为洛根·罗伊的口头禅。这些是我的台词，我就直接说了，不。滚开。

Well, it just arrived just because I happened to be saying it at least once or twice or even six times in an episode. I mean, I didn't think anything about it. I never thought it was gonna be the catch phrase of Logan Roy. These were my lines, and I just said, no. Fuck off.

滚开。滚开。懂吗？我的意思是，你可以运用各种不同的语气来说。

Fuck off. Fuck off. You know? Mean, there's there's various tones that you employ.

哦，我真是佩服。我得说，作为一个在利物浦长大的英国人，那里'操'这个词一天二十四小时都被用作形容词、名词、副词、连词。就看你怎么用了。我是说，那种复杂多层次的表达方式，标准简单的

Oh, what I revere. I have to say, as an Englishman who grew up in Liverpool where the word fuck is used twenty four seven as an adjective, noun, adverb, conjunction. Just how you use a word. I mean, the complex multifaceted delivery, the standard simple

滚开。

Fuck off.

用来暗示'够了，谈话结束'。那种疲惫的

To suggest enough this conversation is over. The tired

滚开。

Fuck off.

关于失望和完整的洛根·罗伊

Of disappointment and the full Logan Roy

滚开。

Fuck off.

就是那种全然原始、直视深渊的一瞥。你能给我来一次吗，布莱恩？

Just all out primal raw glimpse into the abyss. Can you give me that one, Brian?

滚开。

Fuck off.

只有人性的黑暗才能接住那句'滚开'。我在利物浦长大的经历让我深有体会，那里和都柏林或格拉斯哥没什么太大不同。

Only human darkness can follow that fuck off. I know so well from growing up in Liverpool, not too dissimilar from Dublin or Glasgow.

哦，不。这都源于爱尔兰血统。我是说，爱尔兰人比任何人都更擅长表达。苏格兰人让它变得暴力，而爱尔兰人让它充满诗意。

Oh, no. It all comes from the Irish roots. I mean, the Irish wear better than anybody. You know, the Scots really make it violent, but the Irish make it poetic.

当你说出那句'滚开'时，我就知道接下来要挨头槌了。你很坦率地说过，当人们在TikTok或Instagram故事里在舞台门口问你，想要布莱恩·考克斯对他们说'滚开'时，你说能这样做是件很棒的事，因为这正是你想告诉他们的。滚开。

When you say that fuck off, I know headbutts are coming. You've said, quite frankly, when people ask you at the stage door on TikTok or on Instagram stories, I want Brian Cox tell me to fuck off. You've said it's a wonderful thing to be able to do because that's exactly what you do want to tell them. Fuck off.

是的。而这正是你想告诉他们的。这这这这这太离奇了。绝对离奇。

Yeah. And that's kind of what you do want to tell them. It's it's it's it's it's bizarre. It's absolutely bizarre.

有个继承梗说如果洛根·罗伊接受过心理治疗，这部剧就没必要存在了。但根本没有治疗。所以虽然这部剧是关于家庭和财富的，但人性虐待才是核心。有精神上的，有身体上的，洛根在一次无助的狂怒中扇了罗曼的脸。但我想和你讨论的场景，布莱恩，是第二季第三集，地板上的野猪。

There's a succession meme that says if Logan Roy had had therapy, there'd be no need for the show. There's been no therapy. So while the show is about family and wealth, human abuse is at the heart of it. There's mental, there's physical, Logan in a fit of helpless flailing rage striking Roman in the face. But the scene I wanna talk to you about, Brian, season two episode three, Boar on the floor.

地板上的野猪。蜡烛，召集部队。地板上的野猪。地板上的野猪。地板上的

Boar on the floor. Candle, ring the troops. Boar on the floor. Bore on floor. Bore on

野猪。地板上的野猪。为了你们的香肠。威斯塔罗伊科的高管们正在匈牙利城堡进行企业团建，名义上是“提振士气”。洛根发明了一个游戏。

the floor. Bore on the floor. Oi for your sausages. The executives of Waystar Royko are on a corporate retreat at a Hungarian castle in the name of, quote, morale boosting. Logan makes up a game.

规则很简单。你通过强迫随行人员中最情感脆弱的人在地上爬行，发出猪叫声，同时你朝他们的大致方向扔香肠来羞辱他们。你同意吗？这是皮特·戴蒙·洛根吗？

The rules of which are simple. You humiliate the most emotionally frail members of your entourage by forcing them to crawl around on the ground, making pig noises while you throw sausages in their general direction. Would you agree? This is Pete Demon Logan?

是的。但从洛根的角度来看，这源于房间里充满了背叛。有太多，你知道，他说我被蛇和该死的白痴包围了。然后他爆发了。才华横溢的编剧托尼·罗奇和我讨论过这个场景。

It is. But Logan's point of view, it comes from the fact that there's so much treachery in the room. There's so much you know, and he says I am surrounded by snakes and fucking morons. And he has the outburst. Tony Roche, who brilliantly wrote it, and I talked about it.

我说，你知道，我们必须非常小心地处理这个，因为我们不想夸大洛根。我们不想变成，哦，那就是洛根。其根源在于他已经受够了。他只是觉得，我被这些包围了。然后他想，好吧。

I said, you know, we have to be very careful doing this because we don't wanna blow Logan out of proportion. We don't wanna go, oh, that's Logan. And the root of it was that he just is fed up. He just thinks, I'm surrounded by this. And he thinks, right.

我知道我要做什么。我要玩这个游戏。我要玩这个游戏。这是他过去玩过的游戏。可能他已经好几年没玩过了。

I know what I'll do. I'll play the game. I'll play the game. It's a game that he's played in the past. And he probably hasn't played it for a few years.

也许在上一代，他玩得更多。但现在他只是说，我要在地板上玩波拉。这就是我要做的。这会让他们行动起来。但这确实源于组织功能失调的真实感受。

Maybe a previous generation, he played it a lot more. But now he just goes, I'll do Bora on the fucking floor. That's what I'll do. And that'll get them going. But it does come out of a genuine sense of the dysfunction of the organization.

洛根·罗伊重拾经典 当你，布莱恩·考克斯，第一次读到这样一个充满羞辱和人性恐怖的场景时，你是否在拖车里垂涎欲滴？还是你会想，哦，天哪。演员们都是我的朋友。你会觉得拍摄起来会很可怕吗？

Logan Roy dusting off the classics When you, Brian Cox, first read a scene like that filled with humiliation and human horror, do you salivate in your trailer? Or are you like, oh, god. The cast are my friends. Are you like, this is gonna be gruesome to shoot?

记住，我母亲说过这只是一场戏。只是一部电影。你知道，这不是你的承诺，而你的承诺意味着你必须挺身而出。扮演洛根，这需要付出很多。但同时，从洛根的角度来看，你知道，整个地板上的球这件事是他在另一种情况下不一定会做的。

Remember, there's my mother saying it's only a play. It's only a film. You know, it's not you're committed, and your commitment means that you have to step up to the plate. Playing Logan, that's required a lot. But at the same time, from Logan's point of view, you know, the whole ball on the floor thing is something that he would not necessarily have done in another situation.

但因为周围有这种背叛的气氛和正在发生的两面三刀，他看到了，因此他必须澄清人们的立场和他们是谁。我对托尼说，我希望我们不会做得太过火，你知道，我们不是在以错误的方式纵容洛根。大家都同意我们没有，因为这是他清理事情的一部分。

But because there's this air of treachery around and this air of duplicitousness that's going on, he sees it, and therefore he has to clarify positions of people in who they are. And I said to Tony, I hope we're not going too far with this, you know, that we're not indulging Logan in the wrong way. And it was agreed that we're not because it's part of him clearing things out.

另一方面是你对杰西·阿姆斯特朗的请求。洛根爱他的孩子吗？有些事情对你来说很重要。为什么知道这一点很重要？这是否给了你角色的限制？

And the other side of that is your request of Jesse Armstrong. Does Logan love his children? Something was important for you to know. Why was that important to know? Does it give you limits on the character?

不一定是限制。它给了你维度，让你意识到你正在与一个无法表达爱但能够感受爱的父亲打交道。

Not necessarily limits. It gives you dimension so that you are realizing that you are dealing with a father who is not capable of expressing love, but he is capable of feeling it.

是的。

Yes.

事实上，他确实能感受到，只是无法表达出来。这也与他的虐待经历和表达能力缺失有关。这就是我和洛根的不同之处，因为我能表达自己。洛根的表达范围非常有限，从他满口脏话就能看出来，你知道，这确实很局限。他是个复杂的人。

And in fact, he does feel it, but he can't express it. And that's also to do with his abuse and his inability to express. That's where Logan and I differ because I can express myself. Logan has a very limited range of expression, as we can tell by his swearing, you know, which is, you know, that's quite limiting. You know, he's complex.

他不是非黑即白的。我不认为洛根是反派。我认为洛根是一个正在应对当下残酷现实的人。而当今的残酷现实意味着，为了让事情运转起来，有时你不得不表现得非常糟糕。

He's not cut and dry. I don't think of Logan as a villain. I think of Logan as a man who's dealing with the harsh realities of now. And the harsh realities of now mean that in order to make things function, sometimes you have to behave really badly.

洛根·罗伊很复杂。爱也很复杂。爱有很多种不同的形式。无论是对看似压抑的肯德尔、顽劣的罗曼、内心矛盾的希芙，还是脱离常规、活成表情包的康纳。洛根对他子女的爱，似乎都厚厚地包裹着失望。

Logan Roy is complex. Love is complex. There's so many different kinds. No matter if it's for the seemingly repressed Kendall, Rapscallion Roman, conflicted Shiv, or off the reservation walking meme Connor. Logan's love for his children, it seems thickly coated in disappointment.

‘脱离常规、活成表情包的康纳’，这个说法我喜欢。

Off the reservation walking meme Connor. I like that.

你认为洛根对于自己更像一个压路机而非父亲，导致孩子们变成现在这样，是否感到任何内疚或自责？

Do you think Logan feels any guilt or blame for how they've all turned out as a steamroller more than a parent?

这个问题可以从几个角度来看。你知道，我记得我已故的伟大朋友布莱恩·丹尼希说过，心理虐待，过了25岁就没什么借口可找了。你不能一直打童年牌。哦，我做了这个，我做了那个。

There's several ways of looking at that. You know, I remember my great, late friend, Brian Denhee, who just said that psychological abuse, all bets are off after the age of 25. You can't keep playing your childhood card. Oh, I did this. I did that.

我在一定程度上同意这一点，但你也不能否认自己的历史。你不能否认自己是在某种特定方式下被养育长大的，因此你遭遇了某些你未必认同的态度，但这些态度迫使你陷入某些处境。我认为洛根就是如此。肖写过一部很棒的作品——一位现在已很不时髦但非常伟大的作家。有一部戏剧叫《错配》，他描写了孩子与父母之间的羞怯。

I agree with that to a certain extent, but you also cannot deny your history. You cannot deny that you've been brought up in certain kinds of ways, and therefore you've encountered certain attitudes, which you don't necessarily share, but attitudes have forced you into certain situations. And I think that's true of Logan. Shaw wrote a great thing, a writer who's very much out of fashion now, but a great writer. There's a play called Misalliance, and he writes about the shyness of child and parent.

他说父母与子女双方都存在某种因素，使得某些桥梁难以建立。我认为洛根就面临这种困境。

And he said that there is an element with parents and children on both sides, which makes certain bridges very hard to create. I think Logan has that difficulty.

他对哪个孩子最失望？

Which kid is he most disappointed by?

他一直在肯德尔身上努力，但肯德尔终究是最令人失望的。他真是个爱哭鬼。你知道吗？他确实如此。就像你一走进房间，婴儿就因为你在场而哭闹。

He keeps trying with Kendall, but Kendall ultimately is the most disappointing. He's such a crybaby. You know? He really is. It's like the minute you walk into a room, a baby cries because you're in the room.

根本无从开始，因为那孩子被设定成只要你进房间就会哭。我认为这是洛根在与肯德尔的关系中一直承受的。康纳是个有趣的孩子，因为他是个逃避到幻想中、沉迷于这种怪诞行为的孩子。从某种角度来说，他更令人愉悦。他确实更讨人喜欢。

There's no way to start because that child is programmed to cry whenever you walk in the room. I think that's something that Logan has suffered from in relationship to Kendall. Connor is an interesting child because he's a child who's escaped into fantasy and escaped into this kind of wackiness. And in a way, he's delightful. He's more delightful.

你知道，尽管他认为康纳是个傻瓜，但他对康纳怀有相当的尊重。竞选总统？他说：哦，别搞那些破事了。你在干什么？但与此同时，康纳身上又有种小男孩般的天真特质。

He has, you know, he has a lot of regard for Conor even though he thinks he's an idiot. Run for president. He said, oh, stop all that shit. What are you doing? But at the same time, there is this sort of little boy wonder about Conor.

至于罗曼，罗曼一直用他的笑话来逃避，他回避了所有责任。这就是为什么当他发现中东资金那件事完全行不通时，会发生如此重大的转变。那件事根本不可能成真。而他比任何人都更早看穿了这一点。

And with Roman, Roman has used his jokes and he's kept everything like that. He's not taken on his responsibility. And that's why it's such a big thing that happened when he saw that the Middle Eastern money thing was a complete no no. It wasn't gonna happen. And he saw through it before anybody else done.

卡尔，公司的财务总监，也承认那是他的本事，他在那里做的事情相当了不起。我的银行家丹尼当然因此损失了一大笔交易，因为他之前投入了大量资金。

Carl, who was the financial director of the company, also acknowledged that's his skill, that what he did there was pretty amazing. Danny, my banker, of course, is losing a big deal on that because he had a big investment.

哦，丹尼。

Oh, Danny.

那笔交易泡汤了。希芙深受打击。从小被宠坏的公主身份并不一定对她有帮助。她显然很聪明，可能是所有人中最聪明的，但同时又有一种想要揭露一切、倾诉一切的冲动。还想和她根本不想参与这些的丈夫玩性爱游戏。

That deal is gone. Shiv is just very bruised. Being the the spoilt daughter doesn't necessarily help the princess from an early age. And clearly smart, probably the smartest of all of them, but at the same time, this urge to reveal everything, to tell everything. Want to play these sexual games with her husband who doesn't really wanna do any of that.

他是来自明尼苏达州的非常单纯的人。被迫以这些方式行事，这就是他们关系如此有趣的地方。关系正在加深，而他却开始抛弃所有那些。他不想知道那些事情。她也开始意识到那种情况其实很空洞。

He's a very simple guy from Minnesota. He's made to act in these ways, and that's what's so interesting about their relationship. It's getting deeper, and he's beginning to throw all that off. He doesn't wanna know about all that. She's also realizing that it's kind of bankrupt, that situation.

上帝保佑，汤姆。布莱恩，有人曾问过你，谁应该最终获得Waystar Royco的控制权。你说应该得到它的人是配得上它的人。

God bless, Tom. You were once asked, Brian, who should ultimately gain control of Waystar Royco. You said the one who should get it is the one who deserves it.

是的。完全正确。

Yeah. Exactly.

那就是杰瑞了。

Jerry then.

杰瑞就像是那座桥。作为一座桥，他不会去拆毁它。我的意思是，这仍然是个大问题，因为他也在对抗收购要约。我觉得他，嗯，他四面楚歌。你懂吗？

Jerry is like the bridge. As a bridge, he's not gonna be dismantling it. I mean, it's still a big problem because he's also fighting the takeover bid. I think that he's well, he's beset. You know?

第二季的结尾变得有点像《幸存者》真人秀，只不过多了些开司米毛衣和豪华轿车司机。这个家庭变成了一个循环射击小队。最后，洛根·罗伊告诉他最深入涉足家族生意的儿子肯德尔，他将为那起威胁要摧毁家族企业帝国的重大性骚扰及掩盖丑闻背黑锅。

The end of season two became a little like Survivor played out with more cashmere and limo drivers. The family turned into a circular firing squad. And at the end, Logan Roy tells his most entwined in the business son, Kendall, he's gonna take the fall for the massive sexual harassment and cover up scandal that's threatening to kill the family's corporate empire.

你不是个杀手。你必须成为一个杀手。

You're not a killer. You have to be a killer.

肯德尔的回应是给了你的角色一个吻，一个犹大之吻，随后他走出去公开成为了吹哨人，而你，洛根·罗伊，在电视上直播观看，脸上带着蒙娜丽莎般的微笑。布莱恩，那是一个父亲终于为儿子感到骄傲的微笑，是肯德尔终于进入青春期的标志，还是一位象棋大师同时下十几盘棋，却仍能领先对手好几步的深谋远虑？

Kendall responds by giving your character a kiss, a Judas kiss, as he then goes out and publicly turns whistleblower, which you, Logan Roy, watch live on television with a Mona Lisa smile on your face. Brian, was that a smile of a father finally proud of his son, Kendall finally going through puberty, or was it a chess grandmaster playing a dozen games at once and still keeping several moves ahead of his opponent?

我觉得两者都有点。这小子总算在某种程度上挺身而出了，但这局面相当诡谲。我觉得他有点像是在说，好吧。干得好。

I think it's a bit of both. The lad is finally, in a way, stepping up to the plate, But it's a pretty shifty plate. And I think he's very sort of going, okay. Good. Well done.

洛根一直以来充满了如此多的背叛。而我们突然说，现在公开了。现在曝光了。现在摆在那儿了。它就存在于当下。

We've had so much treachery from Logan throughout. And we suddenly said, now it's public. Now it's out. Now it's there. It's there in the now.

它不再像是那种在家族内部滋生的毒瘤。它被公之于众了。时不时地，不。挺好。不错。

It's not so kind of cancer making held within the family. It's out there. Now and then, no. Fine. Good.

继续说吧。然后他就想，好吧。是的。那相当不错。我们做得相当好。

Get on with it. And so and then he thinks, okay. Yes. That's rather good. We did that rather well.

那是坎德尔相当高明的一步棋。我理解这一点。但同时，来吧，现在好戏开始了。我们该怎么办？我们要怎么应对这个局面？

That was a rather good move on Candle's part. I understand that. But at the same time, go, so now this is where the fun starts. What are we gonna do? How are we gonna deal with this?

当然，洛根的特点就是他热爱挑战。他热爱挑战。而且，我的意思是，他认为这是肯德尔的一种背叛行为，但他就是喜欢那种老将重新焕发活力的感觉。我得好好对付这个不知天高地厚的小子。

And, of course, that's the thing about Logan is he loves the challenge. He loves the challenge. And, I mean, sees it as an act of betrayal on Kendall's part, but he just loves the fact that the old juices are gonna get going again. I'm gonna have to deal with this whippersnapper.

你在现场说过，这算是一个完结，但老将宝刀未老，我们现在还有很长的路要走。洛根必须重新证明自己。然而季终集的标题是'这不是为了眼泪'，这是引用自约翰·贝里曼的诗《梦歌29》。可怕的是，他睁着眼睛，盲目地听着，所有的钟声都在说太迟了。这不是为了眼泪，思考着。

You said at the scene, it's a completion, but there's life in the old dog yet, and we've got quite a journey now. Logan has to reclaim himself. Yet the season finale was titled, this is not for tears, which is a quote from John Berryman's poem Dream Song 29. Ghastly, with open eyes, he attends, blind, all the bells say too late. This is not for tears, thinking.

这捕捉到了第二季结束时洛根的实际情况吗？

Does that capture Logan's reality at the end of season two?

不。我觉得那非常好。'这不是为了眼泪'。我觉得那非常好。洛根的特点是他极其务实。

No. I think that's very good. This is not for tears. I think that's very good. The thing about Logan is he's incredibly practical.

他用务实的态度处理一切。他不态度否认。你知道，他身边的每个人都在态度否认。他的存在造成了这种情况。当然，他也对此感到非常厌倦。

He deals in practical terms with everything. He doesn't attitude denies. You know, everybody attitude denies us around him. His presence creates that. And, of course, he's so bored with it.

当然，这也很乏味。这要追溯到他十八岁生日时，人们送来所有那些礼物。而他却只是说，所以，我的意思是，我该怎么做？我理解这一点，因为你知道，当你走到人生的某个阶段时，你会想，什么能打动人心？真正打动人心的，是人们做自己、展现真实自我的行为。

And, of course, it's so tedious. That goes right back to his eighteenth birthday when they bring all these presents. And he just goes, so, I mean, what am I supposed to do? And I understand that because, you know, when you've got to a certain point in your life, you're going, what impresses? And what impresses is people behaving, being themselves.

这就是洛根的困境。对他来说，悲剧在于这些孩子没有一个做真实的自己。他们都是被塑造出来的形象。在某种程度上，洛根也是一个被塑造的形象，就像我们所有人一样。我们都在构建自己生活的结构。

And that's the difficulty for Logan. That's the tragedy for him, is none of these children are themselves. They are constructs of who they are. And Logan, to a certain extent, is also a construct, as we all are. We all construct a structure of our lives.

但有时这种构建令人窒息，有时它会阻止你绽放。阻止你成长。他意识到他的孩子们，你知道，他们被塑造得很彻底。而他自己某种程度上已经远离了那种状态。他已经超越了那种局限。

But sometimes the construct is suffocating, and sometimes it stops you blooming. It stops you growing. And he realizes with his children, you know, that they are quite construct. And he's sort of moved away from that. He's moved beyond that.

他不过是又一个行将就木的白人男性老古董。《继承之战》第二季第八集“邓迪”是我最喜欢的剧集之一，在这一集中你回到洛根·罗伊的家乡，也是布莱恩·考克斯的家乡，通过以洛根·罗伊的名字命名一所新闻学院来庆祝他从事新闻业五十周年。插一句，罗曼给你买了苏格兰足球俱乐部哈茨，他以为那是你童年支持的球队。你却告诉他你支持他们的死对头希伯尼安。一场关于姿态与空洞姿态的精彩戏码。

He's just another white male dinosaur in a death row. One of my favorite episodes of Succession, season two episode eight, Dundee, in which you return to Logan Roy's hometown, also Brian Cox's hometown, to celebrate fifty years in the news business by dedicating a journalism school bearing the Logan Roy name. Quick segue, Roman buys you the Scottish football club hearts, which he thought was your childhood team. You tell him you support their rival club Hibbs. A delicious scene of gesture and empty gesture.

布莱恩·考克斯是支持哈茨、希伯尼安、邓迪队还是邓迪联队？

Is Brian Cox hearts, Hibbs, or Dundee or Dundee United?

我既支持邓迪队也支持邓迪联队。哦，我

I'm both Dundee and Dundee United. Oh, I

我就知道。当洛根·罗伊回到他的出生地时，《继承之战》本可以给这个怪物赋予人性。相反，他们让他显得更加冷酷无情。但对你来说，作为一名全球热门剧集的明星，回到你的出生地是什么感觉？你在剧中扮演一个白手起家的媒体巨头，回到一个同样出身卑微的家乡，这种戏里戏外的交织（Wheels Within Wheels）对你来说是怎样的体验？

knew it. When Logan Roy returned to his birthplace, Succession could have humanized the monster. Instead, they made him appear even bleaker. But what was it like for you to return to the town of your birth as a star of a globally popular show in which you play a self made media titan returning to a similarly humble rooted hometown, Wheels Within Wheels? What was that like for you?

很棒。我是说，我过得很愉快。但当我回家时，你知道，就像我母亲说的，那只是在电影里。事情总是会被这样淡化。你懂吗？

It was great. I mean, I had a great time. But the thing about when I go home, you know, it's like my mother says, it was only in film. There's always this kind of flattening of things. You know?

我的意思是，如果你做了任何稍微有点好或令人兴奋的事情，他们都会说，嗯，那还挺不错的。你知道，就这样。这就是你得到的赞扬。你学会了接受这一点。我一生都在接受这个事实。

I mean, if you do anything that's remotely good or exciting, they'll all say, Well, that was quite nice. You know, that's it. That's the praise that you get. And you learn to live with that. And I've lived with that all my life.

我接受了这样一个事实：我总是被限制在我的位置上。我仍然是那个小布莱恩·考克斯。我仍然是那个特定考克斯家族中最小的孩子，这一点不会改变。

I lived with the fact that I'm always kept in my place. I'm still the wee Brian Cox. I'm still the youngest kid of that particular Cox family, and that doesn't change.

你是，但坦率地说，你个人的崛起和洛根·罗伊虚构的崛起一样引人入胜，一个来自邓迪的穷小子成长为电视上最受欢迎的亿万富翁。洛根·罗伊是一个了不起的角色，你的职业生涯也很幸运。你曾将其描述为一个变形者。你在舞台和银幕上扮演了数百个角色。在你个人的角色层次中，洛根·罗伊处于什么位置？

You are, but yet your own personal rise is quite frankly as fascinating as Logan Roy's fictional one, a penniless boy from Dundee rising to become TV's favorite billionaire. It is a hell of a role, Logan Roy, and you've had a fortunate career. You've described it as that of a shape shifter. You played hundreds of characters on stage and screen. Where does Logan Roy live for you in your own personal hierarchy?

这是一个毕生工作的顶峰，得到了一个现代版的，嗯，莎士比亚式的角色，恕我词穷。它具有巨大的维度，而且不到结束就不算结束。所以你仍然在打磨洛根·罗伊这份礼物，它不断给予。

It's the culmination of a lifetime's work to get as a role that's a modern kind of well, Shakespearean, for the lack of a better word. It has tremendous dimension, and it's not over till it's over. So you're still working on the gift that is Logan Roy, and it keeps giving.

他是个可怕的人，但你对得到这个角色表达了如此强烈的感激之情。你说过，在我这个年纪，能得到这样的角色已经很感激了。洛根证明，只要你坚持得足够久，最终你会得到一个让你觉得，是的，就是这个。这就是我现在应该做的角色。这其中有一个惊人的人生教训，布莱恩。

He's an awful person, but you have expressed such a sense of gratitude of his role coming along. You've said, I'm at a certain age when you're just grateful to get a role like this now. Logan is proof that if you stick around long enough, you'll eventually get a role where you think, yep, this is right. This is what I should be doing right now. There's an amazing life lesson in that, Brian.

我换了个角度说，嗯，实际上，有机会去探究这些人是谁，真正理解他们自我动机的根源，这是一种特权。这就是我工作的伟大之处。你知道，我的工作让我能够这样做，并为我提供了这样做的素材。当你得到像洛根·罗伊这样的角色时，那是极乐，因为那是极好的素材。

I turned it on his head and said, well, actually, it's a privilege to be given the opportunity to investigate who these people are, to actually understand where they come from in terms of their own self motivation. And that's what's great about my job. You know, my job allows me to do that and it gives me the material to do that with. And when you've got a role like Logan Roy, it's bliss because it's fantastic material.

这正印证了你母亲那句关于勤奋与信念的老话所总结的人生重要教训。属于你的东西

It's a reflection of that important life lesson summed up by an old saying of your mother's about hard work and faith. What's for you?

不会错过你。正是如此。就是这样。完全如此。这是我毕生信奉的格言——当我遭遇失败、在职业生涯中经历多次拒绝时，总会想起我母亲常说的：该是你的总会属于你

Will not go by you. Exactly. And it is that. It's very much that. That's been an adage of all my life that when I've lost out and I've had a lot of rejection in my career, but I've always come back to that thing that my Ma used to say, what's funny will not go by you.

谢谢您，布莱恩·考克斯。祝您一路顺风

Thank you, Brian Cox. Godspeed.

保重

Take care.

我们下周再见。在此之前，来段经典的考克斯时刻

We will be back next week. Until then, some classic Cox.

滚开

Fuck off.