如何摆脱混合办公的困境

我是艾迪·伊格内修斯。

I'm Adi Ignatius.

我是艾莉森·比尔德，这里是《哈佛商业评论》创意播客。

I'm Allison Beard, and this is the HBR Ideacast.

好的。

Alright.

那么艾莉森，我觉得在这个弹性工作的时代，关于我们是否需要到办公室上班仍存在很多分歧。

So, Allison, I feel like in this age of flexible work, there's still a lot of disagreement as to whether we need to be in the office or not.

是啊。

Yeah.

我完全同意。

I completely agree.

我认为在组织内部，管理层和员工之间对此存在争议。

I think within organizations, there's debate between managers and employees.

我认为不同组织正在实施不同的政策，但没人能确切知道什么才是正确的

I think different organizations are implementing different policies, and no one knows exactly what the right thing to

该怎么做。

do is.

对。

Right.

但他们态度很坚决。

But they feel strongly.

我是说，你知道，有些管理纯粹主义者坚持认为必须让人每周来五天上班，他们假设如果我们看不到员工，他们就没在工作。

I mean, you know, there are the managerial purists who feel like you gotta have people in five days a week with this assumption that if we can't watch them, they're not working.

对吧？

Right?

这某种程度上是个信任问题。

It's sort of a trust issue.

亚马逊CEO安迪·贾西要求所有人每周五天都回办公室。

Andy Jassy, the CEO of Amazon, has everybody coming back five days a week.

我认为对他来说不完全是信任问题。

I don't think it's trust for him as much.

他是个数据驱动的人，但有些事情无法量化，他却坚信在办公室能增强这些方面。

He's a data guy, but there are things that you can't measure, but that he just feels strongly are enhanced when you're in the office.

就是我们常说的那些——协作、自发互动，这些对文化建设和创新都有好处。

And that's, you know, the things we talk about of collaboration, of spontaneous interaction that that is good for culture and is good for innovation.

所以，有些人对此立场非常坚定。

So, you know, you got people who feel very strongly about that approach.

而另一些人则对相反立场同样坚定。

And then you have people who feel equally strongly about the other side.

你知道的，我是弹性工作的狂热支持者。

As you know, I am a flexible work fanatic.

现在是周三，按说我们该在办公室——可你在了。

You are at the office right now on a Wednesday when we're supposed to be.

我在家呢。

I'm home.

嘘。

Shh.

别告诉别人。

Don't tell anyone.

但也有像GitLab这样的公司，他们完全采用远程办公。

But you also have companies like GitLab, which are all remote.

每个人都很灵活。

Everyone's flexible.

没人来办公室。

No one comes to the office.

他们每年会组织几次线下聚会，而且运营得非常出色。

They bring people together a couple times a year, and they're doing fabulously.

他们有很多变通方案来确保协作和自发互动仍然能够发生。

And they have many workarounds to make sure that that collaboration, that spontaneous interaction still happens.

还有第三种选择。

There's then a third option.

混合办公很复杂，我认为很多公司都觉得自己在这方面做得不够好。

Hybrid is complicated, and, I think a lot of companies feel that they aren't doing hybrid as well as they could.

我看看。

I look.

过去我认为数据很明确，显示人们在家办公比在办公室效率更高。

I thought the data was clear in the past that people were more productive working at home than they had been working in the office.

我想早期的部分数据集已经表明了这一点。

And I think I think some of the early datasets have shown that.

但最近的数据显示情况似乎并非如此。

More recently, it sounds like that's not necessarily the case.

所以我认为越来越多的公司需要思考如何正确实施混合办公模式，既满足管理层需求又兼顾员工利益。

So I think more and more companies need to think about, alright, how to get hybrid right in a way that that works for management and that works for employees.

本期播客我们邀请到了该领域的几位专家。

So joining me in this week's podcast are a couple of specialists in the field.

他们分别是沃顿商学院教授、人力资源中心主任彼得·卡佩利，以及资深人力资源战略师拉尼亚·内梅。

So Peter Capelli, a professor at Wharton School and director of its Center on Human Resources, and Rania Nemay, who is a senior HR strategist.

两人合著了《哈佛商业评论》文章《混合办公仍不奏效》，以及即将出版的新书《办公室礼赞：混合与远程办公的局限》。

They're the coauthors of the HBR article Hybrid Still Isn't Working and of the forthcoming book, In Praise of the Office, The Limits to Hybrid and Remote Work.

拉尼亚、彼得，欢迎你们。

Rania and Peter, welcome.

很高兴来到这里。

It's great to be here.

谢谢。

Thank you.

曾有一段时间，数据似乎显示远程工作者实际上比办公室员工效率更高。

At one stage, the data, I thought, seemed to show that remote workers were actually more productive than those in the office.

而在你们的文章中，引用了一些最新研究，似乎得出了相反的结论。

Now in your article, you cite some recent studies that seem to show the opposite.

那么，彼得，也许先从你开始。

So, Peter, maybe I'll start with you.

我们现在处于什么状况？

Where are we?

员工在远程工作还是在实体办公室环境中效率更高？

Are are workers more effective working remotely or in a physical office environment?

嗯，我的意思是稍微退一步说，这取决于我们讨论的是哪种工作。

Well, I mean, just to back up just a a tiny bit, it depends on what kind of work we're talking about.

我认为我们尚未完全理解的一个关键点是，在新冠疫情后转向远程办公时，我们首次能够将办公环境与办公工作本身区分开来。

I think the big thing that we have not quite got our hands around yet is that after COVID, when we were going remote, we were able for the first time to disentangle the office context from office work.

那么办公工作的本质是什么？

So what does office work look like?

过去它总是在办公室里完成的。

And it was always done in an office.

所以我们其实并不真正了解办公工作的本质。

So we really had no idea about what the nature of office work really is.

我认为我们学到的一点是，许多办公工作不仅需要与他人互动，还需要某种社交交换。

And one of the things I think that we have learned is that a lot of office work requires not just interaction with other people, but kind of a social exchange.

比如我找你帮忙处理某事，你愿意帮忙是因为我们就坐在一起。

So I ask you for some help with something, and you do it because I sit next to you.

然后你也可以找我帮忙，因为我欠你人情，而我认识财务部的人，打个电话就能把事情办妥——这才是工作真正推进的方式。

And then you can ask me because I owe you a favor, and I know the person in accounting, and I call that person up, and that's how things get done.

对吧？

Right?

所以我认为最初的研究是针对独立贡献者进行的。

So I think the initial studies were done on individual contributors.

这些人比如专利律师、呼叫中心员工，他们不需要与办公室里的任何人互动，就算在火星上工作可能也没关系。

These are people like patent attorneys, call center people, who don't interact with anybody in their office, and they could be on Mars, and it probably wouldn't matter.

而近期的研究则关注互动关系，结果显示效果并不理想。

The more recent studies are ones that are looking at interactions, and they're showing not such great outcomes.

在最近的研究中，整体生产力或多或少都有所下降。

Lower productivity, more or less, across the board, I think, in these more recent studies.

所以这取决于你讨论的具体内容。

So it depends what you're talking about.

你明白吗？

You know?

有些人不需要在办公室工作，可能从来就不需要；而另一些人则依赖社交关系来推进工作，当他们见不到面时就会遇到困难。

There are people who don't need to be in the office and probably never did, and then there are those for whom the social relationships really are how they got things done when they don't see each other that's struggling.

所以在我们的办公室，也就是哈佛商业评论和哈佛商业出版社，我们并没有要求员工必须回到办公室，因为我们始终无法圆满地完成这句话。

So for our at our office, at at Harvard Business Review, Harvard Business Publishing, we haven't required people to be back in the office because we've never quite been able to finish this sentence.

你需要来办公室是因为... 这些听起来似乎有道理的无形因素，比如自发的互动和协作，但很难证明其必要性。

You need to be in the office because and there are these intangible things that sort of sound right, spontaneous interaction and collaboration, but it's hard to prove.

如果员工持怀疑态度且不情愿，就很难完成这句话并断言'你需要来办公室，因为我们知道会产生这些结果'。

And if if if workers are skeptical and they're not inclined, it's just hard to finish that sentence and say, you need to be in the office because we know it will have these results.

但是，你的意思是这些无形因素实际上可以被测量、正在被测量，并显示出明显趋势吗？

But, I I mean, are you suggesting that that some of these intangibles really can be measured, are being measured, and are showing a a clear trend?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，白领工作确实很难量化。

I mean, it's hard to measure white collar work.

所以很难进行前后对比，因为我们之前没有试图去测量这些。

So it's hard to see before and after because we weren't looking at it trying to measure it before.

但你可以看到非常明显的问题，比如在新员工入职方面。

But you can see pretty obvious issues, for example, with onboarding.

这就是问题的本质。

And this is the nature of the beast.

对吧？

Right?

如果你是有经验的员工，拉尼亚和我基本上都是远程工作的。

If you are an experienced worker, both Rania and I work remotely largely.

对吧？

Right?

我们也知道，如果你是组织里的新员工，你需要周围有人帮助你。

We also know that if you're a new hire in the organization, you need people around you to help you.

对吧？

Right?

所以这是一种，你知道的，你在那里是否符合组织的利益？

So it is this kind of, you know, is it in the interest of the organization for you to be there?

是的。

Yes.

当你经验丰富后，这对你个人有利吗？

Is it in your personal interest once you're experienced?

不。

No.

但现在部分问题在于，你知道，美国的平均工作任期也就四年。

But part of the problem now is, you know, average job tenure in The US anyway is four years.

所以我们有一整批在组织中的人只了解远程或混合办公模式，他们并不真正清楚事情是如何运作的。

So we have an entire cohort of people in organizations who have only known the remote or hybrid world, and they really don't know how things are working.

这会让他们花费更长时间。

And it takes them longer.

至少在我交谈过的一个地方，他们认为人们需要多花大约两个月才能进入工作状态。

At least one of the places I spoke to, it took about two months longer, they thought, for people to become functional.

好吧。

Okay.

每次招聘新人时都要多花两个月，这可是个大数字。

Two months longer, every time you're hiring people in now, that's a big number.

对吧？

Right?

我记得最初有人说远程办公似乎可行。

I remember some people saying initially, remote work seemed to work.

但也有人表示，没错，但在那些曾经共事过、现在远程工作的人之间确实存在一种默契和理解。

But I remember some people saying, yeah, but there is kind of a reservoir of of of and understanding among people who had worked together who are now remote.

当这种默契随时间逐渐消散时，你就会失去它，然后这些优势也将不复存在。

But when that sort of dissipates over time, you're gonna lose that, and then these these advantages will will disappear.

我很想听听您对远程工作对企业文化、协作等方面影响的看法。

I'd love your take on on what what you think remote work has done to corporate culture and and collaboration and some of these things.

我认为首要问题是，你无法用管理现场团队的方式来管理远程或混合办公的员工。

Well, I think first and foremost, one of the the biggest issues is that you can't really manage remote or hybrid workers the same way that you managed in person teams.

办公室文化实际上依赖于近距离接触。

So office culture really depends on proximity.

它依赖于正式信号和自发的协作。

It depends on formal cues, on spontaneous collaborations.

在混合办公模式下，你必须要有意识地设计这些行为规范。

And in hybrid setups, you really need to design those behaviors intentionally.

因此，你不能用管理全员坐班团队的方法来有效管理远程或混合办公团队。

So you cannot kind of effectively manage teams, of remote or hybrid workers using the same method that you relied on when all employees were in the office together.

我们发现，协作和学习效果往往会因此大打折扣。

So what we found, for example, is that collaboration and learning really tends to suffer.

员工们只专注于完成个人绩效考核指标。

Employees are really focused on meeting their individual KPIs.

正因如此，他们往往无暇协助同事或处理团队协作任务。

And because of that, it's really at the expense of helping their colleagues or working on collective tasks.

通常来说，除非与求助员工有私交，否则人们只会优先完成自己的任务——有私交时响应速度会更快些。

So typically, you know, people will finish their own tasks unless they had a personal relationship with the employee asking them, then in which case they were more inclined to respond sooner.

这同样给新人带来了困扰，他们有时难以获得所需的帮助。

So this again also poses, you know, a problem for new hires who who sometimes don't get the help that they need.

这本质上反映出职场社交纽带的缺失。

And this is really a manifestation of the absence of of social ties.

我们的记忆如此短暂，但当时办公室能正常运转、没有彻底崩溃反而让我们感到惊讶。

We have such short memories, but we were surprised that anything worked in offices that the wheels did not fall off.

人们非常高兴且感恩能在办公室工作——我的意思是，相比冒着感染风险去办公室，能在家工作并有份工作已经很好了。

People were really happy and grateful to be in the office and to not have to be I mean, to be home rather than rather than being in the office and risk infection, to have a job at all.

实际情况比我们预期的要好得多。

So it was remarkably better than what we expected.

我认为部分原因是当时我们只是顺势而为，从未真正适应新冠疫情经历的特殊性——这种特殊性可能不会持续到疫情后。

And I think part of what happened is we just rolled with that and never really adapted to the fact that there was something unusual about the COVID experience that might not continue on afterwards.

正如拉尼亚所说，好吧。

So as Rania is saying, okay.

现在危机结束了，我们该如何管理员工？

Now how do we manage people when the crisis is over?

我们从未考虑过这个问题。

We never thought about that.

我们只是顺其自然。

We just let it roll.

那么请告诉我这样理解是否准确。

So so tell me if this is fair.

你写的这篇文章似乎在暗示，理想的工作模式是疫情前我们采用的那种——员工需要物理上聚集在一起办公。

It seems that the article you've written seems to say that the ideal work setup is the one we did before COVID, where where people were physically together.

但你撰写这篇文章的目的，其实是帮助人们理解：如果在疫情期间缩减了办公空间，你可能无法一次性容纳所有员工同时返岗。

But the article you've written is to try to help people understanding that you may not have enough office space if you downsize during COVID to even accommodate everyone all at once.

而且你知道，你的员工可能还没准备好回来上班，如果突然强制要求所有人必须每周五天到岗，可能会引发某种抵制情绪。

And, you know, you know, your workers might not be ready to come back, and you risk kind of a a a revolt if you just said everybody's gotta be back five days a week.

这样理解对吗？

Is that fair?

我是说，你认为最佳工作模式是否就是我们开始远程办公和混合办公之前的那种？

I mean, do you think the best setup is the one we had before we started working remotely in in a hybrid way?

我会说'对谁而言最佳'永远是个关键问题。

I would say best for whom is always the question.

我们现在发现的是：根据你的经验，有时那些最有价值、最有议价权的员工反而更希望居家办公。

What we're discovering now is your experience, and sometimes your most valuable employees who have the leverage would like to be at home more.

而且他们通常有孩子，或者搬去了有趣的地方，财务总监们意识到，如果能缩减办公空间，可以省下不少钱。

And they have often kids, or they've moved to someplace fun, and CFOs realize that if you could cut your office space, this could save us a lot of money.

对大多数人来说，在办公室效率更高。

For most other folks, they're more productive in the office.

对其中一些人（不是大多数）来说，他们确实感到错过了社交联系。

And for some of them, not most, but for some, they really feel that they're missing out on the social connections.

远程工作带来了更多的社交隔离。

We have more social isolation with remote work.

而且，对于新员工来说，他们确实需要与人接触。

And, again, for the new hires, they really need to be around people.

所以问题总是对谁更有利。

So the question is always better for whom.

这里的答案是雇主和管理层掌握着所有筹码。

The the answer here is that employers and management have all the marbles.

所以他们可以做出决定，并通过不同的管理方式让混合办公模式发挥作用。

So they can make the decisions, and they could manage differently to make hybrid work.

他们似乎就是没有采取行动。

They just don't seem to be doing it.

对于那些真正打算保持远程或混合工作模式的公司来说，唯一的前进道路就是停止假装混合模式会自行完善，而是真正开始以更有效的方式解决我们如何管理混合工作的问题。

Those companies who really are going to remain remote or in a hybrid work arrangement, the only way forward is really to stop pretending that hybrid will fix itself as well and to really start to fix how we manage hybrid in a more effective way.

是的，这将需要更多的意图、更多的努力，以及制定更多规则来确保其落实。

And yes, it will require more intention and more effort, and more rules to have them in place.

但这将是真正平衡员工需求与组织利益的最佳方式。

But this would be the best way for it to really balance also employee and kind of organizational needs and interests.

那我们实际来讨论一下吧。

Let's talk practically then.

所以如果很多公司都处于这种状况，可能他们甚至不确定什么对自己是最理想的方案，但他们认为我们需要某种混合解决方案。

So so if a lot of companies are in this situation, and maybe they're not even sure what the ideal thing is even for for themselves, but but they figure we're in a place where we need some sort of hybrid solution.

我认为有些混合解决方案糟糕透顶。

And I think some of the hybrid solutions are terrible.

我是说，有些妥协方案——你知道，没有什么比混合会议更糟糕的了。

I mean or or or some of the compromises, you know, there's nothing worse than a hybrid meeting.

对吧？

Right?

当一部分人在办公室会议室里，另一部分人通过电话接入，可能还有些人关掉了摄像头。

When some people are in the office in a conference room and other people are are phoning in and maybe some of them have their video off.

我是说，没有比这更糟糕的情况了。

I mean, there's nothing there's nothing worse than that.

所以，也许我们实际点来讨论，甚至可以从虚拟会议这类事情开始。

So so maybe let let let's talk practically, and and we could even start with the kind of the virtual meetings.

如果你必须采用混合模式或想要采用混合模式，对于如何让这种模式为大多数公司更好地运作，你有什么想法？

I mean, if you have to go hybrid or you wanna go hybrid, what what are what are some thoughts you have on how to make it work better for most companies?

正如你所说，混合模式最糟糕的方面之一，其实远程工作整体也是如此，就是远程会议效果特别差。

One of the worst things about hybrid, as you say, but also remote in general, is meetings remotely don't work particularly well.

会议数量似乎大幅增加了。

The number of meetings appears to be up a lot.

花在会议上的时间也似乎大幅增加了。

The amount of time spent in meetings also appears to be up a lot.

会议带来的挫败感似乎大幅增加了。

The frustration of meetings appears to be up a lot.

那么现在该怎么办呢？

Now so what do you have to do?

我们必须为会议制定一些规则，虽然我们还没这么做，但这很容易实现。

We have to put some rules around meetings, which we have not done, but it's easy to do.

比如规定会议应该有多少人参加。

You know, rules about how many people should be in the meeting.

我听人们说现在扩大会议规模更容易了，因为只需要把更多人加到名单里，而他们也想参与，你就加上了。

And what I heard from people is that it's easier to make meetings bigger because all you have to do is just add people to the list, and they wanna be on, so you add them.

你不再受办公场所的限制了。

You don't have the constraint of the office space anymore.

我很抱歉。

I'm sorry.

你知道的，会议室不够大。

You know, the room's not big enough.

我们没法把100个人塞进这里。

We can't put a 100 people in here.

对吧？

Right?

但你可以让100个人参加Zoom会议。

But you can put a 100 people in a Zoom meeting.

操作起来非常简单。

It's pretty simple to do.

我们还听说会议时间变长了，而且需要会后会。

The other thing we heard is that meetings go longer, and they need post meeting meetings.

我问大家为什么需要会后会？

And I was asking people, why do you need post meeting meetings?

因为人们不知道会议在讨论什么。

Because people don't know what's going on in the meetings.

我问，怎么会这样？

I said, why not?

嗯，他们在做其他工作。

Well, they're doing other work.

他们为什么要那样做？

Why are they doing that?

因为摄像头都关着。

Well, my camera cameras are off.

我是说，远程会议中规定或默认关闭摄像头的做法在我看来很荒谬，但这似乎很普遍，大家都关着摄像头。

I mean, why you should have a rule or a norm that cameras are off in remote meetings seems to me crazy, but that seems to be widespread, that cameras are off.

所以人们都在做其他工作。

So people are doing other work.

他们根本没在专心听会。

They're not paying attention.

会议效率非常低下。

The meetings are not productive.

所以要限制会议规模。

So limit the size of meetings.

限制会议能做的事情，把其他事情放在别处处理。

Limit what you can do with meetings and what you should do elsewhere.

确保制定'摄像头必须开启'的规则。

Make sure the rule is cameras on.

从这里开始执行。

Start there.

我们还看到像Atlassian这样的完全远程办公公司。

There's also we see, like, fully remote companies like Atlassian.

他们要求会议期间必须开启摄像头。

You know, they require cameras, for example, to be on during meetings.

否则就干脆不要参加会议。

Otherwise, you just don't attend the meetings.

他们还会定期跟踪和评估会议效果，确保这些会议值得召开。

And they also track and review, meeting effectiveness regularly to ensure that they're worth having.

其他公司如GitLab则有数百页远程工作行为指南，包括对紧急沟通的定义、响应方式、协作规范等具体期望。

Also, other companies, for example, like GitLab, they have hundreds of pages of guidance on remote work behavior, including expectations for what is considered urgent communication, how to respond, how to collaborate, and so forth.

所以，你必须再次有意识地规范行为。

So, you know, you really have to be intentional, again, about behavior.

不能听之任之。

So you don't leave it to chance.

你需要将其书面化。

You need to write it down.

你需要严格执行。

You need to enforce it.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为最典型的例子——现在从企业那里听到最关键的问题是：在混合办公模式下，人们根本不遵守到岗要求。

I think the best the best example of that, the thing that is maybe most important that you're hearing from companies now is people just don't show up for the in office requirements in hybrid.

我们要求每周到岗两天，但他们就是不来。

So we tell them be in there two days a week, and they just don't come.

我们看到的调查显示，73%的雇主表示存在严重的出勤问题——要么是‘咖啡打卡’现象，就是来刷个卡、喝杯咖啡就回家。

So one of the surveys we saw, 73% of employers said they have real attendance problems, or they coffee badge, you know, which means I come in, I swipe my badge, I get a cup of coffee, I go home.

我已经达到要求了。

I've met the requirements.

这里的一个问题是，如果你让每个人都自己选择来办公室的日子，那么当你来的时候，那天几乎没人在那里。

And one of the problems there is if you let everybody pick their own day to come in, then you come in, and there's almost nobody there on that day.

于是你就会想，我为什么要来这里？

And so then you say, why am I here?

就像你指出的那样，结果往往是即使你在办公室，会议也是虚拟的，你就会想，我为什么要来这里？

And then as you pointed out, you often end up with a meeting that's virtual even though you're in the office, and you say, why am I here?

然后他们下周就不来了。

And then they don't come the next week.

接着没人考勤，很快我们就陷入了恶性循环。

And then nobody takes attendance, and then soon we fall the race to the bottom.

没人在那里。

Nobody's there.

所以混合办公模式正在失败，我认为最主要的原因是人们就是不来。

So hybrid is failing, I'd say, most prominently because people just don't come.

所以你关于人们关闭摄像头的观点，我认为实际上引发了一场有趣的辩论。

So your point about people turning off their cameras actually, I I think, gets into an interesting debate.

这么做的动机是，也许你今天状态不佳。

The motivation for that was, you know, yeah, maybe you're not having a great day.

或许不是，但你知道，那就关掉摄像头吧。

Maybe you're not, but but, you know, so put your camera off.

我们...你知道，这没问题。

We we you know, which is fine.

听起来是件好事。

It sounds like a nice thing.

但这也发生在员工掌握主动权的时候。

But it also you do that when when employees have have the leverage.

对吧？

Right?

而且我认为现在CEO们有种感觉，或许我们对员工太迁就了，太顾及他们的感受——比如他们觉得不太舒服，我们就去迁就。

And and I think there is there's now a sense among CEOs, you know, maybe maybe we've been too accommodating to employees and to, you know, people's people's feelings of of, you know, not feeling quite right, so let's accommodate them.

你之前说过，雇主可以为所欲为。

There was something you said earlier that said, you know, employers could do whatever they want.

我的意思是，这种主动权已经发生了转变。

I mean, that that that leverage has kind of switched.

如果你说每周要回办公室五天，那就必须回来五天。

And if you say you're back five days a week, you're back five days a week.

如果有人辞职，也许也无所谓。

And if people quit, maybe that's fine.

你是否同意权力动态已经转变，雇主现在拥有更多权力，并且有能力像你说的那样制定这些你认为有益的规则？

Do you agree that the power dynamic maybe has shifted where employers have more power and have the ability to, as you say, lay down some of these rules that you think would be beneficial?

是的。

Yeah.

让我稍微调整一下这个说法。

So let me just, maybe slightly alter it here.

我认为问题在于我的独立性和选择会影响同事，而我们尚未意识到这一点。

I think the issue is my independence and choices affect my colleagues, and we haven't recognized that.

明白吗？

You know?

所以如果我可以选择自己想去公司的日子，但这不适合其他人，我们让每个人都自选日期，结果就行不通了。

So if I get to pick the day I want to come in, but it doesn't suit anybody else, we just let everybody pick their own days, and then it doesn't work.

对吧？

Right?

因此问题可能不仅在于赋予员工更多权力（这点我们已经做到了），而是让每个员工都能选择适合自己的方案。

So it it is probably not just giving employees more power, which we've done, but giving individual employees the ability to pick what works for them.

这在疫情期间是情有可原的，因为当时每个人的家庭情况都大不相同。

That happened during COVID for understandable reasons because everybody's circumstances at home were so different.

但现在再说'作为员工你可以选择最适合自己的方式'就不合理了。

But now it doesn't make sense to say you as an individual employee get to pick whatever works best for you.

你仍然可以实行混合办公制，而不必允许每个人都按自己的方式行事。

You could still have a hybrid, without allowing every individual their own way of doing it.

我想来的时候才来。

I come in when I want.

如果我愿意，我可以打开摄像头。

I have my camera out if I want.

如果我愿意，我可以不回应。

I don't respond if I want.

我是说，这样根本行不通。

I mean, that just doesn't work.

我是说，确实有这样的情况，我们也发表过文章指出，允许这种灵活性的公司拥有持久的竞争优势。

I mean, there have been those, and and we've certainly published articles that say companies that allow that kind of flexibly, that is an enduring competitive advantage.

除非人们没有完成工作。

Unless people aren't getting the work done.

那就不是竞争优势了。

That is not a competitive advantage.

当人们试图正确实施混合办公时，我记得他们用过这样的说法：办公室应该像个俱乐部会所，或者我们应该组织黑客马拉松，让员工聚在一起做那些无法远程完成的事情。

When people were trying to get hybrid right, I remember they used terms like, the office should be like a clubhouse or, you know, we should organize hackathons, you know, that that let's get people here and do something that you cannot do remotely.

你是否需要在办公室工作日增添些花样，使其与远程工作日截然不同，从而营造出这种被感知的价值感、协作氛围和健康文化？

And do you need to to sort of jazz things up on office days to make it really distinct from remote workdays in order to create this perceived sense of of value and and collaboration and healthy culture?

很多公司正在这样做，就是创造所谓的'重要时刻'。

A lot of companies are doing just that, which is, you know, creating things like moments that matter.

真正让员工主动想来办公室，而不是被迫要求来。

So to really get p get get get, employees wanting to come into the office rather than it being mandated.

对吧？

Right?

但我们还建议的一点是，要有意识地建立这些社交纽带，这在远程工作中是相对缺乏的。

But one of the things that we also suggest is, you know, the importance of building these social ties intentionally, the ones that we don't have so much of when it's remote settings.

没错。

Right.

所以一个明显的切入点是在新人入职时建立联系。

So an obvious place to start here is really to forge connections with new hires, especially during onboarding.

比如将同期入职的新人分组，为他们配备导师，列出需要结识的重要人物名单并确保落实，组织跨团队的工作午餐，打破信息孤岛。

Know, cohort new hires, pair them with mentors, create a list of important people that they need to meet and make sure that you follow-up on that, that they do meet those people, organize working lunches across teams so to get people out of their silos as well.

任何能让员工聚在一起的项目——甚至是志愿活动——都有额外好处：既能建立人际关系，又能让人们更自愿地回到办公室。

So any program that really brings employees together, even volunteering opportunities or so, are ones that really it's an added benefit of building personal relationships and getting people to come back maybe more voluntarily, into the office as well.

但我想我们不是在建议搞些小恩小惠的表面功夫

But I think we're not suggesting bread and circuses.

对吧？

Right?

我们说的是制定规则，比如

We're saying rules that would say, okay.

当你开会时，在办公室的时候就是开会时间

When you're doing meetings, when you're in the office, that's the time to do meetings.

对吧？

Right?

对于无法到场的人来说这是个问题

And for people who can't be there, that's a problem.

我们不能让每个人都自行决定是否参加我们的会议日

We can't let everybody decide whether they're gonna come in on our meeting days.

而在办公室期间，我们会尽量安排最适合线下完成的工作

And while you're in the office, we're gonna try to organize the work that is best done in person.

所以我认为当Ranya谈论有目的性的事情时，不只是因为有趣而吸引人们回来，而是因为到场很重要我们才让他们回来。

So I I think when Ranya's talking about purposeful things, it's not just enticing people to want to come back because it'll be fun, but we're bringing them back in because it's important to be there.

我认为这正是我们做得不好的地方。

And I think that's what we have not done well.

确实如此。

Exactly.

让我们想象一下人们正在听这些话。

Let's imagine people are listening to this.

他们正在说，是的。

They're saying, yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

你就是在对我说。

You are speaking to me.

我们处于混合状态。

We're in a hybrid situation.

这不太好。

It's not great.

我知道可以做得更好。

I know it can be better.

我不知道如何改进。

I don't know how to make it better.

有哪些实际步骤可以帮助人们评估他们当前的安排是否合适？

What are some practical steps, right, that people can take for assessing whether or not the their current arrangement is okay?

如果不合适，他们该如何从这里到达理想状态？

And and then if not, how do they get from from here to there?

你们为什么不各自尝试回答这个问题？

And why don't you each take a crack at that?

好的。

Yeah.

让我从简单的事情说起，然后把更难的留给Rania来回答。

Let me start with the simple stuff, and then I'll leave Rania to answer the harder things here.

简单的事情就是你的IT系统已经能告诉你的事情。

The simple things are things that your IT system could already tell you.

对吧？

Right?

比如实际发生了多少互动，我们花在会议上的时间是增是减，Slack频道里求助的‘叮’声有多少得到了回复，或者人们在Teams或其他软件上回复需要多长时间。

And that's, you know, how much interaction actually is going on, how much time are we spending on meetings, is it up or not, how many pings that is requests for help in our Slack channel get answered, or how long does it take people on Teams or some other software to reply.

你也可以自己做个小小的实验。

And you can run a little experiment yourself.

其实你可以直接让人力资源部门来做这件事。

So you can actually just, ask your HR people to do this.

明白吗？

You know?

让我们看看人们需要多久才能回复。

Let's see how long it takes people to reply.

让我们给不认识的人发消息，告诉他们我们正在研究互动情况，看看他们多久会回复。

Let's ping people I don't know and just tell them we're trying to learn some things about interaction and see how long it takes people to reply.

我从一些地方听到的一个令人困扰的现象是：如果你向我求助，如果我认识你，我就会回复你。

One of the things that was troubling that I heard from places is that if you're pinging me for help, if I know you, I get back to you.

如果我不认识你，你的请求就会被排到最后，可能第二天才会得到回复。

If I don't, it falls to the bottom of the queue, and maybe I get back to you the next day.

所以你可以通过这些方式初步评估情况，也可以通过询问新员工——他们对现有安排没有既得利益——看看他们有多迷茫。

So you can assess how things are going initially those ways, and also by just talking to your to your new hires, right, who don't have any stake in the current arrangement and ask them how lost are they.

对吧？

Right?

评估真正的问题。

Assess the real problem.

这将是第一步，就像彼得提到的。

That would be the first step, what Peter mentioned.

正如我们也说过的，关键是要制定明确且可执行的规则，这同样适用于会议效率问题。

And as we also said, is really to set clear and enforceable rules, again with meeting effectiveness.

此外，还可以制定其他规则，比如当同事将请求标记为紧急时，无论是否认识对方，都必须立即响应，以确保每个人都受到平等对待。

Also, it can be other rules like, you know, you must respond immediately if a colleague marks an urgent as a request as urgent, not only to colleagues that you know, but to everyone else, even people that you don't know, in order to make sure that everyone is treated equally.

当然，这里还需要提供关于什么情况构成紧急的指导原则。

Of course, here you would also have to provide guidance as to what constitutes, urgent.

或许公司还可以要求员工每天指定特定时段供同事联系。

And perhaps companies can also require employees to designate certain hours each day when they're available to coworkers.

我们之前还提到过更具操作性的要点，比如如何衡量绩效表现。

Then there's also more actionable points that we had mentioned, things like how to measure performance.

可以在KPI中加入及时响应求助请求、指导新人、协助同事等指标。

You know, you can add KPIs that include things like responding in a timely manner to requests for help, mentoring, assisting new hires, peer support.

所有这些都可以纳入KPI体系，并作为决定奖金、加薪和晋升的考量因素。

So all of this can be added in your KPIs and can be used as factors to determine, you know, bonuses, merit raises, promotions.

我们还在研究的另一个方面是职业规划与晋升。

Something else also that we were looking into is career planning and advancements.

当管理者难以直观了解远程员工与同事、下属及同级的相处情况时，该如何做出职业晋升决策呢？

You know, so how can managers make decisions about career advancements when they can't really easily observe, you know, how remote workers get along with their colleagues or their subordinates and their peers?

因此，像GitLab或Shopify这样已经在实施的公司，正采用360度全方位同行反馈来评估人际交往和领导能力。

So companies that are already doing this, GitLab or Shopify, are using 360 degree, peer feedbacks to assess, interpersonal and leadership skills.

是的。

Yeah.

关于这一点，我认为我们听到最令人不安的情况是，人们晋升主要基于个人贡献评分，因为上级无法看到他们如何与他人互动。

Just on that one, one of the most troubling things I think we heard was the sense that people were getting promoted based largely on their individual contributor scores because the people above them couldn't see how they interacted with other people.

他们从未真正负责过可供观察的具体事务。

They never had to really run anything that they could observe.

所以，你知道，那些独立贡献者更有可能成为管理者，这并不理想。

And so, you know, people who are individual contributors were more likely to become managers, which is not, you know, ideal.

我个人认为另一点是要把这视为组织变革的实践。

I would say the other thing, personally, is to think about this as an organization change exercise.

对吧？

Right?

这意味着你必须从'燃烧的平台'故事讲起。

And that means you have to start with the burning platform story.

你知道吗？

You know?

我们为什么必须这么做？

Why do we have to do this?

这是我经常从人们那里听到的说法。

Which is something that I heard fairly often from people.

现状一切正常。

Things are fine.

我们为什么要考虑改变？

Why do we have to think about changing?

如果你认为现状并不理想，就必须向他们证明问题所在，而不是让他们误以为管理层不信任你们，所以想让你们在办公室接受监督。

Well, if you think they're not fine, you have to demonstrate to them why they're not fine and not simply, which people are assuming, that the problem is management doesn't trust you, and so they want you in the office where they can watch you.

这不该是真正的原因。

That should not be the reason.

真正的原因应该在于协作。

The reason should be about collaboration.

但你必须能够向员工证明这一点。

But you have to be able to demonstrate to employees.

看。

Look.

我们研究过这个问题。

We looked at this.

我们发现这些流程耗时太长，这是个问题，我们必须解决它。

We saw how long this stuff is taking, and this is a problem, and we gotta deal with it.

你需要为此提出充分理由，之后就是标准的组织变革问题了。

You gotta have the make the case for it, and then there's you know, it's a standard organization change issue after that.

我会从会议开始改革，这是最容易制定规则的——关于虚拟会议。

I would start with meetings, which are the easiest thing to set rules about, virtual meetings.

对吧？

Right?

规定会议规模不宜过大、必须开启摄像头、按议程进行——这些本就是理所当然的要求。

Not that hard to say meetings shouldn't be this big, cameras have to be on, start with agenda, you know, things that always would have made sense.

我们以前没这么做，但现在真的非常需要执行这些规则。

We didn't do them before, but boy, we really need to do it now.

你说过每家公司情况不同，会有不同的要求和规则，但都应该制定规则并坚持执行。

You know, you've said that every company is different and that you're gonna have different requirements, different rules, but that you should have rules and you should stick with them.

那么根据你的研究或观察，你觉得办公室办公的理想天数是多少？

That said, you know, do you have a sense from the research you've done or that you've monitored, you know, is there an ideal number of days in the office?

是否存在一些基本的最佳实践？

Are there some, you know, basic best practices?

你刚才提到了一些关于如何开展虚拟会议的建议。

You know, and you just mentioned maybe a couple for for how to run virtual meetings.

但办公室办公的理想天数究竟是多少呢？

But, you know, are there are is there an ideal number of days in the office?

要实现混合办公，是否有些基本要求或基础方法应该是标配？

Are are there some things that that should just kinda be table stakes or or or, you know, basic approaches if you wanna get hybrid right?

最糟糕的情况就是制定了规则却不执行，这正是现在正在发生的。

The worst situation is to have rules and not enforce them, which is what's happening now.

对吧？

Right?

我们规定了核心办公日，但人们不来上班，而我们对此几乎无所作为。

So we have mandated anchor days, and people don't come, and we don't do much of anything about it.

对吧？

Right?

这只会破坏整个组织的运作。

That just undermines the whole organization.

关于具体天数，我认为我们无法明确说两三天就是标准。

I think in terms of also the number of days, I don't think that we can really say where there's two or three.

没有放之四海皆准的方案，每个组织都需要找到适合自己的模式。

There's no one size fits all, and I think every organization needs to see what works for them.

但就核心办公日而言，我们发现有时具体天数完全由各地经理自行决定。

However, in terms of, for example, the anchor days, what we see is that sometimes that's left the decision of of how many days is left entirely to each local manager.

这导致执行过程中出现很多不一致的情况。

And this leads to a lot of inconsistencies in the implementation.