真正能改变他人想法的方法

Deal 不仅仅是一个薪酬平台。

Deal's not just another payroll platform.

它可能是你的团队真正喜欢的平台。

It's one your team might actually enjoy.

HR、IT 和薪酬终于整合在一起了。

HR, IT, and payroll together finally.

自主研发，只为安心无忧。

Built in house, built for peace of mind.

访问 deel.com/hbrpodcast。

Visit deel.com/hbrpodcast.

欢迎收听 HBR 领导力频道。

Welcome to HBR on leadership.

这些节目精选了全球顶尖商业与管理专家的案例研究和对话，帮助你激发身边人的最大潜能。

These episodes are case studies and conversations with the world's top business and management experts, hand selected to help you unlock the best in those around you.

我是 HBR 高级编辑兼制作人，阿曼达·科尔西。

I'm HBR senior editor and producer, Amanda Kersey.

想想你平时的说服方式。

Think about your typical approaches to persuasion.

当你试图让别人接受你的观点时，你会提供多少信息？

When you're trying to bring people over to your side, how much information are you giving them?

你做了多少情感上的诉求？

How many emotional appeals are you making?

你提出了多少问题，好让对方觉得是他们在做决定，而不是你？

How many questions are you asking so that they feel like they're making the decision, not you?

这个2020年的Ideacast节目探讨了为何缓解抵触情绪，而非一味施压，往往是更有效的策略。

This Ideacast episode from 2020 considers why easing resistance rather than pushing harder is often the more effective approach.

以下是主持人艾莉森·比德。

Here's host Alison Beard.

你如何让别人支持你的想法、购买你的产品，或改变他们的行为？

How do you get someone to back your ideas, buy your products, or behave in a different way?

无论是上司、同事、客户、供应商还是投资者，你如何让他们理解你的观点？

Whether it's a boss or a peer, customer or client, supplier or investor, how do you get them to see things how you do?

我们大多数人对自己的观点、偏好和习惯都极其固执。

Most of us get extremely stuck in our opinions, preferences, and habits.

但今天的嘉宾说，即使是最抗拒的人，也有可能被引导走向新的方向。

But our guest today says it's possible to push even the most resistant people in new directions.

他说，说服始于认识到改变如此困难的原因，然后制定策略来克服这些障碍。

He says that persuasion starts with recognizing the reasons why affecting change is so difficult, and then developing strategies to overcome those obstacles.

乔纳·伯杰是宾夕法尼亚大学沃顿商学院的市场营销教授，也是《催化剂：如何改变任何人的想法》一书的作者。

Jonah Berger is a marketing professor at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School and author of The Catalyst, How to Change Anyone's Mind.

乔纳，非常感谢你来参加节目。

Jonah, thanks so much for coming on the show.

谢谢你的邀请。

Thanks for having me.

我们知道，说服在商业、政治以及生活的各个领域都至关重要。

So we know that persuasion is so important in business, politics, all areas of life, really.

有些人似乎在这方面比其他人更擅长。

Some people seem a lot better at it than others.

那么，人们在这个领域犯的最主要错误是什么？

So what's the number one mistake that most people make in this area?

每个人都想改变些什么。

Everyone has something they wanna change.

员工想改变老板的想法，领导者想改造整个组织。

Employees wanna change their boss' mind, and leaders wanna transform organizations.

营销人员想改变客户的想法。

Marketers wanna change the customer client's mind.

销售人员也想做到同样的事。

Sales folks wanna do the same.

初创公司想改变整个行业。

Startups wanna change industries.

非营利组织想改变世界。

Nonprofits wanna change the world.

但改变真的很难。

But change is really hard.

我们常常不停地推动、推动、推动，却什么也没发生。

Often, we push and we push and we push, and nothing happens.

我们想着改变人的想法，想着改变行为，想着改变组织。

We think about changing minds, think about changing behavior, we think about changing organizations.

我们通常会采用某种特定的方法。

Often we take a certain style of approach.

我们认为，只要提供更多信息、更多理由、更多事实、更多数据，再发一份PPT，对方就会改变主意。

We think if we just add more information, more reasons, more facts, more figures, just send people one more PowerPoint deck, they'll come around.

这种直觉在物理世界中很有道理。

And that intuition makes a lot of sense in the physical world.

比如，如果我们坐在一把椅子前，想移动这把椅子，一个好方法就是推它。

If we're sitting in front of a chair, for example, and we wanna move that chair, a good way to move that chair is pushing.

对吧？

Right?

我们轻轻推一下椅子，它就会朝我们想要的方向移动。

We push a little bit on the chair, and it goes in the direction we want it to go.

但在社会领域，这种方法并不一定有效，因为当我们施压时，人们往往会产生抵触。不妨问一个微妙但重要的不同问题：为什么这个人还没有改变呢？

But in the social world, that doesn't necessarily work because when we push people, they often push back, Asking a subtly but importantly different question, why hasn't that person changed already?

是什么障碍或阻力阻碍了改变的发生？我们该如何缓解这些障碍？

What are the barriers or obstacles that are getting in the way of change, and how can we mitigate them?

那么，为什么人们即使面对可能对他们有益的建议，也会有本能地抵触呢？

So why do people have this instinct to push back even when the thing being suggested might be good for them?

我们都喜欢感觉自己掌控一切。

We all love to feel like we're in control.

我们喜欢感觉自己正在塑造并主导自己的生活。

We love to feel like we're shaping, and we're driving our own lives.

我们是在做出自己的选择。

We're making the choice.

但不幸的是，当其他人试图塑造我们的观点时，我们就感觉失去了控制。

But unfortunately, when other people, try to shape our opinions, we don't feel like we have control.

想想几年前风靡一时的‘汰渍胶囊挑战’。

Think about a few years back to the Tide Pod challenge.

如果你还记得几年前，汰渍胶囊曾遇到过这个问题。

So if you remember a number of years ago, Tide Pod was having this issue.

宝洁公司遇到了一个问题：我们平时把汰渍胶囊放进洗衣机来让洗衣更方便，但有人却把它们吃掉了。

Procter and Gamble was having this issue where Tide Pods, the things that we all throw in the laundry to make laundry easier, people were eating them.

所以你想一想，洗涤剂。

And so you think about detergent.

为什么有人会吃洗涤剂呢？

Why would anyone eat detergent?

但《洋葱报》上有一篇有趣的文章说，它们看起来好吃到足以让人吃掉，很快年轻人就开始互相挑战吃汰渍胶囊。

But there was a funny article on the onions saying they look good enough to eat, and soon young people were challenging each other to eat Tidepods.

于是网上到处都在讨论：我们该不该吃汰渍胶囊？

And so there was all this chatter online about, oh, should we eat Tide pods?

该吃还是不该吃？

Should we not?

人们拍摄自己吃汰渍胶囊的视频，许多人因此获得了关注。

People shooting videos of themselves doing it, lots of people getting attention

我们该吃毒药吗？

Should we eat poison or not?

对于这种荒谬至极的事情。

For this sort of ridiculous, ridiculous thing.

所以，想象一下，你现在正坐在宝洁公司的位置上。

And so imagine you're sitting in Procter and Gamble shoes at the moment.

对吧？

Right?

你可能会想，我们为什么要告诉人们不要吃化学品？

You're probably sitting there going, why do we need to tell people not to eat chemicals?

但你可能还是会说，为了以防万一，我们还是发个声明吧。

But you're probably saying, just in case, we'll we'll put out an announcement.

于是宝洁公司就这么做了。

So Procter and Gamble does.

他们发布了一个非常简单的声明：不要吃汰渍泡泡。

They put out a very simple announcement saying, don't eat Tide pods.

为了确保万无一失，他们聘请了著名橄榄球运动员罗布·格隆考斯基——我们通常称他为格隆克——来帮忙。

And in case that wasn't enough, they hire Rob Gronkowski, a famous football player we think of as Gronk, to help.

于是他为汰渍拍摄了一段短视频，说：‘汰渍胶囊真的能吃吗？’

So he shoots this quick video for Tide online saying, you know, are Tide Pods ever safe to eat?

不能。

No.

不能。

No.

不能。

No.

不能。

No.

不能。

No.

不能。

No.

屏幕上闪现。

Flashes on the screen.

显然，这本应足够了。

Now clearly, this should have been enough.

本来就不该有问题。

It shouldn't have been a problem to begin with.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，人们在吃化学物质。

I mean, people are eating chemicals.

但有趣的是，如果你看一下数据，就会发现一些奇怪的现象。

So so but interestingly, if you look at the data, something funny happens.

如果你查看关于Tide泡泡的搜索数据，随着Tide泡泡挑战获得关注，搜索量在缓慢上升。

So if you look at search data for Tide pods, it's it's creeping up as the Tide Pod Challenge gets some attention.

然后宝洁公司和Gronk发布了声明，就在那时，一切都失控了。

And then Procter and Gamble and Gronk make their announcement, and that's when all hell breaks loose.

所以你可能会认为，或者希望，这能让人停止食用汰渍洗衣球。

So you would think or you would hope that that would lead people to stop eating Tide Pods.

无论如何，这本应对汰渍洗衣球没有影响，但实际情况恰恰相反。

If anything, it should have no effect on Tide pods, but the exact opposite, happens.

搜索流量飙升了四倍以上。

Search traffic shoots up, by more than fourfold.

前往中毒控制中心的访问量也大幅增加。

Visits to poison control shoot up as well.

本质上，劝阻人们不要做某事反而适得其反。

And, essentially, asking people not to do something had had backfired.

那么，你该如何让人们克服这种抗拒本能，说‘不’呢？

And so how do you get people to overcome this instinct to push back and say, no.

我不想被人告诉该做什么？

I don't wanna be told what to do?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，关于逆反心理最有趣甚至最糟糕的一点是，这不仅仅发生在我们告诉人们不要做某事的时候。

I mean, the funniest and almost worst thing about reactants is it isn't just when we tell people not to do something.

当我们告诉人们去做某事时，同样的情况也会发生。

The same thing happens when we tell people to do something.

即使那本来就是他们可能已经想做的事情。

Even if it was something they may have wanted to do already.

你可以想想一个会议，你在要求人们支持某个倡议。

You think about a meeting where you're asking people to support a certain initiative.

他们可能已经考虑过支持这个倡议了，但如果你要求他们支持，就会侵犯他们的自由和自主权。

They may have already even thought about supporting that initiative, but if you ask them to support it, it impinges on that freedom and autonomy.

他们会感觉，自己支持这个倡议的原因不再是出于本意，而是因为你命令他们这么做，这会引发他们的本能抵触：也许我就不该配合。

They feel like now the reason they're supporting it isn't because they wanted to, it was because you told them to, which makes them have this knee jerk reaction, well, maybe I shouldn't go along.

因此，解决这个问题的一种方法是我所说的‘提供选择菜单’。

And so one way to solve this problem is to do something I call providing a menu.

比如，想象在你自己的生活中，有人问你：‘这周末你打算做什么？’

So imagine just in your own personal life, for example, someone asks, what are you gonna do this weekend?

或者这个周末你想做什么？

Or what do you wanna do this weekend?

你说：哦，我们去看电影吧。

You say, oh, let's go see a movie.

然后他们说：哦，外面要下雨了。

And then they go, oh, it's gonna be too rainy outside.

或者：不如我们做点别的吧？

Or oh, it's why don't we do something else instead?

对吧？

Right?

他们直接否定了这个提议。

They shoot it down.

但如果你提供两个或多个选择，情况就会突然改变。

But instead you give them two options, multiple options, it suddenly changes their role.

因为现在他们不再思考你提出的建议有什么问题，而是开始考虑你提出的两个选项中哪个更适合他们。

Because now rather than sitting there thinking about all the reasons wrong with what you suggested, now they're thinking about which of the two options you suggested is a better fit for them.

顾问们经常这么做。

Consultants do this all the time.

顾问会说：嘿，你看，如果我向客户提出一个方案，客户会思考所有他们不能做这件事的理由。

Consultants say, Hey, look, if I pitch one thing to the client, the client will think about all the reasons why they can't do it.

如果我向客户提出两个，甚至三个解决方案，他们就会开始 strategizing，好吧。

If I pitch two, maybe even three solutions to the client, now they're strategizing, okay.

这些方案中，我更喜欢哪一个？

Well, which one of these do I like better?

因为他们专注于更喜欢哪一个，所以他们在会议结束时更有可能选择其中一个。

And because they're focusing on which one they like better, they're more likely to pick one at the end of that meeting.

苏，当我们试图让人改变时——无论是改变观点还是我们使用的产 品和服务——还有哪些主要障碍？

Sue, what are some of the other big hurdles that we face when we're trying to get someone to change, you know, whether it's an opinion or the products and services we're using?

所以我发现，在各种情况下都有五个常见的障碍。

So there are five common barriers I found across situations.

我们谈过逆反心理。

We talked about reactants.

下一个是禀赋效应，即我们往往对正在做的事情产生依恋。

The next is endowment, which is we tend to be attached to things we're doing already.

然后是距离问题。

Then there's distance.

如果要求太过分，人们就会忽视它。

Too far, if we ask for something that's too big an ask, people ignore it.

还有佐证证据，即提供更多的证明。

And corroborating evidence, which is all about providing more proof.

我认为另一个大问题是不确定性。

I think another big issue is uncertainty.

每当有变化、有新事物，或我们要求人们做些不同的事情时，都会伴随着风险。

Anytime there's a change, anytime there's something new, anytime we're asking people to do something different, there's a risk associated with doing something different.

旧的东西让人感觉安全。

Old things feel safe.

即使它们并不完美，存在一些问题，但我们至少知道这些问题是什么。

Even if they're not perfect, have problems associated with them, we know what those problems are.

而新事物，我们甚至不知道这些问题是什么。

Whereas new things, we don't even know what those problems are.

因此，人们常常感到非常不确定。

And so often people feel quite uncertain.

如果你仔细想想，新事物通常还涉及转换成本。

If you think about it, new things often involve switching costs as well.

比如，考虑购买一部新手机。

So think about buying a new phone, for example.

购买这部新手机需要花钱。

Costs money to buy that that new phone.

这就是转换的成本。

That's a cost of switching.

但通常还涉及时间和精力的成本。

But there's often time and effort costs as well.

所以，如果你向老板推销一个新项目，他们不仅会想，好吧，做这件事要花多少钱？

So if you're pitching a new project to your boss, for example, they're not only thinking there, okay, well, how much will it cost to do this?

但想想看，得花多少精力啊？

But thinking, god, how much effort is going to be?

我们要把哪个项目的人调走？

Who are we going to switch off another project?

所有这些转换成本都让他们说：算了，谢谢。

And all those switching costs lead them to say, well, no, thanks.

更糟糕的是，想想成本和收益发生的时间。

And even worse, think about when the costs and the benefits occur.

对吧？

Right?

因此，变革的成本通常在前期。

So the costs of change are often upfront.

而收益则在之后。

Where the benefits are later.

我们还得等一两个月才能知道它是否真的能赚钱，或者是不是个好主意。

We're not going to know for another month or two whether it's actually going to make money or actually going to be a good idea.

更糟糕的是，这些成本是确定的，而收益却是不确定的。

And even worse, those costs are certain, whereas the benefits are uncertain.

因此，我称之为成本与收益的时间差。

And so that's what I call the cost benefit timing gap.

对吧？

Right?

成本在当下，而且是确定的。

Costs are now, and they're certain.

收益在将来，而且是不确定的。

Benefits are later, and they're uncertain.

因此，这个成本与收益的差距会使变革难以发生。

And so that that cost benefit gap is gonna make it hard for change to happen.

我很想给你几个类似我们听众的人的案例，他们试图说服同事或客户改变行为，但却遇到了你提到的这些障碍。

So I'd love to give you a few scenarios of people like our listeners who might be trying to persuade colleagues or customers to change their behavior, but coming up against these obstacles you're talking about.

你可以给我们一些建议，告诉他们该如何应对。

And you can give us advice on how they should handle it.

我觉得这就像报纸上的建议专栏。

I feel like this is like an advice column in the newspaper.

我会尽力的。

I'll do my best.

没错。

Exactly.

所以我认为第一个案例涉及的就是你刚才提到的不确定性障碍。

And so I think the first one deals with that uncertainty hurdle that you were just talking about.

你是一位银行高管，负责让现有客户使用一款新应用，并确保它能帮助你吸引新客户。

So you're a bank executive charged with getting existing customers to use a new app and making sure that it helps you attract new customers.

这挺有趣的。

So it's funny.

几年前，我为必胜客做过一个非常相似的项目。

I did a very similar project like this a few years ago for Yum!

品牌。

Brands.

他们的一个餐饮品牌塔可钟正在推出一款应用，这款应用表现尚可。

So one of their food brands, Taco Bell, was actually launching an app, and the app was doing okay.

人们下载了它，但并没有使用。

People were downloading it, but they weren't using it.

因此，我们花了很多时间思考为什么会这样，以及如何改变它。

And so one thing we spend a lot of time on is thinking about why and how to change it.

问题是人们根本不知道这个应用的存在，这是一个认知问题吗？

Is the issue that people don't know the app exists, so it's an awareness problem?

是人们知道这个应用存在，但觉得它不够好？

Do people know the app exists but don't think it's any good?

那我们就需要说服他们这个应用很好。

Then we need to convince them it's good.

是他们觉得应用不错，但不愿意下载吗？

Do they think it's good but they don't want to download it?

好的。

Okay.

为什么会这样？

Why might that be?

他们是下载了但没使用吗？

Are they downloading it but not using it?

这是个不同的问题。

That's a different problem.

所以我认为我们首先需要做的是诊断这个问题。

And so I think the first thing we need to do is is diagnose that problem.

对吧？

Right?

为什么人们不改变呢？

Why isn't aren't people changing?

这个过程中的瓶颈在哪里？

Where is the bottleneck in that process?

然后开始思考如何解决它。

And then begin to think about how to solve it.

所以，假设瓶颈在于人们没有下载这个应用。

So let's say that the bottleneck is people aren't downloading the app.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我认为一个值得问的问题是，他们现在在做什么？

So I think one question I would say is, well, what are they doing at the moment?

对吧？

Right?

他们是高高兴兴地去银行，却不知道这个应用的存在吗？

So are they happily going into the bank, but they don't realize that app exists?

或者他们想，天啊，我不确定这个应用是否足够可信。

Or they think, ah, God, I'm not sure it's gonna be trustworthy enough.

我的个人信息会怎么样？

What's gonna happen with my personal data?

如果这是他们的疑虑，那么问题就是我该如何消除这种不确定性？

If that's what they're uncertain about, then the question is how can I resolve that uncertainty?

对。

Right.

我该如何让他们觉得这其实不是问题呢？

How can I make them feel more comfortable that it's actually not problem?

在这些情况下，我经常想到的就像汽车的试驾一样。

And so one thing I think a lot about in those type of situations is almost like a test drive for cars.

对吧？

Right?

如果你想想，如果一家汽车公司说：嘿，太好了。

So if you think about it, if a car company said, hey, great.

你喜欢我们的车。

You like our car.

你觉得自己可能会喜欢我们的车。

You think you might like our car.

这很棒。

That's wonderful.

付三万美元，然后我们才让你试用。

Pay $30,000 and then we'll let you check it out.

你会说：‘你什么意思？’

You'd say, what what do you mean?

在我确定是否喜欢之前，我不会为一辆车付三万美元。

I'm not paying $30,000 for a car before before I figure out whether I like it.

我想坐进去开一开，做所有这些事情。

I wanna sit inside and drive it and do all those other things.

这正是试驾的作用。

That's exactly what a test drive does.

试驾降低了试用的前期成本。

A test drive reduces that barrier, that upfront cost of trial.

所以，对于这款应用，我也会问同样的问题。

And so I would ask the same thing with the app.

对于那些没有下载应用的人，他们的成本是什么？

What is that cost for those individuals that are not downloading the app?

他们是担心信任问题吗？

Is it they're worried about trust?

好的。

Okay.

你如何向他们展示他们的数据会有多安全？

How can you show them how safe their data is is gonna be?

是他们担心不知道如何使用吗？

Is it concerns about not feeling they know how to use it?

你如何解决这种不确定性？

How can you resolve that uncertainty?

也许可以提供一种专属管家服务，让他们某一天来，每个月都有一天时间，就像苹果商店那样，进行使用培训，教人们如何使用这款应用。

Maybe have a white glove concierge service where they come in one day and you have a day every month, almost like the Apple Store where they do training, where you train people on how to use the app.

请注意，问题是信任，而不是使用方面的知识。

Notice that the problem is trust versus the problem is knowledge about using it.

这是两种非常不同的问题，需要完全不同的解决方案。

Those are very different problems that need very different solutions.

第二种情况。

Second scenario.

你正在和一个团队合作一个项目，你想往一个方向推进，但你的队友却坚信应该走另一个方向。

You're working on a project with a group, and you want to take it in one direction, but your teammate is convinced you should go another.

所以我认为我们之前讨论过的‘反应物’这个概念在这里也同样重要。

So I think that idea of reactants that we talked about before is going to be important here as well.

显然，他们有自己的需求，因此仅仅向他们说明你的想法是不够的。

Obviously, they have something they want, and so you just telling them about what you want isn't going to be enough.

而且，如果你表现出你在极力主张自己的观点，他们反而会抵触。

And if anything, if you seem like you're advocating for what you want, they're going to push back.

因此，第一步是先去理解。

And so first is to just start with understanding.

我在书中多次提到‘拉近距离’的概念。

I talk a lot in the book about shrinking distance.

有时候，我们会考虑一个选择。

Sometimes we think about a choice.

比如在这个情况下，我们是选择我的方案还是别人的方案，就像一个足球场一样，对吧？

Like in this case, do we go with my option or someone else's option, almost like a football field, right?

一端是我的方案，另一端是他们的方案，组织中的不同人可能分布在这一连续体上。

One end zone is my option, the other end zone is their option, and various people in the organization may be arrayed on that continuum.

问题是，如果我们要求太多，要求那个人完全采纳我的方案，他们会说：‘绝对不行。’

And the problem is if we ask for too much, we ask that person to do our option, they're going to say, Well, no way.

那是在足球场的另一端。

That's on the other side of the football field.

那属于我的拒绝区域。

That's sort of my region of rejection.

我根本不会考虑它。

I'm not even gonna consider it.

它离我现在的位置太远了。

It's too far away from where I am now.

我不会移动那么远。

I'm not gonna move that that far.

在这些情况下，会出现一些问题。

In those situations, a couple things come up.

首先，我们通常需要从要求更少开始。

First, often we have to start by asking for less.

不要一开始就要求对方完全转向我的立场，而是提出一个更接近他们现有立场的请求，让他们稍微移动一点。

Rather than starting by saying, hey, completely switched to my side, ask for something that's a lot closer to where they are already and get them to move just a little bit.

这有两个我认为关键的好处。

This has two, I think, key benefits.

第一，它能让对方朝你的方向迈出一小步，同时也让你原本的建议显得不那么遥远。

One, it gets them to move in a little bit in your direction, then it also makes what you're suggesting originally seem less far away.

比如，我曾与一位医生交谈，他正试图让某人减掉大量体重。

I talked to a doctor, for example, that was trying to get someone to lose a bunch of weight.

那是一位超重的卡车司机。

So it's an overweight trucker.

这个人每天喝三升山露汽水。

The guy was drinking three liters of Mountain Dew a day.

他一直在路上奔波。

He was on the road all the time.

在这种情况下，人们的第一反应是让他别再喝任何Mountain Dew了。

The knee jerk reaction in that situation is tell him not to drink any Mountain Dew.

它含有大量的糖。

It's got all this sugar in it.

这就像每天吃几块士力架一样。

It's like eating a couple Snickers bars a day.

对你来说太糟糕了。

It's terrible for you.

直接让他彻底戒掉。

Just tell him to quit cold turkey.

办公室环境中的情况也是如此。

Same thing in office context.

告诉你的同事直接站到你这边，这显然行不通。

Tell your colleague just to switch to your side, which obviously isn't gonna work.

对吧？

Right?

这已经远远超出了他们的接受范围，他们直接就会说绝不。

It's so far in their region of rejection, they're just gonna say no way outright.

所以，她采取的做法是要求更少。

So instead, what she did is she asked for less.

她说，嘿。

She said, hey.

别一天喝三升，喝两升就行了。

Rather than drinking three liters a day, drink two.

于是他嘟囔着说，我不确定我愿不愿意这么做，然后说，好吧。

And so he grumbled and said, oh, I don't know if I wanna do it and said, okay.

行吧。

Fine.

几周后，他回来了，已经把摄入量减到了两升。

And a few weeks later, came back and had gotten it down to two.

当他减到每天两升时，她又说：好吧。

Then when he got down to two, she said, okay.

现在再减到一升。

Now go down to one.

几个月后他回来时，已经从一升减到了零。

And then when he came back a few months later, once he moved from one, moved from one to zero.

但这花了一段时间。

And and it took a while.

对吧？

Right?

不是马上发生的。

Didn't happen right away.

不是一天或一周内就做到的。

Didn't happen in a day or a week.

但这个家伙通过这种方式减掉了超过25磅。

But this guy's lost over 25 pounds by doing this.

因为这不仅仅是要求少一点，而是要求少一点之后再要求多一点。

Because it's not just about asking for less, it's about asking for less and then asking for more.

所以第三种情况，你想要加薪或晋升，试图说服老板你值得获得。

So third scenario, you want a raise or promotion and are trying to convince your boss that you deserve it.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我觉得这里一个很好的例子，就是我们之前提到过的提供选择菜单。

I mean, I think a a good one for this goes back to providing the menu that we talked a little bit about before.

对吧？

Right?

如果你只给老板一个选择，比如我说‘我想加薪’，老板就会考虑拒绝。

If if you give your boss one option, you say, I want a raise, the boss is gonna think about no.

所以你可以这样说，嘿，老板。

So you can say something like, hey, boss.

我想要加薪，或者想要更多的休假天数。

I'd either like a raise or I'd like more days off.

顺便说一下，我会先从别的事情开始。

And by the way, I'd start with something else.

向组织展示你的价值，说：嘿，我在这里已经这么久了，等等等等。

Showing your value to the organization, saying, hey, I've been here this long, this blah blah blah blah.

我希望得到一些回报，比如更高的薪酬、加薪、更多的假期、更多的股权，或者更大的控制权，其他任何东西都可以。

I'd appreciate something, either more compensation, a raise, or more days off, or more equity, or more control, something else.

而这再次给了对方选择的空间。

And what that does again is that gives that person choice.

而不是让你感觉像是突然闯进他们的办公室，直接告诉他们该做什么，因为你引导他们关注你提出的两个选项，他们就不大可能直接说‘不’。

Rather than feeling like you've barged in their office and you've told them what to do, because you're encouraging them to focus on two things you like, they're less likely to think about that third thing, which is just saying no.

当我们谈论影响力时，常常听到它需要同时打动理智和情感。

So often when we talk about influence, we hear it needs to appeal to both the head and the heart.

你知道的？

You know?

你既在呈现数据，又在唤起人们的情感。

So you're presenting data, and you're appealing to people's emotions.

这如何帮助你克服你所提到的障碍？

How does this play in into overcoming the hurdles you're talking about?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为情感确实是这个理念中的一部分。

I think emotion is certainly one of the thing that's wrapped up in this idea.

有许多研究表明，人们更重视自己已经拥有的东西，而不是新事物。

There's lots of research that shows that people value things they're doing already more than new things.

例如，一项著名的研究要求人们：看看这个产品。

So a famous study, for example, asked people, hey, look at this product.

想象你拥有它。

Imagine you own it.

你会以多少钱卖出它？

How much would you sell it for?

他们又问另一组人：想象你没有拥有它，你愿意花多少钱购买它？

They ask another set of people, imagine you don't own it, how much would you buy it for?

研究发现，如果你已经拥有它，那就是现状，你已经在做了，你会觉得它更有价值。

What research finds is if you already have it, it's the status quo, you're doing it already, you value it a lot more.

我们对旧事物有依恋。

We're attached to old things.

比如，还有一些关于买房者和卖房者的有趣研究。

There's even some nice research on home buyers and sellers, for example.

你住在一所房子里的时间越长，即使考虑到其实际价值，你也会觉得它更值钱。

The longer you've lived in a home, the higher more money you think it's worth, even controlling for its actual value.

你会对它产生情感上的依恋。

You become emotionally attached to it.

但我们不仅依恋旧事物，也害怕新事物。

But we're not only attached to the old, we're also scared of the new.

比如，关于新事物恐惧症的研究很多。

There's a lot of work on neophobia, for example.

它指出，我们害怕这个新事物会出问题。

It says, look, we're scared that this new thing is gonna work out.

我们担心它是否真的会成功。

We're anxious about whether it's actually gonna be successful.

每当我们不知道会发生什么时，我们往往想按下暂停键。

Anytime we don't know what's gonna happen, we tend to wanna hit the pause button.

我们害怕新事物。

We're scared of new things.

我们害怕自己不理解的东西。

We're scared of stuff we don't understand.

我们害怕那些与我们目前做法不同的事物，既担心它们可能比我们现有的更糟，也担心它们可能并不会更好。

We're scared of things that are different from what we're doing already, both that they might be worse than what we're already doing, but also they may not be better.

这种焦虑和不确定性常常阻碍了行动。

And that anxiety, that uncertainty often stems action.

这些技巧在不同权力地位的人身上效果是否不同？

Do these techniques work differently depending on who has more power in the situation?

地位较低的人能使用这些技巧吗？

Can someone who's sort of low on the totem pole use them?

那么，老板真的需要这样做吗？

And then does a boss even need to?

毫无疑问，你在组织中的职位越高，权力就越大。

What's definitely true is that the higher up you are in an organization, the more power you have.

你越有能力制定规则，越有能力说：这就是我们正在做的。

The more ability you have to legislate something, the more ability you have to say, this is just what we're doing.

我不在乎你是否愿意做这件事。

I don't care whether you wanna do this or not.

这就是我说了算。

This is just what what I say goes.

我认为，不幸的是，许多正在听的老板都很清楚，他们可能会这么说，但这并不意味着基层员工会行动。

I think, unfortunately, as as many bosses who are listening are probably well aware, they may say that, but it doesn't mean the rank and file move.

我认为这些理念的可贵之处在于，无论你是组织里职位最低的员工，还是拥有制定规则权力的老板，这些工具都同样有用。

What I think is nice about these ideas is whether you're the lowest employee on the totem pole in an organization or you're the boss and you can legislate things, I think these tools are equally useful.

因为要真正改变人们的观念，我们必须理解这些障碍。

Because to really change minds, we have to understand those barriers.

我们必须理解阻碍变革的心理机制，以及如何缓解它。

We have to understand the psychology that's preventing change and and how to mitigate it.

你前两本书探讨的是想法和产品如何流行起来，如何具有传染性，以及无形的影响如何塑造我们的决策。

So your first two books were about how ideas and products catch on, how they become contagious, and how invisible influences can shape our decisions.

在你关于催化剂的研究中，其核心理念是否也是要如此微妙，以至于我们根本察觉不到，而突然间，每个人都开始接受我们的想法，都愿意购买我们的产品和服务？

Is the idea between your work on catalysts that they're also supposed to be so subtle that we don't notice them, and all of a sudden, everyone's buying into our ideas, and everyone wants to buy our products and services?

我认为真正有趣的是，如果你观察不同行业的成功案例，往往会发现相同的模式。

I think what's really neat is if you look at success stories in a variety of industries, you tend to see the same patterns.

因此，对于这本书，是的，我采访了一些优秀的老板和变革型领导者，但我也谈到了一些普通的员工，他们成功说服了老板采纳新项目。

So for this book, yes, I interviewed great bosses, transformational leaders, but I also talked about regular Joes and Janes who got their boss to adopt a new project.

我采访了一些初创公司创始人，他们让自己的产品流行起来。

I talked to startup founders who got their stuff to catch on.

我还采访了人质谈判专家，他们弄清楚了如何让持械者举手投降。

I talked to hostage negotiators who figured out how to get people to come out with their hands up.

在这些多样化的场景中，相同的原理一再出现。

And across this diverse set of situations, the same principles come up again and again.

我认为我们中的一些人可能已经意识到其中的一些原则。

And I think some of us may be aware of some of them.

我们甚至可能在某个特定情况下成功运用过其中一种方法，但通常我们并没有将其系统化，以便真正应用它们。

We may have even done something that was successful in one particular case, but we often haven't codified them in a way that allows us to really apply them.

因此，我喜欢一个框架。

And so that's why I like a framework.

这本书有一个框架，我认为它能让我们说：好吧，让我来诊断这个问题。

This book has a framework to it that I think allows us to say, well, look, let me diagnose that problem.

让我弄清楚哪些障碍——这五个障碍中的哪一个真正阻碍了进展，然后找出针对这些障碍的解决方案中哪些我可以使用。

Let me figure out what the barriers which of these five barriers are really getting in the way, and then figure out which of the solutions underneath those barriers I can use.

你是否担心人们看穿了这些方法，觉得被操纵了？

Do you risk people figuring it out and feeling like they're being manipulated?

我认为这适用于我们所做的任何事情。

I think that's true of anything that we do.

因此，我认为这些工具中的一些要微妙得多。

And so I think some of these tools are a lot more subtle.

我提到的一个想法是提问而不是直接告知。

One of the ideas I talk about is asking rather than telling.

不要直接告诉别人‘支持我的项目’或‘做我想做的事’，而是问他们一些问题。

Rather than telling someone, hey, support my project or do the thing I want, ask them some questions.

我曾和一个试图让学生更努力学习的人交谈。

I was talking to a guy who was trying to get students to study more.

他经营一家考试辅导公司。

He runs a test prep company.

他正努力让学生们多学习。

He's trying to get students to study.

他发现，如果他告诉学生‘你们需要多学习’，他们会说：‘不用了，谢谢。’

He finds if he tells them, hey, you need to study more, they say, no, thanks.

就像在那个会议上，如果我们说‘我们应该做这个项目’，每个人都会说‘不，不’，他们会思考这个项目哪里不对。

Just like in that meeting, if we say, hey, we should do this project, everyone says, no, no, they think about the reasons it's wrong.

因此，他开始改用提问的方式。

So instead, what he started doing is asking questions.