我们的大脑如何学习

这里是《Hidden Brain》。我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔姆。在1986年的电影《春天不是读书天》中，有一个场景已经成为经典。它精准地刻画了那种心不在焉、冷漠疏离的感觉。片中，演员本·斯坦饰演一位经济学老师，这位老师大概拿不到任何教学奖。

This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. There's a scene in the 1986 movie Ferris Bueller's Day Off that has become iconic. It's a spot on portrayal of what it feels like to be disengaged and disaffected. In the film, actor Ben Stein plays an economics teacher who is not about to win any teaching awards.

他用死气沉沉的单调语气讲课。“1930年，共和党控制的众议院，为了缓解……有人知道吗？有人吗？……大萧条的影响，通过了……有人知道吗？有人吗？”

He speaks in a deathly monotone. In 1930, the Republican controlled House of Representatives, in in an effort to alleviate the effects of the anyone? Anyone? The Great Depression passed the anyone? Anyone?

“关税法案……”教室里的学生无聊得近乎呆滞。老师滔滔不绝地提问，却几乎不指望有人回答。确实，没人开口。“今天，我们对这个也有类似的争论。同学们，有人知道这是什么吗？”

The tariff bill The students in the classroom are suffering from a boredom that verges on the catatonic. On and on the teacher goes, asking for responses but barely expecting any. And indeed, no one ventures a word. Today, we have a similar debate over this. Anyone know what this is, class?

“有人吗？有人吗？有人见过这个吗？拉弗曲线。有人知道它说什么吗？”

Anyone? Anyone? Anyone seen this before? The Laffer Curve. Anyone know what this says?

“它说……”既没有兴趣的火花，也没有好奇的闪光。观众很难责怪费里斯逃学，和朋友痛快玩一天。对我们许多人来说，这一幕之所以共鸣，是因为我们自己的校园时光可能就像这样。正在上学的学生看了也许会心头一震。

It says There is no spark of interest or curiosity. The moviegoer can hardly blame Ferris for skipping out on school to spend a day of fun with his friends. For many of us, there is a reason this scene may be resonant. Our own time in school might have resembled this. Students currently enrolled may experience a shiver of recognition.

不仅课堂如此。你有没有参加过那种会议：领导们滔滔不绝地宣讲某个新举措或企业黑话？你眼皮打架，生怕脑袋会从交叉的手指间滑落，砸在会议桌上。这些教室和会议室里缺的就是“投入”——一种全神贯注、警觉机敏的状态，让你渴望学得更多。

It's not just in educational settings. Have you ever attended a meeting where leaders of your organization drone on about some new initiative or corporate mumbo jumbo? As your eyelids grow heavy with sleep, you fear your head is going to fall through your interlaced fingers and crash onto the conference table. What is missing from these classrooms and conference rooms is engagement. A state of being absorbed and alert where you are eager to learn and know more.

本周《Hidden Brain》，我们探讨为何这么多人在学校和职场感到冷漠，以及如何培养投入的魔力。我记得求学时很多日子，无聊到在课堂上睡着；可就在同一天晚上，我却独自待在大学图书馆，埋头阅读与课业无关的书，浑然不觉时间流逝。同一个人，为何在一处无聊得要死，在另一处却全情投入？在南加州大学，心理学家兼神经科学家玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺·杨已研究这个问题多年。

This week on Hidden Brain, why so many of us feel apathetic at school and at work, And how to cultivate the magic of engagement. I remember many days during my school years when I was so bored I would fall asleep in class. But on those very same days, I would find myself alone in a university library at night, pouring over books that had nothing to do with my classwork, oblivious as the hours slipped by. How could the same person be bored to death in one academic setting and completely engaged in another? At the University of Southern California, psychologist and neuroscientist Mary Helen Immordino Yang has explored this question for many years.

她研究投入与动机的科学。玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺·杨，欢迎来到《Hidden Brain》。

She studies the science of engagement and motivation. Mary Helen Imordino Yang, welcome to Hidden Brain.

谢谢邀请。

Thank you for having me.

玛丽·海伦，你现在已是教育学教授，但我听说你小时候却很难对学校产生投入感。

Mary Helen, you're now a professor of education, but as a kid, I understand that you struggled to feel engaged by school.

我真的这么做了。我就是搞不懂在那里做事的意义是什么，也不知道那意味着什么。对我来说，学校根本不像是在学习，而像是在完成任务。我很难形容那种周五下午如释重负、周日晚上满心恐惧的感觉，尤其是在小学后期，还有初中早期。六年级那年，由于学校里发生的种种复杂原因，我最终……

I really did. I couldn't understand kind of what the point was or what it meant to do things there. And school really didn't feel like it was about learning for me. It felt like it was about doing stuff. And I can hardly describe the sense of just release on Friday afternoon and the dread on Sunday night, through my late elementary, especially, and early middle school, sixth grade year, I finally ended up for a lot of complex reasons for things that were happening at school.

最终就干脆不去上学了。我算是“软辍学”吧——早上就是不起床。我想我父母也就随我去了，他们发现我在做各种有趣的事。我们很幸运，住在康涅狄格州一片偏远的林子里。我爸妈都出身市中心，一个来自底特律，一个来自纽约州扬克斯，对吧？

Finally ended up just kind of stopping going to school. I sort of was like a soft dropout about, you know, I just stopped getting up in the morning. And I think my parents just kind of stood back and realized I was doing all kinds of interesting things. We had the great fortune of living in the woods in Connecticut in a very remote place. And my parents were both from the inner city, one from Detroit, one from Yonkers, New York, right?

他们决定要在农场把孩子养大，尽量自给自足，养动物、种吃的等等。于是我全身心投入打理农场、照顾动物。我还弹钢琴，在林子里疯跑，训狗，总之各种事情让我忙得不亦乐乎。

They decided they were gonna raise their kids on a farm and try to grow what we ate and have animals and all kinds of things. And so I was really deeply involved with running that farm, taking care of the animals. I was playing the piano. I was, you know, running around in the woods, training dogs and, you know, all kinds of things that was keeping me very, very busy.

我听说有一次你奶奶在冰箱里发现了你留下的不寻常东西。玛丽·海伦，给我讲讲这个故事吧。

I understand that at one point, your grandmother once discovered something unusual in her refrigerator that you had left there. Tell me that story, Mary Helen.

哎呀，天。当时我稍微大一点，那其实是我教育的一个转折点。我父母有能力给我找另一种教育体系，于是第二年把我转去一所私立学校，那里的学术更严格也更有趣，还有戏剧、美术、合唱等我超爱的东西。

Oh, God. I was a little older. And that actually represents a turning point in my education, I think. My parents had the resources to be able to find a different kind of education system for me. So they moved me the following year into a private school that had, as it turns out, much more rigorous and interesting academics in addition to all kinds of, you know, theater and art and singing and all these other things that I was very interested in.

七年级开始，我就彻底爱上了科学课。谢谢你，苏珊·伦德格伦老师，如果你还在世的话，谢谢你教了我们那么多有趣的东西。我们做了各种实验，解剖花朵、蚯蚓、鱼类，这让我完全沉浸进去。

And so I started there in seventh grade and I just really fell in love with science class. You know, thank you, Mrs. Susan Lundgren, if you're still out there for really like teaching us so much interesting stuff. And we were doing all these laboratory experiments where we were, you know, dissecting all kinds of things from flowers and worms to fish. And that really pulled me in.

于是七年级的科学项目，我决定研究“视觉是怎么产生的”——眼球的结构、我们怎么看见。我查了很多资料，爸爸带我去弄来一堆刚被宰杀的牛眼球，我们拎着一袋眼球回家，准备解剖。我把袋子放进冰箱，结果我可怜的奶奶来串门，打开冰箱问“这是什么”，发现是一袋眼球。不过我还是把那些眼球拆开，努力搞清各部分是什么，跟我手里的模型怎么对应。

So for my seventh grade science project, I decided to try to, you know, figure out how sight works, how we see in the eyeball what the eyeball is structured like and so you know I read all about it and my dad went with me and he basically got a bunch of cow eyeballs harvested out of some cows who had been slaughtered. And and we brought home this bag of eyeballs for me to dissect. And I put it in the refrigerator, and my poor grandmother came to visit and, you know, was like, what's this in the refrigerator and realized it was a bag full of eyeballs. But I did go on to take those eyeballs apart and really, you know, try to figure out what are these different parts? How do they relate to the model I have here?

它们各自在视觉中起什么作用？我就是喜欢自己设计项目、深入钻研，然后还要以严谨的学术方式在学校分享成果。那一年我过得特别充实。

And what are those role they're playing in vision? And, you know, I I really just loved to be sort of self directed and designing my own project and kind of digging in on it, but also being accountable to share what I had learned in a more rigorous academic way at school. So I really thrived that year.

听说你后来对木工和造船产生了浓厚兴趣。玛丽·海伦，你是怎么发现这份热情的？

I understand that you came to be deeply interested in woodworking and boat building. How did you discover this passion, Mary Helen?

哦，我一直喜欢动手做东西。在那片林中小“农场”长大，所有东西都是我们自己建的。飓风刮倒一堆树，我们把它锯成板材，用来围牧场放羊、养马；我们盖了谷仓。我跟着一位老派的北方大叔，他是真正的建筑大师，精通石墙和各种建造活儿，我就像小尾巴一样跟在他后面学。

Oh, I always loved to build things. You know, growing up on this, like, sort of kind of sort of little farm thing in the woods, right? You know, we built it all ourselves. So when there was a hurricane, a bunch of trees fell down and we had those turned into, lumber and boards and we had to build the fences, right, for pastures to have, sheep and things in them and horses. We built a barn and I was tagging along behind this elderly Yankee, gentleman who, who was a really master builder, who he, who, he was an expert in stone walls and at building things.

我当时跟在他后面做他的助手。从那时候起，我就真正开始接触木工，并一路成长。我也曾短暂地对造船、木船制造非常着迷。我去了俄罗斯和肯尼亚，去了世界上那些人们仍在用传统方式建造各种木船的地方，只想和那里的男人们一起干活，把这些船造出来，弄明白他们是怎么用那种歪歪扭扭的红树林木材，造出又直又漂亮、能走直线、还能操控的船。我真的被深深吸引了。

And I was following along behind him as his assistant. And so from there, I really, got into woodworking growing up. I also got very interested in boat building, wooden boat building, for a while. And I went to Russia and to Kenya, you know, different places in the world where people were building traditional wooden boats of different sorts and just was trying to work with people there, with men there, to build these things, to understand how they constructed these, you know, beautiful straight boats that goes, you know, that go in a line and that and that are controllable out of wood, that squirrelly mangrove. You know, I just found that really compelling.

二十出头时，玛丽·海伦开始在公立学校教科学。那所学校有很多来自非洲的移民家庭。她在给他们讲进化论。

In her early twenties, Mary Helen began teaching science at a public school. The school had lots of immigrant families from Africa. She was teaching them about evolution.

让我着迷的是，孩子们开始问我，为什么当我们讲到早期人类和原始人时，他们总被画成深色皮肤，看起来像黑人。我记得特别清楚，一个女孩勇敢地举起手，其他孩子都在旁边推她，说“问啊，问啊”，她问我：“为什么这些早期原始人总是被画成深色皮肤？”当然，他们生活在赤道附近，没有深色皮肤就会被晒伤，得皮肤癌，对吧？

What fascinated me was that the kids started to ask me questions about why when we talked about early humans and hominids, why they were always depicted with dark skin, like they looked like black people. And I remember in particular, one girl, you know, bravely raising her hand, and it just struck me that all the other kids were kind of pushing her on like, Yeah, yeah, ask the question, asking me, Why is that the case? Why do these early hominids always Why are they depicted with dark skin? And of course, they were on the Equator where without dark skin, you would fry, right? You would have skin cancer, you'd be sunburned.

我觉得那是一个转折点，因为孩子们突然意识到，进化和适应环境的概念也适用于他们自己。他们看到自己正在适应新环境，互相打量，发现彼此的不同，于是明白我们之所以是现在这样，跟我们从哪里来、我们的祖先如何适应世界、如何在他们的土地上繁荣有关。这就打开了关于种族、身份，也关于个体差异、发展和经历如何塑造你的对话大门。

And I think it was a turning point moment because the kids suddenly realized that the concept of evolution and of adaptation to your environment was applying to them as well in that context. They were seeing themselves adapt to a new environment. They were looking around at each other and seeing how they were different from one another. And they realized that the reasons we are the way we are is something to do with where we come from and how we've adapted ourselves to fit into the world and to flourish in the spaces in which our ancestors came from. And that became the entree into conversations about race, about identity, but also about individual variability, about the ways in which development and experience shape who you are.

我了解到，经历了这堂课之后，这些学生对科学的投入度也提高了。他们其实想学更多，因为现在他们学的不再是抽象概念，而是他们觉得与自己直接相关的东西。

I understand that after this experience in the classroom, these students also became more engaged with the science. They actually wanted to learn more because now they're not just learning about abstract concepts, they're learning about things that they feel they have a direct connection to.

是啊，他们当中有些人对科学能帮他们探索世界的方式变得非常着迷。我记得有个女孩，我们离海滩很近，但她以前从没去过海边。那个周末她父母带她去了一次，周一早上她兴奋地拎着一个咖啡罐回来，里面装着蜗牛，她给我看，说：“看，它们是活的！这些东西是在海滩上找到的！”

Yeah, they became very deeply interested, some of them, in really the ways that science could help them explore the world. I remember one girl who went for the first time, we were near the beach, but she had never been to the coast before. Her parents took her on a weekend excursion to the beach. And she came back eagerly on Monday morning with coffee can with snails in it and was showing me like, look, they're alive. Like these things were at the beach.

所以我觉得他们真的把一些概念拿过去，用这种方法去探索自己的世界，那感觉非常有力量。

So I think they really took some of the concepts and tried to use that approach to explore their world. And that was incredibly powerful.

所以，当你的学生开始运用科学、思考科学如何应用到生活里时，我也看到你这位年轻老师在看着他们说：“这里有个灯泡亮了。”也许这些学生之前没那么投入，但现在他们的眼睛闪着兴奋的光，拼命想把这应用到自己的生活中。你是什么时候意识到，你看到了关于“投入”这门科学的重要线索？

So even as your students were, you know, using the science and thinking about ways that the science could apply to their lives, I also see you as a young teacher basically looking at these students and saying, some light bulb has gone off here. You know, the these students were perhaps not as engaged earlier, but now their eyes are alight with excitement. They're basically trying to apply this to their own lives. At what point did you have the insight that you were seeing some important clue to the science of engagement?

孩子们早上七点就拎着一罐蜗牛和一点海水冲进教室，说：“看，看，它们是活的！”我觉得投入的真谛就在于，孩子们会自己跑出去，设计自己的项目，用我提供的资源去做他们想象的事。我们把整门课都填满了项目。

I mean, kids were running into my classroom at, you know, 07:00 in the morning with a can, of snails and some seawater and saw right? Saying like, look, look, they're alive. Right? I think the engagement really showed itself in the fact that kids were running off on their own, designing their own things and trying to use the resources I was providing them to do the stuff they were imagining. We filled the course with projects.

我给了孩子们极大的自由去选择做什么活动。我会设定一个目标，比如“我们现在学天文，大概长这样”，然后不同的孩子得自己决定，在这个主题里他们想做什么。

I gave kids a huge amount of leeway in what kinds of activities they would do. Like I set out a goal, right? We're studying astronomy now. Here's what it looks like. But then different kids had to figure out for themselves what did they wanna do in that space?

我真的试着把球踢回给他们，让他们自己决定在这个空间里想做什么。他们打算如何设计这个项目？我建议，你知道的，我在教他们用我在壁橱里找到的显微镜。我在教他们使用我们周围的一些其他科学仪器。然后他们开始为自己设计活动，你知道，这些活动都是基于我在课堂上介绍给他们的东西而展开的。

And I really kind of tried to throw the ball back in their court and make them in charge of deciding what do they wanna do in this space? How are they gonna design this project? I'd suggested, you know, and I was teaching them to use the microscopes that I found in the closet. I was teaching them, to use some of the other scientific instrumentation that we had, floating around. And and then they were designing activities for themselves, you know, that rift off of the things I was introducing them to in the class.

到底是什么让同一个人在一个环境中感到无聊、缺乏动力，而在另一个环境中却充满好奇、热情似火？稍后回来，寻找深度投入的魔法配方。您正在收听《隐藏的大脑》。我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。这里是《隐藏的大脑》。

What is it that makes the very same person bored and unmotivated in one setting and aflame with curiosity in another? When we come back, searching for the magic recipe for deep engagement. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。玛丽·海伦·阿莫迪诺·杨是南加州大学的心理学家和神经科学家。她研究是什么让学生投入和有动力，或者失去投入和热情。玛丽·海伦，为了寻求你自己在学习和教学经历中提出的问题的答案，你成为了一名研究员，在神经科学家安东尼奥·达马西奥手下工作。你们两人试图从神经层面理解投入。

I'm Shankar Vedanta. Mary Helen Amordino Yang is a psychologist and neuroscientist at the University of Southern California. She studies what makes students engaged and motivated or disengaged and disaffected. Mary Helen, as a way of seeking answers to the questions raised by your own experiences of learning and teaching, you became a researcher working under neuroscientist Antonio Damasio. The two of you were attempting to understand engagement on a neurological level.

他曾在实验室尝试各种方法唤起投入，但似乎都没有奏效？

Now he had tried various ways of evoking engagement in the lab, but nothing seemed to be working?

是的。安东尼奥，当我第一次见到他和他的合作者兼妻子汉娜时，他们非常想弄清楚人类大脑是如何围绕思想、社会关系、价值观和信仰产生投入和情感的。在实验室环境中真正引发这些复杂情感竟然出奇地困难。最终非常有效的方法是，把来自世界各地真实人物的生活故事汇集起来，这些人身处各种复杂情境，然后把这些故事编成小型纪录片，我会在一次长达两小时的私密访谈中分享给实验参与者，我会给他们看一段两到五分钟的小纪录片，讲述某个人的处境，然后问他们，这个人的故事让你有什么感受？由此，人们开始真正积极地投入，并向我们外化他们自己的意义建构过程，也就是他们如何理解所听到和学到的东西，并进而开始讲述这对自己意味着什么以及自己的感受。

Yeah. So Antonio, when I first met him and Hannah, his collaborator and wife, were deeply interested in trying to understand how the human brain creates engagement and emotion around ideas, around social, relationships and values and beliefs. And it was remarkably difficult to genuinely elicit those kinds of complex feelings in a laboratory setting. What ended up working just remarkably well was to bring together stories of real people's lives from around the world, people in a variety of complex situations, and, compose these stories into little mini documentaries that I would share with the participants in our experiments in a private two hour long interview where I would show them a small two minute to five minute documentary and tell them the story of someone's situation and then just ask them, how does this person's story make you feel? And from that people began to really start to actively engage with and show us exteriorize their own meaning making process, way in which they made sense of what they'd, heard and learned, and then went from there to begin to tell stories about what it meant to them and how they felt about it.

之后我们把人送进磁共振扫描仪，扫描他们的大脑活动。我们还记录了他们身体的活动，心率、呼吸，也就是所谓的心理生理记录。我们让他们在扫描仪里再看一遍这些故事，并实时按键告诉我们他们在那一刻对故事的情绪投入程度。我们得以设计出一种方法，可以把大脑和身体的活动模式与他们主观实时告诉我们的情绪投入表达联系起来，并观察这些模式与他们如何理解故事、如何在访谈中叙述自己对故事的思考体验之间的关系。

And we moved people to the MRI scanner after that and scanned their brain activity. We also recorded the activity in their bodies, their heart rate, their breathing, right? Called psychophysiological recording at the same time. And we had them watch the stories again in the scanner and push buttons in real time to tell us how emotionally engaged they were with that story at that moment. And what we were able to do was design a method in which we could relate patterns of brain activity and body activity to expressions of emotional engagement that they are subjectively telling us they're having in real time and look at how those patterns were related to the ways in which they made meaning of the story and narratized their own experience of thinking about the story in the interview.

所以你展示的一段视频是马拉拉·优素福扎伊，她描述了在巴基斯坦一个由塔利班控制的地区求学是什么感觉。

So one of the video clips you showed was of Malala Yousafzai who described what it was like to seek an education in a region of Pakistan that was under the control of the Taliban.

在战争中，女孩们可以自由地去上学，不用交学费。但在斯瓦特，我们去学校时非常害怕塔利班。他会杀了我们。他会往我们脸上泼酸，他什么都做得出来。所以

In the war, the girls are going to their schools freely and there is no fare. But in Sawat, when we go to our school, we are very afraid of Taliban. He will kill us. He will throw acid on our face, and he can do anything. So

你把这段视频给了一个叫伊塞拉的青少年看。她感觉如何？她说了什么，玛丽·海伦？

you showed this video to one teenager named Isela. How did it make her feel? What did she say, Mary Helen?

伊塞拉说的话，我觉得非常特别，最终揭示了一种许多青少年以不同方式参与的思维模式。我们发现这对他们的大脑成长和社会成长都非常重要。阿塞拉首先说的是，这个故事让我感到非常难过。对她来说会很难。她想当医生，但因为不被允许上学，这很困难，这很可怕，让我伤心。

What Isela said, I think, was quite extraordinary and turned out to reveal a kind of pattern of thinking that many adolescents engaged in different ways. And that we discovered was very important to both their brain growth and their social growth. What Acella said was first along the lines of, well, this story makes me feel very upset. It's gonna be so difficult for her. She wants to be a doctor, but it's very difficult because she's not allowed to go to school and that's frightening and it makes me sad.

但随后她停顿了一下，这个停顿在神经层面非常关键，因为我们认为此刻她正把自己切换到另一种参与模式，她动用了大脑中负责意识、自传体记忆、讲故事、信念与价值观的系统。接下来她说的话令人震惊。她说：“太疯狂了，它竟然这么有力量。”她还说：“这让我想到自己在教育路上的旅程，我想上大学，希望有一天能成为科学家。”对吧？

But then she paused and that pause is very important neurologically because we think what's happening is she's shifting herself into another mode of engagement where she's leveraging systems of the brain that are involved in consciousness, in autobiographical memory, in storytelling, and beliefs and values. And what she said next was astounding. She said, it's crazy how it's that powerful. She says something like, it makes me think about my own journey in education and how I wanna go to college and hopefully be a scientist someday. Right?

于是她在拿自己的经历与那个女孩的经历做类比，看到其中的相似。但她更进一步，说：“我想真正击中我的，是此刻的情绪——并不是每个人都有机会继续自己的人生、接受教育、做自己想做的事。”她说：“这不公平。”她从分析那个女孩的悲惨处境——这让她很难过——上升到更宏大的叙事：世界应该怎样，什么不该发生、什么可以发生，她和那个女孩在更广阔的世界中是谁，以及这一切对“正义”意味着什么。

So she was likening her own experience to that girl's experience to see the similarity. But then she moves even beyond that and says, I guess what really hits me, like, the emotion is about now is how not everyone's able to get this chance to go forward with their life and get an education and do what they wanna do with their life. And she says, it's not right. She moves from analyzing this one girl's sad situation, which is very difficult and makes her sad, to this much more powerful story about what it means for what's right in the world. What happens, what shouldn't happen, what could happen, and who she and that girl both are in the space of the broader world and what that means for what's right.

她从一个具体的故事里，发明出了道德。

She has invented morality out of a story that was a specific example.

这件事之所以有力，当然是因为她把自己听到的故事与自己的生活联系起来。她不仅把它当作“那边”另一个女孩的故事，而是说：“这也是我的故事。”

What makes this powerful is of course she is relating the story she is hearing to her own life. So she's not just seeing it as this other girl's story over there, but she's saying this is my story too.

她说“这也是我的故事”，但她甚至走得更远。她最后说：“这不公平。想到世界上有些地方的人因为别人不想让他们学习而受阻，我就感到难过。”她开始意识到，她和那个女孩都属于一个更大的世界。

She's saying it's my story too, but she even goes beyond that. She goes all the way toward the end and says it's not right. It makes me feel upset that other people who live in certain parts of the world where they don't want people to learn are trying to hold them back. Right? She starts to understand that both she and this girl are part of an even bigger world.

于是她从那个女孩，讲到自己的故事，再讲到比她们俩都更大的东西。她最后说：“每个地方的人都应该有机会。我的意思是，所有人类都应该自由地生活，选择自己的未来。”她从一个女孩的故事出发，把它与自己希望创造的未来故事联系起来，由此发明了一个关于世界应当如何的价值观——对所有人、在所有地方。

So she goes from that girl to her own story to something even bigger than the two of them. And she ends by saying, everyone everywhere should have the chance. I mean, all human beings should be able to live free and choose their life future. So she has invented an idea, a belief of value about how the world should be for everyone from explaining and making sense of one girl's story, relating it to her own story, relating it to the possible future stories she had hoped to invent for herself. And from there, thinking about what's right or good or possible everywhere for everyone.

像伊塞拉这样的学生与这些故事产生连接，其深度超越了单纯的事实。你们后来把这种参与称为“超越性思维”。这个词是什么意思？

Students like Isela connected with these stories in a way that went beyond the mere facts. You came to call this kind of engagement transcendent thinking. What do you mean by the term?

伊塞拉展现的就是我们所说的“超越性思维”，因为她的思考从当下情境出发，又超越了这一情境，去思考这些例子对更宏大理念的意义——对正义与善、对制度如何运作、对制度背后的意图、对所涉情境与环境的意义，对价值、道德、信念、对未来可能、对历史解读、对所唤起的身份认同。孩子们用多种方式做到这一点，但超越性思维的核心在于：孩子们深深投入到对眼前事物之外更大议题的思考。

Isela engaged in this thing we're calling transcendent thinking because her thinking moved from the current context and transcended that context to think also about what these examples mean for bigger ideas, for what's right or good, for how institutions work, for the intentions behind the institutions and the settings and the situations that she learned about, for the values, the morals, the beliefs, for the possible futures, for the historical interpretations, for the identities that they invoke. Kids did this in many different ways. But the heart of transcendent thinking is that kids became deeply engaged with thinking about something bigger than what was directly in front of them.

你在洛杉矶市区也做过类似研究，让青少年思考他们社区的犯罪问题。跟我说说那项研究以及你们的发现，玛丽·海伦。

You ran a similar kind of study with teenagers in urban Los Angeles, and you asked them to think about crime in their neighborhoods. Tell me about that study and what you found there, Mary Helen.

好的。我们挑选的孩子没有参与任何犯罪活动，没有受到校纪处分，所有课程都及格，家庭环境稳定——用我祖母的话说，就是“过得去”的孩子。我们请他们讲述在社区里目睹或经历的各种可怕、危险的犯罪活动，但这并不是终点。

Right. So we asked kids, who were not involved in any kind of criminal activity, who were not under any disciplinary action at school, who were passing all of their classes, who were from stable home situations. So kids who were, you know, doing fine as my grandmother would have said, right? We asked those kids about the things that they'd witnessed and seen in their neighborhoods, and they told us about a range of scary, dangerous criminal activity of various sorts. But we didn't stop there.

我们接着和他们一起回顾，说，好吧，你说你看到一场毒品交易，或者你说你看到有人被捕，或者你说你看到有人破坏东西，或者有人打架。你觉得为什么会发生这种事？你觉得那个场景里的不同角色有什么感受？你觉得警察有什么感受？你觉得在旁边看的小孩有什么感受？

We then went through with them and said, okay, so you said you saw a drug deal or you said you saw somebody get arrested or you said you saw, somebody vandalize something or somebody get in a fight. Why do you think that happened? And, and how do you think the different actors in that scenario felt? And how do you think the cop felt? How do you think the little kid watching felt?

对。然后我们问了一个非常关键的问题。我们说，想象一下你说了算，你社区里管事的人会照你说的做任何事，作为新政策，目的是让你的社区变得更好、更安全。你会建议他们怎么做？在那里，我们又看到了令人惊叹的各种答案，有些孩子仍然停留在当下，说，嗯，这些人是坏人。

Right. And then we asked them a really pivotal question. We said, imagine you were in charge and the people in your neighborhood who run things, would do whatever you ask them to do as the new policy to try to make your neighborhood a better, safer place. What would you advise them to do? And there again, we saw an amazing range of answers where some kids stayed sort of in the immediate moment saying, well, these people are bad people.

他们做坏事。他们情绪失控。他们生气，没想清楚就行动。他们应该被围捕或者受到某种惩罚。这就是你控制局面的方法，对吧？

They do bad things. They lose control of their emotion. They get angry and they just do something before they think. And they deserve to be rounded up or punished in some way. And that's how you're going to control things, right?

或者有一个孩子说，根本控制不了。这些人就是这样。离他们远点。其他孩子则更进一步说，我觉得你得看更大的图景。我觉得你得考虑这个人的过去。

Or there's nothing that can be done to control it, said one kid. This is just how these people are. Stay away from them. Other kids went beyond this to say, Well, I think you have to think about the bigger picture. I think you have to think about the person's history.

一个孩子告诉我，他说，每个人都有过去。每个人都有故事，这会改变他们，因为他们经历的生活不同。所以如果我们真想为社区做点什么让它变得更好，就该想想为什么这些人会有这样的感受，会让自己陷入这种境地。他接着跟我讲了他自己的家庭，说他一直被爱着、很安全，但也许这些人没有，也许这才是我们该努力的地方，如果我们想让社区变得更好。

One kid told me, he said something like, everyone has a history. Everyone has a story and that changes who they are because of the way they've lived in their life. So if we really wanted to do something to make the neighborhood better, should think about why these people feel the way they do that they get themselves into these situations. And he went on to tell me about his own family and how he had been loved and safe, but maybe these people hadn't been. And maybe that's where we should focus our efforts if we wanted to make the neighborhood better.

所以在超越性思维中，你不仅考虑眼前的事实，还试图看到这些事实如何与其他事实相连，更重要的是，如何把单个事实看作森林里的树。你不仅看到树，还试图看到整片森林。

So in transcendent thinking, you're not just considering the facts in front of you, but you're trying to see how those facts connect with other facts and perhaps more important, how individual facts are like, you know, like trees in a forest. And and you're not just seeing the trees, you're actually trying to see the forest.

没错。你还试图理解是什么让森林运转。对吧？你试图看到那些隐藏的、不立刻显现的力量。你试图理解重力、渗透、气候，对吧？

That's right. And you're trying to understand what makes the forest go. Right? You're trying to see the hidden forces that are not immediately obvious when you just look at the forest. You're trying to understand gravity and osmosis and climate, right?

你试图理解森林背后那些更大的东西，但只是看的时候并不明显。

You're trying to understand the bigger things that are behind the forest, but that are not immediately obvious when you just look at it.

我们知道孩子们进行这种超越性思维时，大脑里发生了什么吗，玛丽·海伦？

Do we know what's happening in the brain when kids are engaged in this kind of transcendent thinking, Mary Helen?

知道。当孩子们进入磁共振扫描仪，再次思考这些同样的故事时，我们能够查看一个年轻人的活动图谱，并把特定时间段对应起来，他们告诉我们，他们在以一种超越的方式思考某个故事，而他们在采访中对此的反应，与那些以更具体方式反应的故事相比。所以我们发现，大脑中有特定的网络属性，会以协调的模式系统地激活和失活，这种模式由孩子表达强烈情绪驱动，并组织了大脑中的基本网络，从而带来超越性思维。

Yes. So when the kids moved into the MRI scanner and thought about these same stories again, we were able to look across a young person's activity profile and match up particular time periods where they were telling us they were thinking about a particular story that they had reacted to in the interview in a transcendent way, as compared to the stories they had reacted to in a more concrete way. And so what we found is that there were particular network properties of the brain that systematically came active and deactivated in this coordinated pattern that was driven by the kid's expression of strong emotion and that organized the basic networks in the brain that led to transcendent thinking.

Mary Helen，这些大脑里的网络是什么？给我描述几个。

What were these networks in the brain, Mary Helen? Describe some of these to me.

在我们分析的层面上，主要有三个网络参与。当然，大脑无限复杂，但这些网络是我们研究的重点。我们发现，那些与情绪有关的网络——让你感受到内脏和身体内部、告诉你心跳加速或胃痛、告诉你路上有蛇并立刻让你警觉的网络——是活跃的。那些让人以目标导向的方式关注外界、学习眼前事物、记住并整合所听内容的网络，在最初几秒钟观看故事时也是活跃的。

So there were three main networks involved at the level that we're analyzing. Of course, the brain is infinitely complex, but these networks were the focus of our investigation. And what we found was that networks that are involved in emotion, in feeling the inside of your guts and visceral body that tell you when your heart's pounding or that you have a stomachache that tell you when there's a snake in your path and suddenly you should and look where you're going, right? Those networks were active. Networks that were allowing the person to sort of focus in a goal directed way on attending to the world and learning about what was in front of them and remembering it and sort of integrating everything that they'd heard were active early, but for the first few seconds of watching a story.

但随后，这些网络被深度抑制，因为孩子放弃了对外界的注意。相反，那些更内在、映射你意识状态、与自传体记忆有关、能超越当下此刻的网络——也就是你用来做白日梦、神游的网络——在孩子思考这些宏大超越性想法时变得协同活跃。因此，我们展示了一种由情绪驱动的、外向注意与内向反思之间的动态权衡，这种跷跷板式的来回摆动，对应着青少年大脑进入不同活动模式，也对应着不同类型的思维。

But then those networks became profoundly deactivated as the kid let go of their attention into the world. And instead networks that are more intrinsically focused that are mapping your state of consciousness that are involved in autobiographical memory that are involved in transcending the current here and now. These are the networks you use to daydream and to mind wander. Those networks became concertedly active as kids were thinking about these big transcendent ideas. So what we showed was that there was a kind of active, dynamic trade off between outward attention and inward reflection being driven by emotion and that sort of seesaw tottering back and forth as the young person was moving themselves into these different modes of brain activity, which are corresponding to different kinds of thinking.

这就是我们发现的与超越性思维相关的模式。

That was what we found was associated with this transcendent thinking.

你发现超越性思维与面对逆境时的韧性有关。这是怎么发现的？

You found that transcendent thinking was associated with more resilience in the face of adverse events. How did you discover this?

最直接的发现来自访谈，谈的是孩子们目睹的暴力和犯罪。我们了解到，目睹或仅仅知道犯罪事件，会与大脑皮层特定区域的变薄有关，这些区域负责外向警觉、情绪、动机和学习——大脑通过对周围危险变得过度警觉和焦虑来应对。而这些区域正是被部署为地面部队的士兵出现变薄的同一区域，也见于临床 PTSD 患者。我们看到，孩子了解的社区暴力越多，这些大脑系统就越薄。

We discovered that most directly with the, interviews about the violence and crime that kids had witnessed in their Because what we discovered was that witnessing or even knowing about crime, was associated with thinning in particular regions of the cortex that are involved in kind of outward vigilance, emotion, motivation, learning, right? Your brain is reacting to the dangerous things around it by becoming hyper vigilant and anxious about it. And these were the same regions in the brain that become thinner among soldiers deployed as ground troops. It's also been shown to be involved in post traumatic stress disorder among people with clinical symptomology. And we were seeing that these very same brain systems were getting thinner in our kids, the more violence they knew about in their community.

但我们也发现，孩子越是用超越性的方式谈论暴力——比如“每个人都有故事或历史，你得跳出眼前这一幕，想想那个人是怎么走到这一步的，这样我们才能把社区变得更好”——这种思维就在这些关键区域与皮层增厚相关。

But what we also found is that the more kids talked in a transcendent way about what could be done about the violence, about why it happens, the more they said things like, well, everybody's got a story or a history. You have to look beyond what happened here in this situation and think about, well, how did that person get here? Right? And that's where we can do something about making our neighborhood better. When kids said things like that, that kind of thinking physically was associated with thickening in the brain in these same pivotal regions for attention and, pain and motivation and learning.

我们发现，以这种超越性方式思考暴力，实际上抵消了暴力对大脑发育的负面影响。

And what we found is that thinking in these transcendent ways about the violence actually counteracted the negative effect of violence on the brain development.

我了解到，参与这种超越性思维的青少年也向你报告了更高的生活满意度？

I understand that teenagers who engaged in this kind of transcendent thinking also reported greater life satisfaction to you?

我们做了纵向研究，也就是跟踪同一批青少年五年，反复把他们带回实验室，让他们讲述自己。令人震惊的是，他们在最初 14–17 岁访谈中表现出的超越性思维倾向——把听到的故事从“这是马拉拉的故事”提升到“这是关于世界何为正义的故事”——预测了他们大脑未来的成长。

So we did a longitudinal study. That means we followed the same group of teenagers for five years, and we kept bringing them back to the lab and then talking to them about who they were and having them tell us about themselves over time. And what we found that was really striking was that their transcendent thinking, the tendency that they brought to the first original interview where they were 14, 15, 16, 17 years old, right? To think about these stories that we were sharing with them in a transcendent way to move beyond just this is a story about Malala to a story about what's right or good in the world for everyone, right? That tendency in turn predicted the future of the growth of their brain.

而这种成长反过来又预测了他们在19岁左右的青春期后期的身份发展，对吗？孩子们会说：是的，我真的在思考我想成为怎样的成年人，我坚持什么、我的价值观是什么、我相信什么、我的目标是什么。而19岁时的身份发展又预测了他们在20岁出头时的成年早期生活满意度。孩子们在20岁出头时的幸福、蓬勃发展和满意度，可以被五年前那次访谈中他们进行更多超越性思考的倾向所预测。所以孩子们必须向我们展示，他们一直在持续地自我成长。

And that growth in turn predicted identity development in late adolescence at age 19 or so, right? How much kids said, Yeah, I really think about the adult I want to become and what I stand for and what my values are and what I believe in and what my purpose is. And in turn, development at age 19 predicted young adult life satisfaction in their early 20s. Kids' well-being and life flourishing and satisfaction in their early 20s was predicted by their tendency to engage in more of this transcendent thinking in the original interview five years before. So kids had to show us that across time they were doing the work of growing themselves.

所以玛丽·海伦，你提出了一个有趣的理论：超越性思考可能正是我们在焦虑和抑郁中常见的思维模式的反面。你能描述这两种思维方式之间的对比吗？

So Mary Helen, you've advanced the intriguing theory that transcendent thinking might effectively be the opposite of the patterns of thinking that we often see in anxiety and depression. Can you describe the contrast between these two styles of thinking?

超越性思考之所以对孩子有保护作用并深刻促进他们的成长，是因为孩子们主动、有行动力地把注意力从“此时此地”抽离出来——他们关注周围、恰当反应、完成任务、投入事务，同时也情感上注意到真正重要的是更宏大的东西。当他们能从那种“冲冲冲、做做做”的状态退后一步，进入“这意味着什么”的思考空间时，他们就在动态地、自主地在两种意义建构方式之间切换，从而建立起心理健康的“神经肌肉”，也为良好的人际关系打下基础。其他研究青少年临床问题的学者发现，当这些相同的神经网络过度活跃、无法灵活交替时，就会出现抑郁和焦虑等心理疾病的神经相关物。当孩子被困在只关注外部世界和表面、担心周围发生什么时，我们称之为焦虑。

What transcendent thinking does that I think is protective for kids and deeply grows them is kids are actively, agentically moving themselves from being here and now in the world, paying attention to those around them, reacting appropriately, getting things done, engaging with tasks, and also noticing emotionally when what really matters here is something bigger. When they can withdraw from that kind of go, go, go, do, do, do, what does it look like into a place where we think about what does this mean? And as kids are actively dynamically shifting themselves between those ways of making meaning, they're building the neural muscle, so to speak, for mental health and for good relationships. Others who are engaging in clinical research with teens are showing that these same networks, when they're hyperactive and not flexibly trading off with one another are involved in what appears to be the neural correlates of these mental illnesses like depression and anxiety. When kids get stuck attending to the outer world and to appearances and worrying about what's around them, we call that anxiety.

当他们被困在另一端，只在自己脑子里反复思考、反刍故事时，那就与抑郁相关。超越性思考让孩子能够根据情境和需求，自主地在两种状态之间恰当切换，这就像一种神经肌肉，我们认为它能带来心理健康。

When they get stuck tipped the other way, where they're in their own head and they're thinking about just stories and ruminating, that's associated with depression. What transcendent thinking does is kids are agentically moving themselves between these two states in appropriate ways according to the situation and what it calls for. And that is like a neural muscle that we think produces mental well-being.

玛丽·海伦认为，超越性思维的发展应该成为每个学生教育的核心。然而事实并非如此。如今，世界各地许多学生都觉得学校无聊得要命。稍后回来，我们探讨如何把“投入”置于教育的中心。您正在收听《隐藏的大脑》。

Mary Helen believes that the development of transcendent thinking should be at the core of every student's education. But of course, it isn't. So many students around the world experience school today as deathly boring. When we come back, how to place engagement at the center of education? You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·维丹塔姆。这里是《隐藏的大脑》。我是尚卡尔·维丹塔姆。玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨是南加州大学的心理学家和神经科学家，著有《情绪、学习与情感神经科学的教育启示》一书。

I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. Mary Helen Immordino Yang is a psychologist and neuroscientist at the University of Southern California. She's the author of Emotions, Learning, and the Exploring the Educational Implications of Affective Neuroscience.

玛丽·海伦，你一直在研究专家级教师，以了解他们如何知道青少年如何发展与茁壮成长。在某种程度上，你正在观察社会科学家可能称之为“正向偏差”的案例——那位数学老师不仅让学生精通数学，而且让学生真正爱上数学。我听说你正在考察这些教师在课堂上的做法？

Mary Helen, you've been studying expert teachers to determine what they know about how adolescents develop and thrive. In some ways, you're looking at examples of what social scientists might call positive deviance. You know, the math teacher who gets students to not just be proficient in math, but to actually love math. And I understand you're examining what these teachers are doing in their classrooms?

是的，没错。我们着手研究在洛杉矶市中心城区工作的教师，他们的校长把他们视为“超级明星”——孩子们真正喜爱、愿意亲近的老师，校长说这些老师真正致力于孩子、做得非常出色。我们联系了40位这样的优秀教师，问他们是否愿意让我们研究他们：在教室里录像，并到实验室来，让我们在他们实际工作时实时扫描他们的大脑。他们批改学生作业、给学生反馈、对看到的课堂活动做出判断，并告诉我们他们的想法。

Yeah, that's right. We set out to study teachers working in urban inner city Los Angeles whose administrators identified them as their superstars, right? The teachers who kids really love, really go to, the teachers who the administrators say are just the ones really dedicated to the kids who do really great work. And so we approached 40 of these amazing people and asked them if they would be willing to let us study them, basically to have us videotape them in their classroom and whether they would come to the lab and actually let us image their brains in real time while they did their work. They graded their students' homeworks and gave feedback to their students and made judgments about classroom activities that they saw and told us what they thought about them.

我们发现的结果非常惊人。我们给他们一份学生的作业，说：这是尚卡尔的作业，请批改。然后这是玛丽·海伦的作业，请批改。接着在他们批改完自己学生的一些作业后，我们又给了他们一些我们声称“不是他们自己学生”的作业。

What we found was quite extraordinary. So we gave them a kid's assignment. We said, this is Shankar's work, grade his assignment. And then, you know, here's Mary Helen's work, grade her assignment. And then after a bunch of their own kids, we gave them a bunch of kids assignments that we told them were not their own kids work.

我们告诉他们这些作业是从网上摘的。实际上，是我们自己写的，并且质量匹配。我们发现，首先，老师对两份作业打分一致——给玛丽·海伦打了B，也给那个我们编造的、思维类似玛丽·海伦的“网上孩子”打了B。所以他们知道自己在做什么。

And we told them we had taken those off the internet. And actually what we had done though, is written those assignments to be matched in quality. And what we found was that first, the teachers graded the two assignments the same way. So, know, gave Mary Helen a B over here and you gave the fake answer that we pulled off the internet from a kid that thinks like Mary Helen also a B, right? So they knew what they were doing.

但我们发现，当他们批改自己学生与不认识学生的作业时，大脑活动差异巨大。在全脑范围内，与动机、注意力、记忆、情绪、自传式思维、观念、信念、意识相关的区域活动都显著增加，对吧？这些老师在看到自己学生的作业时，比看到内容相同但不认识学生的作业时，进行了更多心理、社会和情感上的努力。这告诉我们，优秀教师所做的远不止完成教学任务本身，连批改作业都涉及深刻的社会、情感和高强度付出。那么，两种条件下大脑活动差异的根源是什么？

But what we found was that the brain activity when they graded their own students versus students they didn't know was massively more. All over the brain, we see increases in activity in regions involved in motivation, attention, memory, emotion, autobiographical thinking, ideas, beliefs, consciousness, right? These teachers are doing more mental, social, affective work when they're seeing their own kids assignments than when they're seeing the assignments that are the same but by kids they don't know. What that tells us is that excellent teachers are doing work that is deeply social and emotional and effortful, even beyond what's required to just accomplish the the teaching task, is grading the assignment. So what was accounting for the difference in the brain activity in the two conditions?

我们请这些老师为学生提供开放式反馈。我们问：这是你的学生Mary Helen，如果你要和她面谈她的表现，你会说什么？这是你的学生Shankar，如果你要和他面谈他的表现，你会说什么？

We asked these same teachers to provide open ended feedback to their students. And so we said, here's your student, Mary Helen. What would you say to Mary Helen if you had a meeting with her about how she's doing? Here's your student Shankar. What would you say to Shankar if you, had a meeting with him about who he's doing?

我们想了解的是，老师在给学生的反馈中，在多大程度上真正欣赏并积极支持年轻人心智能力的全面发展。结果发现，老师的反馈越包含这种深度的发展性支持，他们在看到真实学生作业时的大脑活动，就越高于看到不认识学生作业时的活动。

And what we were looking for was to what degree do teachers actually appreciate and support actively in their feedback to their students, the whole development of that young person's capacities of mind. And what we found was that the more a teacher's feedback to their students involved this kind of deep developmental support, the more activity they showed when they saw their real students' assignments versus kids' assignments that they don't know the kid.

真正伟大的老师不只是传递信息。事实上，他们不只是帮助学生思考。他们关注学生的情绪和成长阶段。伟大的老师会问：这个学生作为人的发展处在什么位置？我该如何支持他们的成长？

Truly great teachers do more than convey information. In fact, they do more than help students think. They attend to where their students are emotionally, developmentally. The great teacher is asking, where is the student in their development as a human being? How can I support their growth?

Mary Helen说，神经科学表明，这个问题不能纯粹关乎智力，也必须关乎情感。

Mary Helen says that neuroscience shows that this question cannot be purely about intellect. It has to be about emotion as well.

我认为传统西方哲学常常把认知和情感分开。我们觉得有认知技能，也有情感技能，对吧？也许这两者会互相影响。但实际上，这种看法是错的。它们是同一事物的两个不同维度。

I think our traditional Western philosophies too often separate cognition and emotion. We think that there are cognitive skills and there are emotional skills, right? And that maybe those two things impact on each other, right? But actually, that's the wrong way to think about it. There are two different dimensions of the same thing.

思考本质上同时是认知的和情感的。我们可以从认知视角审视思考，分析其中的认知维度，这很重要；我们也可以从情感视角审视思考，分析其中的情绪投入。但实际上，只要人还活着，还在世界中活动、适应、与周围互动，这两者就始终同时发生、整合在一起。

Thinking is inherently cognitive and emotional always at the same time. And we can look at thinking from a cognitive lens and analyze the cognitive dimensions of what's going on. And it's important to do that. We can look at thinking from an effective lens and analyze the emotional engagement that's going on. But actually, both of those things are simultaneously happening in an integrated way always when people are alive, when they're moving through the world, adapting and engaging with the things around them.

伟大的老师或许本能地明白，要让学生学习，就得让他们在乎所学的内容。可以这么说，情感必须坐在驾驶座上。这不仅是关于学校该如何运作的论点，Mary Helen说，这根本就是人脑被设计成的运作方式。

Great teachers understand, perhaps instinctively, that in order to get students to learn, they have to care about what they are learning. Emotion has to sit in the driver's seat, if you will. This is not merely an argument about how school ought to work. Mary Helen says this is simply how the human brain is designed to work.

是的。从生物学上讲，生物不会浪费能量。对吧？我们不会去想那些无关紧要的事，因为那是在浪费时间和精力。所以，这样想吧：你对什么有情绪，你就在思考什么。

Yeah. In terms of biology doesn't waste energy. Right? We don't think about things that don't matter because that would be a waste of time and energy. So if you think about it this way, whatever you're having emotion about is what you're thinking about.

而你在思考什么，你就可能学到什么。因此，作为父母、老师、普通人，我们需要问自己：我对什么有情绪？当学校和成长中的情绪聚焦于成绩、结果和分数时，你才有希望学到这些。当学校里的情绪聚焦于物理——为什么球会沿着斜坡滚下，以及那个你看不见却拉着球的力，也在拉我们，还让月亮引发潮汐——这时，学习才真正发生，对吧？

And whatever you're thinking about, you might be able to learn about. So we need to ask ourselves as parents, as teachers, as people, what am I having emotion about? And when the emotions of school and development are about the achievements and the outcomes and the results, that is what you have a hope of learning about. When the emotions in school are about the physics, why the ball is rolling down the ramp and this hidden idea that there's this force you can't see that's pulling on the ball and it's also pulling on us and it's making the moon make the tides. Right?

当情感与那个强大的理念相连时，有意义的学习就围绕这个理念展开，这时你才真正构建起可迁移的知识，这种知识在发展中改变了学习者本身。

When the emotion is about that powerful idea, that is when meaningful learning is about the idea and that's when you actually build transferable knowledge that is developmentally changing the person for having learned it.

你看到这种方法对一位学生特别有效，他能把情感和意义附着在一个被称为芝诺悖论的哲学问题上。这个悖论可以追溯到很多世纪以前。想象你在跑一场100米比赛。你首先得跑50米，也就是一半的距离，然后你得跑25米，也就是剩下距离的一半。当然，你可以一直这样做，也就是每次都跑剩余距离的一半。

You saw how this worked for one student in particular who was able to attach emotion and meaning to a philosophical problem that's known as Zeno's paradox. The paradox goes back, you know, many centuries. Imagine you're running a 100 meter race. You first have to run 50 meters, in other words, half the half the distance, and then you have to run 25 meters or in other words, half the remaining distance. And of course, can keep doing this, which is each time you're running half of the remaining distance.

悖论在于，由于你必须跨越无限个一半的距离，你永远也跑不到100米的终点。然而，我们知道在现实世界里，我们都能 routinely 跑完100米。所以这就是被称为芝诺悖论的悖论。请告诉我发生了什么故事，以及这位学生如何把情感和意义附着在这个悖论上，并在他自己生活的情境中理解了它。

And the paradox is that since there are an infinite number of half distances that you have to traverse, you will never reach the 100 meter finish line. Whereas, of course, we know that in the real world, we all routinely can run the 100 meter. So this is the paradox known as Zeno's paradox. Tell me the story of what happened and how the student, attached emotion and meaning, to the paradox and came to understand it in the context of his own life.

这是一个非常出色的数学课程的例子，由纽约市一所替代高中设计，这所学校面向那些在传统学校因各种原因没能通过课程的孩子。他们中有些是刚到美国的新移民，有些过去成绩不佳、与学校脱节，有些则惹上了麻烦。于是这些老师设计了一套颠覆传统的数学课程。

So this is an example of a really fantastic math curriculum that's, that's built by a school in New York City that's an alternative high school for kids who haven't passed their classes in traditional schools for whatever reason. Some of them are new immigrants to the country. Some of them have just failed in the past and not connected with schools. Some of them are in trouble. And so these teachers have designed a math curriculum that turns things on its head.

对吧？但他们其实做对了。他们不是从如何计算的基础积木开始往上堆，而是先抛出宏大、有力、引人入胜的理念，让孩子们沉浸其中，他们选择重要的问题来研究。然后这些问题就成了他们学习数学计算的空间，因为他们被理解问题的渴望驱动。

Right? But they actually have it right. Rather than starting with the building blocks of how to calculate things and working up. They start with big, powerful, intriguing ideas, they get kids involved with those, they choose big problems to work on. And then those problems become the space in which they learn mathematical calculation because they're so driven to understand their problem.

于是，这个年轻人描述说他以前从没通过任何一门数学课。而在这门数学课上，他遇到了一个叫芝诺悖论的大问题。他称之为“走到门口”的问题：你走到一半，再走一半，再走一半，能走到门口吗？

So this one young man is describing how he had never before taken a math class and passed. And in this math class, he was given a big problem called Zeno's paradox. It's this problem that he calls walking to the door. You get halfway, halfway, halfway to the door. Do you ever make it to the door?

为什么能，或者为什么不能？他说，我被这个问题迷住了。为了解决这个问题，我不得不去学分数，我还迷上了渐近线、有限和无限这些概念。他谈到自己如何在被这个宏大理念吸引与为了满足好奇心而学习计算和数学概念之间来回切换。

Why or why not? And he says, I got so fascinated by this problem. I had to learn fractions to solve the problem I had. And I got fascinated by ideas like asymptotes and finite and infinite. And he talks about how he's moving back and forth between being fascinated by this big idea, and having to learn the calculations and the mathematical concepts to be able to satisfy his curiosity about that big idea.

就在他——我们以为——像跷跷板一样把大脑来回倾斜，从“因为我关心无限这种大理念，所以我要关注并学习分数”，多么惊人的想法，渐近线就是你离某物越来越近却永远触不到——就在他这样做时，他激活了我们认为正是注意力跷跷板支点的那些脑区，也就是你内脏与自身的感觉区域。我们认为，通过在以自我为动因的方式中，在技能操作与大理念思考之间来回移动，又因为关心大理念而再次投入计算，其副作用是激活了大脑中那些承载我们主观自我感的区域，它们就是“我是我”的感觉。这个孩子说——这种课程里的许多孩子都说——“它跟我的生活相关了”。

And as he is, we think tilting his brain sort of back and forth from paying attention, learning about fractions, because I care about big ideas like infinity, what an amazing idea and asymptote that you get closer and closer to something, but you never reach it. As he's doing that, he's tickling up, we think the same regions of his brain that are the ones that are the kind of pivot of the attentional seesaw, which are the feeling of your guts and viscera in your own self. And what we think is happening is that by engaging in these agentic ways of moving yourself between doing the skill and thinking about the big idea and then doing the the calculations again because you care about the big idea, what happens is that the after effect is you activate up these regions of the brain that are the seat of our subjective feeling of our own internal self. They're the feeling of being me. And the kid says, and many of the kids in this kind of curriculum say, it got relevant to my life.

它对我的生活很重要。你以前从没通过数学课，你是刚到美国、生活在贫困中的新移民，可无限和分数却跟你的生活相关了。因为相关并不必然指一项技能对你日常必须完成的事情有直接可用性，那固然重要，但那种相关我称之为小r相关。

It mattered to my life. You've never passed a math class before. You're a new immigrant to The United States living in poverty, and infinity got relevant to your life and fractions. Because relevance is not necessarily simply about the direct applicability of a skill to your everyday things you need to accomplish. That's important, but that's relevance with what I would call a little r.

大R相关是指，思考和理解这个宏大有力的理念本身就感觉像“我”。我带着以前没有的理解和分析水平在世界中前行，这种感觉很有力量。当你做到这一点时，数学就与“我是谁”产生了关联。

Relevance with a big r is it feels like me to think about and understand this big powerful idea. I'm moving through the world with a level of understanding and analysis that I didn't have before that feels powerful. And when you do that, the math becomes relevant to who I am.

在激发人们探索与好奇心的核心处，存在一种哲学思维上的转变：少关注你正在教的科目——无论是代数还是公民课——多关注你试图教育的那个“人”的成长。玛丽·海伦把这种概念转变称为哥白尼式的革命。

There is a philosophical shift in thinking that lies at the heart of engaging people in exploration and curiosity. It involves paying less attention to what you are teaching, whether that's algebra or civics, and more attention to the development of the human being you are trying to teach. Mary Helen calls this conceptual shift the equivalent of a Copernican revolution.

所以我们设计课程时把马车放在了马前面。我们太纠结于要把哪些小小的知识块塞进车里，却忘了思考拉车的那匹马是谁？那匹马需要什么？我认为这是我们当今教育体系设计的根本问题。

So he set the cart before the horse in the way we design our curricula right now. We're thinking too much about what little learning nuggets get shoved in the cart, and we forget to think about who's the horse pulling that cart? What does that horse need? And that's I think the fundamental problem with the way we've designed our education system today.

接下来即将播出。您正在收听《隐藏的大脑》。我是尚卡尔·维丹塔。这里是《隐藏的大脑》。我是尚卡尔·维丹塔。

That's coming up next. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨上学时曾深感脱节。当她成为教育研究者并自己为人父母后，命运兜了一圈。她给我讲了一个关于她儿子的故事，故事分两个章节：二年级和三年级。

Mary Helen Immordino Yang found herself deeply disengaged when she was in school. After she became an education researcher and a parent herself, the wheel came full circle. She told me a story about her own son. The story comes in two chapters, second grade and third grade.

二年级时，他对学校非常沮丧，因为他终于向我坦白：学校里学的东西都不是他感兴趣的。我说，那你感兴趣的是什么？他说，飞机以及它们是怎么飞的。我说，好，泰德，你应该这样做。

In second grade, he was so disheartened with school because he finally expressed to me that they don't study the things in school that he was interested in. And I said, well, what are you interested in? He said, well, airplanes and how they work. I said, okay. Here's what you should do, Ted.

你写封信给老师，写一份提案，说：能不能让我研究飞机，其他孩子也可以研究他们感兴趣的东西，你再具体说明怎么操作。于是他给老师们写了一整份提案，大意是：如果每个孩子都有机会做一个额外项目，自己调查、探索，事先得到老师批准主题和一些指导，会怎么样？

You write a letter to your teacher and you explain and write a proposal in which you say, how about, right? Like I was able to study airplanes and other kids might be able to study other things that they're interested in and you work out how this will happen. Right? And so he wrote a whole proposal to his teachers that basically said, how about if every kid had the chance and the option to engage in an extra project where they could investigate on their own and explore it? They could get approval first for the topic and some guidance from their teacher.

然后他们就可以去钻研自己感兴趣的内容，准备好了再回来向全班汇报。老师回答：太棒了，欢迎去做。他便开始研究机翼及其空气动力特性，和我丈夫——他的爸爸，一位航天工程师——一起学。回来后他做了一场精彩的展示，父子俩一起设计，向全班讲解机翼如何产生升力等等。

And then they could go off and study something they're interested in. And when they're ready, they could come back and they could report on that to the class. And so his teacher said, fantastic, you're welcome to do that. So he went off and began studying about airplane wings and their aerodynamic properties and all these things with my husband, his father, right, who is an aerospace engineer. And he came back and did this amazing presentation, that my husband had helped him design and they did together where they taught the class about how airplane wings work and the ways that lift operates and all these kinds of things.

他玩得很开心。第二年，他的老师人很好，但她没明白学校的目的是让孩子与思想深度互动。她把师生看成学习过程的搭档：她提供信息，孩子的任务是顺从地反馈。只要按计划完成，就是好学生。泰德对这种方式深感沮丧。

And he had an amazing time. The following year, he had a teacher who was very good, but she didn't understand that the purpose of school was to engage kids deeply with ideas. She thought of the kids and her as partners and the learning process that she was giving them the information and their job was to, you know, sort of compliantly give back. And when that happened well, and according to plan, that's the definition of a good student. And Ted was deeply disheartened by this approach.

他始终无法释怀的是教室里那张行为表——别的班都没有：最上面绿色表示“表现好”，中间黄色表示“快出问题了”，红色表示“行为不当”，孩子们的小夹子上下移动。他最后实在受不了，写信说：每天到学校，我都觉得是新的一天，我想学新的、激动人心的东西。

And it came out in his real dislike and failure to move on from thinking about this behavior chart that she had in the class, which was not in any of his other classes in the school, where she had kind of green on the top, you're doing what you're supposed to do, yellow in the middle, like you're getting in hot water and red meaning like, you know, you're behaving badly, right? And kids' little clips were moving up and down on this. And he finally was so upset about and she didn't understand how if he was always on green, it was a problem. And what he wrote to her in a letter finally was that it's like when I get to school every day, he says, I think it's a new day. And I get there to try to learn something new and exciting.

结果我看到的是……那张不良行为表。这个事实让我非常不舒服。他继续解释：就好像老师在激我去做坏事。他真正想说的是：我以为学校是关于思想和学习的，而你告诉我它是关于服从和行为的。

And instead I see the dot, dot, dot bad behavior chart. Right? And he says, this fact makes me very uncomfortable. And he goes on to explain how it's as if the teacher is trying to dare me to do something bad. It's like what he's really saying is, I thought school was about ideas and learning, and you're telling me it's about compliance and behavior.

玛丽·海伦和她的同事们发现，最优秀的教师会运用我们之前讨论过的那种超越性思维。无论他们教的是化学、公民学、历史还是数学，他们都在不断自问：我怎样才能帮助学生看到我正在教授的这些事实背后的大概念？玛丽·海伦举了她在一项研究中跟踪的两位老师的例子。两位都很有才华，但其中一位专注于娴熟地传递信息，而另一位则把教学大纲作为激发超越性思维的跳板，专注于学生大脑的成长。

What Mary Helen and her colleagues have found is that the best teachers engage the kind of transcendent thinking that we discussed earlier. Regardless of whether they are teaching chemistry or civics, history or math, they are constantly asking themselves, How can I help my students see the big ideas behind the facts I am teaching? Mary Helen cites the example of two teachers she tracked during one of her studies. Both are gifted, but one of them is focused on skillfully transmitting information and the other is focused on growing the brains of students using the syllabus as a launch pad for transcendent thinking.

我们遇到一位老师，他邀请我们观摩他为高中公民课设计的期末复习课。那是在寒假前。他在背景里播放着节日歌单。他设计了一个游戏，把多选题写在黑板上，孩子们分组拿着小白板，必须写下他们认为的答案。而且有时间限制。

We had one teacher who invited us to see the class that he had designed as a review for his civics class, high school civics class, the review before the final exam. It was before the winter holiday. He had a holiday playlist playing of music in the background. He had made a game where he put up on the board questions with multiple choice and kids were in teams with whiteboards and they had to write down what they thought their answer was. And it was timed.

他还拿着光剑跳舞逗他们开心，让他们保持活跃。孩子们都在说，你觉得是什么？答案是什么？我觉得是A，我觉得是B。然后他会说，大家把白板举起来，答案是B，给你加分。

And he was dancing with a lightsaber to entertain them and keep them moving. And the kids were all saying, what do think it is? What's the answer? Think it's A, I think it's B. And then he would say, everybody put their whiteboards up and like the answer is B and you and give me the points.

他们会在黑板上记分，对吧？与之对比的是另一位教代数二的老师。她所做的，是在教室里向孩子们解释，指数函数、二次方程的运作方式，能让你计算所谓的指数增长。当孩子们学数学时，她把他们指派给附近的家庭做理财规划师。整个学期里，他们与这些家庭合作，获取这些家庭希望买房、为孩子教育存钱等信息，包括收入、支出。

And they would put the points on the board, right? Contrast that with a teacher who was teaching algebra two And what she had done around her class was explained to kids that the ways that exponential functions work, ways that quadratic equations work, they allow you to calculate something called exponential growth. And what she did was as the kids were learning the math, she then assigned them to families from the neighborhood as financial planners. So they worked and wrestled with those families across the semester to get financial information about those families hopes to buy a home to pay for their kids education, those kinds of things, their income, their expenses. And the kids use their algebra two skills to calculate the cost of owning a home, the amount they should be saving to be able to pay for their child's education someday.

孩子们用代数二的技能计算买房成本、将来为孩子教育应存多少钱。他们与真实家庭合作，并为其提供理财规划资源。当孩子们投入这项数学任务时，他们深切地体会到数学的意义。这让他们成为社区中有用的一员，成为能为社区家庭提供专业资源的专家。

And they worked with real families and presented them with financial planning resources. As those kids engaged in that math, they were so deeply connected to the reason why that math matters. It empowered them to be useful members of their community, to be experts who were resources to the families in their community.

当然，此时复利公式只是手段，而目的是：我如何帮助这个家庭确保他们为未来做好稳妥规划？

And of course, at this point, the formulas for compound interest are only a means to the end. And the end is, how do I help this other family make sure that they are planning securely for the future?

是的，没错。同时，我也真正深入地投入到数学学习中。我经常与老师、家长和学生交流，常见的情况是，当老师了解到这些时，他们首先看到那位拿白板、做公民游戏的人，会觉得，哦，看那些孩子多投入。

Yes. That's right. And at the same time, I'm actually really deeply invested in learning my math. What often happens, I spend a lot of time talking to teachers and parents and kids. What often happens is that when teachers learn about this, they say, they first see the person with the whiteboard and the civics game and he thinks, Oh, look at those kids are super engaged.

那些平时不怎么投入的孩子也都在回答问题，他们觉得那很棒。然后你开始给他们看其他老师的例子，比如那位代数二老师，孩子们平静、深思、自信，表现得很专业。他们在为家庭提供理财建议，做数学时的那种气质。老师们立刻振奋起来，说，哦，我其实知道。

Those aren't the kind of kids who normally would be engaged in this. They're all answering the questions and stuff and they think that's great. And then you start to show them other examples of teachers like the algebra two teacher or others where the kids are calm, they're thoughtful, and they're assured and they act professional. They are advising a family on their financial planning and the demeanor they bring to their math. All of a sudden the teachers perk up and say, Oh, I guess I knew that.

当然，我一直想那样做，但我不知道怎么做。我注意到孩子们不投入，但我以为不投入的对立面是娱乐，是大家举手喊，哦，点我，这太好玩了，我爱学校，这也不错。

Of course, I've always wanted to do that, but I didn't know how. I knew I was noticing disengagement in my kids, but I thought that the opposite of disengagement was entertainment. And everybody putting their hand up and saying, Oh, call on me. This is fun. I love school, which is great.

这并不糟糕，但还不够。深度投入看起来是平静的、深思的、有主动性的，看起来像是孩子们真正对他们所学的内容感兴趣，他们明白为什么学，并深深投入其中。

That's not terrible. But it's not enough. Deep engagement, it looks calm, it looks thoughtful, it looks agentic, it looks like kids are actually interested in what they're studying. They understand why they're doing it and they're deeply invested in what they're doing.

我的意思是，在某些方面，我觉得我听到你说的是，这位代数二老师实际上并不是在教代数二，而是在以一种人的成长形式来教学。

I mean, in some ways, I think what I hear you saying is that this Algebra two teacher is actually not so much teaching Algebra two as much as a form of human development.

嗯，她是把代数二当作实现人的成长的手段来教，对吧？在教育中，我们犯了一个错误，认为学校的结果就是学习，对吧？学习成果是我们衡量学校是否成功的方式。但我认为学习成果这个说法本身就是错误的，它是一个干扰项。

Well, she's teaching algebra two as a means to human development, right? In education, we've made the mistake of thinking that the outcome of school is learning, right? Learning outcomes are how we measure whether school was successful. But I would argue that learning outcomes are a misnomer. They're a red herring.

这些确实是极其重要的目标。你在学校必须学到东西。但那不是学校的最终目的。那只是达到最终目的的手段。最终目的、最终结果是人的成长。

Those are incredibly important things to achieve. You must learn things in school. But that's not the ultimate purpose of school. That's the means to the ultimate purpose. The ultimate purpose, the outcome is human development.

所以我们必须问自己，学会了这些能为孩子们接下来的发展带来什么？来到这里、经历这次学习机会，如何在他们继续成长的过程中改变他们的发展状态？它如何改变他们接触信息的倾向、他们处理该领域复杂信息的性情？它有没有改变他们科学理解和思考的方式，改变他们在世界中自我定位的身份？这才是真正以发展为导向、有意义的教育。

So we have to ask ourselves, what does having learned this enable in the kids as they move forward? How does having been here and experienced this learning opportunity change who they are developmentally moving forward? How does it change their proclivities to engage with information, their dispositions to think about complex information in this field? Has it changed the way they understand and think scientifically, who they position themselves to be when they move through the world. And that is meaningful developmentally oriented education.

学习很重要，至关重要，但它不是终点，而是手段。终点是成长，而我们忽视了这一点。

The learning is important. It's critical, but it is not the endpoint. It's the means. The endpoint is the development, and we've neglected that.

我在想，玛丽·海伦，这是否意味着，在某种程度上，我们通常期望高中生或大学生学习的范围和数量可能太多了。如果你想实现真正的深度参与，真的希望大家深入而不是广博，可能就必须比我们今天所涵盖的内容更少。

I'm wondering if one implication of this, Mary Helen, is that in some ways, the range and volume of things that we typically expect students to learn in high school or college might be too much. That in some ways if you want to get really deep engagement and really want people to go deep rather than broad, might actually have to cover less ground than we're covering today.

是的，我认为这在一定程度上是对的。但我也觉得，一旦孩子们真正发展出学习的性情，一旦他们培养起好奇心和一种面对你提供的学术机会的方式，真正把主动权放在他们自己而不是成年人手里，孩子们就能完成惊人的事情。但事实是，当我们过度限制并让他们学习一大堆东西，却没有机会真正深入时，所有的学习都会变得肤浅，最终也无法真正留在他们心里。真正关键的是让年轻人发展出深度投入学习的性情，以及在过程中具备自我觉察，知道真正理解一件事是什么感觉，成为某个领域的小专家是什么感觉。

Yeah, I think that's partly true. But I also think that once kids develop a real disposition to learn, once they develop a curiosity and a way of approaching the academic opportunities you provide for them that really puts the agency in their pocket rather than in the adults. What happens is kids can accomplish super things. But what's true is that when we overly constrain and make them learn a broad range of things without the opportunities to really go deep, what happens is that all of the learning becomes superficial and it ends up not sticking with them anyway. What's really key for young people to develop is the disposition to deeply engage with learning and the self awareness in the learning process to know what it feels like to really understand something, what it feels like to become an expert.

我解释这一点的一种方式是，当我们看小孩子时，很多人自己当过或有过一个对恐龙超级着迷的四岁孩子，对吧？他们开始记住所有恐龙的名字、它们吃什么、有什么样的牙齿等等。没有人会停下来想，哦，我家四岁孩子真的要走上成为古生物学家的轨道了。他们真正在做什么？他们在培养自己学习的倾向。

One way I explain this is when we look at little kids, lots of us have been or had four year olds who got super fascinated with dinosaurs, right? They started memorizing all the names of the dinosaurs and what they ate and what kind of teeth they had and all this kind of stuff. And no one stops and says, Oh, my four year old is really on track to becoming a paleontologist. Is it that they're doing? They're developing their proclivity for learning.

他们在体验一点点专家的感觉。他们可能甚至在某件事上比父母知道的还多。那有多让人有力量？他们还会主动去寻找关于某些不在眼前、必须去博物馆或查书才能学到的新知识。这就是那个学习过程的发展性质。

They're experiencing a little bit of expertise. They may probably even know more about something than their parent does. How empowering is that? And they're searching out new learning about something that isn't in their immediate here and now that they have to go to museums or books to learn about. And that's the developmental nature of that learning process.

但当我们的孩子长到十几岁时，我们不知怎么就觉得学习主要是像松鼠一样往脑子里塞小坚果，对吧？看你能往里面塞多少小东西？我们忘了，就像那些四岁孩子一样，内容很重要，你需要广博的内容，以及思考事物的方式。

But when our kids get to be teenagers, we somehow think that the learning is mainly about stashing little nuts in their head like a squirrel, right? Where it's about how many little things can you shove in there? And we forget that the point is just like with those four year olds, the content is important. You need a breadth of content, right? And ways of thinking about things.

但真正重要的是，你要培养一种倾向，去深度接触专业知识、思想、证据，以及分析和理解事物的深思熟虑的方法。然而，在主流中学教育中，我们往往不这样做。我们用内容替代了学习思考的发展机会。

But what's really important is that you learn proclivities for deeply engaging with expertise, with ideas, with evidence, with thoughtful ways of analyzing and understanding things. But we often in mainstream secondary education do not do this. We substitute content for developmental opportunities to learn to think.

我在想，人们会不会反驳你说，玛丽·海伦，你描述的东西非常理想化，在课堂和学校如果能做到当然很棒。但我们面临的挑战其实更基础。你知道，学生不来上课，我们有出勤问题，我们有纪律问题。

I'm wondering whether people give you pushback and say, you know, Mary Helen, what you're describing is very idealistic and would be wonderful to do in classrooms and schools. But the challenges that we are facing are at a much more basic level. You know, students are not showing up to class. We have attendance problems. We have discipline problems.

玛丽·海伦，你的建议真的实用吗？

Is your recommendation, Mary Helen, something that is actually practical?

是啊，那我告诉你，现实世界对很多孩子来说并不怎么样，对吧？所以我们不断加倍强调从基础开始，一步步往上爬，结果孩子们却缺席了，不是吗？

Yeah. Well, I got news. Like, the wide real world isn't working very well for a lot of kids. Right? And so we keep doubling down on starting with the basics and working our way up and the kids are absent, right?

无论是心理上还是身体上，天哪，对吧？那是因为我们教育系统的设计与青少年的发展需求不匹配。人类天生就带着好奇心、适应力和参与度而来。当我们把他们的参与度和好奇心压缩成必须通过的小积木，才能进入有趣的内容时，你就已经失去了他们。如果我们反过来，用宏大的想法、有力的项目、真正改变社区的机会邀请孩子们回到学校，从那里出发，再倒推回工具性技能——历史、写作、采访、演讲，所有能支撑他们完成这些项目的技能。

Either mentally or heaven forbid physically, right? That's because the design of our education system does not align with the developmental needs of young people. Human beings show up naturally with curiosity, with adaptability, with engagement. And when we lower their engagement and curiosity to tiny little building block things that you have to pass through those bottlenecks before you can get to anything interesting, you have lost them. What if we turned it around and we invite kids back to school with big ideas, with powerful projects, with opportunities to actually make change in their community, start there and work backwards to the instrumental skills, the history, the writing, the interviewing, the speaking, all of the skills that would play into their ability to do those projects.

我们必须把大想法放在首位。这样你才能吸引孩子，让他们觉得需要学校。然后你说，好吧，既然你需要分数，那个对芝诺悖论兴奋的孩子，先回来，我教你。

We have to put the big idea first. So you engage kids and give them the power to need school. And then you say, okay, you need to know fractions kid who's excited about Zeno's paradox. Step back, come over here, I'm going to teach it to you. Right?

现在你需要它了，对吧？你在研究密歇根州弗林特市水里的铅，让我教你一些化学，这对你深入探究那个你真正投入的问题会非常有用，对吧？所以我们在课程设计上把马车放在了马前面。

Now you need to know it, right? You're studying about lead in the water in Flint, Michigan. Let me teach you some chemistry. It's going to be very useful to you trying to figure out that thing you're really deeply engaged in, right? So we set the cart before the horse in the way we design our curricula right now.

我们太关注要把哪些小学习块塞进马车，却忘了想谁在拉那辆车？那匹马需要什么？我认为这就是我们当今教育系统设计的根本问题，它搞反了。

We're thinking too much about what little learning nuggets get shoved in the cart. And we forget to think about who's the horse pulling that cart? What does that horse need? That's, I think, the fundamental problem with the way we've designed our education system today. It's backwards.

积木式的技能应该跟随那些宏大而迷人的想法和好奇心。然后孩子们才需要这些积木技能，他们会回来说，老师，我想写一篇关于改革寄养制度的评论，因为我亲身经历过，我有些想法。你能再提醒我一句好的主题句到底起什么作用吗？因为我需要别人理解我想说的话，这很重要。

The building block skills follow the big, intriguing ideas and the curiosities. And then the kids need the building blocks skills and they come back and say, please, teacher, I wanna write a commentary about reforming the foster care system because I've lived through it and I've got some ideas. Can you remind me what does a good topic sentence really accomplish again? Because I need people to understand what I'm trying to say. It's important.

有没有可能有些东西你必须学，却实在无法与更大的概念或更抽象的概念挂钩，你只能老老实实地做那些苦工，学习那些螺母和螺栓，那些基础动作？

Isn't it possible that there are some things that you have to learn that in fact cannot be connected to bigger concepts or more abstract concepts that you actually just have to do the grunt work, if you will, of learning the nuts and bolts, the blocking and tackling?

基础操作中的细节是真实存在的，需要毅力、坚持和深度的努力，对吧？但它们都服务于一个宏大的理念。没有任何一个细节或苦差事是没有学习理由的。当孩子们问‘我为什么要学这个？’的时候——

The nuts and bolts in the blocking and tackling are absolutely real, and they take grit and persistence and deep effort. Right? But they follow a big idea. There is no nut and bolt and grunt work that doesn't have some reason for knowing it. When kids are asking, why do I need to do this?

“我为什么要知道这个？”——这本身就说明课程设计失败了。在开始学之前，教室里的每个人都应该清楚为什么要学。他们需要知道，需要感受到这种需求。

Why do I need to know this? That represents a failing of the design of the curriculum. It should be very clear to everybody in that room why you need to know this before you start learning it. They need to know it. They need to feel the need.

然后，是的，你必须努力，必须有自律，必须有控制力，必须有韧性。所有这些品质都是你在内心培养出来的。但如果我们试图培养这些技能，而孩子们却看不到他们必须做这些事的大理由，那我们就是在打一场 uphill battle。

And then yes, you have to work hard, you have to have self discipline, you have to have control, you have to have stick to itiveness. And all those things are things you develop within yourself. But we're fighting an uphill battle by trying to develop those skills when there actually is no big reason why you should have to do these things that the kids are privy to.

你还提到有效教师会做的一件事：他们以开放、实验性的方式让年轻人接触多元视角。你在纽约一所学校旁听时看到了这一幕。玛丽·海伦，说说你看到了什么、听到了什么。

You also talk about something that effective teachers do, which is they expose young people to diverse perspectives in a way that is open minded and experimental. And you saw this happening in a class you observed at a school in New York. Talk about what you saw and heard, Mary Helen.

我认为教师可以设计课程，让年轻人进入该学科领域全新的思维世界。我在纽约一所学校看到的一堂课做得非常巧妙：这位十年级历史老师把课程命名为“民主是一场争论”。他从个人需求与群体需求之间持续张力的视角来讲授美国历史。整门课都围绕这一张力展开。通过这一视角，老师巧妙地引导孩子们在了解事件的时间、地点及其影响时，主动思考——

I think teachers can design their curricula in such a way that they invite young people into a new world of thinking in that disciplinary domain. So in one particular class I saw, which I thought was so skillfully done, this tenth grade history teacher in a school in New York called the class Democracy is an argument. And he taught American history from the perspective of the tension that's constantly present between the needs of individuals and the needs of groups. And they examined all of American history from this tension. And by looking from this perspective, what that teacher has brilliantly done is inherently set up kids to think about as they learn what happened and when and where and the implications of that.

他们被引导去寻找更深层的隐藏理念：各种行动者背后的价值观和信念存在哪些张力？他们如何自我平衡？这些张力又如何导致历史事件的展开？这帮助孩子们深入思考历史，并不可避免地看到适用于当下世界的历史教训。

They're set up to look for a bigger hidden idea, which is what are the tensions behind the values and the beliefs of the various actors and how do they balance themselves? And how does the tension between those lead to the unfolding of historical events? It helped the kids to think deeply about the history and also to inevitably see the lessons from history that apply in our current world now.

稍后回来，翻转课堂剧本。您正在收听《隐藏的大脑》。我是尚卡·维丹塔姆。这里是《隐藏的大脑》。我是尚卡·维丹塔姆。

When we come back, flipping the classroom script. You are listening to Hidden Brain. I am Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨是南加州大学的学者。她认为我们的教育越来越聚焦于信息传递。尤其在人工智能时代，这看起来很快就会变得多余。超级计算机读过的文件、书籍、科学论文比任何人都多。未来几年，哪些技能将不可或缺、无法替代？

Mary Helen Immordino Yang is a scholar at the University of Southern California. She feels that a good part of our education system is increasingly focused on the transmission of information. Especially in the age of AI, this would seem like a prescription to become redundant very quickly. Supercomputers have read more documents, more books, more scientific papers than any human. What are the skills that will prove indispensable and irreplaceable in the years to come?

能够退后一步看到联系，能够看出某事在一个情境下成立却在另一情境下失效，能够将知识与技能同判断和伦理整合——所有这些正是玛丽·海伦所说的“超越性思维”。我问她如何把这些理念运用到自己的教学中。

The ability to step back and see connections, to see how something that is true in one context might fail in another, to integrate knowledge and skills with judgment and ethics. All of this, of course, is what Mary Helen is talking about when she talks about transcendent thinking. I asked her how she has brought these ideas to bear in her own teaching.

是啊。在我自己的教学里，现阶段我教的是家长，也教老师。不过我也给研究生上课，对吧？

Yeah. In my own teaching, I mean, this point in my life, I teach parents. I teach teachers. But I I teach classes for graduate students. Right?

我所做的是真正尝试引导人们去构建自己的意义。呈现数据、讲述故事，就像一段旅程。我把课程视为一段旅程——跟我一起踏上一段旅程，用一种思考方式来探究这些事情。

What I do is I really try to engage people in their own meaning making. Put up the data, the story. It's like a journey. I think of the curriculum as a journey. Come with me on a journey through a way of thinking about these things.

我会向你介绍大量新的证据、故事和材料。然后我们一起思考：这现在意味着什么？把它应用到你们自己的实践中，应用到你们对这些概念的理解中。有一位著名的神经科学家丹·沙克特，几十年前做了一个非常有趣的实验，他问人们一个简单的问题：你的客厅有几扇窗？大多数人都能回答这个问题。

I'm going to introduce you to a whole bunch of new evidence, stories and stuff. And then we're going to think together about, okay, what does this mean now? Applying it back to your own practice, to your own understanding of the concepts. So there's a famous neuroscientist, Dan Schachter, who did a very, interesting experiment, decades ago now where he asked people a simple question, how many windows are in your living room? And the majority of people answer that question.

你问他们是怎么答出来的，大多数人会说：除非我上周刚买了窗帘，否则我根本不知道答案。但我闭上眼睛，想象自己走进客厅，转了一圈数出来的。这就是深层、有意义、复杂记忆真正运作的方式——正是我们希望学生在学校里完成的那种记忆。

And you say, how did you answer that question? The majority of people answer that question by recounting that I had no idea the answer, unless I just happened to have bought drapes last week. Right. But what I did was I closed my eyes, imagined myself in my living room and walked around and counted. And that's the way memory actually works when it's deep, meaningful, complex memory for the kinds of things we really want kids to accomplish in school.

你要在那个学科空间里“生活”得足够丰富，才能重新置身其中，在学科框架里“转一圈数窗户”，也就是推导出你从未死记硬背过的信息。我们在教育中常常忘记，大脑核心的记忆系统——语义记忆（事实信息）和程序记忆（如何做事）——是靠所谓的自传体记忆来组织的；它像衣帽架，把其他东西都挂上去。

You live in the living room of that disciplinary space so experientially richly that you then can resituate yourself in that disciplinary frame and walk around and count windows, so to speak. You can derive information that you never had memorized before. We forget in education that the core memory system of the brain that holds together the memories we so care about, which are semantic memories, memories for facts and information, procedural memories, memories for how to do stuff. Those two kinds of memories are organized in the brain and mind by what you would call autobiographical memory. It's like the hat stand of memory that all the other stuff gets hung on.

正是“曾在这里思考过这些事情”的体验，即个人主观的学习经历，成为信息连接的框架。我教学时，会尝试带大家跟我一起踏上旅程，而且我不隐瞒这一点。我告诉他们：我会介绍有趣的案例、发现、信息片段，以及体现我们试图学习理念的人物视频。你从中看到了什么？

It's the experience of having been here thinking about these things, the personal subjective lived experience of engaging with this opportunity to learn that becomes the frame on which the information gets connected. When I teach, I try to bring people on a journey with me. And I don't make this a secret. I tell them this is what I'm doing. I'm gonna introduce you to interesting case studies, interesting findings, interesting pieces of information, interesting videos of people that are embodying ideas that I want us to try to learn What do you see in this?

我把学生确立为有能力、有好奇心的学习者。他们像科学家一样出现在现场，试图弄清楚：这里的核心思想是什么？它如何与我已知的事物对应？它有什么意义？这才是课程的入口，而不是“让我先给你大脑的基本信息，我们先背所有部件，再谈功能，下周再讲重要机制”。

And I established the students as agentic, curious learners. They are the people who show up in the space like scientists trying to figure out what's the idea here, and how does it square with the things I've known before, and what sense does it make? And that's the entry point into the curriculum rather than let me give you the basic information about the brain. We're gonna start with all the parts, and then we'll talk about what they do. And then next week, we'll get into the important stuff about how it works.

我们先看录像：孩子、老师、真实学习场景，看发生了什么，然后倒推：大脑和身体如何促成这些行为？在不同情境下它们为何表现不同？这对我们如何支持不同情境下的学习意味着什么？

Let's just look at videotapes of people, kids, teachers, right? People learning, people out in the world together and watch what's happening. And then think backwards learning about, well, how is the brain and the body enabling those things to happen? And how are they looking different in these different contexts and why? And what does this mean for how we might support learning in these different contexts?

所以我们先以例子激发兴趣，再倒过来，在他们看过例子后，帮助他们思考：现在让我告诉你背后的一些事实。这如何改变你分析和理解可学内容的能力？

So we turn it backwards around and intrigue people with the examples first, and then work backward once they have seen the example to help them think about, Okay, let me tell you some of the facts about what's going on behind here now. How does that change your ability to analyze and understand what you could learn from this?

听起来几乎不言自明，但你真正说的是，教育其实不在于你教给学生的那些东西，而在于学生本身。如果学生是教育的核心，如果焦点放在学生身上——他们热爱什么、他们对自己的理解、他们在世界中的位置——那么所有学习、事实和信息几乎会随之而来，而不是从事实和学习出发。

I mean, it sounds almost self evident when you put it this way, but really what you're saying is that education is actually not about the things that you're teaching students. It's actually about the students themselves. If the students are at the heart of education, if the focus is on students, what they come to love, their own understanding of themselves, their place in the world, then all the learning and the facts and the information almost come along with that rather than starting with the facts and the learning.

是的。这是我们一直在撰写并倡导的观点。我和几位同事在网上发表了一篇论文，叫《编织多彩之布》，就讨论这一理念。我们主张需要像哥白尼式转向那样重新聚焦教育——改变我们对指标和过程的视角。

Yeah. This is an idea that we've been writing about and advocating for for some time. And I have a paper with several colleagues that's available on the internet called Weaving a Colorful Cloth, which is about this notion. And what we're arguing is that we need to re center education like a Copernican shift. We're changing the perspective on the metrics and the processes that we have.

所以，一直以来，我们所做的基本上就是站在地球上，把地球当作中心，看着孩子们和学习成果从眼前掠过。当它们走向错误的方向、慢下来或出问题时，我们真的不知道该怎么办，对吧？我们没法理解。但当我们转换视角，意识到另一种同样正确却更有用的理解方式：那个正在思考和学习的人的主观体验，才是太阳系的中心，而我们其他人和学习成果都围着它转、观察它。突然之间，当我们抬头看天时，许多悖论就消失了，因为从这一新视角看，它们之所以朝不符合我们原先预期的方向移动，现在完全说得通了，对吧？

So, right now, for so long, what we've done is we're basically standing on the earth, making the earth the center and watching the kids and the learning outcomes go by. And when they go in the wrong direction or they slow down or things happen, we don't really know what to do about it, right? We can't make sense of that. But when we reframe so that we realize that, oh, another way to understand this, which is equally correct, but more useful, is that the experience of the person doing the thinking and learning their subjective experiences, the center of the solar system, and the rest of us in our learning outcomes are spinning around and watching that. All of a sudden, the paradox is when we look up into the sky, many of them fall away because it now makes sense from this new perspective why they're moving in a direction that didn't conform to our previous expectations, right?

因此，当我们把教育事业的重心重新放在思考的主观体验上——“在这里思考对我来说是什么感觉？”“在这里思考如何改变我参与学习过程的方式？”——当我们把这一点作为事业的核心时，它就变得可行动了。这能帮我们理解学习成果为何如此，以及如果我们不满意，该如何改变。在我们的教育体系中，我们过分地把学习成果当作系统运作的衡量标准。

And so when we refocus the educational enterprise on the subjective experience of thinking, what does it feel like to me to think here? How does thinking here change the way in which I engage with the process of learning? When we focus on that as the core of the enterprise, that's actionable. That helps us to make sense of why the learning outcomes are as they are, and how we might change them if we're not happy with them. In our education systems, we focus way too much on the learning outcome as the metric of the functioning of the system.

问题在于，这并没有告诉你需要知道的信息。孩子们没达到你想要的成就线时，我们不知道该怎么做。我们需要同步做的是回头真正分析孩子们如何与材料一起思考。“在这里思考意味着什么？”“在这里思考是什么感觉？”

And the problem with that is it doesn't tell you what you need to know. What kids don't meet the achievement marks you want, we don't know what to do about that. What we need to do in tandem is go back and really analyze how our kids thinking with the material. What does it mean to think here? What does it feel like to think here?

“当我解决问题时，我的过程是什么？”当我们开始揭开这些，它就变得可行动了。这正是真正优秀的老师所专注的。

What is my process when I'm tackling a problem? And as we start to uncover that, that's actionable. And that's what really skilled teachers hone in on.

我了解到你女儿在丹麦上学时的教育体验非常不同。给我讲讲发生了什么。

I understand that your own daughter had a very different experience of education when she attended a school in Denmark. Tell me the story of what happened.

是的。我女儿十年级时，她一直在公立学校，成绩很好。但她也感到沮丧，因为她觉得这所高绩效公立学校非常严格的学术课程限制了她冒智力风险的能力。我记得她跟我抱怨过AP生物课：考试题她完全知道标准答案该写什么，但她想知道为什么另一个解释就不行。

Yeah. So when our own daughter was in tenth grade, she, you know, she had been in public school. She was doing very well. But she was also frustrated by the fact that she felt like her very rigorous academic curriculum in this high performing public school limited her ability to take intellectual risks. So I remember her expressing to me her frustration in AP biology when, you know, there was a question and she knew perfectly well what the answer was that she was supposed to answer on this AP biology test, but she wondered why it wasn't another explanation.

她想写上那个答案，好得到反馈，看看为什么那个解释也不能成立。但她知道那不是出题人要的，而且她知道这门课必须拿A，否则就上不了大学，所以她只能不问。她对此很愤怒。

And she wanted to put that so she could get feedback on why that couldn't be true also. But she knew that wasn't what they were looking for. And she knew you have to get an A on this class or you're not going to get to go to college. So she had to not ask, right? And she was angry about that.

所以我们在寻找机会，让她在另一种学校短暂地成长。丹麦有一种叫“课外学校”的学校。那是一种一年期的民间学校形式，让来自全国、志趣相投的年轻人聚在一起。来自丹麦各地、不同背景但都喜欢管弦乐的孩子会去其中一所学校，体育、艺术也一样，孩子们找到这类社区学校，自愿在义务教育（九年级结束，比我们的九年级稍大）之后多读一年。

So we were looking for an opportunity for her to really grow herself in a different kind of school just for a bit. In Denmark, they have schools called after school school. And what they are is a one year opportunity in a kind of a folk school format to come together with youth from across the country who share interests with you. So kids from all walks of life from across Denmark who share an interest in orchestra music, go to one of these schools, in sports, in arts, right? These kids sort of find one of these community schools and they opt into an extra year of school in between their required school, which ends in ninth grade, which is a little older than our ninth grade.

然后再决定成人轨迹：继续读书、旅行还是工作？这些孩子们聚在一起，我女儿去的那所叫“社会研究”，目的是把你自己定位为丹麦公民，放在历史语境中，用数学、科学、户外活动、社区服务、历史分析等，来思考“我们想要怎样的国家”。

And then making a choice about what kind of adult trajectory they're gonna take. Are they going to go on to more education or travel or do work or what? And so these kids all come together and the school that my daughter attended, she was the only foreign student. And so the school was about what they called social studies. It was about situating yourself as a Danish citizen in this historical context and using math, science, outdoor activities, service to the community, historical analysis, all these things to try to really think about what do we want for our nation.

我女儿去的那一年，是特朗普第一次当选总统之后，欧洲人正担心叙利亚难民危机。大量难民因可怕局势涌入欧洲大陆，他们努力吸收，但自身也面临身份危机：如何接纳这些“不跟我们一样种菜、吃饭”的新公民，对吧？

My daughter attended this school the year after president Trump was elected the first time and people in Europe were concerned about a Syrian refugee crisis. There were people pouring into the continent from terrible refugee situations. They were trying to absorb them in, but they also were having a crisis of identity themselves. How do we manage, with all these new citizens who don't garden and eat like us? Right?

于是学校没有只停留在课堂讲授，而是把孩子们放进这段历史的情境里，接着把140名学生和老师全部赶上大巴，开了十七个小时到波兰克拉科夫，花一周时间研究奥斯维辛以及丹麦人在大屠杀中的角色。然后他们引导孩子思考：如何从历史中学习？面对今天的欧洲难民危机，你们想怎样理解并应对？因为这是你们17岁年轻人必须接手的问题，这是你们的世界。

And and so the school, rather than just teaching about that, they situated the kids in the history of this, and then they put all the kids, 140 kids and the teachers onto buses and drove them seventeen hours to Krakow, Poland, where they spent a week studying Auschwitz and the role of the Danish people in the Holocaust. And they then helped the kids think about learning from that history. How do you want to make sense of and manage the refugee crisis in Europe today? Because it's your issue to manage 17 year olds. This is your world.

你们很快就要接管国家、掌管事务。你们想把自己放在什么位置，才能应对这场危机？这是一次了不起的机会：在成人提供的历史知识和陪伴思考下，让孩子们真正开始直面当下国家、社会乃至世界所面临的重大而棘手的议题。

You're soon going to be taking over the country and running things. How do you want to position yourselves to be able to manage this crisis? And it was an incredible opportunity where they let the kids with support, with historical knowledge, with adults thinking with them, really start to grapple with the real big fraught issues that were facing their country and their society and their world now.

跟你女儿在国内的经历相比，她对这所学校印象如何？她有没有觉得这才是教育本该有的更真实的样子？

What was your daughter's impression of the school compared to what she was used to back home? Did she feel like it was a more authentic experience of what education was supposed to be like?

其实对她来说挺难的。她嘴上说喜欢这所学校，从没抱怨，但身处一个没有作业、没有评分标准、也没人告诉你得几分的环境，她非常不适应。她不好意思地承认，这种开放式学习让她很吃力。

I think it was actually surprisingly difficult for her. She expressed she loved the school. She never said she didn't enjoy herself. But it was extremely difficult for her to be in an environment where there were not assignments and metrics and rubrics and somebody telling her what grade she got. And she was embarrassed to admit, she told me that it was very difficult for her to just work in this open ended way.

她习惯了当“好学生”：老师给你超难的任务，你完成它，对吧？可这里的老师把孩子们请进物理实验室，围绕概念组织课程，然后说：你们想做什么？尽管深挖。

She was so used to being a good student. And what that means is teachers give you really hard stuff and you deliver on it. Right? These teachers were inviting the kids into the physics lab, organizing a curriculum around concepts and then saying, what would you like to do? Dig in.

我们在旁边随时回答问题、提供支持。我不知道——这个物理问题或项目你们做完了吗？还想继续深入吗？

Right? And we're here to answer your questions to support you. I don't know. Are you done with this physics problem and project? Or do you want to work more on it?

你们取得了什么？卡在哪里？学到了什么？下次会怎么做？他们拒绝给出关于“终点”或“成绩”的直接反馈。

What have you accomplished? Where are you stuck? What have you learned? What would you do differently next time? And they refused to give direct feedback about the endpoint, the achievement.

她感到极其困难。学年过半时，她每晚睡前都跟我聊天。有天她说：“妈，我对自己有了个发现，说出来有点尴尬。”我说：“嗯？”

And she found it incredibly difficult. And at one point, about halfway through the year, she would talk to me every night before she went to bed. And she said to me, You know, mom, I've realized something about myself. It's kind of embarrassing to admit. I said, yeah.

她说：“你知道，有些高中生谈恋爱并不是真喜欢对方，只是想要个人一起进派对、一起吃午饭、夸自己笑话好笑、说自己好看。”我说：“是啊。”她接着说：“分数对我就是那样的。我不好意思承认，我用分数来提醒自己‘我很聪明、我有潜力、我很努力’，而不是学会自己判断我是否聪明、有潜力、已努力。”

She said, yeah, you know, kids in high school who have a boyfriend or a girlfriend, not because they really love the person, but because they just, you know, want somebody to walk into the party with and to sit with at lunch and to laugh at their jokes and tell them they look nice. And I said, Yeah. And she said, Well, that's grades for me. I'm ashamed to admit that I use them to remind myself that I'm smart, that I have potential, that I've worked hard. Rather than thinking about how do I decide for myself if I'm smarter, I have potential, I've worked hard.

“我到底为什么做这件事？”她不得不以全新的方式重新思考和投入自己的学习，过程极其艰难，却最终收获巨大。我认为这从根本上改变了她对学校和学习过程的态度。现在她即将开始攻读博士。

Why am I doing this? And she had to really rethink and reengage in a very different way in her own work. And it was extremely difficult, but so fulfilling for her over time. And I think it really fundamentally changed the way she oriented herself towards school and the learning process. She's now about to start her PhD.

你知道吗，我觉得她重新把学校当作一个为自己而学的机会，而不是为了别人设定的指标和成绩目标。她让我明白、也让我大开眼界的是，真正的学术挣扎发生在老师退后一步的时候。当你不是在外人的安排下同时修五门AP课程，没有人告诉你这天交这个、那天交那个，告诉你什么是A什么是C，给你评分标准。相反，老师只是摆出机会，孩子们得自己决定学什么、为什么学、怎么学、什么时候算完成、自己学到了什么、别人在学什么，并就此获得反馈。

You know, I think she really reengaged with the opportunity school provided to learn for her own learning rather than for the metrics and achievement goals that other people set for her. And what she taught me, which was really eye opening, is really difficult. The real struggle academically in education happens when the teachers step back. And you're not taking five APs with somebody else coming in and telling you this is due on this day and this is due on this day and this is what an A is and this is what a C is and here's the rubric. When the teachers instead set out the opportunity and the kids need to decide for themselves what they're studying and why and how and whether they're done and what they've learned and what other people are learning and get feedback on that.

那才是真正艰难的部分。她告诉我，没有分数、没有正式的作业和截止日期，这是她经历过的最吃力的学术学习，却也从根本上改变了她现在对自己在学术世界中角色的理解。

That is where the hard work actually is. And what she told me is that without grades, without these formalized assignments and due dates, it was the hardest academic learning she's ever done. And it was fundamental to the way in which she now understands her own role in the scholarly, in the scholarly world.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨是南加州大学的心理学家和神经科学家，著有《情感、学习与情感神经科学的教育启示》。玛丽·海伦，非常感谢你今天做客《隐藏的大脑》。

Mary Helen Immordino Yang is a psychologist and neuroscientist at the University of Southern California. She is the author of Emotions, Learning, and the Exploring the Educational Implications of Affective Neuroscience. Mary Helen, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

谢谢你的邀请，真的很高兴。

Thank you for having me. It's a true pleasure.

你对玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨的学习观点还有后续问题吗？也许你是一位老师，发现了自己调动学生积极性的方法，或者是一名学生，对理想的学习方式有自己的想法。如果你愿意与《隐藏的大脑》听众分享你的问题或看法，请在手机上录一段语音备忘录，并发送到 ideashiddenbrain.org。两三分钟就够了，邮件主题写“学习”。再次提醒，邮箱是 ideashiddenbrain.org。

Do you have follow-up questions about learning from Mary Helen Immordino Yang? Maybe you're a teacher who has discovered your own techniques for engaging students or a student with thoughts on how you think learning should unfold. If you'd be willing to share your question or comment with the Hidden Brain audience, please record a voice memo on your phone and email it to us at ideashiddenbrain dot org. Two or three minutes is plenty, and use the subject line Learning. That email address again is ideashiddenbrain dot org.

《隐藏的大脑》由 Hidden Brain Media 制作。我们的音频制作团队包括安妮·墨菲·保罗、克里斯滕·王、劳拉·夸勒尔、瑞安·卡茨、奥顿·巴恩斯、安德鲁·查德威克和尼克·伍德伯里。塔拉·博伊尔是我们的执行制片人。我是《隐藏的大脑》执行主编。如果你热爱《隐藏的大脑》和我们探讨的理念，请考虑订阅我们的新闻简报。

Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media. Our audio production team includes Annie Murphy Paul, Kristen Wong, Laura Quarrell, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, Andrew Chadwick, and Nick Woodbury. Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor. If you love Hidden Brain and the ideas we explore on our show, please consider subscribing to our newsletter.

每周我们都会为你带来关于“何以为人”的最新有趣研究。你可以前往 news.hiddenbrain.org 查看并订阅。地址是 NEWS.hiddenbrain.org。我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔姆。

Every week, we'll bring you new and interesting research about what it means to be human. You can check it out and subscribe at news.hiddenbrain.org. That's NEWS. Hiddenbrain.org. I'm Shankar Vedanta.

回头见。

See you soon.