激情与薪水

大家好，我是Shankar。我们将在2025年9月22日发布这期节目，这一天正是《隐藏的大脑》节目开播十周年纪念日。欢迎收听《隐藏的大脑》播客的首期节目。

Hey there. Shankar here. We're dropping this episode on 09/22/2025. That's ten years to the day since we first launched Hidden Brain into the world. Welcome to the first episode of the Hidden Brain podcast.

我是Shankar Vedanta。你们可能知道，自从这档播客开播以来，许多事情都发生了变化。但对我们而言，有一点始终未变——无论周复一周，我们始终热爱为你们制作这档节目。这是我们的使命。

I'm Shankar Vedanta. You may know me as A lot has changed since we started this podcast. But for us, one thing remains steadfast. Week in and week out, we love making this show for you. It's been our calling.

因此今天，我们通过一期关于使命本身的节目来庆祝这个周年纪念日——探讨如何找到使命并改变人生。如果你多年来一直是《隐藏的大脑》听众，欢迎参加我的现场巡演。我将于10月11日到巴尔的摩，10月12日到华盛顿特区，11月22日到洛杉矶。2026年还会增加更多场次。我将分享这档节目十年来七个最重要的洞见。

So today, we mark this anniversary with an episode about just that callings, and how finding one can change our lives. If you've been listening to Hidden Brain for many years, please come to my live tour. I'll be in Baltimore on October 11, in Washington DC on October 12, and in Los Angeles on November 22. More dates are coming in 2026. I'll be sharing seven key insights from the first decade of the show.

更多信息和票务请访问hiddenbrain.org/tour。再次强调，网址是hiddenbrain.org/tour。期待与你们相见。现在请收听今天的节目。这里是《隐藏的大脑》。

For more information and tickets, go to hiddenbrain.org/tour. Again, that's hiddenbrain.org/tour. Hope to see you there. And here's today's show. This is Hidden Brain.

我是Shankar Vedanta。2005年，在加州帕洛阿尔托，一位戴着眼镜、发际线后退的严肃男子站在数千名毕业生面前。他身着深红色兜帽的黑色长袍。他开玩笑说，老实讲，我从未大学毕业，这是我离大学毕业典礼最近的一次。当年史蒂夫·乔布斯在斯坦福大学毕业典礼上的演讲不仅震撼了现场听众——

I'm Shankar Vedanta. In 2005, an intense man with a receding hairline and glasses stood before thousands of young graduates in Palo Alto, California. He wore dark robes with a hood of cardinal red. Truth be told, he joked, I never graduated from college, and this is the closest I've ever gotten to a college graduation. The speech that Steve Jobs gave at Stanford University's commencement that year didn't just transfix his audience.

更将在未来岁月里感动无数听众。他的核心信息很简单：生命有限，不要浪费时间过别人的生活。

It would transfix countless other audiences in the years to come. His central message was simple. As he put it, your time is limited. Don't waste it living someone else's life.

我确信让我坚持下来的唯一动力，就是热爱我所做的事。你必须找到所爱之事。这个道理对工作如此，对爱人亦然。

I'm convinced that the only thing that kept me going was that I loved what I did. You've got to find what you love. And that is as true for work as it is for your lovers.

那位发明家兼企业家说，找到一份职业与找到灵魂伴侣同等重要。

Finding a vocation, the inventor and entrepreneur said, was no less important than finding a soul mate.

就像所有心灵事务一样，当你找到它时自然会明白。正如任何美好的关系，随着岁月流逝只会愈发醇厚。

As with all matters of the heart, you'll know when you find it. And like any great relationship, it just gets better and better as the years roll on.

如果你还没找到热爱之事呢？如果你所做的工作只是谋生手段却无法让你感到完整呢？这位苹果公司的反传统领导者对应届毕业生们给出了非常明确的建议。

And what if you hadn't found something you loved? What if the work you did paid the bills but didn't complete you? The iconoclastic leader of Apple Inc. Had very definite advice for the recent graduates.

工作将占据你生命的大部分，而真正获得满足的唯一途径就是做你认为伟大的工作。做出伟大工作的唯一方法就是热爱你所做的事。如果还没找到，继续寻找，别将就。

Your work is going to fill a large part of your life and the only way to be truly satisfied is to do what you believe is great work. And the only way to do great work is to love what you do. If you haven't found it yet, keep looking and don't settle.

被使命驱动的理念可追溯至数百年前，这种表述曾用于描述那些被召唤成为神职人员、投身服务与祈祷生活的宗教人士。本质上，你是被上帝召唤的。如今，数百万世俗职业者也渴望被工作同样地激励。本周节目探讨追求使命带来的巨大力量与潜在代价。

The idea of being driven by a calling goes back centuries. It was the language used to describe religious people who were called to the priesthood, to a life of service and prayer. You were called, in effect, by God. Today, millions of people in secular professions yearn to be similarly galvanized by their work. This week on The immense power and the downsides of pursuing a calling.

你可曾在某个工作日突然停下手头工作自问：人生仅止于此吗？我是否在做命中注定之事？这种时刻你脑海中会浮现什么念头和画面？你会与谁比较？你希望自己正在做什么？

Have you ever looked up from your work in the middle of the day and asked yourself, is this all there is? Am I really doing what I was meant to do? What are the thoughts and images that go through your mind at times like this? Who do you compare yourself to? What do you wish you were doing instead?

在巴布森学院，詹妮弗·托斯塔卡里斯研究我们如何从工作中寻找意义，以及如何在职业生涯中获得更多满足感与目标感。詹妮弗·托斯塔卡里斯，欢迎来到《隐藏的大脑》。

At Babson College, Jennifer Tostikaris studies how we find meaning in work and ways we can derive more satisfaction and purpose in our professional lives. Jennifer Tostikaris, welcome to Hidden Brain.

非常感谢你，Shankar。

Thank you so much, Shankar.

Jen，我想从一个19世纪股票经纪人的故事开始。我们对Paul作为19世纪巴黎中产阶级养家糊口者的生活了解多少？

Jen, I want to start with a story of a stockbroker in the nineteenth century. What do we know about Paul life as a middle class breadwinner in nineteenth century Paris?

是的。在他成为我们今天所熟知的举世闻名艺术家之前，Paul Gauguin只是个平凡的上班族。他是个极不情愿的股票交易员，厌恶这份需要他穿戴整齐、长时间待在办公室的工作。他有个可以称之为副业的追求——或许算不上真正的副业，但确实在工作之外对艺术有着浓厚兴趣，既创作艺术也收藏艺术。

Yeah. So before he was the celebrated world renowned artist that we know today, Paul Gauguin was a workaday stiff. He was a very reluctant stock trader. He hated this job, which required him to sort of dress up, put in long hours in the office. And he had this sort of, let's call it a side pursuit, maybe not quite a side hustle, but he certainly had this interest outside of work, which was art and both making art and collecting art.

或许你认识这样的人，他们的日子充斥着厌恶的工作。或许你自己也有同感，并思考生活本可以有何不同。1882年股市崩盘，Paul Gauguin失去了日常工作，开始寻找能维持生计的工作。

Perhaps you know someone like this whose days are filled with work they detest. Perhaps you feel this way yourself and wonder how your life could have turned out differently. In 1882, the stock market crashed and Paul Gaugin lost his day job. He started to look for work that would pay the bills.

他陷入了许多人都会面临的困境——本质上是为了谋生养家，确切说是勉强维持生存，他四处寻找任何能找到的工作。

He was in a situation that so many people do find themselves where essentially to try to make a living, to try to support your family, I mean truly in a subsistence way, he was casting about for any job he could find.

即便在艰难维持生计时，Paul Gauguin仍不断回归他的激情所在。艺术是他的避难所，是他的天职。如果继续忽视它，他还能获得快乐吗？

Even as he was struggling to make ends meet, Paul Goguen kept returning to his passion. Art was his refuge, his calling. Would he ever be happy if he kept ignoring it?

这个故事的力量部分在于：如果为了逃离这种苦役，我做出彻底改变会怎样？如果在这里得不到满足，是否在其他更贴近我激情的地方能获得更多满足？Paul Gauguin采取了我们多数人不会采取的行动——在尝试迁往不同城市后，他抛下一切，彻底颠覆生活，移居塔希提岛，全职追求艺术。

This is part of the power of this story in the sense of what if then to escape this drudgery, I made a radical break. Sort of if I'm not fulfilled here, might I be better fulfilled or more fulfilled elsewhere and in a way that's a lot closer to my passions? Paul Gauguin took a move that a lot of us wouldn't. So after trying various attempts to move in new cities, he left everything, truly chucked it all, upended his life, and moved to Tahiti and pursued his art full time.

保罗·高更移居塔希提岛后的生活成为现代传记作家和艺术史学家深入研究的主题。在当时的法国殖民地塔希提，他与一名13岁女孩共同生活多年，并使一名14岁女孩怀孕。这种行为在今天世界许多地方不仅是非法的，也会令人不安。但在19世纪，法国及其殖民地的合法性同意年龄为13岁。

Paul Gorgon's life after he moved to Tahiti has been the subject of a great deal of scrutiny among modern biographers and art historians. In Tahiti, then a French colony, he lived for years with a 13 year old girl. He impregnated a 14 year old. Such behavior would be both illegal and disturbing to people in many parts of the world today. But in the nineteenth century, the legal age for sexual consent in France and French colonies was 13.

1903年保罗·高更去世时，他仍然相对默默无闻。珍妮弗表示这种情况在他死后发生了改变。

When Paul Gauguin died in 1903, he was still relatively unknown. Jennifer says that changed after his death.

因此我们现在知道，他在身后获得了巨大成功。而且，他是那种——如果你能说出几位著名画家的名字——他很可能就是其中之一。

So we know now posthumously he was extremely successful. And again, he's one of those names that if you know if you can name a few painters, famous painters, he's one of likely one of them.

今天我们记住保罗·高更，不是因为他作为股票经纪人的敏锐或销售代表的技巧，而是因为他的艺术。他的画作如今悬挂在世界顶级博物馆里。你认为至少在死后，他会觉得这场豪赌值得吗？

So we remember Paul Goggin today not for his acumen as a stockbroker or his skill as a sales rep, but but for his art. And his paintings, of course, hang in the world's preeminent museums today. Do you think at least in death he would say that his gamble paid off?

考虑到他获得的声誉——或许该说是恶名——很难不承认这点。保罗·高更不仅对同代人如文森特·梵高影响深远，更对后世艺术家如巴勃罗·毕加索产生决定性影响。艺术史学家们直接将他作品中大洋洲风格的图腾符号——那种非完全写实、略带抽象的人物造型——与毕加索的立体主义作品联系起来。

It would be hard not to say that again, given the level of fame, notoriety, perhaps infamy, but you know, that he's enjoyed. So Paul Gauguin was so influential, not only on his peers, so people like Vincent van Gogh, but on, you know, generations of artists to come, not least of which was Pablo Picasso. So art historians have drawn a direct line from the oceanic iconography and styling. You know, it's not completely naturalistic. It's somewhat abstract representation of form in Gauguin's Tahitian figures and the work of Picasso and Cubism.

就他对现代艺术的影响而言，这种影响是巨大的。因此很难说这场豪赌没有回报。事实上，如果没有抛下一切前往塔希提的巨大冒险，我们就不会在波士顿美术博物馆看到那幅标志性的巨作——那幅令所有人欣赏喜爱的艺术瑰宝。

So in terms of his impact on art today as we know it, it's been massive. And therefore, it's very hard to look and say that this gamble didn't pay off. In fact, absent this huge risk to chuck it all and move to Tahiti, We would not have the art that I love going to the MFA in Boston and looking at this giant, famous, maybe one of the most iconic Gauguin paintings, which hangs proudly there. And we would not have this beautiful art that everyone, appreciates and loves to look at.

我想谈谈另一位因其工作产生巨大影响并启发后世的人物——科学家玛丽·居里。这位以献身科研闻名的物理学家，珍妮弗，请谈谈她的影响力。

I want to talk about another person who had a giant effect as a result of her work and also influenced a number of people who came after her. This is the scientist Marie Curie. She was a physicist who was famously devoted to her work. Talk about the impact she had, Jennifer.

她在放射学和医学领域的深远影响至今仍被广泛感知。她彻底改变了我们对放射性的认知，这种影响在现代生活的诸多领域都有体现。不仅如此，或许在某种程度上我们不会这样评价高更，但居里夫人确实是一位开拓者——她是首位获得诺贝尔奖的女性，更史无前例地两次摘得诺奖桂冠，且横跨两个不同学科领域。

Her impact today is widely felt in the use of radiology and medicine. She's completely changed the way we think about radioactivity, evident in so many domains of modern life. Yet on top of that, perhaps in a way that we wouldn't say Gauguin was, Marie Curie was a groundbreaker. So she was the first woman to win a Nobel Prize. She was not only that, the first person to win a Nobel Prize twice and in separate disciplines.

分别在物理学和化学领域。同样地，她那种全情投入、孤注一掷的科研态度确实独树一帜。这是个对工作近乎痴迷的人，倾注了全部心血。对她而言，名利从不是追求目标。众所周知，她把诺贝尔奖金都捐给了需要资助的学生。

So in physics and in chemistry. Similarly, her sort of all or nothing, all in commitment to doing the science, I think really sets it apart. So this is similarly someone who was somewhat obsessed with her work, put a great deal into it. And for her, it wasn't about fame or recognition. She famously gave away her Nobel Prize money to students who needed it.

但她确实是我们至今铭记的巍峨丰碑。

But she was a towering figure who we recognize today.

詹，回顾历史显然可见，她为科学家的成就付出了巨大代价。事实上，很多人认为她的离世正是源于对放射性研究的执着追求。

And it's also clear, Jen, that looking back, we know that she paid an enormous price for her success as a scientist. In fact, many people believe she died as a result of her pursuit of the study of radioactivity.

是的。我认为这种甘愿为工作牺牲一切的精神，其终极体现就是接受可能因工作直接或间接致死的风险——无论是研究本身的危险性，还是因全身心投入挚爱事业而忽视自我保健带来的后果。

Yeah. And I think that is really the ultimate symbol of us being willing to sacrifice everything for our work is the willingness to potentially die as a result of the work or related to the work that we're doing, whether it's directly from the work itself or as a result of not taking care of ourselves because we are doing, we are pursuing work that we love.

詹，我在准备这次访谈时偶然看到美国一位先驱者的片段。她出身密西西比州的单亲贫困家庭，却始终坚信自己生而不凡。我想请你听听奥普拉·温弗瑞的这段录音。

So as I was preparing for this interview, Jen, I came by a clip from an American pioneer. She was born in poverty in Mississippi to a single mom, but she always felt like she was cut out for great things. I want you to listen to this clip from Oprah Winfrey.

有时使命就在你的邻里街巷，有时它只是对你的一声轻语。当你开始尊重这声低语并追随它时，终将成就最好的自己。

Sometimes the calling is right in your own neighborhood. Sometimes the calling is something that was just a whisper to you. And when you begin to honor that whisper and to follow that, you end up being the best that you could be.

当然，奥普拉后来成为了亿万富翁。你知道，人们曾恳求她竞选总统。我们刚才探讨了十九世纪的一位画家、二十世纪的一位科学家，以及二十一世纪的一位电视明星。詹，你从这些故事中听出共同点了吗？

Now, Oprah, of course, went on to become a billionaire. You know, people have begged her to run for president. So we've looked at a painter in the nineteenth century, a scientist in the twentieth century, and a television star in the twenty first century. Do you hear common threads in these stories, Jen?

绝对如此。我认为这里的共同点是这种观念：工作可以是一种召唤，它不仅仅是薪水，更可以成为个人实现、在世界上做出伟大成就的源泉。正如我们讨论的，这是一种深深沉浸于工作本身的状态。我相信，这确实展现了将工作视为不仅仅是——如果你愿意这么说——一份职业，而是视为既能成就自我又能贡献世界的真正可能性的力量。

So absolutely. I think the common thread here is this notion that work can be a calling, it can be more than just a paycheck, it can be a source of personal fulfillment of doing great things in the world. And as we talked about, a really deep sense of immersing yourself in the doing of the work. It does show the power, I believe, of viewing one's work as more than, if you will, just a job, but as a real possibility to contribute both to yourself and to the world at large.

稍后回来时，我们将探讨职业心理学，以及我们如何都能在工作中找到更深层的意义。您正在收听的是《隐藏的大脑》。我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。这里是《隐藏的大脑》。我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。

When we come back, the psychology of vocations and how we can all find greater meaning in our work. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.

2005年史蒂夫·乔布斯在斯坦福大学毕业典礼上演讲时，讲述了他辍学的原因。他说当时非常害怕，但回首往事，那是我做过最正确的决定之一。辍学让他能够旁听自己感兴趣的课程，而不是被迫去上规定的课。他说：‘我没有宿舍，所以睡在朋友房间的地板上。我捡可乐瓶换5美分押金来买食物，每周日晚上步行7英里穿过市区，只为在哈瑞奎师那寺庙吃一顿像样的饭。’

When Steve Jobs spoke at Stanford's commencement in 2005, he told the story of why he dropped out of college. It was pretty scary at the time, he said, but looking back, it was one of the best decisions I ever made. Dropping out allowed him to drop in on classes that interested him rather than classes he was being told to attend. He said, I didn't have a dorm room, so I slept on the floor in friends' rooms. I returned Coke bottles for the 5¢ deposits to buy food with, and I would walk the 7 miles across town every Sunday night to get one good meal a week at the Hare Krishna temple.

我热爱这种生活。当时凭着好奇与直觉偶然涉足的许多事物，后来都成了无价之宝。在巴布森学院，詹妮弗·托斯特·卡拉研究工作的本质与意义。詹，你说人们能从工作中找到意义和快乐是相对较新的观念——有多新呢？

I loved it. And much of what I stumbled into by following my curiosity and intuition turned out to be priceless later on. At Babson College, Jennifer Toste Carra studies the nature and meaning of work. Jenn, you say that the notion that we can find meaning and pleasure in work is relatively recent. How recent?

将工作视为天职的概念可以追溯到宗教改革时期，当时认为工作可能是上帝的召唤，具体是指对神职人员的召唤，直接为上帝服务。而将工作作为世俗意义上的召唤获得认可，大约是在知识型工作兴起的时期，即80、90年代，那时人们开始拥有可以自主负责的项目，能够真正投入其中。因此人们感觉这不仅仅是工作，而是自我的一部分——我真正将自我倾注其中。

The idea of work as a calling goes way, way back to the Protestant Reformation, where the idea was work could be a calling, and specifically that calling was to the ministry, to the clergy, to serve God directly. Now, work as a secular calling started to gain a foothold around the time that we started having knowledge work. So kind of 80s, 90s, where I have a project I can own, I can really invest myself into. And so therefore, I really feel like it's more than just my job, it's me. I'm actually putting me into it.

我认为2005年史蒂夫·乔布斯毕业演讲的时期，正是‘天职’概念达到顶峰的时候。如果你查看谷歌图书词频统计中‘找到你的天职’或‘找到你的热情’这类短语，就会发现：这条曲线起初非常平缓，80年代初开始上升，到2000年前后几乎达到疯狂的最高点。所以这个概念有深厚根源，我们不再认为这是来自更高力量的召唤，而是这种召唤体验非常个人化、非常深刻，与自我意识紧密相连。

I would say that the time of this Steve Jobs commencement speech, 2005, is right around the time of peak calling. And if you look at Google engrams for find your calling or find your passion, it really follows this. We see this meandering line, very low, starting to uptick in the early 1980s, and then reaching this kind of insane asymptotic almost peak in right around the early 2000s. And so, this idea has deep roots, we don't assume this is a calling from a higher power, but that the experience of the calling is very, very personal, very deep, and very sort of connected to this sense of self.

那么你自己的研究探索了拥有使命感的效应。你调查了那些找到使命感的人的幸福水平。陈，这些人是否对工作更投入和满意？

So your own research has explored the effects of having a calling. You've examined the happiness levels of people who have found a calling. Are these people more engaged and satisfied with their work, Chen?

是的，确实如此。我和我的合著者Shasa DeBrow、Hannah Weissman以及Danny Heller一起，进行了约二十年的定量调查，研究将工作视为使命意味着什么。我们非常明确地发现，具有强烈使命感的人报告说他们对工作和生活更满意，工作投入度更高，并且有一些行为指标显示更好的表现和更低的缺勤率。这些发现与关于为何及如何将工作视为使命重要的研究结果是一致的。

Yeah, they are. So I conducted along with my co authors, Shasa DeBrow, Hannah Weissman, and Danny Heller, we conducted about a twenty year quantitative survey of results on what it means to experience work as a calling. And we found very strongly that people with strong callings report greater satisfaction with their work and their life, and with engagement at work, and some behavioral indicators of better performance, lower absenteeism. And these are sort of consistent findings across studies about how and why experiencing work as a calling matters.

史蒂夫·乔布斯曾说过，拥有使命感能让你努力工作，因为你是带着激情工作的。你发现这一点了吗？证据支持这一点吗？有使命感的人是否更倾向于努力工作？

So Steve Jobs argued that having a calling allows you to work hard because you're working with passion. Do you find that? Is that borne out by the evidence? Are people with a calling, do they have a higher propensity for hard work?

在与Shasa DeBrow和Heather Capas的一项研究中，我们研究了这个问题：强烈的使命感是否会导致更大的努力？我们通过实证发现确实如此。所以当你有更强的使命感时，你会在与使命相关的任务上付出更多努力。但不是所有任务，对吧？它必须是与使命相关的。如果我的使命感是针对我的工作领域，那么我会在工作中投入更多努力。

In a study with Shasa DeBrow and Heather Capas, we looked at this very question of do strong callings lead to greater effort? And we found empirically that they do. So when you have a stronger calling, you will expend more effort on calling relevant tasks. So not just any task, right? It has to be sort of so if my calling is toward my work domain, and then I'll put in more effort at work.

这种现象发生的机制是通过对工作的享受。更强的使命感意味着我更享受工作，因此我会更努力地工作。

The mechanism through which this happens is through enjoyment of that work. So stronger calling means I enjoy the work more. Therefore, I will work harder at it.

所以这就是那种'如果你热爱你所做的事，那么你一生中就不会有一天是在工作'的理念。就是这个意思。

So this is the idea that if you love what you do, then you'll never work a day in your life. It's that idea.

完全正确。

Exactly right.

其他研究发现，那些有使命感的人更具韧性。他们能更好地承受挫折。为什么会这样呢，Jen？

So other research finds that people who have a calling are more resilient. They're able to better withstand setbacks. Why would this be the case, Jen?

是的。使命感就像一种深层的韧性储备，与工作的紧密联系，即使工作中遇到困难，这种与我从事工作的联系感、对自己能力的信念也能帮助我克服挫折。

Yeah. So a calling could almost be like a deep reserve of resilience, of connection to the work, the sense that even if things are not going well in work, that somehow my connection to the work that I'm doing, my belief in my ability to do it can help me to overcome a setback.

你曾针对美国军官进行过一项研究，比较了有使命感和没有使命感的群体。请谈谈这项研究及其发现。

You conducted a study of officers serving in the U. S. Military and compared people who felt a calling to those who did not. Tell me about the study and what you found.

这项研究是与Marco DiRenzo和Ned Pauley共同开展的。我们对军官进行了问卷调查。这些受访者是具有约10-12年军龄的中层初级军官，但都具备管理经验。我们特别关注了他们是否认为自己遭遇了职业瓶颈期——顾名思义就是这种情况。

Yeah, so this was with Marco DiRenzo and Ned Pauley. We conducted a survey of military officers. So they were mid career sort of junior officers, but with supervisory experience. They had about ten to twelve years of service on average in the military. And we specifically looked at their perception that they had hit a career plateau, which is just what it sounds like.

不是那种理想的职业上升轨迹感，而是感觉自己停滞不前。这种主观上认为在当前职业中不再学习成长的感觉。我们发现，军官对军队的使命感越强，就越不容易认为自己处于职业瓶颈期。这种认知进而增强了他们继续服役的组织承诺。

So rather than the sense that I'm on the typical career upward trajectory that is desired, that I have leveled off. Basically this subjective sense that I'm not learning and growing and developing in my current career. And we found that the stronger their callings toward the military, the less likely they were to perceive that they were at a plateaued space in their career. That in turn drove their commitment to staying in the military as an organization.

史蒂夫·乔布斯曾说追随使命感让他更具创造力。是否有更普遍的证据支持这种说法？

So Steve Jobs told us that following a calling helped him be more creative. Is there any evidence that that is the case more generally?

更强的使命感意味着你与该领域建立了更深层次的联系。你可能想了解更多相关知识，愿意投入更多时间。相比缺乏强烈使命感的员工，具有强烈使命感的员工更愿意付出额外资源。就像我们讨论过的乔布斯、奥普拉等人那样，使命感可能意味着对工作的全情投入，这种沉浸状态往往会带来突破性成果。

Stronger callings mean you're just more deeply connected to that domain. You might want to learn more about it. You might want to spend more time doing it. Employees with strong callings might expend resources that other employees who don't feel as strongly just simply aren't as willing to expend. So this notion that like Steve Jobs, like Oprah, like everyone else we talked about, a calling might mean an engulfment or immersion in the work that leads to breakthroughs.

我得说我们需要更多研究来支持这些结论，但关于'强烈使命感能促使人们做出卓越工作'的观点确实很有依据。

I will say we need more research to support these conclusions, but the notion that experiencing a strong calling has leads people to do great work or their best work is very well founded.

那么Jen，你在职业生涯初期是管理咨询师，这份工作对你来说是什么样的体验？

So in your own career Jen, you started out as a management consultant. What was that work like for you?

是的，我本科读的是商科，能在纽约大公司当管理咨询师简直像做梦一样——收入高得离谱，同事都是聪明有趣的人。咨询工作以项目为基础，所以不会无聊，总是接触新机构、新环境，有时是新城市，还能经常出差。

Yeah, I so I was an undergraduate business major and getting a job as a management consultant at a big firm in New York City was like a dream because I was making more money than seemed reasonable. I was working with smart, very interesting people. Consulting work is project based, so it doesn't get boring. You're always moving around new organization, new setting, sometimes a new city. There was travel.

那时我年轻无牵挂，觉得一切都很光鲜——攒酒店积分、飞行里程什么的。但尽管有这么多客观理由让我热爱这份工作，我却从不觉得咨询是我的天职，甚至坦白说不想长期做下去。我还注意到明显的性别差异，虽然现在咨询公司里可能有所改善，但仍是典型现象——多数有家庭的合伙人都是男性。

I was young and unencumbered. It was all very glamorous, getting hotel points and all these kinds of things, frequent flyer miles. But despite all these sort of objective reasons for me to love the work, I never felt like consulting was certainly my calling or even frankly something I wanted to stay in. And I also noticed this real gender gap and this has gotten, I think, somewhat better, probably not all the way better, but somewhat better within consulting firms. But it was this classic thing where you would see a lot of predominantly male partners who had families, kids at home.

而女性合伙人本就稀少，且基本都是单身无子女。我不禁思考：这是我想要的生活吗？每周可能出差四五天的工作真适合我吗？最终我决定离开，去做别的事。

But the female partners, few as they are, primarily single, no children. And I'm just thinking both. Is this the life that I want? But also, is this the work that I can really see myself doing traveling potentially four or five days a week? And ultimately I decided that it was not and that I needed to do something else.

所以你后来离开咨询公司成为学者。Jim，你觉得教书和研究是你的天职吗？

So you eventually left the consulting firm and you became an academic. Do you feel a calling when it comes to being a teacher and a researcher, Jim?

是的，我确实感受到召唤。能研究这些困扰我一生的问题真的很幸运——比如为什么人们把大量时间花在工作上？为什么当聚会上有人问'你是做什么的'时，我们都明白这是在问职业？

Yeah, I do feel a calling and I feel so fortunate to be able to study these questions that I've wondered about my whole life, really. Like, why do people spend so much time at work? Why does work define us to the extent that it does when we go to parties and someone says, what do you do? We know what that means. That means what do you do for a living?

这并不是指你通常做什么工作，对吧？在美国东北部——我主要生活的地方，你的职业定义了你这个人。我一直想更深入地理解这一点。能够研究这个课题并与真实的人交谈，了解他们对此的共鸣，这简直太棒了。

It doesn't mean like, what do you do in general, right? In The US and in the Northeast, which is where I've mostly lived, what you do is who you are. I wanted to understand always more about that. So being able to study that and to talk to real people and find out more about how this resonates with them, I mean, that is the best.

确实。我得说，我几乎不需要问你是否有在追求使命这个问题，因为从你说话的语气中我就能听出来。我能感受到你对所做之事的热情。通常当遇到有使命感的人时，他们总是迫不及待地想告诉你他们做的事情有多棒。即便他们从事的可能非常冷门，或者对你毫无吸引力，但他们的热情在某种程度上会感染你。

Yeah. I have to say that, you know, I almost didn't need to ask you the question of whether you are whether you feel like you are pursuing a calling because I can almost hear it in your voice as you are talking. I can hear your enthusiasm for what it is that you do. And I feel like that's often the case, that when you come by people who have a calling, it's almost as if they're they're jumping out of themselves to tell you how wonderful it is, the thing that they're doing. And what they are doing could be quite obscure, and could have no interest whatsoever to you, but their enthusiasm in some ways rubs off on you.

我认为完全正确。我甚至可以说，组织中的同事听到每个人对工作的感受时可能不会感到意外。你能感受到他们对工作的投入、甚至痴迷，这些无形的东西会自然流露出来。

I think that's absolutely right. I would go so far as to say it probably wouldn't be a surprise to people working in an organization to hear from each person how they feel about their work. I think there would be something intangible that you could sense about their engagement with the work, maybe their obsession with the work, how they feel about the work that would come through.

这看起来像是轻而易举的事。史蒂夫·乔布斯说得对，我们都应该找到并追求自己的使命。但正如你们收听本节目所知，人性无比复杂。在某个领域对我们有益的东西，在另一个领域可能成为阻碍。

It can seem like a slam dunk. Steve Jobs was right. All of us should find and pursue our callings. But human nature, as you know from listening to this show, is endlessly complicated. What serves us well in one domain can be an impediment in another.

稍后回来，我们将探讨使命感的阴暗面。您正在收听《隐藏的大脑》，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。这里是《隐藏的大脑》，我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔。

When we come back, the downsides of callings. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.

收听本期节目时，你是否觉得听到了自己的写照——一个找到了人生使命、拥有超越自我的目标与激情的人？还是对那些找到使命的人心生羡慕，并怀疑自己能否找到类似的东西？如果你有关于使命的故事或问题愿意与《隐藏的大脑》听众分享，请找个安静的房间用手机录制语音备忘录，发送邮件至ideashiddenbrain.org，主题注明「使命」。

As you're listening to this episode, do you feel like you're hearing a description of yourself, someone who has found what they were meant to do, someone with a purpose and a passion that transcends them? Or do you feel envy of people who have found their calling and wonder whether you'll ever find something similar? If you have stories or questions about having a calling that you'd be willing to share with the Hidden Brain audience, please go to a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone. Email it to us at ideashiddenbrain dot org. Use the subject line calling.

再次提醒邮箱地址：ideashiddenbrain.org。西格蒙德·弗洛伊德说过人类幸福有两个源泉：爱与工作。与他人建立亲密私密的联系对人生繁荣至关重要。朋友、家人和爱人让生命值得延续。

That email address again is ideashiddenbrain dot org. Sigmund Freud said there are two sources of human happiness. There was love and there was work. Close, intimate, personal ties with other people are essential to flourishing. Friends, families, and lovers make life worth living.

但同样，他认为，能证明我们在世界上有所作为的工作可以成为持久满足感的源泉。在巴布森学院，詹妮弗·托斯蒂·卡里斯发现这一观点确实成立。有意义的工作是幸福的源泉。她与哲学家克里斯托弗·王·米克尔森合著了《你的工作值得吗？如何思考有意义的工作》一书。

But equally, he argued, work that shows we are making a difference in the world can be a source of enduring satisfaction. At Babson College, Jennifer Tosti Carys has found that this is true. Meaningful work is a source of happiness. Along with a philosopher, Christopher Wong Mikkelsen, she is the author of the book Is Your Work Worth It? How to Think About Meaningful Work.

珍，在我们的文化中，拥有使命感的理念备受推崇，以至于许多人可能会惊讶地发现追求天职也可能存在弊端。但你和他人研究发现，追求职业召唤确实存在缺陷。首先，追求天职似乎会扭曲我们的判断力。你特别在音乐家群体中研究了这一现象。有什么发现？

Jen, the idea of having a calling is so celebrated in our culture that it might come as a surprise to many people that callings can have downsides. But you and others have found that there can be drawbacks to pursuing a vocation. For one thing, pursuing a calling seems to distort our judgment. You've looked at this idea specifically in the context of musicians. What do you find?

是的。首先我同意这确实令人惊讶，因为我们已深深内化了'做你热爱的事，财富自会随之而来'、'找到你的使命，热爱你的人生'这类文化信条。这些甚至直接成为书名，看似不言自明——仿佛只要找到使命，其余都是锦上添花。但现实截然不同。

Yeah. So I agree, first of all, that this is startling to people because we have so encoded this cultural message of do what you love, the money will follow, find your calling, love your life. These are literally book titles that seem so obvious. You know, I find my calling and the rest is gravy. But the reality looks very different.

音乐家是极具研究价值的群体，因为这是典型的艺术领域。我们预期会看到大量对音乐的使命感与热情——毕竟这是许多人以不同方式追求的领域。但这也是个充满风险的职业，因为我们知道并非所有想成为职业音乐家的人都能成功。

And musicians are fascinating to study because this is both a quintessential arts field. Right. We would imagine to see a lot of callings, a lot of passion toward music. It's something a lot of us do pursue in some way or another. But yet it's a very fraught profession because we know that not everyone will make it as a professional musician who might want to.

体育、艺术等众多领域同样如此。我进行了一系列研究，我的合著者莎莎·德布劳也完成了一系列有趣研究。她不仅是伦敦经济学院的教授，还是职业巴松管演奏家，对这个领域了如指掌。她对音乐家进行了长达十一年的追踪研究。

The same way with sports, arts, lots of different fields operate like this. So I've done a series of studies and there's a series of interesting studies that have been done by my coauthor, Shasa DeBrow. She is not only a professor at the London School of Economics, but she is a professional bassoonist. So she knows this world very, very well. So she has been studying musicians over a long career span, so eleven years and counting.

她最初研究这些对象时，他们还只是参加音乐特长班的高中生。通过评估他们对音乐的使命感强度，数年后再观察其职业选择。不出所料，使命感越强的人越可能走上职业音乐道路。但驱动因素并非我们以为的实际能力水平，而是他们对自己才华的认知——事实上，使命感强烈者往往高估自身能力水平。

And she started studying them when they were in a program for talented high school students who were talented at music. And she assessed their level of calling toward music, then saw years later, do they pursue music professionally or not? Maybe not surprisingly, the stronger the calling, the more likely people are to pursue music professionally down the road. But that one of the drivers of this is not their actual ability or talent level as we might think, but their perception that they're talented and that actually with strong callings, people tend to have overinflated perception of their own ability level. So they think they're better than they are.

这导致他们选择这条高风险职业道路。由此我们提出：强烈的使命感可能导致职业隧道视野，使人根本无法想象自己会失败——'我如此热爱，怎么可能不是突破重围的那个人？这既是我的激情所在，更是我的天职啊！'

And that leads them then to pursue this pretty risky career path. So that started this idea that strong callings might lead to a sort of a career tunnel vision where you truly can't imagine that you won't make it because I love it so much. How can I not be the one to break through when this is my passion and this is my calling?

当那些怀有使命感的人收到他人反馈或指导，指出他们实际上并不如自己想象中那么优秀时，会发生什么？

What happens when people who have a calling get feedback or guidance from others that in fact they're not as good as they think they are?

没错，他们不会听取这种反馈。我和莎莎专门针对音乐人群体研究了这一现象。我们发现，音乐人的使命感越强，他们就越不可能听从私人音乐老师的建议——如果那位老师劝阻他们从事音乐行业的话。他们基本上会说‘非常感谢，但我不同意’。

Yeah, they do not listen to that feedback. So Shasa and I have studied this specifically in the context of musicians. And so what we found was the stronger musicians calling toward music, the less likely they were to follow the advice of their private music teacher if that music teacher discouraged them from going into music. They would basically say, thank you very much. I disagree.

‘我无论如何都要坚持’。为了避免我们认为这种现象仅限于音乐人或艺术领域，我们在商学院学生样本中复现了这一发现：学生们的商业使命感越强，就越不会接受信任导师的建议（我们这次设定得更开放些——当信任导师劝阻他们从事商业领域时）。这似乎说明强烈的使命感具有某种共性。人们很容易会问：这为什么是坏事呢？

I'm doing it anyway. And lest we think this phenomenon is limited to or specific to musicians or the context of music or the arts, we replicated this exact finding in a sample of business school students who said the stronger their callings toward business, they would not accept the advice of a trusted mentor. We left this one more open, a trusted mentor who discouraged them from going into business professionally. So there does seem to be something about strong callings. It would be very easy to say, well, why is this a bad thing?

难道我们不该有这种‘我就是要做这件事，什么都阻止不了我’的信念吗？事实上，就像我们之前提到的史蒂夫·乔布斯等典型使命故事，不正是关于逆风翻盘的吗？‘尽管万般阻挠，我仍坚持到底并取得成功’。某种程度上这确实成立。显然，一定的自信心——甚至略微膨胀的自我认知——可能有益、具有适应性或能增强韧性。

Shouldn't we have a sense that we are like, I want to do this and nothing's going to stop me and no one or nothing can dissuade me? In fact, a lot of these archetypal, you know, calling stories like we shared earlier, Steve Jobs, etcetera, it's about overcoming these odds, right? Despite everything stacked against me, I persevered and I broke through and I made it. And I think that can be true to a point. Obviously, some self confidence or even maybe a little bit of an overinflated self perception might be helpful or might be adaptive or might help with resilience.

但很难不想到：当这种拒绝倾听真心为我们好之人提供真实反馈的固执达到某种程度时，很可能会对我们造成伤害。

But it's hard not to think that there comes a point when an inability to listen to people that have our best interests at heart, who are telling us giving us real feedback, that the inability to listen to this might harm us in some way.

许多使命感的职业并不涉及赚大钱，比如艺术、音乐，还有多数体育项目（或许并非全部）。关于追求使命感职业的经济影响，我们了解些什么？

There are many callings that do not involve making a lot of money. I'm thinking about the arts. I'm thinking about music. I'm thinking about sports in many cases, perhaps not all sports, but many sports. What do we know about the economic impacts of pursuing a calling gen?

确实如此。更典型的使命感导向职业——无论是非营利工作、助人工作还是国际援助等——往往薪酬不高。因此许多追求使命感或意义性工作的人，实际上已被默认为需要接受相对于‘去大银行工作别问太多’或‘去大律所工作别过问客户背景’这类职业的降薪。这某种程度上意味着，我们要求人们用对工作的热爱或从中获得的意义感来替代薪酬。

Yeah. So you're absolutely right that the more prototypical calling oriented professions, whether it's nonprofit work, helping work, international aid work, etc, tend to not be well paid. So already many people to pursue their callings or meaningful work in general are being asked implicitly to accept a pay cut relative to I'm going to go work for that big bank and not ask too many questions, right? Or I'm going to go work for, you know, I'm going to work in a big law firm and not ask too many questions about who my clients are, things like that. So already we have some sense that we ask people in society to take their love for what they're doing or the meaning they get from the work they do and substitute it for pay.

但实际上，在我自己和他人的研究中发现，使命感更强的人确实会为了做热爱的工作而做出经济上的牺牲。于是问题突然变成了：这会不会是过度工作？这本质上让人容易被利用。

But actually, we have found this in my own research and the research of others that people with stronger callings will actually make financial sacrifices to do the work that they love doing. So suddenly the question becomes, is this potentially overwork? And that basically sets people up to be taken advantage of.

我是说，我正想问这个问题：如果有人因为声称‘我在追求热爱的事业’而愿意工作却不真正寻求或要求报酬，这是否会让他们容易受到剥削？

I mean, I was just going to ask you this question, which is if someone is willing to work without really seeking or demanding pay because they're saying I'm pursuing my passion, doesn't that make them vulnerable to exploitation?

完全正确。这正是我教导学生并要特别警告人们的——因为我们说过这些人是优秀员工，是组织真正想要吸引和留住的人才。如果在此基础上，雇主还觉得‘无论我要求你做什么，让你在非工作时间随叫随到，永远超额完成任务——我知道其他员工靠不住，但绝对可以指望你’，那什么时候会变得不公平？

Absolutely. And so that's something that I teach my students about and that I would really caution people about because we've already said that these are the good workers and that these are people that organizations really want to attract and really want to retain. So then if on top of that, I really feel like, gosh, no matter what I ask you to do, I ask you to come in off hours, all times of day or night, always go above and beyond. Oh, I know I can't count on my other employees, but I can really count on you. At what point is it unfair?

这是剥削吗？是否以消耗性的方式侵入了个人空间和生活，坦率地说会导致倦怠？事实上，一些研究发现，使命感更强的人——正面说法是他们超额奉献成为理想员工；负面说法是他们甚至会牺牲无薪的个人时间——结果他们确实可能报告更多身心问题：更严重的疲劳、压力、职业倦怠，最终因这种工作节奏不可持续而离职。

Is it exploitative? And is it pushing into a personal space, personal life in a way that is depleting and frankly would lead to burnout? And in fact, that is what some studies have found is that people with stronger callings, the good way to say it is they go above and beyond their ideal employees. The more negative way to say it is they will sacrifice personal time even when it's not paid. And they do, they can, as a result, report, greater physical and psychological, health issues, greater fatigue, stress, burnout, and ultimately will leave jobs because it's simply unsustainable to keep working at this pace.

你讲过一个关于科林·哈金斯的故事。他的经历与我们讨论的内容有何关联，珍？

You tell the story about a man named Colin Huggins. What is his story and how is it germane to what we're talking about here, Jen?

是的，这是另一位音乐人的故事。科林·哈金斯是街头艺人，他在华盛顿广场公园中央演奏900磅重的施坦威小三角钢琴。听众如果曾路过那里，可能会偶遇他演奏绝美古典乐的场景。

Yeah. So this is another musician's story. Colin Huggins is a busker. So he plays his 900 pound Steinway baby grand piano in the middle of Washington Square Park. So listeners may have stumbled upon him if they've walked through Washington Square Park and heard absolutely beautiful classical music being played.

他 literally 把这架钢琴从东村的公寓拖到华盛顿广场公园，在琴下铺移动毯子，邀请人们躺下来感受他创造的声音之墙。这是他自愿的选择——他曾是乔弗里芭蕾舞团的职业伴奏，形容自己一旦尝到公开表演的滋味就上瘾了。他对音乐和公开表演怀有强烈的热情。

He would literally lug this piano from his apartment in the East Village over to Washington Square Park and the moving blankets he would lay under the piano and invite people to lay down under the piano so they could really experience the wall of sound that he was producing. He was doing this by choice. He used to be a professional accompanist for the Joffrey Ballet. He described that once he got a taste of this public performance, he was hooked. So he experienced a strong passion for music, a strong passion for public performance.

或许并不令人意外，即使在新冠疫情之前，这也并非一种赚钱的生活方式。但最后——这已经代表着为工作做出的真正牺牲——我读到关于科林·哈金斯的最新消息，这位深受村民和华盛顿广场公园喜爱的钢琴师。那是2023年，据报道他已无家可归，无法继续支付东村的房租，实际上就睡在公园的钢琴上。这是一个极其悲惨、令人心酸的故事，讲述了为热爱的工作做出终极牺牲，甚至几乎不顾基本生活需求。

And it may come as no surprise, this was not a lucrative way to make a living even pre COVID. But the last, and this is already representing a real sacrifice to do one's work. But the last that I had read about Colin Huggins, and again, he's this beloved piano man of the village and of Washington Square Park, This was in 2023. It was reported that he was homeless, so couldn't keep paying the rent in the East Village and was in fact sleeping in the park on his piano. So this is a terribly tragic, very poignant story of sort of ultimate sacrifice to do work that one loves, sort of with very little concern about even meeting basic needs.

当新机会出现时，许多人会换工作。如果你不喜欢某份工作，可以换另一份。但如果你在追求使命，而职业生涯未能按计划发展，这种情感体验与失业或被解雇截然不同。两者都痛苦，但当你觉得自己在做命中注定且意义深远的事时，失去这样的职业生涯会异常艰难。

So many people switch jobs as new opportunities come up. And if you don't like one job, can go to another job. But if you're pursuing a calling and your career doesn't work out as planned, this feels emotionally very different than someone who loses a job or gets laid off from a position. I mean, they're both painful. But if you feel like you're doing something you're called to do and it's deeply meaningful to you, losing out on a career like that can be very, very difficult.

你能谈谈这种观点吗？某种程度上，拥有使命感的弊端之一就是当它无法成为职业时会怎样？

Can you talk about this idea that in some ways one of the downsides of having a calling is what happens when it doesn't work out as a career?

当然。首先并非所有人都幸运地找到与使命相符的工作。同样，也并非所有人都能持续从事使命相关的工作。我们可以想象原因有很多——人们可能无法追求自己的使命。

Absolutely. So not everyone is lucky enough to find work in their calling to begin with. Similarly, not everyone is able to sustain work in the calling. And we can imagine that could be for a lot of reasons. People might not be able to pursue their callings.

贾斯汀·伯格等人的研究表明，这是一种充满挫败感、遗憾和抑郁的深度心理抗拒状态。因为这不仅仅是'我需要一份工作，任何工作都行'，而是你内心认为工作必须符合自己对'工作应为何物'的高标准期待。

And research by Justin Berg and others has shown that this is a deeply psychologically aversive state filled with frustration, regret, depression because it's not just I need a job, any job. You sort of have this notion that it's really got to live up to this high sense that I have of what work should be.

詹，值得指出的是，我们选择的影响不仅由自己承担。周围人也会受到影响。我们之前讨论过画家保罗·高更离开法国去塔希提岛追求艺术梦想的故事。如今他或许作为伟大艺术家载入史册，但请谈谈他的选择对身边人的影响。这种遗产是什么样的？

It's worth also pointing out, Jen, that the effects of the choices we make are not experienced only by ourselves. The people around us are affected as well. We talked earlier about how the painter Paul Gauguin left France to try his luck as an artist in Tahiti. Now he may have gone into the history books as a great artist, but talk a moment about the impact of his choices on the people around him. What does that legacy look like?

算不上好遗产，尚卡尔。用今天的话说，保罗·高更应该被'取消'——我们认为他理应被抵制，因为他以牺牲家庭为代价过着极端自私的生活。他去塔希提时抛下了法国的家人。首先他不再承担家庭责任，而且正如我们所说，他在波利尼西亚卖画收入微薄，根本无法寄钱养家。

Not such a good legacy, Shankar. So Paul Gauguin today, in the parlance of today, should be canceled, or we believe he should be canceled because he led a life of utter selfishness at the expense of his family. He left his family behind in France when he went to Tahiti. So first of all, he was no longer there to contribute. And as we said, he was not doing so well by selling his art in Polynesia that he could send money home to them.

换句话说，他抛弃了在法国的家人。更进一步说，根据各方记载，保罗·高更如今的名声颇具争议——他追求自己画中的女性，据传与她们有染。有故事说，他最疼爱的孩子去世时，他仍未归家。种种迹象表明，这最终导致了他的崩溃。他逐渐陷入疯狂，被自己的绘画执念吞噬，这种全情投入的激情或痴迷，让他在波利尼西亚离世，始终没有回到被他遗弃的家庭。

So another way to say this is he abandoned his family in France. And to go one step further by all accounts, I mean, Paul Gauguin is now a very kind of con his legacy is somewhat conflicted by the fact that he pursued women that he painted and had, you know, by all accounts, affairs with them. There's a story that his favorite child died, and he still did not return home. And by all accounts, it sort of led to his downfall. He went sort of mad and and, you know, kind of consumed by his own, you know, obsession to paint, but it was sort of this all consuming passion or obsession, and he died in Polynesia without having returned home to this family that he essentially left behind.

被使命裹挟会让人变得偏执而专注。这对追求激情或许是好事，却可能损害生活的其他方面，从身体健康到亲友关系。同事之间往往就是这样，利弊总是相伴而生。

Being swept up by a calling can make people obsessive and single-minded. That might be good for the pursuit of passion, but it can be harmful for other dimensions of life, from your physical health to your relationships with family and friends. So often it seems the good and the bad go hand in hand when it comes to colleagues.

是的，我同意这个观点。我认为这确实是人们需要警惕的现象。就像有人会说'既然你真心热爱这份工作，我们不必付你太多薪水'一样，这也可能成为忽视工作以外领域的借口——'我全身心投入工作，工作对我最重要'。那么生活中其他重要领域，无论是需要你养家的责任，还是工作之外自我关爱与生活培养的价值，何时会因这种全情投入的工作状态而受损呢？

Yeah, I would agree with that. I think it's certainly something that people should be aware of and look out for. So I think just in the same way that it might be this excuse, you know, we don't have to pay you as much because you really love it. It also might be an excuse to not engage fully in areas outside of work because I'm so consumed by work and my work is the most important thing to me. At what point do other domains of life, whatever those are, whether they're a family who depends on you, whether they're just self care and the cultivation of a life outside work, which has merit and benefit, at what point do those things suffer because of this kind of all in sense of performing the work?

有趣的是，我们讨论过'天职'这个概念充满浪漫色彩，但我不断发现其与真实爱情故事的相似性。一两百年前，人们认为工作只是谋生手段。同样地，几个世纪前婚姻也仅是生儿育女的世俗制度。如今人们却期待浪漫伴侣成为灵魂知己。

You know, it's interesting. We've talked about how the idea of having a calling is a romantic idea, but I can't stop seeing the parallels with actual romance. So a century or two ago, everyone thought that work was just how you paid the bills. But similarly, you know, a couple centuries ago, marriage was a very prosaic institution designed primarily for raising children. Today, people want romantic partners who are going to be their soulmates.

同理，怀揣天职的人可能听不进忠告，热恋中的人也会丧失理性。如果未能实现天职会让人心碎，失恋同样会使人悲痛欲绝。从心理学角度看，你认为这两种情境是否存在某些相同的心理机制？

Similarly, people with a calling might ignore good advice. People in love can be blind to reason. And if having a calling that doesn't work out can leave you brokenhearted, failing at love can also leave you grief stricken. And I'm wondering, psychologically, do you think in some ways there are the same processes that are at work here?

我认为确实存在。这个比喻非常精妙，两者心理过程极为相似。我想提醒听众——可能有人很久没重温史蒂夫·乔布斯的毕业演讲了——他做过这样的类比：不要将就，持续寻找直到遇见完美契合的工作，那份你热爱的事业。

I think they are. I think that is so well said. And I think they are very similar processes. I want to remind listeners who maybe haven't heard the Steve Jobs commencement speech in a while, he makes this parallel. He says don't settle, keep looking until you found that perfect fit, that job that you love.

这在你职业生涯中的重要性，不亚于寻找灵魂伴侣。他直接将寻觅理想工作与寻找真爱相提并论。正如爱情生活中这是个极高的标准，对任何工作而言同样如此。研究也印证了这点：使命感越强的人，正如我们讨论过的，往往会对工作全情投入。

It's as important in your work life as it is with your romantic partners. I mean, makes this literal parallel to a romantic search and the search for the perfect job. And just as this is a very high bar to live up to in your romantic life, this is a very high bar for any job to live up to. And again, the research bears this out. So people with stronger callings tend to be so again, we've talked about how they're all in on work.

他们非常，你知道的，总是超额完成任务，思维跳出框架。但另一方面，他们可能对周围的人极为挑剔，无论是组织、领导还是同事，只要观点与他们相左。就实际工作表现而言，他们可能相当难相处，职场关系紧张。如果需要加班，他们会第一个报名，但如果做出他们不同意的决定——因为那与我的使命背道而驰——他们也会第一个抱怨。

They're very, you know, go above and beyond, think outside of the box. The flip side of this is they can be extremely critical of those around them, whether it's the organization, leaders, coworkers have a view that differs from their own. But in terms of actually performing the work, they can be quite tough to work with. They can have strained work relationships. They will be the first to sign up if someone needs to work extra hours, but also the first to complain if a decision is made that they don't agree with or that they because again, it runs counter to my calling.

所以，对完美工作抱有过高理想，就像认为找到完美人生伴侣后每天都会玫瑰盛开、阳光普照、永不争吵、再无困难一样不切实际。这些都是神话。

So to have this lofty ideal of what the perfect job is going to feel like is just as sort of unrealistic an assumption as thinking when I find my perfect life partner, every day will be roses and sunshine and will never quarrel and nothing will ever feel hard again. These are myths.

你知道，前阵子我们采访了西北大学的研究员伊莱·芬克尔，他提出了一个非常有趣的观点：随着我们对伴侣的期望越来越高，实际能满足这些期望的人越来越少。由于现代人对婚姻的期望比两个世纪前高得多，能达到自我满足或宣称拥有幸福关系的人反而更少了。但那些真正能达到标准、愿意花时间精力经营关系的人，可能比两个世纪前的人拥有更幸福的婚姻。不过这也意味着，有太多人觉得自己不够格。

You know, some some time ago, we had the the researcher Eli Finkel from Northwestern University on on hidden brain, and and he was making a very interesting argument. His argument was that as our ex expectations, of our romantic partners have gone higher and higher and higher, fewer of us are actually able to meet expectations. So many of us, because our expectations for marriage have now become so much higher than they were two centuries ago, fewer of us are actually able to reach the level where we are satisfied or we say that we're in a happy relationship. But for those of us who actually are able to meet that standard, who are actually able to put in the time and the effort to cultivate great relationships, they're probably having much happier marriages than people two centuries ago. But it also means that there are many, many people who feel like they're falling short.

我不得不再次联想到使命感的相似性。如果你有幸实现使命，从事有意义、能改变世界的工作，那你显然比人类历史上绝大多数有工作的人都幸福。但如果所有人都以这个极高标准为目标，我们中很多人都会失望。

And again, I can't help but see the parallels here with having a calling. If you have a calling, you happen to be lucky enough to achieve that calling, you're doing work that's meaningful, you're doing work that transforms the world. I mean, you're clearly happier than almost everyone in human history who's ever had a job. But if everyone aspires to that very, very high standard, lots of us are going to be disappointed.

没错，这个类比非常贴切。首先，我认为应该有人研究人们对使命期望与现实感受的具体差异。但同时我们也知道，社会上有太多必须有人做却不太可能让人感到使命感的工作。那么那些无法自由选择工作、无法在拥有合理自主权的领域工作的人该怎么办？

Yeah, that is a perfect parallel. So first, I think someone should do that study about exactly how do people feel about the expectation of the calling versus the reality. I want to see that type of study. But I also think that's right because we know that there are so many jobs that need doing that are unlikely to feel like people's callings. And so where does that leave people who are left out of this ability to, you know, choose work freely, work in areas that have a reasonable enough degree of autonomy that there's something that they can tap into.

我认为这种现象会以极其相似的方式呈现。

I think that phenomenon will absolutely play out in a very similar way.

不得不说，这次谈话让我很矛盾。我既希望世界上有居里夫人和乔布斯这样的人，但也看到这种专注带来的巨大代价。做完这些研究和思考后，珍，你的结论是什么？使命感是好事吗？

I have to say that I feel torn here after this conversation because I think I want to live in a world that has Marie Curie's and Steve Jobs's, but I can also see the great costs that come from being so single-minded. After doing all this research and thinking, where do you come down, Jen? Are callings a good thing?

是的。我想说的是，人们绝对不应该从事那些感觉毫无意义、枯燥乏味的工作，那些你认为不仅没有让世界变得更美好，反而可能让世界变得更糟的工作。这是我不希望任何人承受的命运。因此，我最大的希望是，我们作为一个社会能够找到方法，提供那些能让人们感受到工作有意义、值得尊重并维护人性尊严的岗位。我也想补充说明，我并不认为将工作视为强烈使命是获得美好生活或充实人生的唯一或最佳途径。

Yeah. So what I like to say is absolutely people should not be doing work that feels meaningless, that is drudgery and that you believe is not just not making the world a better place, but might actually be making the world a worse place. That's a fate I wouldn't want for anyone. So, you know, my great hope would be that we as a society figure out how to offer jobs that provide a path to a sense that the work is meaningful and worthy of respect and human dignity. I do also want to say I don't think that feeling that work is a strong calling is the only path or the best path to feeling that you have a good life or a meaningful life.

有很多人在工作之外找到了生活的意义。某种程度上，这就像你之前说的——如果你足够幸运找到热爱的工作，那很棒。但对于那些尚未找到、或可能永远找不到的人，请不要绝望。这并非个人或道德上的失败，尽管我们有时会这么认为。

So there are lots of people who find the meaning in their life outside of the meaning of their work. So in some ways, it's sort of like what you had said. If you're lucky enough to find work that you love doing, that's great. But I think for those who haven't yet found it, or maybe will never find it, don't despair. That's not a personal or moral failing as we sometimes make it seem.

我们有很多方式可以感受到自己在产生影响和贡献，这不一定非要通过工作，或主要依靠工作。生活中许多赋予我们意义的事物与工作毫无关系。

And there are so many ways that we can feel like we're making a difference and a contribution. It doesn't only need to be through our work or primarily through our work. And there are lots of things that give our lives meaning that have nothing to do with work.

詹妮弗·托斯特·卡鲁斯与哲学家克里斯托弗·王·米克尔森是《你的工作值得吗？如何思考有意义的工作》一书的作者。在Hidden Brain Plus的配套故事中，我们将探讨——无论是有职业使命感的人、没有的人、渴望拥有的人还是无所谓的人——如何从工作中获得更多意义与满足感。我们将探索能改变你与工作、同事及职业关系的心理技巧。如果您是Hidden Brain订阅用户，该集节目现已上线。

Jennifer Toste Carus and philosopher Christopher Wong Mikkelsen are the authors of the book Is Your Work Worth It? How to Think About Meaningful Work. In our companion story on Hidden Brain plus we'll look at how all of us people who have a calling and people who don't people who want a calling and people who don't can derive greater meaning and satisfaction from our work. We'll explore psychological techniques that can change your relationship to your job, your coworkers, and your profession. If you're a subscriber to Hidden Brain, that episode should be available in your feed right now.

这期节目名为《如何让工作有意义》。若您尚未订阅，现在正是体验Hidden Brain Plus的好时机——整个九月期间，通过Apple Podcasts订阅的听众可享受延长至30天的免费试用。要获取试用资格，请在Apple Podcasts找到HiddenBrain并点击'免费试用'按钮，或访问apple.co/hiddenbrain。您的支持帮助我们让基于研究的见解在全球范围内更易获取、更具相关性和吸引力。

It's titled How to Make Work Meaningful. If you're not a subscriber, this is a great time to check out Hidden Brain plus All through the month of September, listeners who subscribe on Apple Podcasts will get access to an extended thirty day free trial. To access that thirty day trial, find Hidden Brain on Apple Podcasts and click the Try Free button. Or go to apple.co/hiddenbrain. Your support helps us make research based insights accessible, relevant, and engaging to a broad audience around the world.

再次提醒，网址是apple.co/hiddenbrain。珍，非常感谢你今天做客Hidden Brain。

Again, that site is apple.co/hiddenbrain. Jen, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

非常感谢你，尚卡尔。这次交流非常愉快。

Thank you so much, Shankar. It was a true pleasure.

您是否有后续问题或故事想与詹妮弗·托斯蒂卡里斯分享？是否找到了让你每天清晨充满动力的天职？或是对天职概念持怀疑态度？又或者想了解如何让工作更有意义？如果您愿意将问题、故事和评论分享给《隐藏的大脑》听众，请用手机录制语音备忘录并发送至ideashiddenbrain.org。

Do you have follow-up questions or stories that you'd like to share with Jennifer Tostikaris? Have you found a calling that gets you up in the morning each day? Are you a skeptic of callings? Or do you have questions about how to make work more meaningful? If you'd be willing to share your questions, stories, and comments with the Hidden Brain audience, please record a voice memo on your phone and email it to us at ideashiddenbrain dot org.

邮件主题请注明“天职”。再次提醒邮箱地址是ideashiddenbrain.org。在十周年特别节目中，我要感谢几位幕后英雄：卡拉·麦格克·艾莉森为节目创立发挥了核心作用，玛吉·彭曼是我们的首批制作人之一，詹娜·韦斯伯曼协助制作了多期试播集。

Use the subject line Calling. That email address again is ideashiddenbrain dot org. I'd like to call out some unsung heroes on this tenth anniversary show. Kara McGurk Allison played a central role in getting the show started, and Maggie Penman was one of our first producers. Jenna Weisberman helped build several pilot episodes.

还有许多其他贡献者：林内特·克莱门森和安雅·格伦德曼提供了大量指导，劳伦·恩布里、保罗·黑格、保罗·金斯伯格和卡米拉·史密斯提供了初期启动资金。我们对此深表感激。《隐藏的大脑》由Hidden Brain Media制作。

Lots of others helped as well. Lynette Clementson and Anya Grundman provided a lot of guidance. And Lauren Embry, Paul Hager, Paul Ginsberg, and Camilla Smith provided some of the initial seed funding. We're so grateful to all of them. Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media.

音频制作团队包括安妮·墨菲·保罗、克里斯汀·王、劳拉·奎罗尔、瑞恩·卡茨、奥顿·巴恩斯、安德鲁·查德威克和尼克·伍德伯里。塔拉·博伊尔担任执行制片人，我是《隐藏的大脑》执行主编。下周节目将开启新系列——一个几乎所有人都在乎的主题。

Our audio production team includes Annie Murphy Paul, Kristen Wong, Laura Quirrell, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, Andrew Chadwick, and Nick Woodbury. Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor. Next week on the show, we're going to kick off a new series. It's a topic that almost everyone cares about.

这个主题曾激发无数伟大歌曲、诗歌和小说创作，那就是爱情。接下来几周我们将探讨：当热恋初期的激情消退后，如何与伴侣共同面对日常生活的挑战。

A topic that has inspired great songs and poems and works of fiction. That topic is love. Over the next few weeks, we'll talk about what happens when the heady first phase of infatuation is done and the harder work of navigating the day to day with your partner begins.

（笑着说）我们当时玩得很开心，互相开玩笑，但突然发生了些状况。我本想继续用玩笑带过，以为事情会自然化解...可事实证明，这种方式通常行不通。

So, oh, we're having a good time. We're feeling jokey with each other, and something happened. But maybe I can just, like, keep going with the playfulness, and and it'll just wash away. And it you know, that just, as it turns out, doesn't usually work.

这就是下周开播的《爱情2.0》。期待您的收听。我是尚卡尔·韦丹塔姆，我们很快再见。

That's Love two point o starting next week. I hope you'll join us. I'm Shankar Vedantam. See you soon.