你2.0：停止恶性循环！

但我无法做到，因为我对自己的感受一无所知。

But I was unable to do that because I was unaware of my own feelings.

而且我也不知道这些感受有多么正常。

And I was unaware of how normal those feelings were.

所以，我就干脆逃开了。

So so then I just kind of fled.

你知道，这里引人注目的是，当你看到这家汉堡摊前排着长长的队伍时，这完全是无害的。

You know, what's what's striking here is that as you saw this long line of people at this burger truck, I mean, this is completely innocuous.

显然，排队的人并没有试图把你排除在学校之外。

Obviously, the people standing in line are not trying to exclude you from the school.

他们根本没在想你。

They're not thinking of you.

他们甚至根本没意识到你就在那里。

They're not even aware that you are you are there.

你却把这一切都解读为：前面排着长长的队伍，而你却不知道为什么会有这么长的队伍在摊位前。

You are reading all of this into the fact that there's this long line of people, and you don't know why there's this long line of people in front of the truck.

正如你所指出的，这个微小的事实被放大了，因为它触动了你内心的疑虑和不安全感。

And as you point out, the tiny fact is magnified because it's tapping into your underlying doubts and insecurities.

因此，在某种程度上，我们收集了大量这类微小的事实，然后将它们编织成更大的故事。

And so in some ways, we are gathering a bunch of these tiny facts and then weave them into these larger stories.

所以，也许有一天，是没人邀请我去In N Out汉堡摊。

So perhaps one day, it's, you know, nobody's inviting me to the In N Out burger truck.

第二天，又变成了别的事情。

The next day, it's something else.

心理学家有时称之为心理钙化。

Psychologists sometimes call this mental calcification.

这个观点是什么意思，格雷格？

What does this idea mean, Greg?

是的。

Yeah.

这就像是你从一个问题演变为一种信念，再几乎变成一种公理。

So it's like when you go from a question to a belief to an almost axiom.

所以这涉及到归属感的问题。

So there's a question of belonging.

比如，我会在这里有归属感吗？

Like, am I gonna belong here?

别人会喜欢像我这样的人在这里吗？

Will people like me belong here?

我会融入这些来自不同背景的人吗？这种想法会演变成一种根深蒂固的信念吗？

Will I fit in with these people who are from this different background to a a belief that I don't to the kind of axiomatic version of that belief?

这不仅仅是心理上的僵化。

And it's not just a mental calcification.

它还体现在行为和人际关系模式的固化上。

It's a calcification in behavior and in patterns of relationships.

所以，如果你不参与In N Out汉堡车的活动，又没有积极的互动，当你把这种现象放大到大学生活的各个层面时，我就无法与同龄人建立积极的社会互动。

So, you know, if if I don't engage with the in and out truck, and then I don't have a positive interaction, if you magnify that across all the different spaces, for example of a college experience, I'm not having positive social interactions with peers.

我无法与教授建立积极的社会互动。

I'm not having positive social interactions with professors.

我没有参与那些最终每个人在学业中获得良好体验和成长所必需的关系。

I'm not I'm not engaging in the kinds of relationships that ultimately everybody needs to have a good experience in school and and to grow in school.

如果你去约会，但约会不顺利，你就觉得自己不可爱，然后带着这种心态去下一次约会，结果下一次也糟透了。

If you have a date and the date doesn't go well and you think, I'm not lovable, and then you take that mindset to your next date, and the next date goes terrible.

你建立了一种关系模式，一种与他人互动的固定模式。

Like, you've built a pattern of relationships, a pattern of interactions with other people that that gets fixed.

几乎就像我有时会用陶器和黏土来做个类比。

Almost like there's almost a sometimes I think about it with an analogy with pottery, like with clay.

黏土在早期是非常柔软可塑的。

Clay is very malleable.

在早期，它非常容易塑形。

It's very malleable early on.

你可以把它塑造成这样。

You can shape it this way.

你可以把它塑造成那样。

You can shape it that way.

但当你烧制它时，它就定型了，变得难以改变。

But when you fire it, it gets fixed, and it gets harder to change.

你觉得我们为什么从这么小的事实中做出如此多的推断，格雷格？

Why do you think we extrapolate so much from small facts, Greg?

为什么我们会遇到这些小事呢？

Why is it that we have these small things happen to us?

我们过去知道，也从周围人的生活中知道。

And we know in the past, and we know from the lives of the people around us.

我们知道当他们夸大其词时。

We know when they exaggerate.

我们知道当我们的朋友或伴侣因为一些微不足道的小事而情绪失控时，我们能看出来他们是在过度解读某个细微的细节。

We know when our friends or partners, when they basically you know, they dive off the deep end over something trivial, and we can see that they're they're they're over interpreting some tiny detail.

但要看出自己也有这种倾向，就要困难得多。

It's much harder for us to see this in ourselves.

你觉得这是为什么？

Why do you think that is?

我的意思是，我们并不会过度解读很多小事实。

I mean, there's lots of small facts that we don't over interpret.

但我们确实会过度解读的那些，往往是触及个人存在性问题的。

But the ones that we do over interpret are the ones that are probing kind of existential questions for a person.

比如，我能融入大学吗？

Like, can I belong in college?

或者你数学考试没考好，就觉得自己数学很差？

Or can I build like, you you fail a math test and you think I'm a I'm dumb at math?

我永远无法实现上医学院的目标。

I'll never be able to pursue my goal of going to medical school.

这些都属于存在性问题。

Like these are existential questions.

它们决定了你的人生轨迹。

They define the course of your life.

比如你能否成为并做到你想成为和想做的那个人。

Like whether you're gonna be able to be and do who you wanna be and do.

所以当我们真正专注、真正留意的时候，就是这个时候。

And so then that's when we're really attuned, when we're really paying attention.

那时，小事似乎也变得意义重大。

That's when the small things seem to mean a lot.

我记得上中学或高中时，我的数学成绩很差。

I remember when I was in middle school or high school, I was doing badly at math.

在几次考试考得不好之后，下次数学考试遇到一道难题时，我心里立刻想：当然了，你肯定解不出这道题。

And after a couple of tests where I did badly, the moment I encountered a problem that was difficult on the next math test, my mind said, well, of course, you're not gonna be able to solve this problem.

你数学不好。

You're not good at math.

在某些方面，这和你刚才描述的模式完全一样。

And in some ways, it's exactly the same pattern that you're just describing.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

但值得注意的是，关于智力的固定型思维观念实际上是在我们的文化中被传授的。

But it's worth noting that things like fixed mindset ideas about intelligence are literally taught in our culture.

比如，关于‘智力’这种特质存在一段完整的历史，一段完整社会文化历史，认为智力在不同人、不同群体之间差异巨大，可以通过简短的测试来评估，并能决定一个人的人生轨迹。

Like there there's a whole history, a whole sociocultural history of how the idea that there's this quality called intelligence, that it differs very widely between different people, between different groups, that it can be assessed with short tests, that it can be determinative of a person's life course.

这种观念在西方文化中根深蒂固。

Like this idea is deeply rooted within Western culture.

它体现在许多制度性实践和人际互动中，比如表扬：‘你真聪明。’

It's reflected in many institutional practices and many interpersonal practices like praise, like, oh, you're so smart.

而这种做法会让人陷入你所描述的那种思维模式：当你遇到挑战或困难时，你不会想‘我还没掌握这个，也许我需要换个方法来理解它，或者我还能怎么入手？’

And what that does is it sets people up for the kind of thought process that you're describing where when you encounter some challenge, when you encounter some difficulty, you don't think, oh, like I haven't got this yet or maybe I need a different tact into this to understand this, or how else can I approach this?

相反，你会想：‘我的大脑就是不擅长这个。’

Instead, you think, I just my mind doesn't work that way.

我做不到这件事，于是就放弃了。

I'm not able to do this, and you check out.

所以，从某种层面来说，你可以称之为自我破坏，但某种程度上，这其实更令人难过，因为这个人并不是有意在破坏自己。

So at one level, you can call this self sabotage, but in some ways, it's actually sadder than that because the person is not trying to sabotage themselves.

他们实际上是在努力融入。

They're trying, in fact, to fit in.

他们希望融入。

They want to fit in.

他们希望在数学上表现良好。

They want to do well at math.

他们希望成为一个好父母。

They want to be a good parent.

他们希望保持健康。

They want to be healthy.

但在某些方面，他们的思维正在破坏他们想要实现的目标。

But in some ways, their minds are undermining what they want to do.

是的。

Yeah.

他们的思维正在破坏他们想要实现的目标，而且这种破坏往往以一种看似合理的方式发生，这种合理性源自社会环境本身。

Their minds are undermining what they want to do, And the and they're doing so often in a very reasonable way that comes from the social context itself.

所以，在独木舟的故事里，独木舟租赁商说，大多数人会意外落水。

So like in the canoe story, the canoe outfitter said, most people take an unplanned dip.

这实际上就写在他们的宣传材料上。

Like that was actually like on their materials.

对吧？

Right?

你有一个参加天才项目的学生，一个从小被夸聪明的学生，然后他们遇到了数学上的挫折。

You have a student who goes to gifted and talented programs, a student who's praised their whole life that they're so smart, and then they have your experience in math.

他们升到七年级、八年级、十二年级，不管是什么阶段，都会遇到一些有挑战性的东西。

They get to seventh grade, they get to eighth grade, they get to twelfth grade, whatever it is, and they encounter something that's challenging.

于是他们想，也许我并没有那种做这件事所必需的神奇天赋。

And they think, oh, maybe I don't have that magic ingredient that seems to be necessary for somebody to do this.

这种观念是被灌输给人们的。

Like that idea was taught to people.

或者如果你考虑大学里的归属感，这个国家在历史上确实存在过对种族、民族和社会阶层的高等教育排斥。

Or if you wanna think about belonging in college, like there is a very literal history of racial, ethnic, and social class exclusion from higher education in this country.

因此，如果你是非裔美国学生、拉丁裔学生、第一代大学生，或者是一名进入男性主导的工程领域的女性，你很自然地会问：像我这样的人在这里能有归属感吗？

And so if you're an African American student, you're a Latina student, you're a first generation college student, or you're a woman going into a male dominated engineering field, for example, it's very reasonable for you to ask, can people like me belong here?

这确实是来自环境的直接反映。

That's literally coming from the context.

因此，大脑在某种程度上对此进行调节，并产生了这样的结果。

So the mind is kind of mediating this, and it's kind of producing this consequence.

但这些环境是真实存在的，有其现实基础。

But it's coming from context that have a reality to them.

有时，一系列负面事件仅仅是一种巧合。

Sometimes a series of negative events is simply a coincidence.

运气不好。

Bad luck.

但当不愉快的经历演变成一股消极的漩涡时，这可能是因为我们应对压力和挫折的方式中存在根深蒂固的无意识思维模式。

But when unpleasant experiences cascade into a whirlpool of negativity, it might be because of unconscious thought patterns that are deeply rooted in how we respond to stress and setback.

好消息是，有办法打断这些循环。

The good news is there are ways to interrupt these cycles.

当我们回来时，聊聊如何在负面情绪失控前阻止它。

When we come back, how to stop a downward spiral before it takes over your life.

您正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You are listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I am Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

你有没有经历过陷入负面螺旋，一件坏事接着一件坏事的情况？

Have you had the experience of being stuck in a downward spiral where one bad thing led to the next?

你有没有找到方法从负面循环中走出来？

Have you found ways to pull yourself out of a negative spiral?

如果你有故事、问题或想与《隐藏的思维》听众分享的评论，请用手机录一段语音备忘录，发送到 feedbackhiddenbrain dot org。

If you have a story, a question, or a comment that you would like to share with the Hidden Brain audience, please record a voice memo on your phone and email it to us at feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

请使用主题行‘失败’。

Use the subject line Failure.

再次提醒，邮箱是 feedbackhiddenbrain dot org。

Again, that's feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

在生活中，我们常常在不知不觉中走错了路。

Often in life, we take a wrong turn without realizing it.

很容易继续沿着这条路走下去，最终陷入挣扎、自我怀疑和社会孤立的循环中。

It's easy to keep walking that path and find ourselves lost in cycles of struggle, self doubt, and social isolation.

心理学家格雷格·沃尔顿是《平凡的魔法：通过微小行动实现巨大改变的科学》一书的作者。

Psychologist Greg Walton is the author of Ordinary Magic, the science of how we can achieve big change with small acts.

他多年来一直研究在关键时刻的明智干预如何帮助我们避免陷入负面螺旋。

He has spent many years studying how wise interventions at crucial moments can keep us from spiraling downward.

格雷格，我们之前谈过归属感不确定性，以及它如何让我们做出消极的推断，从而印证我们的恐惧。

Greg, we talked earlier about belonging uncertainty and how it can lead us to jump to negative conclusions that can confirm our fears.

你的一项研究一直是我最喜爱的之一，它探讨了针对少数族裔大学生的归属感干预。

One of your studies that has long been a favorite of mine looked at a social belonging intervention among college students who are members of a minority group.

你能描述一下你试图解决的挑战以及你设计的干预措施吗？

Can you describe the challenge that you were trying to address and the intervention that you designed?

当然可以。

Sure.

这些学生是非裔美国人，就读于一所以白人为主的精英大学。

So these were African American students attending a predominantly white selective university.

我们为学生设计了一种体验，分享了来自不同背景的高年级学生关于大学生活经历的故事，以及他们在适应过程中产生的归属感焦虑。

And what we did was to create an experience for the students where we shared stories from a diversity of older students about the experience of going to college and the worries about belonging that come up in that experience.

这些故事来自白人学生、亚裔学生、非裔美国学生和拉美裔学生。

So there were stories from white students and Asian students and African American students and Latino students.

其中讲述了学业上的困难，以及感觉自己在学业上落后的经历。

There were stories of academic struggles and feeling like you were behind academically.

还有被排除在社交活动之外的故事。

There were stories of being excluded from social events.

也有朋友很多，但却没有真正亲密朋友的经历。

There were stories of having lots of friends, but then maybe not having the close friends that you really want.

我们告诉这些刚上大学的第一年学生，他们是适应大学生活的专家。

And we told the participating students who were in the first year of going to college that they were experts in the transition to college.

我们想知道他们对为什么新生常会担心归属感，以及这种担忧如何随时间改善的看法。

And we wanted to know their thoughts about why belonging worries are common as students come to college and how they can get better with time.

我们希望将他们的建议分享给未来的新生，让未来的学生能从他们的经验中学习。

And we wanted to share their advice with future students so that future students could learn from them.

于是，我们先给学生看了这些故事，然后给他们充足的空间讲述自己的经历，解释为什么归属感的担忧是正常的，他们是如何体验这些担忧的，以及这些担忧如何随时间变化。

And so we gave students the stories, then we gave them lots of space to tell their own story, to describe why these worries about belonging are normal, how they've experienced them, how they've changed over time.

所有这些的最终目的是，当学生面对日常挑战时——比如被排除在社交活动之外、只是过了一天糟糕的日子、或者考试成绩不理想——他们能够对自己说：这真不幸。

And the whole the point of all of this was that the goal was that then when students experience those day to day challenges, when you got excluded from a social event, when you just had a bad day, when maybe you got a disappointing mark on a test, that you would be able to say, that was unfortunate.

这确实是个问题。

That was problematic.

我不喜欢这样。

I didn't I didn't love that.

但这并不意味着我在学校里整体上不属于这里。

But it doesn't have to mean I don't belong in general in school.

这并不意味着像我这样的人在学校的整体环境中就不属于这里。

It doesn't have to mean that people like me don't belong in general in school.

这就是你上大学时会经历的事情。

That's the kind of thing that you go through as you as you go to college.

所以，某种程度上，通过让学生扮演顾问的角色——他们实际上是在向未来的大学生提供建议，告诉他们：‘我在大学新生阶段的头几个月也经历过这些挫折，但后来发现这些只是暂时的。’

So in some ways, by putting the students in the role of advisers, where they're basically potentially advising future students who come to the college, and they're basically saying, look, you know, I experienced these setbacks in my first few months of being a a freshman in college, but it turned out that they were transient.

你实际上是在帮助学生自己认识到，许多这样的挫折其实是暂时的，他们不应该从少量的数据中得出过于笼统的结论。

What you're doing is you're helping the students themselves see that many of these setbacks, in fact, are transient, that they should not be drawing sweeping conclusions from from small amounts of data.

是的。

Yeah.

比如，我上大学时经历了那种时好时坏的感觉，感到想家，根本没想到来自尔湾的那个孩子也可能在担心自己是否属于这里。

Like, when I went to college and I had the in and out experience and I felt homesick, I had no idea that maybe the kid from Irvine too might be worried about their belonging.

我当时完全陷在自己的情绪里了。

Like, I was just all caught up in my head.

而整个大学适应过程都围绕着上大学的兴奋感展开。

And the whole process of the transition to college was all about the excitement of going to college.

这全是关于大学的机会。

It was all about the opportunities of college.

这全是关于这所机构有多么了不起。

It was all about what an awesome institution it was.

没有人考虑到，这其实是我们现代的成年仪式，你会经历思乡之情。

There was no allowance for the fact that this is kind of our modern coming of age ritual, That you would have experiences of homesickness.

你会有感觉不好的时候。

That you would have times that you don't feel so great.

你会有感觉不那么有归属感的时候。

You would have times where you don't feel so connected.

没有人承认，这些都是正常的，是可以接受的，并且会随着时间变好。

There was no allowance that that was normal and that was okay and that that could get better over time.

非常重要的是要谈论这一点，要明确表达出来，并用多种方式、由不同的人反复传达。

And it's really important to talk about that and to to say that and to say that in lots of different ways and have lots of different people say that.

这样，当每个人经历自己这段个人旅程时，都知道这是正常的，是过程的一部分，并且能够克服它。

So that everybody knows when they're going through their own personal journey of that process, that they know that that's normal, and that's part of the process, and that they can work through that.

他们不会让它变成一点小问题。

That they don't it doesn't become a tiff bit.

格雷格，这种干预对学生有什么影响？

What was the effect on the students of this intervention, Greg?

首先，我们查看了他们在接下来一周的每日日记回复。

Well, the first thing we did is we looked at their daily diary responses over the next week.

我们每天问他们发生了什么好事或坏事。

We asked them every day what good or bad things happened to them.

我们也问他们觉得自己在学校有多归属感。

And we also asked them how much they felt like they belonged in school.

我们发现，这种干预并没有改变学生日常经历的类型，但它阻止了糟糕的日子被赋予负面意义。

And what we found is that the intervention didn't change the kinds of daily experiences that students had, but it prevented bad days from having bad meaning.

因此，在经历了归属感干预后，非裔美国学生即使在一周中最糟糕的一天，仍能保持归属感。

So when African American students had a a worst day over the course of a week with the belonging intervention, they maintained a sense of belonging.

他们在那段时间内的归属感并没有下降。

Their sense of belonging didn't drop over that period.

然后我们发现这转化为行为上的改变。

And then we found that it translated into behavior.

他们给教授发邮件的次数更多了，去办公室时间也更频繁了。

They were emailing professors more, going to office hours more.

他们每晚实际上学习的时间更长了。

They are actually studying more every night.

然后我们发现这影响了他们的成绩。

And then we found that it shifted their grades.

他们的成绩随着时间推移有所提高。

So their grades got better over time.

我们追踪了学生直到大学毕业的成绩，发现这项干预在三年内将黑人与白人学生的成绩差距缩小了50%。

We track students grades through the end of college and found that the intervention actually reduced the black white achievement gap by 50% over that three year period.

效果在大四时最为显著，成绩差距减少了80%。

And the effect was largest senior year where there is a reduction of 80%.

此外，还产生了许多其他重要的长期影响。

And then there were lots of downstream outcomes that were important.

人们更快乐了。

People were happier.

他们更健康了。

They were healthier.

他们去看医生的次数更少了。

They're going to the doctor less.

甚至在成年后的平均年龄27岁时，也出现了诸多益处。

And there were benefits that emerged even in adult life at the average age of 27.

人们报告称生活满意度更高，职业成就更突出。

People reported higher levels of life satisfaction, higher levels of career success.

他们还报告称在社交网络和重要关系中更加融入。

And they reported greater embeddedness in social networks and important relationships.

比如他们更有可能拥有导师。

Like they were more likely to have mentors.

这些导师在一段时间内支持了这些改变。

And those mentors had supported those changes over time.

这就是我们所说的良性循环。

That's what we call an upward spiral.

所以这一切始于心理学。

So it started with the psychology.

你如何理解这个小小的日常事件？

How do you make sense of this this little daily event?

然后它转化为一种行为。

It then transfers into a behavior.

好的。

Okay.

那个事件很糟糕，但这并不意味着我一般就不属于这里。

That event was bad, but it doesn't mean I have to I don't belong here in general.

我要去加入另一个社团。

I'm gonna go join a different club.

我要再去和那位教授谈谈。

I'm gonna go talk to that professor again.

然后你会建立起一种关系，逐渐融入一个社群，并在社群中建立联系，这变得至关重要。

And then you have a relationship where you start to have a community and you have a relationship in the community and that becomes really consequential.

所以还有一种你称之为重构的明智干预方式。

So there's another kind of wise intervention that you call reframing.

你曾经给女儿露西读过一个叫《缅因州的一个早晨》的故事。

And there's a story you used to read to your daughter Lucy called One Morning in Maine.

请告诉我《缅因州的一个早晨》的情节，以及它如何与重构这一理念相关联。

Tell me the plot of One Morning in Maine and how it relates to this idea of reframing.

是的。

Yeah.

《缅因州的一个早晨》是罗伯特·麦克洛斯基的经典故事。

One Morning in Maine is the classic story from Robert McCloskey.

这是一个关于小女孩萨尔的故事。

And it's a story of Sal, who's a young child.

她非常渴望和父亲一起去巴克斯港度过一整天。

And she is very eager to go with her father to Bucks Harbor for the day.

但她醒来时发现牙齿松动了。

But she wakes up with a loose tooth.

于是她向妈妈哭喊：妈妈，妈妈，妈妈，我有一颗松动的牙齿。

And so she wails to her mama, mama, mama, I have a loose tooth.

我有一颗松动的牙齿。

I have a loose tooth.

我不能和爸爸去巴克斯港了。

I'm not gonna be able to go to Bucks Harbor with daddy.

于是她的妈妈重新诠释了这件事。

And her mother then reframes it.

她说：哦，当你有一颗松动的牙齿时，就意味着你已经是个大女孩了。

She says, oh when you have a loose tooth, that's when you've become a big girl.

这本书的前半部分，或者大约三分之二的内容，都在讲述萨尔如何琢磨这个想法。

And the whole first half of the book or maybe two thirds of the book is about Sal kind of playing with that idea.

于是她问妈妈：妈妈，你小时候也有过松动的牙齿吗？

So she thinks she asks her mother, did you did you have a loose tooth when you were a little girl?

她妈妈说，是的。

And her mother says yes.

她问，妹妹简的牙齿，或者她的牙齿，也会松动吗？

She asks, does baby sisters, Jane's, or her or her tooth, will she have loose teeth too?

她妈妈说，还要很久才会松。

And her mother says, not for a long time.

她现在还是个小宝宝。

She's still a baby now.

然后她去海滩散步，想着鸟儿有没有松动的牙齿，海豹有没有松动的牙齿。

And then she goes to walk on the beach and she wonders whether whether the birds have loose teeth, whether the seal has loose teeth.

她走到正在挖蛤蜊的父亲身边。

And she gets to her father who's digging clams.

她宣布：我有一颗松动的牙齿。

And she proclaims, I have a loose tooth.

我正在长大。

I'm becoming a big girl.

她的父亲认同了对这一事件的这种解读。

And her father affirms that interpretation of the event.

然后，故事的结局是去巴克斯港，和父亲度过美好的一天。

And then the in a sense, the denouement of the story is going to Bucks Harbor and having a great day with her father.

有一天早上上学前，你女儿露西扭伤了脚踝，她哭喊着不想去学校。

So one morning before school, your daughter Lucy sprained her ankle, and she was wailing and didn't want to go to school.

我知道你在试图重新看待这种情况时，想到了缅因州的那一天吗？

I understand that you thought of one morning in Maine as you tried to reframe the situation?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我们跟她说，每个人都会扭伤脚踝，这不会造成永久性残疾。

I mean, we we said everybody gets a a sprained ankle, and it's not gonna be a permanent disability.

这绝对不是不去上学的理由。

And it's definitely not a reason not to go to school.

我给她讲了我自己扭伤脚踝的故事。

I told her stories of my own sprained ankles.

我妻子丽莎讲了她自己扭伤脚踝的故事。

My wife, Lisa, told stories of her sprained ankles.

我们帮助她明白，这是正常的。

And we helped her to see that it was normal.

这是作为人类的一部分，并不一定意味着什么大事。

It was part of being human, and it didn't have to mean anything big.

这并不意味着你不能参与那些你想要参与的活动和场合。

It didn't have to mean that you couldn't engage in the activities and participate in the spaces that you wanna participate in.

所以某种程度上，这其实是在让人们重新思考：他们所经历的挫折可能只是挫折，而不是灾难。

So in some ways, think what this is doing is it's asking people to reconsider the possibility that the setbacks that they are experiencing are just setbacks and not catastrophes.

是的。

Yeah.

所以一直以来，我认为我们都会面临这些挑战。

So all the time, I think that we have these challenges that we face.

当你心中有疑问时，这些挑战就可能变成灾难。

And when you're when and and when we have a question that's on our mind, those challenges can can become catastrophes.

所以你正在为照顾婴儿而挣扎。

So you're struggling with a baby.

你的宝宝有肠绞痛。

Your baby is colicky.

你不禁怀疑：我会是个好父母吗？

And you're wondering, am I gonna be a good parent?

你发现，你对这个肠绞痛宝宝做的每件事似乎都没用。

And it seems like everything you do with this colicky baby is not helpful.

甚至可能让他们哭得更厉害。

Maybe makes them cry even more.

这让你内心更加确信：你可能是个糟糕的父母。

And it seems to confirm in your mind this fear that you might be a bad parent.

这种恐惧和孩子心里想‘也许我是个坏孩子’一样有害。

And that fear is just as toxic as the thought, like, maybe I'm a bad kid is to a kid.

你提到的另一个明智的干预方法是表达情绪的力量。

One of the other wise interventions you talk about is the power of surfacing emotions.

我理解你曾经带着儿子奥利弗参观圣何塞的一家博物馆时，有机会实践了这种明智的干预方式。

I understand that you were once visiting a museum in San Jose with your son Oliver when you had an opportunity to demonstrate this wise intervention.

告诉我当时发生了什么。

Tell me the story of what happened.

是的。

Yeah.

那个博物馆是互动科技类的，我们已经逛完了整个展馆。

It was the museum was tech interactive, and we had gone through the whole museum.

那是个很棒的地方。

It's a a great place.

我们刚要离开，但奥利弗还在门口内的一件展品前观看。

And we had just left, but Oliver was looking at an exhibit just inside the doorway.

所以其他人都已经走到了门外。

So the rest of us had just walked outside of the door.

而他仍留在里面看着那件展品，我们在外面等他。

And he was still inside looking at this exhibit and we were waiting for him.

然后他冲了出来，泪水直流，哭得很伤心。

And then he burst out and his the tears were streaming down his face, and he was crying.

我把他抱起来，紧紧拥抱了他。

And I I picked him up and I hugged him.

这时，一个词突然浮现在我脑海中。

And and then I I thought of this word surfacing.

我想试着说出我认为他当时感受到的情绪。

I I thought to just try to say what it was that I thought he was feeling.

于是我问他：‘你是不是害怕被落下？’

So I said, you were scared you'd be left behind.

对吗？

Right?

我能感觉到他点了点头，接着我能感受到他的身体开始放松。

And I could feel him I he nodded and then I could just feel his body start to relax.

这是一种把问题摆上台面的方式，表明：我看到了你的担忧。

It was a way to kinda put the question on the table to say, I see the worry that you have.

这是一个合理的担忧。

It's a reasonable worry.

既然我们都意识到了这一点，我们就可以开始放下了。

And now that we both see it, we can we can start to let it go.

我们之前谈过，消极的循环如何在我们的思维中根深蒂固。

We talked earlier about how negative spirals can become entrenched in our thinking.

我们会对自己产生恐惧，然后有意识地或无意识地寻找能证实这些恐惧的证据。

We develop fears about ourselves and then consciously or maybe unconsciously seek out evidence that confirms those fears.

这些循环最终会变成我们讲给自己听的虚假故事。

These spirals then become false stories that we tell ourselves.

你发现，拥有一个强大的个人叙事可以成为对抗这种模式的有力解药。

You found that having a strong personal narrative can serve as a powerful antidote to this pattern.

你有一个关于你祖母的家庭故事，它赋予了你一种身份认同。

You have a family story involving your grandmother that gives you a sense of identity.

这个故事是什么，格雷格？

What is this story, Greg?

是的。

Yeah.

我奶奶是我父亲的母亲，我和她非常亲近。

My grandmother is someone this is my father's mother who is very close with.

她的名字叫文德拉。

Her name is Vendla.

她在亚利桑那州图森市退休后，写并自费出版了几本书，都是她的人生回忆录，这非常了不起。

And in retirement in Tucson, Arizona, she wrote and self published a couple of books like memoirs of her life, which was quite extraordinary.

她讲述了1922年，她13岁时，和家人从明尼苏达州乘坐T型福特汽车搬到亚利桑那州的故事。

And she tells the story of how when she was 13 years old in 1922, she moved with her family from Minnesota to Arizona in a model t Ford.

他们一路上露营，如何修理爆胎，如何在亚利桑那东部定居，如何融入当地的牧场社区。

How they camped along the way, how they fixed blowouts on the tire, how they homesteaded in Eastern Arizona, how they joined the the ranching community there.

她上了高中，在洛杉矶的一所寄宿学校读书，然后上大学，成为了一名教师。

She went to high school, a boarding school in Los Angeles, and then to college and became a teacher.

她曾在塞多纳及其他亚利桑那州的单间教室学校任教。

How she taught in one room school houses in Sedona and elsewhere in Arizona.

她如何遇见并爱上了我的祖父。

How she met and fell in love with my grandfather.

他们如何在堪萨斯定居，并挺过了大萧条时期的沙尘暴。

How they settled in Kansas and fought through the dust storms of the Great Depression.

这些都是关于力量、主动性和坚韧的故事。

It's stories of of strength and agency and grit.

这些都是关于善良、社区、互助与邻里情谊的故事。

It's stories of goodness and community and support and neighborliness.

而她把这些故事写进了这些回忆录中。

And there are stories that she wrote down in these memoirs.

还有一些故事是她亲自讲给我的。

And then there are also stories that she told to me personally.

还有一些故事是融入环境中的。

And there are stories that are that are, like, built into the environment.

因此，在亚利桑那州那片旧家园土地上，她作为礼物，和我的祖父一起从家族牧场获得了一小块土地。

So in that old homestead land in Arizona, she, as a gift, and my grandfather received a small amount of land from the old family ranch.

他们亲手用泥砖建了一座小屋。

And they hand built a cabin out of adobe.

这间小屋没有电，也没有自来水，但却成为了家庭聚会和团聚的场所。

It's a cabin with no electricity, no running water, but it's become a a place of family retreats and family gatherings.

对我来说，它代表着她所拥有的那种力量、自主性和身份认同。

And to me, it represents that strength and that agency and that identity that she has.

你能谈谈你大学时曾经经历的艰难时光吗？

Can you talk about how you once had a tough time in college?

在感恩节假期，你去图森看望了你的祖母。

And on Thanksgiving break, you went to visit your grandmother in in Tucson.

那年假期发生了什么，格雷格？

What what happened during that holiday, Greg?

是的。

Yeah.

我的大学生活对我来说很混乱。

I mean, college was, you know, discombobulating for me.

感觉离家非常遥远，非常疏离。

It felt very far from home, very detached.

因此，我多次选择不直接回密歇根的家，而是去亚利桑那州，在她的养老院陪她度过一段时间。

And so there were several times I took the chance to instead of going all the way home to Michigan to go to Arizona and spend time with her in her retirement home.

我会睡在她家的折叠沙发床上，而她会给我讲她年轻时的经历，包括她在寄宿学校的日子，还有关于小木屋的故事。

I would sleep on her pull out sofa, and she would tell me stories of her experiences when she was my age, stories from when she was a boarding school student, and stories from the cabin.

这是一种重新连接那些身份的方式。

And it was a rate a way to, you know, reconnect with with those identities.

我能看到她的故事，也能看到她在经历大萧条时所展现出的坚韧与自主。

I could see her story and I could see her agency as she took on the challenges as she lived through the Great Depression.

作为一个年轻人听这些故事时，我不由得用自己的困境来理解它们。

And as a young person hearing those stories, I couldn't help but hear them from the perspective of the challenges that I faced.

想到她是这样挺过来的，我又能怎么做呢？

And to think that's how she did it, how can I do it?

我该怎样才能做到呢？

What's the way that I could do it?

我如何才能坚持不懈？

How can I be persistent?

我如何才能保持善良？

How can I be kind?

我如何才能体现那些家庭价值观？

How can I reflect those values that are family values?

它们不仅仅是她的价值观。

They're not just her values.

它们也不仅仅是我的价值观。

They're not just my values.

它们是我们共同的价值观。

They're our values.

它们代表了我们的身份，以及我们想成为的样子。

They're who we are and who we want to be.

她就是这样做的。

Here's how she did it.

我怎么能做到呢？

How is it that I could do it?

时代已经变了。

Times have changed.

我们不再需要像以前那样，费劲地安排复杂的火车票来从堪萨斯前往东海岸了。

We're not building, you know, complicated train ticket arrangements to get from Kansas to the East Coast anymore.

我们现在有飞机了。

We we have airplanes.

我们有了不同的条件和资源。

We have different affordances.

但引导我们的价值观是什么？我们该如何用这些价值观来指引今天的生活？

But what are the values that are guiding us and how can we use those to navigate our lives today?

除了今天我们讨论的技巧之外，还有一套情感工具，能够对帮助陷入困境的人产生深远影响。

In addition to the techniques we've discussed today, there's a set of emotional tools that can make a profound difference in helping someone who's spiraling.

我们在《隐藏大脑Plus》的专属配套节目中，与格雷格探讨了这些工具。

We talk with Greg about these tools in our companion episode exclusively on Hidden Brain Plus.

如果你是父母、老师，或者有朋友或伴侣陷入消极思维的漩涡，你一定想看看这一期。

If you're a parent or a teacher or perhaps have a friend or partner caught in a negative thought spiral, you'll definitely want to check it out.

如果你已经是Hidden Brain Plus的订阅用户，这一期现在就可以在这个播客频道中收听。

If you're already a subscriber to Hidden Brain Plus, that episode is available right now in this podcast feed.

这一期的标题是《最好的你》。

It's titled The Best Version of You.

如果你还没有订阅，请前往support.hiddenbrain.org。

If you're not yet subscribed, please go to support.hiddenbrain.org.

如果你使用的是苹果设备，请访问apple.co/hiddenbrain。

If you're using an Apple device, go to apple.co/hiddenbrain.

在这两个地方都可以享受七天免费试用。

You can get a free seven day trial in both places.

再次提醒，网址是support.hiddenbrain.org或apple.co/hiddenbrain。

Again, that's support.hiddenbrain.org or apple.co/hiddenbrain.

格雷格·沃尔顿是斯坦福大学的心理学家。

Greg Walton is a psychologist at Stanford.

大学。

University.

他是《平凡的魔法：通过微小行动实现巨大改变的科学》一书的作者。

He's the author of Ordinary Magic, the Science of How We Can Achieve Big Change with Small Acts.

格雷格，我多年来一直想请你来参加我们的节目。

Greg, I wanted you to come on the show for many years now.

非常感谢你今天做客《隐藏的思维》。

Thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

非常感谢你， Shankar。

Thank you very much, Shankar.

我真的很感激。

I really appreciate it.

这是一次美妙的对话。

It's been a wonderful conversation.

你有没有过陷入恶性循环的经历，一件坏事接着另一件坏事？

Have you had the experience of being stuck in a downward spiral where one bad thing led to the next?

你有没有找到方法从负面螺旋中走出来？

Have you found ways to pull yourself out of a negative spiral?

如果你有个人故事、问题或评论想与《隐藏大脑》的听众分享，请用手机录制一段语音备忘录并发送至 feedbackhiddenbrain dot org。

If you have a personal story or a question or comment that you would like to share with the Hidden Brain audience, please record a voice memo on your phone and email it to us at feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

请使用主题行‘失败’。

Use the subject line failure.

再次提醒，邮箱是 feedbackhiddenbrain dot org。

Again, that's feedbackhiddenbrain dot org.

我们回来后，解答您的问题。

When we come back, your questions answered.

听众分享了关于善意的感人故事，研究者阿比盖尔·马什将重返节目，回答您关于她对极端利他主义研究的问题。

Listeners share incredible stories of kindness, and researcher Abigail Marsh returns to the show to answer your questions about her work on extreme altruism.

您正在收听《隐藏大脑》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是尚卡尔·维丹塔。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐性思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

很多年前，当我上新闻学院时，我注意到自己和许多同学身上都有一种偏见。

When I went to journalism school many years ago now, I noticed a certain bias in myself and many of my classmates.

我们希望做有冲击力的报道和调查。

We wanted to do hard hitting work, investigations.

我们中的一些人渴望前往战区，从冲突前线发回报道。

Some of us were keen to go to war zones and report from the front lines of conflict.

我们所有人都害怕被派去写所谓的软文。

All of us lived in dread of being relegated to so called puff pieces.

很多故事都落入了软文的炼狱。

A lot of stories fell into Puff Peace purgatory.

关于可爱动物的故事。

Stories about cute animals.

关于无关紧要的本地事件的故事。

Stories about insignificant local events.

关于善人和圆满结局的故事。

Stories featuring do gooders and happy endings.

正是这一类故事将成为今天节目余下部分的重点。

It's this last category that will be the focus of the rest of today's show.

自从上了新闻学院后，我学到的一件事是，善人和圆满结局实际上能构成精彩的故事。

One thing I've learned since going to journalism school is that do gooders and happy endings actually make for great stories.

极其善良和慷慨的人，事实上可以和极其恶劣的人一样引人入胜。

People who are extremely kind and generous can in fact be as fascinating as people who are extremely bad.

在如今新闻大多令人不安的时代，这些故事提醒我们，善良与正直也处处可见。

And in a time when so much of the news is disturbing, these stories remind us that kindness and decency are also to be found everywhere.

我们最近与阿比盖尔·马什讨论了那些行走于我们中间的英雄。

We talked about the heroes who walk amongst us recently with Abigail Marsh.

她是乔治城大学的心理学家和神经科学家，研究极端利他主义者。

She is a psychologist and neuroscientist at Georgetown University, and she studies extreme altruists.

如果你错过了我们与她的第一次对话，可以在本播客频道中找到。

If you missed our first conversation with her, you can find it in this podcast feed.

这一集的标题是《极端善意》。

It's the episode titled Radical Kindness.

阿比盖尔·马什再次加入我们，参与我们最新一期的‘你的问题解答’环节。

Abigail Marsh joins us again for our latest installment of our segment, Your Questions Answered.

阿比盖尔·马什，欢迎再次回到《隐藏的思维》。

Abigail Marsh, welcome back to Hidden Brain.

非常感谢你们再次邀请我。

Thank you so much for having me back.

阿比，你研究中的一类极端利他主义者是那些决定将肾脏捐给陌生人的个体。

Abby, one of the groups of extreme altruists that you studied in your research are people who decide to donate a kidney to a stranger.

我想从我们节目播出后收到的一条信息开始谈起。

And I'd like to start with a message we received after our episode aired.

这条信息来自听众露西娅·劳埃德。

It comes from listener Lucia Lloyd.

我非常喜欢这期节目谈到的关于我们所有人都希望变得更加利他的观点。

I really like the things that the episode was saying about how we all want to become more altruistic.

尤其是听到有人说，他相信上帝让我们来到这个世界是为了帮助他人，并希望遵循上帝的旨意去帮助别人，这让我深受触动。

And I was particularly affected by the person who said that he believed that God put us on this earth to help people and wanted to do what God wanted in helping other people.

我觉得这正是我所相信的。

And I thought that's what I believe too.

那么，要如何才能像那些捐肾给陌生人的人一样，最直接的答案是不是我也该捐一个肾给陌生人呢？

And maybe the obvious answer to how can I be more like the people who donate their kidney to a stranger is for me to donate my kidney to a stranger?

于是我上网查找了在我所在地区如何捐肾的信息，今天早上已经预约了医生，去做检测血型所需的血液检查，并留下记录。

So I got online and started looking for how I could donate my kidney where I live, and this morning made an appointment with my doctor to get the blood tests that are required to find out my blood type and have a record of that.

所以，我已经开始踏上这个流程了。

And so I am already getting started on the process.

现在还太早，不知道是否会被项目接受，但我希望可以。

And it's too soon to know whether I will be accepted to the program, but I hope so.

我想让你知道，这期节目对我产生了多么积极的影响——它激励了我，一个从未考虑过捐肾的人，开始着手进行捐赠流程，也许我真的很有可能因为你们的节目而挽救某人的生命。

And I wanted to let you know what a positive impact this has had on my life in motivating me, who had never considered donating a kidney before, to go ahead and get started in the donation process and that I might very easily be ending up to save somebody's life because of your episode.

这真是一个令人难以置信的故事，艾比。

So that's an incredible story, Abby.

当我听到露西娅的留言时，我泪流满面。

I had tears in my eyes when I listened to Lucia's message.

我希望她能顺利推进她的捐赠计划。

I hope she's able to move forward with her donation.

露西娅，如果你真的开始了，请一定告诉我们进展。

And, Lucia, please keep us posted if you do.

艾比，在你研究肾捐赠者的工作中，你曾采访过一位女性，她是已知的第一例非定向捐赠案例。

Abby, in your work studying kidney donors, you talked with a woman who was the first known case of what is known as a non directed donation.

什么是非定向捐赠？这位女性是谁，艾比？

What is a non directed donation, and who was this woman, Abby?

首先，我想花一点时间感谢露西娅打电话进来分享她的故事，听到肾捐赠对她的影响，我深受感动。

First of all, I just wanna take a moment to thank Lucia for calling in and telling us her story, and I'm incredibly moved and touched to hear about the effect that hearing about kidney donations had on her.

回到我们所知的第一个明确希望将肾脏捐给陌生人的那个人，她的名字是萨尼亚·格拉夫，或者更准确地说，她现在叫萨尼亚·格拉夫。

Going back to the very first person that we know of who for sure wanted to donate a kidney to a stranger, Her name was Sanyana Graf and or I should say her name is Sanyana Graf.

她还活着。

She's still alive.

她的故事非常特别，因为与我接触过的大多数利他性肾捐赠者不同，他们的决定部分是受到他人捐赠行为的启发，我认为这体现了利他主义所产生的惊人连锁效应。

And, she had a very unusual story because unlike most of the altruistic kidney donors that I have worked with whose decisions in part were a response to finding out about somebody else donating, which I think illustrates the incredible ripple effects that altruism has.

她在从未认识任何做过捐赠的人的情况下，决定捐肾。

She decided to donate having never known anybody who had done it before.

她只是知道肾脏需求很大，并且可以向与自己无关的人捐赠。

She simply knew that there was a need for kidneys, that it was possible to donate to somebody who was unrelated to you.

当时，她是一位母亲，也是一位佛教宗教领袖，没有太多空闲时间或额外资金可以捐赠。

And, she was a mom and a Buddhist religious leader at the time who didn't have a lot of extra time or a lot of extra money to donate.

她想，我知道帮助他人是美好人生中极其重要的一部分。

And she thought, you know, I'm somebody who believes helping is an incredibly important part of a good life.

这正是我能提供帮助的方式。

This is a way that I can help.

值得称赞的是，她坚持不懈地寻找愿意进行此类移植的移植中心，因为当时大多数移植中心都拒绝让人为陌生人捐肾。

And to her great credit, she was very persistent in tracking down a transplant facility that would actually do the transplant because at the time, most transplant facilities actually refused to let people donate a kidney to a stranger.

大多数人对陌生人的慷慨程度远低于对亲密朋友和家人的慷慨，这种偏差被称为社会折扣。

So most people are much less generous towards strangers than they are toward close friends and family, and this is a bias that's known as social discounting.

但那些从事非凡现实世界利他行为的人，比如我们一直在讨论的无关联肾捐赠者，表现出显著降低的社会折扣。

But people who engage in extraordinary real world altruism, like, the altruistic kidney donors we've been talking about, showed dramatically reduced social discounting.

在你的研究中，你探讨了这些利他者社会折扣降低的各种可能解释。

In your research, you explored various explanations for reduced social discounting among these altruists.

你排除了哪种解释，最终采纳了哪种解释，艾比？

What explanation did you rule out, and which one did you settle on, Abby?

在我们对无关联肾捐赠者最初的调查中，我们发现他们与大多数人不同，对那些他们不太了解、与自己差异很大、甚至是完全陌生的人也表现出慷慨。

So in our initial research with altruistic kidney donors, we discovered that they are unlike most people, generous to people who they don't know well, who are very different from themselves, who are even strangers.

如果你愿意把肾脏捐给陌生人，这一点就很好理解。

And that makes sense if you're willing to give a kidney to a stranger.

你不那么贬低遥远他人的福祉，这也很合理。

It makes sense that, you don't discount the welfare of very distant others more.

问题是，为什么？

The question is why?

我要说，我们仍然不了解为什么会发生这种情况，但似乎有几点值得考虑。

And I will say there's a lot we still don't understand about why this happens, but there seem to be a couple things in mind.

首先，在最简单的机制层面上，很明显，利他性肾捐赠者真正更重视他人的福祉，所有人的福祉，而且他们对他人福祉的重视程度并不会随着他人与他们的社会距离增加而减弱。

First, at the most sort of simple mechanistic level, it's clear that altruistic kidney donors genuinely place more value on the welfare of other people, all other people, and that the value that they place on others' welfare just doesn't drop off as those people become more socially distant from them.

也就是说，他们真心认为，无论其他人是谁，发生在他们身上的事都重要。

Meaning, they genuinely believe that what happens to other people matters regardless of who those other people are.

也许这种效果来自于人们随着自私欲望的增强，越来越擅长抑制自私的冲动。

It's possible that you could get an effect like that from people getting better and better at overriding the desire to be selfish as the desire to be selfish grows.

因此，也许利他性肾捐赠者只是在与陌生人分享时，特别擅长克服自私的偏见。

And so maybe it could be the case that altruistic kidney donors are just very good at overriding the bias to be selfish when it comes to sharing with strangers.

但我们进行的脑成像研究完全未发现这种迹象。

But the brain imaging research we did showed no evidence of that at all.

当我们在fMRI脑扫描过程中，要求利他性肾捐赠者和普通成年人做出是否自私或与日益疏远的他人分享的决定时，我们没有发现任何与克服内在偏见（包括自私偏见）相关的脑区激活迹象。

When we asked altruistic kidney donors and typical adults to make decisions whether to be selfish or to share with increasingly distant others during fMRI brain scanning, we found no evidence of activation in any of the brain regions that are associated with overcoming internal biases, including the bias to be selfish.

相反，我们发现杏仁核和腹侧前扣带回等脑区的激活模式，与利他者对日益疏远的陌生人福祉所赋予的价值相对应。

Instead, we found patterns of activation in regions like the amygdala and the rostral anterior cingulate cortex that mapped onto the value that the altruist replacing on increasingly distant strangers' welfare.

露西娅在给我们的消息中提到，她相信上帝让我们来到世上是为了帮助他人。

Lucia mentioned in her message to us that she believes that God put us on earth to help other people.

这引出了许多人提出的一个问题。

This brings us to a question that many people raised.

这是我们收到的一条来自听众鲍勃·迪恩的消息。

Here's a message we received from listener Bob Dean.

你好。

Hello.

我是来自马萨诸塞州达克斯伯里圣家堂的鲍勃·迪恩神父。

My name is father Bob Dean from Holy Family Church in Duxbury, Massachusetts.

我打电话来想问一个问题：宗教信仰与利他主义之间是否存在关联？

And I'm calling to ask the question, is there any correlation between religiosity and one's altruism?

你觉得呢，艾比？

What do you think, Abby?

宗教信仰与利他主义之间的关系是复杂的。

The relationship between religiosity and altruism is complex.

毫无疑问，大多数主要宗教都非常重视帮助陌生人，好撒玛利亚人的寓言可能是最明显的例子。

There's no question that most major religious faiths place a lot of value on helping strangers with the parable of the good Samaritan potentially being the most obvious example.

耶稣在教导中明确指出，我们每个人都有责任关爱邻舍，而邻舍可以是任何人，包括那些我们传统上不喜欢甚至与之冲突的群体。

Jesus makes it extremely clear in his teachings that all of us have the obligation to care for our neighbor, and that neighbor could be anybody, including people from groups that we traditionally don't like or even in conflict with.

许多其他宗教也有非常相似的教义。

And many other religions have very similar teachings.

佛教就是其中之一，还有犹太教、伊斯兰教等等。

Buddhism is one, Judaism, Islam, etcetera.

然而，如果你观察不同人群中的利他行为，你会发现宗教信仰与利他主义之间，或特定宗教信仰与利他行为之间的关联，并没有人们预期的那么强，尽管存在一些例外。

However, if you look at altruistic behavior across groups of people, you don't see as strong a relationship as you might expect between either religiosity and altruism or a specific religious faith and engaging in altruistic behaviors, with some exceptions.

例如，在伊斯兰教中，每年某些特定时期有施舍他人的传统，此时你确实会看到捐赠大幅增加。

So for example, in a faith like Islam where there are certain times of year where giving to others is sort of the tradition during that time period, you absolutely see big increases in giving.

但在全年范围内，这些差异并不显著。

But over the course of the year, the differences are not that huge.

只要任何社群将人群划分为‘像我们的人’和‘不像我们的人’，就可能抑制利他主义和慷慨行为。

And to the degree that any community creates a division between those who are like us and those who are not like us, that can actually suppress altruism and generosity.

因此，不幸的是，一些宗教团体中存在一种倾向——这种倾向适用于许多信仰——明确表示，真正重要的只是那些与我们持有相同信仰和传统的人，而其他人则无关紧要。

And so, unfortunately, there is a tendency in some religious communities, and this applies to many faiths, to make it clear that the people whose outcomes really matter are the people who follow the same beliefs and traditions we do, and people who don't don't matter.

而这实际上抑制了利他行为。

And so that actually suppresses altruism.

因此，我认为有许多相互竞争的力量影响着这种关系。

And so I think there's a lot of sort of competing forces that, play into that relationship.

我的感觉是，如果你的特定宗教观点认同人性本善，认为即使对一个人知之甚少，他也值得帮助，那么这种观点就可能在宗教信仰与利他行为之间建立联系。

My sense is to the degree that your specific religious views are consistent with the idea that there is inherent goodness in people and that the average person is worth helping even if you don't know much about them, then that could create a relationship between religiosity and altruism.

在我们最初的对话中，你向我们的观众传达的一个信息是，我们都可以训练自己变得更加利他。

One of the messages that you shared with our audience in our initial conversation is that we can all train ourselves to be more altruistic.

一位名叫苏西的听众提出一个问题，探讨了相反的情况是否也可能成立。

A listener named Susie had a question that touches on whether the opposite might also be true.

这是苏西的话。

Here's Susie.

我作为一名护士，在凌晨三点三十分开车回家时，发现一位女性倒在科罗拉多州丹佛市的马路中央，二月的天气，她赤身裸体，遍体鳞伤，满身是血。

I was in a situation working as a nurse driving home at 03:30 in the morning and found a woman in the middle of the road, February in Denver, Colorado, outside naked, beaten, bloody.

我靠边停车，把她扶到路边，用我车里的一条温暖的睡袋裹住她，等待救护车。

Pulled over, helped her to the side of the road, wrapped her in a warm sleeping bag I had in my car, waited for the ambulance.

当时发生这件事时，我27岁。

I was 27 at the time when that happened.

现在我60岁了。

Now I'm 60.

我想知道，你的杏仁核是否会随时间变化。

And I wonder if your amygdala changes over time.

它的大小会改变吗？

Does the size change?

经历会不会改变它的反应？

Does experience change the response?

我不是说今天我不会做同样的事，只是好奇生活经验、对恐惧的接触是否会改变你随着时间的反应。

Not saying I wouldn't do the same thing today, just wondering if life experience, exposure to fear changes your reaction over time.

谢谢。

Thank you.

所以，艾比，苏西提到了大脑中被称为杏仁核的部分。

So Abby, Susie referenced the part of the brain known as the amygdala.

在我们之前的对话中，我们讨论过你的研究发现：那些异常善良、高度利他的人，其杏仁核平均体积更大，这或许正是他们更能察觉他人痛苦的原因。

In our earlier conversation, we talked about your research finding that people who are unusually caring and highly altruistic have larger amygdalas on average, and this might be why they are better able to recognize the distress of other people.

你对苏西的问题怎么看？

What do you think of Suzy's question?

经历恐惧会让你变得更加规避风险吗？

Can experiencing fear make you more risk averse?

有趣的是，并不会。

Interestingly, no.

尤其是来自疫情期间的数据显示，急性压力状态反而会让人更倾向于帮助他人，我认为这其实是一个非常美好的道德启示，因为我确实认为，像《蝇王》这样的优秀文学作品描绘了人们几乎随时可能滑向野蛮的图景。

There is really cool data, especially from the pandemic, that states of acute stress seem to make people even more likely to help others, which I think is sort of a really wonderful moral because I do think compelling works of fiction, like for example, Lord of the Flies paint a picture of people just sort of teetering on the brink of civility.

当情况开始恶化，当我们所有人都经历着大量的恐惧和压力时，我们会彼此敌对。

And the moment things start to go south and, we're all experiencing a lot of fear and stress, we're gonna turn on each other.

但现实似乎并不支持这种观点。

But the reality doesn't seem to bear that out.

事实上，确实有一个真实版的《蝇王》案例，一群男孩——我认为是来自澳大利亚，但肯定是在南太平洋的某个地方——遭遇海难，流落在一座荒岛上。

In fact, there has been a case study of a real lord of the flies situation in which a group of boys, I think from Australia, but it was certainly somewhere in the South Pacific, were cast away, lost on a deserted island.

而实际情况是，他们建立了一个小型文明。

And what actually happened in that situation is they formed a little mini civilization.

他们彼此照顾。

They took care of each other.

他们共同找到了获取食物的方法。

They collectively found out ways to get food.

他们百分之百地相互支持，直到救援到来。

And they 100% supported one another until, help came for them.

因此，这与我们在许多其他现实情境中看到的情况更为相似：当群体面临威胁时，似乎会形成一种强大的动力，促使大家团结互助。

And so that's much more similar to what we see in many other real world situations in which groups are under threat is it seems to create a powerful incentive to band together and support one another.

但并非普遍如此。

Not universally.

对吧？

Right?

我研究的是我称之为关怀连续体的整个谱系，从一端异常慷慨的人，到另一端异常冷漠甚至具有精神病态倾向的人。

And I I study the full spectrum of what I call the caring continuum from people who are unusually generous on the one end to people who are unusually callous and even psychopathic on the others.

总会有例外，有些人会在危险或压力情境中利用和剥削他人，但幸运的是，这并非常态。

There are always going to be exceptions and people who will take advantage of and exploit people in situations of, danger or stress, but that luckily is not the norm.

至于苏西提出的另一个问题，即人们是否会随着生活经历而改变，当然会。

As to Susie's other question about whether people change over time in response to life experiences, absolutely.

我们的生活经历100%会改变我们。

Our life experiences 100% change us.

特别是，如果我们经历过压力或恐惧，那时我们无法自救，感到自我效能感降低，觉得自己在那些情境中无能为力。

In particular, if we've had experiences of stress or fear in which we have been unable to help ourselves, in which, you know, we feel less self efficacy as a result, you know, where we've been helpless in those situations.

这在一定程度上是基于多条证据的推测，但这种情况可能使人更不愿意在他人身处危险时伸出援手。

This is sort of speculating based on a number of lines of evidence, but that might cause people to be less likely to wanna pitch in when other people are in danger.

但总体而言，当人们经历创伤并最终挺过来，成功生存下来，发现自己能够承受比想象中更多的危险和压力时，他们的自我效能感会增强，从而更有可能在未来帮助他人。

But in general, when people are in traumatic situations and they pull through, they they come out the other side and they actually were able to survive and they were able to withstand more danger and stress than they would have imagined, it increases their sense of self efficacy, and it actually makes them more likely to help others in the future.

我们回来后，聊聊文化如何影响我们的慷慨程度，尤其是对陌生人的慷慨。

When we come back, how culture affects our likelihood to be generous, particularly with regard to strangers.

您正在收听《隐藏的思维》。

You're listening to Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

这是《隐藏的思维》。

This is Hidden Brain.

我是 Shankar Vedanta。

I'm Shankar Vedanta.

善良具有传染性。

Kindness is contagious.

传递下去。

Pass it on.

你可能听过这句话。

You've probably heard that phrase.

这种说法你可能在堵车时看到过车贴，或在孩子的教室里看到过海报。

It's the kind of sentiment you might see on a bumper sticker while in traffic or on a poster in your kid's classroom.

但这是真的吗？

But is it true?

当我们目睹善良和慷慨的行为时，真的会让我们自己也更倾向于变得善良和慷慨吗？

When we witness kind and generous behavior, does it actually make us more inclined to be kind and generous ourselves?

当你思考这个问题时，听听听众亚当给我们讲述的故事。

As you think about that question, listen to the story we received from listener Adam.

他讲述了女儿刚做完开胸手术的那一天。

He tells about the day his daughter had just had open heart surgery.

亚当正开车回家照顾家里的猫，而他的妻子则留在医院陪女儿。

Adam was on his way home to take care of the family cats while his wife stayed with their daughter.

他行驶在95号州际公路上时，压到了一个坑洞，导致轮胎爆了。

He was driving down Interstate 95 when he hit a pothole and got a flat tire.

下面是亚当讲述故事的其余部分。

Here's Adam with the rest of the story.

我试着卸下轮胎螺母，却发现随车配备的短扳手根本无法拧动螺母。

I started to attempt to remove the nuts from the tire only to find that the short wrench I was given with the car was not capable of cracking the nut.

我试了又试，就在努力的时候，突然下起了雨。

I tried and tried, and as I was trying, it suddenly started to rain.

这对我来说是最后一根稻草。

That was the final straw for me.

我彻底崩溃了，不顾身处高速公路上的危险，车辆以极高的速度从我身边呼啸而过，我却在路中间发脾气。

I snapped and I had a meltdown in the middle of this highway regardless of the danger I was in with the car speeding by me at very high speeds.

我一定看起来很滑稽，因为我又跳又叫，对着我的车大喊大叫。

I must have been a sight because I was jumping up and down and yelling at my car.

接下来的一分钟内，一辆白色卡车停在了我身后。

Within the next minute, a white truck pulled up behind me.

一位男士从卡车上下来，让我想起了篮球运动员丹尼斯·罗德曼。

A gentleman got out of the truck who reminded me a lot of the basketball player, Dennis Rodman.

他浑身都是纹身，戴着多个耳环，头发是鲜艳的橙色。

He was covered in tattoos, multiple piercings, and bright orange hair.

他说：‘看起来你需要帮忙。’

He said, It looks like you could use some help.

那时我向他倾诉，说我的女儿刚做完开胸手术，我只想回家照顾动物，结果却发生了这一切。

That is when I unloaded on him about how my daughter had just had open heart surgery and I just wanted to get home and take care of the animals and then all of this happened.

他让我深呼吸，然后走过来帮我拧开那个螺母。

He told me to take a breath and he came over and tried to help me crack the nut.

他发现扳手太短了，于是说：这活儿得让贝蒂来干。

He realized that the wrench was too short as well and that's when he said, this looks like a job for Betty.

我看着他，问：贝蒂是谁？

I looked at him and I asked, who's Betty?

他回答：贝蒂是我的管钳。

He replied, Betty is my pipe wrench.

贝蒂轻松地卸下了那个顽固的螺母。

Betty proceeded to remove that stubborn nut with no problem at all.

我们完成后，我连连向他道谢，他却只是摇头摆手，让我别放在心上。

When we finished, I started thanking him profusely, and he only shook his head and waved his hand to dismiss me.

他转身离开时说：你女儿会好起来的。

And as he walked away, he said, your daughter is gonna be okay.

保持冷静。

Just keep it together.

她需要你。

She gonna need you.

我永远不会忘记这份善意和勇气。

I'll never forget that act of kindness and bravery.

我真希望知道这位先生的名字，好能好好感谢他。

I wish I knew this man's name so I could thank him properly.

我现在能做的最好的事，就是感谢贝蒂的坚强与决心。

The best I can do now is thank Betty for her strength and determination.

所以，艾比，我们每周都会在姐妹播客《我的无名英雄》中讲述这样的故事。

So Abby, we feature stories like this every week on our sister podcast, My Unsung Hero.

所以我们从听众那里得知，这些故事普遍让他们感到非常鼓舞和感动。

So we know anecdotally from listeners that they find these stories to be very uplifting uplifting and very moving.

但从科学和神经学的角度来看，我们是否知道这类故事如何影响我们？

But do we know from a scientific and neurological perspective about how stories like this affect us?

当然。

Absolutely.

这是我听过的最棒的故事之一。

And that is one of the best stories I've ever heard.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

我真希望当时能亲眼看到那一幕。

I just wish I had been able to see it myself.

我非常感谢亚当打电话来告诉我们他经历的事情。

And I really appreciate Adam calling to tell us about what happened to him.

这让我深有共鸣，因为我年轻时也曾经历过一次公路事故，被一位陌生人救下，他第一句话也是：‘看起来你需要帮助。’

And it really resonates with me, because of the experience I had when I was younger, being rescued from a highway accident by a stranger whose opening words to me were also, it looks like you could use some help.

这真的让我回到了过去。

It really takes me back.

从科学角度来看，我们知道这类经历会带来多种积极影响。

So what we know scientifically about this kind of experience is that they have a number of positive effects.