詹姆斯六世与一世的多重面孔

四百多年来，苏格兰詹姆斯六世兼英格兰詹姆斯一世国王的声誉一直通过各种视角被折射与反映。

For more than four hundred years, the reputation of king James the sixth of Scotland and first of England has been refracted and reflected through many lenses.

在今天的《历史特辑》播客节目中，历史学家克莱尔·杰克逊将探讨这一多面性的历史遗产，审视她在新传记《大不列颠之镜》中研究的关于这位国王声誉的诸多线索。

In today's episode of the History Extra podcast, historian Claire Jackson will be exploring this multifaceted legacy, examining the many threads of the king's reputation that she explores in her new biography, The Mirror of Great Britain.

向她提问的是埃莉诺·埃文斯。

Putting the questions to her was Eleanor Evans.

今天我们要讨论的是你关于苏格兰詹姆斯六世兼英格兰詹姆斯一世国王的新传记。

Today, we're talking about your new biography of king James the sixth of Scotland and first of England.

我想先简单说几个词。

And I'd like to start with a few words.

我们有'agitate'（煽动）。

We've got agitate.

我们有'decoration'（装饰）。

We've got decoration.

我们有'impostor'（冒名者）、'preoccupied'（全神贯注的）和'quintessence'（精髓）。

We've got impostor, preoccupied, and quintessence.

这些词汇真的让我很惊讶，它们是最早出现在苏格兰第六任和英格兰第一任国王詹姆斯著作中的部分词语。

And these really surprised me as just a few of the words that first appear in the writing of king James the sixth and first.

你的传记中始终突出展现了詹姆斯自己的言论，我希望我们可以从他作为一位文字大师的君主这一概念开始讨论。

James' own words are foregrounded throughout your biography, and I hoped we could start with this idea of him as a wordsmith monarch.

是的。

Yes.

这些词汇被牛津英语词典认定是詹姆斯首次在印刷品中使用的。

Those are words to which James is credited by the Oxford English Dictionary of being the first usage in print.

它们可能并非如此。

They may not be.

我的意思是，牛津英语词典在识别新词方面是出了名的不具代表性。

I mean, the OED is notoriously unrepresentative in terms of the way in which it identifies neologisms.

很大程度上这取决于词典读者的勤勉程度或个人偏好。

A lot of it depended on the assiduity or preferences of its readers.

比如，莎士比亚就被引用了超过三万次。

I mean, Shakespeare is cited over 30,000 times.

但这些词汇确实很好地展现了詹姆斯对各种词典编纂和词语运用的兴趣。

But they're a very good way of accessing James' interest in just all forms of lexicography and word usage.

我真的很想把詹姆斯私下和公开的言论都放在这本传记的核心位置。

And I really wanted to bring James' words, both private and public, to the forefront of this biography.

他对印刷品的接纳态度在当时很不寻常。

He is unusual in his embrace of print.

要知道，印刷术对十六、十七世纪的人来说是相当新兴的媒介。

Mean, print is a is a fairly new media for sixteenth and seventeenth century contemporaries.

在他苏格兰和英格兰统治期间，詹姆斯始终将印刷品作为与臣民沟通的渠道。

And throughout his life and his Scottish and English reigns, James embraces print as a way of communicating with his subjects.

他的首部出版物1584年问世于爱丁堡，当时他年仅18岁。

His first publication appears in Edinburgh in 1584 when he's only 18.

那是一本苏格兰诗歌指南。

It's a manual of Scottish poetry.

终其hes一生，，他he出版了涵盖广泛主题的著作：诗歌、恶魔学、政治理论、神学、烟草与吸烟等。

And throughout his life, he publishes on a huge range of subjects: poetry, demonology, political theory, theology, tobacco and smoking.

我希望将这些著作与他的人生经历相结合，同时他也非常自豪地宣称自己颁布了大量公告，并亲笔撰写所有内容，自称是一位多产的通信者。

And I wanted to integrate those works with an account of his life, as well as he's very proud of the fact that he issues so many proclamations and that he writes them all himself, he claims, is an extensive correspondent.

他留下了浩如烟海的文字遗产，最生动的体现莫过于1617年初版、1620年再版扩充的《詹姆斯一世全集》。

He just leaves a huge written legacy, perhaps most vividly demonstrated in his collected works that are first published in early sixteen seventeen with an expanded edition, second edition in 1620.

一部华丽的对开本巨著。

A huge handsome folio volume.

他是首位以这种方式将自己的著作永久化的君主。

And he is the first monarch to monumentalize his works in this way.

其编辑詹姆斯·蒙塔古指出，臣民们对此实际上感到相当不安——他们看待这些著作的态度，就像看待划过天际的彗星。

And his editor, James Montagu, says that this is is actually something that his subjects were were quite disconcerted by, that they regarded his his writings a bit like they regarded blazing stars or comets.

他们认为这些文字预示着某些异象。

They felt that they were portents of some strange thing.

我认为这部传记的主题之一就是：没有哪位君主比詹姆斯更渴望与臣民沟通。

And I think, you know, one of the themes of the biography is that no monarch really wanted to communicate with his subjects more than James.

但有时，无论是同时代人还是后世史学家，也没有哪位君主像他这样被严重误解。

And sometimes, both among contemporaries and historians, no monarch has actually also been more misunderstood.

我认为这位文字大师的文字游戏让我们看到了詹姆斯的新面貌，那些对这位君主只有浅显了解的人可能从未见过这一面。

Well, I think that the wordsmith, the wordplay gives us a new view of James that perhaps people who have more of a passing interest in this monarch won't have seen before.

你确实写到了这个名声如何被误解，正如你所说。

And you do write about how this reputation, as you say, has been misunderstood.

书中有句精彩的话我特别喜欢：'四个世纪的恢复期实在太长了'，而你的传记某种程度上是在修复他的形象。

You've got a great line in the book, which I really loved, that four centuries is a long time to be in rehab, and your biography is is a bit of a rehabilitation of this image.

不知道你能否带我们简单了解这位国王形象的变化过程，以及你的传记在这个故事中的定位。

And I wonder if you can take us through a bit of the changing images and depictions of this king and where your biography sits in this story.

是的。

Yeah.

可能没法面面俱到，否则这期播客时间就全用完了。

It probably won't be comprehensive because that would probably take the rest of the podcast.

但我觉得这本传记的主题之一就是詹姆斯让大多数人都感到意外。

But I think one of the themes of the biography is that James surprised most people.

他确实让英格兰人感到意外。

He certainly surprised the English.

我是说，他们首先惊讶的是，他在1603年继承王位的过程竟如此和平且毫无争议。

I mean, they were surprised, first of all, that his accession to the crown in sixteen o three was as peaceful and uncontested as it turned out to be.

然后他继续以各种方式让当时的英国人感到不安。

And then he sort of continued sort of disconcerting English contemporaries at any rate.

他们不习惯有这样一位君主：如此热衷于演讲和写作，对王权有着如此强烈而成熟的见解，并坚信自己作为君主的职责就是参与议会事务、出席法庭审理，不断质询法官和枢密院顾问。

They weren't used to having a monarch who was so fond of talking and writing, who had such strong and developed views about kingship, who really felt that his place as monarch was in parliament, in the law courts, constantly interrogating his judges and his privy counsellors.

毕竟他们早已习惯了伊丽莎白女王漫长而沉默的统治时期，许多事情都心照不宣。

I mean, they've been used to this very, very long, quite silent reign of Elizabeth with lots of things left unspoken.

这就是他给同时代人带来的惊讶之一。

So there was that dimension to the surprise he encountered among contemporaries.

几个世纪以来，人们也对他与男性宠臣的关系，以及他与妻子安娜王后的关系多有猜测。

There's also been lots of speculation over the centuries about his male favorites and the relations with them, as well as with his wife, Queen Anna.

但对詹姆斯而言更具灾难性影响的，或许是17世纪中叶内战带来的冲击。

But really more catastrophically perhaps for James was the impact of the mid century civil wars.

因此后世很难不把詹姆斯视为查理一世的父亲——正是这位国王灾难性地将不列颠群岛拖入了长达十余年的内战，并最终被英格兰议会下令处决。

So it was very difficult really for subsequent generations to see James other than as the father of Charles the first, who disastrously led British Isles into more than a decade of civil war and who ended up being executed on the order of the English parliament.

斯图亚特王朝的历史，特别是在1688年威廉革命后，特别是他自己的孙子詹姆斯七世（即詹姆斯二世）流亡之后。

Very much histories of the Stuarts, especially after 1688, especially after the Williamite revolution and his own grandson, James the seventh and second, fleeing into exile.

有一种常被称为'秘史'的文学体裁，试图通过斯图亚特家族自身的道德缺陷来解释十七世纪的动荡。

There was a what's often called a sort of secret history genre that attempted to sort of explain the troubles of the seventeenth century through the moral failings of the Stuarts themselves.

詹姆斯在很大程度上与查理一世作为国王的失败紧密相连。

And and James became very much bound up in Charles the first's failures as a king.

这种对詹姆斯非常刻板的邪恶看法贯穿了整个十八世纪，甚至在十九世纪也未被推翻。

And, really, that sort of very stereotypical wickish view of James that persisted through the eighteenth century didn't really get dislodged in the nineteenth century.

像麦考利勋爵这类人提出的非常粗俗的刻板印象，主要聚焦于詹姆斯和他的男性宠臣，实际上对其身体姿态的评述十分刻薄。

There are very sort of crude stereotypes by the likes of Lord Macaulay that focus very much on James and his male favorites that are very cruel actually in their assessments of James' physical bearing.

现在人们已经了解到，詹姆斯患有一系列身体残疾。

I mean, it's now understood that James had a range of physical disabilities.

我们只能在大约四百年后进行回顾性诊断。

One can only do retrospective diagnoses after about four centuries.

但他确实有明显的异常步态。

But he clearly did have an odd gait.

他显然患有某种神经系统疾病，现代分析对此已有诸多推测。

He clearly had some sort of neurological disorders and there's been speculations about modern analyses of these.

但那些更粗鄙的刻板印象中，他被描述为口齿不清、舌头过大、步态怪异，总是依附于年轻宠臣。

But certainly to the more crude stereotypes, you know, he was somebody who slobbered at the mouth, whose tongue was too large to fit, who walked oddly, who was forever hanging on his younger favorites.

这种对詹姆斯非常粗浅片面的看法一直延续着。

And that sort of very crude one dimensional view of James persisted.

正如我在书中所说，当你说在研究詹姆斯时，最令人沮丧的回应之一就是听到'1066年那些事'之类的调侃。

And actually, as I say in the book, one of the more depressing rejoinders you get quite often when you say you're working on James is the kind of Sellers and Yateman ten sixty six and all that.

我一时记不太确切，但通常因为英格兰视角，詹姆斯一世总被描述为口齿不清、宠幸佞臣。

I can't remember exactly off the top of my head, but, you know, James the first, usually, because it's very English, slobbered at the mouth and had favorites.

因此他被认为是个昏君。

He was thus a bad king.

2021年《旁观者》的书评中仍在使用'口齿不清'这样的表述。

And that language of slobbering at the mouth is there in a Spectator Book Review of 2021.

这确实是个很容易被随手拿来用的标签。

It's just a very easy kind of reach for.

我在书中谈到的一点是，恐同症确实影响了历史学家对詹姆斯的后续评价。

And one of the things I talk about in the book is that, you know, homophobia has certainly been a factor in James' subsequent reception among historians.

人们对他与后来成为白金汉公爵的乔治·维利尔斯等人的关系颇感兴趣。

Lots of interest in his relationships with latterly, someone like George Villiers, later Duke of Buckingham.

对于像沃尔特·斯科特爵士或宫廷历史学家杰西这样的19世纪历史学家来说，这种行为简直有伤风化，他们往往无法看透表象。

So to nineteenth century historians like sir Walter Scott or court historian Jesse, you know, this was sort of grossly indecent, and they really didn't often see beyond that.

我实际上认为，在对詹姆斯的某些评价中，恐苏症与恐同症一样普遍存在，特别是在同时代人当中。

I've actually argued that perhaps Scotophobia is just as prevalent a factor in some of the treatments of James as homophobia, particularly among contemporaries.

我认为真正让詹姆斯登基时震惊的事情之一，就是当时存在大量针对苏格兰人的仇外情绪。

I think that's one of the things that really shocks James when he comes to the throne is the extent to which there is just a lot of anti Scottish xenophobia.

从某种意义上说，他越是退回到苏格兰宠臣的圈子里，情况就变得越糟。

And the more, in a sense, that he retreats among his Scottish favorites, the worse it becomes.

所以我希望我的传记不会过于偏向另一个方向。

So I hope that my biography doesn't veer too much in in in another direction.

但我真正想做的是写一本关于詹姆斯六世及一世的传记。

But I think what I really wanted to do was write a biography of James the sixth and first.

我认为苏格兰历史学家对詹姆斯作为1567年至1603年苏格兰国王的事迹了解颇多，但由于王室在1603年迁往伦敦，他们往往从那时起兴趣就逐渐减退，感觉苏格兰从此成为一个由远方统治的缺席君主制国家。

I think Scottish historians know a lot about James as king of Scotland from 1567 to sixteen o three, but because the royal court relocates to London in sixteen o three, often their interest at that point tends to wane, and it is felt as though Scotland then becomes an absentee monarchy and is governed remotely.

而英格兰历史学家则常常想当然地认为詹姆斯在1603年仿佛凭空出现，把他视为某种天真、缺乏经验的国王，而非一个实际已在位近四十年的统治者。

Whereas English historians tend often to sort of assume that somehow James appears from nowhere in sixteen o three and that he's this kind of naive, inexperienced king rather than someone who's actually been on the throne for nearly four decades.

因此我试图撰写一部作品，来理解这两个常被视为不可逾越的传记障碍的统治时期。

So I wanted to try and write something that tried to make sense of those two reigns that are often sort of seen as some kind of insuperable biographical hurdle.

大多数关于詹姆斯的传记都只涵盖他部分统治时期，将1603年视为无法跨越的分界点。

Most biographies of James will be just portions of his reign with sixteen o three as some unbridgeable point.

这确实是英国历史上的重大事件，这也是本书反复探讨的主题之一。

It is a massive event in British history, and that's, again, one of the themes of the book.

但我始终认为这是同一个人、同一位国王——詹姆斯在成为英格兰国王后经常自称是位老国王。

But I still think this is one person and one king, and, certainly, James talks a lot when he's king of England about being an old king.

他表示自己在继承英格兰王位时已过中年。

He was past middle age at the point that he becomes king of England, he says.

当时他36岁。

He was 36.

然后他在50多岁时去世了。

And then he dies in his 50 year.

但他将此事视为生命中后半段发生的事情。

But he sees this as something that happens in the sort of second part of his life.

我想写一些主题性的内容，比如探讨他对苏格兰女巫的态度，以及他在英格兰参与女巫审判的经历，试图将这些线索串联起来，以理解这位复杂多面的历史人物。

And I wanted to write something that was thematic that looked at, for example, his attitude to witches in Scotland as well as his involvement in prosecutions for witchcraft in England and try and sort of bring those together to make sense of this fascinating multifaceted individual.

是的。

Yes.

整个叙事中有如此多的贯穿线索，帮助我们理解詹姆斯在这两个阶段的形象。

There are so many through lines that run through this entire narrative and help us make sense of James, both in those two halves.

我不想——正如你暗示的那样——将这两部分割裂开来，但1603年确实是个关键转折点。

I don't wanna, you know, separate those just as you've alluded to, but, you know, it is a hinge moment in sixteen o three.

我认为我们通常以非常线性的方式学习王位继承：伊丽莎白一世去世，詹姆斯成为英格兰的詹姆斯一世。

And I think the way that we often learn succession in this very linear fashion, you know, Elizabeth the first dies and James becomes James the first of England.

这种线性叙事让人们对这次继位实际上有多么不确定失去了太多感知。

It's such a linear narrative, and I think then in that so much gets lost of just how uncertain this succession was.

我认为你很好地展现了记住这一点的重要性，同时也贯穿了他的外交手腕这条线索。

And I think you bring through how that's important to remember, but also the thread of his diplomacy.

我们常认为他在统治后期是个极具外交手腕的和平缔造者。

We think of him being such a diplomatic peace bringer in perhaps his the latter half of his reign.

但这场游戏他早在之前就开始了，不是吗？

But this was a game he was playing far before that, wasn't it?

是的。

Yes.

我认为这正是我想传达的主题之一。

I think that that is one of the themes I wanted to bring through.

某种程度上，这延续了我之前在《魔鬼之地》中研究的一些内容——那本书主要从外国使节的视角来看待英格兰（虽然也包括不列颠群岛，但以英格兰为主）。

And in a way, that followed on from some of the things that I've been looking at in Deviland, which was very much looking at England, primarily the British Isles, but primarily England through the perspective of foreign diplomats.

詹姆斯在整个苏格兰统治时期都坚信自己是伊丽莎白毋庸置疑的合法继任者，并参与了一场极其复杂、多线并进的外交博弈。

James knows for all of his Scottish reign that he regards himself as the undoubted lawful successor to Elizabeth, and he engages in a very complex, multithreaded game of diplomacy.

伊丽莎白始终坚决拒绝确认她的继任者。

Elizabeth refuses steadfastly ever to confirm her successor.

她实际上将讨论谁将继承她王位的行为定为叛国死罪，从君主的角度看，这可以说是相当疏忽的。

She actually makes it a capital treasonable crime to even discuss who will succeed her, which one can see actually as fairly negligent, on the part of a monarch.

因此詹姆斯与伊丽莎白之间存在着非常复杂的关系，这种关系某种程度上支配了他的一生。

So James has a very complex relationship with Elizabeth that sort of governs his life.

我的意思是，她是他的教母。

I mean, she's his godmother.

她某种程度上一直存在着。

She's sort of always present.

他们之间经常通信。

They write to each other a lot.

这种关系因他母亲——苏格兰女王玛丽的存在而变得更加复杂。玛丽在他幼年时就将王位让给了他，但在他生命的前二十年里，玛丽一直被囚禁在英格兰，最终被伊丽莎白下令处决。

It's complicated by the presence of his mother, Mary Queen of Scots, whose whose throne he is kind of given when he's a toddler, but who remains in English prisons for the first two decades of his life and then is eventually executed on on Elizabeth's orders.

这一切都非常复杂。

That's all very complicated.

但詹姆斯还与欧洲大陆大多数国家保持着非常持久的外交关系。

But James also engages in very sustained diplomacy with most countries in Continental Europe.

若想推进他自认为继承伊丽莎白王位的合法权利，他需要尽可能多的国家认可他的继承权。

If he is to further his rightful claim as he sees it to succeed Elizabeth, he needs as many countries as possible to be convinced of his right.

其中许多是天主教国家，因此他花大量时间与天主教国家打交道。

Many of those are Catholic countries, so he spends a lot of time engaging with Catholic states.

而伊丽莎白一世实际上奉行孤立主义，除法国外未在任何天主教国家派驻大使，詹姆斯则惯于向整个中欧和斯堪的纳维亚派遣外交使团。

And whereas Elizabeth the first is is really an isolationist and she she doesn't have ambassadors in any Catholic country except France, James is very used to having diplomatic missions sent to all of Central Europe, Scandinavia.

通过妻子安娜王后，他与奥尔登堡家族保持密切联系，同时与诸多德意志公国、西班牙及教廷其他国家关系密切。

He has close links with the Oldenburg House through his wife, Queen Anna, as well as lots of German duchies, as well as Spain and other countries in the papacy.

对詹姆斯而言，与欧洲大陆各国——无论是新教还是天主教国家——建立联系至关重要。

It's very important to James to engage with all of that range of Continental Europe, whether Protestant or Catholic.

他想向天主教国家传达的关键信息是：他们无需担心他继承伊丽莎白的王位，他有善待天主教徒的良好记录（虽非正式宽容）。

One of the points he wants to make to Catholic states is that they have nothing to fear from him acceding to Elizabeth's throne, that he has a good record of tolerating not formally but treating Catholics well.

在苏格兰，有人怀疑他的妻子安娜王后虽以路德宗身份长大，却已秘密改信天主教，而他本人也是天主教徒玛丽·斯图亚特之子。

In Scotland, there are suspicions that his wife, Queen Anna, although raised as a Lutheran, has covertly converted to Catholicism, and he is also the son of a Catholic, Mary Queen of Scots.

与此同时，他向新教国家表明自己坚定支持苏格兰长老会的立场。

And at the same time, he appeals to Protestant states as being very firmly the Kirk of Scotland.

他非常习惯于在爱丁堡接待和主持外交使团，也经常派遣苏格兰人出国。

And he's very used to receiving and hosting diplomatic missions in Edinburgh, as well as to sending Scots abroad.

作为英格兰国王，他继续积极参与欧洲外交事务。

And he continues very much that engagement in European diplomacy as king of England.

你给我们描绘了一个热衷于沟通的形象，一个极其重视塑造个人声誉和开辟独特外交道路的人。

You've given us a sense then of a compulsive communicator, someone who cares deeply about forging his own reputation and his own diplomatic path in the world.

前几天我在公交车上读你书的校样准备这次采访时，转头看到了一长排英国国旗。

I was reading the proof of your book on the bus the other day preparing for this interview, and I turned sideways and saw this long row of union jacks.

我的意思是，这些旗帜随处可见，尤其是在英国的夏天。

And it was just, I mean, you see them everywhere, especially in the summer in Britain.

但在那一刻我突然意识到这次继位和他的统治有多么重要——作为同时统治两个王国并将它们联合起来的国王。

But it was just a moment where it just clicked for me of just how consequential this succession and and his reign is in terms of being the king of these two kingdoms at the same time and uniting.

我想请你谈谈他在这一历史时刻的地位，以及你在这里有些不同的考量。

I wonder if you can just talk a bit about his place in history in this moment and what you're considering a bit differently here.

是的。

Yeah.

而我们称之为'联合杰克'这一事实本身

And the very fact that we talk about it as the union jack.

我的意思是，这源自詹姆斯本人，拉丁语中的雅各布斯

I mean, that comes from James himself, the Latin Jacobus.

早期最棘手的问题之一就是如何设计一面旗帜——其衍生物就是今天的联合杰克——能够代表两个国家、两个独立主权国家以平等方式联合

And one of the most vexed questions in the early years was how to create a flag, the descendant of which is the Union Jack today, that could represent two countries, two independent sovereign states coming together in an equal way.

旗帜学，你知道的，这门关于旗帜的正式科学，其实很难体现平等，因为有很多方式可以通过旗帜与旗杆的距离或上半部分来显示优先顺序

Vexillology, you know, the sort of formal science of flags, is actually not very well equipped to show parity because there are lots of ways in which you arrange flags proximity to the flagpole or the upper half that show precedence.

但当时有两个国家，英格兰和苏格兰，分别使用圣乔治十字和圣安德鲁十字

But you had two countries, England and Scotland, with the St George's Cross and the saltire.

最终，我们今天本能想到的设计实际上只是19世纪的一个变体，其中圣乔治十字占主导地位，覆盖在圣安德鲁十字之上

And in the end, the design that we we sort of instinctively think of today is actually only a nineteenth century variant where the St George's Cross is dominant, sort of superimposed over the saltire.

事实上在19世纪存在两个版本

Actually, the nineteenth century, were two versions.

在苏格兰，他们更倾向于圣安德鲁十字覆盖圣乔治十字的版本，反之亦然

In Scotland, they tended to prefer one with the sultan superimposed over the Saint George's Cross and vice versa.

但国旗所附带的复杂性，实际上正是詹姆斯继承英格兰王位所引发种种复杂局面的象征。

But the complexities attaching to the flag are actually very symbolic of the complexities created by James' accession to the English throne.

他似乎认为，一旦自己继位成功，建立一个新国家——大不列颠（以区别于法国的小不列颠地区布列塔尼）将是顺理成章的事。

He seemed to assume that it would be very natural once his succession had happened to then create a new country, to create a Great Britain so that would be differentiated from Little Britain, sort of Brittany in France.

这在他看来具有完整的地缘政治意义。

This to him made complete geopolitical sense.

他正将王朝继承的优势转化为领土扩张。

He was converting the advantages of dynastic accession into territorial aggrandizement.

对他而言，这仅仅是个开始。

For him, this was the beginning.

从某些方面看，我认为这有点像《钦定版圣经》的编纂计划。

And in some ways, I think it's a little bit like the King James Bible project.

他有个绝妙的主意，然后就理所当然地认为所有人都会支持。

He had a very good idea, and he then sort of assumed everybody would run with it.

他意识到这需要将英格兰教会与苏格兰教会拉近距离，但两者毕竟都是新教的国家教会。

He recognized that this would involve sort of bringing the Church of England and Scotland closer together, but they were both Protestant state churches.

两国的政府体制

Both countries system of government.

两国都说着同一种语言的不同变体——苏格兰语和英语

Both countries spoke a variant of the same language, Scots and English.

除了地理上同处一个海岛外，还有许多理由促使这两个国家联合

There were lots of reasons, as well as the sort of territorial sense of one island encompassed by sea, to bring these two countries together.

书中开头部分详细描述了詹姆斯对这个联合计划未能实现的深深失望

And part of the book at the beginning is very much about James' disappointment that this just didn't really happen.

对英格兰人而言，他们的危机在于伊丽莎白去世后的局势

Mean, for the English, it turns out that their crisis was what would happen after Elizabeth died.

亨利八世虽然六次结婚，却未能确保自己子女之外的继承线

Henry VIII had married six times, but had failed to secure the succession beyond that of his own children.

英格兰人有充分理由恐惧：伊丽莎白死后，国家会陷入血腥的欧陆继承战争——正如书中所示，这种情况最终没有发生

And the English were terrified with good cause that on Elizabeth's death, England would just be plunged into some very bloody continental war of succession for the reasons in the book as we show that that doesn't happen.

詹姆斯最终以新教男性继承人的身份登基，此时他已育有三名存活子女并拥有完整的王室家庭

And James accedes to the throne as a Protestant male with three surviving children at this stage and a royal family.

从某种意义上说，对英格兰人而言，事情就这样结束了。

And then, in a way, the English, that's it.

危机已经过去。

The crisis has passed.

对英格兰人来说有点奇怪的是，詹姆斯继续担任苏格兰国王，但他实际上只在1617年去过那里一次。

It's a sort of quirk to the English that James continues being king of Scotland, but he actually only goes there once in 1617.

我认为在英格兰人看来，这已经没什么好讨论的了。

And I think to English minds, there is nothing really further to discuss.

然而詹姆斯南下时，以为这将开启谈判的序幕。

James, however, sort of comes down assuming that this will be the start of negotiations.

他任命专员来推进联合事宜。

He appoints commissioners to further union.

詹姆斯渴望联合除了统治者巩固领土的自然愿望外，还有其他充分理由。

James has good reasons for wanting union as well as just the fact that it would be a natural desire for a ruler to consolidate their territory.

因为詹姆斯深知，只要英格兰和苏格兰还停留在1603年那种王室联合的状态，这种联系实际上只维系在他本人和他的三个子女身上。

Because James actually knows that the link between England and Scotland, as long as it's a regal union as it is in sixteen o three, is really only vested in his person and that of his three children.

如果他们遭遇不测，这个纽带就会断裂。

If anything were to happen to them, that link would be broken.

就像火药阴谋事件那样，两年内发生的重大灾难险些夺走詹姆斯、亨利王子和查尔斯王子的性命。

And in something like the gunpowder plot, major catastrophe within two years that threatened to take out at least James and Prince Henry and Prince Charles.

伊丽莎白公主当时不在伦敦，再加上瘟疫横行时期，亨利王子本人也于1612年去世，这些都显示出这个纽带有多么脆弱。

Princess Elizabeth was not in London at the time, and in an era of plague as well, and Prince Henry dies himself in 1612, shows just how fragile that link is.

1649年查理一世被处决时，这个纽带立即断裂，英格兰人基本上就对苏格兰人说：你们可以自行其是，但这个纽带现在已经不复存在了。

Certainly, when Charles the first is executed in 1649, that link is broken immediately, and the English sort of just say to the Scots, you know, you could do what you want, but this link is now gone.

詹姆斯也明白，他不能简单地通过立法宣布英格兰和苏格兰从此共享同一王位继承线。

James also knows that he can't just simply pass legislation saying that from now on, England and Scotland will share the same royal line.

亨利八世曾试图阻止苏格兰人继承王位。

And Henry the eighth had tried to prevent the Scots of succeeding.

因此仅靠立法是不够的。

So legislation alone isn't gonna be enough.

所以詹姆斯有充分理由试图让这两个国家形成牢不可破的联盟，使之无法再次分裂。

So James has a real reason to try and make these countries so indissolubly linked that they can't be broken apart again.

但这一抱负他最终未能实现。

But that is an ambition that in which he fails.

不过或许需要补充的是，他确实提出了不列颠的愿景和不列颠的语言，并通过旗帜、公告、货币等形式，将这两个昔日敌对国家的联盟理念深入人心，至少在他生前无人质疑。

But perhaps, as a caveat, what he does do, is put on the table this vision of Britain and a language of Britain and things like the flag and proclamations and coinage that embed a notion of alliance between these two formerly warring states that, at least until his death, isn't challenged.

因此，若他的统治开启了这一构想，这便成为审视两王国间复杂关系及其未来道路的重要视角。

So if his reign is initializing this conception, it's a useful lens through which to really investigate complexities there between these two kingdoms and their path forwards.

同时也要看到这其中动荡的本质。

But also looking at the tumultuous nature of that as well.

我认为他的个人生活更能体现这种动荡对个人命运的影响。

I think his personal life is an even greater manifestation of just the tumult that it could impose on personal stories.

比如绑架事件。

I mean, there's kidnap.

还有谋杀。

There's murder.

以及他母亲被处决的遭遇。

There's, you know, his mother's execution.

还有针对他统治的阴谋，涉及火药等各种手段。

There's the plot against his reign with gunpowder and all the rest of it.

我在想，我们是否可以从他的个人经历和他应对这些事件的方式来看待这个问题。

And I wonder if we can look at his personal story and his approach to those various events.

是的。

Yeah.

书中很早期的章节就涉及暴力主题，讲述了詹姆斯身边始终存在的身体危险和赤裸刀剑的威胁。

One of the very early chapters in the book is about violence, really, and the extent to which physical danger and the naked sword are always very close to James.

他经常讲述这个创伤性故事：他母亲怀着六个月身孕时，在荷里路德宫目睹她意大利私人秘书被疯狂残忍杀害的场面，以及她担心自己才是真正目标的恐惧。

He often tells the traumatic tale of his mother witnessing the very brutal frenzied murder of her Italian personal secretary in Holyrood Palace when she is six months pregnant with James and her terror that she had actually been the intended target.

苏格兰贵族内部存在非常复杂的派系斗争，她怀着詹姆斯逃离，在怀孕六个月时深夜骑马长途跋涉。

There are very complex factional fighting within the Scottish nobility, and she flees pregnant with James and rides a very large distance in the middle of the night when she's six months pregnant with James.

詹姆斯经常谈论他在子宫里经历的这种创伤。

And James often talks about, you know, that trauma he experienced in utero.

他童年时期还遭遇过许多其他创伤，因为13岁时母亲的废黜引发了长达七年的内战——支持他母亲（天主教徒玛丽·斯图亚特女王）的皇后派，与想将詹姆斯培养成新教少年国王的国王派贵族之间的战争，这贯穿了詹姆斯整个童年时期。

There are plenty other traumas in his early childhood because his mother's subsequent deposition when he is 13 old triggers a seven year civil war between members of the Queen's party who supported his mother, the Catholic Mary Queen of Scots, and members of the nobility who wanted to make James this Protestant boy king, members of the King's party, and that lasts all of James's early childhood.

人们试图在斯特灵城堡让他远离最激烈的战斗，但他很清楚敌人视控制他本人为战利品。

There are attempts to kind of insulate him from much of the worst of the fighting in Stirling Castle, but he is very clear that control of his person is a prize for his enemies.

因此在他年少时期就遭遇过多起暗杀绑架阴谋。

So there are multiple assassination kidnapping plots throughout his young life.

这些威胁在他成年后也未曾消失。

They don't go away in his adult life.

作为苏格兰国王，他在解决苏格兰贵族间长期存在的世仇问题上取得了很大成功。

He also has a lot of success as King of Scotland in tackling endemic noble feuding among his Scots nobles.

他不喜欢看到王国中最显赫的人物每当有争端时就亲自上阵决斗的做法。

He doesn't like the idea of the most prominent people in his realm whenever they have a dispute deciding to sort of literally fight it out among themselves.

他希望人们通过他权威下的法律法庭来解决纠纷。

What he wants people to do is come within the legal courts under his authority.

他对英格兰贵族间的决斗行为也持类似态度。

He also has a very similar attitude to dueling, aristocratic dueling in England.

毕竟，如果自己的贵族们忙着互相残杀，对君主而言绝非好事。

Again, it's not a good image for a monarch if his own nobles are busy spilling one another's blood.

这在当时的法国是个普遍问题，詹姆斯迫切想要制止这种流血事件。

It is an endemic problem in France at the time, and James is desperate to sort of stop this shedding of blood.

我的意思是，在一些更负面的历史记载中，他常被描绘成天生怯懦，而他的和平主义并非真正高尚的追求。

Mean, he's often portrayed as, again, in some of the more negative historiography, as being instinctively fearful and that the pacifism isn't really a sort of noble aspiration.

只是缺乏勇气罢了。

It's just a lack of courage.

但我认为这本书真正想展现的是——他的一生就是一部对抗反复威胁的英勇生存史诗。

But I think one of the things I really wanted to do in this book is show that the the whole of his life is one very courageous tale of survival against recurrent threats.

是的。

Yes.

这点确实传达得很清楚。

That absolutely comes across.

让我们转向一个具体威胁——火药阴谋。

And just to turn to a particular threat, the gunpowder plot.

英国每年都会纪念这个事件，但很少有人知道詹姆斯个人的反应及其后续影响。

It's marked every year in Britain, but I think very few people know what James' personal response to it is and the consequences therein.

我在想我们能否看看他生命中的这段经历。

I wonder if we can look at this episode in his life.

我认为那是个可怕的时刻。

It is a terrifying moment, I think.

我们庆祝的方式很有意思。

It's interesting the way we celebrate.

我的意思是，我们基本上是在庆祝反恐行动的成功，它被挫败了。

I mean, basically, we sort of celebrate, I guess, the equivalent of a sort of counterterrorism success, that it was foiled.

但阴谋者策划的行动规模非常庞大。

But the scale of what was enterprised by the plotters is massive.

詹姆斯对火药阴谋的反应非常个人化。

James' reaction to the gunpowder plot is deeply personal.

他意识到这不仅是对他个人的一次暗杀企图。

He realizes that this wasn't just a single assassination attempt against him.

这是经过精心策划要在议会实施的，正如一名阴谋者在审讯时所说：'所有针对天主教徒的立法都是在那里通过的，那些迫害天主教徒的人也应该在那里终结。'

It was very deliberately orchestrated to take place in parliament, as one of the plotters later said when they were interrogated, that's where all the legislation against Catholics have been passed, and that's where those who were going to persecute Catholics should meet their end.

这将摧毁整个政治体系。

It would have taken out the entire political establishment.

我是说，包括上议院、下议院、詹姆斯本人、他的两个儿子、外国使节以及司法机构。

I mean, was the House of Lords, the House of Commons, James, his two sons, foreign ambassadors, the judiciary.

其中一个始终令人困惑的问题是：策划者们究竟意图何为？

I mean, one of the interesting sort of ever perplexing questions is what did the plotters intend?

在某种程度上，我们根本无法得知。

And to some extent, one just can't know.

他们一定预见到了这场大爆炸会引发巨大混乱，随后会出现权力真空，他们大概打算趁机上位。

I mean, they must have envisaged such huge chaos resulting from this massive explosion and then a sort of vacuum of authority into which presumably they could insert themselves.

我认为火药阴谋的规模也反映了天主教徒对詹姆斯继位后的幻灭感。

I think there's the scale of the Gunpowder Plot also gives you some sense of the disillusion that Catholics felt on on James' succession.

当初人们对詹姆斯登基抱有极大乐观。

There was a lot of optimism about James becoming king.

他母亲是未被正式承认的天主教殉道者——苏格兰的玛丽女王。

He was the son of an unofficial Catholic martyr, Mary Queen of Scots.

他的妻子安娜王后被广泛传言已皈依天主教，且他与苏格兰许多天主教贵族和信徒关系密切。

His wife, Queen Anna, was widely rumored to be a Catholic convert, and he had very good relations with a lot of Catholic nobles and Catholics in Scotland.

但詹姆斯从一开始就明确表示，他不会像苏格兰的亨利四世那样改变宗教信仰。

But James made it very clear from the outset that he was not someone like Henry the fourth in Scotland who was going to change their religion.

他是一位坚定的加尔文主义者，并保留了与伊丽莎白时期相同的迫害性立法框架——刑法。

He is a committed Calvinist, and he keeps the same framework of persecutory legislation, the penal laws, as Elizabeth had done.

阴谋者本身都是三十多岁的壮年男子。

And the plotters themselves are men in their thirties.

对他们而言，詹姆斯的继位以及他育有两子一女的事实，看起来像是永无止境的新教继承体系。

They are people for whom James' accession, as well as the fact that he's got two sons and a daughter, this looks to them like some never ending Protestant succession.

他们不愿再忍受父辈祖辈曾承受的那种严苛罚款和监禁压迫。

They weren't prepared to put up with everything that their parents and grandparents had put up with these sort of very oppressive fines and imprisonment.

这需要一次真正激进的干预与行动。

This was something that required a really radical intervention and action.

詹姆斯非常非常严肃地对待这一威胁。

James takes the threat very, very seriously.

我的意思是，他声称自己挫败了这一阴谋。

I mean, he claims credit for having thwarted it.

正是在收到告密信后，他下令再次搜查威斯敏斯特宫，就在11月5日议会即将开幕的前夜，盖伊·福克斯和他那几桶火药被发现了。

It is when he is presented with a tip-off letter that he orders that the Palace Of Westminster to be searched again, and that's the night before the November 5 when parliament is due to open, when Guy Fawkes and his barrels of gunpowder are discovered.

因此詹姆斯首先将功劳归于自己。

So James, first of all, takes credit for that.

几天后他立即前往议会发表演讲，试图让贵族和议员们深刻认识到这一事件带来的真实危险。

He then goes to parliament to speak immediately a few days afterwards to try and bring home to peers and MPs the the the real danger that this had presented.

当时大多数阴谋者仍在逃。

At that point, most of the plotters are still on the run.

所以事态发展非常迅速。

So it's a fast moving situation.

但他还非常典型地利用印刷品，确保尽可能多的人了解他及其政府——正如我所说——乃至整个政治体制所面临的危险。

But he also uses print, again, very characteristically to ensure that as many people as possible know the danger in which he and his administration and, as I say, the whole political establishment have been placed.

这些被捕并受审的阴谋者（包括盖伊·福克斯）被处决时，还伴随着司法戏剧性的损失。

There is a loss of judicial theatre accompanying the execution of those plotters who are arrested and brought to trial, including Guy Fawkes.

他们的所有供词连同詹姆斯的演讲都被印刷出版。

And all of their confessions are printed as well as James' speeches.

詹姆斯随后还与欧洲天主教国家元首展开了一场印刷品宣传战，在火药阴谋事件后的几年里写信给他们，试图让他们明白教皇对世俗至高权力的主张有多么危险。

And James then also embarks on a printed propaganda war with the Catholic heads of state in in Europe and writes to them in the years after the gunpowder plot, trying to make clear to them how dangerous the papacy's claims to temporal supremacy are.

詹姆斯在国内的反应是通过在英格兰推行效忠宣誓，强制天主教徒宣誓承认他们作为世俗统治者的效忠对象是他本人，而教皇对他们的权威没有世俗主张。

James had reacted domestically by passing an oath of allegiance in England to force Catholics to swear that their allegiance as a temporal ruler was to him and that the pope had no temporal claim on their authority.

他并未提及教皇的精神权威。

He made no reference to the pope's spiritual authority.

但只要教皇声称有权废黜其视为异端的统治者，詹姆斯就警告新教和天主教统治者们，他们自身的地位正持续受到威胁。

But as long as the pope claimed the right to depose rulers whom the pope regarded as heretical, James warned Protestant and Catholic rulers alike that their own positions were constantly endangered.

詹姆斯并未真正赢得这场宣传战。

James didn't really win that propaganda war.

对许多天主教国家元首而言，这种激烈言辞的公开发表令他们深感尴尬。

It was deeply embarrassing for a lot of Catholic heads of state to have this kind of rhetoric being sort of articulated as vociferously.

但毫无疑问，这场阴谋的规模让詹姆斯真切认识到早期现代君主有多么脆弱。

But, certainly, the scale of what was enterprised brought home to James just how vulnerable early modern monarchs were.

我在想，当人们观看烟花表演或看到篝火上的盖伊·福克斯肖像时，会有多少人记得詹姆斯随后进行的这场公关活动——他作为大众传播者，将自己的恐惧和讯息广泛传播出去。

I wonder how much as people attend fireworks displays or, you know, see bonfires with Guy Fawkes effigies on, people will remember this this PR exercise that followed with James being this mass communicator and really putting his fears and message out there.

我是说，我肯定会想起这件事。

I mean, I I'll certainly be bringing it to mind.

现在稍微换个话题，我们提到他的统治对苏格兰和英格兰未来关系发展具有决定性影响。

To change the tack very slightly now, we mentioned just how consequential his reign is in setting the path forward for Scotland and England and their ongoing relationship.

放眼海外，詹姆斯统治期间还发生了一些对爱尔兰和美洲都产生重大影响的重要事件。

Looking beyond those shores, there are also some very important developments and events within James' reign that have huge impact for both Ireland and America.

我不想把这些完全混为一谈，但就本次讨论而言，能否请您谈谈詹姆斯统治对这些地区的重要性？

And I don't wanna lump these together too entirely, but just for the purposes of this conversation, I wonder if you could just take us through the importance of James' reign for these elements.

确实有些同时代人会把它们混为一谈。

Some contemporaries did sort of lump them together.

我的意思是，许多爱尔兰种植园的投资人后来也投资了北美殖民地。

I mean, a lot of the investors in the Irish plantations were the same individuals that then invested in the North American colonies.

不过在书中它们是分开讨论的。

But no, they're treated separately in the book.

我认为爱尔兰是詹姆斯统治中非常重要的一个方面。

And I think Ireland is a very important aspect of James's rule.

它随英格兰王冠而来，詹姆斯继位时正值伊丽莎白政府已在爱尔兰进行了近十年的战争——1590年代的九年战争。

It came with the English crown, and James succeeded at a point when the Elizabethan state had been waging war in Ireland for the best part of a decade, the Nine Years' War in the 1590s.

与詹姆斯的大部分外交政策一样，他希望采取不同的做法。

And as with most of James' foreign policy, he wanted to do things differently.

他作为英格兰国王面临的另一项外交挑战是，伊丽莎白还与西班牙进行了旷日持久的战争。

The other foreign policy challenge he faced as as king of England was that Elizabeth had also been waging a very long running war with Spain.

詹姆斯总是说，我们与西班牙并无宿怨，所以让我们讲和吧。

And James always said, well, have no quarrel with Spain, so let's let's make peace.

但詹姆斯非常清楚，爱尔兰尤其为欧洲天主教势力提供了某种长期选择——出于各种原因试图从侧门进入英格兰。

But James was very aware that Ireland particularly offered Catholic powers in Europe the sort of perennial option of attempting side door into England for various reasons.

新教改革在爱尔兰并未取得牢固的立足点。

Protestant Reformation had not gained a strong foothold in in Ireland.

因此这里主要是天主教人口，与西班牙有着悠久的宗教认同，以及文化、商业上的紧密联系。

So it's a majority Catholic population, long standing confessional, but also cultural, commercial ties to Spain particularly.

爱尔兰的天主教徒最初对詹姆斯的继位充满期待，因为他被视为不同于伊丽莎白的人，作为苏格兰玛丽女王的儿子。

And there is a lot of excitement about James' accession initially in Ireland among Catholics because he is seen as somebody who is not Elizabeth, as the mother of Mary Queen of Scots.

我认为最初人们可能抱有更多希望，认为这意味着天主教将获得正式宽容。

I think there's probably initially more hope that this will mean formal toleration for Catholics.

但詹姆斯确实以比伊丽莎白政府更为审慎的态度处理爱尔兰政务。

But James certainly, I think, approaches Irish government with much more sensitivity than the Elizabethan administration.

不过他面临的战后局势非常脆弱，而伯爵们的逃亡使这种战后局势更加岌岌可危。

But it is a very fragile postwar situation that he encounters, and that postwar situation is made even more fragile by the flight of the earls.

因此，爱尔兰北部的两位大领主因詹姆斯政权对其地位的威胁日益加剧而惊恐逃亡欧洲大陆。

So two big regional magnates in the North Of Ireland take fright at the growing threat to their position by James' administration and flee to the continent.

1607年这一事件造成了巨大的权力真空。

In sixteen o seven, that creates a huge power vacuum.

詹姆斯担心，正如他们所言，他们的意图是前往西班牙或教廷寻求武装力量以恢复其统治。

And James is worried that, as they have said they'll do, their their intention is to go to Spain or to the papacy and bring back arms and forces to reestablish their power.

詹姆斯反而利用这一真空机会启动大规模殖民计划，主要（非全部）向爱尔兰迁移新教徒，虽然也有部分天主教徒，但旨在通过新教信仰、和平与繁荣来以全新方式重建整个北爱尔兰。

James instead uses that vacuum as an opportunity to create a huge plantation project to plant Ireland with Protestants, mostly, not exclusively, there are some Catholics as well but to try and bring together Protestantism, peace, prosperity and to settle the whole of the North Of Ireland in a new way.

并非大规模的地产，我的意思是将土地分割，利用伦敦城的财富来建立城镇和市场，消除盖尔习俗和盖尔文化依附。

Not massive estates, I mean to to parcel it all up and to use the wealth, particularly of the city of London, to try and establish towns and marketplaces and remove Gaelic customs and Gaelic attachments.

这是一个极其雄心勃勃的计划。

It is a hugely ambitious project.

从改变阿尔斯特地区物理格局的角度来看，它是成功的。

It is successful to the extent that it is transformative of the physical arrangement of that area of Ulster.

同时这也造成了深重的创伤，留下了困扰数个世纪的复杂遗产。

It's also deeply traumatic and leaves a very troubled legacy, much of which is endured over the centuries.

但这几乎是一个有趣的实验室时刻，伦敦和都柏林的众多智识分子都参与其中，试图在实地创建新社会。

But it is a very interesting sort of laboratory almost moment in which a lot of minds, both in London and in Dublin, are engaged in creating a new society on the ground.

这是詹姆斯曾在苏格兰尝试过的模式。

It is something that James has tried in Scotland.

比如在1590年代曾试图在路易斯岛进行殖民但成效不佳，目的同样是削弱他认为权力过大且不受王权控制的高地盖尔酋长们的影响力。

I mean, had tried to plant fairly unsuccessfully the Isle Of Lewis in the fifteen nineties, again, to try and reduce the influence of Highland Gaelic chiefs that he felt had too much authority and weren't within royal authority.

因此这个模式源自他在苏格兰的经验积累。

So it is it is a model that he is drawing from his experiences in Scotland.

但如我所说，这一模式在爱尔兰被证明造成了深重的创伤。

But as I say, it's one that proves deeply traumatic in Ireland.

与此同时，詹姆斯也对北美正在进行的殖民定居点感兴趣，尤其是弗吉尼亚。

And at the same time, James is also interested in the colonial settlements that are taking place in North America, particularly in Virginia.

这些定居点现阶段非常脆弱，但詹姆斯敦和詹姆斯河以他命名的事实表明，到詹姆斯统治末期，弗吉尼亚已成为第一个王室直辖殖民地。

These are very fragile settlements at this stage, but the very fact that Jamestown and the James River sort of bear his name show that by the end of James's reign, Virginia became the first crown colony.

此前曾有一系列问题频出的私营公司管理模式。

There had been a series of problematic private company administrations.

当地还发生过多次起义和屠杀事件。

There had been local uprisings and massacres.

英格兰在北美那一小块立足点如此脆弱，以至于它最终成为了首个王室直辖殖民地。

And that toehold of the English state in that bit of North America remained so fragile that actually that became the first crown colony.

詹姆斯本人曾表示，他将对此事保持高度个人关注。

And James himself said this would be something that in which he would also take a very personal interest.

显然，这对两国都产生了深远影响，正如你所说，许多影响脉络一直延续至今。

I mean, obviously, huge consequences for both nations there, and as you say, many sort of lines running right through to the present day.

你在书的结尾部分提到，詹姆斯在流行文化中处于玛丽·苏格兰女王和伊丽莎白一世这两位巨人的阴影之下。

You sort of alluded to at the end of the book that James sits after these two behemoths in popular culture of Mary Queen of Scots and Elizabeth I.

然而你刚刚概述了他的统治在诸多方面具有何等深远的影响。

Yet, you've just outlined how consequential his reign is in so many ways.

你认为为什么他在大众认知中处于相对次要的地位？

Why do you think that he sort of holds then maybe a bit of a lesser place in that popular consciousness?

我认为诚实的答案是：我不知道。

I think the honest answer is I don't know.

我认为他是一位复杂的君主。

I think he is a complex monarch.

我认为这是一个复杂的历史时期。

I think this is a complex period of history.

你面对的是两个国家和两段民族历史。

You have two countries and two national histories.

我认为人们几乎总是将他与内战困境联系在一起——其中部分可追溯至统治时期的结构性问题，比如长期存在的王室财政困境，这是詹姆斯未能解决的。

I think he is almost invariably associated with the difficulties of the civil wars, some of which can be traced back to structural problems within the reign, sort of endemic crown penury and sort of crown finances, is not something that James resolved.

他与英格兰议会的关系也非常棘手。

And he also has very problematic relations with the English parliament.

我仍然认为他不会落得和他儿子一样的下场。

I still think he would not have ended up in the position that his son ended up in.

我认为这其中还涉及几代人对同性恋的恐惧，某种程度上也包括对苏格兰人的偏见。

I think there has also been generations of homophobia, scotophobia to some extent.

刚才你提到关于他声誉的变化，以及人们对他性取向和偏爱男性宠臣的关注。

Just reflecting on what you mentioned earlier in your answer about his reputation, his changing reputation, and the attention that's been paid to his sexuality and his preference for male favorites.

这种关注度时高时低，可能影响了他的声誉，但最近确实因戏剧作品引发了更多兴趣，不是吗？

And where that has, you know, ebbed and waned and perhaps colored his reputation, there has definitely been more of an interest, hasn't there, recently driven by drama.

有部名为《玛丽与乔治》的戏剧就聚焦于这一名声，似乎让这个话题重新流行起来。

There was drama Mary and George that focused on this reputation, and it sort of had a bit of a resurgence seemingly.

但你怎么看待以这些关系为核心的做法？

But what do you think of centering these relationships?

我想这个问题的第二部分是：我们是否需要一部关于詹姆斯六世和一世的戏剧进入视野？

And I guess the secondary part of that question is do we need a James VI and first drama in our sights?

我认为这是回顾詹姆斯时的一个扭曲视角。

I think that has been one of the distorting lenses, looking at James in retrospect.

我的意思是，就个人而言，我认为几乎不可能将君主的私生活与其政治身份完全割裂开来。

I mean, for what it's worth, I think it's almost impossible, really, to extract a personal life from a monarch and not see it in political terms.

詹姆斯本人在与一位男性宠臣的重大争论中也表达了类似观点。

James himself says as much in one of his big arguments with one of his male favorites.

他说：'我无法将国王身份与这件事分开，无论我以私人身份与你交谈多少。'

You know, I cannot divorce the fact that I am king from this, no matter how much I speak to you as a private man.

对詹姆斯而言，将个人生活抽离的想法本身就是自相矛盾的。

To James, the idea of extricating his personal life would have seemed a contradiction in terms.

要知道，这个人从13个月大起就不知道不当国王是什么感觉。

You know, this is also somebody who can never remember not being a king from thirteen months.

但我认为只关注这点会错失太多东西。

But I do think to only focus on that misses so much.

我们生活都有不同面向，但詹姆斯似乎比大多数人拥有更多维度。

We all have various aspects to our lives, but James seems to me to have more than most.

我是说，我们还没谈到的一件事是他参与《钦定版圣经》这样的项目。

I mean, one of the things we haven't talked about is sort of his involvement in something like the King James Bible.

我是说，这是一个对各种神学形式都浸淫其中且深深着迷的人。

I mean, this is somebody who is so marinated and fascinated by all forms of sort of theology.

这是一个作为议会成员和政治参与者非常活跃的人，对欧洲大陆的地缘政治非常关注，对文化艺术也非常感兴趣。

This is somebody who is very active as a parliamentarian and sort of political engagement, very exercised by continental geopolitics, very interested in sort of the culture and the arts.

如果想想莎士比亚、琼森、多恩这些同时代的杰出作家，我认为这是英国历史上一个令人着迷的时期，也就是苏格兰和英格兰的历史。

And if one thinks about the sort of amazing writers of Shakespeare and Johnson and Donne and people that are writing at the same time, I mean, I see it as a fascinating sort of moment in British history, I mean, Scottish and English history.

我希望通过理解詹姆斯和他的著作——无论是给他情感上亲近的个人，还是给广大臣民的——试图展现所有这些不同侧面，部分原因我称之为'大不列颠之镜'，因为一个人可以有无数种折射和反映。

And I hope that sort of understanding James and his writings, whether they're to individuals with whom he was emotionally involved or whether they're to his subjects at large, that trying to bring all of these different facets, I mean, partly why I've called it the mirror of Great Britain, because you can have so many endless sort of refractions and reflections of an individual.

但我希望尝试欣赏这个人物的复杂性，正是本书的部分目的。

But I hope just trying to appreciate the complexity of this person is part of this book's aim.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

我是说，整个对话都在鼓励听众们去阅读这本书，因为它确实非同凡响。

I mean, this whole conversation is encouraging listeners to please do turn to it because it is extraordinary.

克莱尔，我确实应该一开始就提到这个书名。

And, Claire, I should have absolutely brought in that title at the very beginning.

所以或许我们可以把它作为一个小结，你的书名《大不列颠之镜》。

So if we can perhaps use it as a bit of a conclusion instead, your title, the Mirror of Great Britain.

你刚才已经暗示了它的重要性。

You alluded to its importance there.

但它具体是什么物品呢？

But what is it as an item?

《大不列颠之镜》从技术上说，在当时其实是一枚帽饰珠宝。

So the Mirror of Great Britain, technically, I mean, at the time, was a hat jewel.

书中有幅詹姆斯登基后不久绘制的全身肖像插图，他佩戴着这枚显眼的帽饰珠宝——它由英格兰收藏的宝石制成，闪耀着象征意义，印证了他创建大不列颠的构想。

There's an illustration in the book of one of the full length portraits of James that was painted shortly after his accession to Elizabeth's crown, in which he's wearing this very prominent hat jewel, which is made up of jewels from both the English collections, and it gives you this kind of very spangling symbolic endorsement of his idea that the Great Britain will be created.

这是其中一部分含义。

That's part of it.

但正如我在引言中所述，詹姆斯最钟爱的隐喻之一就是镜子。

But as I show in the introduction, one of James' favorite metaphors was mirrors.

他总是向人们展示他灵魂的镜子，说，你们看，我是一面透明的玻璃。

He was always offering people a mirror of his soul, saying, you know, I am a transparent glass.

你们能看透我内心的秘密。

You can see my inner secrets.

颇具讽刺意味的是，大多数人仍认为他是最擅长伪装的人之一。

It is kind of ironic that most people also thought he was one of the most skilled dissemblers.

但几乎在每次议会开幕时，他都会向人们展示一面镜子。

But in nearly every sort of opening of parliament, he offers people a mirror.

这是早期现代文学中非常常见的修辞手法。

And it's a very common trope in early modern literature.

《君主明镜》这类书籍本应提供效仿的典范。

The mirror of princes is supposed to sort of give you a model for emulation.

但我讨论的一个重点是，这个时期的镜子和玻璃技术本身正在发生变化。

But one of the sort of things I've talked about is the extent to which mirrors and vitreous technology at this time is itself changing.

而且你知道，镜子不可避免地会产生某种程度的扭曲和欺骗。

And, you know, mirrors inevitably sort of distort and deceive.