DoorDash创始人Tony Xu的咨询热线

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尽管创业起步充满挑战，但AT&T商务服务能让新企业创立变得轻松许多。无论你经营何种业务，AT&T商务都能大幅简化流程——这本就是服务商的初衷：让你更轻松地筑梦。

But even though there were challenges getting started, there is something that makes setting up a new business easier. Getting connected with AT and T Business. It doesn't matter what your business is dealing with. AT and T Business helps to make it much, much easier. And that's the point of a provider in the first place, making building your dream easier.

登录business.att.com唤醒AT&T商务的力量。本节目由Klaviyo赞助——专为B2C打造的客户关系管理系统，助您实现史上最佳黑五网一战绩。当假日季来临，唯有最成功的品牌懂得用Klaviyo穿透喧嚣，通过个性化关系缔造创收奇迹。

Wake up to the power of AT and T Business at business.att.com. That's business.att.com. This episode is brought to you by Klaviyo, the only CRM built for b to c and the key to making Black Friday and Cyber Monday your biggest wins yet. When the holidays hit, your competition only gets louder. That's why the most successful brands use Klaviyo to cut through the noise and build personalized relationships that drive more revenue.

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With marketing, service, analytics, and all your customer data in one AI powered platform, Klaviyo helps you build relationships that drive more revenue and deliver truly personalized experiences at scale. Join the more than 176,000 brands like Away, Patrick Ta, and Dollar Shave Club that already grow with Klaviyo at klaviy0.com. Hello, and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges.

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Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call, and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is +1 804331298. Send us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. And you can also send us a voice memo at hibt@id.Wondery.com, and make sure to tell us how to reach you.

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让我们开始吧。本周加入我的是DoorDash的联合创始人兼CEO Tony Hsu。Tony，欢迎回到节目。

Let's get to it. Joining me this week is Tony Hsu, the cofounder and CEO of DoorDash. Tony, welcome back to the show.

很高兴回来。

It's good to be back.

你最早在2018年就上过节目。当然，那期讲述了DoorDash的起源故事。错过那期的听众，我们会在节目备注里放上链接。非常精彩的一集，讲的是Tony小时候和妈妈在同一家餐厅工作，因为他们在你四岁左右移民到了美国。

You were first on the show way back in 2018. Of course, it tells the origin story of DoorDash. And for those of you who missed it, we will put a link to it in the show notes. Super awesome episode. It's about how Tony worked at the same restaurant where his mom worked when he was a kid, because they, you know, they immigrated to The US when you were, like, four.

你把名字改成Tony是因为喜欢《谁是老板》这部剧和它的主演Tony Danza，这真是个有趣的明星。我喜欢这个故事。当然，还有你在斯坦福商学院时如何想到做食品配送生意的主意——这个主意我得提一下，当时遭到了相当多的质疑。对吧？

You changed your name to Tony because you love the show Who's the Boss and its star Tony Danza, which is such a funny star. I love that story. And, course, how you came up with the idea for a food delivery business while you were at Stanford, at business school. An an idea that I should mention was met with considerable amount of skepticism at the time. Right?

是的，完全正确。

Yeah. Absolutely.

部分原因可能是人们觉得物流和所有相关成本会让利润变得很糟糕。我记得2018年你上节目时，DoorDash大概完成了1亿次配送。而去年我看到你们处理了超过25亿订单。是这样吗？

And in part because people probably thought, the logistics and all the costs associated costs, the margins are gonna be terrible. I think when you were on the show in 2018, DoorDash had had done something like a 100,000,000 deliveries at that point. And I think as of last year, I read you processed over two and a half billion orders. Is that Yeah. Is that right?

是的，是的。这种变革的规模有时确实难以理解。但没错，短时间内确实发生了很多变化。

Yeah. Yeah. That magnitude of change is is is hard to comprehend sometimes. But, yes, a lot has changed in a short period of time.

我是说，这太不可思议了。DoorDash现在是全球最大的食品配送服务。托尼，我知道，如今你们显然在继续将DoorDash打造成一个更庞大、更广泛的本地商业和物流平台。你们已经扩展到杂货和零售领域。国际市场方面，我使用过你们收购的其他品牌，比如Walt和Deliveroo，我认为这些收购仍在进行中。

I mean, it's amazing. DoorDash is now the largest food delivery service in the world. Tony, I know that, you know, today, obviously, you guys are continuing to build DoorDash into a an even bigger, broader platform for, you know, local commerce, logistics. You've been expanding into grocery and retail. International markets, I've I've used some of the other brands that you've acquired like Walt and and Deliveroo, and which I I think is still in the process.

你能告诉我们更多关于DoorDash目前的一些动态吗？平台扩展的愿景是什么？

Can you tell us a little bit more about some of the things going on with DoorDash now? What is the sort of the vision for expanding the platform?

当然。你知道，七年前我们上次交谈时，我们基本上还是一个单一产品的公司，主要是餐厅配送。是的，单一地理市场是美国。这占据了我们业务的99%以上。

Sure. So, you know, when you and I last spoke seven years ago, we were largely a single product, so restaurant delivery. Yep. Single geography United States company. And that occupied, you know, well over 99% of what we did.

如今，DoorDash的业务涵盖五大领域。显然，我们仍然在美国提供午餐和晚餐配送。正如你提到的，大约五年前我们扩展到其他类别，配送杂货、便利品和零售商品。现在我们在国际上也提供这些服务。

Today, DoorDash is a business with, you know, five big areas. Obviously, we still bring you lunch and dinner Yep. Inside The US. We, as you mentioned, expanded about five years ago into other categories, delivering you groceries, convenience items, retail items. We now do this also internationally.

你提到了一些我们宣布的收购。我们现在在超过35个国家运营。我们还有一个B2B业务，帮助客户通过自己的渠道进行配送，或通过自己的应用或网站实现在线订购。

So you mentioned that, you know, a couple acquisitions that we've announced. We now operate in over 35 countries. We have a b to b business where we help you do delivery from your own channel or help you with online ordering from your own app or your own website.

这太棒了。有件事我一直很好奇。对吧？因为你们刚开始的时候，它叫Palo Alto配送服务，这个名字不像DoorDash那么容易上口。我记得当时只有八份PDF菜单和一个Google Voice号码，电话会转给你或你的联合创始人之一。

That's amazing. One of the things that I was I was wondering about. Right? Because when you want when you started it out, it was called Palo Alto delivery service, which doesn't doesn't blow off the tongue quite as easily as DoorDash. It was, I think, just it was like, eight PDF menus and a Google Voice number that went to you or one of your your founders cofounders.

是的。你们当时是如何衡量成功的？是通过餐厅的兴趣和参与度，还是通过人们在平台上的下单量？你们怎么知道这个模式行得通？

Yes. How how were you measuring success? Like, was it was it from the interest and engagement from from restaurants, or or was it from people ordering from the platform? Like, how did you know this was sticking?

没错。你说得对。实际上有三个问题能验证DoorDash的构想是否可行。但首要问题是：如果我们让所有餐厅都提供配送服务，消费者会在意吗？要知道在2013年，只有约10%到15%的餐厅提供自家配送。

Yeah. And you're right. There are three questions actually to know whether or not the idea for DoorDash would work. But the first question really was, would consumers care if we made available all restaurants for delivery? You know, in 2013, only about 10 to 15% of restaurants offered their own delivery.

我们真正关注的是：在没有折扣或营销激励的情况下，消费者会多频繁地复购？其他问题当然还包括：餐厅是否愿意与我们合作以增加厨房的增量销售？最后一个问题是：司机——我们平台称之为'达达骑士'——他们是否真的愿意与我们合作？

And what we looked for really was how often would consumers order and come back without a discount or some sort of a marketing incentive? The other questions, of course, well, one, will will restaurants actually wanna partner with us in adding incremental sales to their kitchens? And the final question was, would drivers, the dashers, we call them on our platform, would they actually wanna partner with us?

是啊。偶尔我会在领英上看到你和三位联合创始人2013年向Y Combinator路演的视频，看着特别有意思——你们当时那么年轻、天真、眼里有光，又带着质朴的谦逊。很难想象2013年的公司如今市值超千亿美元，这种成长速度简直难以置信。

Yeah. You know, every once in a while, I'll be on LinkedIn and that video there's a video of you and your three other cofounders. We have your pitch video for Y Combinator in 2013, and it's so fun to look at because you guys are so young and just naive and and bright eyed and and very so kind of just, you know, humble. And and it's hard to imagine 2013 today, this is a company with a market cap of over a $100,000,000,000. I mean, you know, you're you're it's just unbelievable to see how quickly it's grown.

但这段历程中肯定充满压力吧？比如2018年我们在节目里聊过，当时优步这个巨头发现了你们的业务，随即推出竞品优食(Uber Eats)。这些年你如何应对多重压力？既要处理各种事务，又要面对竞争者，还得应对各州法规的变化？

But during that in that time, I mean, there's been a lot of stress. Right? Like, we talk even back in 2018, we talked about about on the show how, you know, at certain point, Uber saw what you were doing, and Uber was a giant, a behemoth. And they start a competitor service, Uber Eats. How how have you managed stress over the years of trying to do a lot of things, of dealing with competitors, of just, you know, changing laws in different states?

你是如何统筹这一切并管理公司的？有哪些具体方法？

Like, how do you manage all of that and handle the company? What are some of the things you do?

我认为有个原则对我很管用，就是专注于可控之事。很多事我无法掌控，所以我会先列个'无需忧虑清单'。我控制不了竞争对手的行动或他们的资金优势，但我能决定我们交付什么产品。最终，我能掌控的是我们如何与受众互动、服务客户。

Yeah. I think one of the principles that helps a lot, at least for me, is just focusing on what I can control. I don't get to control a lot of things, and and just starting by, you know, almost writing on a list of things of what not to worry about. I can't control what our competitors do, how much, you know, financial resources they have versus us, but I am able to control what products we deliver. And ultimately, you know, I get to control a lot of how we interact and serve audiences and our customers.

我觉得很多时候当我们感到压力时，会有一种被压垮的感觉，仿佛一切都失控了，我们的能动性完全消失了。这再次说明为什么无论是职业上——我日常所做的工作，还是个人层面——我都在努力寻找高能动性的活动，让我知道自己仍在掌控中，对自己花费大部分时间所做的事情感到非常满意。正是这些让我能够持续前进。

And I feel like a lot of times when we experience stress, there's this possible feeling of being overwhelmed where everything is lost, our agency completely goes away. And I think that's again, a reason why both on the professional, what I do day to day as well as personal front of trying to find high agency activities where I know I'm still in control, I'm still getting to feel very satisfied with the majority of hours I spend doing what I do. That's what allows me to keep going.

托尼，准备好接听电话了吗？

Tony, are you ready to take some calls?

是的，我们开始吧。

Yeah. Let's do it.

好的。让我们接入第一位来电者。欢迎拨打咨询热线，您正在与DoorDash创始人托尼·徐通话。请告诉我们您的名字、来自哪里，并简单介绍一下您的业务。

Alright. Let's bring in our first caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. You are on with Tony Hsu, founder of DoorDash. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and and just a little bit about your business.

嗨，盖伊和托尼。很荣幸能与你们两位交流。我是罗恩·科迈，俄勒冈州波特兰市Steelport KnifeCo的首席执行官兼创始人。我们是一个小团队，在波特兰手工打造传世品质的碳钢厨房刀具。我们每件产品都必须满足三大要求：标志性设计、功能性细节，以及全部采用美国本地原料和制造。

Hi, Guy and Tony. It's a pleasure to be here with both of you. I am Ron Kormai, CEO and founder of Steelport KnifeCo in Portland, Oregon. We are a small team, crafting heirloom quality, carbon steel kitchen knives in Portland, Oregon. Our basic, tenant and every product that we make has to pass three requirements, iconic design, functional details, and everything US sourced locally made.

哇哦。罗恩，感谢来电。Steelport刀具——我刚浏览了你们的网站。你们在美国生产厨房刀和主厨刀，作为烹饪爱好者我对此非常着迷，我自己就收藏了很多刀具。这真是太棒了。

Wow. Ron, thanks for for calling in. Steel Port Knives, I'm I just popped on your website. You make knives in The US, kitchen knives and chef's knives, which I'm a huge fan of because I'm a cook and I've got a bunch of knives. And, wow, it's awesome.

能说说你是怎么开始的吗？当今世界上最好的刀具大多产自日本、德国甚至中国，虽然也有优质产品，但美国制造的刀具很少。我能想到的例子是Cutco。请谈谈你创办这个企业的初衷和过程。

Tell me how you started this because many of the best knives in the world are today made in Japan and Germany and even China. There's some excellent knives made, but, you know, very few made in The US. Cutco is an example I can think of. Tell me about why and how you started this.

是的。我认为就像许多企业家故事一样，其根源往往源于挫折感和发现市场上的巨大空白。我的背景是技术领域，职业生涯中参与过11家初创公司。哇。我之前的公司叫Finex Cast Iron，我们是唯一一家生产高端美国铸铁器的公司。

Yeah. I think it's like any a lot of stories of entrepreneurs is source of it has been frustration and seeing a big gap in the marketplace. My background is technology, and I've been involved with 11 startups throughout my careers. Wow. My previous company was a company called Finex Cast Iron, and we were the only premium American made cast iron.

我们在2012年创立了这家公司，2019年将其出售，现在已有其他八家公司进入这个品类，可以说我们开创了这个类别。我的驱动力之一是如何将就业机会带回美国。2019年2月，我有过同样的经历。我走访了美国所有的全国性和部分本地厨具零售店，正如你所说，盖伊，每一把刀都是在国外制造的，主要是日本、德国或中国的低端产品。

And we started that in 2012, and I sold it in 2019, and now there are eight other companies that make that category, so created the category, and one of my drivers is around how do we bring jobs back to US. In 02/2019, I had the same experience. I went to the kitchen retail stores in The US, all the national ones and some of our local ones, and exactly what you said, Guy. Every single knife was made outside of the country, primarily Japan, Germany, or low end China.

那些高端刀具。

The pre the premium knives.

百分之百。如果你了解我的背景之类的事情，这就像是在宣战。为什么？如果你是个刀具发烧友或烹饪爱好者，你会知道美国有一些技艺精湛的工匠能打造出惊人的刀具。所以我与我的商业伙伴Eitan Saez合作，他拥有25年的制刀、磨刀经验，我们正是基于这个巨大空白创立了Steelboard。

100%. And and if you know my background and things like that, that's like call for a fight. Like, why? And if you're in a knife nerds and in a cooking, you know that there's some really good artisans that make amazing knives in The US. So I partnered with my business partner Eitan Saez, who has twenty five years of experience making knives, sharpening knives, and we started Steelboard out of that big gap.

但我们其实是站在美国强大的刀具产业基础上。甚至俄勒冈州的波特兰市也被称为'美国刀具之城'，因为那里有大量刀具制造商，不过都是户外刀具。所以我们实际上是在这个基础上进行拓展。

But we are standing on shoulder of a very strong knife industry in The US. Even Portland, Oregon is a Knifetown USA because we have so many knives, but they're all outdoor knives. So we're actually building on that.

好的。在请托尼发言之前，先告诉我们你的问题。

Alright. I wanna bring Tony in before we bring him in. Tell us your question.

那么我的问题是，作为一家正在成长的小公司，像我们这样的消费品初创企业，何时是扩展产品线的合适时机，而不是继续深挖核心产品？虽然我们很聪明，可以开始考虑新产品——比如你们有一系列创新的砧板，正在申请专利，确实有发展潜力——我们该如何做出这个决策？

So my question is that as we are a small company growing, when is the right time for a consumer goods startup like ours to expand this product line versus going deeper into his core offering. But we are smart people and we can start thinking about new stuff like you have a new line of cutting boards that are innovative, it's patent pending, and has a really potential for doing that. How do we approach that decision?

目前你们只销售刀具，但现在你们考虑拓展到砧板等其他产品，但何时才是合适的时机呢？Tony Shu，你会做饭吗？平时在家下厨吗？我是会做饭的。

Right now, you're selling only knives, but now you're thinking of cutting boards and other things, but when is the right time to do it? Tony Shu, are you cook? Do you cook at home? I do cook.

我我我不像你Guy那样每晚都做饭，这是我刚知道的。太不可思议了。每晚坚持做饭对我来说是个值得追求的目标。不过好吧，这确实是个棘手的问题。

I I I don't cook every night like you do, Guy, that I just learned. That's incredible. That's an that's an aspirational feat for me to do it every night. But okay. So it's a tough question.

首先恭喜你们取得的所有成就。听起来这是个惊人的成功，而且我现在也对波特兰有了更多了解，之前不知道那里被称为'美国刀具之都'。我会首先思考的是：我是否有足够的管理精力？团队里是否有合适的人才来推进这件事？

And, you know, first, congrats on everything. I mean, it sounds like it's an incredible success, and I'm gonna learn a lot more now also about Portland. I didn't know it was called Knifetown USA. You know, the first the first part of what I would think through is, do I have the management bandwidth? Do I have the talent on my team to do it?

我在任何公司的项目中发现，无论资源或资金多么充足，真正的限制因素往往在于是否有个出色的独立负责人——不需要管理大团队，但能从头到尾负责新业务的人。就砧板项目而言，如果你们有这样的人才（不必是联合创始人，可以是你信任的团队成员），那就是个积极信号。

What I've tended to find with projects at any company, no matter how much resources or capital you have, what tends to be the rate limiter is do you have a great single leader lead. It doesn't have to, you know, manage a large team or anything who can actually be responsible end to end for the next thing. In this case, cutting boards. If you have that person, it doesn't have to be your co founder, but it could be someone else who you believe, you mentioned you had a small team who can do that end to end. I think that's a positive.

其次要考虑的是财务储备是否足以支撑前期投入，无论是材料、团队还是后期分销。我注意到砧板销售可能反过来促进刀具销量，这种产品互补性是个优势。最后我想说，如果你觉得完全准备好了，可能已经错过时机。适度的风险是必要的，但只要能把问题拆解清楚，风险就可控。

The second question I would ask is, do you have the financial runway to be able to manage, you know, obviously, what I would imagine would require some upfront investment, whether it's in materials or team or distribution later on as as you think about selling cutting boards. One of the nice things I do see here, obviously, is cutting boards hopefully will help you sell knives too, which means that the two products reinforce one another. So that might be a nice offset. The final thing I would say, I I think if you're feeling fully ready, you're probably too late. So there should absolutely be some element of risk, but I I do think you can manage the risks if you can disentangle the problem.

不，我我非常赞同你提出的观点。你在DoorDash的经历也印证了这点——对这些问题的答案永远是否定的。你永远没有足够的人才和资源，最终都是权衡取舍的问题。

No. I I I really like the points that you're bringing up. And, as your your experience in DoorDash probably matches that, you the answer to those questions, never yes. You never have enough smart update, enough resources like that. It becomes a question of trade off.

对了，顺便说下，我还有个身份是大学兼职教授，所以我的...

Yeah. And I'm curious, as a as a side, I'm also another role I have is a faculty at university and adjunct professor, so my

天啊。

Oh my gosh.

教授式的问题总是

Professorial question is always

你是博学多才的人。

You're polymath.

是的。但但我的教授式问题总是，哦，看看课堂环境中的权衡。我可以建议那个。但当涉及到我自己的生意时，尤其是作为一家小公司，预测真的很难。如果我抓住你提到的那些资源并投入核心，我真的没有超过五成的把握知道结果会怎样，而不是投入其他东西。

Yeah. But but my professorial question always, oh, look at the trade off that's in the classroom environment. I can advise that. But when it comes to my own business, it's really hard, especially as a small company, to project. If I grab those resources that you're mentioning and put it in the core, I don't really know with any confidence more than fifty fifty what it will result versus putting something else.

而且我认为看看DoorDash的历史，你不得不做出类似的决策，比如你是否专注于某个区域等等？是否有一个特定的时刻，你只是凭直觉和内心去做决定？

And I think looking at the history of DoorDash, you had to make similar stuff around do you focus around region and things like that? Is there a certain point you just show your hearts in it and go with your gut?

我确实认为其中一些战略决策很难，就像你说的，Ron，把它们写在纸上或电子表格上，或者让AI帮忙做决定。我认为就像你说的，你不会拥有所需的输入。你不会拥有所需的数据。所以这确实有点凭直觉。但我想说的是，这不必是一种全有或全无的赌注。

I do think some of these kinds of strategic decisions are hard to your point, Ron, of putting it in pencil and paper or on a spreadsheet or asking AI to help make the decision. I think like you said, you're not gonna have the inputs required. You're not gonna have the data required. So it it is a bit of a gut call. But what what I'm trying to say is it doesn't have to be this like all or nothing kind of bet.

那些往往不是，我认为，在这种情况下你谈论的决策，比如增加第二个产品。对我们DoorDash来说，2016年我们想推出DoorDash Drive，这是一个让任何人可以从自己的渠道、自己的网站、自己的应用提供配送的产品。他们甚至不需要在DoorDash应用上列出。当我们考虑启动这个项目时，尽管我们还在不同城市扩展自己的应用，我们思考了一些事情，比如我们可以组建一个小团队，我们不必押上整个公司，但我们可以全力以赴，既然你是教授，我就用这个词，我们会派一个我们认为能从头到尾完成工作的最佳领导，首先去弄清楚是否有潜力。

That that those tended to not be, I think, the decisions in this particular case where you're talking about, you know, adding a second product. You know, one that comes to mind for us at DoorDash was in 2016, we wanted to launch DoorDash Drive, which was this product to enable anyone to offer delivery from their own channel, from their own, you know, website, their own app. Not they don't have to list even on the DoorDash app to do this. And, you know, when we thought about starting that project, you know, some of the things we thought through, even though as we were still scaling our own app across different cities, was, you know, who is this small group of leads that we can put together where we don't feel like we have to bet the whole company, but we can give it a great college try, since you're a professor, I'll use that, where we're gonna put one of our best leads on it who we think can do the job end to end. First and foremost, to figure out whether or not there's something there.

我完全同意。我会先把它当作一次实验，一次你甚至愿意承受亏损的实验，愿意在金钱上有所损失。换句话说，如果你想做砧板，听起来你正在申请专利的砧板。我很兴奋。砧板还能有什么可能的创新呢？

I totally agree. I would start by treating it as an experiment and an experiment in which you are willing even willing to lose on, willing to lose money on. In other words, if you wanna do the cutting boards, it sounds like you are, patent pending cutting boards. I'm excited. What what what innovations could possibly be be being made in cutting boards?

迫不及待想看看。但我可能会采取的方式是把它当作实验来对待。对吧？也许先对最忠诚的客户进行一次限量发售。你只做少量。

Can't wait to see. But what I would what I would probably, the way I would I would go about it is treat it like an experiment. Right? Run a maybe do a limited drop to the most loyal customers. You you just make a few.

如果它们售罄并引发热议，如果只有100件且迅速卖光并引起讨论，你就知道需求是真实的。如果没有，你也保护了核心产品——目前是刀具。你随时可以回头再试。HexClad就是个很好的品牌，我们几个月前在节目里聊过。

And if it sells out and builds buzz, if there are only a 100 available and they sell out and they build buzz, you know the demand is real. But if not, you know, you you're you've kind of protected the core here, which right now are knives. And you could always go back and try it again. I think of so there's so many HexClad is a great brand. We did that that episode on the show a couple months ago.

那些人最初做的是锅具，不粘锅和炖锅。现在他们业务多元化了，包括刀具、烘焙器具等等，HexClad已成为庞大产业。你们的品牌名Steel Port为尝试多种产品提供了空间，对吧？

And, you know, those guys started with pans, you know, nonstick pans and pots. Now it's a multi I mean, they do knives. They've got all kinds of bakeware, and it's it's a huge business called HexClad. Your name, Steel Port, gives you a lot of room to try a lot of different things. Right?

不必局限于刀具，可以拓展到更广泛的美国制造厨房工具领域。所以正如Tony所说，你们有机会进行实验，承担的不是婴儿级别的风险，而是学步儿童级别的风险。

You don't it doesn't just have to be knives. It can be a broader category of of US made kitchen tools. Right? And so I think to Tony's point here, you have an opportunity to really just experiment and to take, let's say, not a baby risk, but like a a toddler risk here. Right?

不是那种押上全部身家的成人级风险，而是尝试些新东西看看市场反应。

Not not a full full on, you know, grown up risk where you're betting the farm, but you you you you try something and see how people respond.

我特别喜欢你们提出的组合策略——不仅是市场测试，Tony还强调了利用潜在机会的观点。像Guy这样的消费者可能还没准备好购买高端刀具，但他们需要砧板。何不借此机会？他们可能会先爱上Steel Port砧板，然后想要完善体验，反之亦然。

I really love the combination I'm hearing from you guys, which is testing, which is not only testing the market, but I think, Tony, you highlighted the leveraging, which is a potential opportunity. People like Guy might not be ready for a high end top of the line knife, but they need a cutting board. And Right. Why not use this, and they might get into and say, a steel poor cutting board was really amazing. Now I'm ready to make my experience complete or vice versa.

这种交叉利用和相互借鉴的效果，只有在我们真正推出后才能知晓。盖伊，我真的很喜欢你关于名字的联想。'钢港'这个名字前半部分取自'钢铁'，'港'则来自波特兰。是的，所以'钢港'组合起来就形成了开放感，而我们的新创新实质上是在两层端纹砧板和再生复合材料之间嵌入钢材。

And that the cross leveraging and pollination is not knowable until we actually launch it. And, Guy, I really like your connection of the name. The name steel port comes from steel first half, and port from Portland. Yeah. And so steel port combined becomes kind of opens up, and our new innovation is basically embedding steel inside two different layers of end grain cutting board and a composite recycled paper.

因此你得到的是一个双面砧板，内部有钢材加固，这不仅让你拥有双面砧板，还能让砧板变得极其轻薄。它的厚度只有约半英寸，相比传统——

So you have a two sided cutting board with a steel reinforced that allows you to not only have two sided cutting board, but also make the cutting board extremely thin. It's about half inch thick compared to

半英寸厚。我太喜欢这个设计了，因为我的厨房里就有那种专门放砧板的插槽。我扔掉了所有塑料砧板，因为大家都在说'你只是在切塑料'，但木质砧板又太厚了，特别占橱柜空间。

one half inch inch. I love that because I have one of those, like, slots in my kitchen with my cutting boards. I got rid of all my plastic cutting boards because everyone's telling me that there's, you know, you're only beating plastic, but the wood cutting boards are so thick that it just takes up so much space in that, you know, that that cabinet.

太好了。我预计会有几位名叫托尼和盖伊的顾客光顾。好的。

Great. So I expect to have a couple customers coming through with names Tony and Guy on the Alright.

这就对了。这就对了。没错。肯定的。

Here we go. Here we go. Yeah. For sure. For sure.

罗恩·科梅，品牌名是钢港刀具。祝你好运。感谢来电，老兄。真的很感谢。

Ron Cormay, Steel Port Knives is the brand. Good luck. Thanks for calling in, man. Really appreciate it.

谢谢邀请。祝你有愉快的一天。

Thank you for having me. Have a great day.

我们将短暂休息片刻，回来后会有另一位来电者、另一个问题以及新一轮的建议。我是盖伊·罗斯。请别走开，您正在收听的是《我是如何打造这一切》节目中的建议热线。我最棒的一些旅行体验都来自Airbnb，因为那里能给你空间、隐私，以及真正融入社区而非匆匆过客的感觉。

We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice. I'm Guy Ross. Stick around. You're listening to the advice line on how I built this lab. Some of my best trips have been on Airbnb because you get space, privacy, and the feeling of actually being part of the neighborhood, not just passing through.

你可以和朋友舒展身心，围桌共享美食，或是在客厅而非大堂里放松。这不仅仅是关于住所。Airbnb体验项目包含了我旅行中最难忘的一些经历。事实上，我玩得如此尽兴，以至于决定本月在旧金山主持自己的原创Airbnb体验活动，旨在帮助你思考职业生涯或人生的下一步重大转变。

You can spread out with friends, share meals around a table, or just relax in the living room instead of a lobby. And it's not just about the homes. Airbnb experiences have been some of the most memorable things I've done while traveling. In fact, I've had so much fun that I decided to host my own original Airbnb experience in San Francisco this month. It's designed to help you think about your next big move in your career or in your life.

若想了解详情，请访问airbnb.com/guy。似乎每天我们都能听到AI将取代工作的消息，人们变得焦虑恐惧。但Miro最新调查显示，76%的人认为AI其实有利于他们的工作，而54%的人却难以把握使用时机。这时就需要Miro的创新工作空间——一个将人与AI汇聚在共享空间完成卓越工作的智能平台。

If you wanna check it out, head to airbnb.com/guy. It seems like every day we hear about how AI is coming for our jobs and people are getting anxious and fearful. But a recent survey from Miro reveals that 76% of us believe that AI can actually benefit their role, while fifty four percent struggle to know when to use it. Well, enter Miro's innovation workspace. It's an intelligent platform that brings people and AI together in a shared space to get great work done.

十余年来，Miro始终助力团队将大胆构想转化为下一个重大成果。我们最近启动的新项目就运用了Miro，它真是个绝佳的创意伙伴：帮助我们优化组织流程，甚至能激发新创意。你无需成为AI专家或切换其他工具。

Miro has been empowering teams to transform bold ideas into the next big thing for over a decade. We've recently started a new project using Miro and it's a really awesome creative partner. It helps us develop better processes for organizing. It even generates new ideas. You don't have to be an AI master or toggle to yet another tool.

你在Miro画布上正在进行的工作就是最佳指令。助力团队通过Miro成就卓越，访问miro.com一探究竟（网址mir0.com）。本期《我是如何打造这一切》由Square赞助播出。

The work you're already doing on Miro's Canvas is the prompt. Help your teams get great done with Miro. Check out miro.com to find out how. That's mir0.com. This episode of How I Built This was brought to you by Square.

在Square的新系列节目《上升之路》中，我与六家本土企业深入对话，记录企业家历程中的障碍与巅峰，以及Square如何助力业务成长。想想你欣赏的那些欣欣向荣的本地企业——或许是拥有最柔软毛巾的精品店，或是出品最佳司康饼的社区咖啡馆。这些企业大多信赖Square来管理运营并实现增长。

In Square's new series, the way up, I sit down with six local businesses. I chart the entrepreneur's journey, the hurdles, and the highs, and how Square played a part in helping the business grow. Think about a thriving local business you admire. Maybe it's a great boutique with the softest towels or a local cafe that has the best scones. Many of these businesses trust Square to help manage their operations and grow.

比如我特别喜爱与Vala南瓜农场的父女组合交谈。他们从一小块种植南瓜的土地起步，如今制作馅饼和苹果酒，单日接待量高达两万人。而这样的成长？Square让这一切变得水到渠成。聆听六家崛起中的美国企业故事。

For instance, I absolutely love talking to the father daughter duo behind Vala's Pumpkin Patch. They started with a tiny plot of land growing pumpkins, and now they make pies and ciders and welcome up to 20,000 people in a single day. And that growth? It was made seamless by Square. Hear the journeys of six rising American businesses.

访问square.com/go/built了解更多信息。网址是square.com/go/built。了解Square如何助力您业务腾飞。欢迎回到《我是如何打造这一切》的建议热线。我是盖伊·拉兹，今天的嘉宾是托尼·徐。

Visit square.com/go/built to learn more. That's square.com/go/built. Learn how Square can help your business on the way up. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Tony Hsu.

他是DoorDash的联合创始人兼首席执行官，我们将接听您的来电。现在让我们接入下一位听众。

He's the cofounder and CEO of DoorDash, and we are taking your calls. And let's bring in our next caller.

嗨，盖伊。嗨，托尼。感谢邀请我。我是来自北卡罗来纳州罗利的凯瑟琳·肖，Spring and Mulberry的联合创始人，这是一系列用枣椰甜化的黑巧克力棒品牌。Spring and Mulberry始于一个颠覆性的问题。

Hi, Guy. Hi, Tony. Thanks for having me. I'm Catherine Shaw from Raleigh, North Carolina, and I'm the cofounder of Spring and Mulberry, a line of date sweetened dark chocolate bars. Spring and Mulberry began with a radical question.

甜品能否在不使用精制糖的情况下依然令人满足？

Can sweets be indulgent without refined sugar?

感谢凯瑟琳的来电。欢迎来到节目。

Thank you, Katherine, for calling in. Welcome to the show.

谢谢

Thank

你。所以Spring and Mulberry是一家巧克力公司。你们生产巧克力棒。对吧？我我想。

you. So Spring and Mulberry, it's a chocolate company. You make chocolate bars. Right? I I think.

但你们用的是枣子来增加甜味，而不是蔗糖、玉米糖浆或其他种类的甜味剂。

And but you use dates to sweeten them, not cane sugar or corn syrup or other kinds of of sweeteners.

是的，没错。我们选用枣子是因为它是天然食材，富含抗氧化剂，其含量甚至超过蓝莓，镁元素也比香蕉丰富。

Yes. Correct. We use dates because they're a whole food ingredient. They're full of antioxidants. They actually have more antioxidants than blueberries, more magnesium than bananas.

关键在于枣子富含纤维，纤维能减缓身体对糖分的吸收，降低血糖指数和血糖负荷。

And the key is that they're full of fiber, and fiber helps slow the absorption of sugar in the body, reducing the glycemic index and glycemic load.

另外，我正在浏览你们的网站，发现这些能量棒设计得非常艺术化——比如嵌入整颗草莓干、完整山核桃和芒果块，真的很精美。能聊聊公司的创立灵感或起源故事吗？

Also, I'm looking at your website, and I see that they're very artistic bars. It's like the dried strawberries pressed into the bar and pecans, whole pecans, and, like mango pieces. Really beautiful. Tell me about the idea or the origin story of the company.

这一切始于一次去迪拜的旅程，当时我正要去印度探望丈夫的家人。在那里，我见到了装在精美礼盒中的椰枣。几年后，三十多岁的我不幸被诊断出乳腺癌，这促使我戒掉精制糖，开始探索天然食物的疗愈力量。我想通过巧克力棒展现更广阔的风味世界。

Well, it all started on a trip to Dubai on the way to visit my husband's family in India. There, I discovered dates, presented in elevated and beautiful gift boxes. And a few years later, I unfortunately was diagnosed with breast cancer in my mid-30s. And that led me to quit refined sugar and explore the healing power of whole foods. And I wanted to showcase this wider world of flavor in our chocolate bars.

所以我们会在巧克力表面装饰水果、花卉、坚果和香料，比如桑葚茴香、混合莓果或山核桃椰枣口味；或是用精油浸泡巧克力，创造出薄荷叶、咖啡、血橙这些唤起回忆的风味。

So we either top them with fruits and florals, nuts and spices, with flavors like mulberry fennel or mixed berry or pecan date, or we infuse the chocolate with essential oils, creating nostalgic flavors like mint leaf, coffee, and blood orange.

太棒了。能简单说说你的背景吗？你之前是从事食品或糖果行业的吗？

That's awesome. And what tell me a little bit about your background. Did you come from food or or confections?

我的联合创始人莎拉和我整个职业生涯都在消费品和奢侈品行业工作。她是Harry's Grooming和Siggy's Yogurt的早期员工，负责产品开发、运营和财务工作。而我最初在联合利华从事市场营销和销售，后来去了LVMH集团，即酩悦·轩尼诗-路易·威登。

Both my cofounder Sarah and I have worked in consumer products and luxury goods our whole careers. She was an early employee at Harry's Grooming and at Siggy's Yogurt, working at product development, operations and finance. And I got my start in marketing and sales at Unilever and then at LVMH, Moet Hennessy Louis Vuitton.

是啊，哇哦。这样的背景真是太棒了，我是说，你们...你们或许该用这样的背景来指导我们该怎么做。

Yeah. Wow. That's a great great background to have is I mean, you you you know what maybe you should be telling us what to do with that background.

会有那么一天的，伙计们。

One day, guys.

听起来确实如此。

Sounds like it.

我希望我

I hope I

希望如此。

hope so.

跟我们简单说说业务进展吧。你提到公司是2022年创立的？

Tell tell us a little bit about how the business is doing. You said you started it in 2022?

是的。我们在2022年推出了测试版，同年假期全面上市。我们的业务每年保持两到三倍的增长，现在年收入达到七位数中段。预计2026年将实现翻倍。

We did. We launched in beta in the 2022, launched fully for holiday that year. We've grown two to three x year over year consistently. And now we're doing mid seven figures. We expect to double that in 2026.

我们采用全渠道分销策略，希望入驻全食超市和Sprouts这类天然食品渠道。同时也进军机场、Total Wine、Nordstrom和Bloomingdale's等特色零售商——今年我们已在这些渠道上线。而直销仍占我们业务的50%。

Wow, we have omni channel distribution strategy, we want to be a natural channel grocery stores like Whole Foods and Sprouts. But we also want to be in specialty retailers like airports, Total Wine, Nordstrom's and Bloomingdale's where we've launched this year. And direct to consumer is still 50% of our business.

可能还是利润率最高的渠道。

And probably the best margins.

当然。

Of course.

嗯，很棒。我还有些问题想请教。不过在提问之前，您对我们有什么想问的吗？

Yeah. Cool. I I have more questions for you. Before we get to to them, what is your question for us?

我们正处在关键转折点。迄今为止公司一直盈利，但现在开始感受到快速扩张带来的现金流压力。关于融资类型选择、合作伙伴引入、以及增长与盈利之间的风险权衡——在筹备明年融资时，您会建议采用哪些决策框架来帮助我们做出这些关键决定？

Well, we're really at an inflection point. So far, to date in the business, we've been profitable, but we're now starting to feel the cash flow strains of rapid scaling. I would love to hear from both of you, as we think about what types of capital to raise, which partners to bring on, and how much risk to take in growth versus profitability, what frameworks would you recommend for helping us make those decisions as we fundraise into the next year?

好的，这些问题确实很重要。Tony Shue，我想请你加入讨论。该向Katherine提问了。

Alright. Some big questions to answer. Tony Shue, I wanna bring you in. Questions for Katherine.

是的。凯瑟琳，首先，这真的令人难以置信。你的个人故事，将一次人生经历转化为不仅对你自己，还对许多人来说如此出色的解决方案。看到这一切真是不可思议。当我思考你所说的，我首先想问的是，公司的目标是什么？

Yeah. I mean, Katherine, it's first of all, incredible. Your your personal story, you know, of turning a life event into, you know, this this awesome, you know, solution, not only for yourself, but for a lot of other people. So that's incredible to see. You know, when I think about what you're saying, the first question I kinda wanna ask is, what is the goal with the company?

我们的长期目标确实是帮助改变美国与糖的关系，通过创造一种完全更好的产品来展示甜味不必来自与我们所面临的每种主要疾病相关的东西。我们真正相信可持续、稳定的增长。但在接下来的一年里，为了达到八位数的收入，我们需要在全国范围内推出产品，进入全食超市、Sprouts或其他主要零售商。这需要大量资金。杂货店需要上架费。

Our long term goal is really to help transform America's relationship with sugar, And to do that by creating a product that's wholly better to showcase how sweetness doesn't need to come from something that is linked to every major disease we face. We really believe in kind of sustainable, consistent growth. But in the next year, in order to hit 8 figures, we need to launch nationally, at Whole Foods, Sprouts or other major players. And that just requires a lot of cash. Grocery stores require slotting fees.

他们要求免费铺货，你需要发送免费产品。当然，一旦产品上架，你还需要支持它以确保销售速度强劲。因此，我们目前资金紧张有两个原因。首先是巧克力的季节性。我们必须在夏季购买所有的节日库存，而夏季是巧克力业务最淡的季节。

They require free fills where you send in free product. You, of course, need to support the product once it gets on shelf to make sure you're hitting strong velocities. And so we have two reasons we're in a bit of a cash crunch. The first is just the seasonality of chocolate. We have to buy all of our holiday inventory during summer, which are the slowest months in the chocolate business.

切换到冰

Switch And to ice

然后

then

第二个原因是，进入这些杂货店需要的前期投资。

the second is, you know, the upfront investments to get into these grocery stores.

明白了。好的。不，这非常有帮助。你在问题中一开始就提到了一些正确的原则。我认为这绝对是原则之一。

Got it. Okay. No, that's super helpful. You kind of stated some of the right principles, I think, from the beginning in your question. I think that's definitely, you know, principle number one.

要知道，第二条原则就是你不能在经营企业的过程中失去控制权。而实现第二条不失控原则的最佳方式，实际上就是达成第一条原则——保持发展势头。我通常这么思考：融资问题不必一次性解决。就像我刚才询问过你对公司的目标，听起来这些目标相当宏大。你是希望将业务扩展到全国范围。

And you know, principle number two is you don't wanna lose control in terms of, you know, how you run the business. And you know, the best way to achieve principle number two of not losing control is actually to achieve principle number one, which is to keep up the the momentum. The way I tend to think about this is you don't have to think about the financing kinda question all in one go. Meaning, you know, I asked you a little bit about your goals for the company, and it sounds like they're pretty large actually. You wanna, you know, take this nationwide.

你还希望未来能拓展到其他品类。但你不必在下一轮融资阶段就考虑所有这些长远规划。

You wanna take this into other categories over time. You don't have to think about all of that, you know, in this next financing milestone.

没错。

Right.

保持势头的方法之一，是始终确保兑现给投资者的承诺。如果你能持续兑现承诺，就很可能为顾客创造更好的体验，从而获得更多融资机会。如果能维持这种良性循环，我认为这个过程会非常顺利。所以如果我是你，首先会思考的问题是：下一个里程碑是什么？是进驻你提到的全食超市和Sprouts这类渠道吗？

One of the ways to build momentum is to think about always being able to deliver upon whatever promises you make investors. If you keep, you know, delivering upon those promises, you're gonna keep likely creating better outcomes for customers, which is gonna, you know, give you more opportunities to get more financing. If you can keep, you know, that that expectation again, this process I think would do very well for you. And so the first question I probably think through if I were in your shoes is what is the next milestone? Is it to get to all of the Whole Foods you mentioned, and the Sprouts of the world?

还是说目标要更大？当我们确定这个里程碑后，就可以倒推计算你提到的所有费用，包括产品开发或分销等方面的投入。如果为这些计划预留缓冲空间，情况会怎样？这可能是思考公司达到下一规模所需投资规模的起点。接下来投资者自然会问：我的投资能获得什么回报？根据你的描述，如果能保持两到三倍的稳健增长——顺便说这非常了不起——我相信你会找到很多愿意支持的投资人。

Is it to get to more than that? If we were to think about what that milestone is, then work backwards on all the fees you mentioned, and all the investments perhaps in product development or distribution, And then if you're adding a bit of buffer for some of those plans, you know, what does that look like? You know, that's probably the first starting place in of thinking through what is the investment size you may need to get to the next level of scale for the company. Then the obvious question for investors will be, well, what do I get in exchange for for those dollars? Based on what you're saying, if you can healthily grow two to three times, which which sounds like you are today, which is incredible, by the way, I I think you're gonna I think you're gonna find lots of willing suitors.

是的。我想接着这个话题请教凯瑟琳一个问题：你们已经进行过融资了吗？

Yeah. Yeah. I I wanna I wanna piggyback on that for a second and ask you a quick question, Katherine, which is have you raised money already?

我们在年营收六位数时就完成了种子前轮融资，过去两年用这笔资金将规模发展到七位数中段。投资方主要是行业内的战略天使投资人，但我们尚未接受过风险投资。

We raised a pre seed when we were still a low 6 figure brand and have used that money over the past two years to get to mid 7 figures. Yep. Those were mainly strategic angels, people who had worked in the industry, but we have not raised from venture capital.

明白了。

Got it.

而且我们还没有负债。

And we have not taken debt.

嗯，如你所知，你现在年销售额大约5600万美元，这非常了不起。对吧？现在你需要现金来满足这些需求，所以有几个选择。你比任何人都清楚，不是所有的资金都相同。对吧？

Well, as you know, and you're so let's say you're doing about $56,000,000 a year in sales, which is amazing. Right? You're at a point now where you need cash, right, to to fulfill these so there are a couple of options. You know this better than anyone that that not all money is the same. Right?

我是说，还有其他选择吗？比如信用额度？基于收入的融资，采购订单融资。我们节目中有很多品牌走这条路。他们会拿到采购订单，然后去找贷款人，通常利率很高，但这样能保留股权。

I mean, there's and so is are are there other options, you know, lines of credit? Revenue based financing, purchase order financing. We've had a lot of brands on the show that have gone that route. You know, they'll get a purchase order. They'll go to a you know, find lenders, oftentimes at the high interest rates, but it's but you you hold on to equity.

这些都是选择，如果你决定不去筹集资金的话。不过这些选项中有没有在考虑范围内的？

Those are all options if you decide that you don't wanna go out and raise capital. Are though are any of those on on the table?

对于夏季库存采购的现金流紧张来说，债务确实有意义，因为这不是烧钱速度的问题，而是资金进出时间差的问题。所以我认为债务在这方面很合理。在股权方面，我认为更适合用于零售扩张投资、品牌知名度建设等活动。在债务方面，如果我们不会盈利，我对承担大量债务感到有些不安。

It definitely makes sense for the summer cash flow crunch of buying inventory because, you know, that isn't a burn rate problem. That's when money comes in versus when it goes out. So I think that makes a lot of sense for debt. On the equity side, I would say that would be more appropriate for investing in retail expansion, investing behind brand awareness, building exercises, and that sort of thing. On the debt side, I feel a little bit nervous about taking on significant debt if we're not going to be profitable.

这是我们第一年试图弄清楚如何在盈亏平衡点附近运作。所以我想对托尼提个后续问题：你从世界上一些最负盛名的风险投资公司筹集过资金，你当时问了哪些问题来确保他们是合适的合作伙伴？

And this is the first year where we're kind of trying to figure out how close to zero we could be on either side of zero. So I guess a follow-up question for Tony would be as you, you know, you've raised money from some of the most prestigious venture capital firms in the world. What questions did you ask them to make sure they were the right partner for you?

是的，这是个很好的问题。我认为很多时候我们创业者会理所当然地认为投资者会对我们进行尽职调查，但或许我们却没有反过来对他们做同样的调查。我想补充的一个原则是，在考虑盖伊提到的那些替代性融资机制时，还要思考：作为投资者，对你实现里程碑或收回资金的时间预期是什么？以及你投资组合中或之前投资案例的具体例子有哪些？

Yeah. It's a great question. I think lots of times we take for granted as the entrepreneur that investors will do diligence on us, but perhaps we don't return the favor and do diligence on them. You know, I think one of the principles that I would add to, I think a lot of the great recommendations Guy made around alternate financing mechanisms is just what are the time expectations for, you know, achieving your milestones or getting your money back if you were the investor? And what are the examples in your portfolio of companies or previous investments?

因为时间因素，我认为对创业者来说几乎总是不利的。我们总希望事情能更快推进，而投资者实际上有着完全不同的时间维度。我会要求看看他们投资组合中那些未能成功的创始人案例，并建议联系其中三四个聊聊。这样通过与这些公司创始人——特别是那些与投资机构合作不太成功或关系紧张的创始人交谈，你就能获得更全面的判断，从而决定是否继续合作或寻找其他融资渠道。

Because time, I think, is one of those things here that is almost always against the entrepreneur, Where we always wish things could happen sooner, the investor actually has a completely different, you know, dimension of time. I would ask for examples of founders and entrepreneurs who perhaps did not make it in their portfolio and ask to, you know, call three or four of them. And then you'll get a pretty good triangulation in speaking with, you know, the founders of the company, especially those who maybe had less successful, not successful, or shaky situations with the investment firm to give you maybe the comfort you need to actually proceed or or find other financing mechanisms.

凯瑟琳，这真是非常非常重要的建议，托尼。而且我觉得听起来凯瑟琳你似乎已经清楚自己需要做什么了，对吧？要建立全国分销网络和品牌知名度，你可能需要股权融资。因为你现在是在收入实现前进行投资。如果是短期现金流问题，或许还有其他选择。

Catherine, it's really, really, really important advice, Tony. And I I think that it sounds, Catherine, like you know you sort of have a sense of what you need to do, right, to to to sort of to build distribution, national distribution, brand awareness, you're gonna need equity capital probably. Right? Because you're you're investing ahead of revenue. Short term cash crunch, there may be other options.

我想给你一个不相关的建议，观察你的品牌后我发现：过去几年出现了一些零糖大品牌，比如Lilly's（我们在节目里报道过，是个很棒的故事）。这是个非常有意思的机会。

One one unrelated piece of advice I wanna give you, just observing your brand, is you have a really interesting opportunity here because over the last few years, there have been some really big brands that have grown that are zero sugar. Lilly's, for example. We did Lilly's on the show. It's an amazing story. Yeah.

Lilly's后来被好时收购了。还有做类似产品的ChocZero。而你现在做的是含糖产品。在考虑长期增长战略时，你可以想想推出小方块包装——就像吉拉德利那种小方块巧克力。

And that was sold to Hershey's. There's ChocZero, which does a similar thing. And then you've got, you know, the sugar brands. One thing that you could think about as you think about the sort of your long term growth and strategy is consider making a a package of, like, squares. You know, like Ghirardelli makes those squares.

这样每块只含1-2克糖，既是小份享受，价格也更亲民。可能只要75美分或1美元就能在收银台买到。毕竟你的巧克力棒属于高端产品，定价较高。

And so you're only getting one, two grams of sugar per square, and it's a small indulgence, and it's a it's also less expensive. Maybe maybe it's only 75¢ or dollar, you know, at the checkout stand. Right? Because your bars are expensive. They have to it's a premium product.

但未来你可以考虑推出袋装小方块巧克力，以后还能在Costco销售，因为这才是真正能实现大规模增长的渠道。

But but going forward, you might wanna think about a bag of just squares that you could down the road sell at Costco because that's really where you start to see big, you know, large scale growth.

没错。而且它让人们有机会在购买前先尝试，比如7美元或9美元的巧克力棒。

Right. And it gives the opportunity for people to trial before they buy, you know, a 7 or $9 chocolate bar.

是啊。托尼，对凯瑟琳还有什么最后的智慧建议吗？

Yeah. Yeah. Tony, any last words of wisdom or advice for Katherine?

听起来你的事业非常棒。而且你头脑清醒，见解独到。我会说，继续坚持下去。从你提出的问题可以看出，你对自己想要什么、不想要什么有很明确的观点，坚持这些原则就好。

Sounds like you have a really awesome business. And so, I I mean and you have a, I mean, a really great head on your shoulders. I would just, you know, keep going. And I can tell based on the questions you're asking that you have a pretty strong point of view of what you're looking for and what you're not looking for. Just stick to those guns.

我认为，很多时候，作为初次创业或踏入陌生领域的创业者，总会有寻求专家意见的冲动。虽然有时这确实有帮助，但多数情况下，你的直觉可能已经知道答案了。

And I I I think that a lot of times as, you know, the entrepreneur going through it for the first time or going into anything less familiar, there's always this desire to seek the expert opinion, if you will. And sometimes that helps, but I think a lot of times, your gut probably already knows the answer.

确实如此。Spring and Mulberry的凯瑟琳·肖，感谢来电。祝你好运。

For sure. Katherine Shaw of Spring and Mulberry, thanks for calling in. Good luck.

谢谢，感激不尽。

Thank you. Appreciate it.

谢谢。是的，我们在节目中介绍过不少巧克力品牌，每次都觉得很酷。总是超级酷。你知道，在这些品类中，你可能会觉得市场已经很拥挤了。

Thank you. Yeah. It's we have done quite a few chocolate brands on the show, and it's always just a cool. It's always super cool. You know, you think, like, in all these categories, you think, oh, well, it's crowded.

市面上有很多巧克力品牌，确实如此。但像这样的优质品牌，一个独具特色的品牌。

There's so many chocolate brands, and there are. But a good brand, a a a differentiated brand like this one.

我肯定会去实体店看看。对，很可能买一块犒劳自己。

I'm absolutely gonna go into And it would stores. And, yeah, and probably buy one and, you know, indulge myself.

没错。那些包装设计简直是艺术品，精美的巧克力棒。这个创意很棒，虽然它不是无糖的，但是...

Yeah. I mean, just really beautiful art just artful, beautiful bars. And so it's it's cool. It's a great idea. And it's not it's not sugar free, but it's Right.

它的含糖量较低

It's lower It's

天然糖分。

natural sugar.

而且含有纤维。我看了营养成分表，四克纤维量很高，你知道...

And it's and there's fiber. And so I think I looked at the nutritional label. Four grams of fiber, it's a lot of fiber. I mean, that's, you know

是啊，太棒了。

Yeah. That's great.

好的。我们将短暂休息一下，稍后继续接听下一位听众来电。请别走开。我是盖伊·拉兹，您正在收听的是《创业经验线》栏目。有没有过这样的下午，你的大脑突然罢工？

Alright. We're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the Advice Line right here on how I built this lab. Ever had one of those afternoons where your brain just quits on you?

你感到迟钝、饿怒，甚至有点迷糊。如果是血糖问题呢？要知道，葡萄糖是身心运转的能量货币。当它稳定时，你状态绝佳；当它骤降时，你也可能崩溃。

You're sluggish, hangry, maybe even a little foggy. What if it's your glucose? See, glucose is an energy currency for your mind and body. When it's stable, you're on point. When it crashes, so can you.

这就是Lingo的独特之处。这款血糖监测可穿戴设备，能帮你理清饮食、运动与感受之间的血糖关联。它实时显示血糖数据，让你直观看到每个选择的影响——或许那份健康零食正让你的血糖坐过山车，而午后散步才是完美稳定器。

That's why Lingo is so interesting. Lingo is a glucose wearable designed to help you connect the dots between your glucose and what you eat, how you move, and how you feel. It shows your glucose data in real time. Instead of guessing, you see the impact of your choices. Maybe that healthy snack is actually sending your glucose on a roller coaster or that afternoon walk is the perfect stabilizer.

通过理解身体的独特反应，解锁全天候最佳状态。使用雅培设计的Lingo了解你的血糖，建立适合你的健康习惯。11月30日前登陆hellolingo.com，输入优惠码guy10可享Lingo套餐九折优惠（每位顾客限用一次，不可与其他优惠同享，仅限美国、波多黎各和英国）。Lingo血糖系统适用于18岁以上非胰岛素使用者。

It's about unlocking your consistent best all day long by truly understanding your body's unique responses. Get to know your glucose and learn about how to build healthy habits that work for you with Lingo, designed for you by Abbott. Through November 30, use code guy 10 on hellolingo.com to get 10% off a Lingo plan purchase, one use per customer. This offer cannot be combined with other offers, US, Puerto Rico, and UK only. The Lingo Glucose System is for users 18 years and older, not on insulin.

本产品不用于诊断糖尿病等疾病，个体反应可能存在差异。AI公司拥有独特的商业模式，各有不同的结算需求。从初创企业到规模化公司，Stripe是AI领域领导者的首选——无论是OpenAI按用户需求提供分级方案，还是Cursor为代码访问设计灵活结算体系，重塑未来需要精密的商业模式。

It is not intended for diagnosis of diseases including diabetes. Individual responses may vary. AI companies have unique business models, each with distinct billing needs. Stripe is the go to choice for AI leaders from early stage startups to scaled enterprises. Whether it's OpenAI offering tiered plans based on user needs or Cursor implementing flexible billing structures for code access, redefining the future requires sophisticated business models.

通过Stripe结算系统，你可以支持从信用预付到销售议价合约的任何商业模式，轻松实现盈利策略与客户价值的匹配。加入78%《福布斯》AI50强企业及全球数百万企业的行列，用Stripe构建更盈利、可扩展的业务。详情请访问stripe.com。欢迎回到《创业经验线》，我是盖伊·拉兹，今天的嘉宾是DoorDash联合创始人兼CEO徐托尼。

With Stripe Billing, you can support any business model from credit based to sales negotiated contracts and easily align your monetization strategy with customer value. Join the ranks of 78% of the Forbes AI 50 and millions of businesses worldwide that trust Stripe to help them build more profitable, scalable businesses. Discover more at stripe.com. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Tony Hsu.

我们将接听您的来电，现在有请下一位听众。

He's the cofounder and CEO of DoorDash, and we are taking your calls. And let's bring in our next caller.

谢谢邀请，尤里。我是从康涅狄格州斯坦福德打来的。我是Route twenty two Meets的创始人、运营者和投资者。过去二十年里，我在早期科技公司担任过各种职务。Route twenty two Meats是一家使命驱动的公司，旨在弥合小型家庭农场与有意识的消费者之间的鸿沟。

Thanks for having me, Yori. I'm calling from, Stanford, Connecticut. I'm the founder, operator, investor of Route twenty two Meets. For the past twenty years, I've been in early stage technology companies in various roles. And Route twenty two Meats is a mission driven company that was created to bridge the gap between small family farms and conscious consumers.

我们配送来自小型家庭农场的草饲草终肉类，全程可追溯至原产地农场。

We ship grass fed and grass finished meats from small family farms with full traceability back to the farm where it was raised.

好的。感谢来电，尤里。欢迎来到节目。所以Route或Roots（取决于发音），Route twenty two meats，你们主要销售草饲肉类，对吧？类似那种礼盒。

Great. Thanks for, calling in, Yori. Welcome to the show. So route or roots, depending on your pronunciation, route twenty two meats, it is a you sell grass fed meat, basically. Like a That is box.

没错。

That is correct.

并且是冷冻直邮给消费者。

And and shipped directly to consumers frozen.

正是如此。

That's right.

我猜是这样。

I'm assuming.

没错。

That's right.

好的，太棒了。然后，能稍微讲讲你是怎么开始这个生意的吗？

Okay. Great. And and tell me a little bit about how you started this this business.

我创办这个生意是因为我个人在寻找某种产品时找不到符合要求的。这是原因之一。第二个原因是我曾花了八年时间管理一家医疗器械公司的美国业务，亲眼目睹了医疗体系的现状及其缺陷。我想成为解决方案的一部分，弥合优质、清洁食品与有意识消费者之间的鸿沟。

I started this business because I personally was looking for the product and could not find the product that I was looking for. That's one one reason. The second reason I spent eight years managing The US operations of a medical device company, and I was exposed firsthand for the healthcare system and saw how broken it is. And I want to be a part of the solution. Wanted to that gap between quality, clean food, if you will, and conscious consumers.

明白了。好的。但我的问题是这样的——我觉得这真的很棒。

Got it. Okay. But here's my question. Right? And and I think it's awesome.

我超爱草饲牛肉，只要可能我基本上95%的时间都会选择它。市面上确实有选择对吧？有很多公司提供在线订购草饲肉送货上门服务，甚至超市里也有。

I I love grass fed beef. I try to eat it basically 95% of the time when I can. There are options out there. Right? There are companies, tons of options where you can order online, get grass fed meat sent to your house, even grocery stores.

比如好市多(Costco)我记得也卖草饲牛肉馅。所以你们试图提供的独特价值究竟是什么？

Many you know, even Costco sells grass fed ground beef, I think. So what what is the thing that you're you're trying to offer that's still different?

从基础层面说，我们提供的是全程农场溯源服务。比如你收到的包装盒里有不同部位肉块，每个肉块都有独立标签标明来源农场。我们只与小规模家庭农场合作。你提到的现象正是行业痛点——虽然越来越多人意识到草饲肉的健康益处，但目前对'草饲'并没有明确的法规定义标准。

So at the at the basic level, what we offer is full traceability to the farm. So, you know, you can get a box with different cuts and every cut is gonna have a different label. And you can see which farm it came from. Okay, we don't work with big farms, it's small family farms on that level. Now, what you mentioned is part of the challenge, is because there is a trend and a lot of more people become aware of the health benefits of grass fed and grass finished meats, but there is no clear regulation that constitutes what grass fed meat is.

美国农业部在2016年取消了这一标准定义。所以实际上，你可以在超市货架上找到未必符合草饲与草饲育肥标准的产品。

The USDA dropped that definition in 2016. So essentially you can go to the supermarket, find on the shelf a product that not necessarily meet the standards of grass fed and grass finished.

有意思。这就像你看到标榜'全天然'的商品一样。对吧？其实毫无意义。明白了。

Interesting. It's sort of like when you see things that'll say all natural. Right. It means nothing. Alright.

在请托尼加入讨论前，你今天对我们有什么问题？

Before I bring Tony in, what's your question for us today?

想问托尼的问题是：鉴于我们的规模和资源，如何才能在市场上最有效地教育消费者并脱颖而出？毕竟大公司可以用资金碾压我们，却无法匹敌我们的真实草饲肉品、全程可追溯体系、再生农业标准及真正的草饲育肥肉类。

The question for Tony is like, given our size and resources, how can we most effectively educate consumers and stand out in a market where larger player can outspend us but cannot match our authenticity, full traceability, regenerative standards, and true grass fed and grass finished meats?

好的。托尼·徐，在回答尤里的问题前，或许你有些问题要问他？

Alright. Tony Hsu, you can before we answer Yuri's question, maybe you have some questions for him.

尤里，或许我可以先分享个想法。首先作为消费者，我非常认同你们的事业。听你讲述时，我注意到你强调为初期产品找到正确客户群的重要性——显然是那些与你们价值观高度契合的人群。首先我想说的是，千万别丢失这个核心。

Well, maybe I'll I'll start with a thought, Yuri. And first, you know, as a as a consumer, I'm a big believer in what you're doing. One of the things as I hear you talk about is this importance of finding the right customer for your initial product. And obviously, it's someone who cares deeply about the same things that you do. And the the the so the first thing I I almost want you to say is to not lose that.

我认为存在两大挑战：第一是能否打造出真正兑现你所承诺价值的产品；第二是如何进行市场营销，既能真实地提升认知度，又能与资金更雄厚的竞争者形成差异化。我们必须确保这个产品能真正触动人心——不仅是草饲可追溯，更重要的是要美味可口。

I think there's two challenges I see. One is, can you build a product that that truly delivers upon, you know, the promise that you're talking about. And then the second is how do you actually market it so it can actually maybe grow an awareness in a way that is authentic, but also I think differentiated from, you know, others who can outspend you. We really have to make sure that it's a product that people actually care about. Meaning, it's not only grass fed and it's traceable to your point, but that it actually tastes good.

而且它要与现有产品同样好，或理想情况下更优。我认为这是我们接受评判的重要标准。其次，我们是否能与那部分客户群体合作，共同确定一个术语，可以说，为这类产品或你提供给客户的高质量原料建立某种标准？你提到美国农业部可能还不是一个愿意合作的伙伴，这没关系。

And that it's as good or ideally better than what's available. You know, I think that's a big part of what how we get judged. Then the second piece is almost like, can we can we work together with that group of customers to figure out what is a term we can use to almost, you know, build a standard if you will, for the type of product or the quality ingredient that you're actually bringing to the customer? You mentioned that, you know, maybe the USDA is is not yet a willing partner. That's okay.

但是否存在某个术语，能被你的忠实客户群体反复认可并选择你的产品而非其他？我们可以借此来讲述品牌故事。从客户视角叙述总是比我们自说自话更自然，也更能促进口碑传播的病毒式增长。

But is there some term that almost the community of customers that you have that comes back and again and purchase your product over others that we can then use as actually the way to tell our story? It's always best to tell the story from the customer's perspective versus our perspective because it's a lot more natural and promotes that viral word-of-mouth growth.

Yori，我很好奇。能否透露下你们目前的营收情况？你提到公司去年成立，至今销售额大概达到多少了？

Yori, I'm I'm curious. Give give us a sense of your revenue so far. You've you've I think you mentioned you founded last year. How how much how much have you done sales so far?

我们预计在运营满十二个月时能达到约10万美元。

So we're we are probably gonna finish the twelve months of operation about 100 k.

非常不错。

That's great.

我们在一个农业社区购置了厂房。

We bought the building in a farming community.

太棒了。

It's awesome.

但有趣的是，这里曾经是麦当劳的建筑。我们翻修后，现在用作配送中心。今年晚些时候，我们计划将其转型为农产品商店，吸引更多农民来销售他们的产品——因为农民擅长耕作，但冷链供应链、电子商务等复杂环节并非他们所长。我们想搭建一个平台，让他们的产品能真正触达全国各地的消费者。

But funny enough, used to be a McDonald's building. We fixed the building and now it's being used as a distribution center. And later on this year, we intended to turn into a farm store and bring more farmers to sell their products because farmers are good at farming, but they don't, you know, cold supply chain is something that is complex, e commerce and things like that. So we wanna build the platform that will enable them actually to make their product available to people across the country.

托尼，你们是否能洞察到某些趋势？比如在DoorDash平台上，虽然我知道有健康食品选项和各种分类，但你们是否观察到人们更关注生酮饮食或草饲肉类？这类数据你们能追踪到吗？

Tony, are you finding that that I mean, I know that on DoorDash, you know, there's healthy options. There's a bunch of there's a bunch of different categories. Are you guys able to discern any trends? Like, are are you seeing people looking out for more sort of keto focused diets or grass fed? I mean, is there a way for you to even know that?

是的。我们会分析搜索关键词，确实能清晰看到用户的搜索行为倾向。你说得没错。

Yeah. Well, we look at search terms. Right. And so we definitely, you know, see search behavior. And you're right.

尽管存在地域差异，但宏观趋势与尤里你正在构建的方向一致——全民健康意识在提升。除了运动，营养饮食显然是重要组成部分。DoorDash用户确实在寻找这类替代选项。关键就像生火，初期最重要的是保持火种不灭，而这需要依靠 passionate 的群体，无论是健身爱好者还是特定饮食的追求者。

I mean, I think while there are geographic differences, think the mega or macro trend is still on point to what Yuri, you're building, which is everyone wants to be healthier. And that's, you know, there's exercise, but obviously nutrition and diet is a massive part of it. And so on DoorDash, people do look for these other options. And I think the key is, it's almost like you're building this fire, right? And the most important thing is for that fire to keep burning in the beginning, and it's gonna keep burning if you have the group of passionate people, whether it's, you know, the fitness enthusiasts, the people who are searching for this.

也可能是那些真正重视清洁供应链食材的餐饮从业者。要让这团火持续燃烧，核心在于产品必须兼具真实性、纯净度和绝佳口感。只有当用户自发回购、口碑传播时，你才有资格将平台扩展成覆盖全国乃至全球农场的革命性项目。

It could be the restaurateur who really appreciates, you know, food from very clean supply chains. And I think as that fire, you know, it keeps going, the way it's gonna keep going is a, they actually love your product. So I think it has to be both authentic, clean, and it tastes great. Mhmm. And, you know, will they actually wanna keep coming back to it, talking about it, and then that gives you the right to, you know, build this huge, you know, explosion of a movement, which then allows you to build this platform into, you know, for all farms across the country, the world, perhaps one day to do this.

是的，这非常棒。

Yeah. That's that's great.

尤里，最后给你个建议：精心选择一两个播客访谈，或在图书馆做场公开演讲，效果远胜花几千美元投Facebook广告。如果能深入探讨草饲肉类的多元价值和你产品的独特性，哪怕听众只有500人，也可能产生裂变式传播——因为你的生意本质是靠口口相传，当人们开始互相推荐'我在某处买到超棒的肉'时，效果就出来了。

And, Yori, one last bit of advice. I think I think a a one or two well placed podcast interviews, right, or, you know, or or even a public talk at a library or something is is much better than thousands of dollars spent on Facebook ads. Right? Because if you can spend time talking about about these issues and why you believe that grass fed is that it means many different things and that what you're offering is different, it would be worth having even if it's a podcast, it's only heard by a thousand people or 500 people, it it could have a really significant impact because it's your business is the kind of business that grows through word-of-mouth. It's people saying to other people, I'm getting this great meat from this place.

是的，是的。我们应该继续努力，并扩展到其他社区。

Yeah. Yeah. We should, keep going at it and, reaching out to other communities.

尤里·加贝，品牌名为Grout二十二号肉类。祝你好运。感谢来电，伙计。

Yori Gabbay, the brand is called Grout twenty two Meats. Good luck. Thanks for calling in, man.

谢谢。非常感谢。

Thank you. Thanks.

是的，这很有趣，因为即使我对这个领域了解很多——毕竟我吃草饲肉类已有很长时间，大概十五年。我以前从爱达荷州的一个农场订购。我并不知道，我原以为人们说的草饲就是全程草饲。

Yeah. It's it's it's interesting because I think even even though I know a lot about this world because I I I've been eating grass fed meat for a long time, like, probably fifteen years. I used to order from a a farm out in Idaho. I didn't know that. I I I assume that when people say grass fed, it's grass fed.

就像，动物全程都在吃草那样。

Like, that's what their the animal's eating the whole time.

不，我认为这...我经常思考，从我们的身体开始，再到我们摄入的东西，我们往往视为理所当然，或者不去深究。我觉得你说得完全正确。实际上，在社会乃至食品行业中存在巨大空白，像尤里这样的人正可以填补这个空间来为我们定义标准。你的观点一针见血。

No. I think it's a I I think a lot about well, starting with our bodies, and then, you know, to the things we put into our bodies, I think we kinda just take for granted, or we don't think about it. And I I think you're absolutely right. Actually, there is a massive void in society and but but also in in the in in the food industry where someone like Yuri can actually occupy that space to define it for us. You're you're you're spot on.

我是说，关于可追溯性这一点，我也是直到几年前才有所了解。

I mean, this the traceability point is one that I I I didn't know about until probably a couple years ago.

是啊是啊。而且，在这个领域，某些食品品牌确实能产生巨大影响。比如Chipotle餐厅的钻石牧场猪肉，对吧？

Yeah. Yeah. And and, you know, in in this space, I mean, food certain I mean, certain brands can have a huge impact. I mean, Chipotle with Diamond Ranch Pork. I mean right?

我是说

Mean

完全同意。

Absolutely.

当你能以可持续的方式扩大规模时，就能产生巨大影响。草饲牛肉目前占比还不到全美牛肉消费量的1%，可能更低。但随着越来越多人了解其好处，这个领域增长空间很大。

They they when you can sort of scale this in a sustainable way, it can have a huge impact. And, you know, grass fed beef is still it's gotta be less than 1%. May maybe even smaller than that of all beef consumed in The US. Yeah. But as more and more people kinda learn about the benefits, you know, it's there there's there's a lot of growth there.

没错，百分之百赞同。

Yeah. A 100%.

托尼，我早该知道你的建议会这么棒。太惊人了。毕竟你经历过所有这些阶段——融资困境、产品线扩展难题、如何让大众接受这种当时看来很新奇的事物等等。等等，什么？

Tony, I should have known that your advice would be great. Amazing. I mean, you've been you've been through versions of all these things, Like, the dilemma over fundraising, over how to expand your, you know, your your line, you know, how to build awareness of this thing that it was weird to people. Wait. What?

明白吗？这真的很神奇，因为就在不久前你还在处理这些问题。

You know? So, I mean, it's it's amazing because it wasn't that long ago when you were having these these conversations.

是啊，十二年前。我想说的是，作为企业家的一种特权就是——无论是通过这类节目公开地，还是潜移默化地——你属于一个由其他创始人组成的社群，他们诚实地经历着相似的问题，无论是做巧克力的、刀具的，还是像Yori那样经营肉类的，这些问题都非常相似。我的意思是，你是一位创始人，你也经历过这些类似的问题。

Yeah. Twelve years ago. I mean, I I think one of the things that is a privilege of being an entrepreneur is that implicitly, and I suppose with shows like this explicitly, you belong to a community of other founders who honestly go through the similar problems, whether it's in chocolates or knives or, you know, what Yori was doing with meats, and it's just they're very similar. I mean, you're a founder and and, you know, you've gone through these similar issues too.

如果你能回到那个时候，你知道的，那些早期岁月，看着那段视频，你和安迪还有斯坦

If you could go back to when, you know, those early days looking at that video, you and and and Andy and Stan

多尴尬啊。

How embarrassing.

不会啊，那视频棒极了。你应该为它感到非常自豪。如果你回顾过去的话。

It's not. It's awesome. It's an awesome video. You should you should you should be really proud of it. If you go back.

对吧？

Right?

是啊。

Yeah.

而对于当时的你来说，当你正在学习如何成为一名领导者、如何创业时，如果你那时就知道现在所知道的一切，你觉得哪些知识会对当时的你有所帮助？

And to you, to yourself when you were learning how to be a leader and how to, you know, and how to start a business, and you knew what you know now, what what do you think might have been helpful for you to have known then?

我想首先浮现在脑海中的是，尤其是刚才听到你们节目中一些创始人的故事时，很多时候创始人其实已经知道他们寻求帮助的问题的答案。这种认知让我意识到，那些创造出伟大产品的人——你提到了很多这样的例子——与那些打进电话咨询各种创业问题的创始人并无不同。这正是我希望十二年前的自己能明白的：相信自己的直觉，把想法写下来以免陷入妄想，并以此作为理智诚实的依据与提供帮助的人辩论。我会格外强调这些方法。你问我动力来源或经验教训，很多都来自我的团队。

I think the first thing that comes to mind, especially as I was hearing some of the stories of of the founders on your show just now is, a lot of times the founders know the answers to the questions that they're seeking help on. And it's this recognition that other people, and you cited so many of them, you know, who've created great products, were no different from any of the founders who are calling into your show and trying to get advice about all these different business building questions. And that's something that I that I wish I would tell myself, you know, twelve years ago that trusting my own instincts, writing things down so I wasn't delusional, and I can use that as a very intellectually honest exercise to debate with whoever I was trying to get help from. I think those sorts of things, I would just put extra emphasis on. And you asked me, you know, sometimes where I gain sources of motivation or lessons learned, a lot of it comes from my own team.

观察他们的行动、成功与挫折，并从中汲取经验。

And watching what they do, their successes, their setbacks, and, you know, deriving lessons from them.

太棒了。托尼，非常感谢你再次做客节目。

That's awesome. Tony, thank you so much for coming back on.

是的。盖伊，谢谢邀请我。

Yeah. Thanks, Guy, for having me.

这位是DoorDash联合创始人兼CEO托尼·徐。顺便说一句，如果你还没听过托尼最初在《How I Built This》的访谈，一定要去补听。我们会在节目备注里放上链接。非常感谢大家本周收听节目，请务必关注我的时事通讯。

That's Tony Hsu, cofounder and CEO of DoorDash. And by the way, if you haven't heard Tony's original How I Built This episode, you gotta go back and give it a listen. We will put a link to it in the show notes. Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter.

你可以免费在guyraz.com注册订阅。每周内容都充满企业家们的真知灼见，以及我采访史上最杰出创业者时的观察体会。如果你正在创业并希望参与节目，请发送一分钟语音说明你的业务和需要帮助的问题——希望我们能提供支持。记得留下联系方式。可以通过语音邮件发送至hibt@id.Wondery.com，或致电+1 804331298留言。

You can sign up for it for free at guyraz.com. Each week, it's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at hibt@id.Wondery.com or call us at +1 804331298 and leave a message there.

这些信息也会放在播客描述中。本期节目由凯莉·汤普森制作，音乐由鲁姆蒂娜和路易创作，安德烈娅·布鲁斯编辑，音频工程师西娜·拉弗雷多。制作团队还包括亚历克斯·钟、卡拉·埃斯特维斯、凯西·赫尔曼、克里斯·马西尼、拉梅尔·伍德、山姆·保尔森、内瓦·格兰特和伊莱恩·科茨。我是盖伊·拉兹，您正在收听的是《How I Built This》。

And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Carrie Thompson with music composed by Rumtina and Louie. It was edited by Andrea Bruce, and our audio engineer was Sina Laffredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, Chris Massini, Ramel Wood, Sam Paulson, Neva Grant, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.

如果你喜欢《我是如何打造这一切》节目，现在加入Wondery Plus会员即可在Wondery应用或Apple Podcasts上提前无广告收听。Prime会员可在Amazon Music上享受无广告收听。离开前，请访问wondery.com/survey填写简短问卷告诉我们您的收听体验。

If you like How I Built This, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com/survey.