独家更新：震惊美食界的大厨为何再度改变方向——Eleven Madison Park的丹尼尔·胡姆

Wondery Plus订阅用户现在就可以提前无广告收听《我是如何打造这一切》节目。立即在Wondery应用或Apple播客中订阅Wondery Plus。我最近在国外旅行时住进了一家超棒的Airbnb公寓，那间公寓不仅装潢精美，而且地理位置极佳。简直太棒了，我会反复入住的。

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to how I built this early and ad free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. I recently stayed in an amazing Airbnb apartment on a trip abroad, and the apartment I stayed at was beautiful and just so centrally located. It was amazing. I will go there again and again.

你是否曾在Airbnb的床上躺着刷手机时突然意识到：等等，我是不是也能当房东？正是无数房东萌生的这个念头，让我得以在世界各地的美丽居所中找到家的感觉。你的房子可能比你想象的更值钱，立即登录airbnb.com/host估算收益。

Have you ever been lying in bed at an Airbnb, maybe scrolling through your phone when you realize, wait a minute. Could I do this too? Hosts asking that question has allowed me to feel at home in beautiful places around the world. Your home is probably worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host.

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Enjoy Audible anytime while you're doing other things, household chores, exercising while you're on the road, or commuting. You name it. Audible makes it easy to be inspired and entertained as part of your everyday routine without needing to set aside extra time. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free thirty day Audible trial, and your first audiobook is free.

《我是如何打造这一切》由Ring赞助播出。Ring让你随时随地守护家园——从可视门铃摄像头助你明察秋毫，到智能功能让你知悉更多，再到连接万物的应用程序。电池门铃的全方位视频让你对门前动态尽收眼底，昼夜无休记录一切，并通过智能识别准确区分访客与包裹，所有功能尽在Ring应用。

Visit audible.com/built. How I Built This is supported by Ring. With Ring, you can be there from anywhere, with doorbells and cameras that help you see more, to exciting features that help you know more, to the app that lets you connect more. See more at the front door, up high, and down low with battery doorbells head to toe video. Capture it all, all day and all night, and get smarter alerts that know the difference between a person and a package right in the Ring app.

我经常用Ring在外出办事时查看爱犬状况，确保一切安好。最棒的是无论它在屋里哪个角落我都能看见。Ring让你随时随地查看家中情况。部分功能需订阅服务且仅限特定设备使用，详情参见排除条款。登录ring.com了解更多。

I use Ring to check-in on my dog when I'm out of the house or running errands just to make sure everything's okay. It's awesome because I can see her wherever she's in the house. With Ring, you can check-in and be there from anywhere. Some features require a subscription and are available only on select Ring devices. Exclusions apply.

大家好，欢迎收听《我是如何打造这一切》实验室版块，我是盖伊·拉兹。通常这个时段我们会播放《打造建议热线》节目，下周它将如期回归。

Learn more at ring.com. Hey, everyone. Welcome to how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. So normally in this slot, we have an episode of the How I Built This Advice Line, which will be back next week.

但今天我们要更新几年前讲述的一个故事，节目备注中会附上原采访链接，非常值得一听。你可能还记得对纽约Eleven Madison Park传奇主厨丹尼尔·胡姆的专访，他在2021年通过本节目宣布餐厅将全面停用动物制品。

But today, we've got an update to a story we told a few years back, and we'll put a link to the original interview in the show notes, which is well worth hearing. Anyway, you might remember the interview with Daniel Hoom, the legendary chef at 11 Madison Park in New York City. In that conversation, he announced on this show in 2021 that he would no longer use any animal products at the restaurant.

我认为我们都有机会退后一步重新审视，或许能更深刻地思考我们对环境的影响——包括食材采购方式、食品消费模式以及肉类食用习惯。当前的肉类消费是不可持续的。

I think we've all been able to take a step back and sort of reevaluate and in a way maybe be a little bit more thoughtful also about the impact to our surroundings and the way we have sourced our food, the way we're consuming our food, the way we eat meat. It is not sustainable.

这一声明震撼了高端餐饮界。为何？因为Eleven Madison Park是全球最具标志性的顶级餐厅之一。2017年它曾获评世界最佳餐厅，自2012年起每年都保持米其林三星荣誉。

That announcement rocked the world of fine dining. Why? Well, because Eleven Madison Park is one of the most iconic and celebrated restaurants in the world. In 2017, it was actually named the world's greatest restaurant. It's been awarded three Michelin stars every year since 2012.

当丹尼尔宣布那个决定时，许多人认为他疯了。在此之前，米其林——想必你也知道，它是高端餐饮界最具影响力的权威——从未将三星授予一家纯素食餐厅。麦迪逊公园十一号改变了这一局面，成为史上首家获得令人垂涎的三星评级的纯植物基餐厅。为了让你更直观地理解：全球估计有1500万家餐厅，但获得米其林三星的不足160家。而在美国，仅有16家。

And when Daniel made that announcement, many people thought he was crazy. Up until that point, Michelin, which as you probably know, is the most influential force in fine dining, had never awarded three stars to a purely vegan restaurant. Eleven Madison Park changed that and became the first ever purely plant based spot to win the coveted three star designation. Now to put this in perspective, it's estimated that there are 15,000,000 restaurants in the world, but fewer than a 160 have three Michelin stars. In The US, there are just 16.

这家简称EMP的餐厅似乎正在开辟一条重要道路。尽管这些高端餐厅只占餐饮机构的极小部分，它们对行业却有着超乎寻常的影响力。就像你看到巴黎时装周视频时会想'谁会穿那种衣服？'，结果一年后就在H&M看到它的平价版本。EMP曾以薰衣草釉面鸭和黄油煮龙虾闻名。

And EMP, as the restaurant is known, seem to be blazing an important trail. Because even though these fine dining restaurants account for just a small fraction of food establishments, they have outsized influence on the industry. Sort of like how you might see a video of a Paris fashion show and wonder, who wears that? Only to see a version of it in H and M a year later. EMP was famous for its lavender glazed duck and butter poached lobster.

它供应最顶级的鹅肝酱和鱼子酱。但一夜之间，丹尼尔和他的整个厨师团队不得不重新学习如何在不使用半釉汁、黄油、奶油或任何动物制品的情况下，保持最高水准的烹饪。他们前往日本，发现了各种新食材，比如主要产自日本的柏树种子'吨布里'，其口感味道酷似鱼子酱。他们必须学会仅用植物原料制作糕点和千层面包。但这个转变并非没有争议。

It served the finest foie gras and caviar. But overnight, Daniel and his entire culinary team had to essentially relearn how to cook at the highest level without demi glace and butter and cream or anything that came from an animal. They visited Japan and discovered all kinds of new ingredients, things like tonburi, which is a seed from a cypress tree found mainly in Japan that tastes and feels like caviar. They had to learn how to make pastries and laminated breads using only plant based ingredients. But the move didn't come without some controversy.

业内许多人认为此举带有政治色彩，一些老主顾感到被排斥，觉得餐厅变成了纯素食者的专属领地。部分反对声音让丹尼尔倍感压力。他坚称自己从未想过人们会把这个决定视为创意转型之外的任何东西。当然，这对餐厅的盈利确实产生了影响。纽约经营成本极高，而纯植物料理需要更多人手和工序才能呈现惊艳效果——这正是EMP夜复一夜所做到的。

Plenty of people in the industry perceived the move as political, and some longtime patrons felt excluded, like the restaurant was just for plant based eaters. Some of that pushback was hard for Daniel. He insists he never even imagined people would see the move as anything other than a creative shift. And, of course, it did have an impact on the restaurant's bottom line. New York is a very expensive place to run a business, and it turns out working with just plants is also more expensive because it requires more staff and more work to turn the food into something spectacular, which is what EMP managed to do night after night.

现在要订到位子仍然很难。但要让经济账算得过来，你需要那些同时消费昂贵勃艮第和香槟的高端客户。而这些顾客——尤其在纽约——几乎总想搭配些肉食。经过大量思考和重新构想，丹尼尔·休姆和他的团队决定再次转型。蔬菜仍将是核心。

It's still hard to get a table there. But to make the economics work, you need high rollers, patrons who are also drinking expensive bottles of burgundy and champagne. And those patrons, especially in New York, almost always want some meat as well. So after a lot of thinking and reimagining, Daniel Hume and his team decided to evolve once again. Vegetables will still be front and center.

菜单90%仍保持植物基，但会恢复少量非植物菜品。丹尼尔想回到节目解释他的思考过程，以及为何植物基转型从根本上永久改变了他的烹饪理念。不过首先，我请他回顾最初转向植物基的原因。

90% of the menu will stay plant based, but a few non plant based items will come back. Daniel wanted to return to the show to explain his thinking and why going plant based has fundamentally changed everything about his cooking forever. But first, I asked him to go back to the reasons why he went plant based in the first place.

在成为世界最佳餐厅并保持米其林三星十年后，我们登上了全球第一的宝座。而我开始感到创作上的倦怠，设计菜品时仿佛在原地打转。我们做过韭葱龙虾，又做南瓜龙虾...作为创作者，这种感觉不够突破性。

After becoming the best restaurant in the world and having had three Michelin stars for a decade, we reached the number one spot in the world. And I started to feel a little restless creatively. I felt like I was sort of going in circles when we created our dishes. It felt we were repeating a lot. We did the lobster with leeks, and then we did the lobster with butternut squash and then we did but it was sort of like as a creative it didn't quite feel like groundbreaking.

本该是巅峰的时刻却有些空虚。最困难的是从那时起，我失去了指引方向的北极星。疫情过后，我决心打造完全不使用动物制品的餐厅与料理。

What should have been the way mountaintop felt a bit empty. And the hardest part was from that moment on, I no longer knew what was my North Star. Yeah. And so after the pandemic, I wanted to build the restaurant and our cuisine without using any animal products.

我想稍作剖析：首先，你四十出头就精通了烹饪艺术对吧？但突然间——我猜你当时根本不知道如何不用奶油做出黄油风味——你确实需要重新学习这些技艺。

I I wanna just break this down for a minute. First of all, here you you are in your early forties having mastered cooking, the art of cooking. Right? And all of a sudden, I'm assuming you did not know how to make something that tastes like butter without cream. I how to do these things.

可以说，你实际上不得不重头学起如何当厨师。

Like, you you literally had to relearn how to be a chef.

对我而言，没有什么比这更令人兴奋的了。而且，我认为烹饪中蕴含着无穷魔力。当你将一根胡萝卜转化为奢华体验时，那简直就像炼金术。设定这样的界限——彻底排除任何动物制品——对激发创造力至关重要，迫使我们寻找答案：如何叠层制作面包，如何用葵花籽油制作黄油，或者如何用杏仁奶制作意大利乳清干酪。

To me, that there could not been anything more exciting. Also, I think there's so much magic in the cooking. It's almost like alchemy when you can transform a carrot into a luxury experience. I think it was really important to have such boundaries to really exclude any animal products, to push this creativity the way we have to find the answer of how to laminate a bread, how to make, you know, a butter with sunflower oil or how to make a ricotta with almond milk.

如何用树木制作鱼子酱。

How to make caviar out of a tree.

怎么做？用树木？

How to? From a tree.

对，我尝试过，tambourri（植物鱼子酱）。

Yes. I've tried it, tambourri.

是的。它来自柏树植物。

Yeah. It's from the cypress plant.

柏树，没错。

Cypress, yeah.

确实如此。我学会了制作tambourri，它也被称为陆地鱼子酱，但主要用于日本的禅宗佛教料理。我们因此发现了太多新事物。

And it is yeah. It's it's I've learned tambourri, which is also referred as land caviar, but it's something that is used in Japan mostly in in the Zen Buddhist cuisine. And so we discovered so much.

那些你甚至不知道存在的东西，真是

Things you didn't even know that existed pretty

没错。明年年初我将庆祝在麦迪逊公园11号餐厅工作的二十周年。其中有四分之一时间，餐厅是完全植物基运营的。我们的烹饪方式已彻底改变。

That's right. I'm celebrating my twenty year anniversary at 11 Madison Park beginning of next year. And so a quarter of that time, the restaurant has been fully plant based. And our our cooking has completely changed.

你思考食物和制作食物的方式已经完全改变了。

Everything about the way you think about food and make food has changed.

我们永远不会再回归黄油釉、鸡汤、法式酱汁的时代。这从根本上改变了，因为我们在某些方面学会了如何做得更好。是的，我们在州北部建立了自己的农场，如果不是如此专注于蔬菜，我们绝不会这么做。

We will never revert back to butter glazes, chicken stock, the demi glace. It's fundamentally changed because we have learned in some ways to make things even better. Like Yeah. We started our own farm upstate, which we would have never done if we would have not been so focused on the vegetables.

我认为有一点很重要，那就是我并不认为你们是在向世界传递一个信息，说不要吃肉、停止食用动物产品，餐厅也停止供应这些。这完全不是你们想表达的。

One of the things that I think is important to point out is that is that I don't believe you were you were trying to send a message to the world saying, don't eat meat. Stop eating meat. Stop eating animal products. Restaurants, just stop serving it. That was not in any way what you were saying.

你们是想通过餐厅这个载体，鼓励人们以不同的方式思考植物。这样说对吗？我的意思是，你们并没有谴责肉类的消费。

You were you wanted to use the vehicle of the restaurant as a way to encourage people to think differently about plants. Is that fair to say? I mean, you you were not condemning the consumption of meat.

在这个情况下，我认为我的天真反而成了一种优势。

I mean, in this case, I believe my naivete was an asset.

你天真地决定转向植物基饮食。

Your naivete to make the decision to go plant based.

是的。因为如果早知道今天所了解的一切，我可能就没有勇气走这条路。我们的决定引发了一场远超食物范畴的全球辩论，这是我们始料未及的。对很多人来说，去一家植物基餐厅不是选择一种菜系，而像是人生抉择。

Yeah. Because if if I would have known all the things that I know today, I don't think I would have had the courage to go down this path. Our decision created a global debate that far transcended food. And this is something that we were not prepared for. For a lot of people, going to a plant based restaurant isn't a choice of cuisine, but it's like a life's choice.

这一改变让一些顾客感到被排斥，他们觉得自己不再受欢迎。

And with this change, some of our guests felt excluded. They had the feeling of not being welcome anymore.

以为这只是为素食者准备的。对，对，对。不像‘今晚吃韩国菜’或‘去牛排馆’，或者‘今晚试试植物基’那么简单。

That it was just for vegans. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not like, oh, let's have Korean food tonight, or let's have let's go to a steakhouse, or let's do plant based tonight.

没错。而这正是你原本以为的。完全正确。哦，它只是另一种菜系而已。

Yeah. And that's what you thought this was gonna be. Absolutely. Oh, it's just gonna be another type of cuisine.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

今晚我们去吃法国菜吧。不，去波斯餐厅。关于植物基或纯素食，嗯，问题是大多数人将其视为一种生活方式的转变，认为你要么选择它，要么不选择。

Let's get French food tonight. Let's go to Persian. No. The thing about plant based or or vegan Yeah. Is that most people think of it as a lifestyle change shift that you is is you're either that or you're not?

这几乎像是一种政治立场，而我从未打算卷入政治辩论。我们只是想做蔬菜料理，因为这对地球更好，而且我们热爱它带来的创意。

It was almost like a political view, and I never intended to be part of a political debate. We just wanted to cook vegetables because it's better for the planet and we love the creativity that that it brings.

这家餐厅获得了一些极高的评价，也有一些非常尖锐的批评。这对你和团队来说很艰难。但对于那些真正对你们和这个决定感到愤怒的人的反弹，你感到惊讶吗？

The restaurant, you know, got some outstanding reviews, also had some really harsh reviews Yeah. That was tough on you and the team. But were you surprised at some of the backlash, some of the, you know, some of the backlash from people who were genuinely angry at you and at this decision?

早期，餐厅内部的体验与外界批评并不相符。这让我们感到困惑，但同时也因这种体验和学习感到充满力量与满足，所以我们坚持了下来。后来情况逐渐好转。我记得有位德克萨斯的牧场主，他在四十岁生日时选择在全植物基的Eleven Madison Park用餐。

Well, in the early days, the experience inside the wall of the restaurant didn't match sort of the incoming criticism. And I think that to us was confusing and also we felt so empowered and satisfied by the experience and by the learning that we just continued. And then slowly things started to turn around. I remember sort of early on, a cattle rancher from Texas, and he sent me this long leather. And the leather was sort of like he decided for his fortieth birthday to have dinner at Eleven Madison Park, a fully plant based restaurant, as a cattle rancher.

他说妻子对这个决定感到不解。但随着用餐进行，品尝着各式芦笋、羊肚菌和春葱，他意识到这可能是一生中最棒的一餐。这样的对话让我很感兴趣，因为这才是真正的交流。这一切都激励着我，因为我相信餐厅有能力影响世界，这始终是我们的北极星。

And he said his wife was confused about that decision. But then he said as the meal goes on and he's eating all different types of asparagus, the morels and the spring onions, he's realizing that he is having one of the best meals of his life, if not the best meal of his life. And so that conversation really interests me because now we're really having a conversation. So I think all this was was was very motivating for me because I do believe a restaurant has the power to make an impact in the world. And this is definitely something that continues to be our North Star.

是的。当我们受邀参加2022年2月的米其林颁奖时，我不确定是否能保住三星。结果会怎样。

Yeah. And when we were invited to the Mishna ceremony in 02/2022, I was unsure If you would retain your three stars. What would happen.

那天晚上你紧张吗？

Were you nervous that night?

非常紧张，因为我知道这有多关键，这将是烹饪界的里程碑。从未有植物基餐厅获得过米其林三星。米其林制定了高级餐饮的规则，他们是这种经典烹饪方式的守护者。

I was I was very nervous because I knew how crucial it was and how much of a milestone this would be in the world of cuisine. There's never been a restaurant that received three Michelin stars with a plant based cuisine. So Michelin created fine dining, the rules of fine dining. They're they're the guardians Yeah. Of of this very classical way of of of cooking.

当宣布我们成为首家获得三星的植物基餐厅时，那一刻真的感觉像在水上行走。

And that night when it was announced that that we are the first restaurant to receive three Michelin stars, it did feel like we're walking on water.

从商业角度看，压力很大吧？你不仅是主厨还是老板，管理着约200人的团队，这么多人依赖餐厅谋生。过去四年里，是否有过力不从心的时刻？

Do you I mean, from a business perspective, right, there's a lot of pressure because you aren't just the chef, but you're the owner. Yep. And you manage a team of, like, 200 people, I think. A huge number of people who depend on you and the restaurant for their livelihoods. Were there moments over the last four years where, I don't know, you felt, I don't know, not up to the task?

你曾自我怀疑过吗？

Did you have self doubt?

我们的收入确实出现了下滑，因为目标受众群体大幅缩减。而且我们发现植物基烹饪的接受度还受季节影响——春夏季节更容易推广，秋冬时节人们更难理解这个概念。葡萄酒销量也因此减少了。

We definitely saw a dip in in in revenue because the audience we're catering to became a lot smaller. And we've learned that cooking plant based is more also dependent on the seasons. In the spring and summer, it's an easier sell. In the fall and the winter, it's harder for people to wrap their head around it. It's selling less wine.

在曼哈顿经营餐厅需要大量销售葡萄酒才能维持。毕竟这里的租金很高。

And wine, you need to sell a lot of wine in order to sustain a restaurant. I mean, you're in Manhattan. Yeah. The rent is high. Yep.

人力成本也高。团队规模大。提供的是高端餐饮体验。

Salaries are high. Yep. It's a big staff. Yep. It's a luxury experience.

你们每晚要接待100位客人，对吧？

You you do a 100 you serve a 100 people a night. Right?

没错。

Yep.

即便每晚都座无虚席

And and even if you're fully sold out every night

是的。

Yep.

连续好几个月都如此，你们确实做到了

For months and months and months and months, which you have been

对。

Yeah.

这不足以维持生计，当它当当时

It's not enough to sustain when it's when when

当你不卖酒的时候。

When you don't sell the wine.

当你不销售葡萄酒时。

When you're not selling the wine.

当你不承办私人活动时——那些30到40人规模的活动。要知道，没有招牌烤肉作为卖点，很难吸引人们购买活动服务。

When you don't sell your private events, which are like events for 30 or 40 people. Right. It's very hard to have people buy into an event when you don't have a signature roast.

仅使用植物食材是否意味着需要更多人力，导致劳动力成本上升？

And does only using plants require more labor, higher labor costs?

我们的劳动力成本上涨了约20%。需要更多厨师才能让胡萝卜和洋葱焕发魔力。所以从商业角度看确实变得更困难了。有时客人会把我们框定在某种定位里，但我们的终极目标是让所有人围坐餐桌——每个人都应受到欢迎。

Our labor costs went up by, like, 20%. Like, it requires more cooks to bring that magic to the carrots and to the onions. So, yeah, it's it's it's gotten harder from a from a business perspective. And our guests at times have put us in this box. Our goal at the end of the day is to welcome people around the table and everyone is welcome around the table.

这才是餐厅的最高使命。如果盘中物或盘中无物阻碍了人们前来，那将是毁灭性的失败。听取所有反馈后，我们相信是时候再次变革了。

That is the highest purpose of a restaurant. If it's what's on the plate or what's not on the plate keeps people from coming, then that would be devastating and we would be missing our mark. And when we listen to all the feedback, We believe that it is time for another change.

稍事休息后，丹尼尔将首次揭秘他在麦迪逊公园11号的下一步大动作。我是盖伊·拉兹，您正在收听《我是如何打造这一切》实验室特辑。刚结束家庭度假，我们住在雅典一间绝妙的爱彼迎，卧室就能眺望帕特农神庙。

We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, Daniel explains for the first time his next big step at 11 Madison Park. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz. You're listening to a special episode of How I Built This Lab. I just got back from vacation with my family, and I stayed at the most incredible Airbnb in Athens with a view of the Parthenon from the bedroom.

简直太棒了。全家一起烹饪、徒步，共度美好时光。当时我就想：其实出门期间完全可以把自家房子挂上爱彼迎。成为房东能创造额外收入，说不定赚的钱还能补贴旅费呢。

It was just amazing. And we had such a great time as a family, cooking together and hiking together. And, you know, I remember thinking while I was there, I could have put my house on Airbnb while I was away. Hosting on Airbnb provides you with another stream of income. And who knows, your earnings could help offset the cost of your trip.

你的家可能是他人完美度假地。你添置的个性装饰、心爱厨具、艺术藏品，都能让住客宾至如归。你房子的价值或许超乎想象。登录airbnb.com/host估算收益。本期节目由Square赞助播出。

Your home might be the perfect place for someone else's time away. The personal touches you've added, your favorite kitchen gadgets, the artwork, All of that can make someone else feel right at home. Your home is probably worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host. This episode of How I Built This was brought to you by Square.

在Square的新系列《上升之路》中，我与六家本地企业进行了对话。我记录了企业家的创业历程、面临的障碍与高光时刻，以及Square如何助力业务增长。想象一下你欣赏的一家欣欣向荣的本地企业——或许是拥有最柔软毛巾的精品店，或是售卖最佳司康饼的社区咖啡馆。这些企业中有许多都信赖Square来管理运营并实现增长。

In Square's new series, The Way Up, I sit down with six local businesses. I chart the entrepreneur's journey, the hurdles, and the highs, and how Square played a part in helping the business grow. Think about a thriving local business you admire. Maybe it's a great boutique with the softest towels or a local cafe that has the best scones. Many of these businesses trust Square to help manage their operations and grow.

比如，我特别喜欢与瓦拉南瓜田的父女搭档交流。他们最初只在小块土地上种植南瓜，如今已能制作馅饼和苹果酒，单日接待游客高达两万人。这样的扩张？Square让整个过程无缝衔接。来聆听六家崛起中的美国企业的成长故事。

For instance, I absolutely love talking to the father daughter duo behind Vala's Pumpkin Patch. They started with a tiny plot of land growing pumpkins, and now they make pies and ciders and welcome up to 20,000 people in a single day. And that growth? It was made seamless by Square. Hear the journeys of six rising American businesses.

访问square.com/go/built了解更多详情。网址是square.com/go/built。了解Square如何助您的企业在上升之路上前行。我们都有本可以做得更好的时刻，比如自己剪头发。哎呀。

Visit square.com/go/built to learn more. That's square.com/go/built. Learn how Square can help your business on the way up. We all have moments when we could have done better, like cutting your own hair. Yikes.

或是忘了涂防晒霜，现在脸红得像番茄。疼啊。本可以做得更好。投资选择也是如此。用嘉信理财提升水平，更聪明地投资。

Or forgetting sunscreen so now you look like a tomato. Ouch. Could have done better. Same goes for where you invest. Level up and invest smarter with Schwab.

获取市场洞察、教育资源，并在需要时获得人工协助。详情请访问schwab.com。嘿，欢迎回到《我是这样打造的》实验室，我是盖伊·拉兹。

Get market insights, education, and human help when you need it. Learn more at schwab.com. Hey. Welcome back to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz.

在丹尼尔·休姆将其米其林三星餐厅彻底转型为纯植物基餐厅震惊美食界四年后，他表示现在又到了另一个重要转折时刻。

So four years after shocking the world of fine dining by turning his three star Michelin restaurant into a 100% plant based operation, Daniel Hulme says it's time for another important pivot.

我现在明白，对大多数人而言，选择植物基餐厅更多是生活方式而非单纯菜品的选择。能将近五年的创意实践坚持下来，我感到无比幸运。但我已决定是时候再次改变。从十月起，我们将重新引入少量动物制品，如鱼类或贝类。是的，我们会带回归我们的招牌菜——蜂蜜薰衣草釉鸭。

I understand now that for most, dining at a plant based restaurant is more of a life choice than a choice of cuisine. I feel incredibly lucky that I've had the privilege to see this creative endeavor through for almost five years. But I've made the decision now that it's time for another change. And starting in October, we will reintegrate a few animal products such as fish or shellfish. And yes, we will bring our duck back, our honey lavender glazed duck.

我们始终倾听反馈，目前了解到要成为最具包容性的餐厅，就需要提供选择。我们将审慎使用动物制品，保持菜品以植物基为主，同时根据部分客人的偏好提供个性化体验，让整个家庭都能围坐共享盛宴。

We've always listened to the feedback and what we've heard is that to be the most hospitable version of our restaurant today is to offer a choice. Our use of animal products will be deliberate with the base of our cuisine, staying plant based and offering individual experiences to some of our guests' preferences so that we can welcome everyone around the table, the whole family.

所以你们决定重新引入肉类和动物制品，对吧？做出这个决定困难吗？还是觉得‘我尝试过这个方向，它改变了我的理念和烹饪方式，现在该开启新篇章了’？

So so you came to a decision to reintroduce some meat, some animal products. Right? And was that was it hard for you to to to to come to that decision, or did you feel like, you know, I tried this thing. Yeah. And it's changed what I do, how I think, how I cook, and this is the next chapter of that.

因为你知道，当人们听说这个消息时，难免会有人说‘这个实验失败了’——这不可避免。

Because because inevitably, you know this, people who hear about this and find out about this are gonna there are gonna be some people who say, oh, it failed. This this experiment failed.

当然，达到这一步是一个过程，因为当我们做出这个决定时，我们全力以赴，必须如此。你必须对自己正在做的事情和前进的方向深信不疑，否则就会显得不真诚。这正是我在疫情期间的状态——我想要创建第一家纯植物餐厅。

It was a process, of course, to get to this point because when we made this decision, we dove all in hard and we had to. You have to really firmly believe of what you're doing and where you're going. Otherwise, it feels disgenuine. And that was very much where I was at in the pandemic. I wanted to create the first plant based restaurant Yeah.

并获得米其林三星。而我周围的声音都在说：这行不通，会失败的。那些……

That received three Michelin stars. And the voices around me were like, this is not gonna work. This will fail. People who

曾是你朋友和支持者的人。

were your friends and supporters.

是的，人们充满质疑。我们创造了一种新语言，开创了一种新菜系，还撰写了一本全新的书，名为《植物篇章》。

Yeah. People had a lot of doubts. We created a new language. We created a new cuisine. We wrote an entire new book called The Plant Based Chapter.

这本质上是不同的。但没错，我们有超过200名员工服务100位客人，利润空间极其微薄，必须始终保持满座，这是维持这种水准和团队的唯一方式。

It's fundamentally different. But Right. We have over 200 people working in a restaurant that serves a 100 people. The margins are razor thin, and and it requires for us to be full all the time. It's the only way you can maintain this level and this team.

所以虽然艰难，但确实可行。我们必须持续保持这种状态——这不仅是创意尝试，更……

And so, yeah, but it is possible. We just gotta continue to also have that hat on. It's it's not just a creative endeavor. It's

是一门生意。

It's a business.

是一门生意。如果我们想继续参与这场对话，就必须确保商业可持续性。

It's a business. And I think if we wanna continue to be part of the conversation, it has to be sustainable as a business.

你觉得这就像——很多人问我：为什么米其林三星餐厅被热议却少有人消费？毕竟更多人会去红酱意大利餐馆。但它们的价值在于，就像巴黎时装周为何重要？

Do you think that that like, I I think the analogy would be like if because a lot of people ask me, you know, they'll sort of say, well, why why are these sort of Michelin three star restaurants so a lot of people talk about them. Very few people dine at them, you know, every there there many more people eat at a red sauce Italian place. Right? Yes. But the reason they're they're important is because it's sort of like, why is, you know, the runway show in Paris important?

我们不会全盘照搬那些设计，但一年后主流商店里就会出现受其启发的款式。高端餐厅也是如此，它们定下的基调会逐渐渗透到大众餐饮中。

Important? Like, we're not all wearing that, but we will wear things that are inspired by that in a year from now. Like, we'll find them in Main Street shops. And it's just similar with, like, fine dining restaurants. They that they sort of set the tone that trickles down to food.

我是说，不可避免地，会有各种各样的反应。这并不一定意味着什么，但总会有人说，你看，这行不通。不可能成功的。你不能那样做。你无法维持一家餐厅在那个水平上运营。

I mean, inevitably, right, there are gonna be all kinds of reactions. And and that doesn't necessarily mean anything, but there will be people who say, well, you know, it doesn't work. It can't work. You can't have that. You can't sustain a restaurant at that level.

你会怎么回应这类质疑？

What do you say to like, what's your response to that?

对我来说，走到这个进化的下一阶段花了很长时间，部分原因是我们当初如此坚定地立下了这个标杆。是的。当人们说这行不通时，你不想成为那些声音之一。也许他们有一定道理。他们说的部分内容确实存在事实依据。

For me, it took a long time to come to this next step of of evolution and and part of it was because we put so much this, like, flag in the ground. Yeah. And people saying it's not gonna work And you don't wanna be like some of those voices. Maybe they had a point. Part of what they're saying, there was some truth to it.

你也有同感吗？

You feel that way?

我觉得这是个巨大的转变。对我们行业是变革，对供应商也是改变。所以我认为这引发了很多恐惧。我不完全清楚人们说这行不通的所有原因。

I feel that it's such a big change. It's a change in our industry. It was a change to our suppliers. So I think I think there's a lot of fear that comes up with that. I don't know all the reasons why people said this will not work.

但如果是因为不够包容，那他们确实有道理。但在我看来，这非常成功，因为我们现在的餐厅已截然不同。如今我们谨慎地引入少量动物产品，对这些选择非常慎重。我们深入研究过地中海饮食。嗯。

But if it was for the reasons that it wasn't inclusive, then I think they definitely had a point. But to me, it very much is a success because our restaurant today is fundamentally different. And now we're incorporating a few animal products where we're going to be very deliberate about what these are. And we studied a lot the Mediterranean diet. Mhmm.

我们还带着团队去了希腊和意大利考察。你知道，那种饮食结构主要是植物性的。

And we traveled with our team to Greece and to Italy. And, you know, that diet is is mostly plant based.

只含少量肉类。

Just a little bit of meat.

特殊场合才吃一点鱼和肉。这也是迈克尔·波伦一直倡导的理念。

It's a little bit of fish and a little bit of meat for special occasions. It's also what Michael Pollan has been preaching Right.

「以植物为主」或者

For Eat mainly plants or

吃少一点，且以植物为主。

Eat eat little and mostly plants.

对。你提到希腊和意大利，那次旅行是否开始让你重新思考下一步想做什么以及如何呈现食物？

Right. And you you mentioned Greece and Italy, and and, like, was that trip sort of did that start to turn the gears in your head again about the next sort of iteration of of what you wanna do and how you wanna present food?

是的。我开始意识到要创造真正的改变，我们不能太教条。观察古代文化时，发现它们饮食中肉类都不多，但也不是完全不吃。我认为重要的是，我们前进的方向既要借鉴古老实践，又要结合现代技术，在两者间找到平衡点。

Yeah. I I feel like I started to realize that to create real change, we can't be as dogmatic. And when we looked at ancient cultures, which none of them have a lot of meat in their diet, but it's also not no meat. Right. I think it's important that where we're heading is informed by sort of ancient practices, but then also modern techniques and then we're finding sort of a place in the middle.

那么展望未来，EMP餐厅的理念是吸引以前觉得这里不适合自己的顾客。他们可以点鸭肉或奶酪，但离店时会对蔬菜烹饪有全新认知——比如惊叹'天哪，那个低温慢煮15小时的胡萝卜是我吃过最棒的东西'？

So moving forward, when somebody I mean, the idea is at EMP, somebody is gonna dine there who would not have gone there before because they didn't feel like it was for them. Yeah. And they can have some duck if they want, and there might be some cheese. But you want them to walk out having been exposed to preparation of vegetables that they would not have eaten anywhere else? Like like, that they will they're gonna walk out of that experience saying, wow.

就像这样，无论具体是什么菜品。

This was, like like, the best thing I had was the, you know, the carrot cooked fifteen hours at, you know, low temperature, whatever whatever it might be.

我的目标是让每个人都能围坐一桌，不同菜品会打动不同的人。我们创立了以植物烹饪为基础的新烹饪语言。你可以选择鱼、龙虾或鸭肉——我们不是反对肉类，而是支持地球。必须减少全球肉类消费，这是事实。

My goal is that everyone can be around the table and different dishes are gonna resonate with different people. We have created a new language of cooking that is based in plant based cooking. And if you want, you will have the choice for a fish or for a lobster or for a duck. We're not anti meat but we are pro planet and we believe that we need to reduce the consumption of meat in the world. And that is a fact.

这不是我编造的。如果能颂扬蔬菜的同时搭配少量肉或鱼，我认为就非常理想了，这才能真正推动改变。

That's not something I came up with. But so if we can celebrate vegetables and have a little bit of meat or a little bit of fish, I think we're in really good shape. And that will really move the needle.

所以像甜点、面包这类应该还是会...

So probably a lot of the things like the, you know, the the desserts and the bread will still be

完全植物基。

Fully plant based.

不含动物制品

There'll be no animal products

是的。在

Yeah. At

所有甜点中你都会用到奶油，或是可颂里的黄油，而且

all. You're gonna have cream in your desserts or butter in the croissant and

你知道，当我们发现一款真正令我们兴奋、想要突出的产品时——可能是奶酪、黄油或奶油——当这道菜以那个产品为核心时，我们就会使用它。

You know, I think when we find a product that we're really excited about, that we wanna highlight, this could be a cheese and this could be a butter or it could be a cream, and when the dish becomes about that product, then we will use it.

没错。

Right.

但我们不会像过去那样把它混进每道菜里。任何优质产品都有可能成为麦迪逊公园十一号的一道菜，只要它成为焦点。

But we will not just mix it into every single dish like it used to be, but any great product has the potential to become a dish of Eleven Madison Park if that becomes the main focus.

嗯。那你们需要重建一些失去的合作关系吗？

Yeah. And will you will you have to reestablish some relationships that you lost?

做出这个改变时很有意思。确实有些...我们让一些人感到不快。是的，部分供应商觉得我们背弃了他们——某种程度上确实如此，因为我们停止订购某些产品。但这绝非针对个人或供应商，甚至有些厨师也感到被冒犯，他们可能预感变革将至，自己需要调整。

You know, it was really interesting when we made this change. We we did get some we we upset some some people were upset. Yeah. Some of our suppliers were upset and they felt like somehow we are turning our back on them, which of course in a way we did because we stopped ordering certain things. But this was never meant to be personal or or this was never meant to be about a supplier or even some chefs I could feel they were a little bit rubbed the wrong way because maybe they felt that maybe there's some changes coming, and maybe they need to start changing certain things.

但这纯粹关乎我作为厨师想做的事。当时我陷入了创作瓶颈，感到不满足。我有机会创造全然不同的东西：探索从未涉足的文化，游历印度、日本学习禅宗素食，前往中东...这些经历改变了我的人生。

But this wasn't ever about anyone else other than what I wanted to do as a chef. And I was in a creative rut. I wasn't fulfilled. I had the opportunity to create something entirely different, to learn about new cultures I never looked at, traveling India, traveling Japan, learning about the Zen Buddhist cuisine, going to The Middle East, all these places. It's changed my life.

它重塑了我作为厨师的理念，我和团队都深怀感激。如今我们的料理自成一体——过去总觉得是已有风格的变体，而现在我真正找到了自己的声音。现在的菜品才真正属于麦迪逊公园十一号。

It's changed me as a chef and I'm extremely grateful and and the team is grateful. Today I feel like our cuisine is its own. Before, I think it was always a version of something that already existed. And today, I feel like I really found my voice. Today, the cuisine is very authentic to Eleven Madison Park.

广告后，丹尼尔将分享这个决定对他个人及餐厅的意义。别走开，我是盖伊·拉兹，您正在收听《我是如何打造这一切》实验室特别篇。创业者都明白，经营路上布满大小挑战——看看我们这个节目就知道。

After the break, what Daniel thinks his decision means for himself and for Eleven Madison Park. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to a special episode of How I Built This Lab. If you've started your own business, you know just how many challenges there are, big and small. I mean, look at how I built this.

打造这场演出伴随着诸多考验，深夜工作，凌晨早早起床。尽管起步充满挑战，但创办新事业有一件事能使之变得轻松许多——那就是与AT&T Business建立合作。无论你的业务涉及什么领域，AT&T Business都能让它变得简单得多。

Building this show came with a lot of trials, Late nights, very, very early mornings. But even though there were challenges getting started, there is something that makes setting up a new business easier. Getting connected with AT and T Business. It doesn't matter what your business is dealing with. AT and T Business helps to make it much, much easier.

这正是服务提供商存在的意义——让你的梦想构建更轻松。登录business.att.com唤醒AT&T Business的力量。网址是business.att.com。成功创业者与其他人的区别何在？他们善用正确工具将伟大构想付诸实践。

And that's the point of a provider in the first place, making building your dream easier. Wake up to the power of AT and T Business at business.att.com. That's business.att.com. What separates successful founders from others? They execute on great ideas by leveraging the right tools.

这就是为什么Claude对创业者来说是颠覆性存在。它不仅是又一个人工智能聊天机器人，更是贯穿你工作流程的协作伙伴。Claude代码直接在终端运行，理解你的代码库并处理开发任务，让你专注宏观规划。同时Cloud AI解决其他所有问题。

That's why Claude is a game changer for entrepreneurs. It's not just another AI chatbot. It's a collaborator that works alongside you throughout your workflow. Claude code works directly in your terminal, understanding your code base and handling development tasks while you focus on the big picture. Meanwhile, Cloud AI tackles everything else.

通过全新MCP目录，你可以一键连接所有工具，让Claude全面掌握工作流程上下文。访问claud.ai/hibt（网址claud.ai/hibt）。要解锁上述所有功能需要付费版Claude计划，但《How I Built This》听众通过我们的链接可享Claude Pro前三个月五折优惠。嘿。

Through the new MCP directory, you can connect to all your tools with one click, giving Claude full context across your workflow. Head to claud.ai/hibt. That's claud.ai/hibt. You'll need a paid Claude plan to unlock all of the features mentioned, but How I Built This listeners get 50% off their first three months of Claude Pro using our link. Hey.

欢迎回到《How I Built This》实验室，我是盖伊·拉兹。在决定将少量动物产品重新纳入菜单的同时，丹尼尔正面临着这个决定对他作为厨师、商人和领导者的创作意义。从外人视角看，特别是年轻厨师或任何关注你职业生涯的人，他们眼中的你是...

Welcome back to how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. So along with his decision to put a few animal products back onto the menu, Daniel's grappling with what it means to him creatively as a chef, as a businessman, and as a leader. You know, from from an outsider's perspective, right, especially for a young chef or anybody in food or anyone really looking at your career and you, you know, they see you. Right?

你被视作极其成功的人——米其林三星、各种荣誉加身。我很好奇你如何看待自己。

You'd be perceived as somebody extremely successful and, you know, Michelin three stars and all these accolades. And and I wonder how you see yourself.

我充满自我怀疑，特别是面对接下来的发展方向。当所有人都说这行不通时，我得出的结论是我们需要持续进化，不能困在既定框架里。有时我觉得自己像个骗子，当初立下的旗帜现在会被视为软弱吗？人们会因我不坚守信念而评判我吗？这些念头挥之不去，但我必须提醒自己：进化就需要突破边界，我们会学习，有时后退，换个方向再前进。这或许就是人性。

I'm full of self doubt, especially with where we're going next, you know, in the process after everyone told me this is not gonna work, and I sort of came to the conclusion that we want to continue to evolve, we don't want to be stuck in this box and sort of, at times I felt like, well, I'm a fraud. All these things, the flag that I put in the sand is now people are going to look at it as like a weakness. Are they going to judge me for being weak, for not standing, for my beliefs? And of course I have all these thoughts in my head, but then I also have to remind myself that in order to evolve, we do have to push boundaries and then we learn and then at times we pull back and then we push in a different direction and then we pull back. I feel like it's kind of human nature.

若想让Eleven Madison Park持续进化，若想作为厨师继续成长，这就是必经之路。我深深感激植物基社群对我们工作的赞誉，这给予我很多。现在我们的轻微转向，希望不会让植物基社群觉得我们背弃了他们，因为我们绝无此意。恰恰相反，这是为了更深入探索，继续前行。我们想邀请所有人共聚一堂。

And I think if we want to continue evolving Eleven Madison Park, if I want to continue to learn as a chef, that's part of the process. And, you know, I'm so grateful to the community of the plant based community who has been celebrating our work. It's given me a lot and I do hope that now that we're pivoting slightly, that now the plant based community doesn't feel like we're turning our back because that's not at all what we're doing. It's really to go deeper on this, to continue on this. We wanna welcome everyone at the table.

经营餐厅业务的一部分就是要发挥领导力。这个转变对团队中某些人来说会很难——有些人正是因为你们完全转向植物基才加入的。

Part of being running a a restaurant in the business is you you have to you're a leader. Right? You have to exercise, like, leadership skills. And so this is a change for I mean, there are people who are on the team, some of whom came and joined you because of this, because you went fully So plant it's gonna be hard for some people.

确实。

Yeah.

你打算如何应对那种摩擦呢？

How are you how are you gonna manage that, you know, that sort of friction?

我认为团队就是我的一切。许多人已跟随我多年，他们与我共同经历了多次变革，我们都明白需要不断进化、倾听和适应。因此，大家其实都渴望从现状中寻求突破。有些人是因我们选择的道路而加入餐厅，但他们本质上都是从事服务业，这才是他们在餐厅工作的真正原因。

I think, you know, my team is everything to me. And a lot of people have been with with me for a long time. I think the people who've been with me for a long time, they've gone through many different changes with me and we all understand that we're always going to continue to evolve and listen and adapt. So in that sense, has lived this experience and everyone is sort of like itching for an evolution from here. There are people who have joined our restaurant because we are going down this path, and but they're also all in the hospitality business, and that's really why they are working in a restaurant.

我听到过客人反馈说'真希望我兄弟也能来'或'但愿我丈夫能理解这种体验'。我们共同经历着这种转变，人们终会理解——我们不会退回原来的模式，EMP已永久改变。变革本就是这家餐厅的基因。

And I think they hear these feedbacks of people say like, oh, I wish my brother could be here as well, or I wish my husband would understand what this is, but he's not willing to do it. And so we're all living this experience and and I think people will understand. We are not reverting back to the restaurant we were. We're a changed restaurant forever on. And the thing about EMP is change is in its DNA.

艺术家威廉·德·库宁有句话深得我心：'我必须改变才能保持不变'。这对麦迪逊公园11号餐厅再贴切不过。

There is a quote by an artist, William de Kooning, that really resonates with me. And he said, I have to change to stay the same. Yeah. And this is couldn't be more true for 11 Madison Park.

整个餐饮业正面临危机——或许这个词有点重，但挑战确实存在。我认识的业内人士，包括许多主厨，都提到餐厅因各种原因倒闭的现象。

The restaurant industry in general is having is sort of I think that the word crisis has been used. That might be a bit much, but, I mean, there are a lot of challenges. Right? There are I hear from people I know in the industry. You hear it from chefs who, you know, restaurants are closing for a variety of reasons.

部分原因是人力成本过高，维持餐厅运营节奏（尤其是高级餐厅）的压力。关于高端餐饮未来模式的讨论，已从边缘话题变成行业焦点——这种模式真的可持续吗？

Part of it is cost of labor and just to sustain the the the pace of running a restaurant, especially a fine dining restaurant. I'm sure you've been you've sort of seen these conversations happening, you know, on the margins or even even actually, it's on center stage around the future of fine dining. Like, is is that model? Right? Is that model sustainable?

十年十五年后人们还会这样用餐吗？

Is it going to be how people eat in ten or fifteen years? You know?

在食品系统和供应链剧变的当下，主厨至关重要——这不能由政客决定，必须掌握在主厨、农民等一线实践者手中。高端餐饮就像芭蕾舞或古典乐，是烹饪艺术的巅峰，必将作为文化符号永存。

To me, chefs are incredibly important as we're seeing our food system change, our supply change, this cannot be in the hands of politics. This has to be in the hands of chefs and farmers and the people actually on the ground. Fine dining will always be will always exist because it's it's it's the highest form of of cooking. It's like saying there won't be any ballet anymore or any classical music or I mean, this is part of the culture. I think it's important that it continues to exist and that we continue to celebrate it.

餐饮风尚总在休闲与高端间摇摆。虽然现在偏向休闲化，但钟摆终将回摆。高端餐厅更是培养人才的摇篮——想想从EMP、法国洗衣房等名店走出的人才，如今遍布各类餐厅。

And and I believe very much. I think the way this is always kind of swung in a pendulum where we're very focused on casual dining and then eventually we become more focused on fine dining. And maybe now we're in a place of in the more casual, but but it will swing back. It it is important. It's also where a lot of the education happens.

这些曾在顶级餐厅受训的人才如今活跃在休闲餐饮领域，正说明保留高端餐厅的必要性。

Like, the amount of people who have come through EMP or through the French Laundry or to Single Threat or through any of these great restaurants, it is tremendous. And these people are working in casual restaurants, but they've gotten the training from these fine dining restaurants. Yeah. So I think it's imperative that these restaurants continue to exist.

所以你现在正处在这个新篇章的开端。嗯。或许五年后我们可以再来聊聊这一章的内容。

So here you are right at this next chapter. Mhmm. And now we might talk about this chapter in in five years.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你如何看待十年后的自己？我是说，你还很年轻——毕竟还没到50岁，我觉得那算年轻，因为我已经50岁了。但你肯定有很多想做的事，而且我知道你参与了不少项目。

Where do you see yourself in, you know, in in ten years from now? Like, where do you see because you're you're still young. I mean, you're, you know, you're not yet 50. I think that's young because I'm 50. But, I mean, you have all of these things that you probably wanna do, and you're involved in different projects, I know.

对。十年后你希望自己身处何方？那时你想从事什么？

Yeah. Where do you see yourself in ten years from now? And what what do you want to be doing?

麦迪逊公园11号就是我的生命。我在那里度过了二十年，从未想过它会成为我如此长久的归宿。我充满感激，也觉得与这家餐厅的缘分还未尽。特别是接下来这一章至关重要——我们正将餐厅带入一个全新的健康发展阶段，它本质已蜕变为另一家餐厅，却依然欢迎所有人。

I mean, 11 Madison Park has been my life. I've been there for twenty years. I could have never imagined that that would become my home for so long. But I'm so grateful and I feel that my work with this restaurant isn't done yet. But I think and especially I think this next chapter is really crucial because I do believe that we are really now landing in a very healthy place where it's fundamentally a different restaurant, but one that welcomes everyone.

我想彻底实现这个愿景。奇妙的是，在二十年后，这家餐厅第一次让我感觉完整。我的目标是让它未来几十年都能位列伟大餐厅之林——虽然我不确定自己能否继续书写这个故事。但我们有非常优秀的年轻团队成员，希望将来有人能接过缰绳延续传奇。

And so that is something I want to see fully through. And in a weird way, I feel like for the first time ever, the restaurant feels complete after twenty years being there. And my goal is for this restaurant, this restaurant deserves to be one of the great restaurants for many more decades. And I don't think that's in me to be able to continue that story. We have incredible team members who are much younger, who hopefully one day someone can take the rein and continue that story.

我梦想三十年后这家餐厅仍像今天这般重要。是的，这是个令人兴奋的话题，也是我未来十年期待解决的课题。

My dream is that in thirty years, the restaurant is as important as it is today. Yeah. But that's an exciting sort of conversation and and something I'm I'm looking forward to to solve over the next decade.

以上是纽约麦迪逊公园11号主厨兼老板丹尼尔·胡姆的分享。提醒一下，我们会在节目备注里放上2021年与丹尼尔对谈的链接，那期节目非常精彩值得一听。感谢您本周收听我们的节目。

That's Daniel Hoom, chef and owner of Eleven Madison Park in New York City. Just a reminder, we'll put a link to my original conversation with Daniel from 2021 in the show notes. It's a great episode and well worth hearing. Hey. Thanks so much for listening to the show this week.

新听众欢迎探索《我是如何打造这一切》的往期节目，近700期与世界顶尖创始人的深度访谈全部免费开放，只需下滑您的播客列表。若想支持本节目，只需做两件事：一是在播客应用中点击关注按钮（完全免费，这样就不会错过新节目）

If you're new to how I built this, check out our archives, almost 700 in-depth interviews with the world's greatest founders, all available to you for free. Just scroll down your podcast queue. And if you wanna support this show, it's really easy. Do two things for me. Click the follow button on your podcast app.

第二件事是向他人推荐本节目。我们制作《HIVT》旨在帮助您思考商业、领导力、创意以及如何开创具有影响力的事业。您还可以通过注册guyros.com或Substack上的新闻通讯获取免费建议。本期节目由凯瑟琳·塞弗制作，音乐由拉姆蒂娜·拉布卢伊创作。

It's free, by the way, and you'll never miss a new episode of the show. And the second thing, tell people about the show. We make HIVT to help you think about business, leadership, ideas, and how to start something that has impact. You can also get free advice by signing up for my newsletter at guyros.com or on Substack. This episode was produced by Katherine Seifer with music composed by Ramtina Rablui.

本期节目由安德莉亚·布鲁斯编辑。我们的工程师是罗伯特·罗德里格兹和西娜·拉弗雷多。制作团队成员还包括亚历克斯·钟、卡拉·埃斯特维斯、凯西·赫尔曼、卡丽·汤普森、努尔·吉尔、拉梅尔·伍德、山姆·保尔森、迪瓦·格兰特和伊莱恩·科茨。我是盖伊·罗兹，您正在收听的是《我是如何创造的》。如果您喜欢本节目，现在加入Wondery Plus即可在Wondery应用或苹果播客上提前收听无广告版本。

It was edited by Andrea Bruce. Our engineers were Robert Rodriguez and Sina Laffredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, Carrie Thompson, Noor Gill, Ramel Wood, Sam Paulson, Diva Grant, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Roz and you've been listening to How I Built This. If you like how I built this, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

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