埃里克·罗斯：《阿甘正传》与《沙丘》背后的编剧 | 我的创作之道

《沙丘》、《阿甘正传》、《本杰明·巴顿奇事》。埃里克·罗斯是这些剧本的作者，他曾七次获得奥斯卡提名，并凭借《阿甘正传》赢得了最佳剧本奖。我问过他一些问题，比如如何找到一个主题？在你的写作中可以做些什么来真正打动人们？

Dune, Forrest Gump, Benjamin Button. Eric Roth is the guy who wrote all those screenplays, and he's been nominated for an Oscar seven times. And he won the Academy Award for best screenplay with Forrest Gump. I asked him things like, how do you find a theme? What can you do in your writing to really move people?

与大卫·芬奇、史蒂文·斯皮尔伯格和马丁·斯科塞斯合作是什么感觉？那是什么样的体验？让我们开始吧。我想从你提到的今天还在写作说起，你仍然每天从第一页开始写，从第一页

What's it like to work with David Fincher and Steven Spielberg and Martin Scorsese? What's that like? Let's begin. The thing I wanna start with is you said you were writing today, and you're still writing kind of every day from page one, from page

开始。嗯，是的。我的意思是，有时候我不会碰第一页，但没错，我总是从第一页开始。

one. Well, yes. I mean, it's sometimes I don't touch page one, but yes, I always start from page one.

跟我详细说说这个习惯。

So tell me about that.

嗯，这只是我让自己沉浸在素材中的一种方式，我在某种程度上生活在其中，我称之为一种侵蚀感。如果有需要修复和回填的地方，就像把土重新堆起来一样，我能看到那些问题。所以当我完成第一稿时——这可能需要一段时间，但我觉得我已经覆盖得差不多了——然后当然，读完之后你会讨厌它，然后问自己为什么还要这么做。但没错，我每天都从第一页开始。

Well, I just it's a way of Keeping myself involved with the material where I'm living it, you know, in a way that I also sort of I call it sort of a sense of erosion that if there's things that need to be fixed and backfilled like dirt piled back up, that I could see that and I see mistakes and I see. So when I'm done with my first draft, which could take me a while, but I think I've covered it pretty much, you know? And then, of course, after you read it, you hate it. And then you say, Why do I bother doing this? But yeah, I start on page one every day.

是的。

Yeah.

跟我讲讲“侵蚀”这个概念。

Tell me about erosion.

嗯，可能这个词不太准确，但就像是试图支撑那些即将倒塌的部分。这是我的理解。所以为什么这部分不太行？我如何让它尽可能富有想象力、新鲜、出人意料，你知道，这些都是你希望在写作中体现的东西

Well, I mean, it's probably not the right word for it, but it's like trying to shore up what is kind of falling down. That's how I look at it. So why is this not quite working? How do I make this as close to as imaginative as it can be fresh, something surprising, you know, the things you want to have in anything you write, you

明白吗？所以

know? So

当我感觉到某些内容显得陈旧时，我就想让它们焕发生机，你懂的。

when I see something feels tired, I want to make it feel alive, you know.

你有没有发现，初次创作时总是热情洋溢、文思泉涌，但回头再看结尾部分，那种生命力却消失了？还是说你现在能凭直觉判断作品是否具有生命力？

Do you ever find that when you're writing it for the first time, you're you're you're, like, sparkling with enthusiasm, and then you kinda come back to the end and it and it loses that life? Or do you feel like you kinda know intuitively now when something has life?

我觉得我一直都能感知作品的生命力。虽然说不清具体标准——这话可能有点怪，但我从没遇到过写作瓶颈。我热爱写作，所以每天都是场冒险。今天可以是记者，明天又能写散文，听起来可能老套。

I think I've I've always I've always felt that I knew what had life. I don't know what that is. I mean, I I mean, this is an odd thing to say, but I've never had writer's block. I love that I get to write, you know, so every day is kind of an adventure in that sense. Some is corny, you know, that I can be a journalist one day and be a prose writer.

我大概是个受挫的小说家，虽然没出版过长篇，但在剧本里写了很多散文段落。常讲个趣事：拍《本杰明·巴顿奇事》时，布拉德·皮特在朗读会上看到我写的叙述文本说'看埃里克，他硬了——对文字的硬'。

I think I'm probably a frustrated novelist because I haven't written a novel, but I write a lot of prose in my screenplays. I always tell this kind of cute story that we were doing. I did a movie, Benjamin Button, and they were doing a read through and they were reading the narration, which was the text. Brad Pitt said, oh, look at Eric. He's got a prose boner.

我确实可能兴奋了。这故事讲过很多次，但总让我开心。作为受挫的小说家，现在更难了——剧本里散文写多了会太长，但写得精炼反而更困难，可能比...

And I probably did. Yeah, that's the story I've told many times, but I've always got a kick out of it. But I am, I think, a frustrated novelist. So it's a little more difficult now because if you're going to write a lot of prose, the scripts are going to be probably longer than people want to see them. But to be concise is also difficult, maybe even more

...比长篇更难。你的剧本和其他编剧的相比如何？比如交稿时别人会说'这很埃里克风格'，这种评价基于什么特质？

difficult, you know. And how do your scripts compare to other screenwriters' scripts? Like when you turn something in and people are like, oh, that's an Eric script. What does it have about it?

说不上来，你得问别人为什么喜欢或不喜欢。很多本子也没拍成。我觉得自己特别注重视觉呈现，更重要的是剧本非常人性化且情感丰沛。

I don't know. You'd have to probably ask somebody else what they find attractive about it or not attractive. Many don't get made to. I think I'm particularly visual. More importantly, I think my scripts are particularly human and very emotional.

每个角色都独一无二。我早年就坚信必须忠于角色心理，让所有人物声音都不同。常举《龙年》的例子：迈克尔·西米诺给米基·洛克准备了角色钱包，装着这个人的生活细节——虽然演员可能根本没看，但他知道后袋放着'女儿'照片。

The characters all characters all are singular to themselves. I mean, I believed a long time ago about you have to be true to the psychology of a character so that the voices are all different. I always tell this story to that I did a rewrite for a movie that Michael Cimino made called The Year of the Dragon, which was an okay movie and interesting. And but I saw that he had given Mickey Rourke a wallet that had all the ingredients, all the stuff about this particular character's life. And I'm sure Mickey Rourke never looked at the wallet, but he knew in his back pocket was a picture of his supposed daughter.

有些细节明显，有些隐晦，比如一句格言、皱巴巴的电话号码。这些碎片聚合就成了人生。无论是小说家、诗人还是编剧，都在无中生有——我主要做改编，但70%的改编作品最终都成了原创，毕竟'烂书出好电影'，或者烂剧本更能激发创作。

I mean, things, some things obvious, some things less, you know, maybe a saying that he thought was interesting and put in there or old, crumpled phone number. But something that and as an aggregate, it's a life you form. You know, if you're if you're trying to novelist, poet, anybody, you're trying to make something out of nothing, you know, and or in my case, I do I do mostly adaptations. And even though I think I'd say a good 70% of the adaptations I do become original only because either bad books make good movies. That's the slogan or bad plays make better movies.

改编作品至少能给你提供参照物，即使原著不怎么样。

But adaptations, I think they give you something to look back at, you know, in other words, even if it's not very good.

关于角色心理的真实性，能具体描述下吗？这个概念对你意味着什么？

And tell me this. We got a lot to talk about here, but I want to jump back to the psychology. You're talking about true to the psychology of the character. Paint that picture for me. What do mean?

嗯，我是说，我认为你必须了解这个人的背景故事，她的一些经历。是什么驱动着这个人？为什么他们神经质或为什么他们轻浮或为什么他们沉默或是什么让他们愤怒？我是说，所有这些你都要尽可能简洁地呈现出来，但每个角色都应该与众不同。

Well, I mean, I think that you have to know something about his backstory, something of hers. What what makes this person tick? Why are they neurotic or why are they giddy or why are they quiet or what makes them angry? I mean, all those things you do it as hopefully as as. Concisely as you can within the thing, but that everybody should be different.

换句话说，每个人都是不同的，你知道，所以你可以在其中找到一些相当独特的角色。我希望我的剧本中，当然也包括那些真正伟大的作家的作品，能带来惊喜、好奇心等等这些元素。

In other words, everybody is different, you know, and so that you can find some pretty unique characters within. I hope my scripts and, you know, obviously really great writers stuff that they're they come with surprises and, you know, curiosity, all those things.

所以当我想到《阿甘正传》这样的电影，我会想到他的声音，他与母亲的关系，还有他的着装风格——总是非常简单，那种角色的朴素智慧。那么在你构建一个角色时，还有哪些其他方面需要考虑？

So if I think of something like Forrest Gump, I think of his voice. I think of his relationship with mom. I think of, you know, how he is dressed. Always very simple, the sort of simple wisdom of the character. So what else is it as you're building a character and you're kind of

开始塑造那个角色时，它其实是基于一本书的。虽然原著特别荒诞——书里说这家伙应该有四百磅重。我得在此基础上发挥，某种程度上这也是关于我从五十岁左右回望自己人生的视角，那些已经逝去的时光。正是这些触动引发了观众的共鸣，因为电影里都是我们生命中那些关键时刻。

beginning to create that With that character, that was from a book. I mean, so it was semi given, even though the book was particularly farcical. The guy's supposed to weigh four hundred pounds. And so I got to take off and kind of and it was as much about me looking back on my life from that point, which when I was probably 50, what had passed. And that started to resonate with people who wanted to see the movie because it was all these touchstone moments in all of our lives at that point.

我意识到了这一点。时间对我来说非常重要，某种意义上时间是本质，还有记忆与追忆。但对那个角色本身我了解较少，不过不知怎的我听到了他的声音。

And I was aware of that. I was aware of that. Time is very important to me. Time is of the essence in a way, and memories and remembrances. But that character I knew less of, you know, but I somehow could I heard his voice.

所以我用一种简单的方式理解他——因为这本来就是部非常简单的电影。虽然谈不上高度精致，但人们觉得他是真实的。你知道，他有两三样热爱的事物：他的母亲、他爱的女孩珍妮，大概还有美国的上帝之类的。昆汀·塔伦蒂诺说过，他认为这是主流电影史上最具反讽意味的作品。至于是否如此，我不确定。

And so I knew, you know, sort of in a simplistic way because it's a very simplistic movie. I mean, it's not exactly high sophistication, but he seemed human to people. You know, he had two or three things he loved, like his mother, his girl, you know, his girl he loved, Jenny, and I guess God in America or something. Also, there was Quentin Tarantino said this about that he felt it was the most ironic mainstream movie ever made. And whether it is or not, I don't know.

但为什么这么说呢？

But why is that?

嗯，比如反讽之处在于他能去白宫见约翰·肯尼迪。然后鲍勃添加了些绝妙的幽默——鲍勃·泽米吉斯是个非常出色的家伙和艺术家。比如浴室里挂着玛丽莲·梦露的照片，我称之为反讽。也许不算，也许确实是。

Well, the ironies of like, you know, he gets to go to the White House and he meets John Kennedy. And then, you know, Bob added some humor, a wonderful humor. Bob Zemeckis is a really terrific guy and terrific artist. And, you know, you have a picture of Marilyn Monroe in the bathroom, you know, or whatever the I call him ironies. Maybe they're not quite maybe they are ironic.

有些情节就是...你知道，每个人都中枪了。我们当时就设计这类桥段。

Some of it just, you know, how every everybody got shot. You know, we would do those kind of runs, you know.

像《阿甘正传》甚至《本杰明·巴顿奇事》这样的电影，一个发生在阿拉巴马，另一个在新奥尔良。你是如何把握南方口音和南方说话方式的？是通过研究还是其他方法？

With a movie like that, Forrest and even, you know, Benjamin Button, one takes place in Alabama, the other in New Orleans. And how do you get that sense of the southern accent, the southern way of speaking? Is that something that you research or anything like that?

我做了大量研究。是的，我进行很多调研。互联网的出现堪称最棒的事情。我是说，在后院这里我还有几间棚屋堆满了互联网出现之前的研究书籍。但我也说不清。

I research a lot. Yeah, I do a lot of research. So the best thing that ever happened was the Internet. I mean, I have in the backyard here like sheds filled with research books before there was a Internet, you know? But I don't know.

这只是你捕捉到的一种感觉。但我认为这也与角色有关，演员们总是以南方人的方式演绎他们。我从没这样想过。换句话说，我只是觉得这些人就是南方人。而我甚至不确定自己是否真正了解南方，特别是在电影中的呈现。

It's just a sound you get. But I think it's also the characters then the actors always portray them in a southern way. I never thought of it that way. I mean, in other words, I just thought that these people are Southerners. And I don't I don't know if I even know that much about the South, you know, particularly more so on a movie.

我正在完成一个关于1890年黑手党来到新奥尔良的剧本。这是为马蒂准备的，我们看看进展如何。这个故事确实融入了南方元素——比如紫藤花，还有那种时间流逝的差异感，南方特有的时光韵律。虽然不确定是否真实存在，但过去南方总带着某种虚假的骑士精神与豪侠气概。

I'm just finishing a script for now about the mafia coming to New Orleans in 1890. I'm doing it for Marty and we'll see what happens with it. But this does kind of embrace the Southern about the sort of the wisteria and the sort of the difference in time, the way time kind of moves in the South. I mean, whether it does or not, I don't know. But to sort of a southern way used to be sort of this fake sort of chivalry and gallantry and, you know.

但精髓往往藏于细节之中

But it's in the details that things come

细节决定成败。我是说，如果细节处理不好，你在任何方面都难以成功。

out of God is in the details. I mean, you can't get if the details are no good, you're not gonna succeed in any way.

这些都会从调研和口音中体现出来吗？

And that's going to come out of the research, voice?

调研、口音，或许还包括我的亲身经历。就像《本杰明·巴顿奇事》就是个好例子，我想做些不同寻常的东西。记得PT·安德森电影《木兰花》的开场戏——我对电影了解颇深且记忆清晰——有个年轻人从父母居住的楼上跳窗自杀。

Research, the voice, and then maybe things I've lived even, you know. Like Benjamin Button's a good example because I wanted to do something that was kind of out of the ordinary with it. I remember the scene in PT Anderson's movie Magnolia. I think it's the opening where I know a lot about movies and remember movies distinctly. And I think a young man was committing suicide jumping out of a window, a floor above where his parents lived.

他父亲当时好像在测试猎枪还是什么，结果儿子坠落时被误射。后来我买了五本《达尔文奖》这类书，从中取材创造了四五个角色。比如有个被雷劈中七次的人。

His parent, the father was I don't know, testing a shotgun or something. So he shot his son on the way down. So anyhow, I then got about five of these books, the Darwin Awards, they're called. And that's where I came up with four or five of the characters. There was a man who got hit by lightning seven times.

就是这类离奇角色。我想如果能赋予他们人性，让他们显得真实，并展现那些非凡遭遇之外的真实困境，会很有意思。最后确实做到了。

It was, you know, whatever some of those characters were. So I said, if I could humanize them and make them seem real and have whatever problem they really have, you know, aside from the sort of extraordinary events that affected them, that'd be interesting. And so that's what happened.

我猜那些拖船元素也是从调研中来的吧。

And I guess the tugboats came out of research and.

拖船。对。然后我...因为我当时想把它放在拖船上。我找了那位船长，接着我得查证二战期间是否真有过拖船与潜艇相撞的事故。你知道，这问题相当具体。

Tugboats. Yeah. And then I then I I because I wanted to put it on a tugboot. I had that captain and then I had to find out, was there ever a tugboat incident with a submarine? You know, it's, I guess, pretty specific in World War Two.

确实有个著名事件，就和电影里演的一模一样——拖船在潜艇上浮时撞了上去，造成多人死亡。但我在马萨诸塞州一家小店里遇到个卖拖船模型的老板，他给我讲了所有这些细节。真的，所有情报都是他提供的。

And there was there's a sort of famous thing with which exactly what happened in the movie where the tugboat rammed the submarine as it was coming up and a number of people had gotten killed. But there was a tugboat, a guy who made tugboats for sale at a little shop in, I think, Massachusetts, and he told me all this stuff. You know, he gave me all the information. Yeah.

你知道吗，还有角色的声音塑造。你特别擅长让角色通过声音活起来，比如《按钮》里那个妈妈。她说'那孩子终究是上帝的子民'时，我真切感受到了她的灵魂。但我在想自己最常引用的是哪个角色——是巴布。他说'就像我刚才说的，虾——'

You know, one of the things also is with voice, like, you have this way of bringing the voice out in the characters, like in in in button, the mom. Like, she says, oh, you know, that baby's still a child of God. And, like, I really feel, like, her her her soul. But I was thinking about what is the one that I remember the most that I quote the most, and it's Bubba. When he goes, anyway, like I was saying, shrimp

是海洋的果实。可以烤、煮、煎、炸、烩...

is the fruit of the seed. You can barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, saute

砰。砰。砰。砰。砰。

Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom.

虾仁土豆、虾堡、虾三明治。就这些——

Shrimp and potatoes, shrimp burger, shrimp sandwich. That's

差不多就这些了。

That's that's about it.

我特别想知道，那种声音是怎么创造出来的？因为太生动了，就像——

And I gotta know. Like, is that voice coming from? Because it's vivid. Like,

那就是——

that is

你发短信时用的上帝之声。

the god that you text.

关于那件事，当时他们正在履行士兵职责，做两三样事情。我想他们是在用牙刷清洁地板之类的。我就坐在那儿。于是我说，我要把能想到的所有关于虾的做法都列出来，虾能怎么料理。当时我和家人坐在一起。

About that, and there It was with them doing two or three things in their duties as soldiers. I think they're cleaning a floor with toothbrushes whatever we it. I was just sitting. So I said, I think I'll give every possible thing I can think of with shrimps, what you can do with shrimp. And I was sitting with my family.

我们当时在加拿大偶然拥有的一栋度假屋里。大家都围坐着，我就直接喊，告诉我虾的菜式。然后他们把菜名报给我，我就打出来。最后我们可能都想不出来了。我觉得有趣的点在于这并不稀奇，因为我发现其他事情也会这样发生。

We were in a vacation house that we happened to own in Canada. And everybody was sitting around and I would just yell, give me shrimp dishes. And I would type them as they gave me the dishes. So we eventually ran out, I think. I think what I like about that is not unusual because I'll find other things that happen like that.

之后你不一定要和家人一起做这事，但你会发现，嗯，这很有意思。那我们怎么把它戏剧化，让它产生共鸣，让它成为能让作品更特别、更难忘的元素。电影总让我感觉有种原始的粘着力，它们会扎根。书籍也一样。我是说，当你想象一个角色时。

And then you not necessarily do it with my family, but you find that, well, that's interesting. How do we then, you know, dramatize that and make it feel something that resonates, you know, that it feels like something that would make the thing more special, that will be remembered. With movies, I always feel like there's something primal about them that they stick. They stay with your books, too. I mean, in other words, when you visualize a character.

但电影尤其如此，某种程度上，当某些东西留在你灵魂里时，我想说这并不是我刻意追求的，但我希望作品能以某种方式变得令人难忘，从而开始定义这部电影。

But movies, at least in particular, to some extent, when there are things that stay in your soul, I guess you say that's it's not that I search for that, but I'd like I'd like to have things that have some become memorable in some way that will then start defining the movie, you know.

那你认为如何塑造这些令人难忘的角色？是靠声音？还是价值观？

And how do you think about creating those memorable characters? Is it the voice? Is it the value?

我觉得是所有因素。就是说，我至少是从电影的主题开始——这部电影实质上是讲什么的？不是这个。

I think it's all of them. All of it. In other words, I think you start with at least I start with what's the theme of the movie? What's the movie literally about? It's not this.

这不是一个故事。这是别的东西。这是关于，你知道，我们为什么创作？为什么大家要共同做这个？有时候只是个好故事，但你需要更多。

This isn't a story. This is something else. This is about, you know, what is why are we writing? Why are you doing this all together? You know, sometimes it's just a good story, but you need more than that.

我认为必须对你想要表达的内容有些主题性思考。底层总要有些东西，这样当你遇到感觉呆板的场景时，你得想办法将其与电影主题关联起来。人们对主题有不同理解很正常，只要最终你们能在某处神奇地达成一致。所以主题性非常重要，另一点重要的是尝试——虽然我不确定自己是否掌握了。

I think you have to have some thematic about what you're trying to say. There's always going to be underneath it so that when you have a scene that feels inert, that you have to find a way to to compare, utilize it with the theme of the movie. You know, people have different ideas with the themes are, which is Okay if you're sort of somehow oddly on the same page at some point, you know. So, yeah, thematics is very important. The other thing that's important is to try to and I'm not sure I've mastered it.

伟大的作家懂得如何写潜台词。他们不直白书写，而是用隐喻或其他方式表达完全相同的意思。换句话说，他们不说那些表面证据。这很难，非常难做到。

The great writers know how to write subtextually. They don't write what's your kind of literal. They'll say it in like a metaphor or in some other way that's saying the exact same thing. But in other words, they're not saying what is sort of evidence, you know? And you get sort of a it's hard and it's very hard to do that.

真正只有伟大的作家才能做得很好。有些人只是本能地做到了。

And really only the great writers can do it very well. Some just do it instinctively.

请举例说明某个最初直白的情节，后来你说需要将其融入潜台词中。

Walk me through something that maybe started off as explicit where you said, I gotta bake this into the subtext.

我举个别人写的例子。我演过《正午》话剧，原剧本是卡尔·福尔曼写的。此刻我脑海里浮现一个场景：法官告诉即将去度蜜月离开小镇的加里·库珀（他饰演的角色）将要发生的事，并以古希腊雅典为例说明——重点不在于这位法官本身。

I'll give you something that somebody else wrote. I did a play of High Noon, And so Karl Foreman wrote the original screenplay. And only because on my mind, there's a there's a there's a part of a scene where the judge is telling Gary Cooper, who's Gary Cooper's now, about to leave on his honeymoon and leave this town and what's going to happen. And he's giving an example of what happens from Athens, Greece. So he's talking about he's not talking about him on the bench, this judge.

他讲述的是雅典发生的往事，可能关于某位法学家，但更关乎即将笼罩整个事件的阴影。就是说正义并未真正伸张。具体细节我记不清了。但高手编剧能通过他人烧伤手掌的故事，或是关于儿童记忆的隐喻来呈现。

He's talking about something that happened in Athens. So it about it about a jurist even maybe, but it was more about what is sort of like going to haunt this whole thing? In other words, they didn't really get justice. You know, I forget what it was exactly. But when you don't when you do it through some other whole story about someone burning their hand and or really good writers can do it, you know, about what memories are for kids or something.

这不是那种直白的剧本教学——角色直接陈述即将发生的情节。这种平铺直叙的方式很拙劣，电视剧常用这种手法（尤其是传统剧集）。而高级的写作在于谈论看似无关的事物，深思后却发现是绝妙隐喻。

But it's not about what the sort of screenwriting one on one is that people tell you exposition as about what's going to happen, you know, saying and they're all they're doing is laying out the story in a certain way. And it's just not very good writing. I don't think, you know, it's it's television does it a lot. I'm just, you know, it's more traditional shows. But sophisticated writing, if you can get there, is you talk about things that don't seem that they may even apply.

像大卫·马梅这样的剧作家信手拈来就能做到。这很难，但正是我首先想教编剧尝试的——比如描述一个梦境，而非直接说「我对母亲很生气」。

But then when you think about it, they're just great metaphors. I mean, the great writers, David Mamet, can do it. I mean, they do it in their sleep almost, you know? And it's just hard to do. And it's the first thing I like to try to teach writers to try to do, you know, talk about a dream you had rather than tell us that you're upset with your mother.

我的意思是，与其让你角色对兄弟说「我对母亲很生气」，不如用迂回方式表达。虽然很难把握分寸，既要避免做作，又比让两兄弟交换彼此心知肚明的信息强得多。

You know, I'm saying you're telling your brother, I'm upset with my mother. Maybe it's better to do it off, you know, sort of off center. Yeah, it's very hard to do it, though, and it's also hard so you don't become pretentious with it. It's tricky. It's just tricky, but it's much better than two brothers exchanging information that they both know.

明白我的意思吗？

You know what I'm saying?

明白。

Right.

有位合作导演说过最烂的说明性台词是：「早上好，水务局长先生」。其实完全可以用更高明的方式呈现。

I mean, there was a director I work with. He said the worst line of exposition was, Good morning, Mr. Water Commissioner. Now he maybe I could have found a different way to see that, you know.

回到梦境的话题，请具体解释为什么这种写法更高级。

So go back to the dream thing. So if you're talking about the dream, explain what makes that such better writing.

我认为这里面包含了两三个层次。首先是你要向观众传达的信息，关于这两个人之间的问题、快乐或情感纠葛。然后它又有点像幸运签饼，蕴含着某种人生教训——前提是你能避免显得矫揉造作。而在具体日子里，你甚至可能发现出人意料的表达方式，因为它并非完全如你预期。你看，仅此一处就蕴含了无限可能。

I think you're getting two or three layers of things. You're getting whatever the information is you want to give the audience about what's the problem or what's happy or emotional between these two people. Then you get a kind of a of a fortune cookie aspect of it, some kind of lesson for life if you're able to do without becoming pretentious. And then in the day, you might even find a way that's surprising because it's not exactly what you thought it was going to be, you know? So you get a whole host of possibilities within just one.

要知道，这可以是段独白，也可以只是十句话，但你总能用更精妙的方式表达复杂的内容。

You know, it can be monologue or it could be just 10 sentences, but you have a way of expressing things that are very more sophisticated way.

我想追问的是，作为观众我们在你办公室体验的情感历程，你自己是否也会经历？

The question I'm getting at here is do you go on the emotional journey that we go on as viewers sitting in your office?

我想是的。你问我会吗？我会尝试。但写对白时总感觉很糟糕——首先从我嘴里念出来可能每个角色声音都一样，毕竟我不是演员。实际上表演时我会很紧张。

I think I do. You do? Do. I try to do the dialogue and it's always so it sounds so bad because I'll first of all, probably every voice sounds the same coming from me saying it out loud, you know, because I'm not an actor. I'm self conscious about it, actually acting.

但我确实会思考：这段能触动情绪吗？它打动了我，能打动观众吗？我觉得自己多次做到了这点，虽然效果时好时坏。

And but I try to think of, will this be emotional? It's emotional to me. Will this be emotional to an audience? And I think I've succeeded a number of times in doing that, sometimes better than others. You know,

今早我和朋友聊到，他说有两部电影每次看都让他落泪：《阿甘正传》和《返老还童》。

I mean. I'm to go with a friend this morning. He said there's two movies that just make me weep every time. Gump and Benjamin Button.

噢，是的。而他

Oh, yeah. And he

说这两部是同一个编剧写的。

said the same guy wrote both of those.

嗯，我觉得它们在某种程度上确实相似。有人批评说太过雷同，但我总说：老天，马丁·斯科塞斯拍了四部黑帮片也没人在意啊？尽管他是个天才。

Well, yeah, I think, you know, they're they're they're similar in certain ways. Some people take me to task feeling that they're too similar. But I always say, well, gee, Marty Scorsese, you don't mind making four movies about the mafia. You know what I'm saying? And even though he's a genius.

不过这两部作品...总体而言，我希望自己大部分电影都聚焦于人，关注他们如何处理困境、什么对他们有意义，最终让观众感受到角色情感起伏。比如《一个明星的诞生》虽然某些段落很煽情，但我喜欢全场啜泣的效果——虽然男主自杀可能算廉价泪点，但确实能引发情感共鸣。

But yeah, they're both. I think in all in all, I hope that all my most of my movies are about people and about where people's how they're dealing with problems and what what is meaningful to them and where you then start feel tapped into how they're how emotionally they're they're handling things, whether, you know, and you're moved by it. You know, I mean, I was I liked even though it's melodramatic at some point that the work I did on Star is Born. I mean, I love the whole audience was just sobbing, you know, saying now maybe it's kind of a cheap sob because the guy has committed suicide. But, you know, it's it's an emotional thing.

那部电影确实有其独到之处。它经久不衰，这真的很棒。我觉得，我写的每部作品都试图赋予它某种人性特质，能让人产生共鸣。

That movie's really kind of held its own. It's lasted, you know, which is really nice. I think, you know, everything I write, I try to give some human quality to it that will make people feel something, you know.

如果你想感受些什么，你喝咖啡吗？因为我觉得咖啡可能有这种效果。那是一种强烈的体验。

If you're trying to feel something, are you a coffee drinker? Because I would imagine that could. So that's a strong.

我这辈子从没喝过咖啡。我一直不喜欢它的味道。我也不喝酒。

I never drank coffee in my life. I never liked the taste of it. I don't drink liquor either.

嗯，这很有趣，因为毒品...

Well, that's interesting because drugs

我能给你列出一大堆。人类已知的所有致幻剂我都试过，除了死藤水。从没尝试过，或许应该试试。

I'll give you too many. Hallucinogenics, everyone known to man, except for ayahuasca. I've never tried that. I guess I should.

好吧，有意思。所以当你坐在那里时——我猜你并非总在刻意追求那些情感时刻，但我觉得这正是作品的亮点。我准备这次访谈时，上YouTube看了些《返老还童》片段，结果根本看不下去，它们让我情绪太激动了。

Okay, interesting. Yeah. So what's you're sitting up there and I mean, certainly you're not always trying to get to some of those more emotional moments, but I think that's what stands out. For me, I was just getting ready for this, and I went into YouTube, started watching some clips from Button, and I couldn't watch them. They just moved me too much.

是的，那些场景确实充满情感。其实这也是我个人经历，创作期间我失去了双亲。

Yeah, I think they were quite emotional. Well, it was also a personal experience. I lost both my parents while I was writing it.

确实如此。

That's right.

所以这...这对我影响很大。我当时在想，要怎么把这种感受传递给观众？后来大卫·芬奇——我特别敬爱他——他竭尽全力让这个项目成功，要知道这完全不是他惯常的风格。

Yeah. So that it it it I was affected by that. And I said, how can I somehow? I don't know, translate this to the audience. Then David Finchu, who I love so much, he really bent over backwards to try to make this work, which I think is not is not the usual movie David would make.

明白我的意思吗？我觉得这可能与他失去父亲的经历有关，虽然不是同一年。大卫骨子里有种美好的人性光辉，他愿意尝试不同的创作方向。实际上他本人更坚韧，或者说带着种有益的冷峻气质。

You know what I'm saying? But he tried to I think it had to do with maybe the loss of his father, not that year. But so there's a humanity in David that's wonderful. And he was willing to take to go to kind of into a different direction. And he's much tougher and, you know, colder in a good way.

因此他愿意接纳我们情感层面的特质，并赋予其重要性。

And so he he was willing to take us for the emotional quality of that and make it feel important.

我可以询问关于你家人去世的事吗？

Is it Okay if I ask questions about the death of your family and

你可以问任何问题？

you can ask anything?

好的，我只是想确认一下。

Okay. Well, I just want to sure.

任何你想了解的，包括性方面。

Anything you want to know sexually.

好吧。谁知道十分钟后我们会聊到哪里？不。但这些会体现在黛西的角色中吗？比如，带我了解

All right. Well, who knows where we'll be in ten minutes now? No. But does that show up in Daisy's character? Like, walk me

黛西的...我在努力回忆，因为这是个综合体。我前妻曾是缅因州芭蕾舞团的舞者。是的。所以我设定她为芭蕾舞者。这点非常重要。

through Daisy's I'm trying to think because it's a it's a combination. My ex wife was a big ballet of Maine dancing. Yeah. So I made her a ballet dancer. So that was really important.

关键在于线条美感。

It's all about the line.

线条美感，没错。这进而引出了我认为很巧妙的设定——那个《滑动门》式的转折：如果出租车没有迟到，她就不会遭遇车祸，人生就不会因双腿无法继续芭蕾生涯而改变。但当时我可以...所以就这样设定了。故事背景是完全不同的时代。

The line. Exactly. And and then that led to me to the whole, which I think is pretty clever, the sliding doors thing with if the cab hadn't been late and the thing where she ends up getting hit by a car, which then changed her life because she got her legs where she couldn't use them as ballet anymore. But once I could so that was it. So I looked back and this is set in a whole different era.

但当时的芭蕾是什么样？是巴兰钦风格。这是我做的研究。然后你开始发现其中蕴含的极致美感，各种元素就这样层层叠加起来。

But what was a ballet then? It was Balanchine. And that was the research I did. And then you start looking at the things that could be so beautiful from it. So it one thing sort of starts going on top of another.

就像我在写的时候，我知道我妻子叫黛博拉，现在依然叫黛博拉。但你知道，我会和她一起去歌剧院看芭蕾舞，那真是太美了，音乐也如此动人。那么这个芭蕾舞者是谁？她又是怎么遇到那个男人的？明白吗？

Like I was writing that I would I know my wife's name was Deborah and it's still Deborah. But, you know, I would go to the opera I mean, the ballet with her, and it was just so beautiful, you know, and the music's so beautiful. And so who is this person who's a ballet dancer? And then how does she meet this guy? You know?

然后这又意味着什么？当她有了孩子，而孩子却在倒退成长，所有这些情节。懂吗？我是说，电影结尾处，当她抱着那个小婴儿——她深爱的男人的孩子——那个场景对我来说简直美得令人心碎。

And then what does that mean? And when she has a child and the child's going backwards, all that stuff. You know? I mean, it's like at the end of that movie, it's just so gorgeous to me when she has that little baby, you know, that's this man she loved. You know?

所以

And so

我叫什么名字？我叫什么名字？

What's My Name? What's My Name?

这相当了不起。我超爱那部电影。虽然绝不认为它完美无缺。现在用那些假体特效什么的，估计能做得几乎天衣无缝了。

It's pretty amazing. I love that movie. Yeah. It's I don't think it's perfect by any means. And I think you probably would now you could probably make it where it's almost flawless with the prosthetics and everything.

现在可能不需要那么多特效了。我拍了部叫《这里》的小成本电影，除了我们没人看好，不过最近听说有个亚文化群体挺追捧它。其实挺有创意的，等着瞧吧。那部也是我和鲍勃·泽米吉斯共同编剧，他执导，汤姆·汉克斯和罗宾·怀特主演。讲的是时间流逝中一个家庭的故事。

They don't need to probably do a lot of that anymore. I did this little movie called Here that didn't work for anybody except for us, even though now I think someone told me there's a whole subculture who's kind of embraced this movie. It's kind of pretty genius, and we'll see. But there again, was about was Bob Zemeckis and I wrote it together, and he directed Tom Hanks and Robin Wright. It's about time passing, you know, what happens to a family.

这就是我感兴趣的东西。所以

It's just the stuff I'm interested in. So

如果你写这种题材，怎么构思时间层次的交错？电影里用大量视觉手法表现这点，但写作时应该很难处理吧

if you're writing something like that, how did you think of the different layering of time? Because there was a lot of work that happened visually to communicate that, but I would imagine that's hard to do as you're

写剧本确实。我们得时刻梳理时间线，后来我才意识到这对鲍勃有多难——所有美术设计都要配合年代，比如台灯长什么样之类的。不过这个设定本身有内在逻辑，和故事主题是契合的。

writing scripts. Yeah. We we had to really keep track of and then I realized how hard it was gonna be for Bob with all the art direction they'd have to do, you know, and keep what what's what's the lamps look like and everything else, you know? But we were I mean, it it had its it had a sort of logic to it, you know, that was in keeping with what the piece was about.

后来呢？你发现了那本漫画书然后说

And what happened? You found the comic book and you said

不，不，我打给鲍勃了。我想拍《超时空接触》续集。我说，有没有可能

No, no, I called Bob. I wanted to do Contact two. I said, is there

这真是个大笑话。我知道。

That's a big joke. I know.

我问鲍勃这事能不能成。他说，呃，问题很大。卡尔·萨根的遗产由他妻子或什么人全权掌控。可能性稍微大点的是...他说，但你知道吗？

I said, is that something we could do, Bob? And he said, well, it's very problematic. Carl Sagan's estate or the wife or somebody owns the whole thing. It's a little more probable. He said, but you know what?

我有这本书。他就是这么说话的。拿着这本书。再看看这部图像小说，你觉得能改编电影吗？我看了就说，太棒了。

I have this book. Here's how he talks. Have this book here. And take a look at this this graphic novel and see if you think this is a movie. And I and I did, you know, I said, this is great.

我特别喜欢这个核心创意——无论你身处哪个时空，这就是你经历的人生。虽然这只是其中一种可能，但曾有无数其他人住过这同一栋房子。这让我想起《上帝之城》对公寓住户的精妙处理。时空的概念实在太迷人了。

I love the whole idea of this, you know, that we're it's all wherever you are in some space and time. This is what the lives are that you lead, you know, and this happens to be the one. But there had been all sorts of other people who lived in the same house. So it reminded me of City of God that did a wonderful thing with people who lived in an apartment. I mean, the whole thing of time and place is amazing.

我和马丁·斯科塞斯这么投缘，部分原因是我们都热爱普鲁斯特。时间究竟意味着什么？它如何流逝？你无法阻止，只能以某种方式珍惜。

I mean, one of the reasons Marty and I, Scorsese, get along so well is we both love Proust. And so this whole idea of what does time mean? I mean, how is it? And you can't stop it. You have to appreciate it in some way.

一方面它成为压迫生活的重负，另一方面也孕育美好。

One is it becomes a big crushing force in your life into the good, too. Well,

《阿甘正传》最独特之处在于展现人生轨迹。最让我破防的是离婚那段，他们分开实在太久了。

that's what's so unique about Gump Button. Here is we see the the arc of a life. I mean, here the. The part that melted me was when it was just when they get divorced. And there's been sure there's just been so long.

她捧着蛋糕那段独白很美：'我从没去过巴黎，从没能在夏天去黄石公园'...她列举所有错失的体验，最后终于一一实现。我还写了段有点煽情的小情节...

I thought it a beautiful speech when she has that cake and she said, I never I never went to Paris. I never got to go to Yellowstone in the summer. Whatever she gives, all the things that we miss out on, you know? And so she finally gets to do them. I was also I loved a little thing I wrote, which is kind of sappy.

我设计了他们感恩节团聚的戏。他说他们约定由她带中餐——这是我编的。然后我说'试试效果'，就开拍了。

But we had this kind of Thanksgiving of them together. And he said she's he says they agreed that she was going bring Chinese food. So I made that up. And then I said, let's see how this works. And I said, let's start.

他有个习惯，会说‘让我们开启一个新传统，先拆幸运饼干’，其实只是为了让我能写好这场戏。然后他拆开一个，上面写着‘旧爱将重回你身边’。他问‘这是真的吗？’她回答‘不’。

He has a thing where he says, let's start a new tradition, open the fortune cookies first, which is only so I can get the scene written. And and, you know, he opens one and it says, an old love will come back to you. And she says, he says, is that true? And she said, no. Yeah.

但事实上有人跟我说，可能饼干里根本就没这个签文，是他自己编的。我喜欢这个说法。

But and I actually was in somebody said, maybe that wasn't even the fortune that was in the fortune. Maybe he just made that up. I like that.

你有太多标志性的金句了。让我们回到《返老还童》，因为你说得对——我们注定要失去所爱之人，否则怎么知道他们有多重要？

You have so many one liners that are iconic. And let's go back to Button because you're right. We're meant to lose the people we love. How else would we know how important they are?

是的。不知道为什么这些句子会冒出来。我总担心它们听起来会特别矫情，也许确实如此。《返老还童》有趣的一点是，我为布拉德·皮特写了段很自豪的独白，是他要念给女儿听的信件部分，尽管他满世界跑。

Yes. I don't know why these things come. I mean, I'm always nervous about that. They're going to sound completely pretentious, you know, and maybe they are. One of the things that's interesting about the button is that I wrote a speech I'm really proud of that's in there about the Brad Pitt gives about part of a letter he's supposed to be reading aloud to his daughter, even though he's all over the world.

他说了些诸如‘我不知道，这事没有规则。如果你发现做得不如预期，随时可以重头再来’之类的话。结果人们把它做成牌匾挂墙上，却归功给了F。

And and he says things like, you know, I don't know, there's no rules to this. If you find that you're you're not doing it the way you wish you were, then you can start all over and all this. And so people. Have made it into like a plaque. You know, they have it on their walls, but they've attributed to F.

斯科特·菲茨杰拉德。

Scott Fitzgerald.

真的吗？哇。

Oh, really? Yeah.

其实是我写的，因为那本是出自他的短篇小说——其实最初是杂志文章。但总觉得好笑：天啊，他确实比我写得好，不过这段还不错对吧？

Actually, I wrote it and it's because it's from his short story, you know, which was actually a magazine article. But it was always funny. It's like, gee, I know he's a better writer than me. This is pretty good, though. You know?

我试图串联这些事，但有趣的是你本人如此接地气。你写过那么多标志性台词，对人们来说既煽情又珍贵，可你总说‘啊，但我不想显得太俗气’。你总在走这种微妙的分界线。

I'm trying to kind of bring all these things together, but it's funny because just your presence for it down to earth. And you've written so many lines that are very that are very iconic, sentimental, valuable to people. But then you keep saying, ah, but I don't want it to almost be cheesy or something like that. You kinda draw this very fine line.

是啊，必须小心把握。我觉得没人能真正教你怎么写这些。或许你希望它们能成为经典。像阿甘说起来就自然些，他本来就会用格言式的话讲道理。

Yeah. Well, you have to try to be careful. I don't think you also necessarily said how to write these things. You know, maybe you hope they'll become something. I mean, Forrest comes a little easier because he would speak with aphorisms, you know, about things.

而且，你知道，有时候就是没有足够的石头，或者说，傻人有傻福。我是说，他说的所有那些话，如果是对人们说的，它们就会变得令人难忘。你知道，那只是个幸运的副产品。所以我可以这么说，

And, you know, sometimes there just aren't enough rocks or, you know, stupid is as stupid does. I mean, all the stuff that he said, you know, if they were for people, they they become memorable. You know, that was that was a lucky byproduct. So I could say, you know,

我是说，即使在《阿甘正传》里，经典台词是‘生活就像一盒巧克力，你永远不知道下一颗是什么味道’。但书里的原话是‘做白痴可不是一盒巧克力’。

I mean, even in Gump, the classic one is life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get. But the book line is being an idiot is no box of chocolates.

是啊。我不知道为什么要改这句。我就是...不知道。完全没头绪。只是当时感觉该那么写。

Yeah. I don't know why I changed this. I just I don't know. I have no idea. That's what just what it felt like to me.

对。其实我都不确定这话有多大意义。‘生活像盒巧克力，永远不知道该怎么办’。嗯，大概吧。

Yeah. I mean, I'm not even sure that makes much sense. Life is like a box of chocolates. Never know what to do. Yeah, I guess.

你知道，这不会是我最喜欢的台词，尽管可能是最令人难忘的。我更喜欢‘有时候就是没有足够的石头’，还有她朝那房子扔石头的场景。有些创伤一旦造成就无法挽回，懂吧？但很多时候我确实试图写些...希望能被人记住的东西。

You know, it wouldn't be my favorite one, even though that may be the most memorable. You know, I still I liked the sometimes there just aren't enough rocks and she's throwing those rocks at that house. You can't undo things that happened and made you traumatized and everything else, you know. But many times I try to write things that would be, you know, hopefully would be remembered, you know? Yeah.

特别是那部电影。我在想现在写的剧本，可能有些台词会让人印象深刻。早期西西里黑手党有句谚语‘我们做必须做的事’，我经常用这句。

And for that movie in particular. Yeah. I'm just trying to think what I'm writing now, whether there's I think there might be some things that are kind of memorable, some of the sayings. The early mafia in Sicily had a saying, we do what we must. I have that a lot.

什么意思？意思是我们会为了自保、维护荣誉之类的事不择手段。就像《教父》里那些经典台词，‘给他一个无法拒绝的条件’，‘把卡诺里带走，把枪留下’。

What does that mean? It means that we're going to do what we have to do to sort of protect ourselves, protect, you know, our honor, whatever it is. And then so that. It's it's used a bunch of times, you know, it's like think of the Godfather, the great things that came out of that. You know, it's like, you know, make him an offer he can't refuse and, you know, take the cannoli, leave the gun.

你知道，那么多精彩绝伦的台词。我敢说他们创作时根本没多想，就是自然流露的角色语言。

You know, I mean, it's just so many great, great lines. And I'm sure they didn't think of it that way. They just they just came out of, you know, what was natural to the people's language.

你写角色时，会让他们说出你自己绝不会说的话吗？还是说你觉得对这些角色拿捏得很准？

When you're writing characters, do you find them saying things that you feel like you would have never said? Or are you like, no, I feel like I got a good grasp of these

这些人？说实话我不觉得他们是真实存在的人。除非像《惊爆内幕》那种基于真实人物的作品，否则我更倾向于认为创作是种幻想。

these people? Don't think I mean, honestly, I don't think they're real people. I mean, I'm not sure I'm going I'm going for some authenticity within their characters. But unless I'm doing something that's more like the insider, which is about real people, I don't know. Otherwise, I see it as fanciful in a way.

换句话说，尽管我试图让他们感觉自己拥有生命、拥有各自的问题、拥有一整套犯罪事实等等。确实存在这样的人物。但我称他们为月亮的另一面。我的意思是，真正的好电影会经久不衰。但几乎就像我说的他们是月亮的另一面，因为这仍能让人联想到《教父》里的弗雷多和迈克尔，你知道，当他亲吻他说'我爱你'的时候，还有那句'永远不要'之类的。

In other words, even though I try to make them feel like they're that they have a life, they have their issues, they have a whole body of corpus delicti and all that. And there's somebody who exists. I But call them the other side of the moon. In other words, really good movies last. But it's almost like I say they're other side of the moon because, I mean, it still can feel like Fredo and Michael and the godfather, you know, where he's saying, you know, when he kisses him, said, I loved you, you know, and don't you ever, whatever.

但这几乎就像它已经消逝了，你知道。就像《阿甘正传》，即使我在电视频道切换时看到它，我也会停下来一直看到结束。所以我认为伟大的电影会历久弥新，伟大的文学作品、音乐以及这些成为你一部分的东西也是如此。但我一直喜欢这个想法：这些人在过着他们的谎言生活，而我们过着我们的，他们在某种程度上是真实的。但这一切都是虚构的，明白吗？

But it's almost like it's gone going, you know. It's like with Forrest Gump, it's even I, if I see it's on television, if I'm flipping the channels, I'll stop and I'll I'll watch it till the end, you know. So I think great movies kind of last, you know, and I guess great literature does and music and all these things that are part of you. But I always felt I always liked this idea that these these these people are living these lies while we're going about ours, that they're real to that extent. But it's all fiction, you know?

是的。你知道，他们身上没有任何真实的东西。

Yeah. You know, it's not nothing real about them.

所以你用了'奇幻'这个词。那么你觉得奇幻在哪里结束，而夸张或卡通化的表现从哪里开始呢？

So you used the word fanciful. So how do you where does fanciful kind of end in caricature or cartoonish begins?

我认为你必须非常小心。是的，我觉得这正是你要尽量避免的，这样即使明知是虚构的，他们仍感觉真实。对我来说，《阿甘正传》就是《老实人》，那部著名戏剧讲述了一个随波逐流的男人，该来的来，不该来的不来。这有点特别，因为它总是遵循同样的三幕或四幕莎士比亚式结构。

I think you got to be real careful. Yeah, I think that's that's what you want to try to avoid so that they do feel real, even though you're going in knowing they're not. Right. This Forrest Gump to me was Candide, which is a famous play about a kind of a guy who's just going through life and what's coming comes and what doesn't come doesn't come. And it's a little unusual because it's it always has the same three act or four act Shakespearean structure.

我不在乎你是谁，你在做什么。你无法打破这个结构。你知道，最简化的版本就是：第一幕陈述问题，第二幕使问题复杂化，第三幕解决或不解决问题，随你怎么决定。这些都无关紧要。

I don't care what who you are, what you're doing. You can't break that. You know, you're going to the real simplistic version is you you state the problem in the first act, complicate the problem in the second act. Third act, you resolve it or don't resolve it, whatever you decide to do. And it doesn't matter.

你可以把它倒过来看。你可以正着来反着来，但它始终会有三幕结构。最终你会达到情感宣泄，或是机械降神的结局。这就是戏剧化的本质部分。比如我写过一版《克里奥帕特拉》，我觉得自己做得不错，但我和莎士比亚掌握的是同样的史料——因为那个时代几乎没有与她同时代的真实记载。

You can stand it on its head. You can do it backwards and forwards, and it always will have three acts. You'll come to eventually a catharsis or deusis machina got in a machine. And that's that's just part and parcel of what it is to dramatize something. I mean, it's always interesting to me, like I wrote a version of Theopatra, which I thought I did a pretty good job, but I knew the same material that Shakespeare did because they they really didn't have anything that was contemporaneous with her.

只有零星半点。都是150年后历史学家写的。但他拥有的材料也一样。要知道这些都是真实存在的人，虽然很难相信，因为关于他们的种种传说——但那些都不是虚构的。

Very little bit. So it's like from a historian 150 later. But he had the same. These were real people, you know, and it's hard to believe because of all the things that, you know, that you think about them. None of that's fanciful, though.

我更多是在说那种...怎么说呢，就像《阿甘正传》里那种朦胧虚幻的特质。那些角色并不真实，但在两个半小时里却拥有了真实感。

I'm talking more about these kind of what's the word, even the miasmic kind of quality of a forest gump or something. They're just not real, you know, but they take on a reality for that two and a half hours.

当你在书里或电影中看到一个让你感觉呆板空洞的角色时，那是...

And when you see a character in a book, in a movie that you feel like is wooden, that's hollow. What's

通常我不喜欢这样。我甚至不会开始读那些我觉得名字不真实、像是编造的书，我会直接放弃阅读。是的，我是说，我在这里有些矛盾，因为我想要一些真实性。但另一方面，我不介意人们像你说的那样，在某种程度上近乎卡通化。但我更希望他们能让人感觉——我是说，人们哭泣不是因为他们像卡通或酒吧里的人，而是人们拥抱他们时认为这是值得关心的人物。

what's what's usually I don't like it. I don't like I'll even start books where if I don't think the names seem accurate to where they feel like they're invented, I sort of stop reading. Yeah, I mean, I just I want I mean, I'm mixed here because I want some authenticity. But on the other hand, I don't mind people being, as you say, almost cartoon to some extent. But I'd rather they were felt as I mean, people cry not because they're cartoons and bars, but people people embrace them thinking this is somebody worth caring about.

这是《本杰明·巴顿奇事》的开头。你说，像所有事情一样，它始于黑暗。眼睛睁开，蓝色的眼睛。它们首先看到的是一位年近四十的女人站在窗前，望着风吹动、摇晃窗户的情景。那么这里发生了什么？

This from the beginning of The Curious Case, Benjamin Button. You say, as all things do, it begins in the dark. Eyes blink open, blue eyes. The first thing they see is a woman near 40 standing, looking out a window, watching the wind blowing, rattling a window. So what's going on there?

你在想什么呢？

And how are you thinking about?

嗯，我想过这一点，它始于黑暗是因为这就像一个人的出生。

Well, thought about that, that it begins in the dark because it's like somebody being born.

哇。

Wow.

换句话说，那就是黑暗。换句话说，一切始于黑暗。然后，你知道，这是一个婴儿的诞生。接着是我写的散文，让你置身于这样的情境中：他已经有蓝色的眼睛和一个四十多岁的女人。所以你早就知道这个女人存在，可能是他的母亲，我猜。

In other words, that's the darkness. In other words, everything begins in the dark. And then that for that, you know, it's a baby being born. Then there's the prose that I wrote to put you in the in the situation of, you know, already has blue eyes and a woman in her forties. So you already know this woman exists, probably his mother, I guess.

然后我想这是一个很好的电影时刻，因为这同样重要。当她站在窗前，风吹得窗户嘎嘎作响。我喜欢这个。我经常用这个。不是风吹窗户，而是我喜欢电影中人物的衣服被风吹动的样子。

And then I guess it's a good cinema moment just because this is just as big. But when she's standing at the window, the window's winds rattling it. I like that. I use that a lot. Not the wind rattling windows, but I like when people in movies have their clothes are being ruffled by wind or something.

这在某种程度上让时间停滞了，你知道的。我今天就这么做了。实际上我写了类似的东西。是关于一个教堂婚礼正在进行，外面风很大，应该是在新奥尔良，教堂的窗户在风中嘎嘎作响。

It stops time to a certain extent, you know. I did that today. I wrote something actually similar. It's about it was a church wedding that's going on and and there's sort of a. It was very windy outside, supposed to be in New Orleans, and and the windows are rattling in the church.

然后导演喜欢选择让窗户摇晃的程度，或者完全不摇晃。他可能觉得这很蠢，但这样会给你一种感觉，一种时间和地点的感觉，你明白我的意思吗？所以即使在那一点上，我觉得也很好，因为这在两句话的空间里告诉了你很多。我想我总是知道开头和结尾的场景。

And so and then the director loves choice to how much he wants to make them rattle or not rattle at all. He may think it's stupid, you know, but it will give you it'll give you a feeling of what's. Feeling of the time and place, you know what I'm saying? So that even in that, that's pretty good, I think, because that tells you a lot in the space of like two sentences. I think I always always know the beginning scenes and the end scene.

在我写过的所有电影中，唯一改变的是《慕尼黑》。他移动了场景。原本我想只是在布鲁克林的街上，但他把它移到了世贸中心外面，那里在他拍摄电影时已经不存在了。但除此之外，我认为开场场景极其重要。所以你要把观众带入故事，然后结尾必须处理得当，让他们离开时要么因为所见而振奋，要么被感动，或者觉得主题还有很多可以探讨的地方。

And the only one in any movie I've ever written that changed was in Munich. He moved it. It was, I think, just on the street in Brooklyn, but he moved it to be outside the World Trade Center, which is no longer there, you know, when he filmed the movie. So but otherwise, I think it's I think opening scenes are incredibly important. So you just, you know, bringing the audience in and then the ending, you have to hopefully get right so that they're they leave feeling either exalted by what they just saw or moved by it or, you know, that there's still lots to do with the theme of it.

你知道的，森林指南针，关于命运的羽毛，或者它只是随机的，对吧？然后它下一步会指向哪里？因为每个人都有自己的人生，明白吗？这些都是你会思考的事情。然后在拍电影时，你必须尝试将它们可视化，这样观众才能清楚地理解你在表达什么。

You know, the forest compass, the feather about the destiny or is it, you know, is it just random, you know? And then where is it going to go next? Because everybody has their own life, you know? So those are all the things you think about. And then you have to try to visualize them when you're doing a movie so that they are made clear to an audience what you're saying.

当布拉德·皮特拿散文开玩笑时，他指的是我们刚读的内容。是的。相对于仅仅是对话。

When Brad Pitt makes the joke about prose, he's talking about what we just read. Yes. Versus just the dialogue.

是的。不，远不止如此。我是说，现在很多人可能只写两行。你知道，就是'布鲁克林的秋天'，然后写'外景 布鲁克林 夜晚'。描述季节后就直接进入场景。

Yeah. No, it's more than that. I mean, many people now will write maybe just two lines. You know, it's it's it's it's fall in Brooklyn and it'll go exterior Brooklyn night. It's fall and then they'll go into the scene.

对，可能只是段对话。没错。

Yeah, it may be just a dialog. Yeah.

所以这意味着你在构思时非常注重视觉呈现

So that means you're very visual as you're

是的，我倾向于高度视觉化。有些导演不喜欢这样，他们认为我提供的信息过多——因为我还会描述氛围。而他们有时不喜欢这种设定，虽然我认为氛围本该如此。

thinking about to be very visual. I like some directors don't like it. They think I'm giving I'm giving too much because I also give tone in it And they don't sometimes they don't like that, which is a tone I think it should be.

她叫黛西·富勒，说话带着南方腔调。

Her name is Daisy Fuller. She speaks with a southern lilt.

不错。确实，她就是这样的。

Nice. Yeah. Well, she does.

这正是你所说的意思，对吧？就像，就是这样。

That's exactly what you're saying, right? Like, that's that's.

但导演可能...导演可能不觉得她说话带南方腔调。

But the director may the director may not feel she speaks with the southern lilt.

那么关于这段对话，你在看什么，卡罗琳？风之母。他们说飓风要来了。你一直在睡觉。我在等着见你。

So with the the dialogue, what are you looking at, Caroline? The wind mother. They say a hurricane is on its way. You've been asleep. I was waiting to see you.

为什么电影要从那里开始？

Why start the movie there?

有时候从结尾开始挺好的，然后你可以回溯告诉我们他们为什么会在那里。你知道吗？我不知道。这是个好问题。感觉对了，我想。

Sometimes it's good to start at the end and then you can go back and tell us why they're there. You know? I don't know. That's a good question. Felt right, I guess.

再告诉我一些关于主题的事。主题是你找到主题，引出主题，然后一次又一次地回到它。而这次对话中贯穿始终的核心张力再次显现，就是让

Tell me more about the theme. Themes of you find the theme, you bring out the theme, and you kinda come back to it over and over again. And once again, the the the core tension that has shown up the thread through all of this conversation is making

a

a

很多东西变得简单明了，但又徘徊在过于卡通化的边缘，几乎污染了整个事情，欺骗了

lot of these things simple and explicit, but not but teetering at the edge of going too far cartoonish where you just you almost pollute the whole thing and cheat

嗯，很多人不喜欢《阿甘正传》，比如。他们认为它太甜腻，或者那不是真实的情感，或者那种情感是可以的。我是说，就像球弹跳的方式，你知道，比如我认为《花月杀手》是我写过的最好的电影之一，是关于正义的，不可避免地关于正义，这些人没有得到任何正义。你知道，换句话说，你可能还能说出14个其他东西，但那一直在我脑海里。你

Well, on a lot of people don't like forest gum, for instance. They think it's saccharin or that's not real emotion or that's emotion, which is fine. I mean, it's like just the way the ball bounces, you know, like I think Killers of the Flower Moon, which is one of the better movies I think I wrote, is about justice and inevitably about justice, how these people didn't get any justice. You know, in other words, and you could probably say 14 other things, but that was always on my mind. You

知道，正义。

know, justice.

正义。是的。我是说，换句话说，我们对他们做了什么？你知道，别提人类的残忍之类，我是说，我认为那几乎是与整个事情同谋的。但哪怕只有一刻的正义呢？

Justice. Yeah. I mean, in other words, what what do we do to them? You know, never mind man's inhumanity and all that, which is I mean, I think it's just almost complicit with the whole thing. But what about just one moment of justice?

你知道，我是说，它最初是这样结束的。也许还在那里，有人说你得到了正义，而他说，没有正义。他说，陪审团判一个人踢狗比杀印第安人更重的可能性一样大。你知道，所以你感受到这是一种在美国的漫长历史。它很激烈，经历了很多事情，你知道。

You know, I mean, it ended originally. Maybe it's still there where somebody says you got justice and he says, There's no justice. He said, A jury is just as likely to find a man to to sentence a man for kicking a dog more than he will for killing an Indian. You know, so you get a sense of the it's a it's a long history in America. It's intense, it's through a lot of stuff, you know.

而这一点我现在非常感兴趣，因为正午时分的复仇。这是男性的特质吗？我相信也有女性渴望复仇。但这意味着什么？愤怒等等又该如何理解？

And this this I'm very interested in right now because of high noon in vengeance. Is that a male characteristic? I'm sure there are females who also want vengeance. But what does that what does that mean? How what does that mean about anger and everything?

所以我对此很感兴趣。我和马蒂正在写的这个故事，某种程度上是关于我们被培养成的样子，最终我们会成为的样子。我未必如此，但这些人在1860、1870年代的西西里长大，他们前途未卜。但他们属于黑手党，他们信仰这个，永远无法真正脱身。他们会做必须做的事，或者说我们会做我们该做的。

So I'm interested in that. And this thing I'm writing with Marty right now is about kind of what we were brought up to be, we end up being in a way. And I'm not necessarily, but these people were brought up in 1860, 1870 in Sicily, and they went uncertain. But they were part of a mafia and and they believe in what this is and they're not going to really ever get out of it. And they do what they have to do or we will do what we do.

我们必须这样做。对，没错。

We must. Right. Yeah.

这些问题和主题有一种纪律性，你知道，就像你可以选择一个简单的主题，但总觉得肤浅或平淡。但我的大脑似乎不这么运作，我无法像你那样抓住一个简单主题持续深入。你仿佛对主题有种信念，能够——

There's a discipline about the questions, a discipline about the themes, you know, like you could take, oh, we're just going to do a simple theme and and and somehow it feels. Shallow or flat, but it seems like like my brain doesn't work like this. I can't take a very simple theme and just keep going like I think you can. It's like you have like a faith in the theme and just the ability to

做到。

do.

坚持到底。

A stick with it.

电影最终要表达的核心。是的。所以如果我在某个场景遇到困难，我会问：这与电影主题有何关联？我可以天马行空，也可以紧扣主题。关键在于发现你所说的内容如何与这部电影的主旨产生联系。

What the movie is eventually about. Yeah. And that so if I get in trouble with the scene, I'll say, how does this apply to the theme of the movie? And I can go far afield or be close to home with it. But to find it interesting as to what are you saying relating to what this movie is supposed to be about.

嗯。这样你就不会偏离太远。

Mhmm. So that you don't try not to go too far afield.

我读到过什么来着——如果卡住了，就改变天气。

What is it that I read about If you do get stuck, change the weather.

改变天气。

Change the weather.

跟我说说那个。我喜欢那个。

Tell me about that. I like that one.

非常简单。我是说，就像你遇到创作瓶颈时最接近的状态——卡住了。然后我就想，好吧，我要让天下雨。突然间你就能以不同视角看待它。你知道，感觉就像某个雨天的周日下午，或者你让天下雪，随你怎么设定。

It's very simple. I mean, it's like if you that's as close as I get to writer's block is that you're stuck. And I just think, well, I think I'll make it rain. And all of a sudden you look at it differently. You know, it feels like a Sunday afternoon in the rain or you make it snow, whatever you want to do.

我似乎总爱用雨天。但突然间你会发现人们的行为有了微妙变化。这对我来说像是解锁了可能性，总能启发我思考故事的新走向。你知道，他们穿上外套，戴上帽子出门之类的。我最近写的有个情节就很喜欢——哦，当时应该是要刮大风的。

I always go to the rain, it seems. But all of a sudden you have people acting slightly differently. And sort of unlocks to me or always unlock me as to where I can go with this now. You know, you know, they're putting on coats, they're going out, they're putting on a hat, whatever it is, you know, I do want to try to think what I wrote recently I really liked about. Oh, I was very windy, supposed to be very windy.

我写马蒂那场戏时遇到了困难，后来决定把场景设在狂风大作的地方，所有人的帽子都被吹飞。所以我需要——我是说真想用上五十顶帽子

I got in trouble with the scene I was writing this thing for Marty, and I decided I'd make it really windy where they are and people's hats are all coming off. So you have a whole I mean, I would like to have 50 hats

像龙卷风似的。

like a swirl.

对，帽子全在打转。我觉得效果挺不错的，是吧？

Yeah, they're all swirling around. I think that looked like pretty good, you know?

所以天气元素之外，还有其他可以

So the weather, there are other ones that you can

调动的。我不记得是否经常用这招。但我很注重时间设定。比如你要表现忧郁氛围，可以放在临近黄昏，或是黎明时分，又或是暮色四合之时。

go to. Don't think I don't think I ever did it too much, you know. But I'm big. I will say that that is a corollary that I'm big on what time of day it is. So I like if you're doing something that kind of feels melancholic, maybe have it late in your day, right before evening, or maybe something at dawn, you know, or dusk.

就像老剧本里常写的：'在黑暗与白昼之间，当灯光渐暗，日常劳作暂停的时刻，被称作孩童时光'——莉莉安·海尔曼的名句。你能想象布鲁克林街头五点光景，母亲们正要唤孩子回家吃饭。那种众人默契停顿的氛围，虽无要事发生，却有种可触摸的质感，懂吗？

Know, it's like they used to put in the scripts. This is a saying from Between the dark and the daylight, when the lights begin to lower comes a pause in the day's occupation, which is known as the children's hour, as Lillian Hellman. So you get a sense of five on a street in Brooklyn and about people or mothers are about to call their kids in for dinner. And there's this pause that kind of everybody everybody's doing it. No one's doing anything that may be of any importance, but it's like something that you can almost touch, you know?

我太爱这种描述了。

I love that.

嗯，你的电影最棒的地方在于，那些真正打动观众的瞬间往往就是些日常片段，这意味着我想你对生活一定有着敏锐的感知力。

Well, what's cool about your movies is that the moments that really move us as viewers are just kind of everyday moments, which means that I would imagine there's gotta be a sensitivity to life that you have.

是啊。我觉得我有这种敏感度，但我不认为自己能比得上现在有位叫杰克·杰克·索恩的编剧。

Yeah. I think I do, but I don't think I'm as good as there's a writer now named Jack Jack Thorne.

好吧。

Okay.

他和另一位编剧演员合作写了《青春期》。他已经完成了五六部作品，非常擅长在戏剧性情境中刻画最基础的人性。我不确定自己在这方面能比他强。他写过一部关于残障权益的动人作品——他本人就是残障权利的积极倡导者。还有部在BritBox或Acorn TV上播出的剧，讲一个15岁左右患肌肉萎缩症的小女孩。

He wrote Adolescence along with this that other writer actor. And he's done five or six things, and he's quite extraordinary at doing the most basic things within dramatic situations. And I'm not sure I'm as good as him that way. It's kind of a very moving thing he did about he's big on disabled rights. And he has a thing that was on like BritBox or Acorn TV about a girl, a little girl who's like 15, I think, who has, I think, muscular dystrophy.

她注定要死去，这引发了父母间的激烈冲突——母亲想尽一切办法维持她的生命，而父亲认为她现在处于昏迷状态，基本上想要放弃治疗。但他在这种极端情境下依然展现了非常人性化的行为。真正令人惊叹的是，戏剧性并不总是来自事件本身。

And she's doomed and becomes a battle between her parents about one parent want to do everything to keep her alive. And then he thinks he thinks she's in a coma now. And the father wants to pull the plug, basically. But he then does such normal human things within that. That's really quite amazing where it's not always about what the drama is.

比如有个小细节我很喜欢：他开车去上班时有人坐进车里，递给他一片口香糖。他说不用了，对方却说'不，你需要这个'。

And, you know, like I just I just liked one little moment where he got in a car and someone got in with him. He's driving to work, I think. And the guy offers him a stick of gum. And he says, no, thanks. He said, yeah, you need this.

懂吗？其实就是暗示他有口臭。明白我的意思吗？他就是能在剧情中融入这种人性的细节，让你更喜欢这些角色，也更理解他们。

You know? So it's just like, he had bad breath. You know what I'm saying? So it's like he was able to put this humanity in there. It makes you like the characters more and understand them better.

你觉得每个角色都必须讨人喜欢才重要吗？还是说...

You feel like it's important for every character to be likable or No.

这个嘛，反派也能成就伟大的电影。如果能塑造出精彩的反派，故事就成功了一半。不，我不认为角色必须讨喜，但观众应该有机会理解他们的行为动机——即使最终未必能完全理解。比如我对精神变态者的心理就难以共情，但总能接近某种程度的理解。

I think it's well, look, villains make great movies, you know. If you can find a great villain, you're in good shape. No, I don't think they should be likable. I think you should potentially understand why they are what makes them tick, even if you may not always understand it. I mean, I'm not sure I understand psychopaths or something, but you can get close to figuring something out.

当涉及过着正常生活的人时就更复杂了——没有人把手伸进烤箱自残，没有遭受过严重到想杀人的心理创伤。比如科伦拜校园事件那两个男孩，他们看似有着正常生活和体面的父母，在披萨店打工等等。为什么决定去枪杀那么多人？比我聪明的人才能解答这个问题，我实在不明白。

It gets a little more complicated when people have kind of normal lives where no one's putting their hand in an oven or something, you know, where you're getting hurt, where you're traumatized so bad that you want to lash out and kill somebody. You wonder, for instance, about those and smarter person than me would have to tell me those two boys at Columbine who had seemingly a pretty normal life and decent parents. You know, they worked at a pizza parlor and this and that. Why did they decide to go shoot all these people? And I don't know the answer.

说过好几次了。是什么让他们如此行事？

Said that a few times. What makes them tick?

是啊，是什么驱使他们？他们为何成为这样的人？没错。我是说，当你读足够多关于反社会者的资料时，就会开始明白，对吧？可能是什么原因造成的，他们又是谁？

Yeah, what makes them tick? Why are they who they are? Yeah. I mean, you're going to start understanding when you read enough about sociopaths, right? What's caused it possibly and who are they?

精神病态者。但当有人做出出乎意料、超出你预期的事情时，你知道，这就塑造了非常有趣的角色。我引入了一个——我不确定效果会如何——但在同一部马蒂电影里，我写了个负责为我们主角处理事务的律师是个小个子。他是个典型的南方角色。所以我们看看...

Psychopaths. But when somebody does something surprising that's not within what you expect, you know, so that that makes really interesting characters, you know. I brought in I'm not I'm not sure how this is going to work, but in this same Marty movie, I'm writing that the lawyer who takes charge of things for our our our hero or our main character is a small person. He's like a great southern character. So we'll see how

你塑造了这么多南方角色。

you got all these southern characters.

其实这是新...

Well, this is a New

奥尔良两部电影。

Orleans two movies.

不，我还有其他的。新奥尔良。对，没什么特别的。只是1890年那里发生了极具历史意义的事件。故事就发生在那儿。

No, I got this other ones. New Orleans. Yes, nothing. This was just there was just a great historical interest interest in 1890 that happened. And that's just where it was.

你知道，

You know,

比如俄克拉荷马州的花月杀戮事件。你看，故事带你去哪儿你就去哪儿，我觉得你对此有选择权。然后人们会按照他们的成长方式行事——想想为什么原住民被送进那些天主教学校，被剪头发之类的？通过这些细节，你就能构建出这些人可能成为的样子。对，所以...

know, the kills of flower moons in Oklahoma. You know, you go where it takes you and I think you have a choice about it, you know, every and every and then people act how they're, you know, they're brought up then, you know, why did the Native Americans were sent to all these Catholic schools, you know, and had their haircut and all this stuff? I mean, so you start building up with the details what these people might become. Yeah. So

电影开头你规划好了，结尾也定了。现在中间部分，有多少...

you got the beginning of the movie planned out. You got the end of it planned out. Now in the middle, how much

惊喜的是，它看起来像一大团模糊的东西。我毫无头绪。对我来说，你知道，就像在问接下来的三个场景是什么？我总是希望在写完一天的内容后，能有一个我基本满意的场景，这样第二天就不用直接与之对抗。我希望它能成为某种东西，不管是否令人痛苦，但至少你会觉得这是很棒或很好的内容。

surprise It you seems like a great big blob. I have no clue. I get me, you know, it's like, what's the next three scenes? And I always want to leave the day of writing with a scene I basically lick so I don't have to go straight fight with it the next day. I can make it something hopefully that'll, you know, sore or not, but at least you'll feel like this is something that's great or good.

第二天早上醒来时，我会去处理那个场景。这样你就不会害怕，你知道，我在这里面对什么？所以我总是用一个词来概括，比如连续五个场景，你知道的，婚礼枪战什么的。你明白我的意思吗？就是这样。

And I'm going to go approach that the next morning when I woke up. So you're not afraid of, you know, what am I facing here? And so I always I outline just with one word, like five scenes in a row, you know, wedding shootout, whatever. You know what I'm saying? So that's it.

然后它开始掌控故事。你知道，你想讲述的内容和你前进的方向。当你进入最后一幕时，你知道你要在哪里结束这个故事。所以你必须开始构建什么是吸引力，什么是动作，你想对人物说什么，他们发生了什么，他们感觉如何，你知道吗？所以在开始时，你开始探索他们是谁，他们可能会让你惊讶，也可能不会。

And then it starts taking hold of the story. You know, you want to tell and where you're going. And as you get to the last act as to what you know, where you're going to end this thing. So you have to try to start building on what is attention, what is the movement, what do you want to say about the people, what happens to them, how do they feel, you know? So in the beginning, you start to you start exploring who they are and they may surprise you or may not.

然后在中间部分，你想对他们做一些事情，你对他们的确定性不如开始时那么强。也许他们做的事情甚至，你知道，是出人意料的，或者在某些方面让你感到困惑。然后你又回来尝试完成整个故事，你知道的。

And then the middle, they you want to sort of do things to me that you're not as sure as you were in the beginning as to they were. And maybe they're doing things that are even, you know, exceptional or something that confuses you in a way. And then you're back to try and now finish that finish the whole tale, you know.

作为编剧在思考剧本时，我说的是有角色维度、主题维度和情节维度。

As a writer's thinking through scripts, what I'm saying is there's the character dimension, there's the theme dimension, there's the plot dimension.

是的，对我来说很好。还有对话，你必须说出你要说的话。然后你还要考虑它在视觉上和听起来会是什么样子。你还必须回到作品的音乐性上，对话是什么样的。我是说，有各种程度。

Yeah, good for me. And dialog, you have to say what you're saying. And then you also have what it's going to look like visually and sound like. You have to also get back into the music of the piece is and what is the dialogue like. I mean, there's all the degrees.

大部分情况下，或者你可以非常简单，写一个可能甚至有一个伟大主题的故事。你不必拥有我投入的所有东西，但这是我享受的一部分。有些人几乎毫不费力地做到了。他们根本不需要与之对抗。

Most of it's Or you can be just very simplistic and write a story that has maybe even a great theme. And you don't have to have all the stuff that I go into, but that's part of what I enjoy. And some people do it almost effortlessly. They don't have to fight it at all.

你谈到它会是什么样子。你是如何扩展、完善和磨练你的视觉调色板的？

You talk about what it's going to look like. How have you expanded, refined, honed your visual palette?

我不知道。我总是有一个非常好的视觉思维，知道什么会构成一个好场景。换句话说，比如新奥尔良会有什么令人难忘的东西，什么会很棒。我不会告诉你我做了什么，但它非常棒。是的，真的很棒。

I don't know. I always had a pretty great visual mind as to what I think would make a good scene. In other words, what what would be memorable about New Orleans, for instance, and what would be great. I'm not going to tell you what I did, but it's pretty great. Yeah, it's really great.

我是说，我认为这是某种几乎意料之中但又出乎意料的东西。我认为这是非常特别的东西，人们会说，哦，是的，我记得当他们做了X、Y和Z时的场景，你知道吗？然后还有一些你学到的东西是你不知道的。我没有意识到他们在1890年就已经有了一辆有轨电车。实际上，我想它是在1840年发明的。

I mean, I think it's something that's almost expected, but unexpected. That I think it's something that's be very special that people say, Oh, yeah, I remember the scene when they did X, Y and Z, you know? And then there's things you learn that you didn't know. I didn't realize they had a streetcar already there in 1890. Actually, it was, I think, found in 1840.

那么我该怎么乘坐有轨电车呢？

And so how do I use a streetcar?

你是要去新奥尔良吗？

Do you go to New Orleans?

我去过那里。虽然是在本杰明那条线上，但我去过好几次了。是啊，还有其他经历。我最早的工作之一就是重写一部保罗·纽曼的电影剧本。

I've been there. I mean, it was on Benjamin, but I've been there a few times. Yeah. And other things. Went one of my first jobs was to rewrite a Paul Newman movie.

那时我非常年轻。他们派我去路易斯安那州。我常讲这个故事——我买了条新灯芯绒裤，拎着人造革公文包走进片场，保罗就说：我们的救世主来了。你说得对，我当时真的才19岁。

I was very young. And they sent me down to Louisiana. And I always tell this story, but I bought a new pair of corduroys and had a faux leather briefcase and walked on the set and Paul said, Our savior's here. You're right. I was like literally 19 years old.

就像个孩子。而且总是很兴奋，你知道，听到人们的反馈很兴奋，看到电影成片很兴奋，看演员如何诠释你写的台词，那些我有幸合作的导演天才们如何构思这些场景，在大多数情况下都比我想象的更有趣。不是所有情况，但很多很多都是。最后它就变成了完整的娱乐作品。我觉得在流媒体上也能做到同样效果。

It's like a kid. And and it's always exciting, you know, that you and it's exciting to hear what people you know, it's exciting to see the movie, hear what the characters are saying, how they interpret it, what you wrote, what these genius directors I've been lucky enough to work with, how they envision these things and make them much more, I think in most cases, more interesting than you imagine it's going to be. Not all cases, but in many, many, many. And then it becomes this whole thing that's an entertainment, you know? And I don't have a I mean, I think you can do the same thing on a streamer.

比如剧集《青春期》，正因为它是当下题材，剧本和表演都令人惊叹。它会让你突然思考起从未想过的事，关心起原本不在意的东西。

You know, the show Adolescence, just because it's contemporary right now, it's amazing. The writing, the acting. So that it just makes you think about things that all of a sudden you hadn't thought about and care about things you might not care about.

像新奥尔良这样的地方，你会做笔记吗？

So a place like New Orleans, do you are you a notetaker in terms of?

会一点。但不会太疯狂。不。我会记下重点来提醒自己该做什么。比如就写个'张力'。

A little bit. Not not not crazy. No. I'll write what I think is the highlights of something, you know, that will remind me what I need to do. Like, I'll just write tension.

别人说觉得需要更多张力。好，'张力'。这样我就知道是谁提的。

Somebody else said they think we need more tension. Alright, tension. So I'll know where it came from.

好的。那我们聊聊《阿甘正传》的开头。只有蓝天，出现一句旁白：这个故事大部分是真实的。

Alright. So let's talk about beginning of forest gum. There's nothing but blue sky. A legend appears. A lot of this is true.

我们看见一根比空气还轻的羽毛，像缓缓流逝的时间般漂浮着。你那样描写很有趣，用了很多逗号。那个句子的节奏确实与场景的节奏相匹配。我们看到它飘在城市上空。

And we see a feather lighter than air floating like time passing slowly floating by. It's interesting how you wrote that. Lots of commas. The cadence of that sentence really matches the cadence of that scene. And we see it's over a city.

一阵微风拂过，羽毛在城市上空四处飘荡。我发誓之前看过这个开场的另一个版本，明确提到了萨凡纳。可能是后来的版本。

A breeze catches it, moving it here and there above the city. Now I saw another version of this intro, I swear, that said Savannah explicitly. Maybe that was a later one.

应该是后来的版本，因为他们那时才决定拍摄地点。

Probably later because then when they decided where they're going to shoot it.

没错。因为现在这根羽毛既是电影的开端，也是电影的结尾。所以这是明确而刻意的安排。

Yeah. Because that's now the feather is the beginning of the movie, the end of the movie. So that's explicit, deliberate.

为什么是羽毛？因为我觉得你可以解读为有人刻意放置，或者只是随风飘荡。是的，这与电影主题相契合。那么它接下来会飘向哪里呢？

Why a feather? Because I think you can decide that somebody put it there or it's just floating around in a breeze. Yeah, that would that I do with the theme of the movie. Yeah. So that And where is it going to go next and all that?

不。是的，这个设计很巧妙。

No. Yeah, that was smart. I think

我也这么认为。那么怎样的开场才算出色？如果我准备写一部电影，一个好的开场应该聚焦哪些方面？

I think so. So what makes for good intros? Like if I'm sitting down, I'm ready to write a movie, like what should I be focused on in a good intro?

哦，天哪，我不确定。我觉得这取决于你如何吸引观众，就像写书一样。是什么能让人愿意翻过第二页？那些经典开场——这是最好的时代，也是最坏的时代...

Oh, gee, I don't know. I think it depends on how you want to get the audience into the same thing of writing a book. Why do you what's going to compel people to want to read past page two? You know why? You know, it's like the great ones are it's the best, you know, worst of times, the best of times.

或是'叫我以实玛利'。这些伟大开场会让你想了解更多。所以我尝试用文学化的方式，通过视觉、听觉等元素将观众带入情境，并让他们产生归属感。

You know, you say, oh, or call me Ahab. You know, all these great moments that start things that you say, gee, I want to find out more about this. And so that's what I try to do in a kind of literary way. Try to bring people into the environment, you know, sight, sound, etcetera, and have you start feeling also that you've found a home.

产生归属感。

Found a home.

是的，你想要的是在这个情境中感到舒适。这可能让你不适，但你觉得这是你愿意尝试生活两小时的地方。明白我的意思吗？或者可能是让你害怕的东西，你会说，我想看看这东西对我产生几小时的影响。

Yeah, that you want to that you feel comfortable where this is. It might be uncomfortable to you, but you feel like this is somewhere you want to try to you'd be willing to live for two hours. You know what I'm saying? Or it might be something that's frightening to you that you'll say, I want to see what this does to me for a couple of hours. Yeah.

是的，我认为在我说的‘找到归属感’这类电影中很重要——比如《阿甘正传》里你觉得舒适，发现他对你而言是亲切的，以他自己的方式充满同情。而《本杰明·巴顿奇事》本身就是一个家，那里有边界和人群，充满噪音与生活气息。我们差点就实现了这点，我觉得很美。

Yeah, I think it's important in some of these movies when I say find a home is that you feel comfortable that you're in with Forrest Gump. You know, you find that he's comfortable to you, that he's compassionate in his own way. And with Benjamin Button, actually, is a home. And they have borders and people, there's noise and life going on. We almost we almost did this, which I found was lovely.

大卫最终决定不这么做。但我们原本计划用第一版《本杰明·巴顿》的片尾字幕呈现各报纸对所有人物的讣告。他设计的样稿非常震撼，比如《皮卡尤恩时报》（新奥尔良当地报纸）或其他地方的虚构报道——比如‘被闪电击中七次身亡的男子’这类——

And David decided eventually not to do it. But we were going to end the first Benjamin Button with with the end credits were going to be supposedly obituaries from various newspapers of all the characters. It's spectacular what he had drawn up and everything, you know, from wherever they didn't. You know, the Times Picayune, I think, was a New Orleans newspaper or if they'd moved, you know, like a man killed by hit by lightning seven times, you

懂了吧？对。

know? Right.

就是这种效果。这很棒，让你感觉仿佛亲历了这些完整的人生。

That kind of thing. And it's kind of great. So you have these kind of whole lives that you feel like you've now experienced.

你在作家研讨班教学时，觉得写作者最需要领悟却往往忽视的是什么？

When you're teaching the writer's workshop, what do you feel like the writers don't get that you really need to impart on people?

我认为部分在于讲故事的能力，要鼓励读者参与其中并保持善意。比如我曾读到不喜欢的剧本，它让你感觉永远无法融入，反而在排斥你。如果能吸引人们加入其中，他们甚至不必喜欢它——当然你希望他们热爱——

I think part of it is just somebody's, I don't know, ability to just tell a story and try to encourage you to join it and be as benevolent. Mean, it's like I was thinking of a script that I didn't like one of the writers had. And I think it made you feel like you're not going to ever you're not going to be part of this, that somehow it pushes you away. And if you can get people to come in and be a party to it and, you know, they don't have to like it even in a way. I mean, you want them to love it, obviously.

你希望他们被吸引、被感动。但必须营造出我说的那种‘归属感’。

You want them to be charmed by it and moved and all those things. But you have to make it so that I think that's why I say they feel like they're home.

你看，我现在注意到这里有很多优点。

Well, here, I mean, I'm just looking at this now. You can see there's a lot of pros here.

对，这太短了。他们绝不会再允许这种情况。整个剧本多少页？哦这只是其中一页。不，我是问完整剧本的页数？

Yeah, that's too short. They would never let that happen again. How many pages is that script? Well, this is just one page. No, I'm just saying how many pages of whole script?

哦对了，我们看看。这个有260多页，标题是《樱桃修订版》。所以这可能是个合集。

Oh yeah, let's see. This is 260 something pages. It says Cherry Revision. So maybe this is a compilation

对，所以你会看到零碎片段。绝对不可能是完整剧本。266页你知道的，按一分钟一页算，60加200就是四个半小时的电影之类的。

of that. So you're going to have half scenes. There's no way in hell. Two sixty six is, you know, it's a minute a page. So 60 and the two sixties are four and a half hour movie or something.

对吧，这根本不可能。

Right. That's not happening.

不，这是个合集。

No, this is a compilation.

是素材合集，没错。

That's a compilation of stuff. Yeah.

你是怎么提升对白写作能力的？

How'd you improve your ability to write dialogue?

其实我不确定自己写得好坏。我只是写下我认为角色该说的话。而且导演们会大幅修改——对我影响最深的是《惊爆内幕》那次，我写了一段自以为很精彩的一页半独白。

Well, I don't know if I ever was good or bad at it. I mean, I just I just write what I think I want them to say. And, you know, and also the directors will change a lot of it. Or I mean, the most the most impactful one for me was on the movie The Insider. I had written like a page and a half monologue that I thought was pretty damn good.

开拍当天早上帕西诺打电话给我，他说'我用一个眼神就能搞定'。我问真的吗？他说'我们问问迈克尔（曼）吧'。

Pacino called me that morning before he's going to shoot it. He said, I can do this with one look. And I said, really? He said, let's call Michael, man. See what Michael says.

结果迈克尔说两种都拍。最后电影里只用了一个眼神。有时候我试图详尽描述，可能过度了。但演员可以据此发展出属于自己的表达方式——只要他们能传递核心意图，我倒不太执着。

And Michael said, let's shoot it both ways. And in the movies, one look. So he didn't need all the words, you know. But sometimes I'm trying to find ways to describe things and maybe I go overboard or something, you know, or maybe an actor can then take it and make it their own, make it their own way of speaking. And as long as they're able to impart what you're trying to say, I don't have any big feeling about it.

明白。你在创作对白时遵循哪些基本原则或信条？

Right. What are the things that you're thinking about, sort of the axioms, the principles as you're writing dialog?

嗯，我是说，我觉得你得撑起这场戏。你要在场景中呈现他们正在解决的问题、浪漫情节或其他内容，这样才有价值。不能只是消磨时间或他们所谓的‘无意义铺垫’，懂吗？

Well, I mean, I think you have to carry the scene. You want to present issues in the scene that they're trying to work out or they're romancing about or whatever so that it becomes. I mean, so it becomes valuable. You don't want to just kill time or what they call shoe leather, you know.

为什么这么叫？

Why is it called that?

因为这就像漫无目的地闲逛浪费时间。你得有点实质内容，不一定要是什么惊天大发现，但要推动故事发展。比如让角色突然说‘你愿意嫁给我吗？’，瞬间就能引发远超预期的戏剧张力。

Because it's just wasting time walking around, you know? Yeah, you want to have something. It doesn't have to be, you know, gigantic revelation, but you also want to have the move the story along. So, you know, like if you have a character say, will you marry me? All of a sudden you're into something that could be way larger than what you had anticipated.

你知道，

You know,

就像我正在写的这个故事——他爱上的女人是死对头的女儿，有点像罗密欧与朱丽叶。这很危险，随着他们越走越近，矛盾愈发尖锐。最后父亲会说‘我就当没你这个女儿’，甚至可能亲手杀了她。

like this thing I'm writing is the woman he's in love with is the daughter of his rival, like Romeo and Juliet in a way. And and it's dangerous, you know? So when as they get closer and closer, it becomes more fraught. And wow. And eventually the father says, you're dead to me, you know, so eventually he may even kill her, you know?

总之我希望这样会让剧情更有戏剧性。

So anyway, so it becomes just more dramatic, I hope.

你的故事总是这么简洁有力对吧？光是听描述就能浮现画面。简约是需要功力的，我觉得...

So simple, your stories, right? Like, I can just hear that and I could see it. I there's a discipline to simplicity. Think that,

是啊，某种程度上我真希望自己更擅长这个。有些人能用极简的散文和语言表达同样的内涵，遣词造句比我精炼得多。我对语言的驾驭远不如理想中纯熟。就像我对某些作家的作品感受复杂，比如乔纳森...叫什么来着？

yeah, I wish I had more of it in a way. I mean, some people can really write simply and with such sparse prose and sparse language, but says the same things with so many less words than I use, you know, I'm not sophisticated using language as I wish I was. But that's that's just some people just like, I'll say, I'm mixed about some of his works. But like Jonathan. What's his name?

萨弗兰？不，他我很熟，我们合作过《特别响，非常近》。他是个好作家。

Saffron. No, him I know quite well. We did extremely loud, incredibly close. Yeah. No, he's a good writer.

非常优秀。我其实在想写《十字路口》和《联系》的那个乔纳森...见鬼的名字想不起来了。但他的句子可能是最出色的。

Very good. I was thinking more of, you know, who wrote Crossroads and Connections, Jonathan. What the hell is his name? It's ridiculous. But he he probably writes the best sentences.

我是说，我不确定他是否花时间查词典，因为他用的词我闻所未闻，但这些词汇似乎对他而言信手拈来。乔纳森·弗兰岑。

I mean, I don't know if he spends time looking up words because he uses words I've never heard of, but they seem to come naturally to him. Jonathan Franzen.

乔纳森·弗兰岑。

Jonathan Franzen.

没错。但这对他是自然而然的事。当你读他的作品时，会忍不住赞叹，心想：天啊，这句是怎么写出来的？紧接着又来一句。这些句子简直不可思议。

Yeah. But it's natural to him. And when you read his, you sort of gush because you go, Oh my God, how do you write this sentence? And then here comes another one. You know, they're unbelievable.

要知道，写作的关键在于你必须把一个词接一个词地排列组合。你希望自己用对了词，也放对了位置。这就是能学到的最重要一课。真正擅长此道的人都很纯粹。比如海明威，或者那些...你知道的，写作对他们来说就像呼吸般自然。

You know, the big deal is with the writer is that you have to put one word in front of another. And you hope you're putting the right words in the right way. And that's the best lesson you could get. And those who are really good at it are simple. And they're Hemingway or they're, you know, you know, so some of the just those writers are just come second nature to them.

我不知道他们内心是如何涌现这些灵感的。

I don't know what makes it bubble up inside of them, you know.

那为什么修改过程会让你觉得费力呢？

And what is it about rewriting that that feels laborious to you?

因为创作新事物的冒险已经结束了。现在你只是在改进已有的内容，这当然没问题。但少了那种冒险感，感觉更像是在干活。

Well, you've had the adventure of trying to create something new. So now you're just trying to improve what you've already written, which is fine. But it doesn't feel so adventurous and it's a little more feels more like work.

你刚才说'创造新事物的冒险'这句话很能说明问题。我觉得这充分揭示了你的写作方式。

I think that's revealing that you just said the adventure of creating something new. I think that that tells me a lot about how you write.

是啊，确实如此。我这辈子都是这么活的。我有过很多孩子，不止一段婚姻，生活充满冒险。有时候我的行为也不够检点。

Yeah, I think it's true. I think I've lived my life that way. Yeah, I've had a lot of children. I've had more than one wife and things and and I think a great adventure. And sometimes I haven't behaved the way I should have.

我从经历中学到教训，却又决定不吸取教训，诸如此类。但写作也是如此——试图创造让人惊叹的作品。人们可能会说这太宏大、太昂贵、有各种问题，但绝不会说它无趣或不是个好故事。

And I've learned what I've learned and decided not to take lessons from what I've learned and all that, you know. But that's what's writing to, in other words, trying to create something that will people say, wow, you know, this is really it might be too big, might be too expensive, might be all sorts of things, but they'll never say they're not interesting or a good story.

我不知道为什么。可能是因为我们在圣胡安尼科。我脑海中浮现的画面是有人正在冲巨浪，你有点像，

I don't know why. Had the maybe it's because we're in San Juanico. I just had the image of someone who's just, like, surfing a giant wave, you're kinda like,

我不知道。我要走了。

I don't know. I'm gonna go.

然后你有点像，重新浮上来，就一直在这波浪上，你就像，我们要一直待在这波浪上，我知道只要我能保持不落水，整个事情就会继续。但你称之为尝试新事物的冒险，我觉得这充分说明了你的目标和那种展开的过程。不过你也确实知道目的地是什么，因为你一开始就有那个最终目标。

And you kinda, like, come back up, and you're just on this wave, the entire time, you're like, we're just gonna stay on this wave, and I know that if I can stay up, the whole thing's gonna go. But the fact that you're calling it the adventure of trying to figure out something new, I think, just says so much about what it is that you're going for and the kind of unfolding. But then you do also know what your destination is because you start with that end mind.

嗯，是的，但我也得到了帮助，因为如我所说，我做了很多改编。我知道素材是什么，除非我在创作新东西。我是说，我觉得我写的很多东西在某种程度上都是严格的改编，即使我以很大的方式玩弄它们。或者它们几乎都是原创作品。比如《本杰明·巴顿奇事》只是斯科特·谢尔佐为《科利尔杂志》写的一个糟糕的短篇小说，他需要一些钱。

Well, yeah, but also I'm helped along by since, as I said, I do a lot of adaptations. I know what the material is to unless I'm creating something. I mean, I think a lot of the things I've written are strict adaptations to some extent, even I play with them in major ways. Or they're almost all original writing. Like Benjamin Button was just a bad short story that Scott Scherzo wrote for for he needed some money for Colliers Magazine.

但显然不是我想到的是一个人逆生长的想法，这很深刻，你知道。真的吗？是的，很深刻。我自己写作中最接近这个的是我让别人写了，我们看看它会不会被拍出来。但我大约十年前让别人写了一个故事，我醒来后对我妻子说，我有个想法，我说，如果我死了怎么办？

And but what it was obviously I didn't come up with is the idea of a so on aging backwards, which is profound, you know. Really? Yeah, it's profound. The closest I came to that in my own writing was I had someone else write it, and we'll see if it ever gets made. But I had someone write about ten, fifteen years ago, so I woke up and I said to my wife, I had this idea, I said, What if what if I died?

你醒来发现我死了，而你碰巧喜欢我，你在悲伤中，和一个牧师或拉比或能给你安慰的人在一起。你说出来，他或她对你说，我能做些什么让你的悲伤感觉好一点？她说，我只想再和他度过一天。所以我让人写了一个关于24小时的故事，这个死去的人突然复活了，他们有24小时的生命。他们的关系如何，他们解决了什么，他们得到了什么？

You woke up and you found I'm dead and you happen to like me and you're grieving and you are with a priest or a rabbi or somebody who could give you some consolation. And you say it and he says to you or she says to you, what could I do to make your grief feel easier to you? And she says, I would like to spend just one more day with him. So I had a thing written about a twenty four hour that where it comes true that this guy who was dead all of a sudden came back to life and they had twenty four hours left to live. And what was their relationship and what did they get to solve and what did they get to?

这很棒。很美。是的，真的很美。随着时间压缩，你知道，在最后一小时，她知道他不知道，她想在那些时刻完成的事情，很美。我不认为它像逆生长那样深刻，但其中有一些我觉得很感人的东西。

It's pretty great. That's beautiful. Yeah, it's really beautiful. And as the time compressed, you know, as you in your last hour and she knows that he doesn't know it and, you know, things that she wants to accomplish in those moments, it's pretty beautiful. I don't think it's as profound as aging backwards, but there's something to it that I think was quite touching.

《阿甘正传》的埃里克·罗斯。

Eric Roth from Forrest Gump.

你知道，

You know,

当你赢得你的

when you won your

奥斯卡在最后说，我可能不是最聪明的人

Oscar at the very end, you say, I may not be the smartest man

但我懂得什么是爱。我确实懂。谢谢你。

around, but I know what love is. I sure do. Thank you.

而阿甘正传说，我不是个聪明人，但我知道什么是爱

And Forrest Gump says, I'm not a smart man, but I know what love

是的，我那样做是因为那句话。我确实明白。我知道对我来说爱是什么。

is. Yeah, well, was I did that because of that. And I do. I did know it. I do know what love is for me.

就像我说的，我有许多孩子，所以当他们爱我而我也爱他们时我能感受到。我生命中有许许多多的人。所以我尽可能被爱包围着。是的，他的表达方式很不同，因为他说自己不聪明，但他懂得爱。

I mean, as I say, I have a lot of children, so I know that when they love me and I love them. And I have many, many, many people in my life. So I'm surrounded by love as best as possible. So, yeah, he was saying it quite differently because he's saying that he's not intelligent, but that he knows.

我认为这正是我们在你很多电影中看到的那种爱的感觉。比如《特别响，非常近》，失去父亲的痛苦。天啊。那种刻骨的悲伤与分离感，让人真切体会到那种痛楚。你的电影有种特别的...

I mean, think that's that's that's that's what we see in in a lot of your movies is is is that feeling of love. I mean, to go to extremely loud and incredibly close, you know, it's losing your father. Oh my goodness. You know, it's like a sense of just like Aching grief and separation and really feel the pain of that. There's something about the way that your movies.

你知道，我记得是埃尔维斯·米切尔说的。不认识吗？他曾是《纽约时报》影评人，后来为NPR做电台访谈，采访很多电影界人士。

Well, you know, I was I think it was Elvis Mitchell. You know that? No. He was he was a New York Times film critic, and then he's been a. He does like he does for NPR, his radio interviews with a lot of entertaining film people.

他是我的朋友，他说我的电影都在讲述孤独。我觉得没错。想想我们作为人的本质...我不确定自己是否那么孤独，但我不喜欢独处，我不太擅长这个。

And he when I and he's a friend and he said, Your movies are all about loneliness. Yeah. And I think it's true. What about when you really think about us as people being and, you know, I'm not sure I'm that lonely, but I don't like being alone. I'm not great with that.

但孤独可能是种驱动力。或许正是我笔下角色的驱动力。

But the loneliness is probably a driving force. So it might be a driving force for my characters.

奇妙的是，当我上周重看完《重启人生》后，我为生活中许久未哭过的事情痛哭流涕。我甚至向上帝呼喊。

What was wild is after I finished the rewatch button and after I finished it last week, I wept about things in my own life like I hadn't wept in so long. I mean, I cried out to God.

我太喜欢了。

I love that.

就在刚才，我躺在床上，真的，我几乎得去洗那个该死的枕头套，因为你让我感受到了那些关于孤独、悲伤以及生命中空虚感的痛苦。那部电影不知怎的就触动了这些，然后我就哭了，哭得特别厉害，就像...

Just it fully I was on my bed and I mean, I practically had to wash the dang the dang pillow case because I just you made me feel certain pains that I've had around loneliness and and and sadness and feelings of just emptiness in my life. And I just something about that movie just brought it up, and I just I I just wept. I I wept so, like, you

你在哭，这是一种宣泄吗？

know, you're crying Was it was it cathartic?

你不明白，关键就在这儿，当你痛哭流涕、完全失控的时候。哭完之后感觉真的很好，流泪本身就是一种宣泄。知道奇怪的是什么吗？那样大哭一场感觉特别好，因为没有抗拒。是的，毫无抗拒。

You're not in well, that's the thing, you know, when you're just weeping and you're just like you're completely out of yourself. Afterwards, it is really nice, and there's something about the shedding of tears is a kind of catharsis. You know what's strange? It feels really good to cry that much because there's no resistance. Yes, there's no resistance.

是啊。一旦你能那样哭出来，我觉得很重要。哇，真是...哇。我很高兴它对你产生了这样的

Yeah. Once you can do that, it's important, I think, you know. Oh, wow. Wow. Well, I'm glad that it affected you that

影响。是的。

way. Yeah.

我喜欢

I love

这样。神奇的是，先是电影影响了我，然后它又引导我看到了自己生活中的

that. Well, what's wild is that first the movie affected me and then it influenced it. Show me something about my own

某些东西。是啊，这很棒。嗯，那也许其中有些真理。可能我触及到了真相。

life. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah. Well, then maybe there's some truth to it. Maybe I hit on the truth.

我不知道。但这对你来说不是真理。肯定会有其他人觉得这很荒谬，你懂吧？

I don't know. But he's not a truth to you anyway. I'm sure there's other people say it's ridiculous, you know?