如何与人交谈：如何进行闲聊

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好的。那我们就坐

Okay. So we'll sit

这里。好的。

here. Okay.

我们就坐这儿。像往常一样开始，聊聊你想做什么

We'll sit here. We'll start like usual and talk about what you want to do

用你的手。对。是的。我确实需要

with your hand. Right. Yeah. Like I do need to

因为他正在理发。是啊。

because he's getting a haircut. Yeah.

这一刻让你觉得尴尬吗？

Does this moment feel awkward to you?

它没有。所以我不知道是否应该。好消息。好消息。是的。

It doesn't. So I don't know if it should. Great news. Great news. Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

如果我在五分钟的对话中，我会想，我接下来要说什么？我是不是已经聊过天气了？然后我就会真的感到恐慌。

If I'm in a five minute conversation, I am like, what am I gonna say next? What am like, what's the next thing that I should did I already talk about the weather? Did I and I get real panic.

不。我觉得我可以和任何人聊上五分钟，对吧？但如果中途没话说了，那就是我的恐惧，因为我们被困在这里了。是的。

No. I feel like I can chat with anybody for, five minutes. Right? And then if I run out of things to say in the middle, that's my fear because we are trapped here. Yes.

在这次理发期间。我不能就这样说，很高兴见到你，我得走了，而你正抓着我的头发。

For the duration of this haircut. I can't just do it like, well, was so great to see you. Gotta run while you're holding my hair.

是的。我们可以停止交谈，我会试着营造一种舒适放松的氛围。

Yeah. We could stop talking and I will try to put out like a comfortable chill vibe.

你知道，这很常见。有人可能会说，哦，这里的氛围真好。而对我来说，完全不明白他们是如何在几秒钟内察觉到那种氛围的。

It's, you know, pretty common. Someone might say something like, oh, there's a really good vibe here. And to me, that is totally bewildering how they discern that vibe within a few seconds.

你好，我是朱莉·贝克，《大西洋月刊》的高级编辑。

Hi. I'm Julie Beck, a senior editor at The Atlantic.

我是丽贝卡·拉希德，《How To》系列的制作人。这里是《如何与人交谈》。

And I'm Rebecca Rashid, producer of the How To Series. This is How To Talk To People.

在《大西洋月刊》，我负责家庭版块，同时多年来也一直在报道关于友谊的内容。因此我经常思考人际关系和社群问题，确实常看到人们难以建立他们真正渴望的亲密关系。我认为其中一个障碍就是令人畏惧的寒暄闲聊。

Here at the Atlantic, I oversee the family section, and I've also been reporting on friendship for many years now. So I think a lot about relationships and community, and I do see often that people struggle to form the close relationships that they really want. And I think one of the barriers to that is the dreaded small talk.

所以在首期节目里，我们必须弄清楚：人们究竟该如何进行闲聊？到底该怎么聊？是什么阻碍了我们通过闲谈建立关系？为什么我们总忍不住低头看手机逃避对话，或在派对上躲在角落只和熟人说话？要研究这个问题，还有什么地方比向美发沙龙里的闲聊高手取经更合适呢？

So I think in this first episode, we have to figure out how does one even make small talk? How indeed? And what holds us back from the chitchat, from the conversations that help us build relationships? And what explains that tendency so many of us have to look down at our phones and avoid conversation or hide in the corner at a party and only talk to the people we know? So where better to do some research on this than to talk to the ultimate small talk experts at the hair salon?

嗨。嗨。嗨。见到你真好。我

Hi. Hi. Hi. Good to see you. I

感觉...好吧，我最主要的问题是...当我坐在这张椅子上时...你真的想和我聊天吗？哦当然。你可以说实话。

feel like, okay, the main thing that I need to ask you Okay. Is when I'm sitting in this chair Okay. Do you even want to talk to me? Oh, yeah. I You can be honest.

不会伤害我的感情。想聊就聊

It wouldn't hurt my feelings. Want to talk

我得在这儿待一整天。没错。所以我确实需要些娱乐。

I have to be here all day. Right. So I do need some entertainment.

好吧。

Okay.

我不能... 我是说我喜欢和人聊天。我喜欢听劲爆八卦。好吧。对。典型的美发师场景。

I can't like, I so I like talking to people. I like getting the hot goss. Okay. Yeah. Classic hairdresser situation.

虽然感觉有点不礼貌，但我也想过，要是我全程玩手机，你是不是反而会松口气，这样你就不用一直保持社交状态了。懂我意思吗？

I mean, it feels rude, but in my mind, I've also wondered, like, would you actually be relieved if I was just on my phone the whole time and then you could have a break from, like, being on all the time. You know?

我完全没问题。如果你想玩手机，我确实会这么想。好的。太好了。我就能休息会儿。

That is totally fine with me. Like, if you wanna be on your phone, I do think of it that way. Okay. Great. I'll have a break.

我可以想想自己的事情，整理下思绪。嗯。你能来我就很开心了。大多数美发师都准备好整天聊天的。我

I'll just, like, think about my own things that are going on, organize my brain. Mhmm. I'm just glad that you're here. Most hairdressers are very much prepared to talk all day. I

觉得。我也不知道。

think. I don't know.

不觉得吗？朱莉，我无法停止回想我们在华盛顿特区的森氏沙龙与艾琳·德罗萨和咪咪·克拉夫特共度的欢乐时光。

No? Don't Julie, I can't stop thinking about how much fun we had with Erin DeRosa and Mimi Kraft at Sen's Salon in Washington DC.

是啊。我是说，她们是真正为我做发型的人，能窥见她们全程在想些什么，这本身就很有趣。

Yeah. I mean, they are the women who actually do my hair, and it was very fun to get, like, a peek behind the scenes of what they're thinking the whole time.

三个小时里都在弄头发。对，对。我们差不多就是这样的状态。

Hair over the course of three hours. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of where we're at.

我觉得如果你想聊天那很棒，有来有往的对话确实既有趣又让人愉快。但如果你不想说话就别勉强，因为那样对话会变得很吃力，还得费劲填补沉默什么的。我对沉默很自在，专注于自己的事就好，别人也自便。

I feel like if you wanna talk, that's amazing. It is really entertaining and fun to have conversation and to have, like, good conversation. But if you don't wanna talk, don't try to talk because then it's, like, really hard to have a conversation. And then it's even more work to keep it going and try to fill the silence or whatever. And I'm very comfortable with silence and very comfortable just doing my thing and you know, someone else doing their thing.

但如果你想交谈，我也随时欢迎。

But if you do wanna have a conversation, that's also always welcome.

我很好奇，闲聊究竟哪一点让你如此紧张？

I'm curious. What is it about small talk that makes you so nervous?

我不...好吧。澄清一下，并非总是让我紧张。我觉得有趣的是，你无法避开它。任何关系的建立都始于对话，而开场总是那些安全话题、寒暄客套之类的内容。

I don't okay. To clarify, I don't know that it makes me nervous all the time. I think what's interesting about it is it's like, you can't really get around it. Any relationship that you're gonna have, like, has to start with a conversation. And you usually start with, like, the safe topics, the small talk, the this, the that.

所以这更像是一种情境：我被困在火车上，和一个不太熟的熟人在一起，我们有二十分钟要打发，而我只有五分钟的话题。如果是在理发店或任何你被迫与熟人、陌生人长时间相处的地方

So it's more a situation where I am trapped on the train with an acquaintance I don't know that well, and we have twenty minutes to fill, and I got five minutes of material. If I'm getting my haircut or anywhere where you're just trapped with either an acquaintance or a stranger for a long time

把发型往上拉

Pulling the shape up a

一点点。

little bit.

对。你喜欢层次长一点。最长的那种。但还是希望保持足够的

Yeah. You like the layers longer. Longest. But you still like to have enough

然后

And

你得琢磨，比如，我们要聊多少？聊什么？他们是不是更希望我别打扰，但我们都太礼貌说不出口？我经常为此纠结，有时在接受服务时很难放松下来。

you have to kind of navigate, like, how much are we gonna talk to each other? What are we gonna talk about? Would they rather I just left them alone, but we're both too polite to say so? I do get in my head a lot about that, and I find it very hard to relax sometimes if I am receiving a service.

我不知道

I don't know

而且，如果我表现得正常一点，放松并享受当下，可能会让他们感觉更自在。大概是我现在散发的气场不太对。

And, like, probably if I was just normal and, like, relaxed and enjoyed the situation, it would make them more comfortable. Like, I'm probably putting off a vibe.

当双方关系没有任何明确界定时，情况会特别棘手。仅仅和某人交谈并不意味着你们正在发展为朋友关系。

It can be extra challenging when the terms of that relationship are not really established in any way. Like, just having a conversation with that person doesn't necessarily mean you're moving towards friendship.

没错。就像生活中那些与你有关联，但关系基本不会更进一步的人。可你又不得不与他们保持定期互动，这种情况下该怎么处理？

Yeah. You're right. Like, the kind of people that are in your life, but that relationship is not necessarily gonna grow from what it already is. But you still need to interact with them and perhaps semi regularly. And just like, how do you approach that?

比如每天见面的咖啡师。她知道你永远点香草冰拿铁，你也知道她清楚这一点。但每次你还是会完整地重新点单？

Like, the barista you see every day. And you know that she knows that you always get the iced vanilla latte. And she knows that you know that she knows. Yeah. But you still just like order it freshly every time?

对。你们从不点破这层默契？你们俩都自认为是外向性格吗？

Yes. Yes. And you don't ever acknowledge anything? Do you both consider yourself extroverts?

不。哦不。不是。绝对不是。

No. Oh. No. No. No.

坚决不是。完全不是。

Hard no. Extreme no.

那么，你是怎么做到每天坐在这里闲聊一整天的？这不会让你精疲力尽吗？

Well, then how do you sit here and make small talk all day every day? Does it exhaust you?

我曾听说内向者更喜欢一对一的深度对话，而外向者则更适应典型的闲聊。我对闲聊没兴趣，只想立刻进入实质性话题。老实说，我基本上永远不想参加派对，或是置身于需要和很多人闲聊的人群中，因为那让我筋疲力尽。但我喜欢并且擅长与人建立深层联系，进行一对一的深度交流。

I once heard that introverts like to have, like, one on one deeper conversations, whereas extroverts are more comfortable with, like, typical small talk. I am not interested in small talk. I want to get right into the real talk immediately. And I definitely don't wanna go to, like, a party, honestly, basically ever, or be in a crowd where I have to like make small talk with a lot of people because that is exhausting to me. But having like deep connections and one on one like deeper conversations with people is I like that and I'm good at it.

那你如何定义闲聊？对我来说，闲聊就像是'外面真冷啊''是啊，真冷''你喜欢冷天吗'这样的对话。

Well, how do you define small talk then? For me, small talk is like, oh, it's cold out. Yeah. It's cold out. Oh, do you like cold?

不。哦，我也是。这种对话真的很无聊。'你周末过得怎么样？'

No. Oh, yeah. Me too. And that's, like, really boring. Oh, are you how was your weekend?

'挺好的''哦，酷'——而我想知道具体发生了什么。

Good. Oh, cool. I wanna know what happened.

那你会直接对客户抛出尖锐问题吗？比如'你相信上帝吗？'懂我意思吗？这算是比较温和的...

Well, are you coming in hot with your clients? Like, do you believe in god? You know what I mean? Like, it is, like, lighter Yeah.

有时候我会单刀直入。比如当我说'周末过得如何？''很棒'时，我会追问'发生了什么特别的事吗？'通常我会问'有没有发生什么疯狂的事？'

I mean, sometimes I'm coming in hot. Sometimes, like If I'm like, oh, how was your weekend? Great. I will be like, did you did what happened? Did anything I will usually say like, did anything crazy happen?

发生了什么疯狂的事吗？有人进医院了吗？我想直接切入重点。如果有人参加派对，周六早上进来时你就能看出来他们昨晚在派对狂欢。你真的会好奇，昨晚到底发生了什么？

Did anything crazy happen? Did anybody go to the hospital? Like I I wanna get straight into it. If somebody was like at a party, you can tell when somebody comes in on a Saturday morning and they were at a party, you know, the night before. And you really are like, what happened last night?

到底出了什么状况？我确实喜欢直接了解细节。

What went down? I do like getting straight into the details.

我想我也会这么说，我不会一上来就问'你发型不错啊？你信上帝吗？'更像是这些问题会在对话中自然出现。比如聊到他们的家庭或父母时，就会顺势问'你小时候是怎么被抚养的？'

I guess I'll also say like, I don't come in, Hey, how's your hair? Do you believe in God? It's more like it's more like somehow it'll come up somewhere in the conversation. You know, you'll be talking about their family or like their parents or whatever. And then it's like, Oh, how were you raised?

你有宗教背景吗？话题就这样展开。然后我才会问'那你相信上帝吗？'

Were you raised religiously? It sort of evolves. And then I will say, Well, do you believe in God?

这是真实发生过的例子。

So that's a real example that has happened.

噢，当然，绝对是。但我很喜欢和人们进行这样的对话。这份工作最让我着迷的一点就是能进行这种真实的交流。

Oh, yeah, for sure. For sure. But I like to have conversation like that with people. And that's like one of my favorite things about this job is having real conversations like that.

她总能从别人嘴里套出最多的猛料，因为

She gets the very most dirt out of people because

喜欢一个好故事。

Love a good story.

她天生充满好奇心，即使对方本不打算透露细节，她也能巧妙引导出来。我也会这样。正是因为她那份真诚的好奇心。

She is so genuinely curious that even if somebody maybe was not going into a conversation thinking they were going to reveal a detail, she will get it out of them. I will. Because of her genuine curiosity.

我也会。没错。很多人对自己处境有种自欺欺人的状态。因为我们听过太多相似故事，就会直接指出：不，这才是事实真相。

I will. Yeah. It's like a lot of people are sort of in denial about what is happening in their situation. Because we've heard so many stories that are similar and we are like, no, like, this is what's really happening.

我们会说：姑娘，不是这样的。对，这才是真实情况。结果往往发现，可能下一个就轮到她们，或者后续果然如此。

And we're like, girl, no. Yeah. Well, this is what's happening. This is what's happening. And then, like, come to find out, like, maybe they're next or there was it after that.

他们最终承认：确实是这样。优质闲聊的价值就在于，你能从他人经历中学习。这些事会不断重演，太阳底下无新事。所以当有人带着类似情况出现时，你立刻就能看透本质。

They're like, that is what's happening. Because we that is the value in good small talk and conversation is that you learn from other people's experiences. And so then those things everything repeats itself. Like nothing's really a new thing. So somebody comes in and you're like, know what's happening there.

我觉得闲聊常被诟病。但即便略显乏味，它仍有其作用。那些人们总爱吐槽的中性话题——比如'天气如何？''外面真热啊'——其实能润滑人际交往，提供安全的互动起点。

I think small talk gets a lot of hate. But even if it's a little boring, it serves a purpose. So those, like, basic neutral topics that people love to hate on, like how's the weather? Like, sure is a hot one out there. Like, those serve a purpose of being something neutral that can smooth the path of our interactions.

但作为制作人，我有时会直奔主题，提问方式不够委婉。我本意并非冒犯，只是想用自己擅长的方式建立连接，或是通过适度私人化的问题来拉近距离。

But I think sometimes my producer brain that wants to cut to the story, and I'm not always as delicate in the way I phrase my questions. And my intent is not to be offensive, but maybe just to connect with the person in the way I know best or maybe be respectfully personal and try to bridge that gap.

所以你对闲聊的方式是，尽可能快地切入个人话题。

So you your approach to small talk then is to, like, try to get personal as quickly as possible.

倒不至于让人不适，但我确实很抗拒每天见面时重复讨论天气。就像，我们得让对话继续深入。既然彼此认识，对双方背景也有基本了解。

Not uncomfortably so, but I do struggle with the repeated how's the weather with someone I see every day. It's like, let's let's move this conversation along. We've seen each other. We have some basic context of who each other is.

我觉得自己很擅长那种浅层次的交流。就像《宋飞正传》里那种观察式喜剧，围绕身边发生的事情发表评论，和你简单互动后就能礼貌结束对话。一旦转向更私人的话题，我就会觉得有些磕磕绊绊。和Erin与Mimi的对话中，其实并没有人们害怕的那种尴尬的肤浅寒暄。

I feel like I thrive on that surface level. Just the sort of Seinfeldian, like observational comedy of like, these are things that are happening around us that, like, I can remark upon and do a little bit with you and then, like, tip my hat and walk away. Once we transition to something that is a little more personal, that is where I feel like a little bumpy. In our conversation with Erin and Mimi, it really wasn't that awkward surface level kind of small talk that I think people fear.

没错。而且她们似乎很自然地察觉到人们不同的舒适度，知道哪些故事适合分享。她们懂得审时度势，把握对话氛围。毕竟她们是专业人士，每天都在做这件事。

Right. And it seems like they were really naturally cognizant of people's different comfort levels and what would be an appropriate story to share. And they were sort of able to read the room and read the space of the conversation. And, you know, they're experts at this. They do this every day.

是的，审时度势确实是项技能。对于我们这些没那么熟练的人，我想更深入了解：是什么让看似无害的对话突然变得尴尬？当这种情况发生时该如何应对？以及我们该如何突破自我设限，轻松交谈。

Yeah. Reading the room is a skill for sure. And I think for those of us who aren't quite so practiced as they are, I wanted to understand more so what can cause a seemingly innocuous conversation to take a turn for the awkward and how we navigate it when that happens and what just the barriers are to getting out of our own heads and just chatting.

泰·俊郎是研究尴尬现象的社会科学家，他在《我们为何社交尴尬及其美妙之处》一书中探讨了许多美国成年人特有的社交行为趋势。他帮助人们思考如何在社交场合中更自信些——或许也能帮我用不那么尴尬的方式介绍这段内容。

Tai Toshiro is a social scientist who writes about awkwardness and his book called The Science of Why We're Socially Awkward and Why That's Awesome explores a lot of these social and behavioral trends specific to adults in The United States. And he helps people think through how to be in social spaces and feel just a bit more confident. He could also probably help me share this intro in a slightly less awkward way.

研究尴尬的妙处在于每个人都经历过尴尬时刻。比如你做演讲时拉链没拉，这非常尴尬难堪，但其实没什么大不了。这只是对微小社交预期的轻微偏离。如果你第一次约会时牙缝有菠菜叶，情况也一样。

Of the great things about studying awkwardness is that everybody has had an awkward moment. Let's say, for example, you're giving a presentation and you have an undone zipper. That's super awkward, super embarrassing, but it's actually not that big of a deal. It's just a uncomfortable deviation from actually a small social expectation. If you had spinach in your teeth during a first date, same thing.

这其实是一种非常微小的社交期待，但我们却对它产生了极其强烈的情感反应。我的一些密友搬到了新城市，我去拜访他们时，我们会参加派对或去酒吧之类的地方。其中有些朋友比较笨拙。我看着他们在社交场合中结识新朋友，那场景令人心碎——因为他们会展现出平常那种笨拙的样子。你能明显看到其他人逐渐失去兴趣，找借口说‘我得再去拿杯酒’之类的话。

It's actually really small kind of social expectation, but we have this really powerful emotional reaction to it. Some of my close friends had moved to new cities, and I would go visit them and we'd go out to parties or might go to a bar or something. And some of these friends were awkward. And, you know, I'd watch them in these social interactions meeting new people, and it was just heartbreaking because they they would be their regular awkward self. And you could see the other folks losing interest and saying, I gotta go get another drink or something.

是啊，就是那种毫无理由的、令人沮丧的自我开脱。我暗自思忖，这对想要在新城市结交朋友的我朋友来说太残酷了。同时我也为对方感到遗憾——眼前这个笨拙的人其实品格高尚、非常有趣，对我而言是极好的朋友，但他们仅凭三四分钟的闲聊就排除了未来所有社交可能。于是我产生了一个想法：如果笨拙的人能跳过社交互动的前五分钟，他们其实会表现得很好。

And yeah. Just that sad sort of excusing themselves for no good reason. And I thought to myself, like, well, this is heartbreaking for my friend who's trying to make new acquaintances or new friends in the city. My thought's also too bad for the other person because here's this awkward person who has tremendous moral character, who's super interesting, who's been an amazing friend to me, but they ruled out any chance of future social interaction based on, you know, three or four minutes of kinda chitchat. And so I had this thought, like, if the awkward person could skip the first five minutes of a social interaction, I actually think they'd be alright.

你朋友具体做了什么让人想离开去拿酒？到底哪里显得这么尴尬？

What exactly was it that your friend was doing that made people wanna leave and go get another drink? What was so awkward about it?

这位朋友现在依然是个‘空间入侵者’。在美国，通常与人保持的距离大约是18英寸（约45厘米）。

This friend was is still a space invader. So in The US, the typical amount of space you give someone is about 18 inches.

哦，我还以为你说的是那个电子游戏。

Oh, I thought you meant, like, the video game.

好吧，不是的。对，不是那个。

Okay. Oh, no. Yeah. No. Yeah.

不是那种老式游戏，但他确实会入侵他人空间——他大概只保持10英寸（约25厘米）距离，这实在太近了，让人不适。他还有声音调节的问题（这在笨拙的人身上很常见），说话音量略大，可能超出他人的舒适范围。不过退一步想，我觉得这又有什么关系呢？

Not that old school, but he's a space invader. So he he's probably about ten inches, which is way too close, and that makes people feel uncomfortable. He also has trouble with voice modulation, which can certainly happen with awkward people. Speaks a little bit too loud, probably for other people's comfort. But, you know, I I guess when you take a step back from it, my thought is, you know, who who cares?

比如，如果你能熬过最初那些笨拙的小时刻，你会发现这个人其实非常美好。所以我想知道，是否有些方法能让笨拙的人更顺畅地度过那些尴尬时刻？另一方面，对于那些不笨拙的人，他们能否对笨拙者的处境多些同理心？

Like, if you can get past those little clumsy moments at the start, you find this, you know, really wonderful person. So I, you know, I just wanted to see, like, are there ways that the awkward person can navigate those awkward moments a little bit more smoothly? But on the other hand, for people who aren't awkward, can they have a little more empathy for the awkward person's situation?

你在书中写道，有些人比其他人更容易陷入尴尬。你认为自己属于哪一类？

So in your book, you write that some people are more prone to awkwardness than others. Where do you think you fall?

天啊，我相当笨拙。小时候我就非常不擅社交。成年后，大多数场合我能假装社交自如，但偶尔还是会原形毕露。

Oh, boy. I'm pretty awkward. So when I was a kid, I was I was very awkward. And I think in adulthood, I can pass for socially fluent in most situations, but I I certainly still have my moments.

没错，你现在表现得很好。那么我想了解，当你参加只认识一两个人的派对时，你脑海里会经历怎样的心理活动？当时的应对策略是什么？

Yeah. You're doing great. You're doing great. So with that in mind, I'm curious, can you just walk me through what goes through your mind when you say enter a party where you only know one or two people? Like, what is the strategy that runs through your mind at that time?

在社交活动开始前，我确实会感到焦虑。对笨拙者而言，这种焦虑并非毫无道理。我会过度考虑细节：穿什么、带什么伴手礼、几点到场。进场前我会进行自我对话，我称之为心理备战。

So, you know, before the social event occurs, I I do get some social anxiety. I think maybe the difference for someone who's awkward is these feelings of anxiety aren't irrational. So I'll give more thought to small details, like what am I gonna wear, what would be appropriate thing to to bring, what time am I gonna get there. So I just have a little self talk before I go into these situations. I call it my mental preparation.

我会告诉自己：听着，你不认识任何人，紧张很正常。以前你也经历过这种场合，你能应付的——但我需要表现得比本能更主动些。而真正到场时，有趣的事情就发生了。

And I'll just say, hey, you're you don't know anybody. You're nervous about that. And and that's okay. You've been in these situations before and and you can do it, but I need to have a more assertive attitude than would be natural for me. When I get there, there's kind of this funny thing that happens.

假设我和朋友走进派对，现场气氛正酣。这时常会有人说'这里的氛围真不错'之类的话。

So let's say I go with with a friend and we walk into the party and it's in full swing. It's, you know, pretty common. Someone might say something like, oh, there's a really good vibe here.

这里的氛围真的很棒。

There's a really good vibe in here.

对我来说，他们如何在几秒钟内就辨别出这种氛围完全令人困惑。所以，不擅长社交的人进入社交场合时，并不会立即全面评估情况。相反，他们是在观察零散的信息，然后像拼图一样拼凑起来，试图理解当前的情境以及自己该如何表现。因此，我需要更长时间来‘读懂房间’，然后才能感到足够自在，顺利融入并与人互动。而当我真正参与时，实际上我只是尽量保持诚实。

And to me, that is totally bewildering how they discern that vibe within a few seconds. So awkward people, when they enter a social situation, they're not all at once kind of evaluating what's going on. Instead, what they're doing is they're looking at individual pieces of information and then kind of putting it together almost like a puzzle to figure out what the situation is like and how they should behave. So it takes longer for me to read the room, I guess, and then feel comfortable enough to get in there and interact smoothly with other people. And then when I get into it, I I just try to be honest, actually.

所以，如果你遇到那种尴尬情况——比如你和某人聊完后对方转向其他事情，而你独自站在那里——我会主动接近一群人，说：‘嘿，我是泰，我是新来的。介意我加入吗？’这对某些人来说可能有点吓人，但我发现人们通常都很乐意接受。

And so I would approach people if you had the uncomfortable situation where you've talked to somebody and they've moved on to something else and you're standing there by yourself, you know, I'll just approach a a group and I'll say, hey. I'm I'm Ty. I'm new here. Do you mind if I join you? And that might sound a little daunting to some folks, but I always find that people are really receptive to that.

也许需要一点勇气才能说出这样的话，而我认为人们会欣赏这种直率。

It took a little bit of boldness maybe to say something like that, and I think people appreciate that.

那么，为什么人们在一个小期望被打破的尴尬时刻会感到不自在？这和社交焦虑是同样的感受，还是一种独特的情绪？

So why do people feel awkward in that awkward moment where they've broken one minor expectation? Is it the same thing as social anxiety, or is it a unique feeling?

是的。社交焦虑更像是一种前瞻性的情绪。当我们感到社交焦虑时，核心在于我们有一种非理性的恐惧，担心自己会在社交场合搞砸或出丑。而尴尬感则更偏向当下即时的感受，甚至伴随生理反应如心跳加速、肌肉紧绷——当然，最典型的标志可能就是脸红。

Yeah. So social anxiety is more of a forward looking kind of emotion. So when we feel social anxiety, the core of that is we have some irrational fear that we're gonna mess up or we're gonna make a fool of ourselves in a social situation. With awkwardness, it's more of this just in the moment, very present kind of feeling, and it even comes along with things like a racing heart or your muscles might tense. Course, one of the hallmarks is that you might you might blush.

对吧？人们通常对此感到糟糕，认为脸红让尴尬时刻雪上加霜。但实际上，脸红传递了一个信号：嘿，我刚刚做了件尴尬的事。

Right? And people usually feel horrible about that. They think I've just made this awkward moment worse by by blushing. So blushing actually sends a signal, hey. I just did something awkward.

对此我感到很抱歉，脸都红了。我这是在向你传递一种社交信号。实际上人们非常欣赏这种坦诚。所以尴尬时刻并非世界上最糟糕的事，要知道，它们几乎总是可以挽回的。事实上，对刚刚发生的尴尬时刻保持诚实，反而有助于与他人建立信任。

I feel bad about that, and I'm blushing. I'm sending you this social signal. And people actually really appreciate that. So awkward moments aren't the worst thing in in the world, but, you know, they can be recovered from almost all the time. And, actually, just being honest about the awkward moment that just took place can actually be beneficial for building some trust with another person.

那么你认为自己随着时间推移变得更擅长社交了，还是说只是学会了应对策略？

So do you think that you've gotten more comfortable with socializing over time, or do you just feel like you've learned strategies?

我认为首先是掌握了策略，然后才逐渐获得社交上的自如。让我举个童年时期的简单例子，说说我曾不得不学习的一些策略。

I I think it's to have learned strategies first, and then the social comfort came after that. So let me give you a quick example maybe from childhood about some of these strategies I had to learn.

请讲。

Sure.

以前我们去温迪快餐店买汉堡时，父母会停好车后转身对我说：'泰，现在开始心理准备。'我会点头表示明白，因为我完全清楚这意味着什么。这其实是种苏格拉底式的对话，他们会问我一系列问题，帮助我为社交场合的预期做准备，同时也让我思考需要调整哪些社交行为来妥善应对。比如他们会问：'我们现在在哪里？'

So when we would go to Wendy's to get a hamburger. My parents would park the car and they would turn around and they say, Ty, it's time to mentally prepare. And I would shake my head yes because I knew exactly what this meant. And what it was was this kind of Socratic dialogue where they would ask me a series of questions, and it would help me prepare for what the expectations would be in the social situation and also help me think about what I need to do with my social behaviors to handle it well appropriately. So they say things like, well, where where are we?

我会回答：'呃...我们在温迪餐厅'。然后突然反应过来：'哦对！我们是在温迪餐厅'。

I'd say, well, well, we're at Wendy's. And it's almost like a surprise. Oh, yeah. Here we are. We're we're at Wendy's.

他们接着问：'进门时首先要留意什么？'我会说：'要看有没有排队'。这是因为有时候我会径直冲到柜台前——并非想插队（这对非社交障碍者可能难以置信），而是我根本没注意到队伍。当时我的注意力完全集中在汉堡和薯条上，完全忽略了周边的社交信息。

What's the first thing you need to look for when you step inside the door? And I would say, well, I need to look and see if there's a line. And that's because sometimes I would go in and just shoot straight to the front. And not because I was trying to cut or or cheat, and this is hard for some non awkward people to believe, but because I didn't see the line or didn't register with me. I was so narrowly focused on the hamburger and the fries that I would just not see all of the social information off to the side.

有一次我排队时，你知道，我得决定点什么餐。我需要直视收银员的眼睛，说‘请’和‘谢谢’，不能像之前几次那样转身时打翻饮料洒到后面的人身上。这种情况不止发生过一次，在各种社交场合都发生过几十次。我的家人需要我养成思考的习惯，比如——

So once I was in line, you know, I need to figure out what to order. I need to look the cashier in the in the eye, say, please, say thank you, not whip around on my tray and spill my drink all over the people behind me like I had done a couple times previously. So this would happen not just once. This happened dozens of times for various kinds of social situations. And my folks would need me to get into the habit of thinking about, hey.

这个情境的目标是什么？你会遇到哪些细微的社交期待？然后你需要执行哪些行为才能在这个情境中表现得自然流畅？我想对大多数孩子来说，你只需说‘点餐时要有礼貌’，他们就能自动联想到所有细节行为。

What's what's the goal in the situation? What are the small expectations you're gonna encounter? And then what are the behaviors that you need to execute to be socially fluent in the situation? So I think with, you know, most kids, you could say, hey. Make sure you're polite, you know, when you're ordering or something like that, and they would think of all the little behaviors that go into that.

但对笨拙的孩子来说，这并不直观。所以必须把社交行为拆解成具体步骤。一旦这样做，你知道，我现在做得相当好。如果现在和我一起去温蒂汉堡，你会觉得我应对自如。

But for the awkward kid, that's not intuitive. And so you just need to break it down into component parts. And once you do that, you know, I was I was I was pretty good. I mean, if you walked with me until Wendy's now, I'm I'm pretty smooth.

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就像我过去总不知道如何开启对话与人建立联系。直到开始做美发工作才学会。对于那些不擅长社交的人，我在想是否存在万能开场问题？但其实这完全取决于具体场景。

Like I didn't always know how to get into a conversation and connect with somebody. I just learned it when I started doing hair. And for people who don't really know how to do it, I kind of was thinking, is there like a go to question or something? But it really depends on the setting.

那么，你实际上愿意或习惯与客户聊自己的事吗？还是刻意把话题焦点保持在客户身上，因为可能不想透露私事？

Yeah. So do you actually want to or feel comfortable talking about yourself with clients? Or do you actively like keep the focus on them and their stories because you maybe don't wanna share?

我很自在，什么都可以分享。只是有时觉得自己没什么有趣的事可说。比如当被问‘最近度假了吗？’而答案是否定的，我就不想谈自己。

I feel comfortable I will share anything. Sometimes I feel like I don't have anything that interesting to share. Sure. And so then I don't wanna talk about myself because it's like, oh, are you taking vacations? No.

好的。不错。确实很多人把这个问题当作他们最常问的私人话题。你有什么旅行计划吗？有的。

Okay. Cool. That's a lot of people really are that is their number one personal question. Do you have any trips planned? Yeah.

确实很多人这样。我也有这个毛病，因为这问题不算太私人对吧？但或许能给我们提供些谈资。

That is a lot of people that. I'm so guilty of that because it's like it's not too personal. Right. But it maybe it gives us something to talk about.

是啊。因为...

Yeah. Because it's

当话题枯竭时，我就用这个当填充问题。我会问'你有什么旅行计划吗？'毕竟我们得想办法聊点什么。

my conversation filler when I have, like, pretty much nothing left. I say, do you have any trips planned? Because I'm like, we gotta, like, we gotta drum something up here.

比如，聊着聊着可能就谈到旅行趣事，但也很容易陷入死胡同。确实如此。概率很高。

Like, it could really go somewhere where you're talking about a trip and, like, fun things, but it the potential for a dead end is That's true. High.

没错。这就说明你已经在没话找话了。

Yeah. That's how you know you're scraping the bottom of the barrel,

我想是的。有点像聊天气的那种感觉。懂吧？确实。

I guess. Yeah. Sort of like talking about the weather. You know? Yeah.

好吧，这就是我的感受。我会

Okay. That's how I feel. I'm gonna be

从现在开始对那个问题感到不自在。

self conscious about that question from now on.

抱歉，我

Sorry. I

没有

have no

不，不。让你有那种感觉

No. No. It's mean to make

是很刻薄的。

you feel that way.

不过，话说回来，

Well, also though,

想谈谈这个。是的。但这确实让我想起我也想问的问题，因为我们讨论的很多内容似乎都是关于闲聊如何以非常独特的方式体现在你的工作中。那么，你觉得你们在这里掌握的技能有多少能转化到现实世界中，又有多少是专门针对这种互动和关系的？

like talk about that. Yeah. But that that does remind me of something I wanted to ask too because I feel like a lot of what we've been talking about is, like, ways that the small talk manifests, like, very uniquely to your job. And so how much do you feel like the skills that y'all have here translate into the real world versus what is pretty specific to like this interaction in this relationship?

我觉得它们完全一样，立刻就能转化。

I feel like it translates exactly the same like immediately.

我觉得你在这方面真的很擅长。我在这方面有些挣扎，因为在美发沙龙里，我以一种奇怪的方式感到非常自在。但如果在咖啡店之类的地方遇到同一个人，我就会有点结巴，甚至卡壳，变得有点尴尬。我想这更多是因为我有些社交焦虑。

I think you're really good at that. I struggle with that because sometimes being in the hair salon, I'm really in my comfort zone in this weird way. And I'll see the same person at, like, the coffee shop or something. And I sort of stumble on my words and I sort of stump I don't I I get, like, a little awkward. And I think that's more of my I get some social anxiety going on.

如果是我不认识的人，这又回到你之前关于内向与外向的问题。对陌生人，我能进行一定程度的闲聊，但无法深入，因为环境更大。我更擅长那种一对一的交流。是的。那种时刻。

If it's people I don't know, and this goes back to your introvert versus extrovert question. If it's people I don't know, I can do that like small talk thing to an extent, but then I I can't go all the I can't get all the way because it's a bigger setting. There's more I'm really good in that, like sort of one on one. Yeah. Moment.

是的。

Yeah.

即使是美发沙龙，它确实是社区里的一个安全空间，因为我能告诉谁呢？你并不了解。我并不是那么投入，告诉我不会对他们的个人生活产生重大影响。对吧。所以他们可以畅所欲言

Like even the hair salon, it really is I think like a safe space in the community because who am I gonna tell? You don't know. I'm not so invested that telling me is gonna have like any major impact in their personal life. Right. So they can get things off

他们的

their

胸口并感到安全，知道这不像是在冒险。

chest and feel safe that it's not like a risk.

对，对。我也同意，如果你在社区中没有这些关系，你就错过了那种既私人又随意的感觉，而且...

Right, right. And I do agree if you're not having those relationships in your community, you are missing out on just sort of like it's it's personal, but it's casual and there's

是啊。我不知道。我不知道我们怎样才能达到一个境界，就是接受那种尴尬感不会要了我们的命。

Yeah. I don't know. I don't know how we get to a place where we just accept that feeling awkward won't kill us.

嗯。

Yeah.

但我还没到那一步。

But I'm not there yet.

我好奇的是，压力的一部分是否在于，一旦你开始和某人交谈，如果你确实开始感到尴尬，也许你不愿意立刻诚实地表达你感到尴尬，并想退出对话，这可能会很难做到。

I'm curious if part of the stress too is that once you start a conversation with someone, and if you do start to feel awkward, and maybe you're not comfortable being honest right away about the fact that you're feeling awkward, and you wanna dip out of the conversation, it can be hard to do that.

对我来说，一个可能会引起焦虑的情况是，如果我被困在火车上，比如和一个熟人，可能那趟火车要坐半个小时。我们该怎么办？我很想告诉你一个我曾经认识的人，我大学时的一个熟人，如果不是因为这个时刻，我根本不会记得他。他是我朋友的朋友。有一天，我们俩坐同一列火车一起去芝加哥。

For me, a situation that can cause some anxiety is if I am trapped with, say, like, an acquaintance on a train and maybe that train ride is half an hour long. And what are we gonna do? And I would love to tell you about a man that I once knew, an acquaintance of mine from college, who I truly would not remember at all were it not for this moment. He was a friend of a friend. And one day, we were both on the same train going down to Chicago together.

我在芝加哥郊外上学。那段火车旅程大约需要四十分钟到四十五分钟。他在交谈中使出了我至今见过最绝妙的‘反转忍者’招数——我们上车后，我心想：天啊。好吧，既然认识，我不得不和他寒暄。

I went to school outside of Chicago. And so this was like a good forty, forty five minute train ride. And he pulled the most, like, amazing Uno reverse ninja trick I've ever seen in conversation to this day, which is, you know, we got on the train and I'm like, oh god. Okay. I have to talk to him because we know each other.

于是我们进行了经典对话：'嘿，最近怎么样？我知道的那件事还顺利吗？''还行。你知道的那件事呢？''也不错。'

And so we did the very classic like, hey, how's it going? How's the one thing that I know about you? It's still good. How's the one thing that I know about you? It's fine.

然后话题就耗尽了。尴尬之际，他突然说：'和你聊天很愉快，现在我要看书了。'接着我们分坐车厢两端，各自读书度过了半小时的芝加哥列车之旅。

And then we ran out of material. Uh-oh. And he just said, it's been so great talking to you. I'm gonna go read my book now. And then we both sat down on opposite sides of the train and we read our books and we took that half hour train ride down to Chicago.

下车时我们友好地挥手告别。实际上后来再未相遇，但过去十年里我常想起这位男士——他以如此优雅的方式处理社交困境，这种能力实在罕见。

And when I got off the train, we did like a friendly wave. And I actually don't think we ever saw each other again. But I've thought about this man so regularly for the past, like, ten years because he just handled that interaction in such a smooth way that you almost never see.

我觉得现代人对这类社交场景——比如结识新朋友或电梯闲聊——比以往更感到尴尬，这种情绪似乎让人却步。

I think we feel kinda more awkward than ever about these kinds of things, meeting new people or the conversation in the elevator, and it seems to stop people.

为什么你认为我们比过去更害怕尴尬？

Why do you say you think that we're more fearful of awkwardness than we used to be?

部分原因或许在于：如今我们不必像过去那样频繁与人互动。通过社交媒体就能交流，可以沉迷手机，或宅家追剧。这些逃避方式让我们不必直面他人，不必经历初次相识的窘迫，不必担心可能遭拒——对方或许不想交往，这种可能性本身就很可怕。所以现在有些半社交或伪社交的替代方案来消磨时间。

I think maybe some of it has to do with the fact that, you know, we don't have to interact with people as much as we used to. We can do it through our social media or we can get absorbed in our phones or stay in the comfort of our home and stream some show. There's all these outs from actually being face to face with people and going through those uncomfortable moments of trying to get to know somebody for the first time or dealing with the prospect that they might reject us, that maybe they don't wanna hang out. And that's a scary thing as well. So I think there's these alternatives about how we can spend our time that are kind of semi social or fo social.

但我认为这实际上是有害的，因为它阻碍了我们面对面交流的努力，以及真正建立友谊的工作。

But I think that's actually damaging because it keeps us from doing the hard work of getting face to face and actually working to build a friendship.

你说的半社交、伪社交是什么意思？

What do you mean by semi social, faux social?

嗯，你知道，如果你和某人来回发短信，那没问题。但这显然不如坐下来共进晚餐并进行深入交谈那么好，对吧？社交媒体也是如此。我们在社交媒体上展现最好的一面，可能会有一些愉快的互动，但它们不如面对面的互动那样令人满足。

Well, you know, if you're texting back and forth with somebody, that's that's fine. But it's obviously not as good, right, as as sitting down with them for a long dinner and getting into just a deep conversation. And same thing with social media. We've kind put our best foot forward on on social media, and we might have some nice interactions, but they're not as gratifying as a face to face interaction with somebody.

发短信和伪社交互动在某种程度上是不是我们准备去温迪餐厅的方式？

Is the texting and the faux social interactions to some degree maybe, like, our way of preparing to go to Wendy's?

是的，绝对是。这是个好观点。比如在在线约会中，你可能会来回发消息，这让你对对方有一定的了解，在实际见面之前稍微推动互动，而实际上你真正想做的是面对面，看看是否有某种化学反应。但即使在柏拉图式的关系中，情况也是如此。

Yeah. Definitely. That's a that's a good point. In online dating, for example, you might send messages back and forth or whatever, and that kind of gives you a sense of the person, gets the interaction rolling a little bit before you actually meet up when all you really wanna do is get face to face and figure out if there might be some kind of chemistry here. But even in platonic situations, it's the same thing.

我们可能会陷入为早就该发生的事情做心理准备的困境中。

We can get stuck mentally preparing for something that should have happened, you know, a long time ago.

是的。这种对尴尬的恐惧的一个后果是，人们去参加派对或去酒吧时，只和他们已经认识的人交谈。你在生活中有注意到这一点吗？

Yeah. Well, one consequence of this fear of awkwardness is people go to parties or they go to bars and they only talk to people they already know. Have you noticed that in your life?

哦，当然。你知道吗，这让我特别想走过去对别人说些本不该我说的话。

Oh, for sure. You know, it's another thing kinda makes me just wanna go over and say things I have no business saying to other people.

比如什么？

Like what?

我就想说，去啊，去认识其他人。你看，你和一起来的三个人站在这里，看起来有点闷闷不乐。懂吗？去和那些你想交谈的人聊聊吧。

I just wanna say, like, go go meet other people. You know, you're standing here in your group of three you came in with, and you look semi sad. You know? Go talk to these other people you want you wanna talk to.

那我们该怎么打破这种局面？真的有必要打破吗，还是说在派对上和现有朋友待在一起的安全感也挺好？

So how can we break out of that? Do we really need to break out of that, or is it fine to just embrace the safety of hanging out with my existing friends at a party?

我个人偏见是觉得这样不行。要知道现在人与人之间普遍缺乏联系，多数人都需要更多朋友，尤其需要能建立深度信任、在困难时可以依靠的朋友。如果从这个角度看，是的，我们应该走出舒适圈，像跨越初中舞池那样去和陌生人搭话——即使可能被拒绝或遭遇尴尬，但这没关系。

My bias would be I don't think that's okay. You know, there's all this disconnection going on, so the average person could benefit from more friends and certainly benefit from more friends that they've built some quality intimacy with and they feel they can go to in a time of need. So if we go with that perspective, then, yeah, you know, we should break out of our shell, and we should cross that junior high dance floor of sorts and go talk to somebody new knowing that this person might reject us or knowing that the interaction might be a little bit awkward, but but that's okay.

某种程度上这种恐惧是合理的。你确实可能会觉得尴尬。毕竟人生在世，谁没在社交场合出过糗呢？但泰让我明白，有时候正是强装不尴尬才让事情更尴尬。他的所有建议归根结底就是：保持真诚。

I mean, to some degree, it's a justified fear. You probably will feel awkward. Like, you actually aren't gonna make it through this life, like, without being awkward in social situations. But I think, like, Ty made me realize that part of what makes things so awkward sometimes is trying to pretend that they're not. Like, all of his advice would boil down to just be honest.

比如直接走到派对上不认识的人面前说：'我在派对上谁也不认识，能和你们一起吗？'我这辈子都想不到会说这种话。我大概会假装若无其事地站在饮料台旁，悄悄蹭进对话里，希望一切自然没人发现我其实格格不入。寒暄最难的部分就在于它太依赖情境了。

Like, just go up to those people that you don't know at the party and say, I don't know anyone at the party. Can I hang out with you? And, like, I would never in a million years have thought to say that to somebody. Like, I would probably try to be, like, nonchalant by the punch bowl and, like, sidle my way into a conversation and hope it was just cool and nobody noticed that I didn't really belong there, you know? Some of what is really challenging about small talk is it's so situational.

嗯。在火车上与你钦佩的人闲聊，和初次约会时的闲聊是不同的。还有每个人的反应，比如他们是否想独处，对交谈的开放程度，你感到的尴尬程度，以及他们感到的尴尬程度。但我认为可以找到一种折中的方式，稍微观察一下氛围，或许准备一些问题备用。而且，确实有些时候我戴着耳机看着手机，也不想被人打扰。

Mhmm. Small talk with someone you admire on a train is different than small talk on a first date. And then there's also each individual person's reactions and, like, whether they wanna be left alone and how open they are to conversation and how awkward you feel and how awkward they feel. But I think there can be a middle path where you read the room a bit, maybe you have some questions in your back pocket. And, you know, there's certainly times where I leave my headphones in and I'm looking at my phone and I don't really wanna be spoken to either.

但我觉得我们必须考虑到，如果总是这样，我们会错过什么。

But I think we have to bear in mind what we miss out on if we do that all the time.

是的。我想这正是我所疑惑的，我们失去的是否是所有人都不再尝试与他人开启对话的习惯。

Yes. And I think that's exactly what I wonder is if what gets lost is all of us getting used to not trying to start up a conversation with anyone.

是的。出于出于

Yeah. Out of out of

恐惧，或者担心这不会有任何结果，没有任何意义。

fear or out of fear that it won't lead anywhere. It doesn't mean anything.

是的。我记得Mimi和Erin经常谈到她们在工作中进行的对话如何激励她们。不仅仅是娱乐价值，还感觉这些对话是有意义的，为她们的生活带来了独特而特别的东西。虽然听到她们有时也会为此挣扎让我感到安慰。

Yeah. I remember Mimi and Erin talking a lot about how fueled they actually are by all the conversations that they have at work. And, like, not just purely for entertainment value, but also, like, feeling like these conversations are meaningful and they are bringing something unique and special into their lives. Although it was reassuring for me to hear that they struggle with it sometimes too.

这让我感到意外。

I was surprised by that.

是啊，我明白。关键在于他们对人抱有真诚的兴趣，这种对眼前之人的纯粹好奇心能推动对话自然流动。

Yeah. I know. It's just that they were interested in people and just like having a genuine curiosity for the person that's in front of you fuels conversation.

虽然这个话题很元认知，但我们必须要讨论它。必须好好聊聊。

As meta as that is, we gotta talk about it. We gotta talk.

说到这里，贝卡，和你一起制作播客真是太棒了，现在我要去看书啦。

On that note, Becca, it's been so great making a podcast with you, and I'm gonna go read my book now.

以上就是本周《如何与人交谈》的全部内容。本期节目由我——丽贝卡·拉希德制作，朱莉·贝克主持，剪辑由乔斯林·弗兰克和克劳丁·阿巴德完成，事实核查由安娜·阿尔瓦拉多负责，音响工程师是罗布·斯默西亚克。

That's all for this week's episode of How to Talk to People. This episode was produced by me, Rebecca Rashid, and hosted by Julie Beck. Editing by Jocelyn Frank and Claudine Abade. Fact check by Anna Alvarado. Our engineer is Rob Smersiak.

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L'Oreal Group, we reached 97% renewable energy for our sites at the 2024, and we aim for 100% by 02/1930. This is how we create the beauty that moves the world.