如何与人交谈：如何避免独自前行

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This podcast is brought to you by Eleven Labs, the company behind AI voices that don't sound like AI voices, like this one. Learn more at visit11labs.ioatlantic to get started for free.

朱莉，你还记得我第一次在办公室接近你的时候吗？因为我记得非常清楚，我从你办公桌后面给你发了条消息说：嗨。我可以来你桌前吗？同时盯着坐在桌前的你。让我们说清楚，距离不到10英尺。是的。

Julie, do you remember the first time I approached you in the office? Because I remember it very clearly, and I sent you a message from behind your desk saying, hi. Can I come to your desk while staring at you sitting at your desk? From, let's be clear, less than 10 feet away. Yes.

我当时说，当然可以。我记得你当时有点犹豫，当你悄悄走近时，我心想，你不需要征求许可来跟我打招呼。然后我还在想是不是我看起来特别难以接近之类的。但我真的很高兴见到你，因为我们已经在Zoom上合作一段时间了，但那是我们第一次见面。我保证那不是我通常的打招呼方式。

I was like, yes, you can. I remember you being like really tentative when you kinda crept up and I was like, you don't have to ask permission to come say hi to me. And then I was wondering whether I looked like really unapproachable or something. But I was really excited to meet you because we've been working together on Zoom for a while, but it was the first time we'd met in person. And I promise that is not my usual approach.

我想我只是有点忘记如何做人了，忘记在办公室与人共事是什么感觉了。所以我觉得我以为自己很有礼貌，但可能反而让事情变得有点奇怪。嗨。我是朱莉·贝克，《大西洋月刊》的高级编辑。我是贝卡·拉希德，《如何》系列的制作人。

I think I just forgot how to human a little bit and what it felt like to work with people in an office. So I think I thought I was being polite, but I maybe just made it a bit weird. Hi. I'm Julie Beck, a senior editor at The Atlantic. And I'm Becca Rashid, producer of the How To Series.

这里是《如何与人交谈》

This is How To Talk

与人交谈。当

to People. When

在我那次尴尬的桌前接近之后，朱莉和我第一次聚在一起开发这个系列时，我们讨论了很多关于我们希望这个节目如何探索日常的小对话如何能变成我们生活中渴望的更深层次的联系。知道如何与人交谈不仅仅是为了开启对话或克服闲聊的尴尬。关键在于最终能更深入地理解我们周围的人。我一直想要的，也是我认为许多人渴望的，是这种成为丰富互联社区一份子的感觉。拥有一个充满支持和爱的扩展网络，其中包含多种不同类型、服务于不同目的的关系。

Julie and I first got together to develop the series after my awkward desk approach, we talked a lot about how we wanted the show to explore how small everyday conversations can become the deeper connections that we want more of in our lives. Knowing how to talk to people isn't simply for the sake of starting conversation or fighting through the awkwardness of small talk. The point is to ultimately reach a deeper understanding of the people around us. What I've always wanted and what I think so many people long for is this sense that you are part of a rich interconnected community. That you have an extended network of support and love full of many different kinds of relationships that serve many different purposes.

我们在播客中探讨过的各种对话类型，都是通往这一目标的基石。现在，我们迎来了最终集，这一集意义重大。我们将讨论如何建立社群，这可能是一个非常复杂的概念。那些阻碍我们找到浓厚社群感的障碍，不仅存在于我们内心的心理层面，还存在着文化层面的壁垒。

And the types of conversations we've explored in the podcast so far are the stepping stones that lead up to that. And now, we've arrived at our finale episode, and this is a big one. We're going to talk about how you build a community, and that can be a really complex concept. The barriers that can make that rich sense of community feel hard to find are not just psychological within our own minds, but there are cultural barriers too.

美国关于自由的叙事是极度个人主义的，它认为依赖或指望他人会让你更不自由，而如果只需依靠自己，你就会更自由。

The American narrative about freedom, which is deeply individualistic, which is that depending on or or counting on other people makes you less free, and you're more free if you only have to count on yourself.

主动寻求帮助可能正是我们找到所需社群支持的关键。我常常会想，哎呀，我搞不定这个。然后我就意识到，

Reaching out may be exactly what we need to do to find the community support we need. I'm just like, oh, I can't figure this out. And I'm like,

拜托，就像，寻求帮助啊。比如，找个人聊聊这件事。

duh. Like, ask for help. Like, talk to somebody about it.

米娅·伯德桑是《我们如何出现：重拾家庭、友谊和社群》一书的作者。在我们的对话中，她探讨了根植于国家历史的不公如何限制了人们彼此连接的能力，以及我们如何理解社群的定义。

Mia Birdsong is the author of a book called How We Show Up, Reclaiming Family, Friendship, and Community. In our conversation, she explores how the injustices baked into our country's history have limited people's ability to connect with one another and how we understand the definition of community.

某种程度上，就像，一个曾是奴隶的人，之所以被认为不自由，不仅是因为他们被束缚，还因为他们与自己的族人分离。而自由意味着处于相互连接的社群之中。

Part of how, like, somebody who was a slave, right, was considered unfree was not just because they were in bondage, but because they'd been separated from their people. And to be free was to be in connected community.

米娅指出，如今有太多人将自由与独立划等号。这可能导致我们在本不必独自面对时选择孤军奋战。

Mia argues that today, too many people equate freedom with independence. And that can lead us to go it alone when we don't need to.

我认为我们一直被灌输一种观念，对吧，那些强大的人、那些取得成就和成功的人都是靠自己做到的。他们自己想办法解决问题。而实际上，从苦难中获得某种小小的荣誉勋章。

And I think we've been told, right, that, like, the people who are strong, the people who are achieving and successful are doing it on their own. They're figuring out how to do it on their own. And that there is actually some, like, little badge of honor that we get from suffering.

我觉得我们确实给自己编了很多故事，认为别人一定比我们过得更好、更从容。

I think we definitely tell ourselves a lot of stories about how other people must have it more together than we do.

而这与作为一个人真正意味着什么是如此背道而驰。

And that is, like, so antithetical to what it means to be a person.

米娅深入探讨了所有这些。她分享了实用的建议，告诉我们如何在不感到愧疚的情况下向他人寻求支持，以及这如何能真正将我们凝聚在一起。米娅，有很多研究都表明美国人有多么孤独，许多人与邻居多么疏离，甚至很多人感觉没有可以倾诉的对象。你认为这背后的原因是什么？

Mia gets into all of it. She shares real advice about how to ask people for support without feeling bad about it, and how that can actually bring us together. Mia, there's been a lot of research on how lonely Americans are, how disconnected many people are from their neighbors, and a lot of people feeling like they don't have anybody to confide in even. What do you think is behind that?

有一项哈佛研究。还有几项信诺（Cigna）的研究。BBC做了一个孤独实验，那是一项全球性研究。而且，你知道，美国人很孤独。孤独感一直在加剧。

There's a Harvard study. There's been a couple of Cigna studies. The BBC did a loneliness experiment, which was a global study. And, you know, Americans are lonely. Loneliness has been increasing.

毫不意外，疫情让情况变得更糟。BBC的研究很有趣，因为它发现孤独感在年轻人、男性和生活在个人主义社会（也就是美国）的人群中最高。

And unsurprisingly, the pandemic made it worse. The BBC study was interesting because it found that loneliness is highest among young people, men, and those who are in an individualistic society, aka America.

你认为个人主义在其中扮演了什么角色？

What is the role that you think individualism plays in all this?

是的。当我思考美国的个人主义时，我将其与资本主义紧密联系起来。美国如何定义成功的模样以及成为一个好人的意义。资本主义所做的一部分就是引入了金钱交换。我并没有，你知道，和一群朋友一起建造我的房子。

Yeah. And when I think about individualism in America, I connect that very strongly to capitalism. How America defines what success looks like and what it means to be like a good person. And part of what capitalism has done is it has inserted the exchange of money. I didn't, you know, get together with a bunch of my friends and build my house.

我付钱建造了它。你付钱请人照看你的孩子。有趣的是，在没有钱的人当中，对吧，那些无法轻易获得金钱的人，你会看到更多基于关系的托儿服务。对吧？比如，你的邻居、最好的朋友、姐妹或父亲会照顾你的孩子。

I paid for it. You pay a person to watch your children. What's interesting is that among people who don't have money, right, who don't have as as much access to money, you see a lot more relational childcare. Right? Like, where your neighbor or your best friend or your sister or your dad take care of your kids.

然后那种社会结构，对吧，就在其中建立起来，因为，你知道，这不是一笔交易。这就像家人会做的事。然后我认为另一点是，成功的定义很大程度上是关于，你知道，一个人可以白手起家的理念。对吧？或者靠自己的努力出人头地。

Then that social fabric, right, gets built in that because, you know, it's not a transaction. It is like what family does. And then I think the other piece is that the definition of success is so much about, you know, the idea that one can be a self made man. Right? Or pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.

所以有这样一种观念，即作为一个个体，你会努力工作，靠自己成功，这当然掩盖了人们实际获得的所有帮助，无论是来自现有体系，还是取决于你与该体系关系所享有的特权和优势。所以我想到，你知道，出生富裕的人往往保持富裕。如果你是白人，如果你是男性，如果你是健全人，如果你是异性恋，就像，你最终拥有所有这些优势。

So there's this idea that, like, as an individual, you're going to work hard and you're going to make it on your own, which invisibilizes, of course, all of the help that people do get, either from the systems that exist and the privileges and advantages you have depending on on your relationship with that system. So I think about, you know, people who are born wealthy tend to stay wealthy. If you're white, if you're male, if you're able-bodied, if you're straight, like, there are all of these advantages that you end up having.

而且有一种感觉，承认你确实得到的任何帮助，似乎会让你的成功显得不那么令人印象深刻。

And there's a sense to, like, acknowledging any help that you did get makes your success seem less impressive somehow.

我们认为寻求帮助是一种软弱的表现。你越执着于这种关于成功、幸福和善良意味着什么的版本，你就越少与他人联系，因为你在外面试图靠自己成功。某种程度上，就像，一个曾是奴隶的人，对吧，被认为不自由不仅仅是因为他们被束缚，还因为他们与自己的族人分离。而自由就是处于相互连接的社区中。哇。

And we think that asking for help is a form of weakness. The more attached you are to this version of what it means to be successful and happy and good, the less you are connected to other humans because you're out there trying to make it on your own. Part of how, like, somebody who was a slave, right, was considered unfree was not just because they were in bondage, but because they had been separated from their people. And to be free was to be in connected community. Wow.

这为我思考美国的黑人经历增添了一个全新的层次，从被绑架和从家乡贩运开始。如果我们认为我们的人民不仅仅是我们周围的人，还有我们来自的土地，我们的祖先。对吧？一直到，你知道，美国实行奴隶制的一个内在部分就是关于被卖离家人、进入监狱工业综合体的威胁或经历。对吧？

And it added a whole other layer to how I think about, like, the black experience in America from being kidnapped and trafficked from home. And if we think about, like, our people as being not just the human beings around us, but also, like, the land we're from, our ancestors. Right? Through to, you know, an intrinsic part of the way that America practiced slavery was about the threat or experience of being sold away from your family to, you know, the prison industrial complex. Right?

而贯穿这一切的，还有黑人对压迫的抵抗——有人从奴隶船上跳海，心想无论如何我都要回家。显然，还有人从种植园逃跑。解放后留存下一批档案（可在线查阅），全是我们在报纸上刊登的寻人启事，寻找失散数十年的亲人。

And through all of that, there's also been black people's resistance to it from people jumping overboard slave ships because they're like, you know, I'm going home one way or another. Obviously, people running away from plantations. After emancipation, there's this archive. You can look at these online. There were all of these advertisements that we placed in newspapers trying to find loved ones that we hadn't seen for, like, decades.

有时是寻找孩子，有时是父母，有时是最好的朋友，有时是配偶。这些启事既美好又令人心碎，因为它们都极其简短。

Sometimes it was one of our children. Sometimes it was a parent. Sometimes it was, like, a best friend. Sometimes it was a spouse. They're beautiful and heartbreaking because they're all very short.

明白吗？都是人们在诉说如何寻找某人，他们被卖给了某个主人，名字可能都改了。尽管关于亲人的信息有限，但他们寻找的决心本身就是对奴隶制剥夺黑人自由的反抗，这是一种执念。

You know? But they're, like, people talking about how they're looking for somebody, and they were sold to this person. So, like, their name might have changed. The limit on the kind of information they had about this loved one, but the determination that they had to find them was just like rejection, right, of the ways in which slavery was making black people unfree. There was this insistence.

没错？重获连接的自由。完全正确。

Right? Freedom to reconnect. Totally.

想想我认识多少黑人朋友，直到成年才发现鲍比叔叔其实不是父亲的亲兄弟，而是父亲小学时的挚友。我有个朋友说她与兄弟姐妹翻看家庭照片时，突然分不清哪些是选择的家人，哪些是有血缘或法律关系的家人——而最终这并不重要。这一切与美国那种极度个人主义的自由叙事形成鲜明对比：依赖他人会削弱自由，自给自足才是真自由，意味着你需要囤积资源，通过交易获取一切，这样就不欠任何人。

You know, when I think about how many black folks I know who find out, you know, when they're an adult that uncle Bobby is not actually their dad's brother, but is their dad's, like, best friend from elementary school. Like, I mean, I have a friend who told me about her and her siblings looking at these family photos and realizing they didn't know who was chosen family and who was, like, blood or legal family. And then also, ultimately, that it didn't matter. And all of that stands in such stark contrast to the American narrative about freedom, which is deeply individualistic, which is that depending on or counting on other people makes you less free, and you're more free if you only have to count on yourself, which means that you need to hoard resources so that you have everything that you need. You get everything through transaction so that, like, you know, you don't owe anybody.

这意味着你不求助，不对任何人负责或承担义务。所谓自由就是为所欲为，没人能指手画脚。对吧？是的。

It means you don't ask for help. It means you're not responsible for or accountable to anybody. The idea of freedom being, like, you can do whatever the hell you want and, like, nobody can tell you otherwise. Right? Yep.

而这完全违背了为人之本——我们本质上是社会性动物。我们不是从蛋里孵出就能自顾自生活的蜥蜴，无法完全自力更生。

And that is, like, so antithetical to what it means to be a person because we are fundamentally social animals. You know? We're not lizards that, like, hatch out of an egg and then go about our business and able to, like, fend for ourselves.

你自己一个人待在岩石上。

Yourself on a rock by yourself.

我们不能一出生就立即，比如说，马上去自己觅食。我们需要被照顾，对吧？这确实是我们作为婴儿时所需的一部分，对吧？

We can't go and just, like, immediately but we're not born, and then we just, like, go get feed ourselves. Like, we need care. Right? That is, like like, part of what we need certainly as babies. Right?

没有婴儿能为自己做任何事，无论是作为孩子还是成人。而美国这种自由观念却与此如此割裂。

No baby can do anything for itself as children and as adults. And this American idea of freedom is so separated from that.

所以当你说美国梦叙事与自由相对立时，你具体指的是什么样的美国梦叙事？

So when you say the American dream narrative is antithetical to freedom, what do you specifically mean by the American dream narrative?

当我思考那些被写入宪法、权利法案的基本理念时，比如生命、自由和追求幸福的权利，以及是谁在阐述这些理念。

So when I think about the kind of fundamental ideals that were written into, you know, the constitution, the bill of rights, and the idea of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and who was articulating that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？所以我们有的是白人、异性恋（据我们所知）、有地产的男性——是的。他们只代表了美国人口的少数。

Right? So we had white, straight, as far as we know, right, landowning men Yep. Who represented a minority of the American population.

嗯。

Mhmm.

女性完全不被考虑。这就差不多占了一半。没有黑人。没有穷人。所以当我想到这一点，再想想美国梦是什么，那就是理想化的版本。

Women were not considered at all. That's, like, half right there. No black people. No poor people. So when I think about that and I think about what the American dream is, that's the ideal.

对吧？而且你要通过努力工作来实现它，不寻求帮助，然后，你知道，就像在积累自己的王国。这根本不是做人。这与社群无关。这不是关于关心他人。

Right? And that you do that through working hard, not asking for help, and, you know, you're amassing, like, your kingdom. That is not being a person. That is not about being in community. It's not about caring for others.

这里面完全没有爱的成分。就像，爱是人类体验中如此核心的存在部分，我们对爱的追求、渴望和需要。

There's nothing in there about love. Like, it's such an existentially central part of the human experience, our, like, pursuit of and desire for and need for love.

你能告诉我一个你的社群真正为你挺身而出的时刻吗？

Can you tell me about a time your community really showed up for you?

可以。2021年7月，我被诊断出患有结肠癌，而且是三期结肠癌。我需要做手术，最终经历了三个月非常密集的化疗，非常激进的化疗。唉。是的。

Yes. In July 2021, I got diagnosed with colon cancer and stage three colon cancer. And I was gonna have to have surgery and ultimately went through three months of really intensive chemotherapy, very aggressive chemo. Ugh. Yeah.

一点也不好玩。但就在我得知消息大约二十分钟后，我和我的朋友艾莎通了电话。我们当时在一起做一个项目，我很焦虑，不是因为我被告知得了癌症，而是因为我不知道什么时候能继续这个项目。所以我完全在电话里对她说，姐妹，真的很抱歉。但我刚发现自己得了癌症，需要做手术。

It was no fun. But so twenty minutes after I got, like, the news, I had a phone call with my friend Aisha. We were working on a project together, and I was, like, all anxious, not because I had been told I had cancer, but because I didn't know when I was gonna be able to, like, continue the project. So I totally got on the phone with her, and I was like, girl, I'm so sorry. But I just found out I have cancer, and I have to have surgery.

所以我不得不推迟这个项目的工作。她当时对我说，米娅，她说，让我们深呼吸一下。就在那个呼吸间，我从那种躲在恐惧背后、只想着必须完成工作的状态，转变到了一个能够感受到自己有多害怕、但同时又不孤单的境地。

So I'm gonna have to, like, postpone my work on this project. She was like, Mia. She was like, let's take a breath. And in that breath, I moved from kind of, like, my hiding from what was scary about this behind, like, I have to get this work done Yeah. To being in this place of being able to, like, one, feel how afraid I was, but also, like, not alone.

在我们挂电话之前，她已经安排好了送餐服务。这最终确保了我住院做手术恢复期间，以及后来进行化疗的那三个月里，我的家人能有饭吃。然后她又联系了我们的另外三位朋友。这群自称'米娅护理小队'的黑人女性们，基本上协调了我更大社区里所有我需要的一切事务。她们还制作了电子表格。

Before we got off the phone, she had the meal train set up Aw. That would ultimately make sure that my family got fed while I was in the hospital recovering from surgery, and then for, you know, the three months that I was going through chemo. She then circled up with three other friends of ours. And this group of black women who called themselves Mia's care squad, then basically coordinated, like, all of the things with all the rest of my community, like, larger community that I would need. They made spreadsheets.

比如，她们有邮件群组，有一小队人专门帮我跑腿。嗯。她们收集了大家的建议，这样我就不会被各种建议轰炸。但我其实很想要建议，因为我想，我以前从没得过癌症，我需要这些建议。

Like, they had email chains, a squad of people who would run errands for me. Mhmm. They collected everybody's advice, so I wasn't getting bombarded with, like, you know, all kinds of advice. But I totally wanted advice because I was like, I never had cancer before. I want the advice.

我觉得她们不仅照顾了我的身体健康，还呵护了我的精神和心灵。她们为我设立了一个'快乐基金'。

Like, I feel like there was this way in which they tended to my physical well-being, but they also were tending to my spirit and my heart. They created a joy fund for me.

天啊，这是什么意思？

Oh my gosh. What does that mean?

就是一笔钱，专门让我花在能带来快乐的事情上。嗯。我买了很多美术用品。我做手术的时候，有一群人就在医院外面的草坪上为我唱歌。这群人聚在一起的方式让我印象深刻，我记得一开始我就下定决心：我一定要告诉我的社区我发生了什么。

Which, like, was a pile of money for me to spend only on things that would bring me joy. Uh-huh. I bought a lot of art supplies. When I was having surgery, there was a group of people outside on the hospital lawn singing for me. The way that this group of people came together and I remember having this moment in the beginning of being like, I am absolutely going to tell my community what's going on with me.

我不想成为那种偷偷接受化疗的人。我说，每个人都会知道，而且我一定会向他们求助。

I'm not gonna be one of those people who, like, you know, like secretly goes through chemo. I'm like, everybody's gonna know. And I am absolutely asking for their help.

我

I

不想独自做这件事。

do not want to do this thing by myself.

听到朋友们在你病房外唱歌是什么感觉？

What did it feel like to hear your friends singing outside your hospital room?

嗯，我当时听不到，因为我在医院地下室做结肠部分切除手术。但我知道他们在那里。我记得在接受麻醉时，因为入院时看到了他们，我就一直把他们记在脑海里。天啊。

Well, I couldn't hear them because I was in the basement of the hospital having my part of my colon taken out. But I knew that they were there. And, like, I remember as I was getting the, like, anesthesia, like, holding because I saw them when I was coming into the hospital. I remember just, like, holding them in my head. And, oh my god.

因为你知道，我当时很害怕。知道他们在外面为我唱歌，这让我感到非常安慰。现在我已经癌症康复超过一年了。回顾那段经历，我的意思是，那真的很糟糕。太可怕了。

Like, it was so because I was, you know, I was terrified. I was so comforting to know that they were out there singing for me. So I've now been cancer free for more than a year. And when I look back on that experience, I mean, it sucked. It was terrible.

癌症很糟糕，化疗也很糟糕。但在某种程度上，它让社区的纽带更加紧密了。我的意思是，我们已经与很多人分享了这些表格，我知道我们社区的做法已经成为其他人的榜样

Like, cancer sucks. Chemo sucks. But there's a way in which it, like, wove the fabric of community together tighter for them. I mean, we have shared the spreadsheets with so many other people, and I know that what my community did has been a model for other people

嗯。

Mhmm.

那些同样经历过癌症或其他可怕事情的人。我感到非常感激，能够得到如此程度的关爱和照顾，并且对于接受这些帮助没有任何羞耻感。

Who have also gone through cancer or just like, you know, something terrible. I feel so grateful that I got to have that level of love and care and that I didn't have any shame about receiving it.

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我想多谈谈寻求帮助和提供帮助这件事，因为我觉得这个话题很有分量。为什么我们中有这么多人都不愿意寻求帮助？

I wanna talk more about asking for help and offering help because I feel like that's very loaded. Why are so many of us hesitant to ask for help?

我认为，首先，我们经常看不到别人寻求帮助，所以我们以为其他人都是靠自己完成的，这是个谎言。不仅不是所有人都靠自己完成，而且好像还很轻松。对吧？实际上，如果我们全靠自己，所有人都会一团糟。我们都在受苦。

I think that, one, we often don't see people asking for help, so we think everybody else is doing it on their own, which is a lie. Not only is everybody else doing it on their own, but but, like, it's easy. Right? When in fact, all of us are just a hot mess if we're doing it on our own. We're suffering.

全都是假象和障眼法。

It's all smoke and mirrors.

完全正确。所以有这一层因素。而且我认为我们一直被灌输这样的观念：那些强大、有成就且成功的人都是靠自己做到的。他们自己想办法解决问题。实际上，我们从受苦中获得某种小小的荣誉勋章。

Totally. So there's that piece. And I think we've been told, right, that, like, the people who are strong, who are achieving and successful are doing it on their own. They're figuring out how to do it on their own. And that there is actually some, like, little badge of honor that we get from suffering.

尤其在我二三十岁的时候，人们会以某种自豪的语气说自己没睡觉、非常疲惫。

When I was in my twenties and thirties, especially, the way that people would say, like, how they got no sleep and were really tired as, like, something they were proud of.

我工作太多了。我太忙了。我的日程排得满满的。我太累了。确实如此。

I worked so much. I'm so busy. My calendar's so full. I'm so tired. Exactly.

我就像在说，恭喜？

I'm like, congratulations?

是的。完全就像，那种情况。那就像是，我为了高效而受苦。我为了成就而受苦。所以我们某种程度上把痛苦和成为一个好人以及成就联系在一起了。

Yes. Exact like, that thing. That is like, I have suffered in order to be productive. I have suffered in order to achieve. So that there is some way in which we have tied together suffering and pain with being a good person and achievement.

我觉得我现在处于这样一个阶段：不，我想要轻松。仅仅因为我能自己做某事，并不意味着我应该做。我绝对要提醒自己这一点。比如，我经常发现自己陷入挣扎。

I feel like I'm at this place where I'm like, no. I want ease. Just because I can do something myself doesn't mean that I should. I absolutely have to remind myself of this. Like, I often find myself struggling.

通常，是和我正在思考的事情有关，不完全是需要完成的任务，但我就是，哦，我搞不定这个。然后我就，哎呀。比如，寻求帮助。比如，和别人谈谈。

Usually, it's with something that I'm thinking, not so so much like a a task I need to do, but I'm just like, oh, I can't figure this out. And I'm like, duh. Like, ask for help. Like, talk to somebody about it.

没错。

Right.

而且不可避免地，即使只是分享，比如，那件事的焦虑、压力或困难，就像，仅仅因为被见证，我就自动感觉好多了。

And inevitably, even if it's just sharing the, like, anxiety or stress or hardness of the thing, like, automatically feel better just because I'm being witnessed.

有没有正确的方式去寻求帮助？

Is there a right way to ask for help?

嗯，我来告诉你对我有效的方法。我通常发现广泛撒网更好。只问一个人而被拒绝意味着你得重新再来一遍。你知道，当我向邻居们发短信要柠檬时，我会给所有人发短信，而不是一个一个地发。

Well, I'm a tell you what works for me. I often find generally that casting a wide net is better. Asking one person and them saying no means you have to go do it again. You know, when I text my neighbors for a lemon, right, I text all of them. I'm not texting them one at a time.

我认为另一点是要坦白自己，并且说

I think the other thing is to tell on yourself and to say

告发自己。

To tattle on yourself.

我需要，是的。就像这样：我需要帮助处理某事。我发现寻求帮助真的很有挑战性。我不想成为负担。但我还是要这么做。

I need to yes. To be like to be like, I need help with something. I'm finding it really challenging to ask for help. I don't wanna be a burden. I'm gonna do it anyway.

然后，理想情况下，你能够与人交谈，他们可以安慰你说你不是负担。我不认识有谁不断寻求帮助以至于别人会说'天啊，别再说了'。

And then, like, ideally, you you're able to have conversations with people, and they can reassure you that you're not a burden. I don't know anybody who is constantly asking for help that other people are like, oh my god. Like, stop.

没错。

Right.

这跟我的经历不太一样。我觉得大多数时候我们问得不够多。也许可以从那些感觉不那么费力、对你来说不那么关键，但能给你带来一些轻松的事情开始练习。如果你知道朋友要去商店，对吧，让他们顺便帮你带点咖啡，反正他们也要去那里。然后你可以过去拿咖啡。

Like, that's not my experience. I feel like mostly we don't ask enough. Maybe practice with things that feel like less of a lift, that don't feel so, like, critical to you, but that feel like they would bring you some ease. If you know a friend is going to the store, right, ask them to pick you up some coffee because they're gonna be there anyway. And then you can go by and get the coffee.

如果他们拒绝帮忙带咖啡，这不会以同样的方式摧毁我的信心。

And if they say no to picking up the coffee, that doesn't destroy my confidence in the same way.

完全同意。我不会像'天啊'那样反应。也许我已经有咖啡了，我只是假装需要咖啡，看看会发生什么。

Totally. I'm not like, oh my god. Like, maybe I already have coffee, and I'm just gonna, like, pretend I need coffee and see what happens.

你对提供帮助的正确方式有什么看法？因为我经常听到的一个建议是，你不应该问'我能怎么帮忙'或'我能为你做什么'？因为这会给人增加压力，让他们在可能处于危机或其他情况下还要为你找事情做。所以建议是

What are your thoughts on the right way to offer help? Because a piece of advice that I hear a lot is that you shouldn't ask, how can I help or what can I do for you? Because that's more stress on the person to then find something for you to do when maybe they're in crisis or something. So the advice is like

没错。因为这样不够具体。

Right. Because it's not specific.

然后建议是，你应该在不被要求的情况下主动做些什么。但如果那样不受欢迎怎么办？

And then the advice is you should just do something without being asked. But then what if that's unwelcome?

完全正确。所以这就是为什么我也觉得，我们需要停止在请求和提供帮助方面追求完美。我感觉被这话说中了。我们会搞砸的，对吧？

Totally. So this is where I'm also like, we need to stop trying to get an a in in asking and offering for help. I feel very called out by that. We're not we're gonna mess it up. Right?

就像，我们要去...我知道。他们都是那些，嗯，所有那些，像是，所有的高成就者都像是，我想在提供帮助方面拿个A+。我觉得如果我们真的不知道能提供什么，我们可以对人说：我想提供一些帮助，但不知道什么对你有用。你有什么想法吗？或者你身边有没有人知道什么可能有用，我可以和他们谈谈吗？

Like, we're going to I know. They're all of the, like, all of the, like, high achievers are like, I I wanna get an a plus in in offering help. I think if we really have no idea what we can offer, we can say to people, I wanna offer some help, and I don't know what would be useful to you. Do you have an idea about something that would be useful? Or is there someone who is close to you who does know what might be useful, and can I talk to them?

我们不想提供没用的帮助，因为这感觉有风险。我认为这时候我们必须，嗯，利用我们对所爱之人的了解，想出三件你可以提供的事情。对吧？然后提供这些看看他们是否需要其中任何一项，或者做一件事看看结果如何，给他们带食物。是的。

We don't wanna offer help that is not useful, but I because it feels risky. And I think this is where we have to, like, tap into what we know about our loved ones and come up with, here are three things that you could offer. Right? And offer those and see if they want any of them, or do a thing and see what happens and bring them food. Yeah.

给他们食物。亲人去世的悲痛不会因为你给了他们面包而他们却对麸质过敏而变得更糟。

Give them food. The death of a loved one is not gonna be made worse by the fact that you gave them bread and they're gluten free.

对。对。那时候都是小事了。

Right. Right. Small potatoes at that point.

没错。就像，当我想到像快乐基金这样的事情时。对吧？这需要某种想象力才能想出来，我认为在我们都忙于工作、照顾孩子、通勤等等的时候，这种想象力更难获得。对吧？

Exactly. Like, when I think about something like a joy fund. Right? Like, there's a kind of imagination that was required to come up with that that I think is is harder in times where we're all, like, grinding with work and shepherding children and commuting and, like, all of that. Right?

疫情放缓有某种意义。在我看来，那是资本主义车轮的放缓，让人们有空间以特定的方式为我出现。我说这些是因为我希望我们，尤其是现在，我们并非后疫情时代，但资本主义的车轮已经开始像以前那样运转。而且，嗯，我们的心智能力被我们有偿和无偿的劳动以及所有你知道的维持生活的事情所消耗。所以我希望当我们发现难以为社区创造所需空间时，能给自己一些宽容。

There was something about the slowing down of the pandemic. And in my mind, that was the, like, slowing down of the wheel of capitalism that gave people room to show up for me in a particular way. And I'm saying all of that because I want us, especially right now, we're not post pandemic, but the wheels capitalism has started is winding along the way that it was before. And, like, our mental capacity gets sucked up by both our paid and unpaid labor and all of you know, keeping our lives going. So I want us to give ourselves some grace when we find it challenging to make the space that we need for community.

对。因为这并不完全是我们造成的。没错。朱莉，有一个关于时间使用的有趣调查显示，到2019年，美国人平均每周只花四小时与朋友相处，这在我看来时间并不算多。而且相比五年前下降了近40%。

Right. Because it's not entirely our doing. Exactly. Julie, there was an interesting survey on time use showing that by 2019, the average American was spending only four hours per week with friends, which doesn't seem like a whole lot of time to me. And there was an almost 40% decline from five years before that.

所以看起来我们一周或一天里要挤进太多事情，每周四小时已经是很多人能挤出的极限了。这甚至是在疫情之前的情况。所以我无法想象之后情况会好转。但你说得对，贝卡，时间有限而生活充满各种需求，这算是旧闻了，我知道。

So it seems like there's so much we're pressured to squeeze into a week or a day that four hours per week is all many people can even manage. And that was even before the pandemic too. So I can't imagine it's gotten better since then. But you're right, Becca, that like time is finite and life is full of demands, which is breaking news. I know.

我的意思是，虽然希望看到这些数据能上升，但无论如何，永远不可能总是做一个完美的朋友或完美的邻居。米娅说过，你需要停止试图在帮助他人方面拿A+。我感觉自己被精准吐槽了。因为有时候我确实会把社区建设当成家庭作业。尽管我在生活中更想关注关系而非个人成就，但那种努力工作和完美主义的价值观也会跟随我进入个人生活。

I mean, it would be nice to see those stats go up, but also no matter what, it's never gonna be possible to always be a perfect friend or a perfect neighbor. Mia said, you need to stop trying to get a a plus in helping people. And I felt very personally roasted by that. Because, like, sometimes I do think about community building as homework. Even though I wanna focus on relationships more than personal achievement in my life, those values of hard work and perfectionism, like, follow me into my personal life as well.

如果我没有达到为我和我爱的人创造完美乌托邦社区的理想，我就会在潜意识里给自己打低分。书呆子。你不是书呆子。你只是努力想掌控一切。比如我也会特意在周日晚上列出未来几周想做的事，然后尝试真正安排和朋友们社交的时间。

Where if I'm not living up to that ideal of creating a perfect utopian community for me and the people I love, then I'm, like, subconsciously giving myself a bad grade. A nerd. You're not a nerd. You're just you're trying to stay on top of it. Like, I make a point on Sunday evenings too to kind of write out a list of things I maybe wanna do in the next few weeks, and then I try to actually set up social time with my group of friends.

我其实和朋友们创办了一个小型邻里晚餐俱乐部，我们每个月都会举办主题晚餐。所以我喜欢这为我们创造了一种惯例，我知道我们有这个共同喜欢做的事，并且会尽力实现它。我喜欢你在周日晚上处理信件的习惯，很有《傲慢与偏见》的风格。米娅，我们一直在讨论社区如何在危机中相互支持。

I actually started a little neighborhood supper club with my friends where we do, like, themed dinners every month. So I actually like that it's kind of created this routine for us where I know that we have this thing that we like doing together and we'll do our best to make it happen. I like that you, like, attend to your correspondences on Sunday night. It's like very pride and prejudice of you. So Mia, we've been talking a lot about how, you know, communities show up for each other in a crisis.

我认为大多数人都确实愿意在危机中出现。但当我们不处于危机时，如何才能拥有那种相互依存的关系呢？

And I think most people are really ready to show up in a crisis. But how can we have that kind of interdependence when it's not a crisis?

没错。因为我们所有人都将经历危机。这几乎是必然的。我遇到过很多年长的白人男性，他们的妻子去世后，他们处于危机时刻，却无人可依。他们只有治疗师可以依靠。

Right. Because all of us are going to experience crisis. That's just like a given. I have met so many older white men who their wives die, and they're in this moment of crisis, and they have nobody. They have their therapist is who they have.

他们会开始随便找个人倾诉自己的遭遇，因为他们太孤独了。所以我认为这正是我们想要避免的情况。是的，部分原因在于他们把所有的社交联系都放在了妻子这一个篮子里。当那个人不复存在时，他们就如同漂泊无依了。

They will just start talking to anybody about what's going on with them because they are so lonely. So I think about that as, like, the opposite of what we want. Yeah. And part of it for them is that they have like, they've kind of put all of their social connection in the one basket of their wife. And when that person doesn't exist anymore, they're just, like, set adrift.

所以社区本质上当然需要由多人共同构建。但如果你在生活中感到缺乏社区感，作为个体，你可以做些什么来启动这个过程呢？

So community is, by its nature, something that has to be built by multiple people, of course. But if you are feeling a lack of community in your life, what can you as an individual do to kick start that process?

就像，人们得到的建议通常是去参加某个活动。虽然听起来有点老套，但确实很有道理，尤其是对成年人而言。对吧？我们不再有那种像学校那样的内置环境，能自然结识并建立友谊。

Like, the advice people get is often to, like, join a thing. And I'm like, that sounds lame in some way, but I'm like, it's also totally true, especially as adults. Right? We don't have that built in kind of, like, school situation where we're meeting people who we know we're building friendships with.

没错。我们有工作。

Right. We have work.

正是。但我觉得工作其实不应该是社交生活的中心，因为尽管老板可能那么说，但工作不是你的家人，而且你可能被解雇。人们当然会在那里建立真诚的关系，但那不应该成为你最重要的社交互动。所以我觉得可以参加读书俱乐部、公益活动，如果你有信仰，也可以加入信仰社区，因为你不可能坐在家里就认识人。我试过。

Exactly. Which, like, I feel like is not actually where you should be centering your social life because despite what your boss might say, your work is not your family, and you could get fired. People obviously build genuine relationships there, but I'm like, that should just not be your, like, most important social interaction. So I'm like, book clubs, activism, if you have some kind of faith, like a faith community because you're not going to meet people sitting at home. Like, I've tried.

那样行不通。我认为另一点是，有时我们认识别人，却不允许自己被他们了解。对吧？就像我们没有进行那种能让别人窥见我们内心生活的对话，没有真正告诉他们我们的近况。

It doesn't work. I think the other piece is that sometimes we know people, but we don't allow ourselves to be known by them. Right? Like, we're not having the kinds of conversations that allow people to, like, see into the interior of our lives. We're not really telling them what's going on with us.

我们停留在闲聊层面。

We stick to small talk.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？就像，这是一种，嗯，对你生活中发生的有趣事情的叙述，然后你说自己很好，而不是谈论你正在挣扎什么、你真实的感受，或者你正在纠结的事情——甚至可能是某种智力上的困惑。不一定非得是，你知道，痛苦的事情。但我们总是停留在这种表面层次，不让事情深入发展。

Right? Like, it is a, like, recounting of, like, what happened that was interesting in your life, and you say that you're good as opposed to what you're struggling with or how you're actually feeling or something that you're wrestling with that could even be, like, an intellectual thing. It doesn't have to be, like, you know, painful. But we keep things at this surface level, and we don't allow things to go deep.

你如何确定自己希望生活中拥有什么样的社群，然后将其带入现实世界？这似乎是个非常基本的问题，但实际去做又显得非常困难。

How do you figure out what you want a community to look like in your life and then bring that into the real world? It seems like a very basic question, but it also seems really hard to actually do it.

是的。其中一部分是，嗯，与自己安静相处。注意到你内心渴望某件事的那部分。我认为需要为它腾出空间，并注意你是如何看待那部分的——比如它是否让你焦虑，或者你希望它不存在，或者在你看来它以某种方式很美好。但最重要的是，嗯，坐下来找到你内心的那一部分。我认为你必须，嗯，询问它。

Yes. And part of it is, like, to get quiet with yourself. Like, notice the part of you that is longing for something. And I think to make some like, to make room for it and to to notice how you're thinking about that part, like, it's makes you anxious or if you wish it didn't exist or if it's beautiful in some way to you, but, like, to really just, like, sit and find that piece of you. And I think you have to, like, ask it.

对吧？它想要什么？你不是为建立社群制定战略计划。你不是，嗯，那样做的。你不可能在一天内完成。

Right? What is it that it wants? You don't make a strategic plan for building community. You don't, like, do it. You don't do it in a day.

所以这实际上关乎，嗯，看它会引导你去哪里，看它会引导你遇见谁。我想对我们许多人来说，生活中已经有人存在，但我们希望以某种方式让他们更亲近。我认为我们实际上在如何建立关系方面拥有比我们自以为的更多的知识和智慧。而我认为主要阻碍我们的不是不知道怎么做，而是我们是否愿意去做。若不让自己以某种方式被看见，就不可能拥有亲密的关系。

So then it's really about, like, seeing what that leads you to and seeing who it leads you to. I think for many of us, we have people in our lives, but we want to bring them closer in some way. I think that we actually have more knowledge and wisdom about how to build relationship than we give ourselves credit for. And I think primarily what gets in our way is not do we know what to do, but are we willing to do it? There is no way to have close relationship without allowing yourself to be seen in some way.

而且我认为我们很多人，我就是其中之一，非常害怕被了解。我们希望人们看到自己最好的版本，因为我们认为那是人们会爱的版本。嗯。那是人们会赞扬的版本。那是人们愿意围绕的版本。

And I think many of us, I am many of us, are terrified of being known. We want people to see the best version of ourself because we think that that's the version that people will love. Mhmm. That's the version that people will praise. That's the version that people will want to be around.

但没有人是那个版本的自己。我们都确实会做好事、表现良好，但我们也会，嗯，搞砸、不确定、缺乏安全感，并且经历艰难时刻。

But nobody is that version of themselves. We are all sure we do good and we do well, but we also, like, mess up and are unsure and insecure and have a hard time.

我感觉我听到的是，如果说社区建设有一个基本动作，那就是不隐藏。完全正确。是的。你知道吗，朱莉，自从疫情以来我注意到的一件事是，我现在的大部分社交活动都更加居家化了。我和我的社区建立了很多新传统，比如在不同人的家里做晚餐、电影之夜，或者那些过去以外出和在酒吧见面为中心的生活内容。

I feel like what I'm hearing you say is that if there's a basic action to community building, it is not hiding. Totally. Yes. You know, one thing I've noticed ever since the pandemic, Julie, is that most of my socializing is now a lot more homebound. I established a lot of new traditions with my community, like cooking dinner at different people's houses or movie nights or things in my life that used to be oriented around going out and meeting at bars.

当然那些外出活动也仍然存在。但我在与我圈子中的人的仪式上建立了一种新的方式。你呢？我的意思是，在制作这个播客的过程中，你有没有学到什么改变了你处理现有关系的方式，或者帮助你建立了新的关系？我真希望我能给你一个大的更新，能够展示我的个人成长。

And that still happens too. But I have established a sort of newness in the rituals I have with my circle of people. What about you? I mean, have you learned anything in the making of this podcast that has changed your approach to your existing relationships or helped you build new ones? I wish I had like a big update for you that would, you know, illustrate my personal growth.

但我不认为我和朋友或社区的关系真的发生了很大变化。我还没有和邻居成为最好的朋友。我觉得我更多注意到的是我思考自己与社区关系的方式上的模式。我感觉这就是我们想要做的事情。对吧？

But I don't think a lot has really changed with my friends or in my community. I'm not best friends with my neighbors yet. I think what I've noticed more is just like patterns in how I think about my relationship to my community. I feel like that's what we've set out to do. Right?

这有点像分解这些让人们更接近我们的步骤。最初的尴尬寒暄、一起闲逛、安排聚会、友谊中的艰难沟通，以及最终，如果你希望你的关系感觉更加相互而非交易性，你需要具备的那种无私的态度。我的意思是，我认为我们资本主义社会生活的另一个标志，对吧，就是那种不断优化和自我改进的压力。我也陷入了那种思维陷阱，想着，哦，如果我改变这个或那个，事情会变得更好。所以让我有点震惊的是，我的很多焦虑来自于感觉我需要通过自己的努力将我的社区优化到某种理想状态，这实际上是一种非常以自我为中心的方式。

It's sort of break down these steps of just bringing people closer to us. The initial awkward small talk, the hanging out, the scheduling the hangouts, the tough communication with friendships, and ultimately, the sort of selfless disposition that you need to have if you want your relationships to feel more mutual and not feel transactional. I mean, I think another hallmark of life in our capitalistic society, right, is the sort of pressure to optimize and self improve all the time. And I fall into that trap of thinking like, oh, things will be better if I change this or if I change that. So it kinda strikes me that a lot of my angst comes from feeling like I need to optimize my community towards some ideal through my own hard work, which is actually a very self centered way to think about it.

社区的意义在于它不仅仅由一个人控制。尽管为你的关系付出努力是好事，但你也必须放手，保持好奇心，看看实际存在什么，并享受现有的东西。我认为当你试图控制局面时，你最终可能会遇到我们桌子后面的短信情况，在打招呼之前，我以为先给你发信息确保你对这次互动感到舒服等等可能是个更好的主意。但是，你知道，像那样不完美、尴尬的开始实际上可以带来伟大的事情，因为我们在制作这个播客的过程中真的成了朋友。我们确实成了朋友。

The point of community is that it's not just in one individual's control. And as much as it is good to put effort into your relationships, you also have to just let go and be curious and see what's actually there and enjoy what's there. And I think when you do try to control the situation, you can end up with our messaging behind the desk situation where before saying hi, I thought it was maybe a better idea to message you first and make sure that you were comfortable with the interaction and all of that. But And, you know, an imperfect, awkward beginning like that can actually lead to something great because we've really become friends while making this podcast. We have.

你来过我家。比如，我们一起喝过很多次漫长、漫无边际、闲聊的饮料。你见过我的伴侣。你见过我的妹妹。你见过我的一群朋友。

You've been to my house. Like, we've had many long, rambly, chatty drinks together. You've met my partner. You've met my sister. You've met a bunch of my friends.

而且，你知道，其中一些是有意努力、计划和安排的结果。但也是放松过度思考、只是在一起的结果。所以我认为这是一种平衡，对吧，努力和轻松之间的平衡，或者努力，但不要到神经质的程度。这就是本季《如何与人交谈》的全部内容。这一集由我，贝卡·拉希德制作，由朱莉·贝克主持。

And, you know, some of that was the result of intentional effort and planning and scheduling. But it was also the result of, like, easing up on the overthinking and just being together. So I think it's a balance, right, of effort and and ease or effort, but not to, like, a neurotic degree. That's all for this season of How to Talk to People. This episode was produced by me, Becca Rashid, and hosted by Julie Beck.

编辑由乔斯林·弗兰克负责。事实核查由安娜·阿尔瓦拉多完成。工程与音效设计由罗布·斯默西亚克承担。特别感谢AC Valdez。感谢《大西洋月刊》的艺术团队：加布里埃拉·帕斯奎达、卡罗琳·史密斯和杰汉·杰拉尼。

Editing by Jocelyn Frank. Fact check by Anna Alvarado. Engineering and sound design by Rob Smersiak. Special thanks to AC Valdez. Thank you to the Atlantic's art team, Gabriela Pasqueda, Caroline Smith, and Jehan Jelani.

音频执行制作人是克劳丁·阿巴德。音频总编辑是安德烈娅·瓦尔德斯。我只是很喜欢你坐在书桌前写作的画面。是的。就像现在我应该

The executive producer of audio is Claudine Abade. The managing editor of audio is Andrea Valdez. I just liked the image of you, like, sitting down at your writing desk. Yes. Like and now I should

不去理会我的短信。亲爱的朱迪思。不。其实我就是这样发短信的。您被正式邀请。

not attend to my text. Dear Judith. No. That's actually how I text. You are formally invited.

其实我就是这样发短信的。

That is actually how I text.

周日晚上，我拿起手机，坐在沙发上，不停地刷啊刷。你真是个奥斯汀式的男主角，我太喜欢了。

Sunday evening, I take my phone, I sit on my couch, and I'm like, scroll, scroll, scroll. You're such you're such an Austen hero, and I love it.

好吧。如果你能听所有的书籍、文档、PDF和文章呢？嗯，你可以。通过11 Reader应用，你可以把任何内容转换成像这样自然的声音。所以今天就到你最喜欢的应用商店免费下载11 Reader吧。

Okay. So what if you could listen to all your books, docs, PDFs, and articles? Well, you can. With the 11 Reader app, you can turn anything into natural sounding voice like this one. So download 11 Reader for free on your favorite app store today.