如何与人交谈：我们对朋友负有什么责任？

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他举办了一场单身派对，结果一半的朋友最后一刻都爽约了。不。他当时在谈论这些朋友，其中有一个还住在他隔壁。我心里想，那些人根本不是朋友。这家伙是怎么定义友谊的？

He had a bachelor party, and half of his friends bailed last minute. No. And he was talking about these friends and how one of them lived next to him. And I thought in my head, those are not friends. How is this guy defining friendship?

这是轮到我上场了吗？是的。你可以上场

Is this when I get on my Yeah. You can get on

发表你的高见了。

your soapbox.

爽约这种事，我真的很讨厌。

So flaking. I hate it.

我觉得那种直接不出现的行为真的很不酷。

I think doing the thing where you just don't show up is really not cool.

如果你认为友谊会自然发生，那你最终会没有朋友的。嗨。

If you just think it happens organically, you're going to not have friends. Hi.

我是朱莉·贝克，《大西洋月刊》的高级编辑。我是贝卡·拉希德，《如何》系列的制作人。这里是《如何与人交谈》。贝卡，我知道这可能听起来很奇怪，暗示我们不知道如何与朋友交谈，还需要一个播客来告诉我们怎么做，但实际上友谊中存在许多常见的冲突和误解，而这些往往没有被说出来。友谊可以包含许多不同类型的关系，但这意味着朋友们有时会对友谊应该是什么样子有着相互冲突的期望。

I'm Julie Beck, a senior editor at The Atlantic. And I'm Becca Rashid, producer of the How To series. This is How To Talk To People. Becca, I know it might seem strange to suggest that we don't know how to talk to our friends and we need a podcast to tell us how, but actually there are a lot of common conflicts and misunderstandings in friendship that often go unspoken. Friendship can encompass so many different kinds of relationships, but that means that sometimes friends have clashing expectations of what the friendship should look like.

他们并不总是明确地谈论这一点。比如，临时爽约就是这种在友谊中可能积累起来的未言明的摩擦的一个典型例子。

And they don't always talk about that explicitly. Like, flaking is a prime example of this kind of unspoken friction that can build up in friendships.

临时爽约具体是什么让你感到困扰？不仅仅是

What is it about flaking in particular that bothers you? It's not

它让我烦恼，就像一般来说当人们爽约时那样。我想没有人喜欢被爽约。这种感觉是，它在我们的文化中已经变得非常正常化。它就像是社交生活的一个常规部分，你几乎不得不预期，很多时候如果你和别人制定了计划，那个计划很可能会改变或取消，你不能指望它一定会发生。

just that it annoys me, like, in a general sense when people flake. Like, I don't think anybody likes being flaked on. It's this sense that it has become so very normalized in our culture. And it's just like a routine part of social life that you actually almost have to expect. That like a good percentage of the time, if you make a plan with somebody, like that plan is going to change or get canceled, and you can't rely on it happening.

我觉得我们有点太快就认为，如果我不是处于最佳状态，对吧，为了见你，那我就不会出现。或者我们必须完全放松、完全舒适、完全充满，你知道，活力和精力才能完全地。和我们的朋友出去玩。完全理解，如果你失去了 childcare 而不得不退出，或者如果你生病了，我也不会生气。

I think we're a little too quick to be, like, if I am not in optimal tip top shape Right. To show up for you, then I won't show up. Or that we have to be, like, completely at ease, completely comfortable, completely like full of, you know, vim and vigor to Totally. Hang out with our friends. Totally get it and I'm not upset if like you lose your childcare and you have to back out or if you get sick.

事情会发生。生活就是这样，我认为我们都可以理解。我觉得让我烦恼的是，在很多社交圈子里，没有任何解释就取消似乎完全没问题。或者理由只是，我今天感觉不太好，或者我工作太累了。我认为这与我们高度重视保护自己的精力有关，就像保护自己的带宽和精力是最大的善一样，这几乎是其中的一部分。

Things happen. Life happens and I think we can all be understanding. I think what bugs me is that it feels just completely fine in a lot of social circles to just cancel with no explanation. Or the reason is just, I'm not feeling up to it today or I'm really tired from work. I think it's kind of part and parcel with a big premium that we put on protecting our energy as like the greatest good that you need to protect your own bandwidth and your own energy.

但我不知道我们是否应该以牺牲我们的关系为代价来保护我们的精力。

But I don't know if we should protect our energy at the cost of our relationships.

有那么一个时刻，你会觉得，好吧，你到底在不在乎这段友谊？

There's a certain point where it just feels like, okay, do do you care about this friendship?

我认为莉兹·波斯特可以帮我们解答这个问题。她是艾米丽·波斯特的曾孙女，艾米丽是著名的礼仪专家，大约一百年前写过知名的专栏。莉兹现在是艾米丽·波斯特研究所的联合主席，最近出版了《艾米丽·波斯特礼仪》的百年更新版。现在确实不缺约会建议专栏，甚至育儿建议也很多。

I think that Lizzie Post could help us with this. She is a great great granddaughter of Emily Post who is a famous etiquette expert who wrote, you know, a well known column about a hundred years ago. And Lizzie is now the co president of the Emily Post Institute. And she recently published the sort of updated Centennial edition of Emily Post's Etiquette. There's definitely no shortage of, like, dating advice columns or even, like, parenting advice out there.

但我们想找的是一些礼仪技巧或最佳实践，用于处理友谊中那些期望不太明确的棘手对话。这正是莉兹擅长的。我先问一个大的哲学问题。

But I think what we wanted to find was some more etiquette tips or best practices for managing those tricky conversations in friendship where expectations are less well defined. And that's Write Up Liz Exactly. I'm gonna start with a big philosophical question.

好的。

Okay.

你欠朋友什么？

What do you owe your friends?

我们都是独立的个体，就像在恋爱关系中，每个人的爱的语言可能不同。在友谊中，每个人的友谊语言也不同。所以一个人认为我们欠朋友的东西，另一个人可能觉得，不，那太荒谬了，绝对不行。所以我认为这是一个非常个人化的问题。

We are such individuals, and just like in relationships, your love language might be different. In friendships, your friendship language is different. So what one person thinks we owe a friend, another person might think, no, that's that's ridiculous. No way. So I think it's a very, very personal question.

这使得驾驭我们称之为友谊的这些关系变得更加困难，我们需要更加注意认识到，并非每个人都以与我们完全相同的方式看待友谊。

And that makes navigating those relationships that are our friendships a little bit more difficult and something that we wanna pay more attention to to recognize that not everyone sees friendship the exact same way that we do.

我注意到的一点是，现在爽约似乎变得完全正常化了。比如，如果我们今天约好下周五一起喝酒，等到周五那天，我就会觉得有必要发短信问你：'我们今天还照常喝酒吗？' 而你在前一天甚至当天发消息说'其实有点事'或者'今天不太想出门'也一点都不奇怪。你也有注意到这种现象吗？

Something that I have noticed is that it feels totally normalized to flake on plans. So for instance, if you and I make a plan today to get drinks next Friday, I'm gonna feel like when Friday comes around, I'm gonna feel a need to text you to ask, are we still on for drinks today? And it would not be strange for you to text me the day before or even day of to say, you know, actually something came up or I'm just not feeling up to it. Have you observed this too?

确实如此。我认为在某种程度上，如果身体不适或遇到紧急情况，比如突发肠胃炎，临时取消计划一直是情有可原的。这不算爽约，而是生活突发状况打乱了社交安排。

Absolutely. I think to a certain degree, it's always been the norm that if you don't feel well or if an emergency happens, if you've caught a stomach bug, understandable. That's not flaking out. That's life happening and getting in the way of fun social plans. Yeah.

但我确实觉得存在一个更广泛的趋势：人们越来越倾向于让'我此刻想不想去'这样的情绪因素来决定是否兑现承诺或履行计划。

But I do think that there is a larger trend of being much more willing to let the emotional do I feel like it play a factor in whether or not they end up committing to or actually following through on plans.

或者说，大家觉得约定不是铁板钉钉的，优先考虑的是'做对自己最有利的事'。

Or the yeah. The sense that the plans that we make are not set in stone or what takes precedence is like just needing to do what's best for you.

有些人甚至说这像是对友谊的侮辱——'现在和我见面听起来像是件苦差事'。确实有时候是这样，我们都能理解。大家都明白人的精力是有限的。

Well, and some people even say that it's like an insult to the friendship of getting together that it's like, oh, hanging out with me sounds like a chore for you right now. And there are times where that's true. We get it. Like, we all have learned that bandwidths, like, have capacities. I get it.

但我不认为我们需要每周都这样纵容自己。

I don't know that we need to be leaning into that, like, every week.

是啊。有人还说我在这方面太老古板了。我记得有次筹备派对时向别人抱怨，说因为答应邀请的人有一半都不会到场，我根本没法计划该买多少食物。

Yeah. And, I mean, I've been told that I am too curmudgeonly about this. Like, I remember planning a party and sort of complaining to to someone about how I couldn't really plan, like, how much food to buy or anything because half of the people who responded yes to the invite wouldn't show up.

是的。

Yep.

那个人告诉我，我这样想是不合理的。什么？说我需要接受并考虑到这就是社交生活的一部分。

And the person told me that I was being unreasonable. What? That I needed to accept and account for the fact that this is just part of social life.

如果朋友告诉我，我应该预期50%答应来参加派对的宾客名单实际上不会出现，我是不会高兴的。我会让朋友们知道。就像我们讨论待客风格和偏好时，我的意思是，这些是朋友之间可以谈论的事情。而且你也可以做自己，你在创造自己的待客风格。

I would not have been pleased if I had been told that by a friend to just expect that 50% of my guest list isn't gonna show up for a party that they said they would come to. I would let friends know. Like, as we talk about entertaining styles and preferences, I mean, are things friends can talk about. And you also get to be you. You're creating your own entertaining style.

你在这个世界上创造着自己的成年生活。你可能会发现，在友谊中你真正珍视的是培养一群真正信守计划的朋友。

You're creating your own adult life in this world. And it might be something that you find you really value in friendship is cultivating a group of friends who really stick to their plans.

是的。其中一部分可能源于内心深处的那种童年恐惧，比如举办派对却没人来的那种恐惧。对吧？

Yeah. Some of it has to be just sort of the deep seated, like childhood fear of throwing a party and nobody comes. Right?

我也有那种恐惧。

I have that too.

没错。我的意思是，如果某件事经常发生，那它不仅仅是不礼貌，而是事情本就如此，我们需要学会应对吗？

Yes. I mean, if something happens often enough, is it just not rude, but just the way that things are and we need to just deal with it?

这是个很好的问题。对我来说，这件事不够理想的地方在于，世界上有足够多像你我这样的人并不欣赏这种行为，不认为这是个好趋势。你懂我的意思吗？这种承诺了事情却在最后一刻毫无理由地取消，仅仅是因为你虽然身体没问题但就是不太想去的做法。

That's a great question. The place where this one doesn't check that box for me is that there's enough people like you and me out in the world who don't appreciate this, who don't see this as a good trend. You know what I mean? This idea of committing to things and canceling very last minute for effectively no reason other than just not totally feeling up to it even though there's nothing wrong with you.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为这件事让很多人感到沮丧，就像过去二十年、三十年、四十年、五十年——我想甚至我的曾曾祖母都在写这件事。所以我们可以说七十年来，人们一直对不认真回复邀请函的现象感到恼火。总会有几个朋友无论什么情况都会迟到很久，总会有那个最可能取消计划的人，也总会有那个最可能每次都到场的人，你知道的，就是最可能主动提出带点什么来的那个人。

I think that this is something that's frustrating a lot of people the same way people for a good twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, I think even my great great grandmother was writing about it. So we're gonna go ahead and say seventy years people have been annoyed at the fact that people don't RSVP well. There's always gonna be a couple of friends who no matter what show up really late. There's always gonna be someone who's your most likely to cancel. There's also always gonna be the person most likely to always show up, you know, the person most likely to offer to bring something.

带点什么

Something

是啊。

Yeah.

或者给你惊喜，你知道的，就像也有好的一面存在。

Or to surprise you, you know, like there's there's the good stuff too.

没错。我们应该给那些人颁个奖章。

Yeah. We we should give those people a medal.

他们有金星吗？

They did they have gold stars.

贝卡，我之前看过一项非常有趣的研究，研究人员询问人们在面对朋友和恋人之间的不同冲突时会如何应对。一般来说，人们预期会主动解决与恋人间的问题，会去沟通。你知道，就像常说的，永远不要带着怒气入睡。但他们发现友谊中更多存在一种被动文化，人们更倾向于什么都不说，只是希望问题自行消失，或者悄悄地在友谊中拉开一些距离，而不是去谈论问题。

Becca, there was a really interesting study that I saw a while back where the researchers asked people how they would approach different conflicts with friends versus with a romantic partner. And generally, like, people expected that you would actively address a problem with a romantic partner. You would talk about it. You know, they say, like, never go to bed angry. But they found that there was more of a culture of passivity in friendships, that people were more likely to say nothing and just kinda hope the issue went away on its own or kind of quietly put some distance in the friendship rather than talking about a problem.

我在友谊中的被动态度源于一种恐惧，担心过于直接会显得咄咄逼人或要求太多。这让我对与朋友，尤其是在成年后，建立更深连接的渴望感觉起来像是 needy（ needy 指 needy，此处保留英文并加注中文解释“ needy 指 needy”）、幼稚，有时甚至有点不合适或越界。

Passivity in my own approach to friendships comes from a fear that being too direct may come across as aggressive or asking for too much. It makes my desire for a deeper connection with friends, especially in adulthood, feel needy or childish or sometimes even a bit inappropriate or like overstepping.

好的。那我们能谈谈如何实际处理这些情况吗？比如，如果一个朋友放我鸽子，我该怎么回应？现在感觉我唯一的选择就是简单地说，好吧，我理解。

Okay. So can we talk about how to practically handle these situations? Like, if a friend flakes on me, how should I respond? Right now, feel like my only option is to just say, okay, I understand.

我也常常无奈地选择礼貌接受。我认为这是那种在当下你确实能做的最好的事情，因为如果他们取消得非常 last minute（ last minute 指 last minute，此处保留英文并加注中文解释“ last minute 指 last minute”），比如在派对当天，你正忙着做事，还要 focus（ focus 指 focus，此处保留英文并加注中文解释“ focus 指 focus”）其他客人。所以在某些方面，采取那种礼仪 high road（ high road 指 high road，此处保留英文并加注中文解释“ high road 指 high road”）路线会让你的生活更轻松，说，哦，你知道，听到这个消息我真的很遗憾。如果你改变主意，随时欢迎来。你知道，尤其是如果只是‘我就是不想来’的情况。嘿，如果你一小时后恢复状态 ready（ ready 指 ready，此处保留英文并加注中文解释“ ready 指 ready”）来了，就过来吧。

I often feel resigned to polite acceptance as well. I think that this is one of those things where in the moment, that really is the best thing you can do because if they're canceling really last minute, like within the day of the party, you've got things you're busy doing, and you've got other guests that you have to focus So in some ways, it makes your own life easier to take that kind of etiquette high road route and say, oh, you know, I'm really sorry to hear that. If you change your mind, feel free to come. You know, especially if it's that I just don't feel like it. You know, hey, if you find after an hour you've rebounded and you're ready to come, come on over.

我的意思是，有没有一种方式可以 respectful（ respectful 指 respectful，此处保留英文并加注中文解释“ respectful 指 respectful”）地表达这让你困扰，或者你 even（ even 指 even，此处保留英文并加注中文解释“ even 指 even”）推荐这样做吗？

I mean, is there a way to respectfully say that it bothers you or would you even recommend doing that?

这件事我可能会在另一个时间做。它可能是那种你找到一个好时机谈论你们友谊的事情。时机自然会 present（ present 指 present，此处保留英文并加注中文解释“ present 指 present”）出来，然后你可以说，嘿，你知道，我得 honest（ honest 指 honest，此处保留英文并加注中文解释“ honest 指 honest”），那 actually（ actually 指 actually，此处保留英文并加注中文解释“ actually 指 actually”）是我会承认的事情。我…当那种情况发生时，我感到 hurt（ hurt 指 hurt，此处保留英文并加注中文解释“ hurt 指 hurt”）。

This is something that I might do at a different time. It might be one of those things where you find a good moment where you're talking about your friendship. A moment will present itself and you can say, hey, you know, I gotta be honest, that's actually something that I will cop to. I I feel hurt when that happens.

这种‘如果不行也没关系’的文化。这是我经常听到并且自己也经常使用，然后又会讨厌自己这么说的一个说法。你知道吗，感觉向朋友求助或者让他们以某种方式支持我们，似乎很困难或者是一种负担。所以，丽兹，你介意在我出城的时候帮我照看一下我的猫吗？但如果不行也没关系。就是立刻给你一个推脱的借口？

This sort of no worries if not culture. This is a phrase that I hear a lot and find myself using and then hate myself for using a lot, which is it, you know, it feels hard or burdensome to ask friends for help or ask them to show up for us in some type of way. So, Lizzie, would you mind, like, pet sitting my cat while I'm out of town? But no worries if not. So just immediately giving you an out?

是的。是的。

Yeah. Yeah.

这感觉像是一种礼节，因为我觉得自己很有礼貌且谦逊，但礼貌真的等同于不向彼此提出任何要求吗？

It feels like an etiquette thing because it feels like I'm being polite and deferential, but is being polite really equal to not asking each other for anything?

这更多是承认这个人可能真的很想帮你一个忙、支持你，而你想让他们知道如果他们真的做不到也没关系。我认为这很大程度上是为了减轻人们的压力，而我觉得这是礼貌的。比如，我能从中看到礼貌的一面。

It's more so acknowledging that this person might really want to do you a favor and be there for you, and you want to let them know it's truly okay if they can't. I think a lot of that is about removing pressure for people, and that I think is polite. Like, I can find politeness in that.

是的。你知道吗？是的。这很看情况。也许我刚分手了。

Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's very situational. Maybe I just got broken up with.

我很难过，然后我说，丽兹，你能和我聊聊吗？但如果不行也没关系。但其实，如果不行的话还是有些在意的。你知道吗？我也理解为什么你会觉得支持朋友是一种负担。

I'm so upset, and I'm like, Lizzie, can you please talk? But no worries if not. But then, like, there are some worries if not. You know? I also understand why you would think of showing up for a friend as a burden.

我认为很大程度上确实可能是负担。如果你自己事情很多，如果你正在经历很多事情，有时候再加上别人的需求——这个人不是伴侣，不是孩子，不是父母，你知道，他们不和你住在一起——这可能会让你觉得是你没有能力去做的事。但同时，当你感觉自己一无所有时，尝试付出和慷慨的那一刻，你会发现你实际上仍然有储备，这很神奇。我认为现代友谊中我真正喜欢的一点是，愿意去询问是否可以依靠某人。我觉得这并不总是过去友谊的一部分。

I think a lot of it is that it can be. If you have a lot going on, if you're going through a lot, sometimes adding that moment of someone else's need that isn't a partner, that isn't a child, that isn't a parent, you know, they don't live with you, that it can feel like something you don't have the capacity to do. At the same time, it's amazing to see what you actually still have in your reserves when you attempt a moment of giving and generosity when you feel like you don't have anything. I think what I really like about modern friendships is the willingness to ask if it would be okay to lean on someone. That's something I don't always think has been a part of things.

我不知道在艾米丽的时代，当事情真的很难的时候，你们能像我们现在这样依赖朋友的程度有多少。

I don't know that in Emily's day, when things were really hard, just how much you got to lean into a friend the way we lean into them now.

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朱莉，我觉得我们和莉齐的谈话中让我印象深刻的是，美国主流文化中的个人主义和友谊的自愿性之间的这种平衡很难把握，而且很难知道该向朋友要求什么。

I think what stuck out to me, Julie, about our conversation with Lizzie is how this balance of sort of the American mainstream culture of individualism and the voluntary nature of friendship is a tough thing to balance, and it's hard to know what to ask of our friends.

完全同意。我的意思是，友谊这件事，对吧，它纯粹是完全由选择定义的。所以我们的友谊是什么样子，我们对彼此有什么义务，这些都是我们作为朋友必须在每一段友谊中决定的。礼仪可以是一个非常有用的框架，用来思考这个或那个具体情况，但我认为很多人可以从更广泛、更宏大的对话中受益，讨论他们友谊的基础问题。比如，这段友谊有多亲密？

Totally. I mean, the thing about friendship, right, is that it's purely and entirely defined by choice. So what our friendship looks like and what obligations we put onto each other are things that we as friends have to decide within every single friendship. And etiquette can be a really helpful framework for thinking through this or that specific situation, but I think a lot of people could benefit from broader, bigger conversations about the foundational issues of their friendships. Like, how intimate is this friendship?

我们希望在彼此的生活中扮演什么角色？我们对彼此有什么期望？比如，朋友之所以是朋友，是因为他们选择成为朋友，而不是因为他们有结婚证，也不是因为某人生了某人。你选择成为朋友，所以你选择为彼此出现。当我们生活在这样一个个人主义的文化中，就像你说的，我们可能会默认那种‘你做你的，我们只是在力所能及的时候互相给予’。

What do we want our role in each other's lives to be? What do we expect from each other? Like, friends are friends because they choose to be, not because they got a marriage license, not because somebody gave birth to somebody. You choose to be friends, and so you choose to show up for each other. And when we live in a culture that's so individualistic, like you said, we can default to that kind of you do you, and we'll just give each other what we can, when we can.

对彼此有任何形式的理解义务都可能很难。如果你期望的和你的朋友期望的不同，仅仅就这段友谊是什么以及我们对彼此的期望水平达成一致，可能会很棘手。

Having any sort of understood obligation to one another can be hard. If you're expecting something different than your friend is expecting, just getting on the same page about what this friendship is and the level of expectation that we have of each other, it can be tricky.

我有一个朋友从墨西哥回来，她大约午夜时分到达机场。

I had a friend who was coming back from Mexico and she was arriving the airport at like midnight.

玛丽莎·佛朗哥是一位心理学家，也是《柏拉图式》这本书的作者。

Marissa Franco is a psychologist and the author of the book Platonic.

这是我真的很想亲近的一个朋友。我知道，你知道，在别人需要的时候主动帮忙是拉近关系的好方法。

And this is a friend I really wanted to get closer to. And I know that, you know, going out of your way to help someone in a time would be a great way to get closer to someone.

好建议。

Hot tip.

是啊，好建议。但我心想，天啊，我讨厌熬夜。我是个早起的人。

Yeah. Hot tip. But I'm like, oh my gosh. I hate staying up late. I'm a morning person.

我大概10点半就睡觉了。我要去接她吗？

I go to sleep at like 10:30. Do I wanna pick her up?

我得暂停一下和玛丽莎·佛朗哥的对话，因为在聊天时，我想到了莉齐·波斯特的礼仪建议。其实我觉得有时候我们对朋友可能太过礼貌了。比如我们可能一开始就犹豫要不要开口请对方来机场接机。我认为这种过度的礼貌反而会阻碍我们建立更深厚的友谊。针对机场这个例子，玛丽莎提供了一个直截了当的框架来帮助你自己做出决定。

I've gotta pause this conversation I was having with Marissa Franco for a second because while we were talking, I found myself thinking about Lizzie Post's etiquette advice. And I actually think that sometimes we can be too polite to our friends. Like maybe we're hesitant to even ask in the first place whether they can pick us up at the airport. And that sort of over politeness, I think can hold us back from having deeper friendships. And with her airport example, Marissa offered a sort of straightforward framework for figuring that out for yourself.

朱莉，我真的不得不问自己，

And Julie, I literally had to ask myself,

我会为浪漫伴侣这样做吗？因为浪漫伴侣已经垄断了我大脑中与深厚爱情相关的联想。所以我不得不问自己这个问题。当我问自己时，我说，是的。我会去接她。

would I do this for a romantic partner? Because of the ways romantic partners have monopolized what my brain associates with, like, deep love. So I had to ask myself that question. And when I did, I said, yeah. I would pick her up.

我会去机场接我的浪漫伴侣。

I would pick up a romantic partner at the airport.

玛丽莎是一个对我们文化如何鼓励我们将友谊置于优先级列表末尾进行了深刻思考的人。这可能导致我们对朋友过分礼貌，好像我们在讨论双方真正想要什么之前就把自己放在了最后。她和我讨论了很多关于如果你希望友谊在生活中占据更中心位置时可能出现的沟通挑战。

Marissa is someone who's thought really deeply about how our culture encourages us to put friendships last on the priority list. And that can lead to us being weirdly overly polite to our friends like we're putting ourselves last before even talking about whether that's what we both really want. She and I talked a lot about the communication challenges that can happen if you want friendships to be more central in your life.

我们现有的友谊模式是如此单薄，比以往任何时候都感觉更加单薄，以至于它只是我们每月一起去参加快乐时光的那个人。

The model of friendship that we have is just so threadbare, more threadbare than it feels like it's ever been, that it's just this is just someone who we go to once a month happy hours with.

是的。我觉得很有趣的是，友谊以一种其他关系所没有的灵活性来定义。朋友在你生活中没有必须扮演的特定角色。如果我向别人介绍你时说，这是我的朋友玛丽莎，这可能意味着任何事情——从我们出生那天就认识且从未分开过，到我们有时在工作中一起喝咖啡。每段友谊都是不同的，必须由朋友自己来设计。

Yeah. It's so interesting to me to see the way that friendship is defined by flexibility in a way that no other relationship is. There's no specific role a friend has to play in your life. If I introduce you to somebody and I say, this is my friend Marissa, that could mean anything from we've known each other since the day we were born and have never been apart to, oh, we get coffee at work sometimes. Every friendship is different, and it has to be designed by the friends themselves.

当然，这种无限的可能性是它的优势，但你认为它是否也会让人感到不知所措？

And, of course, that endless possibility is a strength of it, but do you think it can also be overwhelming to people?

是的。绝对是两者兼有。这是我喜爱友谊的一点，因为就像，无论我有什么需求，我都可以通过友谊来满足。比如，我们可以成为柏拉图式的生活伴侣，或者我们一年聚会两次。但这种灵活性的问题在于，我认为很多时候友谊中的冲突是因为这是我的友谊理解与你的理解之间的差异。

Yeah. Definitely both things. It's something that I love about friendship because it's like, whatever need I have, I can get met through friendship. Like, we could be platonic life partners, or we could hang out twice a year. But the slipperiness of that is that I think a lot of the times there's conflict in friendship because this is my understanding of friendship versus yours.

你觉得友谊是微不足道的，不需要投入太多精力，只要保持好心情就好。而我认为，友谊对我来说是深厚、持久且深刻的关系。如果我们对友谊的看法如此不同，在我真正需要你的时候你不会出现，你也不会期待我生气，因为如果我抱有你的期望，我可能就不会生气了。我和一个朋友的丈夫聊天，他办了个单身派对，结果他一半的朋友在最后一刻放了他鸽子。每个人原本都要付一千美元。

You're like friendship is trivial and not something to put a lot of effort in and good vibes only. And I'm like, friendships are deep and sustaining and profound relationships for me. And if we have that different view of friendship, you're not gonna show up at times when I really need you and you're not gonna expect me to get upset because if I had your expectation, I might not have gotten upset. I was talking to a friend's husband and he had a bachelor party and half of his friends bailed last minute on his own bachelor party. Everyone had to pay a thousand dollars.

不，是的，太糟糕了。花一千美元去参加他两晚的单身派对，他谈到这些朋友，其中有一个还住在他隔壁。我心里想，那些人根本不是朋友。

No. Yeah. Awful. A thousand dollars to go to his bachelor party for like two nights and he was talking about these friends and how one of them lived next to him. And I thought in my head, those are not friends.

这家伙是怎么定义友谊的？那可不是我定义友谊的方式。这让我想到了好朋友和好伙伴之间的区别。好伙伴，我喜欢你这个人，我们在一起很开心。

How is this guy defining friendship? Like that is not how I define friendship. And so that made me think of the difference between good friend versus good company. Good company, I like you as a person. We enjoy our time together.

我们有很好的交谈。好朋友不是你投资的对象，而是一种承诺。是我在你需要的时候出现，是我有时可能会做一些不方便自己的事，因为我考虑到这对你有多重要。

We have good conversations. Good friendship, a friend isn't someone you invest in. It is a commitment. It is I'm showing up in your times of need. It is I'm doing things that sometimes might inconvenience me because I'm thinking about how much they'll mean to you.

是我会庆祝你的成功，是我会尽力兑现我说过的话，是我基本上在考虑你，考虑你的需求。我认为在我们很多文化中，我们停留在好伙伴的层面，还没有达到好朋友的境界。

It is, I'm gonna celebrate your successes. It's, I'm gonna follow through with what I say that I will do to the extent possible. It's, I'm basically considering you and I'm considering your needs. And I think in a lot of our culture, we're stuck on good company and we haven't gotten to good friendship.

当友谊是一种自愿的关系时，你如何设定这些期望？

How do you set those expectations in a friendship when it is a voluntary relationship?

通过沟通。比如，我不得不告诉朋友，我希望你多联系我。我注意到通常是我在主动联系。你愿意这样做吗？这需要冒点风险，对吧？

With communication. Like, I've had to tell friends, for example, I would love to hear from you more. I noticed I'm often the one here reaching out. Would you be open to that? And it's taking that risk, right?

因为这确实有风险。是的。因为这可能导致对方觉得，这个人期望太高了，我要保持距离。但也可能让他们觉得，是的，我会出现，我会重新投入，我要确保玛丽莎感觉这是一段相互回应的友谊。

Because it is a risk. Yeah. Because that could lead them to say, this person expects too much. I'm a back away. But it could also lead them to say, yeah, I'm gonna show up, and I'm gonna reinvest, and I'm gonna make sure Marissa feels like she's in a reciprocal friendship.

也可以更直接地谈论这件事。比如我和一些朋友去了一次静修活动。大概是一系列关于我们作为朋友如何互相支持的问题轮流讨论。其中一个问题是，你喜欢朋友临时突然到你家来吗？

It's also okay to just talk about it in a more upfront way. Like I went on a retreat with some friends. I guess it was like a series of questions that went around in regards to like, how do we support each other as friends? And one of the questions was like, do you like when friends show up last minute at your house?

这是个

It's a

很有帮助的问题，对吧？比如，是的，有时候我在你家附近。我该不该联系你呢？

helpful question to ask, you know? Like Yeah. Sometimes I'm in your neighborhood. I'm should I reach out? Should I not?

如果我不问，我可能会假设不行，然后就错过了一个联系的机会。所以是的。

If I don't ask, I might assume no, and then there's a missed opportunity to connect. So yeah.

临时突然到访，首先，我觉得这总是发生在电视节目里。对吧？比如《橘子郡男孩》，他们总是直接走到对方家里进行严肃的谈话，从不打电话说我要过来了。所以感觉很不现实。但同时，我确实有个朋友住在附近，她有时会发短信说，我正经过你家。

The showing up last minute, well, first of all, I feel like that's something that always happens on TV shows. Right? Like, The OC, they were always just just walking over to each other's house to have a serious conversation without ever, like, calling to say I'm coming over. And so it feels very unrealistic. And at the same time, I do have a friend who lives around the corner who will sometimes text me like, I'm walking by your place.

你想下来吗？我观察到的一点是，人们在和朋友互动时有时会有一种奇怪的礼貌或正式感。例如，你知道，我们发短信约定通话时间，而不是直接打电话。我们是在避免给对方添麻烦吗？为什么这会成为一个如此大的担忧呢？

Do you wanna come down? I think something that I've observed is a sort of strange politeness or formality in the way that people sometimes interact with their friends. For example, you know, we text to set up a time to call instead of just calling. Are we just avoiding inconveniencing each other? Why would that be such a worry?

是的。我认为很多时候我们害怕打扰别人，害怕给别人添负担，但有时我们最大的负担反而是沉默，因为我们想表现得礼貌。是的，人们觉得这是不打扰对方，是在尊重或理解朋友的界限，但问题是我们并没有真正询问过这些界限是什么。我经常看到的情况是，人们更多是从'这个朋友不想听到我的消息'或'我会成为朋友的负担'的角度出发，所以少联系反而成了善意的举动。

Yeah. I think a lot of the times we fear imposing. We fear burdening people, but the biggest burden we place can sometimes be our silence because we want it to be polite. And yeah, I think people think this is me not imposing, this is me trying to respect or understand a friend's boundaries, but the thing is we don't actually ask what they are. What I tend to see is it's more from a place of this friend doesn't wanna hear from me or this friend will be burdened by me, so it's the kind act for me to do less.

当朋友经历悲痛时我就不去联系他们，因为他们可能想要独处的时间，对吧？我认为，关于交朋友我经常谈到的一点是，要假设别人喜欢你，因为这会引发一系列行为——热情、开放——让这个假设更可能成真。我也认为，我们越假设别人喜欢我们，与他们的亲密感就越强。所以越是这样假设，就越会觉得'他们肯定想接到我的电话'，我都不需要特意安排时间打电话。

Let me not reach out when they're going through all this grief because they probably want their time alone, you know? What I think, so one thing that I always talk about with making friends is assume people like you because it's gonna trigger a set of behaviors, warmth, openness, that is gonna make that more likely to be true. I also think the more we assume people like us, the more intimacy that we have with them. So the more we assume, they're just gonna wanna hear from me on the phone. I don't have to set up this time to call.

我假设你是爱我的。我教一门关于孤独的课程。我的一个学生说：'我在想，如果我半夜要去医院，我能打电话给谁？'我就问他：'如果你交的朋友半夜因为需要帮助去医院而联系你，你会怎么想？'他说：'我会感到非常荣幸他们选择了我。'

I'm assuming that you love me. I teach a class on loneliness. And one of my students is like, I just think if I had to go to the hospital in the middle of the night, like, who could I call? And I'm like, how would you feel if one of the friends that you made reached out to you in the middle of the night because they needed help with going to the hospital? He says, I would feel totally honored that they picked me.

问题在于，当我们用有缺陷的大脑预测自己给人的印象时，往往比实际情况更加悲观和消极，尤其是在向朋友求助时。我会非常紧张，然后我会做这个练习：如果这个朋友向我提出同样的请求，我会怎么想？那可能才是更准确的结果？

And the problem is when it comes to our glitchy brains, when we're predicting how we come off, we tend to be a lot more cynical and negative than what is the truth, especially with asking for help from friends. I get really nervous about it, and I take myself through that exercise where I'm like, well, what if this friend asked me for the same thing? How would I feel? That's probably the more accurate outcome?

是的。是不是有种感觉，我们觉得需要尊重朋友生活中发生的一切事情，以至于我们在朋友可能忽视我们之前，就先把自己放在了次要位置？

Yeah. Is there a sense that we feel like we need to be deferential to everything else that our friends have going on in their lives to the degree that we deprioritize ourselves before they have a chance to deprioritize us.

我认为没错。你知道，有个理论基本上认为我们在'保护自己'和'保护关系'两个极点之间运作。很多人经常处于通过不联系、过度顺从、不展现脆弱、不主动来保护自己的状态，但他们往往没有意识到所有这些自我保护都是有代价的，那就是你的人际关系。

I think that's right. You know, there is this theory basically arguing that we operate along two poles of protecting ourselves and protecting the relationship. And there's a lot of people who are often in this place of protecting themselves by not reaching out and being overly deferential, not being vulnerable, not initiating, but they don't often realize that there's a cost to all that self protection, which is your relationships.

我觉得在某种程度上，我们似乎应该接受朋友所能提供的一切，认为最高价值或最真实的真理是每个人都必须做对自己最有利的事。我觉得这非常'星条旗美国'。不知道其他地方是否也这样。但也许你能解释一下什么是个人主义界限，以及你认为过于自我关注的界限是什么样的？有例子吗？

I feel like to some degree, there's a feeling that we're supposed to just accept whatever it is that our friends are able to offer, that the highest value or the truest truth is that everybody needs to do what's best for themselves. And I think that's so Stars and Stripes American. I don't know if it's that way everywhere. But I think maybe it would be helpful if you can explain what individualistic boundaries are and what the boundaries you're seeing that you think are overly self focused look like. Do you have examples?

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。我认为以自我为中心的边界从宏观上看是这样的：无论你的需求是什么，我都要满足自己的需求。这看起来就像是，嘿，你知道，如果你晚上10点打电话给我，情绪很崩溃，我不会接。或者，嘿，我现在不需要为你腾出时间，因为我这段时间非常非常忙。对我来说，设定边界是一种共同的行为。就像我为自己设定这个边界，以便能够长期投资于我们的友谊，不会感到筋疲力尽，而且我在设定这个边界时会考虑你的需求，这几乎就像是我设定这个边界的同时也提供一个替代方案。

Yeah. I think the self focused boundaries look like in a sort of overarching way, I'm gonna fulfill my needs no matter what your needs are, which looks like, hey, you know, if you call me really upset at 10PM, I'm not going to answer. Or hey, like I don't need to make time for you because at this time in my life I'm very very busy. To me, setting a boundary is a communal act. It's like I set this boundary for myself so I can invest in our friendship in the long term and not get burnt out and it's I'm gonna consider your needs when I set this boundary, and it's almost like I'm gonna set this boundary and also offer an offering.

比如，哦，我那个时候没空聊天。换个时间怎么样？或者甚至像，你知道，我没空去参加那个，但我支持你，我为你加油。有时候仅仅是肯定的表达就是一种替代方案。

Like, oh, I'm not free to talk at that time. What about another time? Or even like, you know, I'm not free to come to that, but I'm rooting for you and I'm supporting you. Sometimes it's just the affirmation that's the offering.

你觉得为什么这种类型的边界会变得流行？这是不是一种自我照顾的感觉，就像是我需要先戴上自己的氧气面罩，然后才能帮你戴上的那种自我照顾？

Do you have a sense of why you think that is a genre of boundaries that's become popular? Is it sort of self care, the sense that this is self care and I need to put my own oxygen mask on before I can put on yours?

是的。我想对于很多友谊行为来说，存在一种情感上的不一致性。我的意思是，你对这个行为的体验与你的朋友非常不同，而这种不同你并不总是能察觉到。所以你可能会设定这个边界，想着，哦，我真的很忙，这对我有好处。但当你的朋友接收到这个边界时，他们感觉像是，我好孤独，在我真的非常需要有人陪伴的时刻，我却没有人。所以这就像是我们两个情感世界在那一刻出现了脱节，因为如果我们只考虑自己的现实，这确实很有道理。

Yeah. I think about for a lot of, like, friendship behaviors, there's a emotional incongruency. What I mean is that your experience of this act is very different from your friends in a way that you're not always privy to. So you might set this boundary thinking about, oh, I'm really busy and this is gonna benefit me, But when your friend receives that boundary, they're feeling like, I'm so alone and I have no one in this moment where I really, really need someone. And so there's just this, I guess, this disconnect between our two emotional worlds in that moment Because if we're only thinking about our reality, it makes a lot of sense.

但当我们考虑到我们的共同现实，即我的现实和对方的现实时，我们可能会意识到，即使这个行为对我们有益，但对朋友造成的代价却大得多。你知道，当你拥有一段健康的关系时，你会开始将他们纳入自我的感知中。所以当你愿意完全让朋友失望和沮丧来满足自己的需求时，就会出现一种脱节。是的。这就是我所说的那些个人主义边界，就像是，我要100%满足我的需求，即使你的需求0%都得不到满足。

But when we think about our co realities, our reality and the other person's reality, then we might realize that even if this act benefits us, the costs for our friend are far greater. You know, when you have a healthy relationship, what happens is you begin to include them in your sense of self. So there's a disconnect happening when you're willing to completely upset and let down your friend to meet your own needs. Yeah. And that's kind of what I'm referring to with these individualistic boundaries, which is like, I'm gonna get a 100% of my needs met even if 0% of your needs are going to be met.

共同边界是为了保护关系。个人主义边界是为了保护自己。

The communal boundary is to protect the relationship. The individualistic boundary is to protect yourself.

所以玛丽莎，我报道友谊这个话题已经很久了。当我们讨论如何结交朋友以及如何维持这些友谊时，我觉得对话往往停留在‘友谊需要付出努力’这种非常简单的陈词滥调上。这种说法既模糊又笼统，但我也在想，从你作为心理学家的角度来看，你是否认为将友谊视为劳动这种说法存在什么问题。

So Marissa, I've been reporting on friendship for a long time. And when we're discussing kind of how do we make friends and how do we maintain those friendships, I feel like the conversation often stops at this very simplistic platitude of friendship takes work. And that's very vague and general, but I'm also wondering with your perspective as a psychologist, whether you see anything kinda dicey about suggesting that friendship is labor.

我认为是的。我的意思是，我们对‘工作’这个词的所有联想是什么？比如负面的，是我们必须做的事情，是需要得到补偿才能做的事情。我认为当我们用这些资本主义的术语来描述友谊时，我们不仅应用了这个词，还附加了与之相关的联想网络，所有那些联想的包袱。所以我更喜欢‘友谊需要付出努力’而不是‘友谊需要工作’的说法。

I think so. I mean, what are all our associations with work? Like negative, something that we have to do, something that we need to get compensated for to be able to do. And I think when we use those capitalistic terms for friendship, we not only are applying that term but the web of associations that we add to that term, the baggage of all of those associations. So I like the idea of friendship taking effort rather than friendship taking work.

我想表达的是，在友谊中我们会遇到不便，在友谊中我们会做一些不想做的事情，在友谊中我们必须主动付出、采取主动、积极主动等等。我认为这些都属于努力的范畴。但当我们说‘工作’时，几乎就像是在说我们不想做的事情。

What I want to convey is that in friendship we're gonna be inconvenienced, in friendship we're gonna do things that we don't want to do, in friendship we are going to have to go out of our way and take initiative and be proactive and all of those things. And I think those all fit into the realm of effort. But when we say work, it's almost like it's something that we don't want.

我的意思是，我认为大多数人的意图通常并不坏。只是我们文化中的一些规范似乎在不知不觉中引导我们破坏我们的友谊，如果你真的想在生活中优先考虑友谊，就会感觉有点像逆流而上。

I mean, I I don't think most people's intentions are usually bad. It just seems like some of the norms in our culture are steering us towards undermining our friendships without maybe realizing it, where if it is something that you really want to prioritize that in your life, it feels a little bit like swimming against the current.

确实如此。很多时候感觉就像单相思。但我也要说，也有一些亚文化群体，比如酷儿群体，在那里人们更普遍地重视友谊。还有关于无性恋群体的讨论，关于柏拉图式生活伴侣的讨论。

It does. It can feel like unrequited love a lot. But I will say there's also sub communities, like queer communities, where it's a lot more common for people to put a lot more value on friendship. And there's talks about asexual communities. There's talks about platonic life partners.

我认为酷儿群体是友谊的先驱，可以教给异性恋者很多东西。我不知道你是否听说过‘关系无政府主义’这个词，但它是

I think queer communities are the pioneers of friendship and could teach hetero people a lot. I don't know if you've heard the term relationship anarchy, but it's

没有，你能解释一下吗？

No, can you explain it?

我最喜欢的观点之一。这个想法是，我们不需要用社会告诉我们的标准作为衡量不同类型关系价值的指南。我们可以选择最引起共鸣的方式。而我的选择是，我想同样重视朋友和潜在配偶。这就是我在更广泛的无政府框架下，希望在我生活中建立的等级体系。

One of my faves. It's this idea that we don't need to use what society has told us as our guidepost for the value that we place on different types of relationships. We can choose what resonates most with us. And my choice is I wanna value, again, friends as much as a potential spouse. Like that's the hierarchy that I would want in my life in the larger anarchy framework.

如果你从一个无政府状态出发，你希望朋友在你个人价值体系中处于什么位置？

If you start from a place of anarchy, where would you want friends to be in your personal valuing system?

上周我不在城里一周时，我最好的朋友之一朱莉发短信说，好吧，等你回来我要当个黏人的男朋友。因为我们俩都太忙，大概一周没怎么聊天了。我觉得她发那条小短信真的很贴心。我首先想到的是，很多时候当我们试图向朋友表达有多想念、多爱或多需要对方时，好像我们只有浪漫关系的语言来表达这种情感。

So when I was out of town for a week last week, Julie, one of my best friends texted me saying, okay. I'm gonna be full needy boyfriend when you're back. And we hadn't been talking for a week or so because we were both too busy. And I just thought it was so nice that she sent that little note. And the first thing I thought was a lot of times when we're trying to express to friends how much we miss each other or love each other or need each other, it's kind of as if we only have the language of romance to express that.

有时候我们用从浪漫伴侣关系中学到的爱的语言，来表达我们对朋友也有这种需求。

And sometimes we use the language of love that we understand through romantic partnerships to express that we have that need for our friends at all.

对。就像，她这么说非常可爱和甜蜜。但另一方面，你也不必通过假装自己像个黏人的男朋友来弱化想和朋友聚会的愿望。你是可以想念朋友的，对吧。

Right. Like, was very cute and sweet that she said that. But also, like, you don't have to minimize wanting to hang out with your friend by, like, pretending you're acting like a needy boyfriend. Like, you are allowed to miss your friend. Right.

完全同意。不。就是我之前提到的那项研究，它谈论了一种被动文化，主要集中在冲突方面。但我敢说，在美好时光中也存在一种被动文化。你知道，友谊往往变成一种便利的关系，或者随波逐流，顺其自然，有空再见。

Totally. No. It's that study I referenced earlier that was talking about a culture of passivity, it was sort of focusing on conflict. But I would venture to say that there's kind of a culture of passivity in the good times as well. You know, where friendship is too often like a relationship of convenience, or we'll go with the flow, and I'll see you when I see you.

如果你以那种被动的方式维持友谊，并期望它毫不费力地持续下去，实际上很难维系一段友谊。

And it's hard to actually keep up a friendship if you're being passive in that way, and you just expect it to come effortlessly.

没错。而且我真的不知道，如果我们不投入那种所谓的'工作'，我的很多友谊会如何维系。因为，你知道，我最好的两个朋友住在美国以外，我们处于不同的时区，很难轻易联系上。是的，通常其中一个人会在我这边时间一大早给我打电话，但一半时间我甚至接不到电话。

Right. And I genuinely don't know how a lot of my friendships would function if we didn't put in that quote, unquote work. Because, you know, two of my best friends live outside of The US, and we are in different time zones and don't catch each other easily. And Yeah. Usually, one of them tries to call me super early in the morning my time, which half the time I can't even pick up the phone.

这正体现了你能为朋友做的那种小小举动，它让我知道，你看，他们尝试联系我，如果可能的话，他们现在就想和我通话。

It's just emblematic of that sort of small gesture you can make for a friend, and it shows me that, you know, they tried to catch me, and if they could, they would be on the phone with me right now.

那么你是否觉得，你们在不同时区努力联系彼此的所谓'工作'和努力对你来说是一种负担？

And do you feel like that quote unquote work and effort that you put in to try to catch each other in different time zones is a burden to you?

不，一点也不。这是我们能向彼此展示的最微小的爱的表示，几乎不费什么力气。

No, not at all. It's the smallest, you know, gesture of love that we could sort of show each other and takes almost no effort.

是的。这就是为什么我觉得很奇怪，人们会说友谊的'工作'是某种困难、消极或负担重的事情。比如，你看到那个未接来电那么开心，我相信她给你打电话时也很开心。以上就是本期《如何与人交谈》的全部内容。本期节目由贝卡·拉希德制作，由我朱莉·贝克主持。

Yeah. That's that's why I think it's so strange that it's like, oh, the the work of friendship is some hard or negative or burdensome thing. Like, you're so happy to see that missed call, and I'm sure she was so happy to call you. That's all for this episode of How to Talk to People. This episode was produced by Becca Rashid and hosted by me, Julie Beck.

编辑由乔斯林·弗兰克和克劳迪娜·贝德完成。事实核查由安娜·阿尔瓦拉多负责。工程由罗布·斯米尔恰克负责。《如何与人交谈》的执行制片人是安德烈娅·瓦尔德斯。

Editing by Jocelyn Frank and Claudina Bayd. Fact check by Anna Alvarado. Engineering by Rob Smierczak. The managing producer of How to Talk to People is Andrea Valdez.

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