如何与人交谈：何以为家

好的。那么如果

Okay. So what if

你可以听你所有的书籍、文档、PDF和文章呢？嗯，你可以。使用11 Reader应用，你可以将任何内容转换成自然语音，就像这个一样。所以今天就到你喜欢的应用商店免费下载11 Reader吧。

you could listen to all your books, docs, PDFs, and articles? Well, you can. With the 11 Reader app, you can turn anything into natural sounding voice, like this one. So download 11 Reader for free on your favorite app store today.

这种生锈的期待。

This rusty anticipation.

希望它能行。你现在从不这样做了。

Hopefully it works. You never do now.

你好。你好。最近怎么样？

Hello. Hello. How's it going?

欢迎。很高兴见到你。谢谢邀请我们。

Welcome. Good to see you. Thanks for having us.

好吧，让我们从最基础的开始。你能描述一下我们现在在哪里吗？

Well, let's start super basic. Can you describe for me where we are right now?

我是黛博拉，我们现在在我们共享的家里，地址是483……我该说出地址吗？这样会不会很奇怪？

This is Deborah, and we are currently in our shared home at 483 should I say the address? Is that weird?

好的。我是

Okay. I'm

抱歉。也许不该说。就停在这儿吧。

sorry. Maybe not. Stop right there.

关于你的家庭生活，有哪些常见的误解是你发现自己不得不向人们解释的？

What are some common misconceptions about your home life that you find yourself having to explain to people?

我们不是换妻者。我

We're not swingers. I

我觉得很多人听到我们说，哦是的，我们和另一对夫妇住在一起时，他们会想，哦，就像他们住在地下室那样。

think a lot of people when we say like, oh yeah, we live with another couple. They're like, oh, like they live in the basement.

没有人被放逐到地下室。

No one's banished to the basement.

然后还有一大堆问题，比如，你知道，那是怎么运作的？

And then there's like a whole slew questions about, you know, how does that work?

大家好，我是朱莉·贝克，《大西洋月刊》的高级编辑。

Hi. I'm Julie Beck, a senior editor at The Atlantic.

我是贝卡·拉希德，《如何做》系列的制作人。

And I'm Becca Rashid, producer of the How To Series.

这里是《如何与人交谈》。

This is How To Talk To People.

嗨，大家好。嗨，我是

Hi, guys. Hi, I'm

我要做袜子。

gonna do socks.

我要

I'm gonna

营造一些温馨的氛围。

do some cozy.

很高兴见到你们。我知道。所以是朱莉和贝卡。是的。贝卡。

It's so nice to meet you. I know. So Julie and Becca. Yes. Becca.

黛博拉·特普利、卢克·杰克逊、贝瑟尼和TJ·弗莱明慷慨地邀请我们在一个周一下午到他们家做客。

Deborah Teppley, Luke Jackson, and Bethany and TJ Fleming kindly invited us into their home on a Monday afternoon.

我不知道你是否已经谈到了重点。没有。我还没和你谈过。我是黛博拉。

I don't know if you've talked to point. No. I have not talked to you yet. It's Deborah.

很高兴见到

Nice And to meet

这是我丈夫卢克，他正在做准备，真是最合适的时机。总之，你们需要我帮忙吗，你们也可以把外套挂起来。

this is my husband Luke who is making prep, like, most opportune time. Anyway, do you want me to you can grab your coats too.

我最初在2019年一篇名为《与朋友合买房的理由》的文章中报道过他们的共同居住安排。但这是我们第一次见面。

I first reported on their shared living setup back in 2019 in an article called The Case for Buying a House with Friends. But this was the first time we'd met in person.

当然。如果这个

Sure. If this

是的话，我就把麦克风架放在这里。是的。当朱莉和我走进他们家时，我能感受到他们共享的生活空间里有一种轻松和 playful 的氛围。他们的装饰简洁通透，奶油色的墙壁搭配深色点缀，还有两张浅灰色沙发，我们在那里录制了几个小时。那里非常舒适，而且考虑到有两个年幼的孩子住在那儿，干净得令人惊讶。

is I'll just leave these mic stands right here. Yeah. When Julie and I walked into their house, I felt a sort of ease and playfulness in their shared living setup. Their decor was simple and airy with cream walls and dark accents and two light gray couches where we recorded for the next few hours. It was really cozy and honestly amazingly clean considering two young kids lived there.

一个叫玛丽·海莉，另一个叫帕克斯。

One named Mary Haley and the other named Pax.

朱莉称赞我们的房间很干净。

Julie complimented us on how clean our room was.

有多干净？

How clean?

我是不是 我是不是 她

Was I was I did she

进我们房间了？她 她有没有去工作？睡觉。

go into our room? Did did she ever get into work? Sleep.

尽管他们如此脚踏实地，但他们的家庭生活实际上有点悄无声息的激进。

But as down to earth as they are, their home life is actually kinda quietly radical.

那那其实是黛博拉的房间，如果你愿意这么说的话。

That's that's really Deborah's room, if you'd like to say that.

年轻时和朋友一起生活固然美好，但安顿下来的概念在成年后可能成为一个强烈的动力。独栋住宅之所以叫这个名字是有原因的，因为预期是一个家庭会住在里面，尽管这可能很局限。

It's all well and good to live with friends when you're young, but the concept of settling down can be a strong motivator in adulthood. And single family homes are called that name for a reason, because the expectation is a single family will live in them, as limiting as that may be.

这一切始于几年前的一个新年早午餐。这四个在教堂认识的朋友，他们一边享用香槟，一边欢笑，然后卢克突然提议他们应该一起买一栋房子。四个人都同意了。他们对尝试一种更 communal（共享）的生活方式感到兴奋。

So this all started a few years ago at a New Year's brunch. The four friends who had met at church, they were enjoying some champagne, having some laughs, and then kind of out of nowhere, Luke proposed that they should all buy a house together. And all four of them were down. They were excited to try a more communal way of living.

我们现在在我们共享的家里，它位于华盛顿特区西北象限的Petworth。

We are currently in our shared home, which is in Petworth in the Northwest Quadrant of Washington DC.

这是卢克。我们在我们的客厅里，这里很棒。

And this is Luke. We are in our living room, which is great.

这是TJ，我想补充一下，外面阳光明媚，我们可以看到我们种的许多植物。

And this is TJ, and I would just add that it's a bright sunny day outside, and we can see many of the plants we've planted.

我没有什么要补充的。

I don't have anything to add.

好的。很好。

Okay. Great.

经过多次后勤方面的讨论和大量的财务电子表格，他们现在有了一个集体抵押贷款，两对夫妇平分了房屋成本，每人50%。

So after many logistical conversations and plenty of financial spread sheets, they now have a group mortgage and split the cost of their home $50.50 between the two couples.

在与这些家庭交流时，我发现自己思考着，我们对‘家’的定义方式是否限制了我们的可能性。我觉得我们的文化可能会迫使成年人将家庭生活完全围绕伴侣和孩子展开，但对我来说，如何以不同方式建立社区以及那会是什么样子，并不总是那么显而易见。

While visiting with these families, I found myself wondering whether how we define what makes a house a home may be what limits us. I feel like our culture can pressure adults to orient family life exclusively around a romantic partner and children, but it's not always immediately clear to me how to build community in a different way and what that looks like.

是的。我觉得人们总是这样，你知道，哦，所以，就像，你们是合租或者什么的，然后我就说，不。不。不。我们是和其他人一起买的房子。

Yeah. I think that's always, you know, oh, so, like, you're renting together or and I'm like, no. No. No. We bought a house with other people.

就像，人们以为我们会后悔。

Like, people assume that we regret it.

我认为人们对这种安排的后勤细节非常好奇。他们对孩子以及如何运作感到好奇。在向某人提供这些信息之前，确实要考虑一下，比如，我是否想进行这次对话？因为这会引发很多问题。所以这实际上是我在分享我们的共同生活状况之前会考虑的事情。

I think people are very curious about the logistics of the arrangement. They're curious about the kids and how that works. Before offering that information to someone, do think about it, like, do I wanna have this conversation? Because it's gonna raise a lot of questions. And so that is something I actually do consider before sharing about our shared living situation.

你需要花多少精力来解释自己呢，是的。

How much energy do you have to explain yourself Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

是的。你觉得是不是因为我们美国那种‘一个家庭，一个家’的理想，就像‘我的家就是我的城堡’这种感觉太强烈了，以至于他们觉得，他们肯定在地下室。他们不可能在楼上。

Yeah. Do you think it's just that our sort of American ideal of one family, one home, like my home is my castle vibes is so strong that they're like, they must be in the basement. They couldn't possibly be upstairs.

我就是这么想的。是的。人们会想到他们自己在家里的生活是什么样子，然后就假设我们的生活也一定是某种他们能认出来的版本。

That's what I think. Yeah. Is that people think about what their life at home looks like and they assume that ours must be like some recognizable version of that.

是的。你知道，就像美国梦的信息，比如买自己的房子，还有全国房地产经纪人协会非常成功地让每个人都相信那是为他们准备的。要知道，我们仍然能享受到那些好处的大部分。只是我们有点像是在共享

Yeah. You know, the message of like the American dream of like buying your own house and like the National Association of Realtors has been really successful in making sure everyone believes that's for them. You know, we still get most of those benefits. It's just we kind of we share

它。

it.

是的。而且我认为这是一个区别，无论是合租还是一个家庭租给另一个家庭，都没有同样的共同所有权感。另外，我觉得可能还有一种权力差异，一个家庭拥有房子，另一个在租，但我们都在其中，明白吗？所以如果有什么东西坏了或者需要修理，我们都会投入。我们都很关心结果。

Yeah. And I think that is a difference either renting together one household renting to another is that there's not the same sense of shared ownership. There's also, I think maybe a power differential of one household owns a house and one is renting, but we're all in it, know? So if something breaks or if something needs to be repaired, we're all invested. We all really care about the outcome.

我认为这实际上有助于我们避免冲突，因为我们也投资了这处房产，而且我们都热爱这栋房子。

And I think that actually helps us to avoid conflict because we're also invested in this property and we love this house.

那么最初是谁先想到要一起买房子的？

And whose idea was it first to buy a house together?

我过去几年一直在向卢克提议过集体生活。我来自一个大家庭，非常喜欢和别人一起住。我喜欢和室友同住。所以我一直给他发各种关于不同人群居生活的文章或播客。而卢克在娶我之前，除了家人外从未有过室友。

I had been pitching Luke on living in community for a couple of years. I grew up in a big family, and I really love living with other people. I loved living with roommates. And so I kept sending him different articles or podcasts about different people who were in group house situations. And Luke had never had a roommate other than a family member before he married me.

所以他当时说，绝对不行。然后有一天，他听完我发给他的一个播客或布道后回家说，我可能对此持开放态度。话虽如此，当卢克在新年早午餐时向TJ和Bethany提出这个想法时，没有人比我更惊讶了。

And so he said, Absolutely not. And then one day he came home after listening to a podcast or a sermon that I'd sent to him and said, I think I might be open to this. That being said, no one was more surprised than me when Luke popped the question at New Year's brunch to TJ and Bethany.

所以新年早午餐时你们都已经结婚了？

So you were both married at the time of the New Year's brunch?

是的。

Yeah.

作为已婚夫妇，你们是否感到有压力，觉得家庭生活应该符合某种特定模式？

And did you feel any pressure as married couples for your home life to look a certain way?

我认为在文化上，人们通常默认结婚后就要买房，组建家庭，然后像独立的核式家庭单位那样生活。所以这始终是我对我们婚姻生活的设想。但当我和Deborah讨论买房以及可能的选择时，这种安排绝对不是默认选项之一。

I think culturally, I think you just assume you get married, you buy a home, you know, have a family and live like an independent nuclear kind of family unit. And so I think, like, that had always been my assumption of, like, what our married life would look like. But as Deborah and I were sort of talking about buying a home and what might that look like, and and this was definitely not one of the default options.

当你告诉别人你们考虑这样做时，他们会怎么说？你们会遇到什么样的反对意见？

What would people say when you told them that you were thinking of doing this? Like, what kind of pushback would you get?

当我们和别人讨论这个想法时，所有人都认为这是个坏主意，包括我们的房地产经纪人。他在我们提出这个想法后专门坐下来告诉我们：你们不应该这样做，这是个糟糕的主意。他的理由是：两个人要达成共识买一套房子已经够难了，我无法想象四个人如何能找到完美的房子。但我们实际上很快就找到了。我想大多数人都在担心最坏的情况。

When we talked about it with other people, everyone thought it was a bad idea, including our real estate agent who actually sat down with us after we pitched the idea and said, you shouldn't do this. This is a bad idea. And, you know, his rationale was it's hard enough for two people to agree on a house that they wanna buy together. I can't even imagine working with four people to find the perfect house, but we actually did find it pretty quickly. I think most people were worried about the worst case scenarios.

万一不行呢？你们都在同一份房贷上。如果有人有了孩子怎么办？如果行不通，你们要怎么友好地分开？

What if it doesn't work? You're all on the mortgage. What happens, you know, when someone has kids? If it doesn't work, how are you guys gonna be able to split amicably?

我收到了很多关于管教方式的问题，比如他们到底喜不喜欢孩子？如果他们不喜欢你的孩子怎么办？这些确实让我有些担心，但我觉得，毕竟是Luke和Deborah，他们肯定会爱我们的孩子。而且如果我要在任何人面前第一次当父母，我最希望的就是在Luke和Deborah面前。

I got a lot of questions about what does discipline look like and like, do they even like kids? What if they don't like your kids? Those are things that I was like nervous about, but I feel like, you know, it's Luke and Deborah. They're gonna love our kids. And if I am going to like parent for the first time in front of anyone, like, I would want it to be Luke and Deborah, you know?

你们希望从家庭生活中获得什么，是传统的单一家庭安排无法满足的？你们希望这种新模式能提供什么？

What was it that you wanted from your home life that wouldn't be met by the traditional single family home arrangement? And what did you hope that this would provide instead?

我们四个人都有全职工作。在共同生活中，我们分摊杂货采购，分配谁在什么时候做饭。现在有很多讨论说家务劳动往往落在关系中的一方身上，而我们把这分摊给了四个人。

You know, four of us have full time jobs. And so when you're living in community, like we split groceries, we divide up like who's cooking and when. And there's a lot of talk out there about the domestic labor falls to one partner in a relationship. So we divide that among four people.

单凭我们任何一个人，从经济角度来说都不会买下这栋房子。这样我们得以在一个更令我们兴奋的社区购买更大的房产。

Neither of us on our own would have purchased this house, like financially speaking. Like, we got to buy a larger property in a neighborhood that we were more excited about living in. So

是的。我觉得我可能是我们中最务实的一个。在与黛博拉结婚三四年后开始这个过程时，我已经意识到即使只是和配偶同住也具有挑战性，但这促使我成长，变得更温柔、更友善、更少以自我为中心。所以我在想，哇，如果仅仅和黛博拉同住就能这样，想象一下再加入更多人会怎样。我不确定是否完全实现了这个预期。

Yeah. I think I maybe approached this at least practically of of any of us. So I, after being married to Deborah for, you know, three or four years when we started this process, I had kind of become aware of how, like, living even just with a spouse is challenging, but encouraged me to grow, to be gentler, to be kinder, to be less self centered. And so I was sort of thinking, like, wow, if just like living with just Deborah has done that, imagine, like, adding more people to the mix. I don't know if that's panned out quite.

但没有。没有按照我预想的方式

But No. No. The way that I thought it would

规模翻倍了。

Doubled in size.

规模翻倍甚至三倍了。但是卢克，

Doubled tripled in size. But Luke,

你可以变得更温柔和柔和。谢谢。不客气。

you can become gentler and softer. Thank you. You're welcome.

听到这个很令人安心。所以我真的认为这样的社群生活让我们成为更好的人，鼓励我们成长，减少自我中心。

That's that's reassuring to hear. So I actually think it makes us better people and encourages us to grow less self centered to live in community like this.

我想说的是，人们常常认为我们做出这个决定是出于经济原因。但我认为这更多是出于一种使命般的渴望，想要生活在社区中，与TJ和Bethany一起生活。我曾以为自己会成为一个更大气的人，想象自己会非常无私。但很多时候我发现自己并非如此。

I would say I think that people often assume that we made this decision for financial reasons. And I think it was more of a missional kind of the desire to live in community and to live with TJ and Bethany. And I thought I would be a bigger person. Imagine I'll be really altruistic. And I think a lot of times I'm not.

我真的很感激他们对我的恩典和宽恕，尤其是当我不够大气，或者当我行为表现很差的时候。所以这里有很多给予恩典和宽恕的机会，而我也一次又一次地成为了接受者。

And I really have appreciated their grace and forgiveness towards me when I'm not a big person or when I don't when I'm actually my behavior is very poor. And so there's a lot of opportunities for grace and forgiveness, and I've been the recipient of that time and time again.

是的。我也觉得这其实挺多的。

Yeah. I also just think it's a lot

乐趣。我真的觉得我们没有充分表达我们在一起有多开心。总是有人可以聊天或者一起玩。

of fun. I really feel like we're not communicating how much fun we have together. Someone's always around to, like, talk to or hang out with.

你知道，Julie，我现在这个年纪，很多朋友都有认真的恋爱关系，甚至很多人已经有了孩子。所以随意聚在一起的时间自然就少了。如果我们提前安排，还是可以凑出时间的，但明显感觉到，那种随时见面、自发聚会的轻松感已经不一样了。

You know, Julie, I'm at the age where many of my friends have serious romantic partners, and a lot of them even have kids. So the time for casual hangouts is understandably limited. And if we schedule something, we can make it work, but there has been a noticeable shift in the ease of just meeting up and hanging out spontaneously.

是的。这一点我也有点担心，我自己处于一段长期关系中，而且刚刚经历了疫情，那几年我们基本上只和彼此相处。我不希望我们的关系变得过于封闭。这种情况确实会发生。比如，已婚人士比单身人士更少与朋友和邻居聚会。

Yeah. That is something that I worry about a little bit being in a long term relationship myself and also having just been through a pandemic where we, like, mostly only hung out with each other for a few years. I don't want us to be super insular in our relationship. And that does happen. Like, married people are a lot less likely than single people to hang out with their friends and neighbors.

研究表明，这一现象在不同种族、年龄和社会经济地位的人群中都成立。所以，尽管我认为我们现在不一定非要邀请另一对夫妇搬来和我们同住，但我正在努力更有意识地定期花更多时间与朋友们相处。因为尽管我们彼此深爱，但我不希望我们对彼此的爱让我们疏远了友谊。而且在文化上，有时候甚至会觉得，想要这样做好像都不太像成年人该有的想法。

And research shows that holds true across race, age, and socioeconomic status. So even though I don't think we're gonna necessarily invite another couple to move in with us right now, I am trying to be more deliberate about spending more time with my friends regularly. Because as much as we love each other, like, I don't want our love for each other to pull us away from our friendships. And culturally, sometimes it feels like it's not even very adult to want to

永远和朋友们住在一起。所以，虽然我理想中的场景是拥有一张巨大的宜家L形组合沙发，让我的伴侣和10个朋友都能坐在一起，但这在现实中并不总是最可行的，当它

live with your friends forever. So although it's my ideal scenario to have a huge l shaped IKEA sectional couch where my partner, along with my 10 friends, can sit together, it doesn't always feel the most realistic when it

涉及到长期的生活安排时

comes to a long term living situation

我实际上可以和那些我选择的家人一起生活，并与他们共同建立一个家。

where I can actually live with those sort of chosen family members of mine and make a home with them.

我的意思是，尤其是一旦你达到某些人生里程碑，比如如果你选择结婚或生孩子，社会期望就会变得更强烈，认为你应该只和你的核心家庭住在一起，也就是只和你的伴侣和孩子一起生活。

I mean, especially once you reach certain milestones, like if you do choose to get married or if you do choose to have kids, the expectation just kinda gets even stronger that you're going to live with just your nuclear family, like just your partner and your kids.

没错。围绕这件事的文化和社会压力只是等式的一部分。对于这两个家庭来说，他们还必须梳理和厘清各自的期望与恐惧。

Right. And the cultural and social pressures around this are just one part of the equation. In the case of these two families, they had to lay out and untangle their individual expectations and fears too.

所以，在开始这件事之前，这是你所期望的。那你害怕的是什么呢？

So going into this, that's what you were hoping for from it. What were you afraid of?

哦，这是个好问题。我们把所有那些事情都写下来了。这是我们的房产经纪人的建议。他说，在你们开始这个过程之前，把你们所有的恐惧都写下来，折成小纸条放进一个碗里，然后一个一个抽出来讨论。我们就是这么做的。

Oh, that's a good question. We wrote all those things down. This was a suggestion from our realtor. He was like, before you guys start on this process, write down all your fears, fold them up on pieces of paper, put them in a bowl and just like pull them out one by one and talk about it. And so that's what we did.

关于那次关于合住的对话，你们还记得些什么？

What else do y'all remember about the bowl conversation?

嗯，我们都哭了。记得我们读这些回应的时候。我的一个回应是，他们可能会后悔和我们一起买房，大概一两年后吧，我当时就在想那种感觉会有多糟糕。

Well, we all cried. Remember that as we were reading these responses. One of my responses was they would regret having bought a house with us like a year in or two years in, and I just thought about how bad that would feel.

我的意思是，从根本上说，这关乎被拒绝，对吧？就像，哇，他们要和我一起住了，他们会发现我真实的样子，然后他们可能会想，哇，真希望半年前就坚决拒绝了之类的。

I mean, think like fundamentally it was about rejection, right? Like, wow, they're going to live with me and they're going to figure out what I'm really like And they're gonna be like, wow, wish we had done a hard pass, like, six months ago kind of thing.

就像任何关系即将发生变化时一样，我想你会担心，比如，我会失去这个朋友吗？或者事情会不会不再有趣，或者会变得完全不同？你知道，那大概是我当时的恐惧之一。

Similar to any relationship where something's gonna change, you, I think, worry about, like, will I lose this friend, you know, or will things not be as fun, or will they be way different? You know, that was I guess one of my fears.

我们谈了很多关于如果有人真的失控了怎么办。我们中有几个人家里有人患过精神疾病，有家人突然经历心理健康危机并发生变化。但愿不会，但万一我们中有人离婚了呢？或者我记得关于心理健康的那部分是我们都哭了的话题。是的。

We talked a lot about like what happens if somebody really goes off the rails. Several of us have had mental illness in the family and had family members like suddenly, you know, go through a mental health crisis and change. God forbid, what if one of us gets divorced? Or what if I remember the mental health one being one that we all cried about. Yeah.

关于搬家那天以及随后的几周和几个月，你们都记得些什么？

What do y'all remember about move in day and the sort of weeks and months following that?

贝瑟尼当时怀孕很久了。

Bethany was very pregnant.

天哪，我当时怀孕七个月了。但我确实记得那时候，我们全家人会一起散步。

Oh my gosh, I was seven months pregnant. But I do remember during that time, we would all take family walks.

哦，是的。

Oh yeah.

深夜的时候，我会...你知道，没有一件衣服合身，所以看起来很滑稽。卢克和黛博拉走得特别快，所以他们就像...走得非常非常慢。大家都按我的步调走，这样我们可以聊天。我们每晚都这样做。

Late at night and I would like be, you know, nothing fit, so I was ridiculous. And Luke and Deborah walk really fast and so they were like, just really like walking very, very slowly. We all walked at my pace so that we could talk. We did it every night.

我记得那是一段早期的快乐时光。就像我们所有人都在共同期待某件事的到来。

I remember that being an early fun time. Like we all had something that we were anticipating kind of together.

嗯。

Mhmm.

准备婴儿房，讨论着比如，哦，知道吗，贝瑟尼的妈妈要来吗？TJ的妈妈什么时候来？他们去医院的时候，我们该怎么办？那真是一段非常有趣的时期，我们所有人都期待着玛丽·海莉的到来，屏息等待着。

Getting the nursery ready and talking through like, oh, know, is, you know, Bethany's mom coming? When is TJ's mom coming? When they go to the hospital, like, what are we gonna do? Just being a really, fun period when we all were kind of looking forward to Mary Haley's arrival and like waiting with bated breath. How

你们俩是如何决定希望卢克和黛博拉在你们孩子生活中扮演的角色的？哦，多么温馨的问题。

did you both decide the role that you wanted Luke and Deborah to play in your children's lives? Oh, what a really sweet question.

我的意思是，卢克和黛博拉会成为我们孩子的教父母。这感觉是一个非常明显的选择。我们希望我们的孩子能体验到卢克和黛博拉带来的那种善良和爱，他们是我们家庭的一部分。我是说，我们是一家人。

I mean, will Luke and Deborah are the godparents to our children. That felt like a really obvious one. We want our children to experience like Luke and Deborah and the kindness and the love that they bring to our family. I mean, we're a family.

是的。和孩子们一起生活很有趣，因为他们从未和我们分开过一天。所以对他们来说，和卢克叔叔和黛博拉住在一起是很正常的事。而且，你知道，玛丽·哈利一开始叫我们，我是爸爸，卢克是另一个爸爸。

Yeah. It's interesting living with kids because they have never known a day apart from us. And so it's just normal that they live with Uncle Luke and Deborah. And, you know, Mary Haley at first called us, I was dada and Luke was douche.

不确定我怎么得了那个称呼。

Not sure how I ended up with that one.

但我们总是开玩笑说玛丽·哈利有一个爸爸和一个爹地。是的，我的意思是，我们只是他们正常生活的一部分，他们从未问过，为什么你们住在这里？

But we always joked that Mary Haley had a daddy and a dada. Yeah, I mean, it's just like we're just part of their normal life and they've never asked like, why do you live here?

在这种共享环境中，关于育儿的讨论是怎样的？

What were the discussions about parenting in this shared environment like?

我的意思是，我想我们都一致认为，贝瑟尼和我会按照我们认为正确的方式来养育我们的孩子，而黛博拉喜欢非常整洁的空间，所以我们尝试在角落里有一个地方，

I mean, think we're all just like on the same page that Bethany and I were gonna kind of parent our children how, like, we thought was right and Deborah loves, like, a very neat space, so we try we have, like, a place in the corner where

我也喜欢

I also like

嗯，还有一个好处是，贝瑟尼非常喜欢整洁的空间，我认为如果没有某种共享的价值观体系，这真的很难做到。嗯。另一对夫妇，或者我认为至少需要某种共同的信仰体系或非信仰体系才能实现这一点。

Well, a neat also, Bethany loves a very neat space, and I think it's really hard to do this if you don't have some kind of shared value system with Mhmm. Another couple, or I think you need at least some kind of shared faith system or shared non faith system to do that.

我的意思是，我认为让人们知道这一点很有帮助，嘿，这是我们遇到这种情况时使用的策略。我们很早就决定，比如，TJ和我来管教孩子，而卢克和黛博拉是他们的姑姑和叔叔，对吧？他们维护规则，不鼓励孩子违反规则。但TJ和我负责提供纪律或后果。

I mean, think it's helpful for people to know, hey, this is a strategy we're using when this happens. We decided early on, you know, like, TJ and I will discipline our kids, and Luke and Deborah are their aunt and uncle, you know? They uphold the rules. They don't encourage the kids to break the rules, right? But TJ and I, like, provide the, like, discipline or consequences.

我认为这也帮助了我们，就像，那种界限感。

I think that has also helped, just, like, that boundary.

我还想问卢克和黛博拉，你们对于承诺不只是和另一对夫妇生活，而是和别人家的孩子一起生活，有什么感受？我想我们很多人在朋友的孩子中扮演姑姑或叔叔的角色时，至少我自己是这样，我知道我会介入一下，出现一下，给他们放电影，给他们塞满糖，然后把他们送还给父母。但你们签下的是全天候参与所有事情。

I wanted to ask also Luke and Deborah, how did you feel about committing not to live just with another couple, but with someone else's kids? I think a lot of us who play the sort of aunt or uncle role to our friends' kids, at least myself, I know like I dip in and I dip show up, I show them a movie, I pump them full of sugar and I send them on their way to their parents. But you signed on to be there for all of it, all the time.

TJ和贝瑟尼从一开始讨论这件事时就明确表示他们计划要孩子。所以我们一直都知道，这就是我们要面对的情况。但令人谦卑的是，我们实际上仍然可以选择退出。也许程度不完全一样，你知道，你仍然能从卧室听到尖叫声，但我们可以真正走开，享受一些隐私，或者让TJ和贝瑟尼处理发生的任何事情。

TJ and Bethany were upfront that they were planning on having kids like from our very first conversation about this. So we always knew going in, know, that this was what we were signing up for. But it is humbling that like we actually do still have the option of dipping out. Maybe not quite to the same degree, you know, you can still hear the screaming from the bedroom, but we can actually like step away and have some privacy or let TJ and Bethany deal with whatever is happening.

我们认为这会是一次很棒的冒险，一方面我们确实知道自己在做什么。我们足够了解孩子。但我们并没有对与孩子一起生活抱有理想化或浪漫化的看法。我们不打算要孩子，我们知道这一点。但我们觉得这是一种参与孩子生活的好方式。

I think we thought it would be a great adventure and on the one hand we did know what we were getting ourselves into. We'd been around kids enough. But I don't think we had an idealized or romanticized view of what it would be like to live with kids. We were not planning to have kids, we knew that. But I think we felt like this would be a good way to participate in the life of kids.

是的。而且我们的孩子爱他们。是的。

Yeah. And our kids love them. Yes.

就像，我们爱他们的孩子。我们对他们非常着迷，他们很可爱。

Like, We love their kids. We are crazy about They're sweet.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，这就像是住在一起的最大乐趣之一，就是能够和一个社区一起养育孩子，我觉得我们原本不会有这样的机会。我觉得很多人在家里和孩子一起时会感到孤立。一方面，在有观众的情况下养育孩子确实很难，你知道吗？但另一方面，我很高兴我们能一起做这件事，这带来了很大的不同。

I think that has been, like, one of the great joys of living together is getting to parent with a community that I think we wouldn't have otherwise. I think a lot of people feel isolated in their house with their kids. On the one hand, it is hard parenting in front of an audience, you know? And on the other, I'm so glad that we're like doing it together and so that has made a big difference.

我们房子里成年人与孩子的比例是二比一，我觉得很多人听到这个会非常羡慕，因为这确实提供了更多的成年人，不仅仅是在安全和看管方面，而且孩子们就像注意力海绵，对吧？有更多的人在家里帮忙养育他们真是太好了，而且听到孩子们开始使用我或黛博拉用的那些疯狂词汇也真的很有趣，能够在没有亲生孩子的情况下参与抚养他们是一种特权。

We have a two to one adult to child ratio in the house and I think a lot of people would hear that and be pretty envious because it does, it provide more adults to, not just in terms of safety and keeping an eye on things, but just kids are attention sponges, right? It's nice to have more people in the house who can help, you know, kind of nurture them and it's also really fun to hear the kids starting to use, you know, crazy words that I use or that Deborah uses and it's a privilege to get to be playing a role in like raising children without actually having had them.

你们每天晚上都一起吃饭吗？

Do you eat together every night?

是的。谁在家谁就一起吃饭。

We do. Whoever is here eats together.

孩子们也一起吗？

And the kids too?

是的。

Yep.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yep.

你们家里每周都建立了哪些惯例和节奏？

What are some of the rituals and rhythms that you've established in your house kind of week to week?

最初我们每周开一次家庭会议，现在仍然开家庭会议，但不那么频繁了。我认为部分原因是我们不像最初那样需要经常开会。这个想法来自华盛顿的另一个合租屋。他们说每周开一次会，首先会问哪些事情进展顺利，哪些不顺利。每个人都要轮流回答这两个问题。

Initially, we did a weekly house meeting, and we still do house meetings, not quite weekly. And I think part of that is just like we don't have the need for them as frequently as we did at first. We got this idea from another group house in DC. They said that they do a meeting every week and they ask, first of all, what's working and what's not working. Everyone goes around and has to respond to both questions.

就像那些可能会让你心烦意乱的小事，或者可能长期困扰你的问题。所以我认为这对我们来说是个好做法，就是把事情摊开来说，你知道，这提供了一个交流的平台。

Like, just the little things that really can grade on you or things that might be upsetting to you that might just fester for a long time. And so I think that's been a good practice for us, just sort of getting things out in the open, you know, it provides a forum for that.

所以可能是很小的事情，比如洗碗机直到中午还没清空，这让我很不方便。也可能是很大的事情，比如，嘿，我想辞职去上护理学校。你们觉得怎么样？你知道，可能是

So it could be something very small like, the dishwasher isn't getting emptied until like noon and that's not working for me. Or it could be something very large like, Hey, I think I'm gonna quit my job and go to nursing school. Like, what do you guys think? You know, it could

这听起来像是一个真实的例子。

That sounds like a real example.

嗯，肯定有很多我敢说我们可以。有很多不顺利的事情只是和生活有关，不一定。

Well, there were plenty of I bet we can. There have been plenty of not workings that were just related to life, not necessarily.

确实如此。会出现一些与房子无关的事情，或者与那个人的配偶有关的事情。这种情况确实会发生。

That's true. Things will come out that are related not related to the house or that are related to that person's spouse. That happens.

在每周的家庭会议上，我们还会讨论每周的后勤安排，比如谁做饭、哪天做饭、是否有客人来访、有没有哪晚有人不在家，以及TJ和Bethany是否需要帮忙照顾孩子之类的事情。

At the weekly house meeting, we also talk through, like, weekly logistics, who's cooking, what days are they gonna cook, are we having anyone over, is there a night when somebody's gonna be out of the house and, you know, TJ and Bethany need help with childcare or something like that.

你们家有哪些冲突管理策略？你们有特定的处理方式吗？

What are some conflict management strategies in your house? Do you have specific ways that you go about it?

建立一个定期沟通的结构非常有帮助，因为这样你就不会感到必须在当下提出某个问题的压力，即使你可能还没准备好谈论它。就像，我知道我们会有个会议，所以我可以在那里提出来。

Having, like, a structure for regular communication is really helpful because you don't feel this pressure to bring something up in the moment when you may or may not be ready to talk about it. Like, oh, I know we're having, like, a meeting, and so I can just bring it up there.

婚姻中的许多经验也适用于这种情况，比如如果你没有大声说出来，就不能要求别人对此负责。你还必须说出哪些方面是顺利的，对吧？所以，这也是我从TJ和Bethany那里学到的一点，就是要说出你感激的事情。对吧？比如，说说哪些是顺利的？

Many of the lessons from marriage also apply to things like you can't hold someone accountable to it if you didn't say it out loud. You also have to say what's working, right? And so, and that is something I think that I also have taken from TJ and Bethany is you say what you're grateful for. Right? Like, say what is working?

说实话，我真的很感激你这么做。嘿，我们搞到了一台意式咖啡机，对我来说真的很管用。

Say what I really appreciated it when you did this. Hey. We got a we got an espresso maker. That's really working for me.

是的。老实说，‘什么行得通，什么行不通’这个问题很难回答，部分原因是你不愿伤害别人的感情，而且它迫使你去谈论那些平时不会讨论的事情。所以我觉得这迫使我成为了更好的沟通者。我从观察TJ和Bethany的婚姻以及他们的沟通方式中学到了很多。因此，我认为与人同住的一个额外好处是，你能近距离地观察他们的生活，看到他们如何解决冲突、如何教育孩子等等。

Yeah. Honestly, that question, what's working, what's not working, is a really hard question to answer in part because you don't wanna hurt people's feelings and, you know, it just really forces you to talk about things that you wouldn't talk about otherwise. So I think that has forced me to be a better communicator. I have learned a lot from watching TJ and Bethany's marriage and just the way that they communicate. And so I think that's an added benefit of living with people is that you see their life so close-up and personal and you see the way that they resolve conflict and the way that they parent their kids, all those things.

所以我觉得我学到了很多，而且因为和TJ、Bethany一起生活，我成为了更好的沟通者。

And so I feel like I've learned a lot, and I think I'm a better communicator because I've lived with TJ Bethany.

是的，我同意这一点。在社群中生活挑战你变得更有情商。对吧？这是我的问题，还是别人说了伤人的话，或者他们只是没考虑到？但我感觉如何，为什么会有这种感觉？

Yeah. I would second that. Living in community challenges you to just be emotionally intelligent. Right? Is this like a me problem or is this actually somebody said something that was hurtful or they were just like not thinking about it or but how am I feeling and why?

这是需要别人帮我处理的事情，还是我可以自己消化的事情？

And is it something that I need other people to help me deal with or is it something that I can, you know, process on my own?

是的。而且我认为在社群中生活也迫使你在集体中经营自己的婚姻。有一个著名的晚上，我们坐下来吃晚饭。坐下后我说，你知道吗？Luke和我在吵架，我们需要一些时间。

Yeah. And I think it also living in community forces you to work out your own kind of marriage in community. And there's this infamous night where we all sat down to dinner. We sat down and I said, you know what? Luke and I are are fighting and we need some time.

所以我们要去解决这个问题，十五分钟后回来。然后Bethany说，TJ和我也在吵架。我觉得TJ和Luke当时可能都在想，我们也在吵架。

And so we're gonna go, like, work this out. We'll be back in fifteen minutes. And Bethany said, TJ and I are fighting too. I think I think that TJ and Luke were both like, we're fighting.

哦，不。好吧，那

Oh, no. Well, that

也许那是第一个。

maybe that was the first one.

我们分散到房子的不同区域，十五分钟后回来，然后一起吃完晚餐。

Split up into separate areas of the house, and we came back after fifteen minutes and and, like, finished dinner together.

但我完全不记得那件事了。太搞笑了。

But I have no recollection of that. That's hilarious.

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我们彼此相爱，而这种爱实际上是建立在承诺基础上的，对吧？嗯。我认为这种承诺早于房贷，但房贷也是这种承诺的一个有用的象征，对吧？

We love each other, and that love actually, like, is based on a commitment. Right? And that's Mhmm. I think that commitment predates a mortgage, but a mortgage is a useful, you know, symbol of that as well. Right?

就像，我们都对此做出了承诺。而且我们在财务和其他方面也都承担了责任。所以，是的，出于这种承诺，我们产生了这样的愿望：我们需要让这个安排成功，我们想要让它成功。那么，我们如何以一种对每个人都最好的方式来实现呢？

Like, we are all committed to this. Like, we are financially on the hook in in other ways as well. And so, yeah, out of that commitment comes a desire to like, well, let's we need to make this work. Let's we want to make this work. And so how do we do that in a way that's like best for everybody?

我觉得承诺的非凡之处在于，当今美国乃至其他地方的友谊文化在某种程度上是反承诺的，我认为。这不一定是坏事，但友谊在某种程度上是由其自愿性定义的。你没有像婚姻或核心家庭中那样的正式承诺。因此，可能会出现这样一种感觉：我爱你，你是我的朋友，但最高的真理是每个人都需要做对自己最有利的事情。我认为，很少会有人对朋友施加义务或接受朋友的义务。

I think what's kinda remarkable to me about the commitment is that friendship culture in The US and maybe elsewhere today is very anti commitment, I think. And not always in a bad way necessarily, but I think friendship is defined in some ways by its voluntary nature. You don't have those formal commitments that you have in marriage, that you have in nuclear family. And so there can become this sort of sense of, you know, I love you and you're my friend, but the highest truth is everybody needs to do what's best for themselves. And I think it is rare that you would put an obligation onto your friend or accept an obligation from your friend.

是的，绝对是。我觉得我是在设定健康的界限。比如，我需要做一些自我照顾，就是那种说法。嗯。

Yeah. Definitely. I think I'm setting healthy boundaries. Like, I need to do some self care, like, that kind of language. Mhmm.

我认为我们有一种基于信仰的共同道德框架。至少在我看来，基督教的核心实际上是以他人为中心的爱，我选择对你最有利的，而不是对我最有利的。所以我认为这也影响了我们共同的生活以及彼此之间的承诺。虽然我从中受益，但我也想爱你，服务你和你的孩子以及Deborah。我认为这确实是我们这个家的起点。

I think we have a kind of shared moral framework that's based on our faith. And at least to my reading, like, at the heart of Christianity is, like, actually other centered love that I'm choosing what's best for you, not for me. And so I I think that informs our shared living and our commitment to one another as well. And there are benefits for me, but, like, I also I wanna love and I wanna serve you and your kids and Deborah. And I think that really is like our starting place as a house.

是的。再说一次，必须有一个超越自身的共同愿景，否则你为什么要这么做呢？有很多天或很多周你并不想要它，你想去别的地方。以我的性格，我经常这样想。比如，因为天气冷，我就想搬到佛罗里达去。

Yeah. Again, I there has to be a shared vision outside of yourself or else why else would you be doing it? There's many days or weeks where you don't want it, you want to be somewhere else. I mean, happens to me all the time just because of my personality. Like, I want go move to Florida because it's cold.

你知道，冬天我说过多少次这话。但如果没有那个超越自身的更大共同愿景，这最多维持一两年。因为总会有别的事情发生，你知道，你会找到理由逃离。我认为很容易把社区变成一个理论概念。通过与他人同住，包括Luke和Deborah，我学到的是，社区在现实生活中是一件非常具体的事情。

You know, I can't tell you how many times I say that in the winter. But without that shared vision of something bigger outside of you, it's not going to last more than a year or two. Because like there's going be something else, you know, you're going to find a reason to escape. I think it's really easy to make community a theoretical concept. What I've learned about community through living with others, including Luke and Deborah, is that community is a real granular thing in real life.

它是你每天相处的人，你如何与他们互动，你对他们有多用心，它实际上不是自然而然的。建立真正的社区不是一种意识形态，而是一种实践。这不仅适用于我们的家，也适用于我其他的友谊。比如我想在这个家之外拥有终身的友谊，我就必须花时间与那些人相处，否则我们实际上并不亲近。

It's the people you're with on a daily basis, how you interact with them, it's how intentional you are with them, and it doesn't actually come naturally. Building real community is like not an ideology, it's a practice. And that goes for our house but that also goes with my other friendships. Like I want to have lifelong friendships outside of this house and I have to spend time with those people or else we're not actually close.

你们还能想象出任何情况下，你们中会有人想搬出去，或者两个人想搬出去吗？

Can you all still imagine any scenarios where one of you would wanna move out or two of you would wanna move out?

我的意思是，我想如果有人得到了一个千载难逢的工作机会去了别的地方，我们讨论过的一件事是，随着孩子们长大，他们现在共用一个房间，到某个时候他们需要不再共用房间，那么我们会不会买不同的房子？我们会不会需要分道扬镳？比如怎么办？

I mean, I guess if somebody got a job once in a lifetime opportunity somewhere else, something that we have talked about is that as the kids get older, they are sharing a room right now, at some point they'll need to not share a room together and so would we buy a different house? Would we maybe need to go our separate ways? Like what?

最初，当我们决定一起做这件事时，我们签了一份三年合同。现在我们已经过了那个三年期限，每年五月我们会进行一次静修，讨论未来以及接下来一年的规划和我们的时间表。所以我认为我们每年都有机会重新审视这个问题。

Initially, when we decided to do this together, we signed a three year contract. And now we essentially now we're past that three year mark and we have a retreat every year in May where we talk about the future and sort of what the next year looks like and what our timeline is. So I think we just have this opportunity to revisit that every year.

我们中有几个人的职业生涯其实是有时间限制的。所以，我的意思是，我们公开讨论过这个问题。这并不像是什么房间里的大象或难以启齿的事。

There's kind of a running clock on a couple of our careers. So, I mean, we've talked about that openly. It's not like a elephant in the room or something.

如果真有人想搬出去，你们觉得你们会怎么处理？

And how do you how do you think you guys would approach it if somebody did wanna move out?

所以这是我们在真正一起买房之前确保彻底解决的问题之一。我们会请人对房子进行独立评估。如果有一对夫妇想留在房子里，他们有机会买断另一对的份额。如果那不可能，或者另一对不愿意，那么我们要么卖掉房子然后平分收益——我想现在我们的权益是五五开，我们也可以把房子租出去，平分租金收入。就是这些选项中的一个。

So this was one of the things that we made sure that we really ironed out before we actually bought the house together. We would have the house, you know, independently appraised. If there's one couple that wants to stay in the house, they would have an opportunity to actually buy the other couple out. If that's not possible or they didn't, you know, the other couple didn't want to, then we would either sell the house and just split the I think right now our equity would just be $50.50, while we could also, you know, rent the house out and split the proceeds from the rent as well. So one of those options.

你会推荐你们的选择给其他人吗？

Would you recommend your choice to other people?

绝对是的。我认为他们需要经历这个过程。

Absolutely. Yeah. I think they need to go through the process.

是的，我也这么认为。我觉得你真的需要，你知道，权衡代价。你得确保是和合适的人一起。我认为只要你能在财务上信任他们——我指的是总体上信任，但特别是财务上的信任，这是很重要的一部分。你真的要考虑清楚，比如，我们能不能，你知道，就是像收拾东西、洗碗这些日常琐事，你知道，这些是和人同住很重要的一部分。

Yeah, I think so too. I think you really want to, you know, count the cost. You need to make sure you're doing it with the right people. I think as long as you know you can financially trust I mean, trust them in general, but and trust them financially, like that's a that's a big part of it. I think you really have to think about, like, okay, can we, you know, just sort of like the picking things up and the dishes and all that, you know, that's really a big part of living with people.

是的。90%发生的事情，对吧，都是非常日常和平凡的。那些大问题只是偶尔才会出现。

Yeah. 90% of what goes on, right, is very day to day and very mundane. The big questions only come up, like, so often.

当有人在你家里放了麦克风并向他们提问时。

When someone puts microphones in your house and asks them to you.

没错。你知道，我嫁给了一个强烈的内向者，他大部分时间都喜欢待在他的男人洞穴里。卢克并不是唯一一个承担我社交需求负担的人，有一屋子的人可以分担，总是有人愿意做点什么，你知道，或者一起玩。所以

Right. You know, I married a strong introvert who would like to be in his man cave most of the time. Luke is not the only one bearing the burden of kind of my social needs, that there's like a whole house of people to share that and there's always someone up for doing something, you know, or hanging out. And so

玛丽·哈利。

Mary Haley.

尤其是尤其是玛丽

Especially especially Mary

海莉，四岁了。所以，是的，那部分，那种社交环境就是与人同住的一大好处和优势。

Haley, who's four. And so, yeah, that part of it, the kind of social environment is just such a benefit, a pro of living with other people.

贝卡，我同意黛博拉的观点。我觉得生活中确实需要不同的人来扮演不同的角色。我的伴侣乔实际上对我说过，他很感激我有像你们这样的工作朋友，因为当我试图告诉他工作中的故事时，有时候他不认识所有的人物，也不太了解媒体行业。所以他说，我很高兴你有这些人可以聊这些事。是的。

Becca, I agree with Deborah. Like, I do think you need different people to fill different roles in your life. And Joe, my partner, has actually expressed to me that he is grateful for my work friends like you because when I try to tell him stories from work, sometimes, like, he doesn't know all of the characters. He doesn't really understand, like, the media industry. And so he said, you know, I'm really glad that you have these people to talk about this Yeah.

这让我想起了一个叫做'全有或全无婚姻'的概念，来自心理学家伊莱·芬克尔。他的理论是，人们现在对婚姻的期望比以前更高了。你知道，很久以前，婚姻基本上是一种财务安排。对吧？然后我们在此基础上还想要爱情。

It it reminds me of a concept called the all or nothing marriage, which comes from this psychologist, Eli Finkel. And he's kind of theorizing that people just expect even more from their marriages than they used to. Like, way back when, you know, it was basically a financial arrangement. Right? And then we wanted love on top of that.

现在我们甚至在此基础上还想要自我实现，通过这段关系成为最好的自己。如果那个人就是你的一切，那可能会非常孤立。

And now we even want like self actualization on top of that and to become our best selves through this relationship. And it could be very isolating if that one person is your sort of be all end all.

是的。你知道，我小时候住在一个多代同堂的房子里，我的姑姑和叔叔每个周末都会来。有很多人满足我小时候的情感需求，不仅仅是我的父母。所以每当我在朋友家看到只有两个父母和一个孩子坐在餐桌旁时，我总是对我家那种截然不同的情况很感兴趣，每个周末都像是一场混乱的自助餐式的晚餐。听起来很有趣。

Yeah. You know, I grew up in a multigenerational house as a kid, and my aunt and uncle would come over every weekend. And there were lots of people meeting my emotional needs as a kid, not just my parents. So whenever I saw just two parents and a kid at a dinner table at my friend's houses, I was always interested in the sort of stark difference with my family that was sort of a chaotic buffet style mess of a dinner every weekend. It sounds fun.

确实是的。但我意识到，当期望一个人或仅仅两个人来填补一个大家庭或扩展人际网络所能做的事情时，这完全是一种不同的设置。嗯。主流美国文化中，浪漫伴侣被期望成为你的一切，这让我觉得很有趣。

It was. But I realized it's just a totally different setup when one person or just two people are expected to fill in the gaps of what an extended family or an extended network of people can do. Mhmm. It is interesting to me that in mainstream American culture, the romantic partner is expected to be your everything.

是的。比如，帮忙抚养你的孩子，听所有他们不理解的工作故事。对吧。帮你做家务，他们是你看演唱会、看电影以及做任何事的首选伙伴。对一段关系来说，要承担的东西实在太多了。

Yeah. Like, help raise your kids and hear all of your work stories that they don't understand. Right. Help you around the house, and they're your go to person for every concert and movie and anything that you do. It's just a lot for one relationship to hold.

这对任何人来说都是很大的负担要求。

It's a lot of weight to ask for from anybody.

实际上，研究表明，依靠不同的人来满足不同的情感需求可能更有利于人们的幸福感。

And actually, it's been shown that relying on a variety of people to meet different emotional needs can be better for people's well-being.

回到你之前的问题，你知道，就像在我们这条街的这一侧，大概有三四个共享的、跨代的生活安排。跨代安排，无论是家庭还是其他形式。其实这并不奇怪，你知道的。

To get back to your earlier question, you know, there's like just on our block on this side, there's like three or four shared, living arrangements Intergenerational. Intergenerational arrangements, whether it's family or otherwise. It's actually not that weird, you know.

是的。如果我想试探一个朋友看看他们是否愿意接受这个想法，我应该怎么开启这个话题呢？

Yeah. If I wanna suss out a friend to see if they'd be down for this, like, how should I approach the conversation?

我觉得你应该把它变成一种赞美。比如：我一直在考虑有意向地过社群生活，当我想到这个时，我觉得你会是一个很适合一起过社群生活的人。我的意思是，我建议人们先要和你的伴侣谈谈。这就是我的想法。

I think you wanna make it a compliment. Like, I've been thinking about living in community and wanting to do that intentionally. And when I thought about that, you were someone that I thought, wow, you would be a great person to live in community with. I mean, I think I would suggest to people like, you you gotta talk to your spouse first. This is what I'm thinking.

你觉得怎么样？你认为这会对我们的关系产生什么影响？有什么好处？不仅仅是你在担心什么？

What do you think about that? How do you think that would impact our relationship? What would be great about it? Not just what are you afraid of?

在这个过程中你们都互相学到了什么？

What have you all learned about each other along the way?

当你与人同住时，你会在看到他们之前就听出是谁下楼。你能辨认出他们的脚步声。你会知道TJ每天早晨下楼时总会先大声叹一口气。

When you live together, you learn who is coming down the stairs before you see them. You learn kind of their footfall. You learn that TJ lets out a large sigh

每天早晨他下楼的第一件事就是叹气。

every morning as he comes down the stairs first thing.

所以你和人们之间会有那种亲密感。

So you have that level of intimacy with people.

我会采取更悲观的角度。

I'll take the more depressing approach.

别担心，正好说到点子上了。你确定吗？

Don't worry, right on cue. Are you sure?

是啊是啊，家里每个人都很震惊。即使你改变了生活环境，你还是原来的你。对吧？所有我曾经纠结的问题，比如和黛博拉住在一起时的情况，嘿，哇，它们依然存在。就像，我还是我，无论好坏，优点和缺点都还在。

Yeah, yeah, everybody in the house is shocked. Even when you change your living situation, you're still the same person. Right? All of the same things that I struggled with, like living with Deborah, like, hey, woah, they're still true. Like, I'm still me, for better or for worse, like positives and negatives.

我觉得总会有那种诱惑，就像TJ说的，想要逃避，比如搬到别处去，进入一个新的环境然后我就会变成一个新人。但其实不会。你会进入一个新环境，但你还是原来的那个你。所以那个新环境到底适不适合搬进去呢？

I I think there's always that temptation, like TJ said, to escape, to, like, move somewhere else, to, like, enter a new situation and then I'll be a new person. Like, no. You're gonna enter a new situation and you're gonna be the same you that you always have been. And so is is that the right situation to move into or not?

是的。我想我刚刚意识到，卢克和黛博拉比我想象的还要优秀。我不知道怎么说，就像是我对他们有了更深层次的欣赏，这种欣赏是在我们同居之前所没有的。尽管我们有过争执或分歧，但我仍然认为他们是我认识的最好、最慷慨的人之一。

Yeah. I think I've just learned that Luke and Deborah are better people than I even thought. I don't know. Like, I can appreciate them at a deeper level than I could before we lived together. And even though, like, yeah, I mean, we've had arguments or disagreements, I still think they're some of the best, most generous people that I know.

这就像是放大了美好的一面。

It like amplifies the good.

我喜欢这个想法，就像是我们能够选择自己的家人一样。

I like the idea of like, we got to like choose our family.

我不知道。只是

I don't know. It's just

带来了很多快乐。

brought a lot of joy.

朱莉，有迹象表明，除了单户住宅之外的其他生活模式也在我们的文化中逐渐变得正常化。

And Julie, there are signs that other models of living other than single family homes are also becoming normalized in our culture.

是的。因为核心家庭模式有一种特质，会促使人们向内转向，远离更广泛社区的可能性。但如果你希望在生活中有那些额外的支持层次，那么就需要非常有意地规划，以抵抗那种被奉为社会基石的家庭生活模式的吸引力。

Yeah. Because there's something about the nuclear family household that encourages people to turn inward away from the possibility of that broader community. But if you want to have those other layers of support in your life, then it takes some really intentional planning to resist the pull of that model of home life that is really held up as the building block of society.

或许还有一丝叛逆的味道。只是一点点。只是一点点。以上就是本期《如何与人交谈》的全部内容。本期节目由我——贝卡·拉希德制作，由朱莉·贝克主持。

And maybe even a hint of rebellion. Just a hint. Just a hint. That's all for this episode of How to Talk to People. This episode was produced by me, Becca Rashid, and hosted by Julie Beck.

剪辑由乔斯林·弗兰克完成。事实核查由安娜·阿尔瓦拉多负责。工程由罗布·斯默西亚克负责。特别感谢AC·瓦尔德斯。音频执行制作人是克劳丁·阿巴德。

Editing by Jocelyn Frank. Fact check by Anna Alvarado. Engineering by Rob Smersiak. Special thanks to AC Valdez. The executive producer of audio is Claudine Abade.

音频总编辑是安德烈娅·瓦尔德斯。

The managing editor of audio is Andrea Valdez.

在欧莱雅集团，我们在2024年实现了97%的场地使用可再生能源，并计划在2030年2月前达到100%。这就是我们创造推动世界之美的方式。

At L'Oreal Group, we reached 97% renewable energy for our sites at the 2024, and we aim for 100% by 02/1930. This is how we create the beauty that moves the world.