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嘿。
Hey.
我是丹·哈里斯，《10% Happier》播客的主持人。
This is Dan Harris, host of the 10% happier podcast.
世界上有太多坏消息，但有个令人惊喜的事实是：快乐其实是一项可以训练的技能。
There's so much bad news in the world, but one amazing piece of news is that happiness is actually a skill you can train.
每周我都会与顶尖科学家、冥想导师，甚至偶尔与名人探讨焦虑、抑郁、效率、专注力、应对难缠之人、如何开悟、迷幻药物等问题，结合古老智慧和现代科学，帮助你让生活变得更好一点。
So every week, I talk with top scientists, meditation experts, even the occasional celebrity about anxiety, depression, productivity, focus, dealing with difficult people, how to get enlightened, psychedelics, etcetera, ancient wisdom, and modern science to help you do your life just a little bit better.
《10% Happier》播客，即刻收听，各大播客平台均可订阅。
The Ten Percent Happier podcast, listen now wherever you get your podcast.
您正在收听《如何成为更好的人类》。
You're listening to how to be a better human.
我是主持人克里斯·达菲。
I am your host, Chris Duffy.
今天节目邀请到《纽约客》漫画家、作家兼艺术家伊迪丝·齐默尔曼。
Today on the show, we are talking with the New Yorker cartoonist, writer, and artist Edith Zimmerman.
我们将探讨诚实、脆弱与创造力。
We're talking about honesty, vulnerability, and creativity.
伊迪丝是我最喜爱的艺术家之一，她的作品既幽默私密，又充满想象力且平易近人。
Edith is one of my favorite artists because her work is so funny and personal, but also imaginative and approachable.
她的风格独特而富有表现力，画作主题常源于她日常生活中正在思考的问题。
Her style is distinct but impressionistic, and what she draws is often the topics that she's wrestling with in her day to day life.
比如戒酒、育儿，或是探索她的创作抱负与人生理想。
So things like sobriety or parenting or figuring out her creative and personal ambitions.
这些都是非常能引起共鸣的内容。
It's all very relatable stuff.
这次对话也是我们最新视频系列的一部分，这意味着我亲自前往纽约州北部的伊迪丝家中录制了这次采访。
And this conversation is also part of our newest video series, which means that I got to go meet Edith in person at her house in Upstate New York to record this interview.
我们还拍摄了我和伊迪丝一起跑步的场景，讨论了她戒酒的经历，以及她为我画的一幅滑稽夸张的肖像，这些都可以在Ted的YouTube频道上看到。
And we also filmed Edith and me running together, discussing what it was like for her to stop drinking and her drawing a hilarious caricature of my face, all of which you can see online at Ted's YouTube channel.
我认为这段视频是一个非常有趣且酷炫的补充，因为在听完这期节目后，你可以看到伊迪丝的艺术作品和她的生活状态。
I think the video is really a fun and cool compliment because after you listen to this episode, you can see what Edith's art and what her life look like.
所以先听这期节目，然后去看看那段视频吧。
So listen to this, then check out that video.
不过首先，让我们从伊迪丝开始。
But first, let's get started with Edith.
嗯，我从小就画画，大学时还选修了很多艺术课程。
Well, I drew as a kid, and then I took a bunch of art classes in college.
我画了很多肖像画。
I did a lot of portraiture.
我想说是超写实的，但其实也就是普通的写实风格。
I wanna say hyper realistic, but it's just like trying to be regular realistic.
好吧。
Okay.
没什么特别的。
Nothing special.
而且它们都非常精细。
And they were all very careful.
我真的很喜欢用铅笔画肖像。
I really like doing portraits with pencil.
过程中需要反复擦除修改，层层叠加，小心翼翼地覆盖。
And there was just a lot of erasing and erasing and just like layering and layering and and careful careful cover.
效果很不错。
And it was good.
可以说，我在这方面挺擅长的。
Like, I was pretty good at it.
毕业时我已经能画出一些相当出色的肖像作品了。
I did like some really good portraits by the time I graduated.
我原本打算双修英语和工作室艺术专业，但后来放弃了，因为我在想：难道我要靠画画谋生吗？
I was gonna be a double major with English and studio art, but I I didn't because I was like, am I gonna like draw for a living?
嗯。
Mhmm.
现在回想起来这想法有点可笑，但当时觉得完全合情合理。
Which actually sort of like sounds like a joke now, but I think it was like totally reasonable.
所以最近重新开始画画时，我选择了钢笔，因为不想再回到那种极度谨慎的绘画状态。
So then when I started drawing again more recently, I started with pen because I didn't wanna go back to the like extremely careful drawing.
就像在说：希望我不会画错。
Like, I hope I don't get it wrong.
其实从一开始就会画错，但这完全没关系。
It's like, I'm gonna get it wrong right out of the bat, and that's just like, that's gonna be okay.
于是我画了些非常基础的简笔小人。
And I did these like really rudimentary stick figures.
而且我的画还是那么糟糕。
And like my drawing's still like bad.
我是说，你也见过有时候它们看起来还挺可爱的。
I mean, you've seen sometimes they come out kind of charming.
有时候它们简直糟糕得离谱。
Sometimes they're just like absurdly bad.
然后你就会想，哦，抱歉。
And you're just like, oh, sorry.
你会想，你管自己叫艺术家？
You're like, you're calling yourself an artist?
好吧。
Okay.
行吧。
Alright.
那挺酷的。
That's cool.
是啊。
Yeah.
那算是其中的一部分吧。
That was sort of part of it.
就像，对，你就是要坚持这种风格。
It's like, yeah, you just sort of like commit to the bit.
但我刚开始画火柴人或者圆脑袋，带着小脖子和圆圈眼睛的那种。
But I just started drawing stick figures or like ball heads with like little necks and like circle eyes.
然后我就一直坚持做下去，慢慢地它逐渐发展成型。
And then I just kept doing and kept doing it and like slowly it evolved.
现在我感觉自己形成了某种风格，但这完全是无意识的。
And now I feel like I have a style, but it's like none of it was conscious.
这只是自然流露的方式，再加上你不断精进的过程。
It's just sort of like the way it comes out naturally and then plus like how you keep refining it.
我们将稍作休息，但马上就会回来继续听伊迪丝的分享。
We're gonna take a quick break, but we will be back with more from Edith in just a moment.
请别走开。
Don't go anywhere.
我们回来了。
And we are back.
我们正在与伊迪丝·齐默尔曼探讨关于清醒、创造力，以及如何构建一个能让你诚实、脆弱且健康的生活。
We're talking with Edith Zimmerman about sobriety, creativity, and what it takes to create a life where you can be honest, vulnerable, and healthy.
大家好，我是伊迪丝·齐默尔曼。
Hi, I'm Edith Zimmerman.
我是一名作家兼艺术家。
I'm a writer and artist.
我住在纽约州北部，并发行一份名为《绘画链接》的通讯。
I live in Upstate New York, and I send out a newsletter called Drawing Links.
当我思考你的作品时，发现它们非常真实。我很好奇，你是否一直擅长对自己保持诚实？
So one thing that I When I think about your work is your work is really honest, and I'm curious, have you always been good at being honest with yourself?
不是的。
No.
我是说这是个棘手的问题。
I mean that's a tricky question.
这就像是，你觉得我很诚实，对吧？
This is like, you think I'm being really honest, right?
就像，有很多更深层的东西让我觉得，天哪，我们真的要深入讨论这个吗？
Like, there's all these much deeper pockets where I'm like, geez, are we really getting into this?
所以在你可能读过的内容里，很多漫画都取材于我的日记。
So in the stuff that you've probably read, like a lot of the comics are pulled from my journal.
所以我每天早晨醒来都会写日记。
So it's like I wake up in the morning and I do this journal every day.
然后我会把前一天印象深刻的事情画成漫画。
And I do comics about like whatever from the day before stands out to me.
几周后我会回头翻看并发表其中一些。
And then like weeks later I'll go back and look at it and publish some of it.
因为出于某种原因，我就是想分享其中的某些部分。
Because like for whatever reason I just like wanna share parts of it.
虽然我自己也不太确定原因，但就是有种冲动想分享出来。
Like I still am not really sure but it's like this compulsion and I just wanna share it.
因为有时候会觉得，噢这个表达刚好到位了。
Because sometimes it's like, oh I got something just right or I did.
不知道怎么说，就是刚好很合适。
I don't know, something just worked.
但我会反复阅读自己的日记，有时候会觉得，嗯这个确实不错，我很喜欢。
But I'm I go through and I like reread my own journal entries and sometimes I'm like, oh yeah, this is really good or I like this.
其他时候我会想，天哪，我做不到。
Other times I'm like, my god, I can't.
这太糟糕了。
This is horrible.
所以这某种程度上影响了我未来写日记的方式。
So it like sort of informs how I make journal entries in the future.
这真的很有趣，因为我觉得这正是我想讨论的重点，对吧？
It's really interesting because I think that that's a lot of what I wanna talk about, right?
就像是那种想要分享的冲动。
It's like kind of that compulsion to share.
你如何找到那条界线，区分哪些是你想公开的内容，哪些是你不想
How do you find the line where between like something where you're like, I want this to be out there versus something that you don't want to
公开的？
be there?
嗯，我觉得真实性非常重要，诚实因此变得至关重要。
Well it feels very important that it be true, which I feel which is like the honesty therefore is like imperative.
有时候有些事是真实的，但很丑陋。
And sometimes there's stuff that's honest but it's like ugly.
我就会想，我不会分享那个。
And I'm like, I'm not gonna share that.
比如，那会让我看起来不好。
Like, doesn't make me look good.
我希望它是真实的，能如实反映我的经历，同时也能让别人感到被尊重，因为我真的尽量避免把任何人描绘成负面形象。
It's like I want it to be real and to kind of come across as the way I experienced it and to be flattering to other people because like I'm never I like really try not to portray anybody in a negative light.
我会私下里发发牢骚，但我尽量不公开发表任何关于他人的负面言论。
Like I'll kind of like rant privately but I'll never I try not to publish anything negative about anybody.
我也是每天写日记的。
So I journal every day too.
我有个朋友每天都写日记，然后他们会销毁写的内容。
I have a friend who journals every day, and then they destroy what they journaled.
我记得他们以前是真的把写好的纸页烧掉，现在他们用电子方式写日记然后直接删除。
Like some I think they used to like literally burn the pages that they wrote, and now they journal electronically and then just delete.
他们是
And they're
这种做法的狂热支持者。
like a huge proponent of this.
好吧。
Okay.
这不是我的做法。
That's not how I do it.
是啊。
Yeah.
因为我想保存自己的经历，但有时我会想：我是为自己写日记，还是为读者写？那个读者又是谁？
Because I want to preserve the things that I'm experiencing, but I sometimes wonder like am I journaling for me or am I journaling for an audience, and who is that audience?
我在想，如果你真的是为某个
And I wonder how that's changed it for you if you literally are doing it for an
读者而写，这对你来说会有什么不同。
audience.
是啊。
Yeah.
嗯，这某种程度上算是问题的核心所在。
Well, it's that's kind of like the crux of well one issue for me.
我是说，所以我开始记这个日记。
I mean, so I started this journal.
日记本是用来写文字的，后来我又开了第二本专门画图的本子。
The journaling was just regular writing and then I was starting a second journal where I was doing just drawings.
渐渐地，文字和图画就融合成了我每天创作的日记漫画。
And eventually the writing and the drawings became like journal comics that I do every day.
时不时会有那么三格漫画，画出来的效果让我特别满意。
And every so often I was like, man, these three panels came out in a way that I like really pleased me.
于是我就开了个私人Instagram账号，只加了我手动添加的23个好友。
And so I started a private Instagram account just to like my 23 friends that I like manually signed up for it.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
我当时就想，我就想给你们看看这个瞬间，可能因为我当时特别孤独，或者正在经历一段艰难时期什么的。
I was like, I just wanna show you guys like this moment because I think I was like really lonely or something or I was going through sort of a rough it just whatever.
就像我只是想分享些小片段。
Like I just wanted to they were just little snippets.
那些画面就是能恰到好处地呈现出来。
It would just come out just right.
总之，我开始在Instagram上分享，然后事情就像滚雪球一样发展，最后我允许任何认识的人申请关注我。
Anyway, so I was sharing it on Instagram and then that kind of snowballed and eventually I like I was letting anyone who knew me follow me if they requested it.
然后我把所有那些漫画放在了新闻简报里，而不是Instagram上。
And then I put all those comics in a newsletter instead of on Instagram.
它被推荐到了各个地方，就像其他人在推广它一样。
And it got recommended places, like other people were kinda promoting it.
然后它开始变得越来越大。
And then it started to get like bigger and bigger.
我是说，它并不是特别庞大，但已经足够大了。
I mean, it's not like huge or anything, but it got big enough.
然后我就想，我要为此收费。
And then I was like, I'm gonna charge money for it.
这将是我的工作。
This will be my job.
我要靠我的漫画养活自己。
I'm gonna get like, I'll support myself with my cartoons.
就像，这是一个梦想，我只需要过我的生活，然后写下这些关于它的小而迷人的故事。
Like, this is a dream and I just have to live my life and then write these little charming stories about it.
但关于钱的事情并没有像我想象的那样顺利，因为我有一个想要达到的目标，但我没有在预期的时间内实现它。
And but like the money stuff didn't really work out the way I thought it was going to because I had this like goal I wanted to hit and then I just like didn't get there in the time I thought I was gonna get there.
而且我有一笔积蓄用来实现这个目标，但结果真的很令人失望。
And also like I had a certain amount of savings that I was using to get to this place and then it just like wasn't it was really disappointing.
与此同时，这就是我的真实生活。
And like meanwhile like this is my real life.
我在展示我生活中的真实故事，但这些故事某种程度上追上了我。
Like I'm showing real stories for my life but this like it sort of caught up with me.
我这样想象它，虽然听起来有点俗，但它就像潮汐。
The way I visualize it is like it was kinda it sounds kinda cheesy, but it's like the tide.
就像你有点随波逐流，你是真实的还是在编造内容与人分享？
Like you're kind of running with the water a little bit and like, are you being real or are you making stuff up to share with people?
比如你会考虑人们看到这些时会怎么想吗？
Like are you thinking about what people are gonna think when they see this?
还是你真的只是在日记里与自己分享私人想法？
Or are you really just sharing your private thoughts with yourself in your journal?
保持两者之间的距离确实有帮助。
And it helped to have some distance between the two.
但最终在这个第一版通讯里，我发现自己坐下来了。
But eventually with this sort of first iteration of the newsletter, I found I was sitting down.
我好像已经没故事可讲了，但我知道应该发布些内容，因为有人为此付费。
I had like kind of run out of stories, but like I knew I was supposed to post something in my newsletter because there were people who were paying for it.
就像你知道的，听人们说'没关系'那样。
And it's like, you know, you hear people being like, yeah, it's okay.
随时发布都可以。
It can come out whenever.
那些支持你的人，他们只是想表达支持。
Like the people who are supporting you, they like they just wanna know they're supporting you.
我就想，是啊，但这是我创造的产品。
I'm like, yeah, but this is a product I'm creating.
我告诉过人们我会每周发X次或每周一次之类的。
Like I told people I was gonna send it like x amount of times a week or once a week or whatever.
就像我已经两周没发过东西了，这确实是个问题。
Like I just haven't sent it for two weeks, like this is a problem.
总之，我会坐下来想：好吧，我得写个关于我生活的迷人故事，让大家喜欢。
Anyway, I'd be sitting down like okay, I have to write like a charming story about my life that people are gonna love.
就像他们喜欢那篇关于狗的故事一样。
Like they loved the one about the dog.
那篇确实挺可爱的。
Like that one was cute.
所以不要写你对你丈夫有多生气，或者不要写这个那个的。
Like so don't write about how you're mad at your husband or don't write about like or don't da da da da.
总之，事情就开始变得困难起来。
Anyway, so it just started to like just was difficult.
然后我给所有人都退了款。
And I refunded everybody.
我直接关停了通讯服务，给所有人退了款，差不多算是放弃了。
I just like kind of shut off the newsletter and I refunded everybody and just like quit kind of.
但我继续在写日记。
And I kept doing the journal.
我只是有两年没发表，其实一直在私下为自己写，直到去年秋天才重新开始，因为我觉得有了些距离感，而且我想做这件事，还给自己想了个全新的商业点子——不再要求人们为通讯付费。
I just like didn't publish for two years and then, I mean I was just doing it privately for myself and then I restarted it last fall just because I felt like there was some distance and I wanted to do it and I had this whole new like business idea for myself which was that I would not ask people to pay for the newsletter.
相反，我会把它当作宣传我其他业务的工具，比如贺卡和艺术印刷品。
I would instead use it as an advertising device for my other realm, like my greeting cards and my art prints.
因为我当时想：哦，我要认真把自己当个艺术家对待了。
Because I was like, oh, I'm gonna take myself seriously as an artist.
人们会购买我的艺术作品。
People will buy my art.
这才是我想要的。
Like that's what I want.
我不希望他们订阅我的故事。
I don't want them to subscribe to my stories.
我希望他们购买我的艺术，因为我现在是一名艺术家了。
I want them to buy my art because I'm an artist now.
现在这份通讯的模式是：我先写日记内容，两个月后再整理发布。
So the version of the newsletter now is I write the journal stuff and then two months later I look through it and I publish stuff.
这样的缓冲期似乎足够让我保持纯粹为自己写日记的初心，同时屏蔽掉那些'粉丝会喜欢看什么故事'的声音。
And that has seemed like enough of a cushion that I can maintain the integrity of just journaling for myself and kind of silence the voice that's like, what's gonna be a good story for your fans?
嗯。
Mhmm.
我发现自己有时写着写着就会想，这种东西绝对不能发表。
And I find myself like writing something and it's like kind of I'm like, I could never publish this.
这种内容有什么值得追更的？
Like what's the point of even following this thread?
但就是很重要。
It's like, it's important.
我必须得把这些写出来。
I have to I have to just get this out.
我必须让思绪自然流淌地写下去。
I have to like just write whatever comes out.
似乎存在这样几条线索：诚实、创造力，还有脆弱性，同时也在摸索对每个人而言这些特质的适当程度，尤其是当事情公开时。
It seems like there's these threads of like honesty and like creativity and then also vulnerability and like figuring out what the right level of those each is for you, especially when something is public.
因为我觉得，即使当你描述‘我感觉这样不对，所以我完全停止了做这件事’时。
Because I think that even when you're describing I didn't feel like this was right, so I stopped doing it entirely.
我给所有人都退了款。
I refunded everyone.
这在我看来就是对自己诚实。
That's kind of to me being honest with yourself.
就像‘这就是我的感受’。
Like this is how I'm feeling.
是的。
Yeah.
而且这是不可持续的。
And this is not sustainable.
你生命中有没有过更难对自己诚实的时期？
Have there been times in your life where you were, it was harder for you to be honest with yourself?
我首先想到的是，我曾经酗酒很严重很长时间，我知道那太过分且对我有问题，但我当时想‘可这是我唯一喜欢的事，所以我不打算戒酒’。
The first thing that comes to mind is like I drank really heavily for a really long time, and I was I knew it was too much and a problem for me, but I was like, yeah, but like, it's the only thing I like, so I'm not gonna like stop drinking.
尽管它明显在毁掉我的生活，却也是我唯一享受的事。
It's like even though it's clearly like ruining my life, it's also the only thing I enjoy doing.
那我该怎么办呢？
So like what am I supposed to do here?
我觉得我可能给人非常诚实的印象，但我生命中确实有过连正视都不敢的整个情境。
I feel like I I maybe I come across as really honest, but I think there's been times in my life where there's just like entire situations that I can't even look at.
直到后来我才能坦然面对，最终我能够诚实地看待它们了？
And only later can I be like, okay, eventually I was able to like be honest about them?
但在当时它们就是太过沉重。
But in the moment they're just like way too big.
我甚至不知道，也许我现在正经历其中一个阶段，而我无法应对。
And I don't even know, like maybe I'm going through one of them now and I can't.
不是故作神秘，但有时候我甚至无法直视它。
Not to be like mysterious, but it's like sometimes I can't even look at it.
总之，我曾经是个中度问题饮酒者，持续了相当长一段时间。
But anyway, so was like a very, I don't know, like medium problematic drinker for like kind of a long time.
大概有七年时间我都心知肚明。
Like for probably like seven years I knew.
我知道这样不好，但我当时真的无力应对，因为还没准备好。
I was like, this is not good, but like I can't really handle this right now because I'm just like not equipped.
然后某天我突然就戒酒了。
And then like one day I was, and then I stopped drinking.
但你一直非常公开地谈论戒酒，不仅为自己，也为他人创造了讨论戒酒话题的空间。
But you've also been really public about sobriety and also like about creating a space not just for yourself but for other people to write about sobriety and to talk about it.
我现在为一份关于戒酒的通讯画插画，还发表过关于戒酒的文章。
I write now for I do illustrations for a newsletter about sobriety and I've like published stories about sobriety.
就我个人而言，我也不喝酒。
I just think like for myself, I also don't drink.
有时我觉得很难宣称自己戒酒了。
And sometimes I feel like it's hard to claim sobriety.
并非因为我仍在饮酒或吸毒，而是因为我未曾经历过戏剧性的低谷时刻。
Not because I drink or do drugs still, but it's like because I didn't have a dramatic rock bottom moment.
我感觉自己不喝酒后更喜欢自己了，而且我现在保持清醒有多种原因。
I feel like I don't drink and I like myself more, and there's all sorts of reasons why I am sober now.
所以有时我觉得声称这点很奇怪，但总而言之，我认为诚实对我来说是重要的一环。
So sometimes I think it's weird for me to claim it, but all of which is to say I think a big piece for me though was about honesty.
你不喜欢自己的感受，也不喜欢正在做的事，却依然在做。
You don't like the way you feel, and you don't like the things that you are doing, and you are doing it anyway.
是啊。
Yeah.
那对我来说是个顿悟时刻。
That was the clarifying moment for me.
就像是在说，如果你当时诚实面对自己呢？
It was like, if you just were honest?
你本不必这样做。
You don't have to do this.
我认为每个人对清醒、自制和诚实都有不同的理解。
I think everyone has a different relationship to like sobriety, and self control, and honesty.
你与这些东西的关系是怎样的？
What was your relationship with those things?
酒精显然正在毁掉我的生活。
Alcohol is very obviously ruining my life.
倒没那么夸张，但也不至于到发生车祸或负债累累的地步。
I mean not that dramatically, but like it wasn't like I was having car accidents and running up debt or something.
就像我的生活慢慢变得极其重复。
It was just like very slowly my life was becoming incredibly repetitive.
没有什么真正有意义的新鲜事发生。
Nothing new was really happening that was meaningful.
我就是感觉很不舒服。
I just like felt gross.
就像我每天都在重复同样的事情。
Like I just kept doing the same thing every day.
就像我以前常做的那样。
It's like the thing that I used to do.
就像是，好吧，出去和朋友喝几杯。
It's like, okay, go out, you have drinks with friends.
谁知道你会遇见谁呢？
Like who knows you're gonna meet?
谁知道会发生什么呢？
Like, who knows what's gonna happen?
谁知道你会说出什么有趣的话呢？
Like, who knows what funny thing you're gonna say?
那会很棒的。
It's gonna be great.
刚开始时就是那样的。
It's just like, it starts out like that.
但对我来说，结局就是独自在家喝了六杯酒。
And then for me it ended like, oh, I'm just like drinking like six glasses of wine alone at home.
它是怎么从那里到那里的？
How did it get from there to there?
对我来说，诚实部分就是当我意识到，嗯，是的，那显然是不好的。
The honesty part for me I think just came where I was like, well, yeah, that obviously is bad.
但问题是，我还能喜欢什么呢，这是我唯一觉得有趣的事。
But it's like, what else am I gonna like, this is the only thing that's fun for me.
我当时就像是同时抓着这两件事，感觉我必须解决这个极其困难的难题。
And I was kinda just like holding these two things that I'm like, I've gotta solve this incredibly difficult puzzle.
就好像在我之前没人处理过这么有挑战性的事情。
Like, nobody else before me has dealt with something so challenged.
然后有一天我突然意识到，不，其实没那么难。
It's like and then one day I was like, no, it's not that hard.
这并不是我喜欢的那件事。
It's not the one thing I like.
我想我只是愿意看看没有它的生活会是什么样子。
I think I'm just like willing to see what life is like without it.
我有本六个月前买的书，它给了我对饮酒的新视角。
And I had this book that I had bought six months earlier that was like kind of gives you a new perspective on drinking.
我读那本书时以为会很糟糕。
And I read that thinking it was gonna suck.
就在同一天，我决定愿意尝试永久戒酒。
Like the same day I decided I didn't I was like willing to try not drinking permanently.
是什么书？
What was the book?
这本书叫《现在就戒酒》，作者是艾伦·卡尔。
It's called Stop Drinking Now by Alan Carr.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
听起来可能有点疯狂，因为他之前还写过一本关于如何戒烟的书。
It's like it sounds crazy because he also he also wrote the book about how to stop smoking.
他还写过一本关于如何戒可卡因的书。
And he also wrote the book about how to like stop using cocaine.
他和他的整个团队创作了这套关于戒瘾的系列书籍。
Like the and he and his whole team have this suite of books about.
但只要你决定相信他们，或者被说服到足够相信他们，核心观点其实是一样的。
But really once you if you decide to believe them or if you become compelled enough to believe them, the crux is the same.
所有这些看似特别、私密又神秘的事情，
It's like all these things that feel so special and private and mysterious.
其实都是成瘾行为，都只是习惯而已。
It's like, yeah, they're addictions and they're just habits.
只要打破这种成瘾——成瘾意味着你的身体已经习惯了，这是一个习惯，一个小循环。
If you just break the addiction addiction meaning like your body's used to it, it's a habit, it's a little cycle.
如果你能解开这个结，并为解开它感到兴奋，就像是在给自己一份特别的新礼物，而不是剥夺什么。你是在给自己更好的馈赠，这感觉，嗯，很棒。
If you just like unravel it and feel excited about unraveling it, like you're gonna giving yourself something special and new instead of you're taking away something It's you like, you're giving yourself a better gift and it's like, okay, cool.
因为我觉得自己不会接受这种想法：'好了伊迪丝，别人都能拥有的东西，你从此不能再碰了'。
Like because I don't think I would have responded to feeling like, okay, now, Edith, you can't have this thing that everyone else gets to have.
你得像被罚出场一样度过余生。
You have to like live in like time out for the rest of your life.
就像，现在我终于可以做到那样了。
It's like, now I can do that.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
但现在感觉就像我进入了专属区域，而那些还在喝酒的人都被罚坐冷板凳。
But now it's like I get to be in the special place, and all the people who are still drinking are in the like time out.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
我完全理解。
I totally understand.
我觉得对我来说最困难的部分在于我是个喜剧演员。
I mean I think that like one of the hardest parts for me was like I am a comedian.
那时候我经常做单口喜剧演出，经常要在那种场合...
I mean at the time I was like doing a lot of stand up and I would like be in places where part of
你什么时候戒酒的？
When did you stop drinking?
我没有确切的日期。
I don't have like a clear date.
至少七年了，可能更久，我觉得可能有十年。
Like it's been at least seven years, maybe more, but I'm like it might be ten.
我经常在这种场合演出，有时候——其实经常——部分甚至全部报酬都是酒水券。
I was often in these places where like some or often actually all of the pay was like drink tickets.
是啊。
Yeah.
所以他们就像是来表演的，然后你可以顺便喝个五杯酒。
So they're like come to do a show and like as a result you can take like five shots.
我当时就说，呃，我可不想这样。
And I was like well I don't want that.
但结果我每周还是有四个晚上会去喝酒。
But I would just like end up where it was like four nights a week.
我觉得最困难的部分之一就是搞清楚我该怎么办。
I think that one of the hardest parts was figuring out like what do I do.
是啊。
Yeah.
因为这在社会上是被广泛接受的事情。
Because it's just like a very socially accepted thing.
就像我手里总得拿杯酒。
It's like I have a drink in my hand.
我们一起喝酒。
We're drinking together.
现在问题变成了：我难道要每晚都喝汽水吗？
Now it's like do I drink soda every night?
这对我来说真的很困难。
That was like a really hard part for me.
是啊。
Yeah.
但我觉得这是事实。
But I think it is true.
至少对我来说确实如此。
At least it's true for me.
不知道对你是否适用，实际上在思考'没有酒精的生活会是什么样子'时，确实需要不少创造力和艺术感。
Wonder if it's true for you is that there actually was like quite a bit of like creativity and like art into like, what does my life look like without alcohol?
而不是简单地随大流，做和别人一样的事。
As opposed to just being like, I do the same thing everyone else does.
而且我认为这确实能引起人们共鸣，因为很多时候人们会说'哇，我想戒酒'。
And I think also that could like really speak to people because a lot of times people are like, wow, I wanna stop drinking.
喝酒多爽啊。
Drinking's awesome.
但换个角度想，就像'哦，我只是开始做大家都在做的事，直到这成了我唯一做的事'。
But framed in that way it's like, oh yeah, I just like started doing what everyone else did until it was just like the only thing I did.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但同时也感觉这完全是我自己的选择。
But it also felt very much like it was my choice.
就像我在和这个具有毁灭性的男友进行一场私密的浪漫体验，天啊。
I was on like this private romantic experience with this destructive boyfriend and like, oh my god.
但其实只是和其他人做着同样的事。
But it was really just like the same thing everyone else does.
是啊。
Yeah.
戒酒后的人生就是，没错，你会有更多时间。
Life post drinking is like, yeah, you have a lot more time.
你打算拿它做什么呢？
Like what are you gonna do with it?
而我又能拿它做什么呢？
And what am I gonna do with it?
我喜欢做什么呢？
And what do I like to do?
我是说，关于这个我已经写了很多。
I mean, I've written about this a lot.
所以有时候当我发现自己总在重复那些观点时，感觉真的很烦人。
So sometimes when I find myself like on my talking points, feel like really obnoxious.
所以我多次写过、画过这个主题。
So I've written about this and drawn about it many times.
但说实话，在我戒酒后，可能就在第二天或当天下午，或者那周内，我谷歌搜索了'人们除了喝酒还做什么'。
But like literally after I quit drinking, maybe even the next day or that same afternoon or something or that week, I googled like what do people do besides drink?
有点像自嘲地想，这他妈是什么情况？
Kind of as a joke to myself like, the fuck is happening?
因为那段时间确实没什么幽默感可言。
Because it wasn't it was sort of like a humorless time.
嗯。
Mhmm.
就像进入第二阶段那样。
Where it's like okay, like phase two.
而且没有答案。
And there's no answers.
对吧？
Right?
就像没有答案一样。
Like there's no answers.
但实际上有个对我来说非常真实却无聊的答案，比如那些十大建议清单：去咖啡馆、去博物馆之类的。
But actually there like was a very boring answer that for me ended up being very real, which was like, there's like top 10 lists like go to a cafe, like go to a museum.
比如，我现在真的在读这个吗？
Like, am I really reading this right now?
其中一条建议是重新发现你童年时喜欢的活动。
And one was like rediscover activities you enjoyed as a child.
我当时就想，是啊，没错。
I'm like, yeah, right.
当然。
Of course.
这就像是，真的就是这样。
It's like, that's like for real.
我还读到一些人的故事，比如他们戒酒后重新打起了篮球之类的。
And I read about people who like, yeah, I stopped drinking and I like got back into basketball or whatever, you know.
就像人们说的，我们确实喜欢这些。
Like people it's like we liked it.
小时候我们又不喝酒。
Like when we're kids, we don't drink.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你知道，我们总能找到享受这个世界的方式。
You know, and we find a way to enjoy the world.
我觉得很多人也常有这种想法，认为毒品或酒精是创造力或变得有趣的关键。
I think people also have this idea a lot of times that like drugs or alcohol are the key to creativity or being interesting.
是啊。
Yeah.
我认为有太多太多的例子，人们要么在最佳状态下创作，要么根本就是在勉强工作。
I think there's lots and lots of examples of people like making their best work or making work at all.
那时候我大概26岁左右吧。
When I was in my I don't know, was like 26 or something.
当时我男朋友的一个朋友在酒吧里听我滔滔不绝，然后他说，'Edith，有些人喝醉后真的很烦人'。
This guy, this friend of my boyfriend at the time, I was like spouting off at the bar, and he was like, man Edith, some people are really annoying when they're drunk.
比如你喝醉时其实更有创造力。
Like you actually are more creative when you're drunk.
我当时就想，我就知道是这样。
And I was like, I knew it.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
但这种情况肯定没有持续下去。
But it certainly did not stay that way.
我甚至觉得当时就不是真的。
I don't even think it was true at the time.
所以，这就是为什么这事很棘手。
And like, that's why it's tricky.
一开始还挺有趣的。
Like, it starts out kind of fun.
你会有过一两次积极体验，以至于后来你都无法对自己诚实，比如现在我真的有那么多积极体验吗？
You have like one or two positive experiences such that like, you can no longer really be honest with yourself later on when you're like, am I having that many positive experiences now?
还是我只是在重复八年前那一两次有效的老套路？
Or am I just like repeating the same thing that worked like eight years ago once or twice?
对我来说有个事实就是，现在晚上11点（或者凌晨1点）我肯定在睡觉。
There is a level of truth for me where I'm like, now at 11PM or certainly at 1AM I am asleep.
以前这些时间我根本不会睡觉。
And I used to not be asleep at those times.
部分原因是年纪大了，但部分是因为喝酒时你会出门，会待到比预期更晚，或者事情接二连三停不下来。
And part of that is just age but part of it is like when you are like drinking you go out and you like stay out past when you would want to stay out necessarily or like things just keep happening and accelerating.
因为我觉得事实就是如此。
Because I think like that's just true.
比如我开始更早入睡，更早起床，有更多时间保持清醒和头脑清晰。
It's like I went to I started going to sleep a lot earlier, and I woke up earlier, I had more time where I felt good and could like be clear minded.
是啊。
Yeah.
这大概是我身上最显著的变化了。
That was like probably the most dramatic change for me.
我也是。
I too.
我九点就睡了。
I'm asleep at nine.
哦对，完全同意。
Oh yeah, absolutely.
我没什么特别的，生活很无聊。
I don't do any like my life is very boring.
就像我们现在在接受采访一样，对吧？
Like we're like I'm being interviewed, right?
那样挺酷的。
Like that's cool.
干得漂亮。
Good job.
我肯定做对了一些事。
I'm I'm surely doing something right.
但总觉得缺少些什么。
But like there's things that are missing.
就像你往一个方向走得太远时，就得调整航向。
It's like you go too much in one direction, you gotta course correct.
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没有所谓完美的生活方式。
There's no perfect way to live.
你只需要做你该做的事。
You just kind of have to do what you do.
我完全赞同。
I completely agree.
比起我戒酒时的生活限制，现在生活中的约束反而让我更感兴趣。
And like the constraints of my current life are more interesting to me than the constraints of my life when I stopped drinking.
我们现在要短暂休息一下，稍后马上回来继续。
We're gonna take a quick break right now, but we will be back with more in just a moment.
我是乔纳森·戈德斯坦。
I'm Jonathan Goldstein.
而在新一季的《重量级》节目中，于是我拿枪指着他，说这不是玩笑。
And on the new season of Heavyweight And so I pointed the gun at him and said, this isn't a joke.
一个在14岁时抢劫银行的男子。
A man who robbed a bank when he was 14 years old.
一位百岁老人重新找回八十年前失去的爱情。
And a centenarian rediscovers a love lost eighty years ago.
一位101岁的老妇人如何能再次坠入爱河。
How can a 101 year old woman fall in love again.
请在您获取播客的任何平台收听《重量级》。
Listen to Heavyweight wherever you get your podcasts.
我们回来了。
And we are back.
你的很多艺术作品，尤其是那些真正引起人们共鸣的作品，我觉得都是关于人们会说很平常的事物。
A lot of your artwork, especially the stuff that really resonates with people, it's kind of about things that I think people would say are like normal.
能稍微谈谈你对这个问题的思考吗？
Can you tell me a little bit about how you think about that?
因为我认为这些限制在很多方面反而成为了你的创作燃料。
Because I think those constraints have ended up being like creative fuel for you in a lot of ways.
是啊。
Yeah.
大部分时候都是无意识的。
A lot of it's just like not conscious.
比如我醒来后就去办公室坐下，拿出笔。
Like I wake up and I go sit down in my office, and I take out my pen.
那时大概是凌晨4点35分。
It's like 04:35 in the morning.
这是我专属的独处时光，因为孩子们应该还在睡觉。
And it's like my special time to myself because the children are sleeping, hopefully.
外面天色尚暗，非常安静，我手边有杯咖啡。
And it's dark outside and it's very quiet and I've got my coffee.
我就随便写下前一天想到的任何事情。
And I just write about whatever comes to mind from the day before.
通常刚开始都会有点别扭。
And like, it usually starts out kind of awkward.
我会想，呃，写什么呢？
I'm like, well, what?
比如，哦，昨晚那顿不错的晚餐之类的。
Like, oh, like, good dinner we had last night or whatever.
然后就会自然延伸出某个主题，比如想起女儿摘了朵花，那朵花让我想起某盏灯，我就这样信手写画，完全跟随创作冲动或手感。
And then and then just like a thread will sort of present itself and I find that I wanna draw about like, oh yeah, and then my daughter picked this flower, and then like the flower reminded me of this lamp, and I just sort of write like I don't know, it's kinda like what I want to create or what my hand wants to draw or what I feel like drawing.
很多时候你们看到的成品只是我实际创作的冰山一角。
And a lot of times like what you see is very little, very small percentage of what I actually do.
绝大部分内容其实相当平淡无奇，真的非常枯燥。
It's like pretty pretty dull most of it, like truly dull.
你的艺术作品取材于日常生活，灵感来自你的日记。
You make art about like everyday stuff, and you take it from your journal.
创作关于日常的艺术是否让你更欣赏平凡物件或平凡经历？
Has making art about the everyday made you appreciate mundane objects or mundane experiences more?
没有。
No.
好吧，告诉我。
Okay, tell me.
比如说，我画了一则漫画，讲我开车带孩子去超市，我们在超市里发生的趣事。
Let's say let's say there's like a comic about how I drove the kids to the supermarket, and we like had this funny experience at the supermarket.
但我并不会因此就迫不及待想再去超市，觉得那里多有意思。
I'm not like, can't wait to go to the supermarket because what a what a good time we had there.
它依然很平凡。
It just stays mundane.
就像，我并没有触及什么宇宙奥秘之类的。
Like, I haven't tapped into any like secret of the universe or anything.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
因为我职业生涯前十年主要是个作家。
Because I didn't I was mostly a writer for like the first like ten years of my career.
但大学时我做了很多艺术创作，喜欢画些小物件，比如给喷雾瓶画肖像之类的。
But I did a lot of art in college and I liked drawing like little mundane things like and and sort of doing portraits of like a spray bottle.
但那只是大学时期的事，没什么大不了的。
But it was just college, no big deal.
但我还是喜欢做那些事。
But I still like doing that stuff.
就像对YouTube视频截图这类东西投入大量关注和细节一样。
Just like pouring a lot of attention and detail into like a screenshot of a YouTube video or something.
我觉得，享受对意外目标或事物的关注本身就是一种美。
It's like relishing attention on unexpected destinations or things, I think is like beautiful.
但某种程度上我也不太确定。
But I sort of I don't know.
有句名言说——虽然我不记得原话——大意是：生命的真谛在于把注意力花在那些本不必关注的时刻。
There was some quote, I don't even know what it is, but it was like something about like the purpose of life is to spend attention at the times when you don't have to.
嗯，我最近一直在思考：很多时候我们行走世间，却很容易对万物视而不见。
Well I think that I've been thinking a lot recently about how a lot of going through the world is it's just easy to not notice things.
就像完全麻木地自动驾驶，这确实很容易做到。但我认为真正重要的是活在当下。
To be like totally numb and on autopilot, and it's easy to do that period, and I think that actually there is something really important about being where you are.
这么说吧——我突然想到了佛教的理念。
I mean this like I came up with Buddhism just now.
你注意到了吗？
Did you notice that?
虽然引用拉姆·达斯的话可能不太准确，但我认为你艺术创作的部分核心就是关于'活在当下'。
I'm gonna quote Ram Dass in like the worst way, but I do think that part of your art is about like being where you are.
我想说，我每天早晨会保持一个半小时的专注状态，因为和女孩们在一起时我从未真正在场。
I would say that it's about being where I am for like an hour and a half every morning because I'm never where I'm at when I'm with the girls.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以我画了一部关于在超市的漫画。
So I I draw a comic about being in the supermarket.
就像当我在超市时，我会想，我们怎么才能离开这里？
Like when I'm I'm at the supermarket, I'm like, how do we get out of here?
比如，他们为什么这么烦人？
Like, why are they being so annoying?
也许我会和他们自拍一张，这样看起来可爱些。
Maybe I'll take a selfie with them so we look cute.
但得拍成那种感觉。
But like, we gotta get it like that.
然后第二天早上我们去了超市。
And then the next morning like we went to this like we went to the supermarket.
我要画的是，就像我在回顾这些时刻。
I'm gonna draw like, it's like I'm looking back at these moments.
我不知道。
I don't know.
很难描述，但确实感觉我无法一直活在当下。
It's hard to describe, but it does feel like I can't be in the moment all the time.
就像我现在做不到那样。
It's like just not I can't I'm not doing that right now.
那不是我的生活。
That's not my life.
但有一段我把握住的时光对我很重要，那时我感到平静，我是说，那种状态之类的。
But there is this time that I've harnessed that's important to me where I feel like quiet and I mean, state, something like that.
这就像某种类似的情况，我在思考这些时刻是如何涌现的，而我正在以一种方式重新观察它们——很多时候我其实并不知道自己在做什么，只是像某种无需太多思考或意图的事情。
It's like something akin to that where I'm thinking about these moments are like kind of arising and I'm observing them again in a way that I a lot of it's just I don't know what I'm doing really, but like something without too much thought or intention.
这就是我喜欢做的事，或者说，拥有这样的时刻感觉很好，让昨天的事情重新浮现在脑海中，然后花
It's just like that's what I like to do or it feels good to have this moment to just like let things from yesterday bubble back up to the surface and take
个
a
几分钟或半小时，就像倾注一些注意力在，哦对了，我女儿给我摘了一朵花。
few minutes or half an hour just like lavishing some attention on like, oh yeah, my daughter picked a flower for me.
我今天要画下来。
I'm gonna draw that today.
或者哦，车里那个东西坏了。
Or oh, that like thing broke in the car.
看着挺有趣的。
It was funny to look at.
我要凭记忆把它画下来。
I'm gonna like draw my memory of it.
我能感觉到你在想，我有什么资格说这些？
I feel you being like, who am I to say this stuff?
就像我自己也没完全搞明白。
Like I don't have this all figured out.
是啊。
Yeah.
我只是想说，是的，我也在努力弄明白这些事。
I just wanna say, yeah, I'm trying to figure this stuff out.
比如说，与那些正在摸索中的人交谈，远比和那些动不动就说‘顺便一提，我今年写了17本书，你可以在《纽约时报》畅销书榜单上看到我’的人更有帮助。我只是想说，我认为这一点真的很重要。
And like, it's much more helpful to talk to someone who is figuring it out than someone who's like, by the way and that's how I've written 17 books this year and you can see me on the entire New York Times bestseller So list is just I just wanna say that because I think that like that actually is really important.
你不必把所有事情都搞明白。
You don't have to have it all figured out.
所以你总有东西可以给予他人。
So you have something to offer.
希望如此。
I hope so.
我是说，当我感到乐观时就会有这种感觉。
I mean I feel that way when I'm feeling optimistic.
其实很大程度上是因为我丈夫让这种生活成为可能。
I mean a lot of it's also like my husband makes this life possible for me.
在我们相遇前我就在做这些事，后来他在经济上支持着我们。
Like I was doing this before we met and then he like financially supports us.
所以当面临‘天啊，我的通讯稿能赚够钱养活自己吗’这种问题时，
So this question of like, oh my God, is my newsletter gonna make enough money to support myself?
我就想，大不了可以搬去和我丈夫住。
I was like, well I can just move in with my husband.
我们过得挺好的。
Like we're fine.
而且我们马上要有宝宝了。
And we're gonna have a baby.
我们要搬到上州去了。
We're gonna move upstate.
我们哪负担得起这个。
Like we can afford this.
我能按自己的方式度过一天，部分原因是因为他在做这件事。
I can spend the day kind of how I want in part because he's doing this.
这很有趣，我觉得我在做自己喜欢的工作，如果它能引起人们的共鸣，我会很高兴。
And I'm not like, it's funny, it's like I think I'm doing work I like, I'm glad if it resonates with people.
我并不出名，也没什么特别的。
I'm not like famous or anything.
我不富有，也没有从中赚到很多钱。
I'm not wealthy, I'm not making a lot of money off any of this.
所以这有点荒谬，但很酷。
So like, there's a little absurdity to this, but that's cool.
但我认为这些都是我现在每天都在认真思考的相同问题。
But I think that like these are all the same questions that I genuinely am wrestling with every day right now.
当生活中有这么多其他事情时，你如何抽出时间进行艺术创作？
How do you like make time to make art when there's so much else going on in life?
一个人怎么能做到那样呢？
Like how can someone do that?
一个人可以做哪三件事来创造一些空间，让他们有实际时间去做那件事？
What are three things that someone can do that like can create some space and allow them the actual time to do that?
熬夜或早起。
Well staying up late or waking up early.
现在白天我有时间是因为我们有托儿服务，但这行不通。
I have time now in the middle of the day because we have childcare, but it doesn't work.
白天我主要处理行政事务，但对我来说，在清晨思绪未乱前工作至关重要。
So like I do more like administrative stuff during the day, but like it's essential to me to work early in the morning before anything enters my mind.
我知道有些人适合晚上，但对我来说绝对是清晨时段。
I know some people it's like that at night, but yeah, early morning hours.
我必须说出来，不然这种想法会一直堵在我心里。
Well, I have to say it because it's just blocking my mind if I don't say it.
不过这事吧，如果你不想做，其实也没人逼你。
But it's like, well if you don't wanna make it, then don't you don't have to.
我觉得很多艺术家创作，纯粹是出于内心无法抑制的冲动。
It's like, I think a lot of people who are artists, they just do it because they feel compelled to.
总有人说'我根本没时间搞艺术'。
So people are like, I just don't have time to make art.
我就想说：你绝对有时间。
I'm like, you just you certainly do.
只要创作欲望足够强烈，你总能挤出时间。
You can find time, if it needs to come out of you.
说真的，这个观点特别重要。
I actually think that's so important.
我一直在挣扎，想成为真正的艺术家。
I wrestle with like, I want to be an artist.
这就是我真正想做的事。
Like I want to do that.
但这需要极强的自制力。
But it takes so much control.
如此强大的自控力和自律才能做到这一点。
So much self control, and so much self discipline to do it.
我经常思考，你不能只是自称医生，但如果我不表演喜剧，我就不是喜剧演员。
I think a lot about how you can't just say you're a doctor, but if I don't do comedy, then I'm not a comedian.
如果我不写作，我就不是作家。
If I don't write, then I'm not a writer.
这才是定义你身份的唯一标准，而生活中还有那么多其他事情时，真正去做需要付出很多。
That is the only thing that makes you that, and it takes so much to like actually do it when there's so many other things in life.
我觉得这正是我现在正在努力应对的自律与自控要素。
I think that's like an element of discipline and self control that I really am wrestling with right now.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我的意思是，我有着不太一样的经历。
I mean, I've just had like sort of a different experience.
蠢话。
Dumb.
所以我不愿对任何这类事给出教条式建议。
Which is why I hesitate to be prescriptive about any of it.
就像那些我曾信以为真的叙事，最终发现并不适用于我。
Which is like these narratives that I thought were true ended up not being true for me.
比如关于饮酒，原以为余生每个转角都会充满诱惑的煎熬。
Like for instance about drinking, thought that like everywhere you turn for the rest of your life is gonna be like this pang of temptation and oh god.
但对我来说完全不是这样。
It's like, hasn't been like that for me at all.
而且就像，哦，那将是最困难的事情，而你却莫名其妙地觉得那一天就是，好吧，我受够了。
And also like, oh that it's gonna be the hardest thing and you're just like for some reason that one day was just like, okay, I'm done.
谁知道未来会怎样，对吧？
Who knows what the future holds, right?
但就像这样，事情出奇地顺利。
But like so that was bizarrely easy.
然后变得困难，因为有时候我的小女儿会在这时候醒来，但对我来说其实挺轻松的。
And then it's difficult because sometimes my older my younger daughter wakes up during this time, but like it's easy for me.
我没有设闹钟，但如果现在必须完成事情的紧迫感是标准的话。
I don't don't set an alarm, but if compulsion, like feeling compelled to make stuff right now is the criteria.
就像，嗯，是的。
It's like so yeah.
所以这有点相反。
So it's sort of the opposite.
对我来说，挤出这段时间并不难。
It's like it's not hard for me to carve this time out.
这也成了习惯。
It's also habitual too.
就像我在最轻松的时候划出这段时间，因为那时候感觉，啦啦啦。
It's like I carved it out when it was very easy for me because it's like, la la la.
我可以直接起床去咖啡馆，想待多久就待多久。
I can just wake up and go to the coffee shop and spend as much time as I want here.
于是这就成了我常做的事。
And so that became like the thing I did.
而现在的情况是，我无法将这部分从我的生命中剥离。
And now it's like, well, I can't take this away from me.
这是我整个人生的基石。
This is the cornerstone of my entire life.
所以就像...
So like.
但我在想，这是否也与你愿意把自己放在优先级列表的哪个位置有关。
But I wonder if it also has to do with something about like where you're willing to put yourself on the list versus other people.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
因为对我来说，无论是写作、讲笑话还是现场表演，这些都是让我感觉最像自己的时刻。
Because for me, like making like writing or telling jokes or performing live, like those are times where I feel like the most myself.
所以每当我抽时间做这些事时，都像是一种提醒。
And so whenever I make the time to do them, I'm like what a reminder.
但对我来说，不安排这些时间实在太容易了。
But it's really easy for me to not make the time.
特别是当你需要照顾家庭，生活不再只关乎你一个人的时候。
Especially when you have like to care for family and it's not just about you anymore.
当你进入需要照顾父母或抚养孩子的阶段时。
When you get to a phase where it's like you're caring for your parents or you're caring for kids.
我的意思是，你刚才提到的那些叙事陷阱——我们很容易陷入关于自我、创造力、身份认同和生活预期的固有叙事，即使它们与现实并不相符。
I mean you were hitting on this with the narratives like it's easy to fall into narratives about ourselves and our creativity and who we are and what life will be like, even if they don't necessarily match up with reality.
是啊。
Yeah.
我认为当你需要对他人负责时，很难挤出大段不被打扰的时间。
I think with when you're responsible for other people it's hard to carve out large chunks of uninterrupted time.
而且我觉得当人们说，比如'我就是没时间做某某事'时。
And I think when people say, like, I just don't have the time to do blah blah blah.
他们其实并没有说谎。
Like, they're not lying.
我是乔纳森·戈德斯坦。
I'm Jonathan Goldstein.
在《重负》新一季中，我用枪指着他，说这不是玩笑。
And on the new season of heavyweight And so I pointed the gun at him and said, this isn't a joke.
一个14岁时抢劫银行的男子。
A man who robbed a bank when he was 14 years old.
一位百岁老人重新找回八十年前失去的爱情。
And a centenarian rediscovers a love lost eighty years ago.
一位101岁的老妇人如何能再次坠入爱河？
How can a 101 year old woman fall in love again?
你可以在任何播客平台收听《重负》。
Listen to Heavyweight wherever you get your podcasts.
你读过这篇关于跑步的优美文章吗？它讲述了清醒戒酒与跑步这种体育活动之间有趣的关系。
You read this really beautiful article about running and how sobriety and this physical activity of going for runs and jogging had an interesting relationship.
能简单跟我们说说吗？
Can you just tell us a little bit about Yeah.
还有我想说，我开始觉得自己像个冒牌货，比如，哦你写日记还跑步而不是喝酒。
Also I just wanna say I feel like I'm starting to feel just like an imposter where it's like, oh you journal and you run instead of drink.
是啊，你和大概50%的人都这样。
Like, yeah, you and like 50% of the population.
不过确实，跑步
But yes, running
那么这其中冒牌货的部分是什么？
Well what's the imposter part of that?
就是，我做的事没什么特别的。
Well it's like yeah, there's nothing special about what I do.
那为什么有人会想跟我聊这个呢？
So like why would anyone want to talk to me about it?
哦，我想我能回答这个问题，就是你不需要这样做。
Oh well I think the answer I can answer that one which is you don't have to.
我愿意。
I do.
我觉得你很特别。
I think you're special.
但我知道这听起来简直像罗杰斯先生的节目。
But I know that's that literally sounds like a Mr.
罗杰斯先生的某一集。
Rogers episode.
我觉得你很特别，真的。
I think you're special you do.
但我确实如此，我的意思是，它适用于很多人这一事实正是我对它感兴趣的原因。
But I do, but I mean really I think like the fact that it works for a lot of people is why I'm interested in it.
这有点像你之前谈到的，关于在生活中做出不仅仅是随波逐流的选择。
It's sort of like what you were talking about earlier about like when you make choices with your life that are not just like going with the flow.
我是说，没人会认为自己是在随波逐流，他们总觉得自己一直在做决定，尽管事实确实如此。
I mean, don't think anybody thinks of themself as going with the flow and just sort of doing whatever everyone thinks they're making decisions all the time, which they are.
比如，我生活中大约90%的时间都在随波逐流。
And like, I'm going with the I'm going with the flow with like 90% of my life or something.
偶尔我会觉得，哦，你知道吗？
Like every so often I feel like, oh, you know what?
我想退后一步，重新调整方向。
I'm I wanna like take a step back and redirect this.
或者，也许我这辈子只做过三次这样的决定，其余时间都在随波逐流。
Or like, maybe I've only done that three times in my life and the rest of it is just going with the flow.
但当你突然有了更多时间，或者当你做出一个小选择，比如‘我其实不打算做这件事’时，设计你的生活就变得重要了。
But designing your life once you suddenly have more time or once you make a little choice where you're like, I'm actually not gonna do this thing.
我认为这非常重要，因为对我来说，戒酒并不难，难的是如何填补因此多出来的时间。
I think it's really important and because for me, like the thing, it was not difficult to stop drinking, but what was difficult was finding stuff to do with the time that emerged.
比如我织毛衣、看ASMR视频、看电视、读惊悚小说。
Like I knit, I watched ASMR videos, I watched TV, I read thrillers.
因为就像你一样，我开始真实面对自己。
Because like you it was like kind of real with myself.
我在想，我到底喜欢做什么？
I was like, what do I actually like to do?
其实很多事我都不太了解，但我知道我喜欢读这些俗气的书、看电视和织毛衣。
And like a lot of it I didn't really know, but I was like, well, I know I like doing these kind of reading these like trashy books and watching TV and knitting.
我不想让人觉得我是经过深思熟虑才做出这些选择的。
I want I don't want it to sound like I've made real choices with myself.
我觉得很多时候好事发生，都是在我认清自己真实动机的时候。
I think a lot of times when good things have happened, it's when I'm being realistic about my motivations.
是啊。
Yeah.
比如现在我的创造力也更好了。
Like, now my creativity is better too.
就是，你得面对现实。
It's like, you gotta be real.
而且我也想向那些认为我做不到的人证明自己。
And also like I wanted to stick it to some people who thought I would probably never be able to.
所以你要学会利用这种不服输的心态，总之就是要顺应自己真实的冲动。
So you're like harness like spite a little bit too and anyway, like you just work with yourself and like your real impulses.
我完全理解。
I totally get.
你明白吗？
Do you know?
当然。
Of course.
而且那种要求每件事都必须完美打包、立刻说得通、动机纯粹的想法，正是很多人永远无法做出改变的重要原因。
And think like the idea that everything has to be like in this neat tidy little package where it like makes sense all at once, and like I'm doing it for pure reasons is a big reason why a lot of people never make changes.
这也是你之前问到的关于跑步的事，那个
This also you were asking about running, and that
问题是：跑步在这其中扮演了什么角色？
was How does running play into all this?
嗯，跑步这件事...现在回想起来确实有点道理。我九年前戒酒，六年前开始跑步，看起来时间很近但其实隔了三年——要知道，三年时间可不短。
Well running was was it it sort of makes sense in retrospect but I stopped drinking like nine years ago and then I started running six years ago and that seems very close but really there's three years Oh, which, you know, is a lot.
所以那时候我体内积攒了大量无处释放的能量。
So like that there was a lot of energy that was just there.
最终通过一连串幸运的契机，我开始跑步了。
So eventually through a very lucky chain of events, started running.
疫情也是个影响因素。
Like COVID was involved.
我之前参加过一个挺不错的健身课程。
I had to found this other exercise class that was like pretty good.
坚持了大概两年，后来疫情导致健身房关闭，我当时想：做什么都行就是不要跑步，因为我确信自己讨厌跑步——跑步简直是最糟糕的运动。
I did that for like two years and then COVID closed the exercise studio and I was like, well, I'll do anything but run because I know I hate running because running is like the worst thing.
我其实尝试过几次。
I'd like tried it a couple times.
对我来说完全不适合，甚至让我确信：虽然我可能适合某些运动，但绝对不是跑步，因为我的身体条件就不对劲。
It was like completely the wrong fit for me to the point where I was like, well, I'm sure that I'd be good at some kind of exercise but it's certainly not running because like my body's not right.
我的跑步姿势从生理结构上就根本不对。
Like the way it moves is just like physically deeply wrong.
就像这件事绝对永远、永远不可能成功一样。
Like it just absolutely never, never gonna happen.
然后，对，风险低得多，就像是，好吧，我就直接走走吧。
And then, yeah, as much lower stakes, sort of like, well, let's just do let's just I'm gonna walk.
疫情期间我会在公园里散步，并加入这个Strava小组，那是一个记录跑步和其他运动的应用程序。
I'll walk around the park during COVID and join this Strava group, which is an app for running another exercise logging.
所以它基本上就像是一个运动版的社交媒体。
So you can it's basically like a social media for exercise.
如果你去跑步或散步，你可以向Strava上所有朋友展示，他们会说'哦，干得好，你去跑步了'。
So if you if you do a run or a walk, you can show it to all your friends on Strava and they'll be like, oh, good job, you did a run.
这就是正向反馈，然后你就开始跑跑停停，走走跑跑，最终就能持续跑下去了。
So that was like positive feedback and then yeah, you just sort of like started running, punctuated the running, walking, running, walking and then eventually you can just like kinda keep running.
我还有个想法是跑步时应该用鼻子呼吸。
I also had this idea that you're supposed to breathe through your nose.
对。
Yeah.
就是如果你不用鼻子呼吸，就像动物一样。
Where it's like, if you don't breathe through your nose, you're like an animal.
你必须用嘴呼吸。
You have to breathe through your mouth.
你必须立刻停下。
You must stop immediately.
好像你快死了似的。
Like, you're gonna die or something.
这种呼吸方式太糟糕了。
Like, that's just such terrible form.
然后我朋友就说，那不是真的。
And then my friend was like, that's not true.
我就说，哦，真的吗？
And I was like, oh, really?
她说，对啊，跑步的时候大家不都是用嘴呼吸的吗？
She's like, yeah, don't everybody breathes through their mouth when they run.
我说，你是认真的吗？
I was like, are you serious?
对啊。
Yeah.
这是真的。
It's true.
就是这样。
So yeah.
所以我也和其他跑步的人一样用嘴呼吸。
So I just breathe through my mouth like everybody else who runs.
我全身都在呼吸
I'm breathing through every
我现在跑步挺厉害的，一直都只能用嘴呼吸。
pretty good runner now and I have to breathe through my mouth all the time.
除了呼吸方式，你跑步时还在想些什么？
What other than where you're breathing, what are you thinking about while you run?
没什么特别的。
Nothing special.
我反复思考，就像在和丈夫吵架一样。
I ruminate like in a fight with my husband.
我会想他有多错，而我有多对。
I'll think about how wrong he is and how right I am.
我不知道。
I don't know.
就像你是个跑步者时，总想说服别人也跑步，但我知道没人愿意那样。
It's like when you're a runner, you wanna convince other people to run but I know that nobody wants that.
是啊。
Yeah.
那是
That's
就像从没成功过。
Like and it's never worked.
就像大家努力了很久，但根本没人关心。
Like everyone's been trying for a long time but like nobody cares.
没人会说，我不是跑步爱好者，我讨厌跑步，但我就是要关注这些自豪的人想分享的文章。
No one's like, I'm not a runner and I hate running but I'm just gonna like pay attention to some of these essays that these like proud people wanna share.
所以我总在试图告诉自己，如果早点被鼓励跑步就好了，但这根本不可能发生。
But so I'm always like trying to reach myself if I could have been encouraged to run earlier, but like it would never have happened, so.
人们总跟我说，跑步时他们会进入一种思维清明、欣快忘我的状态。而我跑步时，满脑子只想着什么时候能停下来。
People always tell me that when they run they like get to a place where like their mind clears and they're in And this euphoric when I am running, I am only thinking about when will I be able to stop running.
就像我跑步时只会想着：跑到那个标志牌就可以停了。
That's like when I run I'm like just get to the sign, and then you can stop.
我走到标志前时心想，好吧就跑到那棵树，但这感觉就像我脑子里在进行一场持续的人质谈判。
And I get to the sign I go okay just go to the tree, but like it is just like a constant hostage negotiation in my head.
你多久跑一次步？
How often do you run?
很少跑。
Very rarely.
好吧。
Okay.
我觉得跑步时我达到了可以无限维持小跑的状态。
Well, I think with running I got to a point where I could maintain a trot sort of indefinitely.
哇。
Wow.
那感觉就像我开启了人生的新阶段。
That felt like I had started like a new phase of life.
因为当人们说'我刚跑了半小时'时
Because when people say like, oh, I just went for like a half hour run.
我就想，你什么意思？
I'm like, what do you mean?
我也是这种感觉。
That's how I feel.
实际上很快，我在几周内就达到了那个状态。
And then very quickly actually, I was able to get to that point like within a few weeks.
就是一直小跑着。
Just like trotting.
我当时就想，哦，现在明白了。
I was like, oh, get it now.
就像你可以继续前进那样。
Like you can just kinda keep going.
我当时就觉得，哦，那种感觉真好。
And I was like, oh, I'm like a it was a good feeling.
所以这些就是一些美好的感受。
So like those are some of the good feelings.
然后你会达到一个境界，不再想着跑步，而是随便想些别的什么。
And then you get to a point where you're not thinking about running, you're just kinda thinking about whatever.
虽然可能会有点疼，但这就是过程的一部分。
And it can kinda hurt, but that's just part of it.
你的思绪会飘到别的事情上。
You're sort of thinking about something else.
你提到戒酒后真的去谷歌搜索过'人们不喝酒时都做些什么'？
So you talked about how after you stopped drinking you like quite literally googled like what do people do other than drink?
然后大约三年后你开始跑步。
And like three years later you started running.
以前主要是个作家。
Used to mostly be a writer.
后来你也开始发表自己的艺术作品。
Then you started publishing your artwork as well.
所以这是个自我发现的过程，不断问自己'我该做什么，该如何安排时间'？
So there's been this process of self discovery of asking yourself what is it that I do, and how do I spend my time?
这个过程是如何持续进行的？你又是如何发现那些值得坚持并成为支柱的事物？
How has that process been an ongoing process, and how has it been something where you've found things and you want them to stick and be pillars?
我只是做我喜欢做的事。
I just do what I like to do.
我觉得这是个很棒的回答。
Think that's a great answer.
我认为这就是答案。
I think that is the answer.
因为我的问题其实是：你多久会弄清楚自己喜欢做什么，又有多久会坚持做下去？
Mean because my question is kind of like how often do you figure out what you like to do, and how often do you just stick to it?
我觉得我想说的和你可能想问的（虽然可能完全不是这样）其实是：如何找到自己喜欢做的事？
I feel like what I'm trying to say and what you're maybe trying to ask which is maybe not true at all is like, yeah, how do you find what you like to do?
以及如何停下来思考：我现在做的事真的是我喜欢的吗？
And how do you take a moment to be like, do I even like what I'm doing right now?
比如我该如何改变现状？
Like how do I change it?
我觉得很大程度上只是运气。
I think a lot of it is just luck.
回顾我自己的经历。
Like looking back on my own circumstances.
这就是为什么我觉得很难给别人建议，因为很多事都取决于机缘和运气，幸运的是我喜欢做的事都比较简单。
That's why it feels difficult for me to recommend things to people because like a lot of it has just been chance and luck and being fortunate that the things I like to do are pretty easy.
比如，没错，我到现在还是喜欢画画。
Like, oh yeah, I still like to draw.
就像我小时候喜欢画画一样。
Like I loved to draw as a kid.
我现在依然非常喜欢画画。
It's like I still really like to draw.
而且我也喜欢写作。
And I like to write.
就像我会写点小东西，画点小画，再写点小文章。
It's like I I do my little writing, and I do my little drawing, I do my little writing.
不知怎么的，就是觉得特别有趣。
And somehow it's just like really fun.
这种感觉从未消退。
It hasn't run out.
我以前都不知道自己喜欢跑步。
And I didn't know that I liked running.
那完全是新发现。
That was totally new.
我原以为自己跟运动无缘。
Like I thought I had no sports stuff.
如果你想找到可能喜欢做的事，有时候想想你讨厌的事情反而有帮助。
If you wanna find stuff that you might like to do, sometimes it's useful to think about things that you know that you hate doing.
比如对我来说，我讨厌跑步，讨厌骑自行车。
Because like for me, I'm like, well I hate I hate running, I'm like I hate bicycling.
所以说不定哪天我会爱上骑行呢。
So like maybe someday I'll get into biking.
我经常思考这个问题，我知道现在的自己与五年前截然不同，更不用说十年前或十五年前了。但我有时会忘记，五年后的自己也将与现在的我大不相同。
Something that I think about a lot with this is like I know that I'm so different than the person I was five years ago and certainly than the person I was ten years ago or fifteen years ago, but I sometimes forget that like the person who I will be in five years is really different than who I am now.
就像我觉得现在的我就是真正的我了。
Like I think like surely this is me now.
是啊。
Yeah.
就像我终于到达了一个可以随波逐流的地方，直到...是的。
Like okay I've finally gotten to the place where I coast until Yes.
直到一切结束。
Until it's over.
没错。
Yeah.
现在我就是我了。
Now I'm me.
答案很无趣。
The answer but the answer is dull.
这就像是，继续不断测试吧。
It's like, just keep testing.
你自以为了解的一切关于自己的事情，很可能都不是真的。
Everything you think you know about yourself is probably not true.
这就像是，好吧真棒。
It's like, well great.
这到底是什么意思呢？
Like, what does that even mean?
就是，我不知道。
Like, I don't know.
说实话，我不知道。
Realistically, I don't know.
我认为这就像是对新体验保持开放并愿意重新尝试。
I think it's just like being open to new experiences and retrying things.
因为有时候情况完全不同，或者你自己也完全不同了。
Because sometimes, like, the situation is just totally different or you're totally different.
伊迪丝，非常感谢你参加我们的节目。
Edith, thank you so much for being on the show.
和你交谈真是非常愉快。
This was an absolute pleasure talking to you.
谢谢邀请我。
Thank you for having me.
以上就是今天《如何成为更好的人》的全部内容。
That is it for today's episode of how to be a better human.
非常感谢我们的嘉宾伊迪丝·齐默尔曼。
Thank you so much to our guest, Edith Zimmerman.
她的通讯名为《绘画链接》，你可以在edithzimmerman.com上找到她的更多作品，包括她的Etsy商店，那里可以购买卡片、印刷品等各种酷炫商品。
Her newsletter is called Drawing Links, and you can find more from her, including her Etsy store where you can buy cards and prints and all kinds of other cool stuff at edithzimmerman.com.
我是主持人克里斯·达菲，我的书《幽默我：如何每天笑更多》现已开放预购。
I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my book, Humor Me About How to Laugh More Every Day, is available for preorder right now.
你可以在chrisduffycomedy.com上找到关于我的书和其他所有项目的更多信息。
You can find more about my book and all of my other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com.
《如何成为更好的人》是由一群极具漫画般魅力的人组成的团队共同打造的。
How to be a better human is put together by a team who are cartoonishly wonderful.
在Ted团队这边，我们汇集了Daniella Balarazzo、Banban Cheng、Michelle Quint、Chloe Xia Xia Brooks、Valentina Bohanini、Lainey Lott、Tenzikasun Manivong、Antonia Lei以及Joseph DeBryan。
On the Ted side, we've drawn together Daniella Balarazzo, Banban Cheng, Michelle Quint, Chloe Xia Xia Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tenzikasun Manivong, Antonia Lei, and Joseph DeBryan.
本期节目的事实核查由坚信诚实与真相的Julia Dickerson和Matteo Salas完成。
This episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Matteo Salas who believe in honesty and truth telling.
而在PRX团队这边，我们拥有音频艺术家Morgan Flannery、Norgill、Patrick Grant、
And on the PRX side, we've got artists of audio, Morgan Flannery, Norgill, Patrick Grant,
和
and
Jocelyn Gonzalez。
Jocelyn Gonzalez.
再次感谢您的收听。
Thanks again to you for listening.
请把这期节目分享给一个你认为极具漫画魅力的人，一个你希望被画进漫画里的人，或者单纯觉得会喜欢这期节目的人。
Please share this episode with a person who you think is cartoonishly wonderful, someone who you would like to see drawn into a cartoon, or just a person you think would enjoy this.
下周我们将带来更多关于如何成为更好的人的内容。
We will be back next week with even more how to be a better human.
在那之前，请多保重，感谢您的收听。
Until then, take care, and thanks for listening.
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