要点：呼吸对心理与身体健康及表现的影响 | 杰克·费尔德曼博士

欢迎来到《Huberman Lab Essentials》，我们将重温往期节目，为您带来最实用、基于科学的心理健康、身体健康和表现提升工具。

Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.

我是Andrew Huberman，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

现在开始我与博士的对话。

And now for my conversation with Doctor.

Jack Feldman。

Jack Feldman.

感谢你今天加入我。

Thanks for joining me today.

很荣幸

Pleasure to

来到这里，Andrew。

be here, Andrew.

你是我在呼吸系统领域以及大脑与呼吸互动研究方面的权威专家，遇到问题我总是第一个想到你。

You're my go to source for all things respiration and how the brain and breathing interact, you're the person I call.

我们不妨从讨论呼吸产生的机制开始？

Why don't we start off by just talking about what's involved in generating breath?

从机械层面来说——这对大家都很明显——我们需要让空气流入（吸气），也需要让空气流出。

So on the mechanical side, which is obvious to everyone, we want to have air flow in, inhale, and we need to have air flow out.

这样做的原因是身体新陈代谢需要氧气。

And the reason we need to do this is because for body metabolism, we need oxygen.

当氧气通过有氧代谢过程被消耗时，我们会产生二氧化碳。

And when oxygen is utilized through the aerobic metabolic process, we produce carbon dioxide.

因此，我们必须清除体内产生的二氧化碳，特别是因为二氧化碳会影响血液的酸碱平衡，即pH值，而所有活细胞对pH值都非常敏感。

And so, we have to get rid of the carbon dioxide that we produce, in particular because the carbon dioxide affects the acid base balance of the blood, the pH, and all living cells are very sensitive to what the pH value is.

所以，你的身体非常注重调节这个pH值。

So, your body is very interested in regulating that pH.

那么，我们是如何产生这种气流的呢？

So, how do we generate this airflow?

我们需要扩张肺部。

We have to expand the lungs.

当肺部扩张时，基本上就像拉开一个气球，气球内部压力下降，空气就会流入气球。

And as the lungs expand, basically it's like a balloon that you would pull apart, The pressure inside that balloon drops and air will flow into the balloon.

这会降低肺泡内的压力，由于此时体外压力高于体内压力，空气就会流入——这就是你扩张肺部、进行吸气时的过程。

That lowers the pressure in the air sacs called alveoli and air will flow in because pressure outside the body is higher than pressure inside the body when you're doing this expansion, when you're inhaling.

是什么产生了这种压力变化？

What produces that?

主要的肌肉是横膈膜，它位于体内肺部正下方。

Well, the principal muscle is diaphragm, which is sitting inside the body just below the lung.

当你想吸气时，基本上是收缩横膈膜使其向下拉动。

And when you want to inhale, you basically contract the diaphragm and it pulls it down.

当下拉时，会对肺部施加压力，促使肺部扩张。

And as it pulls it down, it's inserting pressure forces on the lung, the lung wants to expand.

与此同时，胸腔会向上向外旋转，从而扩大胸腔的容积。

At the same time, the rib cage is gonna rotate up and out and therefore expanding cavity, the thoracic cavity.

在吸气结束时，正常情况下当你处于休息状态，你只需放松——这就像拉紧的弹簧回弹一样。

At the end of inspiration, under normal conditions when you're at rest, you just relax and it's like pulling on a spring.

你拉动弹簧然后松开，它就会恢复原状。

You pulled on a spring and you let go and it relaxes.

这种活动起源于哪里？

Where does that activity originate?

脑干中的这个区域，再次强调，这是脊髓上方的一个区域，它对产生这种节律至关重要。

The region in the brainstem, that's once again, this region sort of above the spinal cord, which was critical for generating this rhythm.

它被称为前包钦格复合体。

It's called the pre Botzinger Complex.

这个小区域在人类中仅包含几千个神经元，位于两侧并协同工作。

This small site, which contains in humans a few thousand neurons, it's located on either side and works in tandem.

每一次呼吸都始于这个区域的神经元开始活跃。

And every breath begins with neurons in this region beginning to be active.

这些神经元最终连接到支配膈肌和肋间外肌的运动神经元，使它们活跃并产生吸气动作。

And those neurons then connect ultimately to these motor neurons going to the diaphragm and to the external intercostals causing them to be active and causing this inspiratory effort.

当前包钦格复合体的神经元结束其活动爆发时，吸气停止，随后由于肺部和胸廓的被动回弹，开始呼气。

When the neurons in the pre blood sugar complex finish their burst of activity, then inspiration stops and then you begin to exhale because of this passive recall of the lung and rib cage.

关于与鼻呼吸和口呼吸相关的膈肌和肋间肌激活机制，目前有什么已知的研究吗？

Is there anything known about the activation of the diaphragm and the intercostal muscles between the ribs as it relates to nose versus mouth breathing?

我认为我们还没有完全掌握这个问题的答案。

I don't think we fully have the answer to that.

显然，鼻呼吸和口呼吸之间存在差异。

Clearly, there are differences between nasal and mouth breathing.

在静息状态下，人们倾向于进行鼻呼吸，因为正常呼吸所需的气流量很容易通过鼻腔来调节。

At rest, the tendency is to do nasal breathing because the air flows that are necessary for normal breathing are easily managed by passing through the nasal cavities.

然而，当你的通气需求增加时，比如在运动期间，你需要移动更多空气，这时你会通过嘴巴呼吸，因为气道比鼻腔大得多，因此可以移动更多空气。

However, when your ventilation needs to increase, like during exercise, you need to move more air, you do that through your mouth because the airways are much larger than, and therefore you can move much more air.

但在肋间肌和横膈膜层面，它们的收缩几乎与口鼻是否张开无关。

But at the level of the intercostals and the diaphragm, their contraction is almost agnostic to whether or not the nose and mouth are open.

我很高兴地宣布，我参与创建的玛蒂娜马黛茶饮料现已在全国范围内的全食超市上市。

I'm excited to share that Mattina, the Yerba Mate drink I helped create is now available at whole food stores nationwide.

本播客的长期听众都知道，马黛茶是我首选的咖啡因来源。

Longtime listeners of this podcast know that Yerba Mate is my preferred caffeine source.

它能提供平稳的能量而不会让你紧张不安，还有许多其他潜在益处，包括帮助调节血糖、改善消化、轻度抑制食欲等等。

It provides smooth energy without giving you the jitters, and it has a lot of other potential benefits, including helping to regulate your blood sugar, improving digestion, mild appetite suppression, and much more.

玛蒂娜是所有马黛茶品牌中我最喜欢的，我尝试过所有品牌。

Mettina is my absolute favorite of all the Yerba Mate brands out there, and I've tried them all.

出于对玛蒂娜的热爱，我决定成为该企业的合伙人，并帮助他们开发了全新的零糖产品线。

Given my love for Mettina, I decided to become a part owner in the business, and I helped them create their new line of products, which are all entirely zero sugar.

这些零糖冷萃玛蒂娜口味非常棒。

These zero sugar cold brew Mattina flavors are fantastic.

我每天至少要喝三罐。

I drink at least three cans of them every single day.

你们经常能在我录制播客时看到它们摆在桌上。

You'll often see them on the table during my podcast recordings.

我绝对热爱这个产品，也很自豪它现在能在全食超市销售。

I absolutely love the product, and I'm proud to now have it sold at Whole Foods.

所以请在全国的全食超市看看玛蒂娜吧。

So check out Mattina at Whole Foods stores nationwide.

它是用最顶级的原料冷萃而成。

It's cold brewed with the absolute best ingredients.

零糖添加，味道却出奇地好。

It has zero sugar, and it tastes amazing.

如果你附近没有全食超市，也可以上drinkmatina.com网购。

And if you don't have a Whole Foods near you, you can also buy it online at drinkmatina.com.

或许你可以带我们了解下你发现的脑中枢区域，包括前包钦格复合体及相关结构，这些区域控制着呼吸功能。

Maybe you could march us through the brain centers that you've discovered and others have worked on as well that control breathing, pre Botzinger as well as related structures.

当我们发现前包钦格复合体时，曾认为它是所有节律性呼吸运动（包括吸气和呼气）的主要发源地。

So, when we discovered the pre Botzinger, we thought that it was the primary source of all rhythmic respiratory movements, both inspiration and expiration.

后来通过一系列实验，我们发现了第二个起搏器的存在，它负责产生我们称之为主动呼气的节律。

And then in a series of experiments, we discovered that there was a second oscillator and that oscillator is involved in generating what we call active expiration.

就是这种主动式——比如我发出'嘘'声时。

That is this active- Like if I go shh.

对。

Yeah.

或者当你开始运动时，必须主动把空气排出肺部。

Or when you begin to exercise, you have to go and actually move that air out.

这组在静息状态下沉默的细胞群，会突然激活来驱动那些肌肉。

This group of cells, which is silent at rest, suddenly becomes active to drive those muscles.

它似乎是面神经核周围区域的一个独立振荡器。

And it appears that it's an independent oscillator in a region around the facial nucleus.

这个区域最初被发现时，我们以为它主要负责二氧化碳感知功能。

When this region was initially identified, we thought it was involved in sensing carbon dioxide.

这就是我们所说的基本化学感受器。

It was what we call essential chemoreceptor.

也就是说，我们希望保持二氧化碳水平，尤其是大脑中的二氧化碳水平相对稳定，因为大脑对pH值的变化异常敏感。

That is we wanna keep carbon dioxide levels, particularly in the brain at a relatively stable level because the brain is extraordinarily sensitive to changes in pH.

如果二氧化碳水平发生大幅波动，大脑的pH值也会大幅波动，用专业术语来说，这会让你的大脑'失调'。

If there's a big shift in carbon dioxide, there'll be a big shift in brain pH, and that'll throw your brain, if I can use the technical term, out of whack.

因此你需要调节这一机制。

And so you wanna regulate that.

在大脑中调节某种物质的机制是：你在大脑中有一个传感器，而其他人基本确认了脑干腹侧表面（即脑干这一侧的部分）对此至关重要。

And the way to regulate something in the brain is you have a sensor in the brain and others basically identified that the ventral surface of the brainstem, that is the part of the brainstem that's on this side, was critical for that.

随后我们在斜方体核附近发现了一个结构。

And then we identified a structure near the trapezoid nucleus.

这个结构在任何神经解剖学图谱中都没有命名。

It was not named in any of these neuroanatomical atlases.

所以我们随便起了个名字，称其为'后斜方体核'。

So, we just picked the name out of the hat and we called it the retro trapezoid nucleus.

如果从进化角度回溯，许多难以理解的事物在观察神经系统进化时就会变得合理——追溯到更原始的生物，它们需要用嘴进食，因此我们称之为面部发育，眼睛在那里，嘴在那里，包含运动神经元的这些核团，它们的许多控制系统就在附近发展起来。

If you go back in an evolutionary sense and a lot of things that are hard to figure out begin to make sense when you look at the evolution of the nervous system, when control of facial muscles, going back to more primitive creatures because they had to take things in their mouth for eating, so we call that the face sort of developed, the eyes were there, the mouth is there, these nuclei that contained the motor neurons, a lot of the control systems for them developed in the immediate vicinity.

所以如果你思考面部结构，周围有许多亚核团在进化不同时期承担过各种功能。

So, if you think about the face, there's a lot of sub nuclei around there that had various roles at various different times in evolution.

在进化的某个阶段，面部肌肉可能对口腔内外的液体和空气流动非常重要。

And at one point in evolution, the facial muscles were probably very important in moving fluid in and out of the mouth and moving air in and out of the mouth.

因此在哺乳动物中，这些众多亚核团的部分现在似乎参与了呼气肌的控制。

And so, part of these many different sub nuclei now seems to be in mammals to be involved in the control of expiratory muscles.

但我们必须记住，哺乳动物在呼吸方面非常特殊，因为我们是唯一拥有膈肌的脊椎动物类群。

But we have to remember that mammals are very special when it comes to breathing because we're the only class of vertebrates that have a diaphragm.

如果你观察两栖动物和爬行动物，它们没有膈肌。

If you look at amphibians and reptiles, they don't have a diaphragm.

它们的呼吸方式不是主动吸气、被动呼气。

And the way they breathe is not by actively inspiring and passively expiring.

它们通过主动呼气和被动吸气来呼吸，因为它们没有强大的吸气肌。

They breathe by actively expiring and passively inspiring because they don't have a powerful inspiratory muscle.

在进化过程中，膈肌逐渐形成。

And somewhere along the line, the diaphragm developed.

膈肌的神奇之处在于它的机械效率极高。

The amazing thing about the diaphragm is that it's mechanically extremely efficient.

如果你观察氧气如何从体外进入血液，关键通道是穿过肺部的膜。

If you look at how oxygen gets from outside the body into the bloodstream, the critical passage is across the membrane in the lung.

这被称为肺泡毛细血管膜。

It's called the alveolar capillary membrane.

肺泡是肺部的一部分，血液流经毛细血管——循环系统中最细小的管道。

The alveolus is part of the lung and the blood runs through capillaries, which are the smallest tubes in the circulatory system.

在这个位置，氧气可以从充满空气的肺泡进入血液。

And at that point, can go from the air filled alveolus into the blood.

关键因素是表面积。

The key element is the surface area.

表面积越大，能通过的氧气就越多。

The bigger the surface area, the more oxygen that can pass through.

这完全是一个被动过程。

It's entirely a passive process.

氧气进入并没有什么魔力可言。

There's no magic about making oxygen go in.

那么，如何在一个小胸腔内获得大面积呢？

Now, how do you get a pack a large surface area in a small chest?

首先从一根管子开始，那就是气管。

Well, you start out with one tube, which is the trachea.

气管会分叉扩展。

The trachea expands.

现在你有两根管子，然后变成四根，不断分叉下去。

Now you have two tubes, then you have four tubes, and it keeps branching.

在这些分支的末端，你会放置一个微小球体，即肺泡，这决定了表面积的大小。

At some point, at the end of those branches, you put a little bit a little sphere, which is an alveolus, and that determines what the surface area is going to be.

这时你就面临一个机械性问题。

Now you then have a mechanical problem.

你有了表面积。

You have the surface area.

你必须能够将其展开。

You have to be able to pull it apart.

想象你有一小块弹性膜。

So imagine you have a little square of elastic membrane.

展开它并不需要很大力气。

It doesn't take a lot of force to pull it apart.

但如果现在将其增加50倍，就需要更大的力量来拉开它。

But now if you increase it by 50 times, you need a lot more force to pull it apart.

因此，那些不通过压缩肺部而是被动扩张呼吸的两栖动物无法产生很大的力量。

So amphibians who were breathing not by compressing the lungs and then just passively expanding it weren't able to generate a lot of force.

所以它们的分支相对较少。

So they have relatively few branches.

如果你观察它们肺部相对于体型的表面积，会发现并不惊人。

So if you look at the surface area that they pack in their lungs relative to their body size, it's not very impressive.

而哺乳动物的分支数量则达到4至5亿个肺泡。

Whereas when you get to mammals, the amount of branching that you have is you have four to 500,000,000 alveoli.

所以你体内有一个相当于网球场三分之一大小的膜，每次呼吸都要扩张它，而你几乎感觉不到费力。

So you have a membrane inside of you, a third the size of a tennis court, that you actually have to expand every breath, and you do that without exerting much of a you don't feel it.

这是因为你有这块神奇的横膈膜肌肉，凭借其位置优势，只需向下移动三分之二英寸，就能充分扩张这个膜让空气进入肺部。

And that's because you have this amazing muscle of the diaphragm, which because of its positioning, just by moving two thirds of an inch down, is able to expand that membrane enough to move air into the lungs.

静息状态下，你肺部的空气量约为2.5升。

At rest, the volume of air in your lungs is about two and a half liters.

当你吸气时，会再吸入500毫升即半升空气。

When you take a breath, you're taking another 500 milliliters or half a liter.

这个体积大概相当于我的拳头大小。

That's the size, maybe a little of my fist.

虽然你只增加了20%的体积，但通过拉动这70平方米的膜，就足以让足够的新鲜空气进入肺部与原有空气混合，使血液中的氧分压从40毫米汞柱升至100毫米汞柱。

So, you're increasing the volume by 20%, but you're doing that by pulling on this 70 square meter membrane, but that's enough to bring enough fresh air into the lung to mix in with the air that's already there that the oxygen levels in your bloodstream goes from a partial pressure of oxygen, which is 40 millimeters of mercury to 100 millimeters of mercury.

因此，拥有横膈膜让我们获得了这种惊人的机械优势。

So we have this amazing mechanical advantage by having a diaphragm.

你是否认为人类大脑比其他哺乳动物更大，部分原因在于我们能够将更多氧气输送到体内系统？

Do you think that our brains are larger than that of other mammals in part because of the amount of oxygen that we have been able to bring into our system.

我认为发展出需要持续供氧的大型大脑，其关键一步在于横膈膜的存在。

I would say a key step in the ability to develop a large brain that has a continuous demand for oxygen is the diaphragm.

没有横膈膜，你就只是两栖动物。

Without a diaphragm, you're an amphibian.

多年来，无论是在瑜伽课上、呼吸训练中，还是网络建议里，人们总说应该用横膈膜呼吸——与其在吸气时抬起胸腔，不如让腹部在吸气时扩张，这样据说更'健康'（打引号）或更有益。

Over the years, whether it be for yoga class or a breath work thing, or you hear online that we should be breathing with our diaphragm, that rather than lifting our rib cage when we breathe and our chest, that it is healthier in air quotes, or better somehow to have the belly expand when we inhale.

我不清楚是否有具体研究真正验证过横膈膜呼吸与非横膈膜呼吸对健康的直接益处。但如果你愿意谈谈你所了解的相关内容，我想很多人会感兴趣。

I'm not aware of any particular studies that have really examined the direct health benefits of diaphragmatic versus non diaphragmatic breathing, But if you don't mind commenting on anything you're aware of as it relates to diaphragmatic versus non diaphragmatic breathing, that would be, I think, interesting to a number of people.

在呼吸练习这类情境中，我对不同呼吸模式的效果持保留态度。

In context of things like breath practice, I'm a bit agnostic about the effects of some of the different patterns of breathing.

显然，不同呼吸方式会通过不同机制起作用，我们可以具体讨论。

Clearly, some are gonna work through different mechanisms and we can talk about that.

但在某些层面，比如是否主要依靠横膈膜使腹部运动，我对此没有定论。

But at certain level, for example, whether it's primarily diaphragm where you move your abdomen or not, I am agnostic about it.

我认为呼吸对情绪和认知引发的变化——关于其影响程度我有不同看法，我不认为这主要取决于你选择使用哪块特定肌肉，当然这可能只是我的个人偏见。

I think that the changes that breathing induces in emotion and cognition, I have different ideas about what the influence is, and I don't see that primarily as how, which particular muscles you're choosing, but that just could be my own prejudice.

能否请你谈谈生理性叹息？已知的研究成果是什么？你对其特别关注的原因是什么？它们有什么作用？

Could you tell us about physiological sighs, what's known about them, what your particular interest in them is, and what they're good for?

事实上我们大约每五分钟就会叹息一次。

It turns out we sigh about every five minutes.

我建议任何觉得这个事实难以置信的人，可以躺在一个安静房间里正常呼吸，完全放松，只需关注自己的呼吸节奏。

And I would encourage anyone who finds that to be a unbelievable fact is to lie down in a quiet room and just breathe normally, just relax, just let go, And just pay attention to your breathing.

你会发现每隔几分钟，你就会不由自主地深呼吸一次。

And you'll find that every couple of minutes, you're taking a deep breath and you can't stop it.

你知道，它就是自然而然地发生了。

You know, it it just it just happens.

为什么呢？

Now why?

嗯，我们得再回到肺部这个话题。

Well, we have to go back to the lung again.

肺部有5亿个肺泡，它们非常微小。

The lung has these 500,000,000 alveoli, and they're very tiny.

它们的直径只有200微米。

They're 200 microns across.

所以它们真的非常非常小。

So they're really, really tiny.

你可以把它们想象成充满液体的结构。

And you can think of them as fluid filled.

它们表面覆盖着液体。

They're fluid lined.

之所以表面有液体，这与肺泡力学机制的特殊性有关。

And the reason they're fluid lined has to do with the esoterica of the mechanics of that.

这种被称为表面活性物质的液体层，使得肺泡更容易扩张。

It makes it a little easier to stretch them with this fluid line, which is called surfactant.

你的肺泡有塌陷的倾向。

Your alveoli have a tendency to collapse.

它们有5亿个。

There's 500,000,000 of them.

它们的塌陷速度并不快，但这种缓慢的速度也不容忽视。

They're not collapsing at a very high rate, but it's a slow rate that's not trivial.

当一个肺泡塌陷时，它就不再能接收氧气或排出二氧化碳。

And when an alveolus collapses, it no longer can receive oxygen or take carbon dioxide out.

这就像是退出了气体交换的方程式。

It's sort of taken out of the equation.

如果你有5亿个肺泡，损失10个没什么大不了的。

Now, if you have 500,000,000 of them and you lose 10, no big deal.

但如果持续塌陷，你可能会失去肺部相当一部分的表面积。

But if they keep collapsing, you can lose a significant part of the surface area of your lung.

正常的呼吸不足以让它们重新张开。

Now, a normal breath is not enough to pop them open.

但如果你深呼吸——用鼻子或嘴都可以。

But if you take a deep breath- Through nose or mouth, okay.

只要增加肺容积，因为你在拉伸肺部，它们大约每五分钟就会重新张开一次。

Just increase that lung volume, because you're just pulling on the lungs, they'll pop open about every five minutes.

所以我们每五分钟就要这样做一次，以维持肺部健康。

And so we're doing it every five minutes in order to maintain the health of our lung.

在机械通气技术早期，用于治疗因脊髓灰质炎导致呼吸肌无力的患者时，他们会被放进这些大铁罐里。其工作原理是通过降低体外压力。

In the early days of mechanical ventilation, which was used to treat polio victims who had weakness of their respiratory muscles, they'd be put in these big steel tubes, And the way they would work is that the pressure outside the body would drop.

这样会对肺部施加扩张压力——抱歉，是对胸腔施加压力。

That would put a expansion pressure on the lungs excuse me, on the rib cage.

胸腔会扩张，然后肺部随之扩张。

The rib cage would expand, and then the lung would expand.

随后压力恢复正常，肺部和胸腔也恢复原状。

And then the pressure would go back to normal, and the lung and rib cage would go back to normal.

但当时死亡率相对较高。

But there was a relatively high mortality rate.

这有点令人费解。

It was a bit of a mystery.

其中一个解决方案就是加大呼吸量。

And one solution was to just give bigger breaths.

他们增加了呼吸量后，死亡率就下降了。

They gave bigger breaths and the mortality rate dropped.

直到五十年代，他们才意识到不需要每次呼吸都加大力度。

And it wasn't till, I think it was the fifties, where they realized that they didn't have to increase every breath to be big.

他们真正需要做的是每隔一段时间进行一次深呼吸。

What they needed to do is every so often they'd have one big breath.

所以你会先进行几分钟的正常呼吸，然后来一次深呼吸，模拟生理性呼吸幅度，这样死亡率就会显著下降。

So you have a couple of minutes of normal breaths and then one big breath, just mimicking the physiological size, and then the mortality rate drops significantly.

如果你观察医院里使用呼吸机的病人，每隔几分钟就能看到膜片上下运动，其中会夹杂一次深呼吸来撑开肺部。

And if you see someone on ventilator in the hospital, if you watch every couple of minutes that you see the membrane move up and down, every couple of minutes, there'll be a super breath and that pops it open.

这就是生理性叹息的运作机制。

So, are these mechanisms for these physiological sighs.

就像肺部塌陷时需要较大压力才能撑开一样，肺泡也是同样的原理。

So, just like with the collapse of the lungs where you need a big pressure to pop it open, It's the same thing with the alveoli.

你需要更大的压力，普通呼吸是不够的。

You need a bigger pressure and a normal breath is not enough.

所以你必须深吸一口气。

So you have to take a big inhale.

当自然完成时，它不需要我们刻意记住去做，而是自动完成。

And when nature is done is instead of requiring us to remember to do it, it does it automatically.

大约每五分钟就会自动进行一次。

And it does it about every five minutes.

我们早就知道可以通过一些方法来改善睡眠。

We've known for a long time that there are things that we can do to improve our sleep.

这包括我们可以摄入的物质，如苏糖酸镁、茶氨酸、洋甘菊提取物和甘氨酸，以及藏红花和缬草根等不太为人所知的成分。

And that includes things that we can take, things like magnesium threonate, theanine, chamomile extract, and glycine, along with lesser known things like saffron and valerian root.

这些都是经过临床验证的成分，可以帮助你入睡、保持睡眠，并让你醒来时感觉更加神清气爽。

These are all clinically supported ingredients that can help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up feeling more refreshed.

我很高兴地告诉大家，我们的长期赞助商AG1刚刚推出了一款名为AGZ的新产品，这是一种夜间饮品，旨在帮助你获得更好的睡眠，让你醒来时感觉超级清爽。

I'm excited to share that our longtime sponsor AG1 just created a new product called AGZ, a nightly drink designed to help you get better sleep and have you wake up feeling super refreshed.

过去几年里，我一直与AG1团队合作，共同研发这款新的AGZ配方。

Over the past few years, I've worked with the team at AG1 to help create this new AGZ formula.

它以最佳比例包含了所有最好的助眠成分，混合成一种易于饮用的配方。

It has the best sleep supporting compounds in exactly the right ratios in one easy to drink mix.

这消除了在众多助眠补充剂中艰难选择、确定合适剂量和适合自己成分的所有复杂性。

This removes all the complexity of trying to forge the vast landscape of supplements focused on sleep and figuring out the right dosages and which ones to take for you.

据我所知，AGZ是市场上最全面的睡眠补充剂。

AGZ is to my knowledge, the most comprehensive sleep supplement on the market.

我在睡前30到60分钟服用它。

I take it thirty to sixty minutes before sleep.

顺便说一句，它很美味。

It's delicious by the way.

而且它显著提高了我的睡眠质量和深度。

And it dramatically increases both the quality and the depth of my sleep.

这一点我既从主观睡眠体验中感受到，也通过睡眠追踪数据得到了验证。

I know that both from my subjective experience of my sleep and because I track my sleep.

我很期待大家尝试这款新的AGZ配方，享受更好睡眠带来的益处。

I'm excited for everyone to try this new AGZ formulation and to enjoy the benefits of better sleep.

AGZ有巧克力、薄荷巧克力和混合莓果三种口味可选。

AGZ is available in chocolate, chocolate mint, and mixed berry flavors.

正如我之前提到的，它们都非常美味。

And as I mentioned before, they're all extremely delicious.

这三种中我最喜欢的应该是薄荷巧克力，但其实每种我都挺喜欢的。

My favorite of the three has to be, I think chocolate mint, but I really like them all.

如果你想尝试AGZ，请访问drinkagz.com/huberman获取特别优惠。

If you'd like to try AGZ, go to drinkagz.com/huberman to get a special offer.

再次提醒，网址是drinkagz.com/huberman。

Again, that's drinkagz.com/huberman.

我们经常听说有人因呼吸停止而死于各种药物过量。

We hear often that people will overdose on drugs of various kinds because they stop breathing.

比如巴比妥类药物，酒精与巴比妥类药物混用是吸毒者常见的致死原因，这类药物禁忌你经常听到名人因酒精与巴比妥类药物混用而死亡的新闻。

So barbiturates, alcohol combined with barbiturates is a common cause of death for drug users and contraindications of drugs, and these kinds of things you hear all the time about celebrities dying because they combined alcohol with barbiturates.

是否有证据表明，在睡眠或深度放松及镇静状态下发生的大小变化能恢复大脑功能？

Is there any evidence that the size that occur during sleep or during states of deep, deep relaxation and sedation that size recover the brain?

因为可以想象，如果某些药物影响了这些大脑中枢导致这种大小变化没有发生，那可能就是窒息和死亡的一个原因。

Because you could imagine that if these size don't happen as a consequence of some drug impacting these brain centers, that that could be one cause of basically asphyxiation and death.

如果你观察任何哺乳动物因所谓'自然原因'走向死亡的过程。

If you look at the progression of any mammal to a death due to, quote, natural causes.

它们的呼吸会逐渐变慢，然后停止，接着会出现喘息。

Their breathing slows down, it will stop, and then they'll gasp.

所以我们有'临终喘息'这个说法，指的是那种特别深大的呼吸。

So we have the phrase dying gasp with super large breaths.

这通常被描述为一种自主复苏的尝试。

They're often described as an attempt to auto resuscitate.

也就是说，通过那种极深的呼吸，或许能重新启动生命引擎。

That is, you take that super deep breath and that maybe it can kickstart the engine again.

我们尚不清楚这种喘息现象在多大程度上属于特别剧烈的呼吸变化。

We do not know the degree to such things as gasp are really size that are particularly large.

因此，如果抑制了一个用药过量者的喘息能力，那么尽管他们本可能通过喘息重新激活呼吸，但这种能力被阻止后，他们就无法复苏了。

And so, if you suppress the ability to gasp in an individual who is subject to an overdose, then whereas they might been able to re arouse their breathing, if that's prevented, they don't get re aroused.

所以，这确实是一种可能性。

So, that is certainly a possibility.

我很想听听您对呼吸如何与大脑其他功能互动的看法。

I'd love to get your thoughts on how breathing interacts with other things in the brain.

众所周知，当我们感到压力时，呼吸方式会发生变化。

As we know, when we get stressed, our breathing changes.

当我们快乐放松时，呼吸会发生变化。

When we're happy and relaxed, our breathing changes.

但如果我们改变呼吸方式，在某种意义上也能调节内心状态。

But also if we change our breathing, we in some sense can adjust our internal state.

大脑状态与呼吸之间存在什么关系？

What is the relationship between brain state and breathing?

这是过去十年里真正让我着迷的话题。

This is a topic which has really intrigued me over the past decade.

在那之前，我只专注于研究呼吸节律是如何产生的，对这些其他方面并不太关注。

I would say before that, I was in my silo, just interested about how the rhythm of breathing is generated, and didn't really pay much attention to this other stuff.

出于某种原因，我开始对这个产生兴趣。

For some reason, I got interested in it.

他们觉得或许可以在啮齿动物身上研究这个。

They felt maybe I can study this in rodents.

于是我们产生了教啮齿动物冥想的主意。

So we got this idea that we're gonna teach rodents to meditate.

你知道，这听起来很可笑。

And, you know, that's laughable.

但我们说，如果真能做到，就能实际研究这个过程是如何发生的。

But we said, but if we can, then we can actually study how this happens.

所以我获得了NCCIH（国家补充医学研究院）的启动基金R21资助。

So, I was able to get a sort of a starter grant, an R21 from NCCIH, that's the National Complementary Medicine Institute.

我必须提一下，这是个很棒的机构。

A wonderful institute I should mention.

我们的政府将大量税收投入到冥想、呼吸练习、补充剂、草药、针灸等研究上，我认为这一点鲜为人知，但政府此举意义非凡，值得肯定。

Our government puts major tax dollars toward studies of things like meditation, breath work, supplements, herbs, acupuncture, this is I think not well known, and it's an incredible thing that our government does that, and I think it deserves a nod.

我完全同意你的观点。

I totally agree with you.

我认为这类事情，包括许多科学家在内，都曾觉得太过玄乎、缺乏依据，但随着认知深入，我们过去对神经免疫学的嘲笑如今看来多么可笑。

I think that it's the kind of thing that many of us, including many scientists thinks is too woo woo and unsubstantiated, but for learning more and more, we used to laugh at neuroimmunology.

我们正在发现许多曾被我们轻易否定的东西。

There are all these things that we're learning that we used to dismiss.

我认为这其中确实蕴藏着值得挖掘的宝贵知识。

And I think there's there's real nuggets to be learned here.

最近我们取得了一项重大突破。

So recently, we had a major breakthrough.

我们找到了一种能让肥胖小鼠进行缓慢呼吸的方案。

We found a protocol by which we can get a weight mice to breathe slowly.

换句话说，无论它们原本的呼吸频率如何，我们都能将其放慢10倍，而它们完全适应这种变化。

In other words, whatever their normal breath is, we could slow it down by a factor of 10, and they're fine doing that.

我们每天进行30分钟这样的训练，持续了四周。

We did that thirty minutes a day for four weeks.

明白吗？

Okay?

就像一种呼吸练习。

Like a breath practice.

对照组动物接受完全相同的处理，只是我们的操作没有减慢它们的呼吸频率。

And we had control animals where we did everything the same, except the manipulation we made did not slow down their breathing.

然后我们让它们接受标准恐惧条件反射测试，这是与我的同事迈克尔·范齐洛共同完成的，他是恐惧研究领域的真正权威。

We then put them to a standard fear conditioning, which we did with my colleague, Michael Fanzilow, who's one of the real gurus of fear.

我们采用标准测试方法，将小鼠置于可能遭受电击的担忧环境中，它们的反应是僵直不动。

We measured a standard test to put mice in a condition where they're concerned that we see a shock and the response is that they freeze.

测量它们恐惧程度的标准就是僵直时间的长短。

And the measure of how fearful they are is how long they freeze.

对照组小鼠的僵直时间与普通小鼠相当，而经过我们实验方案的小鼠僵直时间显著减少。

If the control mice had a freezing time, which was just the same as ordinary mice would have, the ones that went through our protocol froze much, much less.

它们僵直时间减少的程度，堪比对大脑恐惧处理重要区域杏仁核进行重大干预的效果。

The degree to which they showed less freezing was as much as if there was a major manipulation in the amygdala, which is a part of the brain that's important in fear processing.

请允许我在此打断一下，虽然您谈论的是啮齿动物研究，但这类研究能深入机制层面——对于那些质疑'既然已知冥想有益为何还需机制研究'的人...

I'll just pause you for a moment there, because I think that the, you know, you're talking about a rodent study, but I think the benefits of doing rodent studies that you can get deep into mechanism, and for people that might think, well, we've known that meditation has these benefits, why do you need to get mechanistic science?

我认为有件事很重要：首先，实际进行冥想或呼吸练习的人数远低于人们的想象。

I think that one thing that's important for people to remember is that, first of all, as many people as one might think are meditating out there or doing breath work, a far, far, far greater number of people are not, right?

绝大多数人根本不会专门花时间进行呼吸练习或冥想。

I mean, majority of people don't take any time to do dedicated breath work, nor meditate.

因此任何能激励人们参与的方法都很有价值。

So whatever can incentivize people would be wonderful.

另外，关于'达到实际效果需要多少冥想量'这个问题始终不够明确。

But the other thing is that it's never really been clear to me just how much meditation is required for a real effect, meaning a practical effect.

有人说每天30分钟、20分钟，或每周一两次，呼吸练习也是如此。

People say thirty minutes a day, twenty minutes a day, once a week, twice a week, same thing with breath work.

我认为确立改变神经回路的最小有效阈值，才是所有这些实践研究的终极目标。

Finding minimum or effective thresholds for changing neural circuitry is what I think is the holy grail of all these practices.

而这只能通过你所描述的那类机制研究来确定。

And that's only gonna be determined by the sorts of mechanistic studies that you describe.

我认为对许多人来说，其中一个问题是存在安慰剂效应——在人类身上，他们可能对某种干预产生反应，即便其机制与该干预毫无关联。

One of the issues I think for a lot of people is that there's a placebo effect, that is in humans, they can respond to something even though the mechanism has nothing to do with what the intervention is.

因此，很容易说冥想反应中有很大一部分是安慰剂效应。

And so, it's easy to say that the meditative response has a big component, which is a placebo effect.

我的老鼠可不信什么安慰剂效应。

My mice don't believe in the placebo effect.

所以，如果我们能在小鼠身上证明存在真实效应，这将具有无可辩驳的说服力——毕竟无论你做多少人类实验，在人体中控制安慰剂效应都极其困难。

And so, if we could show there's a bona fide effect in mice, it is convincing in ways that no matter how many human experiments you did, the control for the placebo effect is extremely difficult in humans.

在小鼠身上，这根本不是问题。

In mice, it's a non issue.

因此我认为，仅这一发现本身就具有重大的启示意义。

So I think that in of itself would be an enormous message to send.

说得好，这确实是个更犀利的观点。

Excellent, and indeed a better point.

如果我没理解错，这些小鼠每天进行三十分钟冥想——虽然我们并不知道它们具体在想什么。

A thirty minute a day meditation in these mice, if I understand correctly, the meditation, we don't know what they're thinking about.

是呼吸练习。

It's breath practice.

对，所以是呼吸练习。

Right, so it's breath practice.

毕竟它们不可能在想着第三只眼、莲花坐姿或是悬浮术之类的——没人指导它们该怎么做，就算指导了，它们大概也不会照做。

Because presumably they're not thinking about their third eye center, lotus position, levitation, whatever it is, they're not instructed as to what to do, and if they were, they probably wouldn't do it anyway.

每天三十分钟刻意放慢呼吸，或相对于正常呼吸模式减缓，明白了。

So thirty minutes a day in which breathing is deliberately slowed, or is slowed relative to their normal patterns of breathing, got it.

恐惧中枢以某种方式被改变，从而对足部电击产生更短暂的恐惧反应。

So the fear centers are altered in some way that creates a shorter fear response to a foot shock.

对。

Right.

你能否列举一些你实验室或其他实验室工作中了解到的例子，关于呼吸与大脑状态或情绪状态之间的相互作用？

What are some other examples that you are aware of from work in your laboratory, or work in other laboratories for that matter, about interactions between breathing and brain state or emotional state.

我

I

希望大家明白，当我们讨论呼吸影响情绪认知状态时，这并非仅源自前布丁格区。

want people to understand that when we're talking about breathing affecting emotional cognitive state, it's not simply coming from pre Budsinger.

还有其他多个部位，让我需要逐一说明。

There are several other sites, and let me sort of I need to sort of go through that.

其一是嗅觉系统。

One is olfaction.

当你进行正常呼吸时，你会吸气和呼气。

So when you're breathing, normal normal breathing, you're inhaling and exhaling.

这会产生来自鼻黏膜的信号，这些呼吸节律调制的信号会反馈到嗅球。

This is creating signals coming from the nasal mucosa that is going back into the olfactory bulb that's respiratory modulated.

而嗅球对大脑多个区域具有深远影响和投射连接。

And the olfactory bulb has some profound influence and projections through many parts of the brain.

因此这种空气在鼻腔中节律性进出的运动，会向大脑传递包含呼吸调制的信号。

So there's a signal arising from this rhythmic moving of air in and out of the nose that's going into the brain that has contained in it a respiratory modulation.

另一个潜在来源是迷走神经。

Another potential source is the vagus nerve.

迷走神经是包含所有内脏传入神经的主要神经。

The vagus nerve is a major nerve which is containing afferents from all of the viscera.

传入神经就是指——一种信号。

Afferents just being- A signal.

它向...传递信号。

It signals to.

是的。

Yeah.

来自内脏的信号。

Signals from the viscera.

它也有从脑干向下传递的信号，称为传出神经，但它主要接收来自肺部和肠道的信号，这些信号向上传递到脑干。

It also has signals coming from the brain stem down, which are called efferents, but it's getting major signals from the lung, from the gut, and this is going up into the brain stem.

所以它就在那里。

So it's there.

肺部有非常强大的感受器。

There are very powerful receptors in the lung.

它们对肺部的扩张和松弛做出反应。

They're responding to the expansion and relaxation of the lung.

因此，如果你记录迷走神经的活动，会发现由于肺部机械变化导致的巨大呼吸节律调制。

And so if you record from the vagus nerve, you'll see that there's a huge respiratory modulation due to the mechanical changes in the lung.

现在，之所以对此感兴趣，是因为对于某些难治性抑郁症，迷走神经的电刺激可以带来极大的缓解。

Now, why that is of interest is that for some forms of refractory depression, electrostimulation of the vagus nerve can provide tremendous relief.

这一现象的原因仍有待确定，但显然迷走神经中的信号——至少是人工刺激迷走神经的信号——对缓解抑郁有积极作用。

Why this is the case still remains to be determined, but it's clear that signals in the vagus nerve, at least artificial signals in the vagus nerve, can have a positive effect on reducing depression.

因此，认为在正常情况下来自迷走神经的节律参与常规生理过程并非高见。

So it's not elite to think that under normal circumstances that that rhythm coming in from the vagus nerve is playing a role in normal processing.

好的。

Okay.

让我继续讲。

Let me let me continue.

二氧化碳和氧气水平。

Calm dioxide and oxygen levels.

正常情况下，你的血氧水平是稳定的。

Now under normal circumstances, your oxygen levels are fine.

除非前往高海拔地区，否则这些指标基本不会变化。

And unless you go to altitude, they don't really change very much.

但即使呼吸频率发生微小改变，你的二氧化碳水平也可能出现显著波动。

But your c o two levels can change quite a bit with even a relatively small change in your overall breathing.

这将改变你的pH值。

That's gonna change your pH level.

我的同事艾丽西亚·穆拉特正在治疗焦虑症患者，其中许多人存在过度换气症状。

I have a colleague, Alicia Murat, who is working with patients who are anxious and many of them hyperventilate.

由于这种过度换气，他们的二氧化碳水平偏低。

And as a result of that hyperventilation, their carbon dioxide levels are low.

她开发了一种疗法，通过训练患者减缓呼吸来恢复正常的二氧化碳水平，从而缓解他们的焦虑症状。

She has developed a therapeutic treatment where she trains these people to breathe slower to restore their CO2 levels back to normal, and she gets relief in their anxiety.

虽然二氧化碳水平在每次呼吸时会波动，但作为持续背景值的变化，不会对大脑功能产生即时影响。

So CO2 levels, which are not gonna affect brain function on a breath by breath level, although it does fluctuate breath by breath, but sort of as a continuous background, can change.

我们知道，如果长期变化，高度升高的二氧化碳水平可能引发恐慌发作。

And if it's changed chronically, we know that highly elevated levels of CO2 can produce panic attacks.

你的身体非常敏感，呼吸控制——比如每分钟的呼吸量——是由二氧化碳水平以极其敏感的方式决定的。

Your body is so sensitive, the control of breathing, like how much you breathe per minute, is determined in a very sensitive way by the CO2 level.

因此，即使二氧化碳水平的微小变化也会对你的通气量产生显著影响。

So even a small change in your c o two will have a significant effect on your ventilation.

所以这是另一个不仅改变你通气量，还会影响大脑状态的因素。

So this is another thing that not only changes your ventilation, but affects your brain state.

我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商Eight Sleep。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Sleep.

Eight Sleep生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠追踪功能的智能床垫保护套。

Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.

确保获得优质夜间睡眠的最佳方法之一，是保证睡眠环境的温度适宜。

One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.

这是因为要入睡并保持深度睡眠，你的体温实际上需要下降约1-3度。

And that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.

而为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，你的体温实际上需要上升约1-3度。

And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.

Eight Sleep会根据你的独特需求，自动整夜调节床铺温度。

Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.

我使用Eight Sleep床垫保护套已近五年，它彻底改变并提升了我睡眠的质量。

I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.

Eight Sleep最新款是Pod five智能床垫。

The latest Eight Sleep model is the Pod five.

这就是我现在使用的床垫，我简直爱不释手。

This is what I'm now sleeping on, and I absolutely love it.

它拥有众多令人惊叹的功能。

It has so many incredible features.

例如Pod five搭载了'自动驾驶'功能，这个AI引擎能学习你的睡眠模式，并根据不同睡眠阶段自动调节床垫温度。

For instance, the Pod five has a feature called autopilot, which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjust the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.

它甚至能在你打鼾时抬高头部位置，并通过其他调整来优化你的睡眠质量。

It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.

若想体验Eight Sleep，请访问eightsleep.com/huberman，立享Pod five Ultra最高700美元优惠。

If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $700 off the Pod five Ultra.

这是Eight Sleep年度最大促销活动。

This is Eight Sleep's biggest sale of the year.

活动即日起持续至2025年12月1日。

It goes from now until 12/01/2025.

Eight Sleep支持全球多国配送，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。

Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and The UAE.

再次重申：即刻登陆eightsleep.com/huberman，在2025年12月1日前最高可省700美元。

Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $700 now through 12/01/2025.

接下来讨论呼吸如何影响情绪状态——关键在于下行控制指令，因为呼吸练习涉及对呼吸的自主调控。

Now, thing that could affect breathing how breathing practice can affect your emotional state is simply the descending command because breathing practice involves volitional control of your breathing.

这意味着运动皮层某处发出的信号不仅会传递到前包钦格复合体，同时还会向其他区域发送分支信号。

And therefore, there's a signal that's originating somewhere in your motor cortex that is not Of course, that's gonna go down to pre Butzinger, but it's also gonna send off collaterals to other places.

那些关联因素显然会影响你的情绪状态。

Those collaterals could obviously influence your emotional state.

因此，我们有相当多不同的潜在来源，但没有一个是排他性的。

So, we have quite a few different potential sources, none of them that are exclusive.

我们大脑和身体的其他特征有哪些？无论是眨眼、眼球运动、编码声音的能力，还是我们功能运作、移动和感知事物的任何方式，这些特征是否都以某种有趣的方式与呼吸协调一致？

What are some of the other features of our brain and body, be it blinking, or eye movements, or ability to encode sounds, or any features of the way that we function and move and perceive things that are coordinated with breathing in some interesting way?

几乎一切。

Almost everything.

例如，在自主神经方面，我们有呼吸性窦性心律不齐。

So we have, for example, on the autonomic side, we have respiratory sinus arrhythmia.

也就是说，在呼气时，心跳会减慢。

That is, during expiration, the heart slows down.

你的瞳孔会随呼吸周期而收缩扩张。

Your pupils oscillate with the respiratory cycle.

你的恐惧反应。

Your fear response.

以抑郁症为例。

Let's take something like depression.

你可以把抑郁症想象为一种在神经回路中循环的活动。

You can envision depression as activity sort of going around in a circuit.

由于它在神经系统中是持续存在的，随着信号不断重复，它们往往会变得更强。

And because it's continuous in the nervous system, as signals keep repeating, they tend to get stronger.

然后强到无法打破。

And then get so strong, you can't break them.

我是说，我们所有人都会在某个时刻感到抑郁，但只要它不是持续性的，不是长期存在的，我们就能打破这种状态。

And I mean, all of us get depressed at some point, but if it's not continuous, it's not long lasting, we're able to break it.

确实，有些极端手段可以打破这种状态。

Well, there are extreme measures to break it.

我们可以采用电休克疗法。

We could do electroconvulsive shock.

我们会对整个大脑进行电击。

We shock the whole brain.

这会扰乱整个大脑的活动。

That's disrupting activity in the whole brain.

当神经回路开始重新连接时，它已经被打乱了。

And when the circuit starts to get back together again, it's been disruptive.

我们知道当大脑信号受到轻微干扰时，可以削弱神经连接。

And we know that the brain, signals get disrupted a little bit, we can weaken the connections.

如果削弱的是与抑郁相关的神经回路连接，我们或许能获得一些缓解。

And weakening the connections, if it's that in the circuit involved in depression, we may get some relief.