如何设定并实现宏伟目标 | 亚历克斯·霍诺尔德

欢迎收听Huberman Lab播客，我们在这里探讨科学及基于科学的日常生活工具。我是Andrew Huberman，斯坦福医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。今天的嘉宾是Alex Honnold。Alex是一位职业攀岩运动员，以无保护独攀（即不使用任何绳索或固定装置）优胜美地国家公园内近3000英尺高的酋长岩（El Capitan，简称El Cap）而闻名。

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Alex Honnold. Alex Honnold is a professional rock climber. He's best known for successfully free soloing, meaning climbing with no ropes or latching on of any kind El Capitan, also called El Cap, which is a nearly 3,000 foot climb in Yosemite National Park.

这当然也是精彩纪录片《Free Solo》的主题。如果你还没看过，强烈推荐观看。我早就想和Alex对话了。虽然我不是攀岩者，只尝试过几次，但我一直非常好奇Alex关于学习训练的心理框架及其更广阔的人生哲学。我的兴趣源于Alex无保护独攀酋长岩等壮举使他成为史上最杰出、最具创新精神的运动员之一。而无保护独攀酋长岩无疑是极高风险、高后果的行为。

Was It also of course the topic and focus of the incredible movie Free Solo, which if you haven't seen, you absolutely should watch. I've wanted to talk to Alex for a long time now. I'm not a rock climber, I've tried it a few times, but I've been extremely curious to understand Alex's mental frame around learning and training and his broader philosophy on life. My interest stems from the fact that Alex's free solo of LCAP and his other climbs make him one of the most accomplished and innovative athletes in all of history. And of course the free solo of LCAP is extremely high risk and high consequence.

今天我们将讨论如何构想目标并逐步推进，如何将日常工作家庭的需求与为任何宏大长远挑战进行的渐进训练相结合。Alex明确指出：培养付出努力的能力至关重要且可行，并通过系统化训练让看似不可能的目标触手可及。我们还会探讨：直面死亡实则是构建精彩人生的最佳动力，而多数人逃避这个现实，因而活出了远小于自身潜力的人生。同时也讨论具体训练方法——如何增强力量与耐力，不仅限于攀岩，而是普适性建议。

Today, we discuss how to envision and make progress towards your goals and how to merge the demands of daily work and family life with incremental training for spectacularly big or long challenges of any kind. Alex makes clear that it's essential and possible to build your capacity to exert effort and how to do that in a regimented way so as to bring seemingly impossible goals within your reach. We also discuss how coming to terms with one's own mortality is actually one of the best motivators for building a great life and why most people hide from that reality. And as a result, end up living much smaller lives than they otherwise would. We also discuss training, literally what to do to build strength and endurance, not just for sake of rock climbing, but just generally.

这将引申到重量训练、自重训练、跑步、徒步等可实操的内容，即使你对攀岩毫无兴趣。本次与Alex Honnold的对话必将改变你对自己人生可能性及实现方式的认知。开场前需要声明：本播客与我在斯坦福的教学研究工作无关，但确实是我向公众零成本传播科学及相关工具的努力。秉承此理念，本期节目含有赞助内容。

And that takes us into discussions about weight training, body weight training, running, hiking, and a bunch of other things that you can apply. Even if you have zero interest in rock climbing, today's conversation with Alex Honnold will definitely change the way that you think about your life, what you can make of it and how to go about that. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.

现在有请Alex Honnold。Alex，欢迎你。

And now for my discussion with Alex Honnold. Alex Honnold, welcome.

谢谢邀请。

Thanks for having me.

我认为《Free Solo》的非凡之处有很多。但正如我们共同好友摄影师Michael Mueller在观影前所说：'奇妙的是你作为观众全程提心吊胆，却又从一开始就知道Alex成功了——这种观影体验非常独特'

I think Free Solo is remarkable for a ton of reasons. But as a good friend of mine, who I think you know, Michael Mueller, photographer, he said, before I'd seen the film, he said, it's wild because you're terrified as an observer the entire time, but you also know that Alex survives from the very beginning, which is a very unusual

其实有些观众并不知情。他们完全不了解影片内容，全程都在想'天啊接下来会发生什么？'

I think some people don't know that. Some people watch the movie and they literally have no idea what it's about or what's going on, and they spend the whole movie being like, oh my god. What's gonna happen?

好吧，我剧透了。

Okay. So I just spoiled it.

噢，确实。不过现在无所谓了，都是旧闻啦。

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, at this point, I'm like, nobody cares. It's old news.

嗯，这确实是一项壮举。我们可以深入探讨这个壮举，但我更想了解一下你整体的心路历程。我相信这过程肯定有所变化，欢迎你谈谈这方面。不过，我对内在动机与外在动机的概念特别好奇，对吧？

Well, it's it's a spectacular feat. And we can go into that feat, but I'd actually like to drill in a little bit to just your process in general. I'm sure that's changed over time and feel free to talk about that. But, you know, I'm very curious about sort of notions of intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. Right?

我认为《徒手攀岩》之所以非凡，还因为拍摄时你身上戴着摄像机。这显然是要被记录的，你也知道有镜头对着你。而我总认为攀岩是种孤独的运动，或是小团体在远离喧嚣时进行的活动。如今社交媒体改变了这一切，任何事都能被快速发布甚至直播。但当你思考自己进步的过程、目标设定以及个人里程碑时——

And and I think free solo was also remarkable because you had cameras on you. It was obviously to be recorded and you knew you had cameras on you. And yet I always thought of climbing as kind of a solitary sport or things that people do in small groups, kind of off the grid. Things have changed now with social media, the way everything can be posted very quickly or even run live. But when you think about sort of the work that you're doing in terms of progressing and goals and, you know, kind of milestones for yourself.

你是如何设想的？比如会写日记吗？是否有套流程让你坐下来思考：哪些体验会让我觉得超棒？人们会想看吗？对你而言，内在动机与外在动机之间如何平衡？

How do you envision that? Is this in like a, do you have a diary? Do you have a process where you sit back and you think, know, what would be awesome for me to experience? Would people like to see it? How do, what's the sort of balance between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation for you?

本质上，我认为攀岩始终源于内在动机。我从孩提时代开始攀岩就热爱这项运动，喜欢攀爬时的肢体动作，享受那种感觉。

So basically, I think climbing is always intrinsically motivated. I mean, since I've I started climbing when was a child. I've always loved climbing. I love the movement of climbing. I love the feeling of it.

我热爱整个体验过程，方方面面都令人沉醉。但作为职业攀岩者，显然也存在外在动机——比如‘这就是我的谋生方式’。《徒手攀岩》这部电影就展现了二者的有趣平衡：有些事我纯粹为自己而做，即便世上没有其他人存在，我也会去做。

I love the whole experience. You know, just everything about it is great. But then, you know, now as a professional climber, obviously, there is that extrinsic motivation as well where you're like, oh, this is how I make a living. And so I think with the film Free Solo, you know, is a really interesting balance of the two where it's like, this is something that I'd love to do for myself. And even if no one else in the world existed, I'd wanna do this thing.

但同时你也清楚，如果电影成功——事实确实如此——这对你的事业等各方面都有好处。所以外在动机同样存在。你需要不断分辨哪些是内在驱动，特别是徒手攀岩时，你不想被外在动机驱使去做准备不足或不该做的事。当然，即便出于内在动机，也可能做出错误决定。

But then you also know that if you're if the film turns out well, at which it did, you know, it's gonna be great for your career. It's gonna be great for whatever. And so, like, there is that extrinsic motivation as well. And so then you're always trying to parse out, like, which part is which and, you know, because you don't wanna, particularly with free soloing, you don't wanna be too extrinsically motivated because you don't wanna get pushed into something that you're not prepared for that you shouldn't be doing. Of course, you know, being even being intrinsically motivated, you can do something you shouldn't.

懂我意思吗？作为攀岩者，你会持续思考这些问题。

You know? I I don't know. I mean but you're just constantly thinking about those things as a climber.

为了徒手攀登酋长岩，你是靠记忆固定动作序列，还是更像掌握某些模式，知道在特定岩段可以灵活应对多种情况？

In order to free solo LCAP, did you memorize sequences, or is it more sort of like motifs where you you kind of know that you're gonna do any number of different things in a in a given pitch?

视情况而定。最难的部分我会牢记每个细节，但这只占路线的三分之一左右。

It depends. So for the hardest parts, I memorize, like, sure. Memorize every aspect of it. But that's only the hardest parts. That's maybe like a third of the root.

至于最简单的三分之一——其实有些部分相当简单，甚至非攀岩者也能完成某些小段。整条路线零星分布着这类简单段落，虽不占主体。对于这些简单部分，你只需确信自己能完成，不必过度紧张。

And then for the easiest third and some of it is actually quite easy. Some of it's like even a non climber could climb small sections of the wall. Like, there are parts that are quite easy here and there. You know? It's like not the bulk, but but so for the easy part is you just know that you can do it and you you don't have to stress it.

中间部分大约占岩壁剩余的三分之一。就像你说的，有点像记住某些主题。你可能最清楚最难的部分，心里知道一切会顺利，但不必逐字背诵。不过我对根部确实了如指掌。你知道，就是掌握所有必须掌握的东西。

And then the the medium part is kind of like the remaining third of the wall. You sort of remember kinda like you said motifs. Like, you you might know the hardest part and you just kinda know that it's gonna be fine, but you don't have to memorize it per se. But certainly I knew the root very, very well. You know, you just you just know all the things that you have to know.

你辨识的不仅是岩点，还有那种本能感受——比如这里感觉不同，或者因为我能想象环境会变化。对吧？比如天气状况、岩石温度、岩壁上的阴影。

You recognize not just holds, but like visceral sensations, like this feels different or because I imagine conditions change. Right? I mean, weather conditions, heat on the rock, shadows on the rock.

对，但没你想的那么严重。因为我只在阴凉处攀爬——春季时整面西墙直到上午11点或中午都处于阴影中。所以凌晨四点出发就有八小时稳定阴凉。整个季节都在训练时，温度和条件相对稳定。你知道明天感觉会和大致今天一样，都在相对可控范围内，这就是我选春季的原因。

Yeah. But not as much as you might think because like I was only climbing in shade, like in the springtime, that whole west side of the wall stays in the shade until eleven or noon ish in the morning. So you go at four in the morning and then you have sort of eight hours of solid shade. So normally, the temperature and the the conditions feel relatively stable and you spend the whole season working on it. So you kinda know that tomorrow is gonna feel the same as it did today roughly, you know, and so it's all within a relatively narrow band, particularly in the spring, which is why I did it in the springtime.

秋天则不同，太阳角度更低，日照更早反而更热——阴凉处冷，阳光下烫，显然增加了难度。但我每年在优胜美地待三四个月，春秋各一两个月。在一个地方待这么久，你自然熟悉它的脾性。

In the fall and the autumn, it's a little bit different because the sun is lower in the sky, so it gets sun much earlier and it actually is way hotter counterintuitively. It's like colder when it's in the shape and then hotter when it's in the sun. Anyways, that makes it harder for climbing, obviously. But when I freesell it all cap, was spending three or four months a year in Yosemite every year, like, you know, a month or two every spring and every every autumn. And so you're spending four months a year in a place, you just know how it feels.

懂吗？就像习惯了早起，习惯了岩壁生活，会觉得'又是与岩石相伴的美妙一天'。实际上我徒手攀酋长岩那天，湿度温度比理想状态稍高些。

You know? It's like you're used to getting up that early. You're used to climbing on the wall, you're just kinda like, oh, it's it's gonna be another beautiful day on the rock. And, actually, the day that I did the free solo of El Cap, it was actually a little more humid and a little warmer than than I maybe than would have been optimal. You know?

虽非最佳选择，但那天就这样。我想'就是今天了'，必须完成。前夜其实一直多云。

Like, it's not what I would have chosen, but but that's just the way it was that day. And I was kinda like, well, this is my day. You know? You kinda just have to do the thing. But it'd been, like, overcast that night.

夜间多云时最低温不会太低。我醒来时感觉闷热，凌晨四点本不该这样，有点难受。但我想'就是今天了'。

And you know when it's cloudy at night, the lows don't drop as low. And so I woke up and it was, like, kinda muggy ish feeling. I was like, it's not it's not great for being four in the morning. It was, like, feels kinda gross. But I was like, this is my day.

很有趣。

It was fun.

所以你和岩石建立了某种关系，学会识别它的不同状态。当你完成那次攀登时——我知道你某天出发后又取消了

So you form a relationship with The Rock. You kind of like learn to recognize its different states. When you did it and completed it, because I know you set out one day and then you you called it

对，那是秋季，前一个赛季的事。

off. Yeah. That that was in the autumn. That was that was the season before.

嗯。

Mhmm.

基本上，赛季即将结束。就像接下来一周会有风暴来临那样，整个赛季都在收尾。我当时想，至少应该尝试一下，因为我做了很多准备，感觉大体上已经准备好了。结果发现我其实还没完全准备好，所以最后还是放弃了。

And basically, the season was ending. Like, the storms are coming in the next week type deal, and it was like the season is winding down. It was kinda like, well, I should at least take a shot because I'd done a lot of prep and I felt mostly ready. And it turns out I just wasn't ready ready. And so so I wound up bailing.

但那就是我赛季末的状态。我想着或许能勉强完成，知道如果那时不行，就得再等六个月。加上摄制组的压力等等，想到有这么多人都在为你工作、等待，你就会觉得至少得试着完成这件事。感觉所有人都在等我。但事实证明，我当时确实还没准备好。

But that was kind of my end of the season. Like, I think I can squeak this in knowing that if I couldn't squeak it in then, then I'd have to wait six more months. And with the pressure of the film crew and all that stuff, knowing that there are all these people, like, working and waiting for you, you're kinda like, well, I'd at least try to get this done. It's like all these people are waiting on me. But as it turns out, I just didn't quite have it yet.

后来春天真正尝试时，我准备得更充分，感觉也好多了。整个经历都更顺利。现在回想起来，我很高兴事情那样发展，因为结果确实更好。但当时，你知道，我觉得天啊，我搞砸了，还有这么多人看着。

And then when I ultimately did do it in the spring, I was much better prepared, felt way better. The whole experience worked out better. So now in retrospect, I'm like, oh, I'm glad that it played out that way because, you know, it was was better. But at the time, was you know, I was like, oh god, I failed on this thing. And all these people are watching.

很尴尬。你知道，当时压力真的非常大。

It's embarrassing. It's, you know, it was it was all very stressful at the time.

是啊。外界压力肯定相当大，尤其是当那些都是你的朋友时。我猜如果是纯商业合作，还能说‘这只是工作’，但当时你身边有很多朋友。

Yeah. The external pressures have to be, you know, pretty pretty mighty when yeah. When especially when they're your friends. I I guess one could imagine, like, when it's just business, you can just be like, well, it's just business. But yeah, you had a lot of friends up there with you.

对我来说，如果要攀岩，我通常凌晨四点半或五点就开始。这意味着我的一些朋友得凌晨一点就起床，背着沉重的装备徒步到山顶就位。如果你让一群朋友凌晨一点去爬山，你最好兑现承诺。如果你说要做什么，就真的得做到。虽然朋友们肯定不会抱怨——

For me, the thing is is that if I'm gonna go climb the wall, you know, I start climbing at 04:30 in the morning or five or something. So that means some of my friends to get in position at the top of the wall are getting up at like one in the morning and then hiking to the top of the mountain with heavy backpack. And if you're asking a bunch of your buddies to go hiking at one in the morning, like, you better live up to your end of the thing. You know? Like, if you say you're gonna do something, you better actually do the thing because your friends obviously, no one's complaining.

没人给我压力，但你还是不想临阵退缩。如果你告诉别人你要做某事却做不到，那真的很尴尬。

No one is pressuring me. No one's But at the same time, you don't want to bail. Like, it's pretty embarrassing if you tell someone you're going do something and then you just can't do it.

他们肯定只期待一种结果。

Well, they certainly wanted the outcome to be only one way.

大家都非常积极支持，这很棒，但你依然无法摆脱那种压力感。

They were all super positive and supportive, and it's all great, but you still can't help but feel that pressure.

当然。嗯，结果确实很成功。我很好奇，从一到十的评分标准来看，十代表完全确定沿着那条轨迹完成时，是否有任何阶段让你觉得必须临时调整原计划？你是指实际完成无保护独攀的那天吗？

Sure. Well, it certainly worked out. I'm curious on a scale of one to ten, ten being a total certainty along that trajectory when you completed it, were there any phases where you felt you had to improvise against the original plan? You mean on the day of the actual On the day of the actual completion of of the free solo and

不。当天我是百分之百确定的。一切都很完美。我完全清楚该做什么。整个过程棒极了。

No. On on the day, I was a 100%. Everything was perfect. I knew exactly what to do. Was all amazing.

但达到这种状态花了很长时间。你知道，这实际上是多年积累加上数月的准备。不过没错，当天确实完美无缺。

But it took a really long time to get there. You know, it's like literally years of building up to it and then months of preparation and everything. But no, on the day it was perfect.

我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商Juve。Juve生产医疗级红光治疗设备。如果这档播客有我一直强调的内容，那就是光对我们生物学的惊人影响。除了阳光，红光和近红外光源已被证明对改善细胞和器官健康的诸多方面有积极作用，包括加速肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康和伤口愈合、减轻痤疮、缓解疼痛和炎症，甚至提升线粒体功能和改善视力。Juve设备的独特之处在于采用临床验证的波长组合——特定红光与近红外光协同作用，触发最佳的细胞适应性。

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优质治疗包含三个核心要素：首先是与值得信赖的咨询师建立良好默契，能畅所欲言讨论任何问题；其次是获得情感支持或专业指导，或两者兼具；第三是获取能切实改善工作、人际关系及自我认知的深刻洞见。

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重申：betterhelp.com/huberman。关于攀岩时的心理视野——作为外行，我猜测你的注意力始终集中在下一个动作，不断向上向外推进（有时需迂回行进），时空感知非常聚焦。但你是否会进入某种自动化状态？

Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman. When you climb, I'm curious where your mental horizon is. I can make up a story as a non climber that your mental horizon is always on just the next maneuver, just getting further up and further over. Sometimes of course you have to go down and up, but that you're sort of time binning and your space binning is very, very close. But do you ever go into states where you're sort of in automaticity?

比如我们常说的心流状态？在这种状态下，你更多是本能移动，而非高度策略性地规划未来五秒、十秒的动作。

I mean, we hear about flow, right? But where you find yourself kind of maneuvering as opposed to being hyper strategic about what's happening in the next five seconds, ten seconds.

我认为目标是进入那种心流状态，无论你怎么称呼它。但实际上，即使在电影中，也有我提到自动驾驶之类的话，比如我渴望进入自动驾驶状态。嗯。所以我渴望不过多思考它。至少对我来说，这需要大量练习，就是为了能够几乎机械地完成动作，通过重复，不假思索地做出你练习过的动作。

Well, I think the aspiration is to be in that flow state, whatever you wanna call it. But actually, I think even in the film, there's some quotes from me saying auto pilot and things like, I'm, you know, I'm aspiring to be on autopilot. Mhmm. So I'm aspiring to not be thinking too much about it. And and that's for me at least why it required so much practice was to be able to to just do something almost by rote, you know, by by through repetition, just to do the thing that you've practiced without having to think about it.

因为我觉得一旦你开始想得太多，不仅更容易出错，还会陷入自己的思绪中。我不知道。我的意思是，目标就是单纯地完成动作。嗯。不去想它，没有犹豫，没有情绪波动，直接去做。

Because I think once you start thinking about it too much, you're just more prone to not just make errors, but just, like, get to get caught up in your own mind. And I don't know. I mean, the the aspiration was just to do the thing. Mhmm. Like, no thinking about it, no hesitation, you know, no emotional, you know, affect around it to just do it.

其中的动觉成分大吗？换句话说，你是否在通过触感和视觉共同感知？我想象这些感觉会逐渐融合。

Is the kinesthetic aspect of it big? In other words, are you feeling your way through it as well as using vision? I mean, I imagine that these things start to blend.

是的。其实从来没人这样问过我。某种程度上，动觉成分可能就是全部。就像跳舞一样，你只是在岩石上流动。显然你会环顾四周，观察落脚点，以那种方式准确放置双脚。

Yeah. I've actually never been asked something quite like that. Some ways, I mean, the kinesthetic aspect is is maybe the whole thing. Like, I mean, it is kind of like dancing or something where you are just flowing over stone. I mean, obviously, you're looking around and you're looking at your footholds and you're sort of placing your feet correctly that way.

但实际上，你只是在完成一连串动作。你在流动。身体在移动。嗯。我觉得当你攀爬得很好，尤其是反复练习过、对路线非常熟悉时，感觉就像慢跑或游泳这类基本运动模式，身体在做它该做的事，感觉棒极了。

But but really, you're just doing sequences. You're just flowing. Like, body is moving. Mhmm. I mean, I think when you climb well and and particularly when you've rehearsed something and and you know the climb really well, it feels like jogging or swimming or sort of other elemental movement patterns where it's just like your body doing what it's meant to do, and it feels great.

你知道吗？那种感觉真的很美妙。

You know? It's like, it's really nice.

你还会让自己感到惊讶吗？比如训练时心想‘没想到这招奏效了’。接着保持那种动觉感知。我最近在听特怀拉·萨普的一本很棒的书，她是位编舞家。

Do you ever surprise yourself still? Like that in training things, you know, I'm surprised that worked out. Then stick with that kinesthetic sense. I've been listening to an amazing book by Twyla Tharp. She's a choreographer.

她曾是芭蕾舞编导。她说区分精湛技艺与大师境界的，就是当你开始让自己感到惊讶的时刻。我认为你绝对属于那种精湛境界。那么这种惊喜多久会出现一次？

She was a ballerina choreographer. And she said that what distinguishes, you know, virtuosity from mastery is that when you start to surprise yourself. And I think you're certainly in that category of virtue of virtue. So how often does surprise come about?

对我个人而言，这可能是攀爬中最喜欢的时刻——当你让自己惊讶时。无保护独攀时不太会有这种体验，因为你不希望出现意外。但带着绳索时，经常会有确信自己即将坠落的时候，比如达到体力极限等，然后你做出了本以为不可能完成的动作。虽然不常发生，但当它出现时，你会想‘哦，我超越了自己的预期’，这是最棒的感觉。

For me personally, that's maybe my favorite moment in climbing is when you surprise yourself. And this isn't so much with free soloing because with free soloing, you don't wanna be surprised. But but with a but with a rope on, you know, you have moments all the time where you're sure you're about to fall because you're, you know, up against your physical limits or whatever, and then you stick a move that you were sure you weren't going to. And it doesn't happen that often, but when it does, you're like, Oh, I exceeded my own expectations. It's like the best feeling.

这种情况时有发生。实际上我跟朋友说过，这可能是我感知衰老的方式之一。作为攀岩者随着年龄增长，我发现自己惊喜的时刻变少了。24岁时你不太了解自己的极限，经常让自己惊讶，想着‘哇，我超越了自己，做到了确信做不到的事’。

It happens from time to time. In some ways, actually, I was telling my friends, I think that that might be one of the ways in which I see aging. As I'm getting older as a climber, I think I surprise myself less often. I think it's like a 24 year old, you just don't know your own limitations that much and you frequently surprise yourself where I'm like, Wow, I really outdid myself. I really did something that I was sure I couldn't do, but I managed to do it.

作为一个刚满40岁的人，你知道，这种情况确实时有发生，但并非总是如此。明白吗？就像是嗯哼。现在偶尔会遇到一些事，我原以为肯定能做到，结果却失败了，懂吗？

And now as a recent 40 year old, you know, like that happens from time to time for sure, but not all the time. You know? It's like Mhmm. And and now occasionally I have things where I was like, oh, I was sure I could do that. And then I failed, you know?

然后你会想，哦，可以怪环境不好，可以怪任何理由。但内心深处你会觉得，我真心以为能成功的，结果还是搞砸了。这时候就会忍不住骂一句，该死。

And you're kind of like, Oh, you can blame conditions. You can blame whatever. But you're kind of like, Oh, I really thought I would do that. And I fell off anyway. And you're like, Damn it.

年龄在传统攀岩中扮演什么角色？你个人体验如何？就像数学这类领域，刻板印象认为这是年轻人的游戏；而生物学这类领域则更渐进式，人们可以长期取得重大发现。这些都是学术脑力活动。但我们对每项运动都有类似认知。

What is the role of aging and climbing traditionally and how you're experiencing it? Like there are fields of science, like mathematics where the stereotype is, you know, it's a young person's game. And then there are fields like biology, which is a bit more incremental and people can have fantastic discoveries and long careers. Those are academic cerebral endeavors. But, you know, we have our understanding of this for every sport.

对于攀岩，特别是无保护独攀，传统观念认为这是老人运动？年轻人运动？还是女性运动？抱歉口误。

For climbing, what's the lore for climbing and for free soloists in particular? That it's an old man's game. It's a young man's game. Woman's game. Excuse me.

我不认为有人会说无保护独攀是老人运动。不过...理论上可以？但主流观点是，攀岩比多数运动寿命更长，因为对身体冲击较小，更注重技巧和动作。

I don't I don't think anybody calls free soloing an old man's game. But but no. But it could be. But, no, I think in general, climbing has more longevity than most sports just because it's relatively low impact on your body. It's very technique and, like, movement focused.

所以不纯粹依赖体力。不过现在攀岩进了奥运会，夺冠选手基本都是18到23岁，和体操运动员年龄层相似。所以顶尖竞技攀岩可能类似体操。但在真实岩壁上开辟新路线的话，年龄跨度就大得多。五六十岁的攀登者仍能带队探索新线路，开发有意义的攀登路线，虽然体力不是最顶尖的。

And so it's not just pure physical strength. That said, I mean, climbing is in the Olympics now, and the people winning the Olympics are all sort of 18 to 23 ish, you know, sort of same as gymnastics type of range. So I think at the most elite levels of climbing performance, it's kind of similar to gymnastics probably. But then to do interesting new things on real rock outdoors, I think there's a much wider latitude. And then even into your 50s and 60s, there are plenty of climbers who are leading expeditions to new places, developing new climbs, doing things that are noteworthy and sort of meaningful for the climbing community, even though they're not necessarily cutting edge physically.

所以相比其他运动，攀岩有更多可能性。另一个关键是，像NBA/NFL这类球类运动，不进职业队就永远告别了。而攀岩就算达不到顶级水平，你仍可以经常攀登，完成酷炫路线，做有意义的事。

So I think there's a lot of lot of opportunity for climbing more than most sports. And and I think actually in the other big thing with climbing is that in so many other sports, like, think ball sports, you know, NBA, NFL, baseball, whatever, it's kind of like if you don't make the team, then you're done playing forever. Like, you'll literally never play football again if you're not a professional football player. Whereas with climbing, even if you're not playing at the highest level, you can still go climb all the time, and you can still do cool climbs. You can still do things that matter.

你可以教学，可以做各种事。这样就能在这个圈子里待得久得多。

You can help teach. You can do whatever. And so you can kinda, like, stay in the game much, much longer.

你提到攀岩入奥。现在奥运会新增了很多如滑板、攀岩这类项目，这些原本都是自发进行的运动。以前人们去实地玩时，没有社交媒体所以很少被记录。

You mentioned that climbing's in the Olympics now. We see a lot of sports like skateboarding and climbing now in the Olympics, and these were sports that traditionally were done. You know, people just go to go to where these things were done, and it wasn't always recorded because there wasn't social media back then.

更准确说是没有智能手机。那时候连普通相机都不普及，重点不在于社交传播，而是能否轻松记录。

Well, more that there weren't smartphones. There weren't cameras that, you know, it's like, it's not even about the social. It's about the whether or not you can record it easily.

嗯。所以我猜现在有大量年轻人涌入这项运动。你觉得这项运动发展速度会加快吗？我还对文化方面很好奇，你知道，每当一项运动进入奥运会，人们就会说它某种程度上‘出卖’了，现在它要改变了。

Mhmm. But So I'm guessing there's a big influx of of young kids getting into this now. Do you see the sport progressing faster? And I'm also curious about the the culture, whether or not, you know, like anytime a sport is in the Olympics, the thing is like, oh, it's kind of quote unquote sold out. Now it's going to change.

它会变得更商业化。那么攀岩文化对于这种大规模扩张怎么看？你有什么想法？

It's going to become more commercial. So what's the culture within climbing about this big expansion? What are your thoughts?

我个人非常支持。我小时候就是通过攀岩馆接触攀岩的，这彻底改变了我的生活。我热爱攀岩，觉得它很棒。我当然能看到奥运会带来的商业化浪潮，或者说攀岩更主流化的趋势。但这其实很棒，因为我的朋友们大多都是攀岩相关行业的从业者。

I mean, personally, I'm way into it. I mean, was a kid that got into climbing into climbing gym and it's changed my life for the better. Like I love climbing, I think it's great. I can certainly see the sort of commercial influx from the Olympics or sort of like more mainstream adoption of climbing. But that's kinda great because, I mean, most of my friends are sort of climbing industry adjacent professionals in some ways.

比如他们当教练、营养师或定线员——就是设计别人攀爬路线的人。行业规模越大，就越多人能靠热爱的事情谋生，即使他们不是顶级赞助运动员。所以我觉得行业扩大对大家都有好处。毕竟攀岩本身就超酷的。

You know, like, they make they're like coaches or dietitians or setters. Like, they they make the climbs that people climb on. And so, basically, the bigger the industry gets, the more people like that can make a living doing the thing that they love to do even if they're not necessarily sponsored professionals at the highest level. So I'm kinda like, you know, a broadening industry is is kinda good for everybody. And mostly, I mean, climbing's awesome.

如果人们喜欢...我是说，为什么不试试攀岩？它绝对比大多数健身方式都好。干嘛要去做CrossFit而不来攀岩呢？这酷多了。

Like, if people enjoy you know, it's like, why not get into climbing? It's like, certainly I mean, I think it's better than most other fitness modalities. You know? It's like, oh, why do CrossFit when you go rock climbing? It's way cooler.

确实看起来更...

I mean, it certainly seems Way

更有趣。这是肯定的。

more fun. That's for sure.

而且室内室外都能玩。可能有些项目出于安全考虑不适合独自进行。当人们问...

And you could do indoors or outdoors. There are probably certain aspects you wouldn't wanna do alone for safety reasons. I think when people ask like, what do

你会担心奥运会和主流化对攀岩文化的影响吗？如果有人想当攀岩者却只愿一辈子在都市攀岩馆里玩——那也很好啊。就算他们余生只爬塑料岩点，也比做CrossFit强。我觉得这很酷，不一定非要爬酋长岩才算攀岩者。

you worry about with climbing culture and all that kind of stuff, like with the Olympics and the mainstream appeal? Kind of like, you know, if somebody wants to be a climber and only go to the climbing gym in a in a major city for their entire life, like, that's great. Like, if they just wanna climb plastic the rest of their life, that's still better than going to CrossFit or doing whatever else. I'm like, that's cool. Like, you don't have to go climb El Cap to be a climber.

我觉得人们可以做任何想做的事。这对运动发展很有利。现在你也能看到水平在快速提升——更多场馆、更多孩子参与，人才成长速度明显加快了。

I'm kinda like people can do whatever they want. And I think I think that's great for the sport. And and you are seeing standards rise very quickly right now sort of as a result, just like better access to gyms, more kids getting into it. You just see talent rise faster.

我偶尔会刷到一些跑酷少年的社交媒体账号，他们通常在都市地形里做出各种疯狂动作。你从事的这种攀岩运动和跑酷之间有什么交集吗？

I come across social media accounts of parkour kids every once in a while doing absolutely insane stuff in urban terrains usually. What's the crossover, if any, between parkour and and climbing of the sort that you do?

有一点但不多。不过攀岩者常喜欢竞技攀岩，比如奥运项目抱石赛，确实开始融入一些跑酷式动作，比如大幅跑跳、疯狂摆荡之类的。所以有些老派攀岩者抱怨这类抱石赛变得太跳跃了。但我还挺喜欢的，虽然这些都属于很专业的领域话题。

There's a little bit, not that much, but but climbers often like competition climbing, like bouldering, which is in the Olympics, has definitely taken a slight turn towards parkour sorts of moves, like big run and jumps and, like, crazy swings and things like that. And so some old school climbers complain that it's, like, gotten a little too jumpy, that type of bouldering. But I'm kinda into it. I mean, it's I don't know. This is all very, like, inside baseball.

当所有顶尖选手都实力超群时，要怎么区分胜负？复杂动作就是方式之一，比如跑跳配合之类的技巧。我觉得这挺酷的。

Like, how do you separate like, basically, the highest level competitors are all very, very strong. So then how do you separate these different competitors who are all climbing an elite level? And one of the ways is complicated movement like that, like running jumps and coordination and things like that. So I don't know. I mean, I think it's cool.

我其实认识几位兼练攀岩的职业跑酷运动员，他们在某些特定动作上真的强得惊人。

I've actually met a, like, a couple of professional parkour athletes who also climb, and they are really good at at very particular sorts of things. Like, it's I mean, it's amazing to see.

是啊，虽然他们很多动作让我看着腿软，但又忍不住想看。特别是那种破釜沉舟的狠劲——至少在社交媒体呈现里真是生死一线。我总好奇这种心态是怎么练就的。

Yeah. I mean, I I find a lot of what they do terrifying, but also awesome. I can't help myself but watch. And just the motivation to work it out too, like, you know, because some of these are truly make or break or make or die, at least in the form they put to social media. So I'm always curious like what goes into that.

我从小玩滑板，在城里看到地形就会想'这地方玩招肯定酷'。这种用全新视角审视自然或城市景观的方式，我觉得和攀岩/跑酷很像。说到这个，你就像滑板界的托尼·霍克——作为运动代言人带领攀岩经历起伏，如今进入奥运会。我觉得攀岩和滑板、冲浪在这方面有很多共性。

And, having grown up skateboarding, mean, you go around a city and you see stuff and you're like, oh, that would be awesome. And so, I mean, just looking at a landscape, natural or urban landscape in a completely different way, I see a lot of parallels with climbing and tour. And also, you know, I think of you at, you know, certainly at the level and kind of parallel with a guy like Tony Hawk, who's been a sport of skateboarding for a very long time. He's a amazing ambassador for the sport as it's gone through its various like, you know, peaks and valleys now in the Olympics. I So think climbing and sports like skateboarding and surfing have a lot in common in this way.

从小众亚文化走向流行。

Subculture, but then also gets popular.

对，从冷门变主流后依然保持调性。就像滑板现在虽不是彻底的反叛文化，但依然很酷。攀岩也是，虽然越来越主流化...

Yeah. Where they're of niche and then they become kind of mainstream. But then even once they're mainstream, they're still kind of cool. Skateboarding, it's like definitely not like full punk rock anymore, but you're like, it's pretty cool, you know, like skateboarding still. And it's not that common still, know, and that's the thing with climbing is I'm kinda like, yeah, climbing's growing, it's becoming more mainstream.

但永远不可能像足球那么普及。它始终会带点小众反骨气质，毕竟不像篮球那种全民运动。

It's just never gonna be soccer or something. You know what I mean? Like, it's always going to be slightly niche, slightly countercultural because it's just a smaller thing. Like, it's just not playing basketball or something.

我对训练体系和体能要求特别感兴趣。虽然我只去过一两次攀岩馆，但能感觉到...

Yeah. I'm intrigued by the training aspects and some of the fitness aspects. I agree that it I'm having only done a little bit. I mean, I've been to a climbing gym once or twice.

是啊。我正要问你呢。就这样吧

Yeah. I gonna ask you. So so

你不会改变那件事的。那面墙我撞过几次。我确实耽误过别人几次，但我绝不是，你知道的，擅长这事。其实挺想尝试的，因为——顺便说生日快乐。我当时正要过40岁生日。

you're not changing that. The wall a few times. I've been delayed for people a few times, but I am by no means, you know, skilled at it. It'd be fun to to get into because I happy birthday, by the way. I was turning 40.

我马上要50岁了，现在更多考虑的是——我对自己的力量和耐力很满意，但更关注灵活性。还有攀岩

I'm turning 50 soon, and I think more about I'm happy with my strength and endurance, but I think more about mobility now. Also Climbing

对这方面特别好。

is great for that.

攀岩确实很适合。而且关于大脑长寿和保持认知能力，以及肢体末端力量——信不信由你，脚趾和手指的力量——有很多有趣的研究都显示它们存在相关性。

Climbing is great for that. And and there's a lot of interesting literature on brain longevity and just maintaining your cognition and the strength of your of your distal body. So toes and fingers, believe it or not. It's a correlate.

比如我脚趾能伸直。这不就是我一直认为的只是相关性吗？

Like, my toes straight. Isn't that I've always thought that's just a correlation.

确实只是相关性。

It's just a correlation.

因为你看，握力就是个代表指标，说明你经常活动身体。所以自然就...当我看到那些说'握力强意味着这个那个'的研究时，我就想：不，握力强只说明你经常干活。而经常活动的人，肯定比不活动的人头脑更灵活。

Because, yeah, like, because grip strength is just a proxy for all like, it means that you use your body a lot. And so therefore you're probably, you know, like when I read those things about like, if you have strong grip, it means this and this and this. I'm like, no, if you have a strong grip, it means that you do stuff all the time. And so as a result of doing stuff all the time, you're probably sharper than somebody who doesn't do stuff all the time.

没错。这是共变关系。同时要注意，控制躯干运动的运动神经元——随着离中线越远，它们在脊髓中是分层分布的。从进化角度看，我们是从有鳍有翼的动物演化来的，某些基因是共用的。最终形成了控制精细动作的运动神经元。确实有证据表明，控制肢体末端（脚趾手指/小腿前臂）的运动神经元比核心肌群的更容易随年龄退化。

That's right. So it's a correlate at the same time, motor neurons that control like trunk movements and contraction of the trunk muscles, like as you go out from the midline, they're in layers in the spinal cord. So they literally like the motor neurons that control like the core Sit sitting up to to, in the spinal cord to the midline. And then, you know, across evolution, like, you know, we evolved from animals with fins and wings, and some of the same genes are used. And eventually you get motor neurons that control like fine motor movements like And it is true that for some reason, the motor neurons that control the distal body, so toes and fingers, calves and forearms are more vulnerable to age related degeneration than the ones for the core.

所以理论上——虽然尚未证实——通过保持肢体末端力量，可能真的能延缓运动神经元和认知功能的衰退。

So by, so it is possible. We don't know yet that by maintaining strength of distal body that you can actually preserve motor neuron and cognitive function.

我简直兴奋得要疯了。

And I'm freaking I'm psyched.

你已经准备好了。对，就这么干。所以我一直好奇攀岩者——只要他们没摔死——

And you're set. Yeah. Doing it. And that's why I was curious how climbers provided they don't fall and kill themselves.

是啊。

Yeah.

他们是如何老去的。这里还有其它因素，比如在橄榄球这类运动中，人们头部经常遭受撞击。

How they age. And there's other things here too because like in some sports, like football and rugby, people are getting their hit head hit a lot. Yeah.

你说得对

That you

那些人往往衰老得不好。但我总想起攀岩者。在优胜美地那会儿，我既见过像你这样的年轻人，也见过那些老攀岩手。老天，那些老家伙体格简直不可思议。嗯。

don't tend to age well. But I always thought of climbers. You know, in my time up in Yosemite, I'd see young guys like you and then I'd see these like old like these old climbers. And I was like, man, these guys are in incredible shape. Mhmm.

他们精瘦矍铄，思维敏捷。看起来这是项能让人保持良好身体机能的运动。

They're lean. They're live. They they seem cognitively fresh. So it seems like it's a sport where people hold onto their faculties pretty well.

我也这么想。不过说实话很难下定论，毕竟超高龄攀岩者本就不多。而且那些有名的老攀岩家们，最终也和常人一样因癌症或心脏病在八九十岁离世。嗯。不。

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think, you know, it's hard to say, because there just aren't that many super old climbers. And then a lot of the ones that come to mind, like sort of famous old climbers, you know, mean, they dive the same ways that that everybody does, you know, like cancer or heart disease or whatever, but, like, in their late eighties or whatever. Mhmm. No.

我认为攀岩确实是种理想的养老方式。我认识不少五六十岁仍非常健壮的朋友。比如我那位在UNLV大学教哲学的朋友，他64岁了肌肉还异常发达。最近刚成为完成5.14难度（堪称精英级岩壁难度）的最年长记录保持者。

I I mean, I think climbing is a great way to age. I mean, I have a bunch of friends who are sort of fifties and sixties who are very fit. Like, actually, I mean, it comes to mind as a this friend of mine who's a philosophy professor at UNLV at at the university, but he's incredibly jacked. And I think he's 64 now. I think he just became the oldest person to climb a certain grade, like five fourteen, which is, like, kind of an elite rock climbing grade.

他可能是目前达成该成就的最高龄者。有次他在美国中部某酒店泳池参加学术会议时，居然有小孩问他能不能摸摸腹肌——那孩子从没见过这么真实的老人肌肉。

But I think he's maybe the oldest person to have done that now. But but he once told me, Sam, you know, that he was at some hotel pool, like in Middle America, like some conference or something. And some kid asked if he could touch his abs because he'd never seen he was like, are they real? You know, like real? Because he's like He's an old and he's Yeah.

他就像个48岁的教授，身材却像健美运动员。游泳池里有个小孩问他，我能摸摸吗？这是真的吗？你知道，我从没见过这样的身材。

He's like a 48 year old professor. He's like shredded. And some some kid in the pool was like, can I touch those? Is that real? Know, like, I've never seen a thing like that.

这充分说明了他的情况，也反映了我们国家的现状。没错，我们正深陷肥胖危机，这非常严重，已经超越了审美范畴。

Just says a lot about him and about the state of our country Yeah. Exactly. Are in this crisis of obesity. That's very serious. It goes beyond aesthetics.

是啊，我考虑过尝试攀岩。问题是当初我只想靠蛮力，光想着用臂力把自己拽上去。

Yeah, I've thought about getting into climbing. Mean, it's The problem I had is I tried to just raw strength it. I just tried to pull up my way.

很多人

A lot

这样显然很蠢，很快就会体力透支。

of And obviously that's foolish and you gas out really fast.

对，成年人常犯这个错误。特别是男性，尤其像你这样本来就有健身基础的人。总想用现成的能力解决问题，但其实需要腿部发力，讲究技巧和灵活性。

Yeah. That's a very common thing for adults. I mean, especially men, especially somebody like you who's already fit. And so you try to bring the tool you already have to it. And you're like, no, you gotta drive with your legs, go technique, mobility.

我常跟初学者说，攀岩时要想象在爬非常陡峭的楼梯——你依然是用腿走上台阶，扶手只是用来保持平衡，而不是靠手臂把自己拉上去。多数攀岩路线本质上就是陡楼梯。户外攀岩和室内攀岩馆有点不同，因为攀岩馆的墙面是完全垂直的，但户外岩壁通常都有一定倾斜度。

Like, you know, I like to say that anybody that tries climbing should think of it as climbing a really, really steep staircase where it's like you're still walking up the stairs and you're using the handrail to for balance, but you're not pulling yourself up the handrail. And most of climbing is basically a steep staircase. You know? I mean, especially outdoors and in climbing gyms is a little bit different because the wall is actually vertical. But outdoors, the wall is almost always a little bit less than vertical.

所以就像在爬一座极其陡峭的技术型楼梯，用手点当扶手来保持平衡，但推进力始终要来自双腿。

So it's like, basically, you're on a very, very steep and technical staircase, and then you're using the handrail like the handholds to keep you balanced on the wall. But your legs should always be driving you.

我...我还没爬过半圆顶，从没？

I I still haven't done Half Dome and Never?

你去过云歇峰好几次了吧？云歇

You've done Clouds Rest a bunch of Clouds

很多次了。跑过克劳兹瑞斯特，负重徒步过克劳兹瑞斯特，但半圆顶有那些钢缆。是啊。是啊。我从来不够有条理，没能在季节开始前及时报名。

bunch of times. Run Clouds Rest, ruck Clouds Rest, but Half Dome has those cables. Yeah. Yeah. It I never was organized enough to do the sign up early enough for the season.

等许可证季结束后再去就行。你知道钢缆全年都在那儿。所以当淡季时，他们会拆掉立柱，但钢缆还在，你随时可以爬。实际上淡季去更好，因为不需要许可，没人拥挤，特别清净。

Just do it after the permits. You know you know the cable stay up all year. So when it, like, when it's out of season, they take the uprights down, but the cables just sit there and you can do it anytime. It's actually way better to do it post, like, after the season because there's no permitting, there are no people, and it's, super chill.

好的。我绝对想去试试。

Okay. I definitely wanna do it.

对，就选淡季去。体验好得多。

Yeah. Just do it do it off season. It's way better.

我最担心的不是自己会摔下去，而是怕上面的人摔下来。

My biggest concern is not that I'm gonna fall, it's that someone above me is gonna fall.

但只要你反应够快就能避开，你知道，就像轻轻侧身

But when you're long enough to just glance them off, you know, just like shrug

把他们挡开。可能吧。我确实听过很多

them aside. Possibly. I did hear a lot

最理想是能接住他们。

Ideally, stop them.

是啊。最好能接住。嗯。我很想去。我从十几岁就开始去优胜美地了。

Yeah. Ideally stop them. Yeah. I'd love to do that. I've been going to Yosemite since I was in my teens.

我超爱那里。虽然不会说是第二个家，但简直是天堂。就像你知道的，其实我特别期待和你聊的原因之一，就是希望能让更多人走进国家公园，真正享受它们——从优胜美地到图奥勒米草甸的高山地区，我们有太多瑰宝了。

I love it up there. It's it's I wouldn't say it's my second home, but it's heaven. I mean, as as you know, and actually one of the reasons I'm excited to talk to you among others is that I would like more people to get into the national parks and really enjoy them because they're we have so many gems in Yosemite, the high country in Tuolumne Meadows to me

简直就像人间天堂。我是说，优胜美地是皇冠上的明珠。我认为它是美国最好最好的国家公园。

is like is heaven on earth. Yosemite, I mean, is a crown jewel. I mean, it's the I I think it's the best best national park in the country.

是啊。人们忘了从湾区或洛杉矶开车过去只要四小时左右。相当快。你会穿越多种不同地貌，然后突然之间，你就到了。

Yeah. People forget it's only about a four hour drive from the Bay Area from Los Angeles. It's pretty quick. You go through a bunch of different landscapes and then boom, suddenly you're there.

没错。那里就像天堂般美妙，令人难以置信。

Yeah. And it's like paradise. It's incredible.

我很好奇无保护独攀中那些作为外行观众认为最艰难的部分。但我想这项运动内部肯定存在一些我们意识不到的极高难度甚至危险之处。比如无保护独攀有哪些不为人知的难点？因为我总觉得，表面看起来最难的环节反而可能是相对简单的。

I'm curious about things in free soloing that as an uninformed spectator, we think, you know, that's the hardest part. That's the most difficult thing. But I imagine inside of the sport like any, that there are things that are very difficult and maybe even perilous that we're not aware of. Like, what's some of the non obvious aspects of free soloing if they exist? Because I always think, okay, you know, if I can imagine, oh, that's super tough, but that might be the easier or less tough.

通常这类运动都存在些隐性危险——我不愿称之为隐患。观众难以察觉的潜在风险有哪些？

Usually there are these kind of hidden, I don't wanna call them hidden dangers, but hidden dangers in a sport. What are some things that the observer wouldn't be aware of?

这个...我不太确定是否存在隐性危险。不过对于不攀岩的观众来说，那些显而易见的视觉危险...

Yeah. I'm I'm not sure. I'm not sure what the hidden dangers are. I would say, though, that the the obvious visual dangers, like, for a non climber just watching free soloing

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为他们普遍误判了所有潜在风险。他们看到后只会觉得'这太疯狂了'，但实际风险程度往往与视觉判断不符。因为单凭肉眼很难判断攀岩的难点所在——比如看到垂直岩壁时...

I think they generally misperceive all the dangers and risks involved. You know, they just see it and they're like, that's crazy. That's whatever, you know, and like, whatever they're bringing to it is probably not the actual case. Just because it's hard to visually tell what's challenging in climbing. You know, you're like, that's a vertical wall.

但如果垂直岩壁上有优质裂缝，其实攀爬起来既轻松又安全。反而是那些需要信任微小支点或脚法的路段...这些很难通过视觉评估，必须亲身实践才能体会。说实话，人们对无保护独攀的风险认知可能存在系统性偏差。

But if it's like a nice crack going over vertical wall, that's actually quite easy and secure climbing. But then some of the other stuff, you know, if they're really small holes or trusting your feet, I don't know. I mean, it's it's just really hard to judge that stuff visually. Like, you have to do it to to experience it. But I think that that, honestly, the whole perception of risk around free soloing is maybe slightly mis perceived by people.

以常规攀岩为例：假设你带着绳索装备传统攀登半圆顶。从地面起步时，总要先攀爬一段距离才能放置第一个保护点——这是攀岩的固有特性。在放置保护装备并扣入绳索前，你实质上就是在进行无保护攀登。即便有绳索保护，根据你距离上个保护点的高度、岩质状况等因素，攀岩始终存在风险系数。

So with climbing in general, like if you go climbing with a rope, like if you're a traditional climbing, like you're climbing with a rope and gear and you're gonna climb Half Dome, let's say. When you start climbing from the ground, you go some distance before you put your first piece of gear in, because that's just the nature of climbing. You go for ways and you put in some gear, you clip your rope into it, and then you're protected. Then for whatever distance you're going, you're essentially free soloing to that point. There's always risk involved in climbing because even if you have a rope on, depending how far you're going above your last piece of gear and what train is like and whether or not the rock is good and all these other factors, you know, you're more or less safe.

所以我认为人们看待无保护独攀时往往把它视为非此即彼的事情。比如，你没系绳子，那很危险。但其实任何时候攀岩都存在潜在危险，你需要不断评估并设法降低风险。我认为这是最大的误解——因为简单的无保护独攀，比如对一个曾是攀岩高手但三十年没碰岩壁的人来说，可能比某些高难度系绳攀登更安全。

And so I think people look at free soloing as like this binary. Like, you don't have a rope, that's dangerous. And you're kinda like, well, anytime you're climbing, there are dangers or there could be. And you're constantly evaluating those and and trying to mitigate them. And so I think that's that's the big misperception because easy free soloing is probably like if I'm somebody, you know, who's like an expert rock climber or whatever, I haven't climbed in thirty years.

如果我在进行简单的无保护独攀，那几乎肯定比某些高难度系绳攀登更安全。知道吗？实际上我攀岩时最恐怖的经历大多发生在系绳时，因为有了绳子，你会更愿意探索未知区域，总觉得转角处会有好抓点。结果你不断深入却发现根本没有可靠支点，情况越来越吓人——靠，我们能说脏话吗？

If I'm on an easy free solo, that's almost certainly safer than a very hard certain types of hard climbing with a rope on. You know? And most of my scariest experiences as a climber actually have been with a rope on because with a rope, you're much more willing to push yourself into unknown terrain because you're kind of like, surely there'll be something good just around the corner. And so you keep going around the corner and you keep not getting into good gear and you're like, holy shit, it's getting scarier and scare. Are we allowed to curse?

当然可以，随便说，互相骂都行。

Sure, yeah, yeah. Like Even at each other if you wanna curse it.

太好了。我很多最可怕的经历都发生在系绳时，因为你总想着'肯定会变好的'，结果情况越来越糟。突然就陷入一旦坠落必死无疑的境地——但如果没有绳子你根本不会爬到那里，因为无保护时你会保守得多。没绳子时只要感觉不对就会立即撤退，根本不会冒险推进。

Yeah, perfect. But so a lot of my scariest experience have been with a rope on because you're kind of like, I'm sure it'll get better, I'm sure it'll get better and it keeps getting worse and worse. And then pretty soon you're in some position where you're definitely gonna die if you fall, but you never would have climbed into that position if you didn't have a rope on because you're just so much more conservative when you're ropeless. And when you're ropeless, you're kind of like, if something seems wrong, you just go down, you know, because you're just not gonna push that far.

我看过《徒手攀岩》那部电影，实在太刺激了。我

I saw the movie Maru. That was pretty intense. I

那正是系绳时疯狂推进的典型案例。知道吗？就因为有了绳子，你才会不断深入未知领域，最终陷入'这他妈也太极端了'的境地。

mean, that's an example of pushing really freaking far with a rope on. You know? It's like because you have a rope, you're willing to just keep pushing into the unknown pushing into the unknown. But then you wind up in a position where you're like, this is pretty freaking extreme. You know?

就像电影里那样，整个场面完全疯狂。

It's like, I mean, you saw the film. It's it's all totally insane.

没错，确实疯狂。而且我觉得冰雪环境又增加了全新维度。在你们无保护独攀这项运动中，旁观者的想法往往是'这些家伙一旦失手就完蛋了'

Yeah. It is insane. And I feel like ice and snow bring a whole other dimension. Yeah. I think that in your sport, in free soloing, like the the idea from the spectator side is, you know, like these guys, like one fall and they're dead.

对吧？但我听你说过事实并非如此。

Right? I've heard you say before that's actually not true.

这个嘛...某种程度上确实会死。

I mean, yeah. It's kind of true.

不想坠落，但

Don't wanna fall, but

是的。比如，大多数地方如果你摔下去确实会丧命。但当我小时候刚开始无保护独攀时——不是说我只做这个——在我早期的无保护攀登经历中，心底总有个声音：一旦失足就会死。懂吗？而现实是，有无数地方即使脚滑了其他部位也能稳住。

Yeah. Like, It's true that most places if you fall off, you're gonna die. But like when I started free soloing as as a a kid, not that I like started and then only did that, but on my first free solos when I was young, in the back of my mind, it always be like, if you slip, you'll die. You know? And the reality is that there are tons of places where your foot can slip and nothing else moves.

明白吗？比如双手牢牢扣住岩点，身体紧贴岩壁时脚滑了，你只会想'哦脚滑了'然后继续爬。这没什么大不了。当然也有些地方脚滑必死无疑，关键是要区分这两种情况。

You know? Like, your hands are locked on, you're holding on tight, and your foot slipped, and you're just kinda like, oh, my foot slipped, and you keep climbing. It's no big deal. I mean, there are also some places where if your foot slips, you're gonna die for sure. And the key is differentiating between those.

但我觉得初学时总认为任何失误都会致命。随着经验积累，你会发现其实很多意外都能化险为夷。只需确保致命错误不在致命时刻发生。

But I think when I started, you know, it was like, if anything happens, you'll die. And as you do it more, you're actually like, no. I mean, a lot of things can happen, and it'll be fine. You just have to make sure that wrong thing doesn't happen at the wrong time.

你提到无保护攀登者往往死于其他事故而非独攀时，我很惊讶。这让我非常着迷——不是出于病态兴趣，而是有多重原因。能否详细说说？

I was surprised to hear you say that, yes, free soloists die, but oftentimes they die not free soloing. They die doing other things. I'm fascinated by this, not through a morbid fascination, but for a number of reasons. So maybe you could elaborate on that a little

嗯。纪录片《Free Solo》里有句台词，我朋友汤米·考德威尔——著名攀岩者——说'所有顶尖无保护攀登者现在都死了'，听起来像是他们都死于独攀。但事实上几乎没人真正死于独攀。

bit. Yeah. There's a there's a quote in the film Free Solo where a friend of mine, Tommy Caldwell, who's a very well known climber, says something like, all the people who are big free solos are dead now. And it kind of implies like, you know, free solos is dangerous and they all died soloing. But the reality is that basically none of them died soloing.

可能有一两人死于独攀。但我更倾向这个统计：从没有人死于突破极限的攀登。倒是有些无保护攀登者死于简单路线，比如休闲攀爬时岩点断裂——具体原因永远成谜。而更多知名无保护攀登者死于翼装飞行、低空跳伞等事故，还有个被疯狗浪卷走的。

Like, one or two solos have died soloing. Though, my preferred statistic is that no one has ever died doing something cutting edge. So like no one has ever died pushing the envelope, like doing something extreme. There have been a couple of free solos who have died free soloing easy terrain, like just out doing something casual and maybe a hold breaks or maybe something happens like it's impossible to know what because they die. But then the bulk of other people who are sort of known for free soloing have died either in parachuting accidents like wingsuiting or base jumping, or one got swept out to sea by a rope wave.

都是些离奇意外。有个死于车祸的。你会发现这些就是普通死因。所以无保护独攀未必是最危险的。

It's kind of a freak thing. One died in a car accident. You notice, like, things like, you know, it's basically just ways that people die. So all that I say is not clear that free salt lane is the most dangerous.

我们已故朋友肯·布洛克——著名拉力赛车手，曾与本播客摄影师迈克·布莱巴克合作，也是DC品牌创始人之一——竟死于雪地摩托事故。这在他日常生活的犹他州本很平常。再看所谓极限运动从业者...

We have a friend who unfortunately is dead now, Ken Block, who is a famous rally car driver and did with our photographer here at the podcast, Mike Blayback and and film crews with DC did he developed he was one of the founders of DC, like DC shoes, DC skateboarding, etcetera, rally car. Unfortunately, he died in a snowmobiling accident. So something very like kinda conventional for his daily life. He lived out in Utah and, you know, obviously a huge tragedy. And then you go look at kind of people who do quote unquote extreme sports, for lack of a better term.

嗯。你会发现顶尖运动员常死于其他爱好。不禁要问：是他们太放松了？正如你所说，无保护攀登者极少死于高难度路段，或许正是精神戒备松懈所致。

Mhmm. And you find that it's fairly common for people who are at the peak of their of a of a field, of a sport to die doing something else that they really enjoy. And you kinda wonder, like, are they pushing themselves or is it that they're they're just a little too relaxed? Because as you said, rarely do free soloists die like in the most difficult aspects of the climb. So maybe it's that letting go of the mental engagement.

就像他们对危险的定义标准发生了变化。除非需要被锁住，否则就是有些细节上的疏忽。我这基本上是在试图救你的命。是的，不，我感激这一点。除了自由独攀，你做任何其他事情都要非常、非常小心。

Like there's a change in the threshold of what they consider dangerous. Unless they need to be locked in, there's just some lack of attention to detail. This is my way of trying to save your life basically. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Anything you're doing besides resoloing, be very, very careful.

控制一下。是的，我们需要不，我的意思是，我也怀疑我们谈论的所有这些人都有点，他们总体上就是更爱冒险。他们更愿意做诸如开快车之类的事情。就是更愿意在生活中冒险，我想这些迟早会追上你或可能追上。不过话说回来，在自由独攀方面，上一代世界上最优秀的两位自由独攀者仍然健在，年纪大了，过着最好的生活，做着自己的事情。

Rain it in. Yeah, we need No, to mean, I also would suspect that all of the people that we're talking about are all just a little, they're just bigger risk takers in general. They're just more willing to do things like drive quickly and do whatever. Just more willing to take risk in their life and I suppose sooner or later those things catch up with you or they can. Though that said with free soloing, two of the world's best free soloists from the previous generations are still alive, older men just living their best lives, doing their thing.

还在自由

Still free

独攀？是的。也许不是在超级高的水平，也许没有逼自己太紧，但肯定可以。有个叫彼得·克罗夫特的人，他是加拿大人，但一直住在美国。他就像我成长过程中的童年英雄，他非常了不起。

soloing? Yeah. Maybe not at like a super high level, maybe not pushing themselves hard, but yeah, like certainly could. So a man named Peter Croft, he's a Canadian but has lived in The US forever. He was, like, my childhood hero growing up, and he's incredible.

实际上，有一部电影里有他，或者说电影《Free Solo》中有一个他的场景。他们有点把他塑造成导师的形象。老实说，他并不是导师，因为我太害怕了，甚至不敢和他说话，因为他就像我个人的英雄。但他真的很棒，人超级好。

So actually, there's a film with him or a a scene with him in the film Free Solo. He's kind of like a they kinda frame him as, like, a mentor figure, though. Honestly, he wasn't a mentor because I was too afraid to ever even talk to him because he was, like, such a personal hero. But, I mean, he's such a he's incredible. He's super nice guy.

现在我们俩都受到The North Face的赞助，所以我们成了朋友。我们在同一个团队。所以我在活动上和他一起玩过。有一次我和他一起吃晚饭，我有点像是问，你是什么时候停止前沿的自由独攀的？

And so I'm we're both sponsored by The North Face now, so we're friends. We're on the same team. And so I've, like, hung out with him at events and things. And I I was having dinner with him once. I was kind of like, Oh, what point did you kind of end the cutting edge free soloing?

他说，哦，实际上，我做过几次最难的独攀，就难度等级而言，不一定是技术最前沿的，但难度最大的几次是在过去几年里。我说，真的吗？他现在仍然在做这些事，保持状态，充满热情。他大概五十多岁或六十岁左右。但他仍然非常了不起。

And he was like, Oh, actually, I did a couple of my hardest solos, like in terms of grades, like not necessarily the most cutting edge, but kind of the hardest grades or within the last several years. And I was like, Really? And he'd still, you know, he's still just like kind of doing stuff and fit and he psyched and and he's gotta be I I don't know. I don't wanna offend him, but he's gotta be like mid fifties or like maybe 60. Like, you know, he's he's And he's just still incredible.

他仍然经常攀岩。甚至在休息日，他会去同一个攀岩区和朋友聊天，带他的狗去悬崖边之类的地方。所以，我看着像他这样的人，基本上把一生都献给了自由独攀。我就想，如果你小心行事，做出好的决定，我不认为这一定会很危险。

He's still climbing all the time. Even And on his rest days, goes down into the same climbing areas to hang out with his friends and chitchat and like take his dog to the cliff and stuff. So, I look at somebody like him who's basically made an entire life of free soloing. I'm kind of like, if you do it carefully, make good decisions. I don't think it has to be sketchy.

能和童年时的英雄成为朋友和同事，这有多棒？

How awesome is it that your friends and coworkers with one of your childhood heroes?

哦，这太棒了。实际上，我认为成为职业攀岩者最好的事情之一就是，小时候仰望的很多人现在成了朋友和同行，这感觉太棒了。哇，是的。你能和你的英雄们一起玩，这真是我从未想象过的。

Oh, it's the best. That's actually, I think one of the best things about being a professional climber is so many of the people that I was that I looked up to as a kid, you know, and now our friends and peers and things, and you're like, it's so great. Wow. Yeah. You get to like hang out with your heroes and you're like, I never would have imagined.

是啊。不，这太棒了。

Yeah. No, it's amazing.

现在外面有些年轻人也在这么想。就像，我太害怕走到亚历克斯面前打招呼了，而且

There's some young kid out there now thinking the same. It's like, I'm too afraid to go up to Alex and say hello And

他们应该直接打招呼。对。我不...但有些...以同样的方式对吧？就像...没错。完全同意。

They they should just say hello. Yeah. I don't But some In the same right? Way that Yeah. Totally.

我是说，就像我年轻时特别害怕和彼得说话那样。而现在他不过是个友善的普通人，我们还成了朋友。一起攀岩。很棒。所以，真的，任何人都该主动问好。

I mean, in the same way that I was, like, so afraid to ever talk to Peter when I was young. And then ultimately, now he's just another nice guy and we're friends. We climb together. It's great. Sort of like, yeah, anybody should just say hi.

你看，如果他们在岩壁下，就过来聊聊。毕竟我们都在做同样的事。

You know, it's like if they're at the if we're at the cliff, like, come chat. You know, it's like we're all doing the same thing.

我想稍作休息感谢我们的赞助商AG1。AG1是款含维生素矿物质益生菌的饮品，还添加了益生元和适应原。如大家所知，我服用AG1已超过十三年。早在2012年还没做播客时就发现了它，此后每天饮用。十三年来，AG1始终保持着原始风味。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for more than thirteen years now. I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast and I've been drinking it every day since. For the past thirteen years, AG1 has been the same original flavor.

配方虽有升级，但风味始终如一。现在AG1首次推出三种新口味：浆果、柑橘和热带风味。所有口味都含有精确配比的顶级成分，共同支持肠道菌群、免疫健康，并提供更佳能量等。现在你可以选择最喜欢的AG1口味了。我一直钟爱原味，特别是加水兑点柠檬或青柠汁的喝法，这习惯我保持了近十三年。

They've updated the formulation, but the flavor has always remained the same. And now for the first time, AG1 is available in three new flavors, berry, citrus, and tropical. All the flavors include the highest quality ingredients in exactly the right doses to together provide support for your gut microbiome, support for your immune health and support for better energy and more. So now you can find the flavor of AG1 that you like the most. Well, I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially when I mix it with water and a little bit of lemon or lime juice, that's how I've been doing it for basically thirteen years.

现在我特别中意新出的浆果味。口感很棒，无需再加柠檬汁，直接用水冲调即可。若想尝试AG1及新口味，请访问drinkag1.com/huberman领取特别优惠。目前AG1正赠送迎新套装，含五份旅行装和免费维生素D3K2一瓶。

Now I really enjoy the new berry flavor in particular. It tastes great and I don't have to add any lemon or lime juice. I just mix it up with water. If you'd like to try AG1 and these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. Right now, AG1 is giving away an AG1 welcome kit that includes five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3K2.

重申：访问drinkag1.com/huberman可领取含五份旅行装和维生素D3K2的特别迎新套装。本期节目也由茂宜岛鹿肉赞助。茂宜岛鹿肉是营养最丰富美味的红肉，且来源符合伦理。他们在茂宜岛猎捕野生轴鹿。

Again, to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim the special welcome kit of five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3K2. Today's episode is also brought to us by Maui Nui Venison. Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient dense and delicious red meat available. It's also ethically sourced. Maui Nui hunts and harvest wild access deer on the island of Maui.

这既解决了入侵物种管理问题，又创造了优质蛋白来源。如我之前在播客所述，多数人每日应摄取每磅体重一克优质蛋白质。这能优化肌肉蛋白合成，同时抑制食欲并维持代谢健康。鉴于茂宜岛鹿肉卓越的蛋白质热量比，实现该目标无需摄入过多热量。每份鹿肉含21克蛋白质仅107卡路里，对注重增肌或维持代谢健康者堪称理想比例。

This solves the problem of managing an invasive species while also creating an extraordinary source of protein. As I've discussed on this podcast before, most people should aim for getting one gram of quality protein per pound of body weight each day. This allows for optimal muscle protein synthesis while also helping to reduce appetite and support proper metabolic health. Given Maui Nui's exceptional protein to calorie ratio, this protein target is achievable without having to eat too many calories. Their venison delivers 21 grams of protein with only 107 grams per serving, which is an ideal ratio for those of us concerned with maintaining or increasing muscle mass while supporting metabolic health.

他们有鹿肉排、鹿肉馅和鹿骨汤。我个人全都喜欢。事实上，我几乎每天都会吃一个Maui Nui的鹿肉汉堡。如果没吃汉堡，我就会吃他们的鹿排。有时我也会喝他们的骨汤。

They have venison steaks, ground venison, and venison bone broth. I personally love all of them. In fact, I probably eat a Maui Nui venison burger pretty much every day. And if I don't do that, I eat one of their steaks. And sometimes I also consume their bone broth.

如果你在赶时间，他们有Maui Nui鹿肉棒，每根含有10克蛋白质却只有55卡路里。我每天至少吃一根来满足蛋白质需求。现在Maui Nui正为Huberman播客听众提供限量版我最喜爱的切割部位和产品系列。对于任何想通过美味优质蛋白质改善饮食的人来说都是完美选择。库存有限，请立即访问mauenuivenison.com/huberman获取这些优质肉类。

And if you're on the go, they have Maui Nui venison sticks, which have 10 grams of protein per stick with just 55 calories. I eat at least one of those a day to meet my protein requirements. Right now, Maui Nui is offering Huberman podcast listeners a limited collection of my favorite cuts and products. It's perfect for anyone looking to improve their diet with delicious high quality protein. Supplies are limited, so go to mauenuivenison.com/huberman to get access to this high quality meat today.

再次强调，网址是mauinuivenesen.com/huberman。大多数攀登者在成长过程中，如果他们怀有成为顶尖无保护独攀者或其他类型攀登者的抱负，他们通常会兼顾其他工作吗？还是说这是全身心投入的生活方式，比如住在房车里？当然在取得一定财务自由后也可以选择这种生活。我们知道你这样做过，我们可以聊聊这个话题。

Again, that's mauinuivenesen.com/huberman. Do most climbers as they're coming up, if they have aspirations to be, you know, great free soloists or other types of climbers, do they tend to work and do other things or is this like all in, it's lifestyle, you live in a van. I mean, you can do that also after achieving some degree of financial success. We know you've done that. We can talk about that.

但这是否意味着必须放弃生活的其他方面才能真正精通这项运动？

But is it the kind of thing where you have to give up other aspects of life in order to get really, really good at it?

这是个有趣的问题。我不完全确定，因为在某些方面——这取决于你如何定义作为攀登者的成功。如果你想挑战最高难度等级或参加奥运会这类赛事，某种程度上你反而更适合当个大学生或保持规律作息，这样反而会限制你的攀登时间。因为——虽然我对其他运动了解不深——我猜这类似于举重之类的运动，要想变得非常非常强壮，其实每隔几天训练一会儿然后恢复就够了。

That's an interesting question. I'm not totally sure because in some ways so it depends what you mean by achieving success as a climber. Because if you're trying to climb the hardest grades or go to the Olympics or things like that, in some ways, you're almost better off being a university student or something like having a structured schedule that in some ways limits the amount that you can climb. Because, you know, I don't know enough about other sports, but I I suspect this is akin to, like, power lifting or something. Whereas, like, if you're trying to be really, really strong, you kind of only need to do a little bit every couple days and then recover.

所以对于攀登的精英级体能训练，你实际上只需要每周进行四到五次、每次三四个小时的训练。剩下的时间你该做什么？完全可以有份工作。所以我很多以编写代码为生的朋友，由于这种时间安排带来的规律性，反而成为了非常强悍的攀登者。不过话说回来，如果你想成为伟大的无保护独攀者或大型冒险攀登者，可能住在房车里持续不断地练习会更合适。因为这类攀登追求的不是肌肉的巅峰表现。

And so for a sort of elite physical training for climbing, you really only need, you know, say three or four hour sessions, four or five days a week. And then it's like, what do you do with the rest of your time? And so like, you might as well have a job or and so a lot of my friends who like write code for a living or, you know, do things like that are very, very strong climbers because of the the the the schedule that allows the structure. That said, I think if you wanna be a great free soloist or like a big adventure climber, you're probably better off living in a van and just doing the thing nonstop. Because for that, you're not trying to have that peak muscular performance.

你只是需要持续学习和磨练技能。所以某种程度上，投入的练习时长反而更重要。

You're trying to just learn a skill and do something all the time. And so then like hours of practice, think matter more in a way.

既然谈到训练时长，或许我们可以聊聊恢复。我猜你现在的恢复方式与过去不同。你在训练间隙如何恢复？是桑拿和冷疗的忠实信徒吗？还是基本上只靠睡眠？

Maybe we can talk a little bit about recovery as long as we're talking about, you know, number of hours that one puts in. I'm sure your recovery looks different than it used to. But what do you do to recover between sessions? Are you big believer in sauna, cold? Is it it's just basically sleep?

不是。我喜欢推我三岁的孩子荡秋千——这就是我的恢复方式。和孩子们在秋千上玩耍，尽量保持良好饮食。

No. I'd like push my three year old on the swings. You know? Like, that's how it recovers. I like play with the kids on the swings and and I try to I mean, you know, I I try to eat relatively well.

我努力保证充足睡眠，做好所有基本的恢复措施。但说到底就是在训练间隙维持状态。其实我刚和人开玩笑说，24岁独自住在房车里时，疯狂攀登一整天后，休息日我会躺在床上刷完整季剧集，吃掉一整盒奥利奥，连房车门都不出。

I try to sleep enough. Like, I do all the basics for recovery. But but no, mean, basically just survive in between. I was actually just joking with somebody that I think, you know, as a as a 24 year old living by myself in a van, I would have crazy days of climbing. And then on a rest day, I would, like, binge watch an entire season of some show while eating an entire flat Oreos, just, like, never even leave the bed in my van.

然后第二天出去，比如，去刷新某项速度记录，或者就是那种‘我太兴奋了’的状态。你知道吗？而现在我，呃，肯定不会再那么做了。至少，不，我已经很久没那样了。因为就是没时间，也没有那种精力了。

And then the next day go out and, like, do a speed record on something or just be like, I'm oh, I'm so psyched. You know? And now I'm, like, I'm definitely not doing that now. Or at least, no, I haven't done that in forever. Because I just don't have the time and don't have yeah.

所以我觉得现在恢复需要更多努力，而且可能速度也慢了些。

So I think now it takes a little more effort to recover and it's just a little slower probably.

但这很难说

So But it's hard to say

不过很大程度上是因为有了孩子，生活中对时间的要求也不同了。

though because a lot of that's just having kids and and just having different demands of of time in life.

但听起来攀岩者在训练和技巧上很草根。就像，你知道的，很多其他领域那样。

But it sounds like climbers are pretty grassroots in their training and techniques. Like, you know, in a lot of other areas.

是啊，我是说，当时住在货车里。基本上就是超低开销，没有团队，没有支持。整整十年住在车里不停地攀岩。所以那是个相当简陋的方式。我觉得这些年来，攀岩变得稍微职业化了点，有更多资金和支持，竞争水平也更高了。

Yeah, I mean, was living in a van. I was basically like, super low overhead, no team, no support. I'm just living in a car doing the thing nonstop for a decade. And so that's a pretty scrappy approach. And I think that in the years since then, climbing is professionalized a little bit and there's a little more money, there's a little more support and there's just a higher level of competition.

现在光靠那样可能更难取得成就了。我觉得得有个更周全的计划才行。

Think it'd be harder to achieve things doing just that now. I think you'd have to have a little more of a plan.

是啊。我忍不住觉得高压氧舱、红光疗法、按摩枪这些玩意儿迟早会进入——

Yeah. I can't help but sense that hyperbaric chambers and red light and massage guns and all that are gonna be making their way into

按摩枪肯定已经用上了。筋膜枪也在用。我偶尔会试着滚压放松。即使住在货车里时，我也会拉伸和滚压做这些，因为必须保持身体柔韧。

the Massage guns for sure are there. Machines guns are there. I tried to like roll out every once in a while. Even when I was living in my van, would stretch and roll out and do those types of things because you just kind of have to stay supple.

嗯。你感觉怎么样？身体状态如何？

Yeah. How do you feel? How's your body feel?

嗯，我是说，目前我觉得相当不错。我知道。是的。我住在拉斯维加斯。在家时，我尽量每周去城里看一次身体理疗师帕特，可爱的帕特，他真的很棒。

Well, I mean, right now, I think pretty good. I know. Yeah. When I'm I live in Las Vegas. When I'm at home, I try to see this bodyworker in town once a week, Pat, sweet Pat, he's the man.

所以，你知道，我把这看作是一种基本的保养，就像换机油一样。嗯。就像是确保发动机运转顺畅。嗯。而且我认为正是由于这样的身体护理，我多年来都没有出现过严重的过度使用损伤。

And so, you know, I think of that as kind of like a basic just taking care of, you know, making it's like an oil change. Mhmm. It's like making sure the engine runs smoothly. Mhmm. And and I think as a result of bodywork like that, I I haven't had any major, like, overuse injuries in in years.

所以，对我来说，这已经相当不错了。

And so, like, that's that's pretty good for me.

太棒了。是的。也许这只是因为历史上我所知道的，但我看到了很多与滑板运动的相似之处，比如曾经有一段时间，没有滑板运动员会举重或做任何类似的训练。是的，完全正确。后来这种情况开始改变。实际上，丹尼·韦曾飞跃中国长城。

Awesome. Yeah. Maybe it's just because it's historically, it was what I knew, but I'm seeing so many parallels with skateboarding where, like, there was this time when no skateboarders lifted weights or did any kind of Yeah, totally. Then that started to happen. Actually Danny Way jumped the Great Wall Of China.

他算是滑板界第一个这样做的人，他会做颈部训练，因为他在纽波特冲浪时摔断了脖子。他还做一些核心训练，比如那种在头顶摆动球的动作。我记得那时候我觉得自己已经有点离开滑板运动了。

He was kind of the first person in skateboarding to like, he would do like neck training because he had broken his neck surfing in Newport. And he was doing like these, you know, like the where you like swing the ball above your head. He was doing core work. And I remember back then thinking I'd sort of left skateboarding.

是的。变得边缘化了。

Yeah. Was going fringe.

我当时在想

And I was thinking like

那很奇怪。

That's weird.

滑板运动员们对此很有意见，因为这不符合当时的文化。现在有很多人会锻炼身体并照顾自己。但仍有很多人完全不这么做，他们依然非常厉害。他们的能量饮料就像是啤酒，所谓的“益智药”就是香烟，但他们依然表现出色。

Like skateboarders are just like really have a problem with this because it wasn't consistent with the culture. Now there are a lot of guys who who work out and take care of their bodies. But there are still a lot of guys who absolutely kill it. They're incredible. And their energy drink is like a beer, and they're quote unquote nootropic is cigarettes and they murder it.

他们超级棒。所以我喜欢这类运动，因为你无法绕过投入大量时间练习这一关。然后你可以选择摇滚路线，也可以选择自我保养路线，有时候人们会交叉尝试，但你知道，两种方式都行得通。真的。

They're super good. And so I like these sports where it's like you can't get around just investing a massive number of hours doing it. And then there you can either take the kind of rock and roll track into it, or you can take the kind of self care track and sometimes people cross over, but, you know, it works either way. It really does.

攀岩运动至今仍存在这种两面性选择。但我确实认为，从长远来看，自我保健的路线显然会胜出。我是说，攀岩进入奥运会后带来的专业主义等等因素。显然，自我保健对长期发展更有利。这就像，你知道，每个人都明白这个道理。

Climbing still has that exact same thing going on where you can kind of go either way. I do think though that the self care track will obviously win out long term. I mean, that's the thing with climbing and being in the Olympics and just the professionalism, all that. I mean, obviously, self care is better for you long term. Like, you know, every everybody knows that.

话虽如此，你仍能看到许多技术纯熟的攀岩者——没错，就是那种热衷派对、拼命玩乐的。因为攀岩很大程度上取决于实际攀爬时的投入程度。如果你每周爬好几次，每次都用尽全力，你绝对会变得非常厉害——无论你是否做红光疗法或其他稀奇古怪的辅助训练。所以归根结底，关键在于你在攀爬时的付出。嗯。

That said, you still see a lot of very proficient climbers who, yeah, exactly, just kinda party, go hard. I mean, because so much of climbing just comes down to effort when you're doing the thing. Like, if you go climbing several days a week and you try your absolute hardest every time you're climbing, you're gonna get pretty freaking good, you know, whether you do red light therapy or, like, any of the weird other stuff or not. So it's like I mean, it really just comes down to your effort doing the thing. Mhmm.

因此没错。我是说，很多攀岩者——尤其是过去的——确实靠着香烟、咖啡和啤酒过活。这样也能勉强维持。

And so yeah. I mean, you could live and I I mean, a lot of climbers, especially in the past, lived on a diet of of, you know, cigarettes and coffee and and freaking beer. And, you know, you can you can you can get by that way.

是啊。七八十年代的老派作风。

Yeah. The 1970s, eighties approach.

这并不理想。

It's not ideal.

确实不理想。我有个朋友汤姆·比利厄，他在商界很成功，也有自己的播客。前几天他对我说，当年轻人请教如何在商业或其他领域精进时，他就告诉对方：『要像智能手机不存在那样工作』。意思是感到无聊时就去钻研正事。

It's not ideal. A friend of mine, Tom Billieux, he he is very successful in business. He also has a podcast. He was saying to me the other day, he goes, yeah, basically when young people ask him, you know, how to get good at whatever business or anything, he just tells them work as if smartphones didn't exist. Meaning when you're bored, go work on the thing.

当然不是鼓励人们抛弃手机。但我很好奇你与技术的关系——如今即便奥运选手也很难摆脱赞助商压力和通讯压力。对于新人来说，这种『必须随时保持联系』的观念不仅限制身体训练量，更侵蚀着心智空间。

When you don't have anything, like if you get rid, not encouraging people get rid of their smartphone. But I'm curious about your relationship to technology because I think nowadays, even though there are people training for the Olympics and whatnot, that it is very hard to disengage from pressures of sponsors, pressures of just sheer communications. Right? And if you're coming up, this idea that you always have to be in contact with people. It limits the total number of reps that you're that you get physically, but also mentally.

因为我猜过去有很多躺在床上思考攀岩的时光。嗯。就像我读研时躺在床上构思实验那样。现在这个场景大概会变成——举个例——抱着手机刷屏。

Because I imagine there was a lot of time sitting back in bed and thinking about climbing. Mhmm. Just like I used to sit back in bed and think about experiments and, you know, when I was in graduate school. Now I'd probably that Now that's a example. On my phone.

没错。

Yeah.

我过去常思考实验设计、图表呈现和各种可能性。所以你对『与攀岩无关的深度思考』有什么看法？

I used to think about experiments and figures and what would this work and that work. So what are your thoughts on kind of a mental engagement separate from climbing?

不，我认为那绝对是件大事。我的意思是，我过去曾想过，在某些方面我觉得自己很幸运，因为我是在攀岩运动还未被智能手机、社交媒体渗透的时代成长起来的——那时你只需住在车里，专注攀岩，那就是你的全部生活方式。现在我虽然拥有所有社交媒体账号，但手机上一个应用都没装，而是让朋友帮我打理。

No. I think that's that's definitely a big thing. I mean, I think I've I've thought in the past that in some ways I feel kind of lucky that I came up when I did in climbing where it's like sort of pre smartphone, pre social, pre you know, you just live in your car and you do the thing and that's it, and and that's your whole lifestyle. I mean, currently, you know, I I have all the social media accounts and things, but I don't have any of the apps on my phone. I have a friend that manages it for me.

我喜欢把内容都发给她，由她来发布。这样能很好地让我避免无目的刷屏。反正我现在也没这个时间，宁愿陪孩子玩也绝对不刷手机。不过说真的，这种情况确实挺难应对的。

I like sending all the content to her, but she posts stuff. And so it's a nice way to sort of disconnect myself from from scrolling aimlessly. I don't really have the time anymore anyway. You know, it's like I'd rather play with my kids than than for sure scroll. You know, it's like but, no, I mean, that's that's tough.

我觉得现在的小孩成长环境很艰难，他们会认为时刻保持在线、记录一切、分享内容才是常态。我一直认为职业攀岩者的核心就是攀岩能力——首要关键是你能爬得非常好，最重要的是专注攀爬本身。当你沉迷于发布、分享、直播这些事时，那根本不是真正的攀岩。

I mean, I think it'd be hard to be a kid now growing up, like, thinking that that's the norm, that you, like, have to be connected, that you have to capturing everything, you know, documenting and then sharing it and posting and just all this stuff. I've always felt like the thing about being a professional climber is that you just have to be a good climber. Like, first and foremost, the key to being a professional climber is being able to climb really well. And, like, the most important thing is doing the thing. And I just think when you get caught up in all the the posting, sharing, streaming, all the whatever, that's not doing the thing.

懂我意思吗？但人们很容易混淆这些概念...我也说不好。是的，这确实会非常困难。

You know? But but it's easy to conflate them and it's I don't know. Yeah. No. I think it'd be really hard.

完全同意。有个不为人知的秘密：如果你想在社交媒体上展现有趣的内容，关键恰恰是要远离社交媒体——这样你才有真实素材可分享。太对了。

Yeah, I agree completely. The hidden secret is that if you want something interesting just show on social media, the key is to not be on social media so you have something to bring to Totally.

真正精通某件事太难了。这和我们刚才讨论的自由独攀与风险认知有关——让独攀看起来很酷太容易了。比如我爬这栋大楼外墙，看起来会非常疯狂，能收获无数点赞，人们觉得厉害，但这根本不算前沿。

It's just so hard to actually be good at something. And this goes back to what we were just talking about with free soloing and perceived risk and all that kind of is it is really easy to make something look rad soloing wise. Like, you know, I could climb I could climb the outside of this building, and it would, like, look insane. It would get tons of likes. People think it's cool, but it's not cutting edge.

这既不酷也不难，根本不算什么。但要做出真正突破性的、值得报道的攀岩成就，那真是难如登天。嗯。

It's not cool. It's not even hard. Like, it's not it's it's whatever. But to actually do something that's cutting edge or newsworthy in in climbing, it's it's pretty freaking hard. Mhmm.

明白吗？社交媒体的挑战在于，它让人可以...我不想说'造假'，因为人们并非蓄意欺骗...但你能不费吹灰之力就获得巨大反响。比如做了件简单的事却被当成壮举，然后就满足于此。

You know? And and the challenge with with social and with public, all that kind of stuff is that it's just so easy to I don't wanna say to fake it because it's not like people are out there, like, trying to be duplicitous or, like, to to trick you. But it's just you can get the same splash with none of the effort, you know, in through through social stuff, I think. You're like, oh, I just did something easy and people thought it was amazing. Let's call that good.

但这样根本不行，因为太简单了。这既不前沿也不酷。

And you're like, well, that's just not good because it's easy. It's freaking you know, like, it's not cutting edge. It's not rad.

显然你在追求宏大目标。这个目标极其艰巨，我知道你听过无数次了——如果这让你感到光荣的尴尬，那很好。这可能是人类史上最震撼的体能壮举之一，因为坠落就意味着死亡。在攀登过程中或许有那么几个瞬间...

I mean, you clearly go after big, big goals. I mean, it's it's a it's a giant goal. I think it really stands, and I know you've been told this many times before, so if it embarrasses you in a positive way, then great. I mean, it stands as perhaps at least one of the most impressive physical feats in history because the risk consequence scenario there was you fall, you can potentially die. There may have been moments along the along the climb

短暂瞬间。是啊。瞬间。你正悬在悬崖边缘。你会想，哦，哇。

Brief moments. Yeah. Moments. You're right above a ledge. You're like, oh, wow.

没错。好吧。所以这很符合你的风格，去指出那些瞬间而非其他时刻。这确实反映了你的思维方式。但我觉得追求宏大目标，比如你知道的，建造火箭登月这种事。

Yes. So okay. So and it's and it's so like you to to point out those moments as opposed to all the other moments. It really speaks to your mindset. But I think that going after big things, I mean, you know, you know, building rockets to go to the moon.

记得我小时候，丹尼·韦德决定直播飞跃长城。之前有人骑山地车尝试时丧生了。我记得自己盯着巴掌大的屏幕观看时心想：我认识这家伙——虽然现在失联了——但大概从13岁起，他就总在挑战极限，跳直升机啊，飞跃长城啊。有些人就是不断突破自我。所以我好奇的是，你日常攀岩时，有没有纯粹为了乐趣而爬的时候？

Remember when I was a kid, Danny Wade decided to jump the Great Wall Of China to do it live. Someone had died trying it on a mountain bike. I remember thinking, I watched it on a little screen this big. And I was like, I've known that guy since we're out of touch now, but for the most part, but since it was like 13 and he was always going after big things, jumping out of helicopters, you know, jumping the Great Wall Of China, like, know, and then there are people who just push themselves. And so what I wonder is on a daily basis, when you climb, do you ever just climb for fun?

你攀岩时是否总在攻克某个目标？《徒手攀岩》里有著名场景，你刚完成攀登下来，转眼又在练指力板。你享受训练日常——顺便说这符合通过过程保持多巴胺分泌的理念，避免了很多人完成大项目后的空虚感，比如卖掉大公司之类。但你思维转换得多快？在攀岩领域，毕竟你已为人父，生活还有其他面向，你对自己人生和攀岩的规划是怎样的？

When you climb, are you always working on something? And there's this famous scene in Free Solo, like more or less immediately after you got down from climb, you're finger boarding again, and like you're training and you're enjoying your routine, which by the way is consistent with keeping the dopamine flowing for process as opposed to like the postpartum depression that many people experience after a big feed is completed, selling a big company, etcetera. You avoid all that by doing exactly what you're doing. But then how quickly did your mind pivot to like, okay, what's next? In the domain of climbing, because I realize you've had two children, you've got other aspects of your life, but like where's your mind in terms of where you wanna take your life and your climbing?

是啊。一方面要设定大目标，比如你们坚持的那些。但我觉得这更像是持续设定小目标的结果。我基本永远有个待办清单：明天做什么？今天做什么？

Yeah. On the one hand, set big goals, guess, you know, something like y'all kept. The thing is I would actually say that's more of the outgrowth of setting consistent little goals, like all the time. Like I basically always have a running to do list of like, what am I doing tomorrow? What am I doing today?

我这周打算做什么？这也延伸到了攀岩上，比如，我能做哪些小事？比如，这周我能完成哪些小目标？要知道，我的攀岩日记可以追溯到2005或2006年左右。基本上我爬过的每条路线都有记录，包括难度、用时等等。

What am I trying to do this week? And that extends to climbing as well with like, what are all the little things I can be doing? Like, what are the little things I can tick this week? Know, have, my climbing journal goes back to 2005 or '6 or something. So basically everything I've ever climbed is is logged with, you know, difficulty in times and whatever.

所以我作为攀岩者一直在尝试完成新目标，比如尝试以前没爬过的路线。其实，昨天我的攀岩日就是个很好的例子。昨天我和妻子送大女儿上学后，去了悬崖，进行了一天的运动攀岩，回家路上接女儿。这样完美的一天能让一切安排得当。但这个季节由于旅行、工作和生活原因，我可能不会经常去那个悬崖了。

And so I'm constantly trying to tick things as a climber, you know, just like to do new climbs that I haven't done before. And so, I mean, I think, like, actually, my day of climbing yesterday could be a good example of this. So yesterday, my wife and I dropped off our older daughter at school, went to the cliff, did a day of sport climbing, and then picked up our daughter on the way home. It's like a perfect day like that where you can kinda, like, make it all work. And I'm not gonna be able to go to that cliff very often this season just because of travel and work and and life, basically.

所以我不想在那里设定大项目，因为根本没时间完成。我在合理设定目标，比如明知只有三天时间却想完成需要一两个月才能实现的事就没意义。那天我的目标是尝试一个特别的路线组合，虽然不难，但对我而言是新鲜有趣的尝试。

So I don't wanna have any big project there because I just won't have time to do it. You know, I'm trying to set my goals appropriately where I'm like, oh, there's no point in trying to do something that would take me a month or two to achieve if I only have three days. And so I had a goal for that day of trying to do this very particular little combination of routes that I hadn't done before. It's just something new, something interesting. It's not that hard.

但到了那里才发现条件极差——停车时气温高达86华氏度（约30摄氏度）。就像要在酷热中训练，而且还有季风般的潮湿。我们到达岩壁时，环境简直令人作呕。

But then we got there, and it was it was, like, the worst condition. It was, like, 86 degrees when we parked the car. And so, you know, it's like you're trying to work out in, like, horrendously hot. And it was also, like, kind of monsoon y, so it was very humid. So we got to the wall, it's, like, disgusting.

我当时想：就当是训练日吧，无所谓了。于是尝试了这个新路线组合，但最终在岩壁最顶端功亏一篑。

And I was kinda like, well, you know, it's a training day. Like, whatever. And so I tried to do this new combination of roots. Ultimately, I failed on. I felt the very freaking top of the wall.

我当时状态完全不行，就没完成。可能周一还有机会回去，希望到时一定能搞定。不过你知道，这目标其实很小，算不上什么前沿大事，甚至一点都不酷。

I was, like, so maxed and didn't do it. I'll probably get a chance to go back on Monday and hope and I'll for sure do it then. But, you know, it's like a very small goal. Like, this isn't cutting edge, like big. This isn't this isn't even cool at all.

我朋友根本不会在意，他们可能觉得这很蠢。但对我而言，这能让我在攀岩那天全力以赴。我觉得大目标正是由这些小事累积而成的。如果日复一日坚持做些新的、不同的、更有难度的事——只要是当天合适的挑战。

Like, my friends won't even care. Like, they'll think it's stupid. But it's nice for me to have a reason for me to try my hardest for that particular day of climbing. And I think that the big goals come as a result of all those little things. You know, like if day by day you're constantly doing something that's a little bit new, little bit different, a little bit harder, you know, whatever seems like the appropriate challenge for that day.

回顾二十年不间断的户外攀岩经历，那些重大突破都是这些小事自然发展的结果。持续做足够多的小事，偶尔就会有大事发生。我有份待办清单记录着多年来的目标和抱负，有些年份只能完成一半。

I think that looking back at twenty years of climbing outside nonstop, that the big things have just come as a natural outgrowth of all those little things. You do, like, enough little things all the time, and then every once in a while, something big happens. And so I don't know. That's you know, but I have to do list going back, like, years of, like, goals and all these aspirations. And, you know, some years, I only do half of them.

有些年份只能完成三分之一。像自由攀登酋长岩这样的目标在清单上搁置了好几年，每年都顺延到下一年——因为到了优胜美地，看着岩壁就会觉得：算了，这完全不可能。于是又推到下一年。

Some years, I do a third of them. And then, you know, something like free selling El Cap sat on a list like that literally for years, and it kept floating to the next year to the next year because you get into Yosemite, you look at the wall, you're like, no. That's you know, you're, like, totally out of the question. And so you just, like, punt to the next year. And so yeah.

有些目标终究无法实现，有些则水到渠成。顺其自然就好，重点在于日常的小挑战。

I mean, sometimes the goals don't happen. Sometimes they do. But you kinda just have to let it play out. You know? It's more like the day to day little challenges.

我喜欢你这种实事求是的态度，你脑回路确实不一样。

I love how matter of fact you are about it. You are wired different.

你是说...

You think I mean

也不尽然。比如公开演讲这种风险后果低得多的活动，因为经验丰富，完全不会提升我的皮质醇水平或自主神经兴奋度。

Well, maybe not. I mean, because, like and this is not a a vastly less high risk, high consequence endeavor, but, like, public speaking doesn't make me it doesn't raise my level of cortisol or autonomic arousal at all because I've done so much of it. Yeah.

因为你已经千锤百炼了

Because you're super well practiced

没错。有时候感觉比预期紧张时，我知道如何平复...

too. Yeah. I would just yeah. So sometimes I'll, you know, I'll think like, oh, I'm like a little more keyed up than I wanna be and I know how to calm

其实我自己现在对公开演讲也有同感，但那是在多年练习之后。因为以前这对我来说压力非常大。

Well, myself I'm actually, feel the same way with public speaking now, but that's after years of practice. Because it used to be so stressful for me.

证明你的杏仁核确实像常人一样运作。每个人都是如此

Proof of your amygdala does work like Yeah. Everybody

没错，正是如此。所以我讨厌那些说辞，什么'你天生与众不同'。因为事实是，当年在学校里当着全班讲话简直要了我的命。

I mean, exactly. That's why I hate all this stuff. It's oh, you're just wired differently. Because I'm like, no. I know that, you know, like, yeah, public like speaking in front of a class in school was like mortifying.

但经过多年给大型团体做主题演讲后，现在我觉得完全轻松了。不过要知道，这都是后天习得的。

But now after years of doing keynote speeches to like giant groups, I'm sort of like, no. Now it's super chill. But, you know, that's all learned.

抱歉我说你与众不同。要知道当你进行自由独攀时，很多新闻节目利用这点给你做了脑部扫描——毕竟这是我的神经科学专业领域。

Yeah. Forgive me for saying you're wired different. I think that, you know, when you did free solo, there were a number of news programs that, like, took advantage of the fact they put you in a brain scanner. You know, this is my field of neuroscience. Know?

他们可能发现你的杏仁核激活方式与他人不同。但现在听你证实后，我认为这其实是领域特定的——因为你积累了无数攀登经验，熟悉各种突发状况。并非你不会恐惧，而是你不会让自己陷入真正危险的攀登处境。而公开演讲曾让你紧张，恰恰证明你的威胁感知系统和杏仁核回路完全正常。

His amygdala might not be activated the same way as other people's. But I would have thought, and I think it's the case now you you confirmed that it's really domain specific. Like you've done so much climbing, have so many reps there that you're familiar with the contingencies. And so it's not that you can't experience fear, it's that you're not placing yourself into truly fearful circumstances climbing. But the fact that public speaking was an issue means that your threat sensors and the amygdala and related circuits work perfectly fine.

说到那个fMRI扫描实验，他们给我看一堆黑白照片来测试恐惧反应。我当时就想：看照片当然不会让我害怕啊！要是他们把蛇扔进扫描仪里，或者巨型蜘蛛在我身上爬——那绝对会触发我的恐惧反应。所以显然我是会感到恐惧的。

With that particular, like, scanning an fMRI, you know, they show you a bunch of black and white pictures, and it's like whether or not that triggers the fear response. And I was like, well, obviously looking at pictures isn't gonna trigger my fear response, but I'm like, had they thrown a snake into the fMRI with me? Like that would have triggered my fear response. You know, if there were like giant spiders, like crawling over me, like that would probably would too. And so I was like, no, obviously I feel fear.

只不过我对黑白照片无感罢了。对吧？

Just I'm just not afraid of black and white photos. Right. I was like

他们用的就是那些？比如愤怒面孔之类的表情图？

That's what they used? Like angry faces and that kind of the faces.

连表情都不是，就是随机物品。比如枪、插座之类，有些是中性的，有些是...

It wasn't even faces. It was like random stuff. Like, I know, like a gun and then like a light socket, you know, some things that are like neutral, some things that

我本该设计这个实验的。我的实验室曾使用

are I should have designed the experiment. My lab used

当时采用的是标准化流程，

to work It on was a standardized thing,

使用了VR技术。我就是这样认识了我们的共同朋友迈克尔·穆勒。他带他去了瓜达卢佩。我们进行了两次。所以我们在2016和2017年去那里做笼式潜水，与大白鲨共游并拍摄VR素材。

used VR. That's how I met Michael Mueller, our friend in common. He took him down to Guadalupe. We did two times. So we went down there twenty sixteen and 2017 doing cage exit diving with great whites filming with to get the VR.

实话告诉你，现实中的体验比任何虚拟场景都恐怖得多。

And I'll tell you in in real life, it's a hell of lot scarier than it is ever.

完全能想象VR里的感受。

Totally been in VR.

但说到在次要环节而非主要环节丧命——笼外潜水反而安全得多。我在笼子里遭遇过供气故障。当时独自靠着呼吸管供气系统，那比在笼外面对鲨鱼可怕多了。因为在笼外你有水肺装备，至少还能控制局面，比如紧急上浮。

But along the lines of, you know, dying when you're doing the other thing, not the the main thing, the cage exit part ended up being a lot safer. I had an air failure while in the cage. I was on that hookah line and I was alone in the cage when it happened. And I'll tell you that was a lot more terrifying than being out of the cage with the sharks. Because when you're out of the cage, you're on scuba, you have some degree of control over, you know, you can shoot for the surface.

但当你在笼中突然断气，孤立无援，被铁笼禁锢又惊恐万分时——那就真的完蛋了（双关语非故意）。是的，彻底完蛋。这印证了：当人们被显性危险震慑时，往往会忽略那些看似琐碎但近在咫尺的真实威胁。

When you're in the cage and you run out of air and you're alone And you're caged and terrified. And you're hosed, no pun intended. You're not Yeah, hosed yeah. So, you know, it speaks to this thing that like when there's this big scary thing and you're really locked in, you often miss the more trivial seeming, but real danger that's close-up.

我认为攀登运动的核心价值之一，就是它迫使你持续思考风险管控。作为攀登者，我自认擅长评估实际风险——真正的危险往往不是众人瞩目的那个。

Well, this is, I think one of the thing, one of the real values of climbing is I think that as a climber, you spend all your time thinking about risk and managing risk and mitigating risk and all those kinds of things. And so I think that, I don't wanna like toot my own horn too much, but I do feel good at evaluating risks like that. Like what is the actual dangerous thing? Like what's sketchy about the situation? And it just often isn't the thing that people are looking at.

就像我之前说的，外行看无保护独攀视频总觉得危险，但真正的挑战点通常不在他们关注的视觉焦点上。

And that's what I was talking about earlier with, like, people watching video free soloing or whatever else. They're like, that's sketchy. I'm like, well, know, might be in some ways, but probably not for all the reasons that you're thinking. You know what I mean? Like, the the obvious visual thing is probably not the the the big challenge.

虽然听起来像陈词滥调——但做热爱之事很重要。如今我年岁渐长，最担心的反而不是日常致命风险，而是耗在厌恶的工作中。某天惊醒时，逝去的活力与时光再也无法追回。

And it sounds a little cliche, but you're doing what you love. You know, it's interesting. I think one of the biggest risks that I think about now as I get older is the non daily lethal risk of, you know, grinding it out in a job you don't like. And then, you know, one day you wake up and you're like, wow, there's no time machine. Like, can't go back and get that vitality and that time.

我一直在观察。是的。这就是为什么我认为‘做你所爱’这个观念真的很重要。无论你是必须住在货车里无所事事，还是能够去上学，但关键在于做那些你非常非常热爱的事情。

Watched I've been doing. Yeah. And that's where I think this idea of, you know, doing what you love really counts. Whether or not you have to live in a van and do nothing else or whether or you can also go to school, you know, but doing doing something that you love very, very much.

无论如何，你终将死去。

Either way, you're gonna die.

无论如何，你

Either way, you're

会死去。与其在遗憾中离世，不如在离世前做许多让你真正兴奋的事情。完全同意。实际上，正是这种心态塑造了我的整个攀岩历程。我父亲在我19岁时因心脏病突发去世，年仅55岁，当时他正在机场奔跑。对于一个青少年来说，这留下了深刻印象——生命可能随时终结。

gonna And you may as well die having done a lot of things you're really excited about than die regretting all the things you didn't do. Totally. I mean, I I think that that actually that exact mindset really helped inform my whole climbing journey in way. It's like my father died when when when I was 19, and he died of a heart attack unexpectedly, just free thing running through an airport at age 55. And, you know, and I think for a young for a teenager, that makes an impression where you're sort of like, oh, like, this could end at any moment.

事实上，我的两位祖父也几乎在同一时期去世。对于一个易受影响的青少年来说，这让人意识到：所有人都会死。关键是在离世前完成你想做的事。我父亲是社区学院的语文教授，过着表面安稳的生活，相对静态。

And actually, in both my grandfathers had just died, like, at roughly the same time. So I think for an impressionable, teen, you're sort of like, oh, everybody dies. Like, do you get to do all the things that you wanna do before you go? And I think my father, my father was a community college professor, taught language. You know, he ostensibly lived a risk free life, you know, like relatively sedentary.

虽然他游历甚广，但从风险角度看，人们会认为‘他是个教授，生活安稳’。然而他依然早逝，很可能还有许多未竟之事。

I mean, he he traveled widely. Like, he he was great. But but by any risk perception thing, he'd be like, oh, he's a professor. Like, he's he's he's fine. And yet he still died young and probably would have preferred to do a lot of other things before he went.

这提醒我们：必须抓紧时间实现所有想做的事。

I'm sort of like, you know, it's just a reminder that you gotta you gotta do all those things.

是的。我想谈谈你对死亡、时间和生命弧线的哲学观——你已经开始了这个话题。我注意到我那些早婚育的男性朋友，大多都有父亲早逝的经历，因此对生命有限性异常敏感。史蒂夫·乔布斯也讨论过这点。

Yeah. I want to talk to you about your philosophy on death and and time and kind of life arc and and you've already started. So thank you for that because I would say most of my friends who started families young are people who These are male friends whose dad died young. And so they had this very keen sense of the finite duration of life. And, you know, Steve Jobs talked about this.

他本人早逝，却似乎预知自己寿命不长，因此争分夺秒。作为被收养者，他甚至可能不知道亲生父母的寿命。除非意外，我们其实无法预知死期。

So like, know, very and he died young. He seemed to have some sense of how long he was gonna live and really wanted to pack things in. And I don't know why that was. He was adopted, so I don't know if he even knew how long his parents lived, etcetera. But barring accident or injury, you know, we don't really know when we're gonna die.

但有时我们会通过亲属寿命产生预感。记得有段时期，虽然知道终有一死，却总感觉时间无限。而如今每过一年，我都更强烈地感受到：生命的围墙正在...

But sometimes I think we get the sense based on relatives. And, you know, I can remember a time in my life when I of course, I knew I was gonna die, but I lived in a way that I just felt I like I had all the time in the world despite pursuing things. And I think with each passing year, I'm like, oh, wow, like the walls

你就像，事情正在逐渐平息。

You're like, it's winding down.

是啊，我们得让节目继续推进。我已经做了想做的事，但有趣的是，父母的离世确实会深刻影响你对生命终点的认知。你会意识到今天只是通向终点的一段弧线。我们虽然明白这个道理，却很少真正活在这种觉悟中。

Yeah. We gotta get the show on the road. And I've done things I wanted to do, but it's interesting that, you know, it does seem that like having a parent die has a profound impact on where you set that horizon. You realize like today is part of an arc that has an end point. And we know that, but we often don't live into that realization.

没错，我完全同意。你说我们都知道这个道理，但我觉得我们讨论得远远不够。明白我的意思吗？大多数人活得太漫无目的，因为没人愿意谈论死亡，没人想讨论这种事的后果——人们觉得这太阴暗或不吉利。

Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. I mean, and you say we know that, but I actually think that we don't talk about that enough. You know what I mean? I think most people live with a little too much open end because nobody wants to talk about death. Nobody wants to talk about, you know, like the consequences of like, because people think it's morbid or it's just not.

关键在于，我们他妈的都会死。问题是，临死前能为自己做的事感到骄傲吗？我也不知道。

The thing is, like, we're all gonna freaking die. You know? It's like, are we gonna be proud of what we did before we died? Like, I don't know. I mean, yeah.

走着瞧吧。说什么'宁愿年轻时灿烂燃烧'之类的确实老套，但某种程度上，我觉得应该找个折中点——努力尝试做让自己骄傲的事。反正横竖都难逃一死。

We'll see. It's, like, kinda cliche to be like, oh, better to die young and, you know, burn brightly and all that kind of But, you know, to some extent, think there's I think there's a middle ground where you're like, it's better to try hard and and do things that you're proud of. And, you know, either way, you're gonna die.

我同意。27岁现象很有意思，那么多摇滚音乐人都在这个年纪去世，这算是他们的青年危机吧。

I agree. I mean, I think there is something interesting to this 27 effect. Know, so many, like, rock and roll musicians die at 27. It's their quarter life crisis. Yeah.

青年危机。我还记得那种青年危机。

Quarter life crisis. I remember the quarter life crisis.

你没听说过青年危机吗？我朋友们都经历过。

You never heard of quarter life like, my friends have gone through quarter life crisis.

真的吗？大概什么时候会发生？

Oh, really? Yeah. When and that when does that happen?

大概25岁左右，或者27岁吧。

Well, like '25, you know, or '27.

有意思。不，我只是太专注于成为神经科学家了，以至于25岁时除了这个我不知道还能做什么。我觉得自己当时完全沉浸其中，但我一直都有点执着。你是不是也总是对喜欢的事物特别投入？

Interesting. No. I was just so focused on becoming a neuroscientist that I didn't know what else I would do besides that at 25. I think I was just so locked in, but I've always been a little bit obsessive. Have you always been a little bit like whatever you're into, you're into?

我想应该是攀岩吧。

I guess it's been climbing.

对，对，没错。很幸运10岁就接触攀岩了。所以这是我长久以来一直热爱的事情。

Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Was just lucky to get into climbing when was 10. So this is something that I've just been into forever.

那你小时候玩乐高吗？

So did you play Legos as a kid or

玩啊。我对乐高简直痴迷。

do Yeah. I was psycho about my Legos.

你对乐高很痴迷？

You were psycho about Legos?

是啊，痴迷到房间里没有床，因为整个地板都铺满了乐高。基本上我睡在角落，周围全是乐高。

Yeah. Yeah. Psycho. Like I didn't have a bed in my room because I had Legos covered across the whole floor. Basically, I slept in a corner and I just had Legos all over.

超棒的。虽然有点疯狂。

Awesome. It's kinda psycho.

你在孩子身上看到这种特质了吗？

Do you see some of this in in your kids?

还没那么明显，他们还小，所以很难说。不过是啊，我们走着瞧吧。我觉得这归根结底是性格使然。

Not quite that yet, but they're pretty young, so it's hard to tell. But yeah. We'll we'll see. We'll see. I kinda think, you know, it's all about having personality.

比如说，做一件事。把它做好。要对事物充满热情。我是说，地球上有这么多人，他们都在做不同的事。你完全可以成为那个把某件特定事情做到极致的人。

Like, do a thing. Do it well. Like, get excited about things. I mean, there's just so many people on earth and they all do different things. Like, you may as well be the person to do that one particular thing and just, like, really do it.

不，我同意。这就是精髓所在。我是说，根据我的个人经历，我曾以为自己肯定会投身滑板运动。我很多朋友都成了职业滑板选手。

No. I agree. That's the juice. I mean, mean, I think for some of us, like, I just know from my own life experience, I like I thought I was certainly gonna just get into skateboarding. Many of my friends became professional skateboarders.

他们要么技术精湛，要么从事相关行业。而早期我经常受伤，意识到自己并不擅长这个。后来当我真正投入学术和学习时，我才发现这才是属于我的领域。我热爱它，最终意外转向了现在的事业。

Got really good at or worked in the industry. And early on, I was getting hurt and I realized I'm not very good at this. And then when I finally plugged into academics and learning, I was like, this is the thing. And I loved it. And it and then eventually, pivoted to this thing, which I didn't anticipate.

但我确实认为全身心投入某件事...嗯...能形成一个美妙的反馈循环，让人感受到生命的活力。

But I do think that going all in on something Mhmm. Is a it provides a really wonderful feedback loop that one can you feel it makes you feel alive.

是啊。就像，专注做一件事。

Yeah. You're, like, doing a thing.

尤其当它很困难的时候。没错，尤其困难时。

Especially when it's hard. Yeah. Especially when it's hard.

我这辈子基本上都全身心投入攀岩。直到现在，我还是热爱去攀岩。你知道吗？我觉得养育孩子的终极目标就是帮他们找到真正热爱的事物，让他们能够全心投入、为之奋斗的激情所在。所以我们会让孩子体验足够多的事物，直到他们找到每天唤醒自己的那个动力。

I've literally spent my whole life basically, like, all in on climbing. And and I'm still I just I just love going rock climbing. You know? It's like, I mean, I think that's really the the goal of parenting is to help your kid find something that they're that psyched about, like something that they can commit to and something that will drive them, something they're passionate about. And so, you know, I mean, we'll see with with our kids, but it's like the idea is just to let them experience enough things that they can find whatever they whatever gets them out of bed every day.

他们确实处在适合发展的环境里。你提到攀岩进了奥运会。我见过有些运动里父母比孩子更痴迷，结果孩子反而 burnout（倦怠）了。比如我读过阿加西的自传《公开赛》。

They certainly are in the right environment to flourish with it. You mentioned that climbing is in the Olympics. I could see and I've observed in other sports where the parents are kind of more obsessive than the kid, and then the kid burns out on it. If you I read Andre Agassi's book Open. Yeah.

对。那就是个被父亲逼迫从事自己不喜欢运动的典型故事。

Yeah. That's like a story of his dad pushing him to play a game he did not wanna play.

没错。那可能是最棒的体育回忆录了。真是本了不起的书。

Yeah. That that's maybe the best sports memoir ever. That's like that's a great that's a great book.

是啊，很棒的书。他父亲曾是个拳击手，基本上是用拳击的方式训练他打网球。

Yeah. Great book. Yeah. His dad was like a boxer and basically trained him in tennis like a boxer.

嗯。

Yeah.

对，所以这有点像那种温和的方式，我觉得孩子们自己知道，我是说，你某种程度上让他们自由探索。

Yeah. So it's sort of like the light handed approach of like, I think kids know, I think, I mean, you kind let them forage.

不，我们肯定采取的是温和方式。孩子们显然会知道怎么攀岩，因为这是我们常做的事。但目前为止我们只是去徒步，没有强迫他们攀岩。

No. We're taking the light handed approach for sure. I mean, our kids will obviously know how to climb because that's what we do all the time. But so far, we just go hiking. Like, we haven't forced them to climb.

我们在家里弄了个小型家庭健身房，像个攀岩车库。女孩们可以随时在墙上玩，但绝对没有任何压力要求她们必须做什么。

We have a little bit of a home gym at at home, like a little climbing garage. And so the girls can, you know, play on the wall whenever they want to, but there's certainly never any pressure to do anything.

我读到——如果我说错了请纠正——你大学时有几位家人去世。那时你真正开始投入更多时间攀岩，网上有资料说你在印第安岩石攀爬，这让我很感兴趣，因为我在伯克利读研究生，并在那里住了很久。

I read, and please correct me if this is inaccurate, but that it was during college that you had some family members pass away. And when you really leaned into just climbing more, I think it's somewhere on the Internet that you were climbing out an Indian rock, which is interesting to me because I went to graduate school in Berkeley and lived in Berkeley for a long time.

你去了加州大学？

You went to Cal?

我在加州大学读了硕士。

I went to Cal for my master's.

哦，好的。

Oh, yeah. Okay.

后来我在斯坦福做博士后时也住在伯克利。我太爱伯克利了。

And then I lived in Berkeley even when I was a postdoc at Stanford. I love Berkeley.