你的思维如何构建及如何塑造它们 | 詹妮弗·格罗博士

确实存在担忧，年轻人比老一辈在相同年龄时更早步入听力损失的轨迹。

There's certainly concerns that young people are farther along on that trajectory to hearing loss than people from older generations were at a comparable age.

但仅仅因为，你知道，从早到晚戴着耳塞，音量调得足够大以屏蔽周围声音，你知道，如果你在...

But just because there's you know, the earbuds are in from morning to night and volume turned up loud enough to block out surrounding sound, you know, if you're in

嗯。

a Mhmm.

一个嘈杂的环境。

A loud environment.

我建议人们考虑使用降噪耳机，并且不要把音量调得太大。

I would encourage people to give some consideration to noise canceling headphones and to not having the volume be turned up too loud.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我想谈谈通过耳机听音乐和在房间里听音乐的不同体验。

I'd like to talk about the experience of listening to something, music, let's say, through headphones versus in the room.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们平时不太会想到这点，但这完全是两种不同的体验。

We don't think about it too often, but it's a totally different experience.

一种情况下，声音是在你脑海中响起的。

In one case, you're hearing the sound in your head.

是的，没错。

Yeah, right.

或者比较一下用手机扬声器和戴耳机听的区别。

Or even listen, like your phone on speaker versus wearing earphones.

对。

Right.

人声或音乐是在你脑海中，而不是在房间里。

The person's voice or the music is in your head as opposed to in the room.

没错。

Right.

一旦你意识到这种差异，我就再也无法回到从前了。

And once you think about this difference, I simply can't go back.

就像个

It's like a

你喜欢完整的实体音箱吗？

You like the full actual speakers?

你喜欢我现在在房间里听音乐的方式吗？

Do you like now I try to listen to music in the room.

我觉得这样对我来说体验更好。

I find that to be a better experience for me.

但当我用耳机听东西时，现在感觉声音像是从脑袋里发出来的，有点奇怪。

But when I hear things with headphones, I now feel like, oh, like, the sound is coming from inside my head, and it's a little weird.

不喜欢这样

Don't like it

是啊。

so Yeah.

对。

Right.

确实可以让耳机发出的声音听起来像是来自外部。

It is possible to make sound that is coming from headphones sound like it is coming from outside.

但要实现这点，必须同时运用这三种声音定位线索。

But to do that, you have to use all three of these sound localization cues.

需要确保双耳间有合适的时间差和音量差，并利用耳朵的频率滤波特性。

Things have to be you know, to have an appropriate timing difference, an appropriate level difference across the two ears, and to use the frequency filtering properties of the ear.

由于每个人的耳朵结构略有不同，最后一步特别困难。

And since everybody's ears are a little bit different, that last step is really hard.

但确实有三维音效存在。

But there is three d sound.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

就像，我们认为三维视觉对人来说很容易理解。

Like, we think about, like, three-dimensional vision is simple for people to think about.

只要他们有视力，你就能明白，你会预期离你近的物体看起来比远处的大，这是我们学到的

As long as they're sighted, you understand that, you know, you expect things that are closer to you to be larger than if they were far away, that we learn this

我没想到视觉中有这么多判断距离的奇妙线索，对吧？

I without got thinking so many wonderful cues to distance in vision, right?

远处的物体比近处的更难分辨细节。

Things in the distance are harder to resolve as opposed to things up close, which you can see all the detail.

有所有这些线索，对吧，我们可以讨论。

There are all these cues, right, that we could talk about.

但既然我们在讨论听觉，我们听到的特定音量的声音，通常是通过视觉来判断它们来自近处还是远处的物体。

But since we're talking about hearing, the sounds that we hear at a given level, know are coming from objects that are actually close or far away, usually based on what we see.

对吧？

Right?

那么什么是三维声音？

So what is three d sound?

我如何分辨一个声音是直接在我面前还是远处，在闭着眼睛的情况下？

How do I know the difference between a sound that's right in front of my face versus far away with my eyes closed?

我怎么知道？

How do I know?

这是大脑中我们尚未完全理解的计算过程。

This is a computational process in the brain that we don't fully understand.

值得思考的是，有哪些可用的信息片段可以利用？

And it's worth thinking about what are what are the available pieces of information that you can use?

声音比光线更容易弯曲。

Sound is much more bendy than light is.

弯曲的。

Bendy.

弯曲的。

Bendy.

就是，它会弯曲。

Like, it bends.

它能绕过物体。

It goes things.

可以绕过物体传播，而光线基本是直线传播的。

Around things, whereas light is just kind of like a straight straight shot.

明白吗？

You know?

你无法像利用视觉信息那样利用声音信息来判断深度。

You don't have the opportunity to use the same kind of information for sound depth that you do for vision.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

尽管你有两只耳朵，但无法形成图像并检查图像是否对齐——这就是立体视觉的原理。

Even though you have two ears, you can't form an image and check to see whether or not the images line up, which is what stereo vision is.

声音没有遮挡线索，也就是说一个物体在前方不会阻挡你对后方物体的感知。

You don't have occlusion cues, that is to say, one thing being in front of the other blocks your your ability to see the thing that's behind.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

所以声音可以绕过物体传播。

So, you know, the sound can go around objects.

因此我们可以利用几种不同的线索。

So there's a few different cues that we can use.

其中一种就是声音的响度。

One is simply how loud is the sound.

嗯。

Mhmm.

距离越远的东西听起来越安静。

Things that are farther away are gonna sound quieter.

但你必须知道外界的声音音量，才能判断那声音是安静还是响亮。

But you have to know what the sound volume was out there in the world in order to interpret whether or not that is quiet or loud.

我们以雷声为例，因为响亮的雷声预示着可能击中你的闪电。

Let's use thunder as an example, because thunder sounding very loud predicts lightning that might hit you.

如果你了解雷声和闪电，远处传来的雷声预示着你被闪电击中的概率较低。

Thunder that sounds way off in the distance, if you have an understanding of thunder and lightning, predicts a lower probability of you getting hit by lightning.

我最近就有这样的经历。

I had this experience recently.

我在德克萨斯州奥斯汀突然遭遇了一场雷暴，大雨倾盆而下。

I got caught in a sudden lightning storm, thunder lightning storm in Austin, Texas, and it was coming down in sheets.

然后雷声越来越响，你会觉得，哇。

And then the thunder gets louder and louder, and you're like, wow.

闪电越来越亮，你会想我可能会被电到。

The And lightning gets brighter and brighter, and you think I could get electrocuted.

这似乎是个低概率事件。

And it seems like a low probability event.

对。

Right.

根据你成长的地方，你可能从小就学过一些基本知识，比如什么时候该找地方躲避。

Depending on where you grew up, you might have learned as a child, like some basics of how to tell, like when it's a good idea to get to shelter.

举个例子，我小时候被教导要数一千一、两千一之类的。

So, for example, I was taught growing up, you count one one thousand, two one thousand, whatever.

只要你能数到大约五秒，你大概就没事。

As long as you can count to like five seconds, you're probably okay.

但一旦达到那个程度，你应该，你知道的，最好进屋去。

But once you're getting to that level, you should, you know, maybe go inside.

那里。

There.

大家好好体会这句话，这可是从小和他们一起长大的人说的。

Take that one in, folks, from somebody who grew up with them.

你看到闪电一闪而过。

You see the flash of lightning.

一千零一，一千零二，一千零三，一千零四，一千零五。

One one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand, four one thousand, five one thousand.

如果在那之后才听到雷声，你就没事。

And if it takes longer than that before you hear the thunder, you're okay.

但到那时，我就会进屋了。

But at that point, I would go inside.

你可能救了几条人命。

You may have saved some lives.

是啊。

Yeah.

在加州长大的我们根本没学过这些。

Growing up in California, we didn't learn anything about it.

你们没接触过这个，城市里长大的人也不会懂。

You didn't get that, and people who grew up in cities wouldn't have gotten this.

我觉得在城市里，其实很难看清闪电和雷声之间的联系。

I think in cities, it's actually very hard to see the connection between the light lightning and the thunder.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但我在佛蒙特州的乡下长大，这现象非常明显。

But I grew up in rural Vermont, and it was like very obvious.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我在旧金山湾区长大，经历过很多次地震。

I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area, and I've been through so many earthquakes.

对于那些从未经历过大地震的人来说，他们不知道的一点是地震的声音极其巨大。

And one of the things that people don't realize if they've never been in a major earthquake is that it's extremely loud.

地震始于声音，而非震动。

It starts with sound, not shaking.

别——当然。

Don't- Sure.

人们总是谈论加州地震，比如89年地震时高速公路像煎饼一样坍塌，海湾大桥甚至有一段直接坠落。

So this is people always saying the California earthquakes and with the 89 Quake Freeway the pancaked, the Bay Bridge actually, a segment fell out.

人们都忘了这事发生在世界大赛期间。

People forget this, during the world series.

如果现在发生这种事，伤亡会非常惨重，但那时候湾区还没这么繁忙。

If that happened now, there would be so many casualties, but it was a lot less busy in the Bay Area back then.

地震发生时最先出现的现象是声音，就像有火车要冲进房间一样。

The first thing that happens in an earthquake is it sounds like a train is about to come through the room.

是的，没错。

Yeah, sure.

随后不久震动就开始了。

And then the shaking starts shortly thereafter.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

但声音总是最先出现的。

But the sound always comes first.

我总会告诉那些害怕地震的人这个现象。

I always tell people this when they're afraid of earthquakes.

你会先听到它，然后才感觉到它。

You'll hear it before you'll feel it.

在你看到它之前。

Before you see it.

如果听起来像有火车要穿过房间，那可能即将发生地震。

If it sounds like a train is gonna come through the room, you're probably about to have an earthquake.

没错。

Right.

我认为大象利用声音进行远距离交流。

I think elephants use sound to communicate over long distances.

所以

So

真酷。

That's cool.

它们会跺脚吗？

They stomp?

是的。

Yeah.

我想是的。

I think so.

它们能听到的地方。

Where they can hear yeah.

它们能听到声音。

They can hear things.

而且我认为它们的脚上有传感器，能感知这些我们称之为声音的振动。

And I think they have sensors in their feet that can pick up these vibrations that we might call sound.

哦，那真酷。

Oh, that's cool.

是啊。

Yeah.

就像《伴我同行》里的那个场景。

That's like that scene in Stand By Me.

对。

Yeah.

就是他们过桥时穿越铁轨那段。

Where they're crossing the train tracks on a bridge.

没错。

Yeah.

所有孩子都在慢慢往前走。

And all the kids are just kinda moving along.

然后戈迪——他可以说是那群孩子里最聪明的一个。

And then Gordy, who's the arguably one of the smarter in the bunch.

嗯。

Yeah.

他俯身按住铁轨，在听到汽笛声前就感觉到了震动。

He's reaching down and holding the tracks and feels the track before he hears the the Yep.

汽笛声。

The Yep.

接着浓烟从拐角处涌来。

The horn, and then, of course, the smoke rounds the corner.

火车转过弯道。

Train rounds the corner.

有意思。

Interesting.

真有趣。

Interesting.

是的。

Yeah.

至于大象，我不太确定。

And with the elephants, I'm not sure.

我想可能不是脚部的传感器，而是通过脚部到耳朵的骨传导，这才是声音被接收的方式。

I think maybe it's not sensors in the feet, but bone conduction from the feet to the ear, and that's where being picked up.

好的。

Okay.

所以你的问题是，如果我回到你的问题，是关于距离的，我们怎么知道声音是从多远传来的？

So your question was, if I can go back to your question, it was about distance and how do we know how far away a sound is coming from?

因此，响度线索需要你了解声源处原始刺激的响度。

So the the loudness cue requires you to know something about how loud the original stimulus at the source is.

雷声就是个很好的例子，因为我们有相当多的雷声经验，所以可以用它的响度作为很好的线索。

And so thunder's a wonderful example of this because we do have quite a bit of experience with thunder, so we can kinda use how loud it is as a good cue.

而且这也很有效，因为我们讨论的是非常远的距离。

And it also works great because we're talking about really long distances.

对吧？

Right?

还有一个很酷的线索，你我可能正在使用，那就是这个房间里的声音在所有不同表面上反射。

There's another pretty cool cue that you and I are probably using right now, and that is that the sound in this room is bouncing off of all the different surfaces.

所以声音的最短路径副本直接从你的嘴传到我的耳朵。

So the shortest path copy of the sound is coming straight from your mouth to my ears.

但除此之外，还有一个副本在我们之间的桌子上反射，路径更长，所以会有轻微延迟。

But in addition, there's a copy that's bouncing off of the table that's between us that will have a has a longer path length, so it'll be slightly delayed.

还会有另一个副本，你知道的，碰到天花板然后传到我的耳朵。

There'll be another copy that's, you know, hitting the ceiling and and coming down to my ears.

哦，这真奇怪。

Oh, this is weird.

这将会产生更长的延迟。

And that is gonna have a even longer delay.

我完全没有意识到这一点，但我的大脑可能正在利用微小的差异和这些差异的模式来判断，比如你离我大约七英尺远。

I'm completely unaware of this, but my brain is probably using the slight differences and the kind of pattern of slight differences to figure out, you know, that you're about seven feet away from me.

如果我们离得更近，那条直线路径的副本和从桌子反弹的副本之间的差异会比现在更大，因为在这个角度和这种几何形状下，差异其实并不大。

If we were closer to each other, the difference between that straight path copy and the copy bouncing off of the table would be greater than it is right now because at at this angle with this, you know, geometry, there's really not that much difference.

所以反弹的副本和直线路径的副本非常相似。

So the bounced off copy and the straight path copier are pretty similar.

我从未想过这个问题。

I never thought about this.

很不可思议，对吧？

It's incredible, right?

这就是视觉如此不同的一个方面。

This is a way that vision is so different.

是啊。

Yeah.

我是从视觉科学领域出身的，

I came up through vision science Yeah,

我也是。

so did I.

没错，我是说，有些波长的光可以穿过我们的身体，比如长波长的光。

Right, I mean, are certain wavelengths of light that can pass through our body, like long wavelength light.

这是相对较新的发现。

That's relatively new findings.

我觉得这非常有趣，而且事实证明对我们的健康非常有益，比如线粒体健康等等。

Think it's really interesting, and it's very healthy for us, turns out, mitochondrial health, etcetera.

但一般来说，我们不太习惯思考光和光的波长穿透物体，除非它们是半透明或透明的，比如窗户。

But in general, we're not used to thinking about light and wavelengths of light going through things, unless they're translucent or transparent, like a window.

声音不断地从所有物体表面反射。

Sound is constantly bouncing off everything.

我们始终处在一个声音的镜厅之中。

We're in a hall of mirrors for sound all the time.

但在这场对话中，你感知我，我感知你，都如同一个连贯的声音。

But you experience me, and I experience you during this conversation as one coherent sound.

尽管我们生理上能察觉两耳间半毫秒的时间差，但我的声音从桌面、墙壁、天花板反射后到达你耳朵的时间差要大得多，而你却能将其整合。

Even though we are biologically poised to detect half a millisecond differences in the arrival time of the two ears, They're much greater differences in the arrival time of my voice bouncing off the table versus the walls versus the ceiling versus direct path, but you integrate them.

我不会觉得你把同一句话重复了五遍。

And I don't hear you as saying the same thing five different times.

它是一个完整的整体。

It's one integrated whole.

闭上眼睛也不会改变这一点。

And closing one's eyes doesn't change that.

如果我闭上眼睛听你说话，仍能感知直达声路径。

If I close my eyes and you speak, can register to the direct path.

我推断你就在我正前方。

I infer that you're right in front of me.

当然，我知道这点是因为一秒钟前我还睁着眼。

Of course, I know that because my eyes were open a second ago.

但你声音的所有版本——经不同表面反射后——都正传入我的耳朵。

But all the versions of your voice arriving, bouncing off the different surfaces are arriving at my ears.

这既不混乱也不刺耳。

And it's not confusing and it's not jarring.

就像如果有人过来碰我的手臂，我却同时感到后颈和膝盖也有轻微触感，那会很怪异。

Like if somebody came over and touched my arm, and I felt it on my arm, but also a little bit on the back of my neck and a little bit on my knee, that would be weird.

那确实会很奇怪。

That would be odd.

我们可以获得这些感觉。

And we can get these sensations.

例如，背部某些特定区域能让你感受到脚部一种微妙的幻触感，这是由于神经回路的组织方式所致。

There are certain places on the back, for instance, that you can feel a subtle kind of phantom touch in your foot, because of the way the neural circuits are organized.

对于疼痛，我们称之为牵涉痛。

And with pain, we talk about this as like referenced pain.

内脏器官的神经分支分布使得——这在中西医中都有体现——比如肝脏疼痛会反映在肩膀上。

For internal organs, there are branches of nerves such that, and this shows up in Eastern medicine, but also Western medicine, someone with like liver pain will register that in their shoulder.

我们觉得这很离谱。

And we think, oh, this is crazy.

不，这并不离谱。

No, it's not crazy.

实际上有神经分支支持这种牵涉痛现象，但听觉系统不会这样运作。

There's actually branches that support that referenced pain, but we don't do this with hearing.

我们会关闭所有通道直接得出结论。

We shut it all down and we just collect the We draw a conclusion.

没错。

Right.

太神奇了。

Wild.

很神奇对吧？

It's wild, isn't

？

it?

简直不可思议。

It's totally wild.

你该不会想说我们的声音正在引起周围物体的振动，只是我们检测不到吧？

Are you about to tell me that our voices are causing vibrations in the objects around us, and that we just can't detect them?

为什么我们不像大象那样？

Why are we not like the elephants?

怎么能

How can

我们——也许我们确实像大象。

we- Maybe we are like the elephants.

我不知道。

I don't know.

是否低频声音相对于我们的探测能力能传播得更远？

Is it the case that low frequency sounds can travel further with respect to our ability to detect them.

所以我不想讨论声音频率、强度以及高频与低频的问题，因为这实际上涉及声音的物理特性。

So I don't wanna get into a conversation about frequency of sound and intensity and high versus low frequency, because that's really about the physics of sound.

但是

But

最终我们通过神经系统过滤声音的物理特性。

ultimately we filter the physics of sound through our nervous system.

所以如果我想向远处的人发信号，可能会选择大低音鼓或锣。

So if I want to signal to somebody far away, I would probably want like a big bass drum or a gong.

我不会试图用口哨声传向远方。

I would not try to whistle to them far away.

或者如果我能选一个低沉的号角，我会选择低音。

Or if I could pick a horn that was a deep, like, versus like, I'd want bass.

这里涉及几个问题。

So there's a few things wrapped up here.

一是低频更容易弯曲，所以能更好地绕过障碍物。

One is that the lower frequencies bend more, bend more easily, so they can go around these objects better.

所以如果要传播很长距离，声音路径上很可能有需要绕开或越过的障碍物。

So if you're talking really long distances, the odds that there's something in the path that you want the sound to go around or go up.

另一个关键点是，我们往往先丧失对高频声音的听力，然后才是低频。

Another thing that's wrapped up here is that we tend to lose high frequency hearing before we lose low frequency hearing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因此低频声音能让更多人听见，而且相比高频声音听起来更响亮。

And so the lower frequencies are audible to more people and and are louder to people than the higher frequencies.

所以你的意思是它能绕过物体传播？

So you're saying it's because it can bend around objects?

其实我不太清楚那些负责研究这类问题的人具体做了哪些选择。

Well, I don't really know what the choices that are being made are by the people whose job it is to figure these kinds of things out.

但我相信他们肯定考虑到了接收者——也就是普通人的感知能力。

But I'm sure that there's some thought being given to the receiver, you know, the the people and what they can what they can perceive.

我们再举几个人类使用的预警系统例子。

So let's take a couple other examples of warning systems that that humans use.

燃气本身是没有特殊气味的。

The gas in a gas stove doesn't have an intrinsic odor to it.

是后来添加了气味剂。

There's an odorant that's been added.

就是那种臭鸡蛋般的硫磺味。

That rotten egg sulfur smell.

对，就是那种臭鸡蛋味。

That rotten egg yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

这种添加剂是很早以前就选定的，事实证明很有效，因为这种气味独一无二。

And so, you know, that was chosen a long time ago to be added, and, you know, it turns out to be a good thing because it doesn't doesn't really smell like anything else.

虽然不好闻，但每个人都能察觉到。

It's not pleasant, but everybody can detect it.

我不知道有什么案例表明人们无法闻到那种气味，除非他们患有全面性嗅觉丧失症，完全闻不到任何气味。

I don't know of any cases of people that can't smell that unless they have a generalized, enozymia where they can't smell anything.

交通信号灯可能算不上完全成功的设计，因为存在红绿对比，而6%的人口患有红绿色盲——从功能角度来说，并非他们看不到红色或绿色刺激，而是无法辨别某物是红色还是绿色。

Traffic lights are maybe a little bit of a less of a win because you got red versus green, and six percent of the population is red green color blind, which operationally means not that you can't see a red stimulus or a green stimulus, but that you can't tell the difference whether or not something is red or green.

是的，需要说明的是大多数红绿色盲患者都是男性，这与基因突变在基因组中的位置有关。

Yeah, I should just say that most red green color blind people tend to be males, just because of where the gene mutation is in the genome.

他们看到的景象...人们总想知道红色在他们眼中是什么样子。

They don't see, And people always wanna know what does red look like to them.

对。

Yeah.

红色和绿色在他们看来更像是橙色调，像是焦褐色或橘色。

Red and green look kind of more orangish, burnt brown, orange color.

而狗眼中的世界始终是这种色调。

And dogs see the world that way all the time.

没错。

Right.

所以如果做颜色匹配实验，据我理解红绿色盲者会把红色和绿色都映射到黄色。

So if you do a color matching experiment, my understanding is something along the lines of people with red green color blindness will map both red and green onto yellow.

并且无法区分二者。

And not be able to tell the difference.

并不是像卡通片里演的那种黑白画面。

It's not the kind of cartoon view of like, it looks black and white.

确实存在完全色盲的人，但非常罕见。

There are people who are completely monochromatic, but it's very rare.

极其罕见。

Very rare.

非常非常罕见。

Very, very rare.

还有其他更微妙的色盲形式，我们会附上相关链接供大家参考。

And there are other forms of color blindness that are more subtle and color blindness, people should, we'll put a link to this.

华盛顿大学的简·莫里·奈茨团队运营着一个出色的色彩视觉实验室。

Jane Morrie Knights up at the University of Washington have a terrific, they run a color vision lab.

她是分子生物学家，而他更偏向心理物理学家。

She's a molecular biologist, he's more of a psychophysicist.

他们那里有一些非常出色的色彩视觉测试可供人们参与。

And they have some really great color vision tests there that people can take.

许多人通过测试发现自己存在细微的色彩视觉缺陷。

And many people find that they have subtle color vision deficits.

是的，但他们并不认为自己完全色盲。

Yeah, yeah, But they don't consider themselves fully color blind.

不过全色盲患者通常能意识到自己看到的是黑白世界。

But every once in a while, monochromats usually know that they're seeing the world, they're black and white.

这个分类下的多数情况更像是异常现象，而非完全丧失红绿色辨能力。

And a lot of what is under this heading is really more an anomaly than a complete absence of an ability to distinguish red from green.

回到交通信号灯的话题。

But back to our traffic lights.

红色与绿色传达着截然不同的信息，多数地方采用垂直排列的灯组，这为信号识别提供了第二重判断依据。

So you got your red versus green signaling something very different, and most places have those lights oriented vertically, which gives you a second cue to what's what needs to be conveyed here.

不是简单的灯光切换。

Not the same light switching.

对。

Right.

不仅是灯光切换不同，还有上下位置的区分。

It's not the same light switching, and one is on top and the other's on the bottom.

当某些十字路口采用水平排列的三灯组时，问题会更突出。

It's more of a problem when in some intersections, the the set of three lights is oriented horizontally.

我们早就知道，有些方法可以改善睡眠质量。

We've known for a long time that there are things that we can do to improve our sleep.

其中包括可以服用的物质，如苏糖酸镁、茶氨酸、洋甘菊提取物和甘氨酸，以及不太为人所知的藏红花和缬草根。

And that includes things that we can take, things like magnesium threonate, theanine, chamomile extract, and glycine, along with lesser known things like saffron and valerian root.

这些都是经过临床验证的成分，能帮助你入睡、保持睡眠状态，并醒来时感觉更加神清气爽。

These are all clinically supported ingredients that can help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up feeling more refreshed.

我很高兴地告诉大家，我们的长期赞助商AG1刚刚推出了一款新产品AGZ，这是一种夜间饮品，旨在帮助你获得更好的睡眠，醒来时感觉格外精神焕发。

I'm excited to share that our longtime sponsor AG1 just created a new product called AGZ, a nightly drink designed to help you get better sleep and have you wake up feeling super refreshed.

过去几年里，我与AG1团队合作共同研发了这个全新的AGZ配方。

Over the past few years, I've worked with the team at AG1 to help create this new AGZ formula.

它以最完美的比例包含了所有最佳助眠成分，只需轻松冲泡即可饮用。

It has the best sleep supporting compounds in exactly the right ratios in one easy to drink mix.

据我所知，AGZ是市面上最全面的睡眠补充剂。

AGZ is to my knowledge, the most comprehensive sleep supplement on the market.

我通常在睡前30到60分钟服用。

I take it thirty to sixty minutes before sleep.

顺便说一句，它的味道很棒。

It's delicious by the way.

它显著提升了我的睡眠质量和深度。

And it dramatically increases both the quality and the depth of my sleep.

这既来自我个人对睡眠质量的主观感受，也基于我的睡眠追踪数据。

I know that both from my subjective experience of my sleep and because I track my sleep.

我期待大家都能尝试这款全新的AGZ配方，享受更优质的睡眠。

I'm excited for everyone to try this new AGZ formulation and to enjoy of better sleep.

如果你想试用AGZ，请访问drinkagz.com/huberman获取专属优惠。

If you'd like to try AGZ, go to drinkagz.com/huberman to get a special offer.

再次提醒，网址是drinkagz.com/huberman。

Again, that's drinkagz.com/huberman.

本期节目由Our Place赞助播出。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Our Place.

Our Place生产我最喜爱的锅具和其他厨具。

Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware.

令人惊讶的是，80%的不粘锅以及厨具、电器和无数其他厨房产品中仍含有PFAS等持久性有毒化合物。

Surprisingly toxic compounds such as PFAS or forever chemicals are still found in 80% of nonstick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products.

正如我之前在播客中讨论过的，这些如特氟龙般的PFAS持久性化学物质与激素紊乱、肠道菌群失调、生育问题等重大健康问题相关。

As I've discussed before on this podcast, these PFAS or forever chemicals like Teflon have been linked to major health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.

因此避免接触它们非常重要。

So it's very important to avoid them.

这就是我如此推崇Our Place的原因。

This is why I'm a huge fan of Our Place.

Our Place产品采用最优质材料制成，且完全不含PFAS和毒素。

Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all PFAS and toxin free.

我尤其钟爱他们的钛金属恒久锅Pro版。

I particularly love their Titanium Always Pan Pro.

这是首款零化学添加、零涂层的不粘锅。

It's the first nonstick pan made with zero chemicals and zero coating.

它采用纯钛金属打造。

Instead it uses pure titanium.

这意味着它不含任何有害的持久性化学物质，也不会随时间降解或失去不粘效果。

This means it has no harmful forever chemicals and does not degrade or lose its nonstick effect over time.

它的外观也十分精美。

It's also beautiful to look at.

我几乎每个早晨都用钛金属恒久锅Pro版煎鸡蛋。

I cook eggs in my Titanium Always Pan Pro almost every morning.

其设计能让鸡蛋完美烹制而不粘锅。

The design allows for the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan.

我也用它来烹饪汉堡和牛排，它总能给肉带来完美的焦香，而且同样重要的是，食物完全不会粘锅，清洁起来非常方便，甚至可以直接放进洗碗机。

I also cook burgers and steaks in it, it always puts a really nice sear on the meat, but again, nothing sticks to it, so it's really easy to clean and it's even dishwasher safe.

我非常喜欢它，几乎每天都在使用。

I love it and I use it constantly.

Our Place现在推出了全套钛金专业厨具系列，采用首创的钛金不粘技术。

Our Place now has a full line of titanium pro cookware that uses the first of its kind titanium nonstick technology.

如果你正在寻找无毒耐用的锅具，请访问fromourplace.com/huberman并使用优惠码Huberman。

So if you're looking for non toxic long lasting pots and pans, go to fromourplace.com/huberman and use the code Huberman.

目前Our Place正在进行年度最大促销活动。

Right now, our place is having their biggest sale of the year.

即日起至2026年1月12日，所有产品最高可享35%折扣。

You can get up to 35% off all products now through 01/12/2026.

我们提供100天无风险试用、免费送货和免费退换服务，你可以零风险体验Our Place，了解为何超过100万人选择转用Our Place厨具。

With a one hundred day risk free trial, free shipping and free returns, you can try Our Place with zero risk and you can see why more than 1,000,000 people have made the switch to Our Place Kitchenware.

再次提醒，访问ourplace.com/huberman可享受最高35%折扣。

Again, that's from ourplace.com/huberman to get up to 35% off.

所以实际上我们讨论的是——虽然我想从多感官角度更深入探讨，但主要聚焦于声音——物理空间如何塑造我们对事物的感知。

So really what we're talking about that I'd like to drill into even deeper across senses, but primarily with sound is, how space, how the physical environment shapes our perception of things.

嗯，是的。

Yeah, yeah.

鉴于我们的耳朵既能检测声频又与平衡振动相关，我对振动与声音之间的关系也非常感兴趣。

And I'm also very interested in the relationship between vibration and sound, given that our ears contain the apparatus to detect sound frequency, but also have to do with balance and vibration.

大多数人都有过这样的经历：当旁边有辆车开着震耳欲聋的低音炮时。

Most of us have had the experience of someone pulling up next to us in a car, blasting bass really loud.

哦没错。

Oh yeah.

我们的车窗就开始震动，他们的车窗也是。

And our windows start shaking and their windows Right.

我们能否先谈谈物体是如何拥有共振频率的？

Start Can we talk just about how objects have resonant frequency?

没错。

Right.

我觉得这相当有趣。

I think this is pretty interesting.

然后人们必然会想知道人类是否也有共振频率，而事实是我们确实有。

Then people will inevitably wanna know about how humans have a resonant frequency, and we do.

我相信特定频率的声音能够塑造我们的情绪状态。

I believe that certain frequencies of sound can shape our emotional state.

噢，当然。

Oh, sure.

我是说，这就是音乐的作用，对吧？

I mean, that's music, right?

举个例子。

For example.

举个例子。

For example.

它

It

只是不知为何，当我们把声音拆解成单一频率且不以音乐形式呈现时，人们就会觉得这像是玄学或神秘主义，但其实并非如此。

just, for some reason, when we break it down to one frequency and it's not packaged in music, people somehow think it's like woo or mysticism, and it's not.

我对这个很着迷，比如锣作为一种古老工具，试图调整人们的情绪状态或传递信号。

I mean, I'm fascinated by this, like gongs as an ancient tool for trying to orient people's emotional state, or signal.

就像如果我们听到某种声音，会感觉不祥。

Like if we hear, sounds ominous.

对吧？

Right?

当我们听到鸟儿的啁啾声，就知道那是鸟儿，但如果我们听到的是光——要知道，迪士尼电影里那种（虽然我很久没看迪士尼电影了）——那种高频振动的效果音。

If we hear chirping of birds, we know they're birds, but if we hear light, know, in the Disney movies that, you know, it's been long time since I've seen Disney movie, but the kind of the stuff of fluttering is high frequency.

高频运动往往伴随着高频声音。

High frequency movement tends to be high frequency sound.

那么你如何看待频率、情感与共振频率之间的关系？

So how do you think about the relationship between frequency and emotion and resonant frequency?

这个话题很宏大，但我很想听听你的看法。

I mean, it's a vast landscape, but I'd love your thoughts on this.

那我们能不能从音乐领域来讨论这个问题？

So can we we go into the music realm to talk about this?

请讲。

Please.

我觉得这对很多人来说都很直观。

I think that's intuitive for many people.

好的。

Okay.

对。

Yeah.

音乐最迷人的一点在于它是普世的，却没人真正明白它存在的意义。

So one of the things that I think is fascinating about music is that it's universal, and nobody really knows what it's for.

比如语言对我们有用这点就很明确。

Like, it's pretty clear that language is useful to us.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

它能帮助我们交换信息。

It, you know, helps us exchange information.

嗯。

Mhmm.

很明显，语言对个体和整个物种来说都是一种生存优势。

So pretty obvious that language is is a benefit, a survival benefit for individuals and for the species as a whole.

我们并不清楚音乐的作用，你知道音乐在我们的进化成功和自然选择中扮演了什么角色吗？

We don't really have as clear a view of why music, you know, what role did music play in our success in evolution, natural selection?

你知道，音乐确实是普遍存在的。

You know, music is it really is universal.

每种人类文化都有音乐。

Every human culture has it.

不同文化对旋律和和声的接受程度可能有所不同，但每种文化都有节奏。

There is some variation as to whether or not a culture embraces melody, embraces harmony, but every culture has rhythm.

没有节奏就不可能有旋律或和声。

You can't have melody or harmony without rhythm.

这完全说不通。

It doesn't make any sense.

对吧？

Right?

比如，想象一下熟悉的《生日快乐》歌，但音符的时长完全随意。

Like, imagine imagine a familiar tune like Happy Birthday, but the duration of the notes was completely arbitrary.

知道吗？

Know?

听起来会很疯狂。

Sound crazy.

那听起来会很疯狂。

It would sound crazy.

我们就认不出那是《生日快乐》了，但你可以弹得快一点。

It's it would not be recognizable to us as Happy Birthday, but you can you can play it fast.

你可以慢慢演奏。

You can play it slow.

你可以升调或降调演奏，用不同的音乐调式，我们仍能辨认出这是同一首歌。

You can play it pitch shifted up or pitch shifted down, musical terms in a different key, and we would recognize that as like a particular song.

这就是为什么我认为节奏至关重要。

So that's what I mean about rhythm being really critical.

节奏的重要性引出了下面这个有点狂野的理论。

And the criticality of rhythm offers up the following kinda wild theory.

这不是我的理论。

This is not my theory.

真希望我能说出这是谁的理论。

I wish I could quote whosever theory it is.

但该理论认为，或许节奏和音乐的存在意义，就是帮助人类协同行动，让我们发出的声音比任何个体都要响亮，从而吓退捕食者和竞争者。

But it is that perhaps what rhythm, what music and rhythm is for is to help us act in concert with one another and be louder than any of us could be by ourselves and to scare off predators and competitors.

例如想象一群鬣狗正围着一头狮子吃剩的猎物。

So for example, imagine a pack of hyenas are surrounding a kill from, you know, a lion.

狮子早已吃饱离开，现在一群瘦弱的人类想吓跑鬣狗。

The lion is long since sated and has gone away, but now a bunch of scrawny humans wanna scare off the hyenas.

如果他们集体跺脚呐喊，声势会比任何单个人的行动都要浩大。

If they go after the hyenas all stomping their feet together and shouting together, it's gonna be a lot louder than any one person could do by themselves.

嗯，我喜欢这个理论。

Well, I like this theory.

挺有意思的，对吧？

It's kinda nice, right?

稍后我会告诉你原因，请继续。

I'll tell you why in a moment, but please continue.

这种群体协同行为——当我们说'一旦掌握基础'时，我实际上是从进化尺度来想象的——任何事物的形成与延续，都必须在其发展的每个阶段提升我们的适应能力。

And then that kind of concerted working together as a group, and you could sort of see that once you had the basics of like And here I'm talking when I say once you have, I'm really imagining on an evolutionary scale that for anything to come about and endure requires that it increase our fitness at every stage of the way.

最初，你可能会感受到那种节奏感，但随后人们会对此感到满足。

So initially, you might get that rhythm thing going on, but then that would be satisfying to people.

就像如果某种突变让你们因某种原因觉得共同行动很愉悦，随之而来的是能与鬣狗争夺狮子猎物的优势，这种合作行为本身可能就会自我强化——当共同行动让人愉悦时，我们就能一起完成更多个人无法做到的事。

Like if you had a mutation that made acting together feel good for some reason, and then it would come along with this benefit of competing with the hyenas for the lion kill, and then it would kind of potentially feed on itself of like, well, even more cooperative action, feeling good together allows us to then do other things together that we can't do individually.

你见过新西兰毛利人的那种——我不知道该怎么称呼——那种吟唱和歌曲吗？

Have you ever seen the it's a song, I don't exactly know what to call it, the chanting and the song of Maori in New Zealand?

嗯。

Yeah.

他们在橄榄球赛前会进行这种仪式。

They'll do this before rugby games.

哦，对对。

Oh, right, right.

因为全黑队是世界上最好的橄榄球队之一。

Because the All Blacks are one of the best rugby teams in the world.

我有个朋友总会发一段神奇的视频给我——每当我问'你觉得新闻里那个事怎么样'之类的时候。

There's an incredible video that a friend of mine, she always sends this to me when I'll say something like, oh, what do you think of something that was on the news or something?

她就会发来——新西兰政府里有个特别案例，不知道他们用议会还是什么机构，有个例子...我就直说吧。

And she'll send, there's an incredible case of in the government in New Zealand, I think it's a, I don't know if they use parliament or what, there's an example of, okay, I'll just say it how it is.

某个白人政客宣读某项提案，可能正要投票表决。

Some white politician reads out some proclamation, and maybe that's up for a vote.

突然从这座非常庄严的政府大楼（看起来有点像我们的国会大厦）的某个角落，她开始吟唱起来。

And then all of a sudden it will start in one corner of this very majestic government building, looks sort of like our Congress, but it's And she'll start chanting.

然后所有人都睁大眼睛，一眨不眨，特别有意思。

And then it's like wide eyes, there's no blinking, very interesting.

他们跺着脚，拍着手。

And they're stomping and there's clapping.

突然间其他人也开始跟着她加入进来。

Then all of a sudden it starts, other people start joining in with her.

对。

Right.

他们聚在一起时声音真的很大。

It gets really loud when they're together.

第一，你马上就能知道几件事。

A, you know a number of things immediately.

第一，他们很愤怒。

A, they're pissed.

第二，他们不会容忍这种事。

Two, they're not gonna stand for this.

第三，他们人数众多。

Three, there are a lot of them.

第四，他们不好惹。

And four, they're not to be messed with.

他们很团结。

They're united.

他们很团结。

They're united.

是啊。

Yeah.

老实说，我得找人查了这个。

Admittedly, I had to have someone look this up.

这叫哈卡战舞。

It's called Haka.

它令人惊叹，因为你立刻就能明白这些人的感受。

And it's incredible because you immediately understand how these people feel.

这是一种...不，我们不会采取那种立场，至少在这个政府案例的背景下不会。

And it's a, no, we're not gonna take that kind of stance, at least in the context of this government example.

在

In

就橄榄球赛前仪式而言，这确实是一种活力的展示，毕竟我们是灵长类动物。

terms of pre rugby match, it's really a display of vigor and we are primates after all.

我们是旧大陆灵长类。

We are old world primates.

这种活力展示贯穿所有旧大陆灵长类物种，包括我们人类。

And vigor displays run through all the old world primate species, including us.

我认为这绝对是一种更强烈的展示。

I think it's definitely a bigger display.

比如跺脚、挺直身躯。作为视觉科学家，我早就注意到不眨眼的现象——没人会在这种场合频繁眨眼。

Like stomping, making one's body And the lack of blinking is something that, as a vision scientist, caught on to earlier, like no one's doing this and blinking a lot.

他们展现的是在仪式完成前绝不分散注意力。

They're showing that they will not break their attention until this is complete.

当有人直视你且不眨眼时，这同样是在命令你集中注意力。

And somebody not blinking while staring directly at you is a command for your attention as well.

这种现象甚至体现在我们的语言里，对吧？

And it's even in our language, isn't it?

比如'某某人连眼睛都不眨一下'。

So and so didn't blink.

没错。

That's right.

他们绝不眨眼。

They don't blink.

他们毫无畏惧。

They're not afraid.

要知道，由于当今政治社会格局的混乱、暗杀事件、政界和网络上的强势人格，再加上我现在也算涉足媒体行业（虽然形式不同，并非政治领域），我特别着迷于这种现象：有些人获取民众注意力和忠诚度，不仅靠言论内容，更凭其言之凿凿的确定性。

Know, these days, because of the craziness of the political socio landscape, assassinations, and very strong personalities in government and online, and because I'm in media now, to at least some extent, different form of media, not politics, but I'm so intrigued by the idea that some people are capturing people's attention and loyalty, not just by virtue of what they say, but the certainty with which they say it.

这虽非新话题，但还包括他们声音的音色、对异议的拒绝接纳，以及许多声音在音色和频率上并不合适，却以这些人显然掌握的吸引他人注意力的方式传达出来。

Now that's not a new theme, but also the timbre of their voice, the refusal to entertain dissenting voices, but also how a lot of voices are just not the right timbre and frequency and delivered in the way that these people have obviously mastered their ability to command other people's attention.

因为这些东西触及原始层面。

Because this stuff hits at a primitive level.

人们投票未必仅基于议题。

People aren't necessarily just voting on issues.

他们是在为感受投票。

They're voting on feeling.

我们早就知道这点。

We've known this.

总之，哈卡舞就是你所说的绝佳例证，嗯，

So in any case, haka is a beautiful example of what you're Well,

另外音乐在军事和战争中也有作用。

and the other thing is that music plays a role in, say, the military and in war.

我曾读到军队是这个国家音乐家最大的雇主。

I read somewhere that the military is the largest employer of musicians in this country.

有意思。

Interesting.

是啊。

Yeah.

有道理。

Makes sense.

嗯，你知道，我最初听到时确实感到意外

Well, you know, I thought it was a surprise to me when I first

对。

Yeah.

第一次听说时。

First heard it.

是的。

Yeah.

让我惊讶的是，但我是说，总得有人来演奏葬礼号角。

Surprising to me, but it it makes I mean, somebody's gotta play taps.

通常来说，那是一种号角。

Usually, that's one that's one horn though.

对。

Right.

没错。

Right.

所以我认为另一个可能的视角是，许多物种中存在一些并非明显有益的特征。

So and I think the other, you know, possible angle for all of this is, you know, there are things in many species that are not obviously beneficial.

以孔雀为例，雄性孔雀在华丽羽毛上的巨大投入并不能直接提升生存技能，而是雌性孔雀所青睐的。

Take the peacock, for example, that that that enormous investment in plumage in very colorful tail feathers is not something that is directly adding to the survival skills of the male peacock, but rather it's something the female peacocks like.

因此这种特征也会自我强化。

And so that tends to feed on itself too.

这也是音乐可能成为人类特征集合的另一种方式，不一定直接与获取更多食物相关。

So that's another way that music could get into our, you know, panoply of human characteristics without necessarily directly leading to something like being able to get more food.

比如节奏感能带来更多食物。

Like, the rhythm thing gives us more food.

嗯。

Mhmm.

擅长音乐的人可能比不擅长的人拥有更多后代。

People who are good at music might end up with more offspring than people who weren't good at music.

这就是该理论那部分的大致观点。

That would be that would be the sort of general idea behind that that part of the theory.

在许多老电影中，通常是男性为女性歌唱，比如《情到深处》里约翰·库萨克用音响播放诗歌——这些通过创意作品大声表达的方式，曾是求爱的表现形式。

In many now older movies, typically it was a man singing to a woman, or in the movie Say Anything, John Cusack Or simply used a boombox, poetry, creative works, but expressed out loud, were the way that courtship took place.

埃里克·贾维斯曾参加过这个播客。

Eric Jarvis was on this podcast.

我不知道你是否认识埃里克，就是洛克菲勒那个。

I don't if you know Eric, Rockefeller.

他是个非常出色的舞者。

He's a very accomplished dancer.

不知道你听说过没，他原本应该加入阿尔文·艾利舞蹈团的。

I don't know if you know this, but he was supposed to be in the Alvin Ailey dance company.

但他最终决定成为了一名神经科学家。

He decided to become a neuroscientist instead.

不过据我所知，他现在跳舞依然很棒。

But as I understand, he's still a good dancer.

他提到自己认为原始发声可能最先演化出来。

And he was saying that he thought that perhaps primitive vocalizations evolved first.

比如表达厌恶、愉悦、恐惧或兴奋的声音。

So vocalizations of disgust or pleasure or fear or excitement.

接着他认为可能演化出了歌舞。

Then he thought perhaps came song and dance.

用歌声和肢体动作来传递感受或意图。

So song and body movement to signal what one was feeling or what their intention was.

然后口语可能才随之出现。

And then perhaps spoken language came after that.

有道理。

Makes sense.

我只是觉得我们无从得知。

I just think we don't know.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们不知道。

We don't know.

我觉得这还挺有趣的。

And I think it's kinda interesting.

可能大致有两类——比如鸣禽，它们传递的是活力、适应性和领地意识这类信号。

There are maybe sort of two like, think with the songbird, they are signaling things like vigor and fitness and territoriality, and things like that.

它们不是在传递象征性内容，而灵长类的发声往往具有特定含义。

They're not conveying something symbolic, whereas the, you know, vocalizations in the primate tend to mean something specific.

有时候我真希望有时光机，能回到进化早期看看，究竟是怎样的演化路径让我们发展出语言和音乐？

You know, sometimes I wish I, you know, could have a time machine and I could go back and, you know, look at what happened in earlier stages of evolution and just kinda see, well, what is the lineage that what is the sequence of events that led us to to have language, that led us to have music?

这是和鸣禽同源的演化过程，还是完全独立的平行进程？

Did it come from the same process as birds you know, songbirds, or did it come from a completely parallel process?

我认为进化确实能在不同时空通过不同途径形成相似特征。

I mean, I think we do see that evolution can arrive at similar characteristics through different means in different places and different times.

所以可能是趋同的平行演化，也可能是完全不同的机制。

So, you know, it could be, you know, kind of convergent parallel process, or it could be something different.

我认为音乐能传递意图。

I feel like music conveys intention.

音乐可以讲述故事。

Music can tell a story.

音乐通过将语言（有歌词时）组织成即兴段落、动机、旋律和副歌，极大提升了记忆效率。

And music, because of the way that it organizes language, provided there's lyrics, into riffs and motifs and melodies and choruses, that it makes it very easy to remember things.

我想探讨下这背后的神经机制。

I'd like to talk a little bit about the possible neural underpinnings of this.

我想到两点。

Two things come to mind.

首先，你提到了字母歌。

First of all, you mentioned the ABCs.

A、C、D、O、C，几乎人人都知道这个旋律。

A, C, D, O, C, almost everybody knows that melody.

而且以这种形式记忆这些字母可能更容易，而不是A、B、C、D、E、F、G、H，哦，当然。

And it's probably easier to remember all those letters in that form, as opposed to A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, Oh, sure.

因为你把它拆分开来。

Because you break it up.

我几乎可以确定这是真的，因为我有个好朋友，他是个非常出色的音乐家，还是个了不起的词曲作者。

And I'm almost certain this is true, because I have a good friend and he's a very accomplished musician, and he's an incredible songwriter and lyricist.

他为许多其他艺术家写过歌词，不只是他自己。

He's written lyrics for a number of other artists, not just himself.

他还有好几支乐队。

And he has like several bands.

他每天写一首歌。

He writes a song a day.

这太疯狂了。

It's crazy.

疫情期间每天一首歌。

A song a day during the pandemic.

都是很棒的歌。

Great songs.

偶尔，因为我是他音乐的忠实粉丝，我会问：'有那首歌，歌词是什么来着？'

And occasionally, because I'm such a fan of his music, I'll say, There's that one song, like, what's the lyric?

他会说：'哦，对，不记得了。'

And he'll say, Oh yeah, no, I don't remember.

然后他开始唱，接着就想起来了。

And then he'll start and then he'll remember it.

他的歌曲库里有成千上万首他自己创作并演唱的歌。

And he's got thousands of songs in his library of songs he's written and sings.

我说，那你在舞台上时是怎么运作的？

I said, So when you're on stage, how does it work?

他说，只要我能记住一段歌词的前两三个词，剩下的就会自然流淌出来

He said, As long as I can remember the first two words or three words of a verse, the rest just kind of spills out at

我。

me.

我

I

我认为这就是歌曲组织语言的方式，因为要记住一篇演讲非常困难，但记住一首歌却毫无问题。

think that's how song organizes language, because it's very hard to memorize like a speech, but you can memorize a song, no problem.

是啊。

Yeah.

这也是我的经验，只要我知道一段歌词的开头几个词，就能想起整段歌词。

And that's my experience too, that if I know the first couple of words of a verse, I've got the rest of the verse.

没错。

Yeah.

这真有趣。

It's so interesting.

在大脑方面，我们还没怎么讨论过脑部结构，也许...我们不该用各种名称填满人们的头脑，因为我常说，管它叫上丘还是上什么丘，根本不重要——真的不重要。

So in the brain, we haven't talked too much about brain structures yet, but maybe And we do not to fill people's minds with names of things, because I always say, like, it doesn't matter if it's called the superior colliculus or the superior schmannoliculus, it doesn't matter unless- It doesn't matter.

但有趣的是这些不同脑区的特性...比如耳朵负责分离不同频率的声音，当然听觉神经科学还有很多重要内容（无意冒犯听觉神经科学家们）。

But what's interesting are the properties of these different So brain I think about the ears as separating different frequencies of sound, and then there's a bunch of other important stuff, no disrespect to the auditory neuroscientists.

就像你说的，上丘是听觉、视觉和其他感官汇聚的地方。

As you said, in the superior colliculus is where hearing and vision and the other senses come together.

它们相互映射。

They're mapped onto one another.

结果发现实际情况比这更复杂也更有趣。

It turns out that the story is more complicated and more interesting than that.

我一开始提到的那项研究特别吸引了我。

I got hooked on that particular study that I mentioned at the beginning.

这是关于上丘中的听觉信号会受到声音呈现时眼球位置的影响。

So this was auditory signals in the superior colliculus being affected by the position of the eyes at the time the sound was presented.

现在我们的观众已经了解了声音是如何被定位的。

And now our audience knows about how sound is localized.

我们还没怎么讨论过视觉信息是如何定位的。

We haven't talked that much about how visual information is localized.

我想主要是因为这在很大程度上很明显——你的眼睛就像一个小相机，光线照射到视网膜的特定位置，而这个视网膜位置告诉我们视觉刺激的位置。

Think because mostly that's fairly obvious that your your eye is kind of a little camera and light hits a particular location on the retina, and that retinal location tells us what the location of the visual stimulus is.

但它告诉我们的是视觉刺激相对于眼睛指向方向的位置，而我们的声音定位线索则是声音相对于头部的位置。

But it tells us the location of the visual stimulus with respect to the direction the eyes are pointing, but our sound localization cues are with respect to where's the sound with respect to the head.

因此，神经元对声音有反应但非常关注眼睛位置这一发现，最初出现时确实令人惊讶。

So, this finding that neurons were responsive to sound but cared very much about the position of the eyes was really a startling finding when it first came about.

当我建立自己的实验室时，我基本上就开始着手研究：这种计算是在哪里发生的？

When I set up my own lab, I basically set out to find out, well, where does this computation happen?

大脑在哪里将眼球运动信息整合到声音处理中？

Where is the brain incorporating information about eye movements into the processing of sound?

我们从文献中知道，上丘是其中一个地方，但它是在上丘发生的，还是在大脑其他区域发生的？

You know, we knew from the literature was, okay, the superior colliculus is one of the places, but you know, does it happen in the superior colliculus or does it happen in a different brain area?

于是我们沿着听觉通路研究了大脑区域——我称它们为听觉通路的一部分，因为它们与耳朵的连接比其他任何部位都紧密得多。

And so we kind of marched along the auditory pathway in brain areas that I call them part of the auditory pathway because they're much more closely connected to the ear than to anything else.

而且因为当时没有人认为这些区域存在视觉信号，我们以为它们只是听觉的。

And because at the time nobody thought there were visual signals in these areas, we thought it was just auditory.

后来发现这也不完全正确，但它们确实比视觉更偏向听觉。

That too turned out not to be true, but they're definitely much more auditory than visual.

我们发现，在这些区域的每一个中，眼球运动也会影响那里的听觉信号，尽管它们并不在上丘这种会聚结构中。

And what we found was that in each of these areas, eye movements affect the auditory signals there too, even though they weren't in this convergent structure of the superior colliculus.

因此，我们决定若要遍历每个脑区会耗费很长时间，或许值得跳过几个脑区直接观察耳朵本身。

So, we decided that it would take a long time to march through every brain area, and that it might be worth sort of jumping over a few brain areas and looking in the ear itself.

所以我需要向听众多提供一些信息，关于耳朵里可能发生的情况以及为何这样做是合理的。

So I need to give the audience a little bit more information about what, you know, what is possible in the ear and why that seemed like a reasonable thing to do.