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这种文化体现在组织的每一个角落，这种精益求精、细致入微和不断提升的精神。
The culture was expressed in every single corner of the organization, this polish and meticulousness and leveling up.
我能想到的最佳例证是，在公司历史的某个阶段，洗手间里播放的不是音乐，而是语言学习磁带。
And the best example I could think of for this is that at some point in the company's history, instead of music playing in the bathrooms, it was language learning tapes.
想想还挺有趣的。
And it's kind of funny to think about.
比如，我不认为有人每天在洗手间里待的那几分钟能学会一门语言。
Like, I don't think anyone's gonna learn a language in there however many minutes a day in the bathroom.
但仅仅通过洗手间里的声音这个细节来表达自我，就充分体现了这家公司对细节的极致关注，以及他们为贯彻理念愿意走多远。
But just the idea that the sound in the bathroom is a corner of the org to express yourself in, there's a lot there about just how meticulous and corners focused the company would be and how far of a length they would go to be intentional about things.
欢迎收听《深度解析》，一档为创始人和初创企业领袖提供团队成长、公司发展及个人提升所需战术建议的节目。
Welcome to In-depth, a show that surfaces tactical advice founders and startup leaders need to grow their teams, companies, and themselves.
我是布雷特·伯森，First Round资本的合伙人。我们是一家风险投资公司，曾协助Notion、Roblox、Uber和Square等初创企业完成公司建设创举。
I'm Brett Berson, a partner at First Round, and we're a venture capital firm that helps startups like Notion, Roblox, Uber, and Square tackle company building firsts.
在《深度解析》播客中，我们每周与初创企业领袖进行深度对话，跳过场面话，不仅探讨该做什么，更聚焦如何执行。
On the in-depth podcast, we share weekly conversations with startup leaders that skip the talking points and go deeper into not just what to do, but how to do it.
欢迎访问firstgrand.com了解更多并订阅。
Learn more and subscribe today at firstgrand.com.
今天的《深度解析》节目，我非常荣幸邀请到布里·沃尔夫森加入我们。
For today's episode of In-depth, I'm really excited to be joined by Brie Wolfson.
布里曾在Stripe工作近五年，负责商业运营并创立Stripe Press，后任职Figma负责教育板块。
Brie spent nearly five years at Stripe, where she worked on BizOps and launched Stripe Press, followed by a stint at Figma, where she worked on education.
随后她创立了咨询公司Kool Aid Factory，专门分享团队文化建设经验。
She then started her consultancy named The Kool Aid Factory to share her lessons on building team cultures.
如今她作为首次创业者，正在打造团队协作新工具Constellate。
And now she's operating as a first time founder building Constellate, a new productivity and communications tool for teams.
去年她还为我们撰写了一篇精彩的首轮评测文章，分享了她个人使用以保持高效专注的模板合集。
She also penned a really great first round review article for us last year where she shared the collection of templates she personally uses to stay productive and focused.
我们会在节目说明中加入这些模板的链接。
So we'll include a link to those in the show notes.
但在今天的对话中，我们聚焦于企业文化。
But in today's conversation, we're focused on company culture.
过去二十年间，谷歌和亚马逊等公司主导了文化思潮，创始人们都想效仿它们的成功秘诀。
Over the last couple decades or so, companies like Google and Amazon dominated the cultural zeitgeist, with founders wanting to emulate their secret sauce.
如今初创企业有了新的效仿对象，其中Stripe高居榜首。
Today, there's a new regard of companies that startups want to model themselves after, with Stripe at the very top of the list.
在与Brie的对话中，我们不仅剖析了推动Stripe迅猛发展的文化支柱，还探讨了这些文化在日常工作中的具体体现。
In my conversation with Brie, we peel back the layers into not just the cultural pillars that drove Stripe's meteoric rise, but also how these showed up in day to day work.
举个例子，该公司因其写作与文档文化在创始人圈子里备受推崇。
As one example, the company is revered in founder circles for its writing and documentation culture.
Brie深入细节，解析这种文化如何在微观层面得以体现。
Brie gets deep into the details of how this shows up on a cellular level.
他们具体使用哪些类型的文档？
What sort of specific documents do they use?
每位员工如何提升自己的写作能力？
How does each individual employee boost up their writing chops?
写作文化如何与Slack等其他协作工具相互融合？
How does the writing culture intersect with other tools of collaboration like Slack?
对于那些致力于构建类似文档密集型公司文化的企业，有什么成功秘诀吗？
And what's the formula for companies that have their sights set on building a similarly document heavy company culture?
我们还将视角扩大到Stripe之外，探讨她与其他公司在文化主题上的合作。
We also zoom out beyond Stripe to talk about her work teaming up with other companies on the topic of culture.
布里分享了关于制定运营准则、建立有意义的仪式，以及随着公司规模扩大培育这种文化内核的建议。
Bree shares advice on codifying your operating principles, establishing meaningful rituals, and growing this kernel of culture as the company scales.
希望您能享受这次全面访谈，以及布里基于她作为公司领导者、顾问，如今又作为创始人的经历，对创建繁荣独特公司文化的见解。
I hope you enjoy this sweeping interview and Bree's perspective on creating a thriving, singular company culture based on her experience as a company leader, a consultant, and now as a founder herself.
现在开始我与布里的对话。
And now my conversation with Brie.
非常感谢您的参与。
Thank you so much for joining us.
我对这次对话充满期待。
I'm excited for the conversation.
谢谢邀请。
Thank you for having me.
我们有太多可以切入的角度和共同探讨的想法。
There's so many different places that we could jump off and and ideas to explore together.
我在想或许可以从某个切入点开始——你曾写过并深入思考过的，关于不同公司文化仪式如何最终成为企业成功要素的内容。
I thought maybe one place to begin, and then some of the stuff that you've written about and I think thought a lot about are kinda different parts of culture and rituals across different companies and how they become inputs ultimately to the company's success.
比如你写过的，也是很多人讨论过的Stripe文档文化，你曾在那里工作多年。
One example is you've written about, and a lot of people have talked about the culture of writing and documentation at Stripe where you spent a number of years.
或许你可以先解释下这种文化的具体表现，以及为何你认为它对公司的影响如此深远。
And maybe you could start by explaining what that looked like and why you think it was so impactful to the company.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这是个非常好的问题，而且人们对书面文化或注重书写的文化的态度演变相当有趣，尤其是现在我们转向了更混合的模式。
I think that's a really good question, and it's been a pretty neat evolution, I think, in people's attitudes towards written cultures or cultures that focus on writing, especially now that we move to a more hybrid model.
注重书写的文化的优点变得越来越清晰，也越来越真实。
The virtues of writing focused cultures has just become more and more clear and more and more true.
所以我特别兴奋能讨论这个话题。
So I'm really excited to talk about this thing in particular.
关于Stripe的书写文化，我认为影响最大的有两点。
The thing I'll say that I think made the greatest impact about Stripe's writing culture is twofold.
首先是，人们最初可能会认为书写的影响主要体现在为读者创造的成果上，认为书写是一种善意或慷慨的行为，你花大量时间创作内容让他人从中受益。
One is that I think at first blush, people think about the impact of writing as sort of, like, the artifact it creates for the readers, and that writing is sort of a benevolent or a generous act where you're spending a bunch of time producing something so that somebody else can benefit from that artifact.
但我在这种书写文化中学到的是，书写本身其实蕴含着巨大的内在价值。
But what I learned from being in this culture of writing is that, actually, there's a ton of intrinsic value to writing too.
当你着手书写时，实际上是在塑造自己对某件事的思考方式。
When you set out to write something, you actually are sort of crafting the way you that you think about something.
因此它真正成为了一条通往更严谨思考的路径。
So it really becomes like a path towards more rigorous thinking.
所以我认为这不仅让我们成为了更好的沟通者或跨职能协作者，更让我们整个组织成为了更好的思考者。
So I think it just made us better thinkers as an organization and not just better communicators or cross functional collaborators.
这是创始人们自然形成的，还是背后有某种刻意设计？
Was that just emergent from the founders, or there was some intentionality behind it?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这其中很大一部分源于创始人，就像任何核心文化支柱一样。
I think a good amount of this comes from the founders just like any core cultural staple.
关于这一点我想说的是，约翰和帕特里克本身就是出色的作家。
And one thing I'll say about this is that John and Patrick are fantastic writers themselves.
所以他们经常示范这种行为，我们都从中受益。
So they modeled this behavior a lot, and we all got to receive the benefits of it.
我想我最怀念在Stripe工作的时光就是帕特里克的邮件。
I think the thing I miss the most about working at Stripe is Patrick's emails.
就在我们准备这次谈话前，我们还在讨论现在是个多么疯狂的时期，我不禁好奇帕特里克对公司说了些什么。
And just before when we were ramping up to this, we were talking about what a wacky time this is, and I found myself sort of wondering what Patrick's been saying to the company about that.
这些文字和思考，一直萦绕在我心头。
These writings and musings, they stuck with me.
它们也萦绕在我们很多人心头。
They stuck with a lot of us.
所以我认为感受写作的益处很有帮助，而且他们也是博览群书的人。
So I think just feeling the virtues of writing helps, and also that they are prolific readers.
他们阅读量非常大。
They just read a ton.
所以你可以相信，如果有人写了什么，他们可能会读到你要说的话。
So you can trust that if someone writes something, they might just read what you have to say.
当你逆向分析时，比如以帕特里克在公司内部的写作为例，正如你所说，这些作品确实出类拔萃，你会如何向没读过他给公司备忘录之类的人描述？
When you kind of reverse engineer, let's take Patrick's writing inside the company, and as you articulated, it was really exceptionally good, how would you describe it to someone who hasn't read maybe a memo he shared with the company or something else like that?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为乔治·桑德斯对此有个精妙的说法，那就是好的写作。
I think George Saunders has a nice little shtick about this, which is good writing.
就是你只想继续读下一句。
It's just you just want to read the next sentence.
我觉得它的意思是'引人入胜'的简写。
And I think it just says it's shorthand for it's compelling.
这很有趣。
It's interesting.
里面全是干货。
It's full of juicy stuff.
有很多值得琢磨的地方。
There's just a lot to latch on to there.
就像我之前说的，它体现了真正有趣的思考。
To the point I was making before, like, it reflects real interesting thought.
这不仅仅是一篇文章。
It's not just a piece of writing.
它还有更深层次的作用。
It does something else.
我在准备这次谈话时就在想，当初知道Stripe是注重写作文化的公司时，是什么给了我最初的切入点。
And, yeah, I was thinking about, just in preparation for this, how I knew that Stripe was a writing focused culture, sort of what gave me something to chew on when I got started.
我想起入职第一天收到《我们如何运作》文件时的情形。
And I was thinking of my first day and just receiving this how we operate document.
之前工作过的公司从没给过这样的材料，我当时就直接回到工位开始研读。
And I'd never received anything like this before at a company I worked, and I just, like, went to my desk and got started.
但我们掌握了这些操作方法或我们的操作原则。
But we got this how to operate or our operating principles.
里面有泰勒·科恩的语录，还有关于理查德·费曼的故事。
And it had quotes from Tyler Cohen, and it had a story about Richard Feynman.
它还教会了我什么是'陷阱门决策'。
And it taught me what a trapdoor decision was.
我的意思是，我原本对这些人物和框架一无所知，但我完全被迷住了。
I mean, I didn't know anything about these people or these frameworks, but I was totally hooked.
我在学习。
I was learning.
我对这些新角色充满好奇，他们让我又掉进了其他知识兔子洞。
I was curious about these new characters that sent me down sort of other rabbit holes.
所以，我认为优秀写作的特质就在于它引人入胜。
So, yeah, I think these qualities of good writing is it's just compelling.
比如，如果你的朋友在你公司工作，或者有人联系你说想提升写作水平，除了阅读优秀作品外，你会建议他们怎么做？
You know, if a friend of yours is working at your company or someone reaches out to you and says, I wanna become a better writer, other than maybe just reading great things, what would you tell them to do?
多写。
Write a lot.
我认为阻碍很多人写作的原因是——打开文档看到光标在那里闪烁的感觉太难受了。
I think the thing that gets in the way of a lot of people writing is it's so uncomfortable to open up a document and see that cursor blinking at you like that.
那种感觉简直就像在说'天啊'一样煎熬。
It's sort of just like an excruciating feeling of like, wow.
这块空白画布空空如也，而我必须用我的想法填满它。
This blank canvas is empty, and I have to fill it with my ideas.
确实，刚开始行动的门槛真的很高。
And, yeah, there's a real high barrier there to just get going.
但我认识的所有优秀作家都有这个习惯。
But all the best writers I know have a habit around it.
他们就是会老老实实坐下来写。
They will just, like, get their ass in the chair and write.
我觉得这很难做到。
And I think it's hard to do.
如果你像你说的那样大量阅读，也会逐渐发现自己写作中的不足。
And if you read a lot, like you said, you will also sort of notice the flaws in your own writing.
所以就是要花大量时间写作、阅读、编辑。
So just spending a lot of time writing, reading, editing.
有句我很喜欢的话。
There's that quote I like.
「本想给你写封简短的信，可惜时间不够」。
I would have written you a shorter letter, but I didn't have the time.
其实就是先动笔把文字写出来，然后再自己修改。
It's just kind of getting in there, getting the words on the page, and then editing your own stuff.
你最终就是这样写作的吗？
Is that how you end up writing?
比如说你要写一个项目提案或公司文件，先打开空白的Google文档或Notion文档，你一般会怎么做？
Let's say, you know, you're putting together a, I don't know, project proposal or something, a company, and you start by opening up a blank Google Doc or Notion Doc or whatever, what do you tend to do?
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
我就是不停地写啊写。
I just write and write and write.
我的思考很大程度上是通过键盘完成的。
I very much think through my keyboard.
如果不写下来，我就无法清晰地思考任何事。
I cannot think about anything clearly until it's written.
我觉得这让我特别适合Stripe那种重视书写的文化氛围。
And I think this made me maybe, like, a particularly good fit for Stripe's writing culture.
但确实，我非常依赖书写作为思考工具。
But, yeah, I I very much use it as a tool for thought.
通常随着时间的推移，其中的组织逻辑会自然显现。
And usually, kind of, like, the organizing principle around it will reveal itself over time.
这有点像雕刻的过程。
It's kind of like sculpting or something.
你懂吗？
You know?
艺术家们常说他们能在大理石块中看到雕塑的雏形。
Artists say they, like, see the sculpture in the block of marble or something.
我认为只要纸上积累足够多的文字，最终总能发现最有趣的那些。
I think eventually, if you have enough words on the page, you find the ones that are the most interesting.
能否具体描述下，当你说Stripe有很强的书写文化时，这种文化在日常/每周/每月中是如何体现的？以及与非刻意培养书写文化的普通公司相比有何不同？
Can you bring to life, like, when you use the term Stripe had, like, a very strong writing culture, Maybe what that looked like on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis, and maybe how you might contrast that with maybe a, quote, normal company or a company that maybe doesn't have this level of intentionality around writing.
是的。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
所以我觉得Stripe写作文化最令人震惊的部分在于其内部文档的数量之多——我指的不是那种'如何使用这个东西'的说明文档。
So I think the shocking part about Stripe's writing culture is just how much internal documentation and I don't mean, like, here's how to use this thing.
我的意思是，这里记录的是我对事物运作方式的思考。
I mean, like, here are my thoughts on how this thing goes.
类似这样的文档究竟有多少存在？
Like, just how much of that exists?
Patio 11，Stripe资深员工，某种程度上算是初创企业导师。
Patio 11, long time Stripe, and sort of startup whisperer.
他说阅读内部文档库是他最喜欢的工作福利之一。
He says he called the reading the library of internal documentation one of his favorite job perks.
具体操作层面是这样的（我真该保存些截图，因为当时情况确实很疯狂）
So what it looked like tactically, and I wish I had saved screenshots of this or something because it was truly wild.
但我们大部分工作是通过邮件完成的。
But we did most of this in email.
再次强调，现在的Stripe可能和我离职时已经大不相同了。
And, again, I should say that this is Stripe is probably very different today than it was when I left it.
但在我任职期间，系统里有一堆Google群组，名称可能是PJ Notes（Patrick和John的笔记）、回顾报告、现状报告、组织架构变更、公告或新员工介绍之类的。
But the way that it looked to me at the time I was working there is a bunch of Google groups, and these might have names like PJ Notes, as in Patrick and John Notes, or retrospectives, or state of, or org changes, or announcements, or new hires.
这些都显示在左侧边栏，当有人在新话题下留言时就会加粗显示。
And those were all in the left hand sidebar, and they bolded up if there if someone wrote something new to that thread.
我可以点击进入回顾报告群组，里面都是公司同事对他们所做工作的总结报告。
So I could click into the retrospectives Google Group, and anyone at the company who had produced a retrospective about something they had worked on would be in there.
这确实促成了大量跨部门协作，我是说，甚至是组织里相距甚远的成员之间。
So this really led to a ton of cross functional and, like I mean, like, people in distant parts of the org.
我只需阅读他们对某些事的思考。
I could just read about their musings on something.
我想你会惊讶于这类文档的出现频率。
I think you would be surprised at the frequency of these kinds of documents.
所以当我说你可以点击查看是否有新的回顾文档时——其实总会有新的回顾文档。
So when I said, like, you can click in to see if there's a new retrospective, there was always a new retrospective.
总有人在记录他们交付项目后的心得体会。
Somebody was always writing up their learnings about something they had shipped.
这些都是高频使用的机制。
These were very high frequency mechanisms.
或许我该早点提到——当我们讨论写作的优点时——在Stripe，实际执行者才是公司历史的书写者。
And I probably should have said this earlier when we were talking about the virtues of writing is that at Stripe, the practitioners set the record for the company.
不仅仅是管理者汇报团队动态。
It wasn't just managers reporting on what their teams are up to.
是那些真正做事的独立贡献者，他们撰写了这些精彩绝伦的实况记录。
It was the ICs who were doing the work, doing these really fantastic write ups of what was actually going on.
这完全是民主化的。
And it's completely democratic.
任何人都可以向这些邮件列表投稿，而且大家经常这么做，因为做这些事能获得组织积分。
Anyone can publish to any of these listservs, and they did it often because you kinda got org points for doing this stuff.
通常文档质量越高，阅读的人就越多。
And the better your doc, probably the more people who read it.
是的，频率非常高。
So, yeah, the frequency was very high.
这和业务的任何部分都有点关系吗？
It's sort of related to any part of the business?
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
我认为一种思考方式是文件记录与内容策展的区别，文件记录可能就像是，嘿。
I think one way to think about this is paper trails versus a curation, where a paper trail might be just like, hey.
这些是会议记录，或是从这个讨论中产生的行动项。
These are notes from the meeting, or these are the actions that came out of this thread.
而内容策展则是，好吧。
And a curation is just, okay.
我已经完成了这部分工作，现在我要以一种跨部门人员——即使他们不太了解这个工作流的细节——也会觉得有趣的方式来讨论它。
I've, like, done this body of work, and now I'm gonna talk about it in a way that a cross functional person who doesn't really have context on the details of this work stream might find interesting.
所以当我在做Stripe Press时，我给公司发了一封状态邮件。
So I published into the company a state email when I was working on Stripe Press.
状态邮件有这样的特点，比如，这是项目的当前状态。
And state emails have this quality of, like, here is the state of the project.
我当时向公司发布了这样一封邮件，邮件底部有一个章节列出了我正在纠结的问题。
So I had published one of these into the company, and there was a section at the bottom with questions I was struggling with.
当时我特别思考的问题是：Stripe Press应该如何向作者支付报酬？
And the particular question that was on my mind was how should Stripe Press pay its authors?
传统的版税预付模式似乎不太适合我们的需求，但我当时对应该采用什么模式也感到困惑。
The traditional advance on royalties model didn't seem like quite the right fit for what we were up to, but I was kind of stuck on what was.
所以我只是把这个疑问公开抛给了公司。
So I just published this into the company, open question.
而一位素未谋面、在异地办公室工作的工程师曾就职于唱片公司，他分享了唱片公司用于支付艺人的模式，这个模式与我们最终采用的方案更为接近。
And an engineer I had never met in an office across the country had previously worked at a record label, and he had he shared the model that they used to pay their artists at the record label, and that one was a lot closer to the one that we ended up working with.
如果不写这封邮件，我永远不可能找到这个人。
I would have never found that person without writing this email.
但正因为我向公司发出了这种'调音叉'般的信号，他才能找到我，这创造了一种非常真实自然的合作方式。
But because I had sent this sort of tuning fork up to the company, he was able to find me, and it just created, like, a very authentic, organic way to collaborate.
要知道，这种事不会出现在任何人的绩效考核里。
You know, this didn't show up in anybody's perf.
他很可能没有在每周工作小结或汇报中提到这件事。
He probably didn't report that he was doing this up in his weekly snippets or updates.
这就是纯粹的团队协作时刻，同事间互帮互助。
It was just a true collaborative teammates helping each other moment.
这真的很有帮助。
That's really helpful.
你刚才提到了状态邮件或文档、回顾邮件或文档这类文件。
And so you mentioned sort of state emails or documents, retrospective emails or documents.
能否请你介绍下三到七种经常重复出现的格式或模板，那些有一定使用频率的模板？
Could you walk through maybe three, five, seven of, like, the formats or things that tended to repeat themselves or the templates that were used in some level of frequency?
好的。
Yeah.
我想这些模板可能不太适合用'最佳描述'来形容，更像是事后分发的之类的东西。
I think probably the templates would be sort of, like, not best described, but maybe, like, distributed after or something.
但我认为光是拥有模板这个想法本身就非常有帮助。
But I think even just the insight to have a template is pretty helpful.
主要是Stripe发布时使用的规范清单，就是问你最近发布了什么，'发布'可以包括面向用户的内容或公司内部的内容。
The main canonical list that Stripe was shipped at, so just what did you ship lately, and shipped could encompass something that was user facing or internal to the company.
事实上，随着时间的推移，它变成了'已发布'和'未发布'的状态。
In fact, over time, it was became shipped, unshipped.
也包括你从系统中移除的内容，这是为了优先处理公司正在进行的基础设施工作。
It was also things that you had kind of, like, removed from the system as a way to prioritize the infrastructure work that the company was doing.
而且，我觉得为这类事情准备模板来指导写作，这实际上才是最重要的。
And, yeah, I think just the insight to have templates for these sorts of things to help guide the hand in writing this stuff, I think that's actually the most important thing.
每家公司需要了解的信息不同，或者希望这些邮件反映不同的内容。
Every company needs to know a different thing or wants a different set of information to be reflected in these emails.
所以我不确定内容本身是否有趣，重要的是最初指导内容创作的思路。
So I don't know if the content is as interesting as just the idea to guide the hand in the content in the first place.
关于发布邮件，它的格式应该是怎样的？或者说回顾邮件或文档的格式是什么？
With the shipped email, what would be, like, the format of that, or what's the format of a retrospective email or document?
在Stripe这些只是草稿，但我曾帮助其他公司构建这些模板。
At Stripe, these were just pros, but I've worked with companies to help them build these templates.
每个公司的模板看起来确实都不一样，我这里有一个我给合作公司的通用模板。
And they truly do look different at every single one, but here, I actually have one that I give out to companies that I work with.
所以我会展示如果与公司合作时，最终会放入发布邮件模板的内容。
So I'll reflect what ended up in the template for a shipped email if I was working with a company.
这是对已发生事件的总结。
So it's the a summary of what happened.
你做了什么？
What did you do?
这对公司有什么帮助？
How does it help the company?
交付了什么成果？
What shipped?
现在有哪些以前不存在的东西？
What exists now that didn't before?
背景和动机。
Context and motivation.
公司为什么要做这项工作？
Why did the company wanna do this work?
为什么优先处理这个项目？
Why was it prioritized?
哪些前期工作为此奠定了基础？
What other works set the stage?
现在应该有哪些不同？
What should be different now?
幕后故事——仅供内部了解其发展历程。
Under the hood, the story of how it got here for our eyes only.
那么这件事可能会如何载入史册呢？
So what could what would go down in the history books about it?
成功标准。
Success criteria.
我们如何知道是否做得很好？
How do we know if we did a good job?
我们的衡量标准是什么？
What were our metrics?
实验设计是怎样的？
What was experimental design?
接下来是什么？
What's next?
这如何影响我们的未来？
How does this impact our future?
如何保持关注。
How to keep tabs.
如果有人想了解最新动态，他们应该去哪里查看？
If anyone wants to stay up to date on what's going on, where should they look?
询问读者或旁观者是否有问题，然后感谢做出贡献的人。
Ask if there are any for the readers or onlookers, and then thank you to the people who contributed.
这真的很有助于让它变得生动起来。
That was really helpful to kinda bring it to life.
那么项目或工作流启动时呢？
What about for when a project or work stream is getting kicked off?
你注意到哪些书面材料或格式在项目启动时特别有用？
What sort of the written collateral or formats that you've noticed are useful when you're getting something going?
是的。
Yeah.
我很高兴你提到项目启动会议，因为我认为这在当今公司中往往被忽视了。
I'm glad you brought off kickoffs because I actually think this is sort of overlooked in companies today.
事情刚开始时往往看起来并不那么有趣。
Things often don't seem very interesting when they're first getting started.
但第一，它们确实重要。
But one, they are.
第二，可能有人能提供见解帮助你做得更好。
And two, somebody might have an insight that could help you do a better job.
第三，我经常看到这种情况——即便是非常小的公司也这样，这让我很痛心——两个团队在做重复的工作。
And three, and I see this all the time even for companies that are super tiny, which is excruciating to me, just that two groups are working on the same thing.
总之，我认为项目启动会议普遍被低估了，不过我确实准备了另一个模板。
So, anyway, I think just the kickoff in general is pretty overlooked, but I do have another template for this.
项目启动会议模板。
So kickoff template.
重申一下，这是我在Kool Aid Factory工作时会交付给客户的版本。
And, again, this is, like, the one that I would deliver to clients when I was working on Kool Aid Factory.
你的实验假设是什么？
So what is your experimental hypothesis?
概述是什么？
So what's the overview?
你要解决的核心问题是什么？
What's the issue you're trying to solve?
你想回答哪些问题？
What questions are you trying to answer?
你的假设是什么？
What is your hypothesis?
你为什么得出这个结论？
Why did you come to it?
基准信息是什么？
What's the baseline information?
这是基于其他潜在结果的。
This is based on other potential outcomes.
实验中可能会发生什么？
So what could happen in the experiment?
这能让你学到什么？
What would that teach you?
非目标事项。
Non goals.
你认为哪些内容超出范围？
What do you think is out of scope?
现有技术。
Prior art.
这个领域已经有人做过相关研究了吗？
Has anything already been done in this domain?
哪些方法有效或无效？
What worked or didn't work?
衡量影响。
Measuring the impact.
你预期的短期和长期指标或目标是什么？
What are the immediate and long term metrics or goals you expect?
你预期的长期结果是什么？
What are the long term outcomes you expect?
然后可能还需要考虑实验设计相关的内容。
And then maybe some stuff around experimental design.
包括对象、控制变量、目标人群、时间地点，以及项目团队的范围。
So who, variations in controls, who are you targeting, when and where, and then scope around the and the project team.
所以你的时间线、预算、限制条件、任何阻碍因素、继任计划，以及项目团队和沟通相关的事项。
So your timeline, your budget, your constraints, any blockers, any succession plans, and then things around the project team and communication.
那么直接负责人是谁？
So who's the DRI?
核心工作小组有哪些成员？
Who's in the core working group?
你的利益相关方是谁？
Who are your stakeholders?
你的赞助方是谁？
Who are your sponsors?
你会使用哪些沟通渠道？
What communication channels will you use?
如果需要的话，你在工作或决策时可能需要牢记哪些项目原则。
And if you need, what project principles might you want to keep in mind as you work or make decisions.
深度参与书面文化让你对背景环境在个人成就卓越工作中的角色有何见解？
What has being so involved in written cultures taught you about the role of context in allowing individuals to do great work?
是的。
Yeah.
这是个非常好的问题。
That's a really good question.
我喜欢这个问题，因为它突显了一种认知——你并不总是确切知道需要哪些输入或信息才能出色完成工作。
And I like it because it highlights an understanding that you don't always know exactly what inputs or exactly what information you might need in order to do a great job.
你并不总能准确知道该查阅哪份文档。
You don't always know exactly the right doc to look at.
你并不总能准确知道该找谁请教，但你确实希望创造有利条件。
You don't always know exactly the right person to go to, but you do wanna set the conditions.
我有时把这称为原始混沌状态——就像你对事物有种模糊的感知。
And I I sometimes I refer to this as, like, the primordial ooze or something where it just like, you have just, like, an ambient feeling of things.
你会对用户的说话方式和他们使用的词汇形成一种模糊认知。
You have an ambient sense of how your users talk and, like, what words they use.
你不需要查阅那种标注着'用户常用词汇表'的文档。
And you don't need to go to a doc that's like, here's the lexicon of things that our users like to say.
只要多倾听他们，你自然就会理解他们描述事物的方式。
But just if you listen to them a lot, you'll just get a sense of how they talk about things.
我认为这种设定整体氛围的背景环境——那种原始的、混沌的、更松散的东西，往往能催生最佳创意，让你在看似无关的想法间建立联系。
So I think this kind of context setting sort of overall vibe of things, primordial, oozy kind of looser stuff is often the stuff that produces the best ideas, and it allows you to make connections across seemingly disparate ideas.
这如何与实际情况对应？要知道即使在一家相对较小的公司（比如50到100人规模），每天可能产生的信息量也远超你能阅读或消化的范围，你必须有所取舍。
How does that map to the fact that, you know, even if you're at a relatively small company, call it 50 to a 100 people, there might be more things than you could possibly read or consume in any given day, and you kinda have to pick and choose.
我注意到的一点是，这与你分享的内容相呼应——那些看似与某人工作完全无关的背景信息，其实蕴含着巨大的价值。
And one of the things that I've noticed, and I think it builds on some of the things that you were sharing, is that there's a tremendous amount of value in context that at times seems completely unrelated to someone's job.
当大多数人思考背景信息时，他们往往局限于特定角色或职能，视角非常狭窄。
And when a lot of people think about context, I think they think about it in a given role or function, and they think about it very narrowly.
当出现这种惊人的跨领域融合时，那些看似与工作无关的背景信息最终能让人表现得更好，这就是其巨大的优势所在。
And there's this tremendous upside that you get when there's this kind of amazing amount of cross pollinization, and there's context that seemingly is unrelated to someone's job that ultimately allows them to do a better job.
你可以举出无数例子，比如一个产品经理若能接触并理解企业实际的损益状况——
And you you could come up with a zillion examples, but it might be a product manager that has access and understands what the actual p and l of the business is.
虽然表面上这个人只是在处理某个功能模块——
And, like, well, this person's just doing this feature over here.
这看似无关紧要。
It doesn't matter.
但当员工接触到来自业务其他角落的背景信息时，神奇的事情就会发生。
But there's this magical thing that happens when someone is exposed to this context maybe in some other pocket of the business.
真正的挑战在于：如何传播信息？当团队规模达到数百人时，就算把所有时间都用来消化这些信息也不够用，员工该如何选择该吸收什么内容？
The challenge is that from a how do you disseminate information, how does someone even choose what to consume given that certainly, when you get into the hundreds of people, there's probably not even enough hours in the day if you wanted to spend all of your time trying to consume this stuff.
对于信息如何组织传递这个问题，除了让终端用户自行决定外，你有什么想法吗？
Do you have any thoughts on, like, how does stuff get organized or how does stuff get routed other than maybe just letting the end user decide whatever they want?
首先，信息过载确实是个普遍现象。
One is that, like, this information overload is a total thing.
这是许多员工和管理者共同面临的现实困境。
It's a total experience that a lot of employees have, a lot of leaders have.
不过我认为人类其实挺擅长处理这种情况的。
And I think just humans are, like, pretty good at this.
你相当擅长逐渐发现什么能引起你的兴趣。
You're pretty good at figuring out what's interesting to you over time.
我认为公司架构在此的作用是——你们有哪些黑色频道？
And where I think the company sort of architecture comes into play here is what black channels do you have?
有回顾总结专用的频道吗？
Is there a retrospectives one?
如果没有，回顾内容可能会被困在各个团队频道里。
If not, the retrospectives will probably get stuck within team channels.
所以如果你是公司领导，想查看所有回顾内容，就得关注每个团队频道，不断检查滚动，确保没有遗漏任何频道里的有趣内容。
So if you're the company leader and you wanna see all the retrospectives, you'd have to follow every single team and keep kind of checking and scrolling to make sure there's nothing interesting in each of these channels.
但如果单独设立回顾频道，大家就能交叉发布内容，这为更多此类思考创造了条件。
But if you pull this out and have the retrospectives channel, folks can cross post or it kind of sets the stage for more of this kind of thinking.
因此我认为，Slack频道和沟通规范的总架构师角色对此大有帮助。
So I actually think, like, this master architect role of this Slack channels and communication norms can help a lot with this.
通过Kool Aid合作时，我发现一个反直觉现象：应对信息过载的直觉方案是精简频道数量。
And one counterintuitive thing that I've encountered with the companies I work with through Kool Aid is the intuitive antidote to information overload is to just distill, have fewer channels.
但实际上，我主张设立更多频道。
But, actually, I advocate for having a lot more channels.
这样频道能保持专注主题，成员也能相应设置权限。
That way, they can stay more narrowly focused and folks can kind of set their permission accordingly.
必须说明这需要大量维护工作，很难高效运作。
I will say this takes a ton of work in gardening, and it's really hard to be effective at it.
而且很难用正确方式推动这类事物发展。
And it's really hard to evolve this stuff in the right ways.
我认为这也是你提到的模板能发挥作用的地方。
And this is where I think the templates you were talking about help too.
虽然这是个难题，但值得解决并深入思考。
But it's a hard problem, but it's one worth solving and worth thinking a lot about.
正如你所说，结合正确的背景、洞察力、跨公司理念和全局优化，这才是最佳工作的配方。
Because like you said, working with the right context and the right insight and the right cross company ideas and global optimization, like, that is the recipe for the best work.
因此，找到激励方式或降低执行门槛至关重要。
So figuring out a way to incentivize it or to make it easier for folks to do that is super important.
你们在Slack上与客户、自家公司或Stripe的合作中有没有具体案例？显然，我认为理想架构的答案取决于太多因素。
Are there some examples of the way that you've set up Slack with either clients of yours or your own company or Stripe that maybe is tangible that obviously, I think the answer to, like, what is the ideal architecture that you're getting at is it depends depends on so many different things.
是的。
Yeah.
但有没有大多数公司都能受益的配置案例？比如这样设置Slack或Notion，或尝试这种沟通方式，或这样组织可能对他人有帮助？
But, like, are there examples of, like, most companies would benefit from configuring Slack or Notion or something in this way or experimenting with this channel or organizing in this way that might be useful for others?
我认为在首席架构师的设计中最常被忽视的是我们讨论过的策展层——复盘会议、状态邮件、产品发布邮件这些空间。
So I think the set of channels or spaces that's often overlooked in this master architect's design is the ones about this curation layer that we talked about, the retrospectives, the state emails, the shipped emails.
围绕工作组建立沟通渠道是显而易见的。
It's obvious to organize the communication channels around working groups.
围绕策展层建立渠道则不那么明显。
It's less obvious to set them up around the curation layers.
关于策展层，我主张建立的几个频道是组织或团队更新。
So a few channels that I like to advocate for in terms of the curation layers are org or team updates.
这个频道用于人员动态更新，比如组织架构变化、人员定位、新成员加入等。
So this is the one for people updates about, like, the shape of the organization, where people sit in it, if new people are being added.
我想补充说明一点：当你的老板或合作者突然出现在你身边，而你却完全不知情时，没有什么比这更能让你感到与公司脱节了。
And I'll just, like, add an annotation on this one that nothing makes you feel more out of the loop at your company than somebody showing up next to you and, like, is your boss or, like, a collaborator, and you didn't even know that they were coming.
所以这一点非常重要。
And so this one's super important.
起跑线是另一个重点。
Starting line is another one.
我们已经讨论过项目启动会了。
We already talked about kickoffs.
领导动态摘要。
Leader snippets.
我特别喜欢这个部分。
I really like this one.
就是了解公司领导们最近在忙什么？
Just like, what are the company's leaders up to?
这点至关重要，因为如果你正在做的工作完全不在任何领导的关注范围内，那就值得好好反思了。
And this one's super important because if you're working on stuff that's not showing up on any leader's radar at all, there's a good question to ask yourself there.
Shipt部分，我们讨论过有哪些新功能刚上线。
Shipt, we talked about what new stuff just launched.
现状部分，我们讨论过现有工作流的进展情况。
State of, we talked about how are things going with existing work streams.
有些公司可能会陷入'新事物狂热'，一味追求新项目却从不回顾旧工作。
Some companies can end up having sort of, like, a neophilia where they're obsessed with new things, but they don't revisit old things ever.
所以现状回顾和复盘会也应该归入这个类别。
So having a state of and retrospectives, would put in this category too.
记录与决策事项，供人们查阅相关会议或见解的场所。
Notes and decisions, places for people to scan about relevant meetings or insights.
我确实认为这里存在一个正向反馈循环，当你自问，嘿。
And I do think there's a positive feedback loop here where asking yourself, like, hey.
我的工作中哪些部分可能引起跨部门同事的兴趣？这能强化全局思维和互助精神。
What parts of my work might my cross functional counterparts be interested in reinforces this, like, global thinking and helping each other out?
职位空缺，非常简单明了。
Job openings, super easy.
招聘时很难看清哪些新职位正在开放。
Recruiting is hard to see what new roles are opening.
还有个有点傻的——董事会幻灯片回顾。
And kind of a silly one, but board slide review.
我特别喜欢公司这么做。
I really like when companies do this.
他们会分享——有时是经过脱敏处理的版本（这完全没问题）——把向董事会汇报的内容同步给员工，帮助大家提升认知，通过原始材料（而非摘要）理解公司讨论的内容。
They'll share and sometimes there's a a redacted version of it, which is totally fine, but just sharing what you share with the board to this point of just helping people level up, help them understand what the company's talking about with the raw artifacts, not, like, some summary in all hand, but, like, the raw actual thing you're gonna present.
我想这引出了一个有趣的话题，也与你做过的咨询工作高度相关。
I guess this brings us into an interesting topic and really relevant to some of the consulting work that you've done.
但如果你是一家30或50人的公司，读过你的一些想法后想朝你描述的方向转型，该从何入手？
But if you're a 30 or 50 person company and you're listing or have read some of your ideas and you wanna shift your company in the direction that you're describing, where do you begin?
或者说如何启动？你认为实现这个目标需要哪些步骤？
Or how do you get started, and how do you think about kind of the steps to get from here to there?
嗯。
Yeah.
我认为这件事有一个相当明确的方案。
I do think there's a pretty clear formula for this.
所以我希望你能尝试一下，并告诉我它对你是否有效，以及如果你遇到任何阻碍，哪些地方行不通。
So I hope you will try it, and tell me how it works for you and what doesn't if you're blocked on anything.
但我的感觉是，如果你建立了这个渠道，人们就会来发帖。
But my sense on this is if you build the channel, they will come and post.
所以如果公司领导说，嘿。
So if company leader says, hey.
我们现在要开通这个回顾频道。
We are now opening up this retrospectives channel.
我希望我们公司能更多反思当前的工作进展。
I want our company to be more reflective about how things are going.
这里是发布你工作成果的地方。
Here is a place to post your work.
仅仅创建这个频道就为人们提供了发帖的空间。
And just creating that channel create that space for people to post.
然后要非常明确地告诉他们如何利用这些渠道。
Then be super prescriptive about how to lean on them.
那么你希望看到哪些工作的回顾？
So what kind of work do you want retrospectives on?
模板是什么样的？
What's the template for that?
你希望人们多久发布一次？
How often do you want people to post?
然后这两个关键要素很容易被忽视，但我认为极其重要：当你启动那个频道时，要用优质内容作为种子。
And then these two critical components that are really easy to overlook but I think are super important is when you launch that channel, seed it with really good content.
所以在开放频道之前，先联系组织中一些你认为值得进行回顾的工作流负责人。
So before you open up that channel, tap a few people around the org with work streams that you think deserve retrospectives.
帮助他们为组织其他成员产出优秀范例。
Help them produce really good examples for the rest of the org.
一旦开放频道，就让这些人立即发布内容。
And as soon as you open that channel, have these folks post.
这样就能避免'空货架'问题——频道开放后空空如也或长期沉寂，同时从一开始就树立良好行为典范。
That way, there's you don't get this empty shelf problem where you open the channel and there's nothing there or it's crickets for a while, and you're modeling good behavior right off the bat.
接着，作为公司领导者要大力推广这些帖子。
And then, you know, whoop up those posts as the company leader.
如果你在关注某些事，公司其他人就会意识到：'嘿...'
If you are paying attention to something, other people at the company are realizing, hey.
这是让领导者看到这件事的途径。
This is a way to get leader eyes on this thing.
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所以他们也会效仿。
So they will do that too.
另一个常被忽视的策略是任命——我喜欢称之为'护林员'或'频道护林员'——负责维护标准的人。
And then the next overlooked tactic is to appoint I like calling these, like, rangers, channel rangers, who's in charge of upholding the standards.
他们要在公司各处提醒大家：'嘿...'
So going around to the company and being like, hey.
这个可能很适合做回顾案例。
This might be a good candidate for a retrospective.
或者当内容发布后，能够进行编辑或分享反馈，比如哪些部分有效、哪些无效，甚至成为人们在发布前咨询的对象以确保质量达标。
Or when something is posted, being able to sort of edit or share feedback about, like, what's working and what's not, or even being a person that people come to before posting to make sure that the quality is up to snuff.
你会从单个工件、单份文档和单一渠道开始，先确保其成功运作，然后再逐步添加更多吗？
Would you start with, like, a single artifact and a single document and channel and to make that successful and then add another one and another one?
如果最终目标是像Stripe那样运作，那么实现路径是什么？
Or what's the path into if the end state is the way that Stripe operates?
而初始状态是，我们公司目前并没有太多书面记录和文档工作。
And the starting state is, like, there's not that much writing and documentation going on in our company.
从起点到终点的路径是什么？
What's the path to get from one point to the other?
我认为实际上就像对待产品一样，先让少数人开始使用它。
I think actually just like, kind of like you would a product, just get a few people using it.
所以我会从'我想了解哪些方面更多'这个问题入手。
So I would start with the place of what do I wanna hear more about.
我一直采用回顾会议的方式，因为我知道企业需要逐渐增强对自身系统和流程的反思能力，这是自我学习和了解现状的好方法。
So I keep using retrospectives because I know that companies like sort of becoming more reflective about their own systems and processes, and that's a great way to kind of learn from yourself and what's going on.
但还有其他切入点。
But there's other places to start.
比如，两个团队在做同一件事，而我们并不总是能注意到。
Like, two teams are working on the same thing, and we don't notice all the time.
让我们创建一个项目启动频道吧。
Let's start a kickoff's channel.
然后先找几个人为这个频道撰写内容。
And then just getting a few people to write for those.
再次强调，作为公司领导者，你处于特权地位，可以随时以任何方式要求工作。
And, again, as company leader, you're in a privileged position to be able to ask for work whenever you want it in whatever kind of way that you want it in.
所以建立那些模板，亲自请人们在这些渠道发布内容，然后推动它运转起来。
So setting up those templates, personally asking people to post to these channels, and then just getting it going.
并非所有尝试都会成功，但那些成功的会产生非常大的影响。
And not everything will stick, but the stuff that does can make a really big impact.
这套理念如何映射到你招聘的人选上？
How does this set of ideas map to who you hire?
你认为擅长这方面是完全可以学习的，还是说你会根据候选人的写作水平来评估他们？
And do you think getting good at this is something that's incredibly learnable, or you kind of think about hiring people and you evaluate them based, in this case, how excellent their writing is?
我相信任何人都能擅长任何事情。
I believe anyone can get good at anything.
真的。
I really do.
我想我们都听说过像WordPress这样的公司的故事。
I think we've all heard the stories about companies like WordPress.
我记得他们甚至完全采用异步面试。
I think they even interview completely asynchronously.
比如，他们会不经过任何同步会议就雇佣一个人，这个说法可能需要核实。
Like, they'll hire someone without even a single even a single synchronous meeting, and we should do a fact check on that.
但我认为这是真的。
But I I think that's true.
但我认为人们可以擅长写作，特别是当他们处于一个写作文化浓厚、有大量优秀作品可读的环境中时。
But I think people can get good at writing, especially if they're in a culture of writing where there's a bunch of good writing to be read.
我喜欢的另一个机制，有时也会亲自帮公司实施，就是所谓的‘红笔批改’。
And then another mechanism that I like and I help companies with sometimes myself is to just do this thing we call red penning.
所以如果你有文稿，只需找几个人看看，他们会帮你编辑。
So if you've got writing, just bring it to a few folks, and they'll help you edit.
很容易就能发现或指定你们公司的优秀写手担任这个角色，而且可以大张旗鼓地宣传。
And it's pretty easy to just spot or appoint your your great writers to this role, and you can make a big stink about it to the company.
比如，嘿。
Like, hey.
这些是公司的‘红笔’批改员。
These are the company's red pens.
就像你们可能会做安全审查或发布审查那样。
Like, you sort of might do a security review or a launch review or something.
你也可以对内部或外部文档进行写作审查。
You can also do a writing review for internal or external docs.
所以我喜欢组建这样的‘红笔’小组。
So I like having this group of red pens.
我曾与一家公司合作，他们让所有‘红笔’成员在Slack名字里加上铅笔表情，这样大家都知道他们是谁。
I worked with one company who they they had everyone who was the red pen put the pencil emoji in their in their Slack name, so everyone knew who they were.
这很酷。
That's cool.
在你看来，优秀的面试流程中写作能力如何体现？
How does writing express itself in what you think good interview processes look like?
通过人们的邮件往来就能看出很多门道。
You can tell a lot just by the way people email.
这是第一步。
That's a first step.
而且，是的，看某人写一份关于某事的备忘录可能会很有趣。
And, yeah, it could be interesting to see someone write up a memo on something.
我要说的是，它甚至不必与工作相关。
And I'll say that it doesn't even have to be about a work related thing.
可以是关于任何事情的。
It could be about anything.
我实际上在公司里举办过一个名为'写一份我十分关心的备忘录'的研讨会，我们会逐步引导写作过程，让大家写下自己真正关心的事情。
There's a workshop I actually do with companies called writing an I care a lot memo, and we walk through the writing process to just write about something you care about.
通常，这源于某人对某些细节的挑剔，或是他们在工作中注意到的某个机会。
Oftentimes, this comes from, like, something someone's persnickety about or an opportunity they notice at work.
然后我们就此起草备忘录。
And then we just draft the memo on that.
总之，我非常喜欢从你工作内外真正关心的事情入手，尝试突出其优点，因为好的写作源于真情实感。
So, anyway, I love I love starting with just, like, a thing you care a lot about inside or outside of work and trying to hit some pros with that because good writing comes from feeling.
长久以来令我着迷的一点是，我们在第一轮所做的许多不同工作都涉及帮助开源人们关于公司建设各个方面的想法。
One of the things I've I've been long fascinated by is so many of the different things we do at first round involve helping kind of open source ideas that people have, mainly about different facets of company building.
我发现一个有趣的现象：在许多情况下，一个人职位越高，他们在会议上、小组讨论中传达的内容就越缺乏趣味性、实用性和价值，而且他们的传达与听众想知道的往往存在脱节。
I found it interesting that, like, in many cases, the more, quote, senior someone is, the less interesting and practical and useful the things that they communicate at a conference, on a panel, and how there's often a disconnect between what they're communicating and what, in this case, the audience wants to know.
我认为部分原因是，职位越高的人越觉得自己应该传达宏大、有趣、具有远见的内容。
And part of it, I think, is that the more senior you get, you feel like you should be communicating big, interesting, visionary type things.
例如，去参加会议时，解释你如何主持周一早会感觉有失身份，所以你需要说些聪明绝顶的话。
And for example, going to a conference or something and explaining the way you run your Monday morning staff meeting feels like very beneath you, and so you need to say something smart and brilliant.
我对此思考了很多。
I have thought about that a lot.
是啊。
Yeah.
我是说，首先，关于为什么会有会议演讲这个问题，我有很多想法。
I mean, one, have a lot of thoughts about why are conference talks?
为什么它们总是那么无聊呢？
Why are they so boring or something?
而且我喜欢你关于为什么那些大人物会想要分享重要观点的想法。
And I like your ideas why someone who's big and important might wanna share a big important idea or something.
我在这些工作坊中一直强调的一个写作原则是：摘要往往很无聊，因为它太显而易见了。
And one principle of writing that I try to stress in these workshops that I offer is the summary is often pretty boring because it's obvious.
更有趣的部分在于那些边缘观点。
And the more interesting piece is the edge.
但人们总忍不住从摘要开始，因为这似乎是最有帮助的切入点。
But it's tempting to start with the summary because it seems like the most helpful place to start.
但实际上，最有趣的是那些边缘部分。
But actually, the most interesting thing is the piece on the edge.
所以关键在于，你能多快触及到那些边缘观点？
So it's like, how quickly can you get to the edge idea?
这是其中一个想法。
That's one thought.
最近和某领域专家交流时，我想到的另一个观点是：他们感觉离初学者很遥远，不知道该如何判断初学者掌握的程度。
Another thought I had when talking to an expert on something recently about how they communicate to beginners is they feel far away from the beginner, and they don't know how to think about how much the beginner knows.
或许一个例子是，当我看到一个孩子时，我完全分不清他们是4岁还是10岁。
So maybe one example of this is I feel like when I see a child, I have no idea if they're, like, four years old or 10 years old.
我接触的孩子不够多，所以分辨不出差异。
I don't see enough children to know the difference or something.
专家在面对初学者时可能也是这样。
And maybe experts are like this in how they relate to beginners.
很难判断初学者会知道什么。
It's hard to tell what a beginner would know.
所以你会无意中居高临下地对人说话，或者陈述一些你不知道对他们来说显而易见的事情。
So you kind of talk down to people by accident or state things that you don't know are obvious to them too.
那么我想这归根结底还是那个古老的理念：了解你的受众。
And so then I guess it comes down to sort of the age old idea of knowing your audience.
我想是的。
I think so.
或者只是要有信心相信他们能理解。
Or just having confidence that they will get it.
你知道，Stripe在这方面有个原则。
You know, Stripe had a principle around this.
我们称之为'向上沟通'而非'向下沟通'。
We called it talking up instead of talking down.
比如，要假设人们能理解复杂概念。
Like, assume people will get the complicated concepts.
如果他们不懂某个词，他们会自己去查。
If they don't know a word, they'll just look it up.
这没什么大不了的。
It's not a big deal.
我们都知道怎么搜索。
We all know how to use a search.
所以要相信你的听众能理解你那些宏大复杂的想法。
So just having confidence that your audience can rise to the occasion of your big, complicated ideas.
也许最后这部分是我喜欢的一篇文章。
And maybe the last part of this is is there's this essay I love.
我想它叫《现实拥有惊人的细节量》。
I think it's called Reality Has a Surprising Amount of Detail.
它太棒了。
It's the best.
我已经把它推荐给几十个人了。
I have given this to dozens of people.
多年前一个朋友分享给我的。
A friend of mine shared it with me many years ago.
是啊。
Yeah.
它之所以这么好，是因为它反映了当你深入研究任何事物时都会发现——那里有太多东西了。
It's so good because it reflects this thing that you know when you're deep on anything, which is there's so much there.
有太多事情在发生。
There's so much happening.
在Stripe，我们用松节油来比喻这种现象，讨论一英寸层面发生的事情。
And at Stripe, we talked about this in terms of kind of turpentine, sort of what's going on at the one inch level.
这句话出自一个观点：当评论家们聚在一起讨论艺术时，他们谈论的是线条与形态。
And this comes from a quote when artists when critics get together to talk about art, they talk about line and form.
而当艺术家们聚在一起讨论艺术时，他们谈论的是
And when artists get together to talk about art, they talk about
谈论松节油吗？
Talk about turpentine?
对。
Yeah.
哪里能买到便宜的松节油。
Where to buy cheap turpentine.
我们真心渴望讨论松节油这类话题。
And we really aspire to talk turpentine.
讨论那些底层正在发生的具体细节，而非高屋建瓴的总结。
Talk about things like that are going down at the low level, not like the high level summary.
那种总结很无聊。
That's boring.
而是关注‘这里实际发生了什么？’
But, like, what's actually going on here?
或许正是这些出人意料的细节部分。
And maybe that's the part that's the surprising amount of detail.
正是这些细节让内容变得精彩，或是让一场演讲出色。
Like, that's what makes something content good, or that's what would make a talk good.
它能带给你惊喜。
It, like, surprises you.
你学到了一些东西。
You learn something.
比如，回到Stripe的运营原则，给我讲了个理查德·费曼在实验室起步的故事。
Like, to go back to the Stripe operating principles, telling me a story about Richard Feynman starting at the lab.
我当时就想，理查德·费曼是谁啊？
I'm like, who is Richard Feynman?
他的实验室又是怎么回事？
Like, what is his lab?
不知道这些感觉有点奇怪。
It was kind of weird not to know it.
所以后来我就去查了答案。
So then I just found out the answers.
还有那个叫泰勒·科恩的家伙又是谁？
Or, like, who's this Tyler Cohen guy?
这些事对我来说都很新鲜。
All these things were sort of new.
我通过阅读学到了一些东西，或许先从那些出人意料的大量细节入手才是正确的方式。
I learned something through reading, and maybe just getting to the surprising amount of detail parts first is, like, the right way to go.
我们经常在创始人语境下讨论这个。
We often talk about in in the context of founders.
有些创始人是简化者（我认为这在所有角色中都存在），也有些创始人是复杂化者。
There are some founders, and I think this exists for for basically every role, that are simplifiers, and there's some founders who are complexifiers.
那些复杂化者，这招真的管用吗？
Does the complexifiers, does that ever work?
非常罕见。
Very rarely.
我有点好奇人们为什么会那样行事。
And I would kind of wonder why people behave in that way.
我认为一个经典观点是：如果你无法简化，就说明你并未真正理解这件事。
I think one take would be the classic idea that if you can't simplify, you don't truly understand the thing.
但我也发现——虽然这显然存在程度差异——这种分界线现象很奇妙。
But I also find and there's obviously gradation of this but it's amazing, kind of this dividing line.
在许多情况下，这实际上与话题的复杂程度或技术性无关。
And in so many cases, it actually doesn't have to do with how complicated or technical the topic is.
我们参加的会议中有相当一部分都存在这种情况。
And there's a meaningful portion of meetings that we go into.
比如某人在构建某个东西，随便举个话题。
You know, somebody's building, pick any topic.
很多时候你离开时比进去时更困惑。
And you leave, in a lot of cases, more confused than when you went in.
这也与一个人在该领域工作的时间长短无关，有些被公认的专家也会让你在交流后更加困惑。
It's also disconnected with, like, how long the person has been working in the space, and there are people that would be considered expert, I think, that you still leave and you're more confused.
我不确定。
I don't know.
你想到什么相关的例子吗？
Anything come to mind when you think about that?
是的。
Yeah.
许多想法涌上心头。
A lot comes to mind.
也许首先是这种夸夸其谈，某种程度上像是一种地位游戏，好像在说'我对这事非常了解'。
Maybe the first thing is this talking up thing where it could kind of be a status game to be like, I know so much about this thing.
像你这样的人永远不会理解，因为我的见解如此深刻，我对一切都了如指掌。
Someone like you would never understand it because I'm so deep, and I know everything about it.
而且我能清晰地阐述所有的细节和复杂性。
And I can articulate all the crannies and all the complexities.
像你这样不如我专业的人永远无法理解。
And someone like you who's not an expert like me would never understand.
所以这里有种通过迷惑他人来获得地位的游戏感。
So there's kind of a status game associated with confusing someone or something.
这部分让我深有同感。
That part is resonant to me.
我经常遇到这种情况，总是想说：那你试试看啊。
And I've encountered this a bunch, and I always just wanna say, well, try me.
解释点难的东西。
Explain something hard.
也许我能懂。
Maybe I'll get it.
也许我不懂。
Maybe I won't.
谁知道呢。
I don't know.
但我确实。
But I yeah.
我在事物的另一面感受到了这一点。
I I feel this on the other side of things.
就像一个喜欢遇见专家的好奇者。
It's like a curious person that likes to encounter experts.
我经常感到力不从心，但最优秀的老师、最出色的沟通者，他们确实是简化大师。
I feel I'm in over my head a lot, but the very best teachers, the very best communicators, yeah, they're simplifiers.
他们能让任何人都理解复杂的概念。
They make ideas intelligible to anyone.
是的。
Yeah.
理查德·费曼绝对是这方面的专家。
Richard Feynman, an expert at this for sure.
没错。
Yeah.
我想到了史蒂夫·乔布斯的这个故事。
I'm thinking of this story of Steve Jobs.
据说他办公室外有个霓虹灯标语，引用了某位名人的话（我忘了是谁），内容是'简化、简化、再简化'，而他把前两个'简化'划掉了。
Apparently, he had this, neon sign outside of his office that was quoting I forget who, but the quote is simplify, simplify, simplify, and he had the first two simplifies crossed out.
我特别喜欢这个细节。
I just love that.
即使是最简单的概念也能被进一步简化。
Even the most simple idea can be simplified.
如果有人总是把事情复杂化，你觉得他们该如何摆脱这种状态？
If someone is a complexifier, what do you think they should do if they wanna get out of that space?
更多时间。
More time.
更多提炼的时间。
More time distilling.
多得多的时间。
A lot more time.
是啊。
Yeah.
这句话用在这里可能更贴切。
This is a probably more apt place for the quote.
我本想给你写封简短的信，但时间不够。
I would have written you a shorter letter, but I didn't have the time.
提炼观点真的很难。
It's really hard to distill ideas.
这确实很难，但也非常值得。
It's really hard, and it's really worth it.
这时间花得绝对值得。
It's really worth the time.
通常我认为沟通中的复杂性，确实反映了思维的复杂性。
Often, I think the complexity in communicating, yeah, reflects the complexity in thinking.
多花时间琢磨，你可能会有所领悟。
You'll probably learn by spending time with it.
然后第二部分是反馈。
And then the second piece is feedback.
天啊。
Gosh.
有时候我会觉得，我完全不知道那个人在说什么。
Sometimes I'm like, I have no idea what that person was talking about.
然后他们就那么走开了，好像我们进行了一场很棒的对话似的。
And then they'll just waltz away like we had a great conversation or something.
而且，我认为要坚持找到你想倾诉的对象，并确认对方是否理解了你的意思。
And, yeah, I think sticking with the ears that you wanna fall on and ask if you were understood.
我觉得那些优秀的沟通者经常会要求对方复述一下，以确保双方理解一致。
People who I think are great communicators will often ask, play that back to them or something to make sure that you're on the same page.
不过，确实这很难。
But, yeah, it's hard.
当你思考如何将某些内容提炼成一个新框架或令人难忘的东西时，你认为这只是编辑和研讨的结果，还是有些人天生就更擅长？
When you think about the process of distilling something down to a new framework or something that is memorable, do you think that's also kind of just a function of editing and workshopping, or maybe some people are better than others.
我总是对那些能以独特方式包装想法并让人印象深刻的人感到好奇。
I'm always intrigued by people that come along and they wrap an idea in a very specific way that sticks in people's brains.
举个超级简单的例子，Kim Scott提出了'彻底坦率'这个概念，并用XY坐标轴来阐释。
So, like, a super simple sort of example that comes to mind is that Kim Scott came up with the language radical candor and sort of has this x y plane.
从很多方面来看，这个想法对很多人来说都很直观，但它以某种方式抓住了人们的想象力。
In a lot of ways, it's an idea that's intuitive to a lot of people, but it caught people's imagination in a certain way.
在她出书前我们发表原始文章时，不知道具体数字，大概有数百万人读过。
When we published the original article before she wrote the book, I don't know, something like millions of people read it.
我总是会爱上这类东西。
And I'm I always fall in love with sort of that type of stuff.
我发现很多事物都像这样，在我思考的过程中呈现出阶梯式的变化。
And so much of the things that I find that have, like, these step functions in the way that I think about things are packaged in that way.
那篇《现实是惊人的细节量》的文章对我来说就是个很好的例子。
The essay, Reality is a Surprising Amount of Detail, is a really good example of that for me.
你觉得有些人天生就更擅长这个吗？还是说提炼的仪式感能增加你打包信息并让人记住的几率？
Do you think some people are just better than that than others, or or the ritual of distilling kind of increases the chances that you can take something and package it in a way that sticks in people's brains?
我认为后者是对的。
I think the latter is true.
最好的方法就是不断打磨，像拿着凿子持续雕琢。
The best way is to sort of just, like, keep honing and keep the chisel out and hitting it.
另一个好方法就是和别人交流，看他们如何回应你。
And the other best way is just to play things off people and see what they say back to you.
你知道Stripe使命宣言'提升互联网GDP'的著名故事吗？其实这句话不是公司想出来的。
You know, the famous story of Stripe's mission statement, which is increase the GDP of the Internet, is that the company didn't come up with it.
我记得是某个记者说的。
I think some reporter said it.
我当时就想，哦，好吧。
And I was like, oh, okay.
原来你是这么理解的。
That's what you heard.
不错。
Cool.
如今我正在创建自己的公司，试图了解他人如何看待这个产品，我总是留心他们用怎样酷炫的语言来描述我。
Now that I'm building this company of my own and I'm trying to understand how other people see the product, I'm always listening for cool language about how they describe me.
当有人问起，比如'Consolate是做什么的？'
When someone asks, like, what does Consolate do?
我会转向身边的任何人问道：'它是做什么的？'
I will turn to anybody next to me and say, what does it do?
因为我想听听他们会怎么谈论它。
Because I wanna hear how they talk about it.
有时在我脑海里这件事太复杂了，或者我不确定自己说的话是否有效。
It's so convoluted in my head sometimes, or I don't know if the things I'm saying is landing.
实际上，听听别人的反馈可能是最有效的方式，能看出哪些想法会在他人心中扎根。
Actually, just hearing how things bounce off others is probably the most effective way to see what worms will stick in other people's ears.
所以，是的，我认为你需要在创意迷宫中稍作探索。
So, yeah, I think you gotta play in the idea maze a little bit.
我认为你需要与他人交流想法，感受哪些能引起共鸣，哪些你觉得很酷，哪些是别人反馈说听起来很酷的。
I think you gotta bounce things off others and just get a sense of what sticks, what sounds cool to you, what others report they think sounds cool.
这是个过程。
It's a process.
让我们换个方向，基于之前关于Stripe的一些讨论继续展开。
So let's go in a little bit of a different direction, building on some of the conversations about Stripe.
我想问，你认为文化中有哪些有趣的部分可能没有得到同等关注，或者你研究后觉得是业务成功的潜在因素，也许除了写作和文档之外？
I guess, what do you think are interesting parts of the culture that maybe don't get the same amount of attention or that you studied and feel like were some of the inputs to the success of the business, maybe outside of writing and documentation?
我要说的第一点，可能听起来有点明显或抽象，但就是对文化的专注，背后的意图，认为文化是真实存在的事物，可以用实际语言讨论并引导其发展方向——这对我来说是个重大突破，对公司也极为有益。
The first one I'll say, and maybe this seems obvious or a little meta or something, but it's just the focus on culture, the intention behind it, the idea that culture is a real thing and you can talk about it with real words and you can bend it in a direction was, like, a huge unlock for me and I think really helpful for the company.
许多团队或公司把文化视为某种虚无缥缈的东西，但仅仅是'可以把握并讨论它'这个概念本身就很有帮助。
A lot of teams or companies treat culture as a sort of, like, ethereal thing, but just the very idea that you could grasp it and talk about it was helpful.
因此，写下运营原则、将文化具体化讨论，这真是个重大发现，我认为非常有用。
So writing down the operating principles, talking about the culture as a thing, that was, like, a huge insight and I think helped a lot.
而其中第二点关于'刻意性'的体现，就是真正为文化采取实际行动。
And the the second piece of that is of the intentionality is actually doing something about the culture.
这种文化体现在组织的每个角落——那种精益求精、一丝不苟和持续提升的特质。
So the culture was expressed in every single corner of the organization, this, like, polish and meticulousness and leveling up.
我能想到最好的例子是：在公司发展某个阶段，洗手间里播放的不再是音乐，而是语言学习磁带。
And the best example I could think of for this is that at some point in the company's history, the instead of, like, music playing in the bathrooms, it was language learning tapes.
想想还挺有趣的。
And it's just it's kind of funny to think about.
说实话，我觉得没人能靠每天上厕所的几分钟学会一门语言。
Like, I don't think anyone's gonna learn a language in there however many minutes a day in the bathroom.
但洗手间里的声音也成为组织文化表达的角落——这个想法本身就很有深意。
But just the idea that the sound in the bathroom is, like, a corner of the org to express yourself in is just there's a lot there.
可能有人会觉得这种程度很累人，但这充分体现了公司对细节的极致追求，以及他们愿意为'刻意经营'付出多大努力。
And I think some people can find this exhausting, but I think it said a lot about just how kind of meticulous and corners focused the company would be and how far of a length they would go to be intentional about things.
嗯。
Yeah.
对此有什么想法吗？
Any reaction to that?
我很好奇你是否觉得花时间考虑洗手间背景音乐这种事很荒谬。
I'm curious if you think that sounds like ridiculous to spend any time thinking about the music in the bathroom.
我认为独特的故事对文化有着非凡的影响力。
I think that peculiar stories have just extraordinary impacts on culture.
比如，我们的行为方式、协作方式、雇佣与解雇的标准。
Like, right, the way that we behave, the way we accomplish work together, who gets hired and who gets fired.
这或许正是那些看似微不足道却能作为强化特定行为模式的故事例证。
And maybe that's kind of an example of something that seems trivial but can live as a story that reinforces a specific set of behaviors.
是的。
Yeah.
我也这么认为。
I think so.
这可能与你所说的观点相关——想法如何像模因一样传播。
And maybe this relates to what you're saying about, like, how do ideas carry as they're they become memes.
人们喜欢将其作为神话的一部分来谈论，这能引起共鸣。
You know, people like to talk about them as part of the mythology, and that resonates.
它提供了谈资。
It gives you something to talk about.
这是促使人们践行价值观最有效的方式之一。
And then that is one of the most effective ways to get people to behave in that way and effectively kind of live the value.
关于阐述文化或运营原则的主题，对于那些正在尝试制定行为规范的公司，你有什么新颖建议是大家可能未曾听过的？
Sort of on the theme of articulating culture or operating principles, what advice do you have for companies that are trying to do this maybe that would be fresh or maybe folks haven't heard as they're thinking about the process of codifying how to behave?
没错。
Yeah.
我认为语言与行为之间存在着非常紧密的关联。
I think there's a really strong relationship between language and behavior.
我们一直在讨论的就是，嗯，想法是如何传播或推广的？
And we've been talking all about just, yeah, how do ideas proliferate or promulgate?
建立语言体系是个好方法，而操作原则就像是公司实现目标的最佳机会，通过创建一套能引导行为的语言。
And setting up the language is a great way, and operating principles are, like, the company's best chance to make this happen is to create a set of language that helps guide behavior.
操作原则最酷的地方在于它们能跨越权力界限。
The coolest thing about operating principles is they're meant to cross power lines.
任何人都应该能对其他人说出来，以此作为纠正行为的方式。
Anyone should be able to say it to anybody else as a way to correct behavior.
我认为很多公司容易犯的错误是，他们没有让这些东西变得有趣或吸引人去说。
And I think the thing I see a lot of companies tripping up on is they don't make these things fun or interesting to say.
所以实际上应该专注于，比如这句话的‘刻薄版’——不是‘做困难的事’，而是‘快速行动打破常规’，这样更有趣更吸引人。
So actually focusing on, like, what's the mean y version of this, not do hard things, but move fast and break things, is way more fun and interesting.
那么，比如用网络流行语怎么说这个？或者用‘我们公司的方式’怎么说这个？
So, like, what's the meme way to say this thing, or what's The Us way to say this thing?
Stripe有一条原则叫‘头版测试’，这源自沃伦·巴菲特。
Stripe had one that was front page test, which comes from Warren Buffett.
你知道吗？
You know?
如果我们做了某件事，它会不会登上《纽约时报》的头版？
If if we did something, could it end up on the front page of the New York Times?
这比说‘保持高度诚信’之类的话要有趣得多。
That's more interesting to say than be high integrity or something.
所以，是的，我认为要考虑短语的‘刻薄版’，以及人们在日常工作中可能会使用的语言。
So, yeah, I think thinking about the meanie version of the phrase and what language people might use in the run of work.
当你使用'运营原则'这个术语时，它是否可以与'价值观'这个概念或词汇互换，还是你认为这两者在某些方面有所不同？
When you use the term operating principles, is it interchangeable with the idea or word values, or you think about those two things differently in some way?
我更喜欢'运营原则'这个说法。
I prefer the term operating principles.
关于这点我想说的是，我认为价值观更像是核心本质。
And my rant on this is that I think values feel very kind of core essence.
它们应该是静态、稳定且基础性的信念，而运营原则则需要不断演进。
They're meant to sort of be static and stable and a foundational belief, whereas operating principles are meant to evolve.
这些公司的核心就在于它们不断进化发展，至少我们合作的那些公司都是如此。
And the whole point of these companies is that they are evolving and growing, the ones that we work in at least.
拥有能够随着公司、业务和团队需求变化而调整的原则非常重要。
And having principles that can change as the needs of the company and the business and the team changes is super important.
'快速行动，打破常规'就是个很好的例子。
So move fast and break things is a great example.
这在Facebook或Meta早期非常适用。
Made a lot of sense for Facebook or for Meta in the early days.
但在后期就不那么合适了。
Didn't make as much sense in the later days.
我记得他们后来改成了'在稳定基础设施基础上快速行动'之类的口号。
And I think they actually changed it to move fast with stable infrastructure or something.
但运营原则本身就允许它们进行改变。
But operating principles, it gives permission for them to change.
我经常思考，你知道，有些公司那些流行口号或奇怪的运作方式。
I often wonder, you know, some of these meme y things or the weird ways that companies operate.
你如何区分是他们促成了公司的成功，还是公司在这些因素下依然取得了成功？
How do you disentangle if they enabled the company to be successful or the company was successful in spite of those things?
我也在思考这个连续过程，公司如何成长，因为你会看到初创时期的许多怪异现象随着规模扩大而消失。
And I also think about that in the continuum, how the company grows, because you tend to see a lot of the weirdness in the early days goes away at scale.
典型的例子就是，我们曾没有管理者，谷歌就因此闻名，对吧？
So the classic example would be, well, we have no managers, and Google was famous for this, right?
比如他们曾有一位管理者要直接管理100名下属。
They had you know, an Ang manager that would have a 100 direct reports, for example.
随着公司不断壮大，你会逐渐回归到那些可能自德鲁克时代就存在的管理模式。
And then the company grows and grows, and you kind of converge on these, you know, models that have probably been around since Drucker before.
然后你就会开始说：好吧。
And then you start to say, okay.
就拿谷歌的例子来说，或者Stripe长期不设产品经理也很出名。
Well, take the Google example, or maybe Stripe was famous for no product managers for a very long time, I think.
然后你会想，或许谷歌的成功并非得益于让100名工程师向一位工程师汇报的架构。
And then you're like, maybe Google was successful in spite of having a 100 engineers report to an engineer.
但由于这种模式极具传播性，你会看到其他公司纷纷效仿，而这可能反而阻碍了它们的成功。
But because it also is very meme y, then you see a bunch of other companies sort of adopt that thing that may have actually inhibited the company from being successful.
是啊。
Yeah.
我认为确实存在文化市场契合度这种东西，公司文化需要与业务需求相匹配。
Well, I do think there's such a thing as culture market fit or something where the company or the culture sort of has to match what the needs of the business are.
比如Stripe精益求精的文化就非常适合一家金融基础设施公司。
Like, Stripe's culture of meticulousness was appropriate for a financial infrastructure company.
我们必须精确到小数点后两位。
We have to get everything right to the hundredth decimal place.
既然我们在产品中这么做，那在博客上也该如此，这样整个公司就能养成这种习惯。
And if we're gonna do that in the product, we might as well do that on the blog too so that the whole company has the whole habit of that.
Figma没有太多这种文化，因为对Figma来说，重点在于工作进展中、打开文件并展示混乱的过程。
Figma didn't have as much of this culture because it made sense for Figma because it was all about work in progress and opening up your files and showing the mess.
所以在某些方面，过分讲究的文化反而显得不那么相关或真实。
So a culture of meticulousness in some ways was sort of less relevant or less true.
因此我认为文化并不总是能从一个地方照搬到另一个地方。
So I don't think culture is always best imported from place to place.
但我确实觉得这些故事可以很有力量。
And I do think these stories can be pretty powerful.
回到写作的话题，任何优秀的作家都知道要忍痛删改心爱的段落。
But to take it back to the writing stuff again, any great writer knows you gotta kill your darlings.
今天有效的方法明天可能就不灵了，愿意舍弃这些机制虽然困难但很重要。
The stuff that works one day might not work the next, and being willing to get rid of those mechanisms is hard but important.
公司通常不太擅长这点，但善于自省的公司能做到。
Companies aren't often very good at that, but the self reflective ones are.
我的足球教练常说这句话。
My soccer coach would always say this.
我们之所以优秀，是与此无关还是正因为如此？
Are you are we good in spite of this or because of it?
我觉得这是个值得思考的好问题。
And I think it's a good question to ask.
换个角度宏观来看，你会如何比较Stripe和Figma的企业文化？
Taking a little bit of a turn when you zoom out, how would you compare the cultures of Stripe and Figma?
这两家都是过去十年间创建的杰出企业，科林，你都有过较为深入的研究。
Both are really wonderful businesses that have been created, Collin, in the last decade that you got to study relatively closely.
你认为它们在哪些方面非常相似？
In what ways would you say they're quite similar?
而在哪些方面你会觉得它们截然相反或差异显著？
And in what ways would you say they're, like, diametrically opposed or quite different?
这正是启动整个Kool Aid工厂项目的原因——哇，原来打造卓越企业有这么多不同的路径。
This is actually what got the whole Kool Aid factory project started, which is that, wow, there's so many ways to build an amazing company.
实现目标的方式真的多种多样。
There's just so many different ways to do it.
部分因素取决于领导者，部分取决于产品、团队等其他要素，但很多模式都能成功。
And a little bit of that is has to do with the leaders and a little bit of that has to do with the product and the team and all this other stuff, but a lot can work.
那么这两家公司有哪些不为人知的共同特质？
So what do I think the companies had in common that would be non obvious?
或许就是——员工都怀有极强的热忱。
Maybe it's just, like, people that really cared a lot.
真的非常投入。
Just really cared.
就是想把事情做到极致。
Just wanted to do a great job.
或者说对成功的执着追求，这是Figma和Stripe共有的特质。
Or just obsessed with making it work, that was the quality of both places at at both Figma and Stripe.
如果你随便和谁坐在午餐室里，都会滔滔不绝地聊工作上的事，这其实很棒。
If you were to just sit at the lunchroom with anyone, you would just go on and on and on about what's going on at the at work, which is awesome.
人们对事物的思考非常深入。
People are really deep on stuff.
他们确实深有感触。
They really felt it.
那么不同之处在哪里？
And what was different?
Figma的设计风格非常俏皮。
Figma was very silly.
它既古怪又疯狂，色彩鲜艳且大胆。
It was zany and wacky and colorful and bold.
而Stripe则相当认真严肃。
And Stripe is pretty earnest, serious.
我认为这很大程度上与他们开发的产品类型有关，但这部分感觉确实很不一样。
And, again, I think this has a lot to do with the kinds of products they are building, but that part felt really different.
两者各有优点。
Both have their own virtues.
你提到的一个特别有趣的观点是：公司里有一群特别用心的人。
One thing you said is super interesting is this idea of there's just a bunch of people at the company that care a lot.
公司在早期阶段，在几十人或前几百名员工时，该如何培养这种高浓度的用心文化？
What does a company do in the early days, in the dozens, in the first few 100 employees to create a lot of care density?
写作并不是唯一的表达方式，或许只是为人们创造能深入钻研的工作环境。
Writing is not the only way to express oneself in this, but maybe it's just creating places for people to do that sort of deep dive flavor of work.
你知道吗，我注意到很多公司正在从纯手写演示转向更倾向于产品演示和技术讲解这类形式。
You know, I've noticed a lot of companies moving away from the all hand style presentation and more towards, like, the demo and tech talk y thing.
也许这与那种简单直接的风格有关，就是打个招呼那种。
And maybe this has to do with that where it's just, hey.
来给我们展示下你在做什么。
Come and show us what you do.
比如，你现在正在钻研什么？
Like, what are you getting into right now?
把这种热情展现出来，让它可见，并成为获得组织认可的方式——就是当你深入研究某件事时把它展示出来。
And making that exciting and visible and a way to get org points is just, like, show when you're deep on something.
如果你能就某个话题连续讲二十分钟，我觉得你肯定对它充满热情。
If you can talk for twenty minutes about something nonstop, I think you probably care a lot about it.
所以公司会说，嘿。
So the company is saying, hey.
来就这个话题连续讲二十分钟，或者组织个午餐学习会。
Come and talk about this thing for twenty minutes nonstop or, like, host a lunch and learn on this.
做个技术分享。
Do a tech talk on it.
写份文档，我们会——我作为公司领导会把它转发给全公司，就像在说'这就是优秀工作的范例'。
Write a doc, and we're all gonna I'm gonna refoward it to the company as the company leader and be like, this is an example of amazing stuff.
或许这只是为工作细节和那些奇特角落留出空间。
Maybe it's just allowing space for the details and the weird corners and crannies of the work.
就像我们之前说的，很多跨职能工作或高层级内容往往走向概括性方向——那个不涉及太多细节的层面，而现在则是让组织边缘的人也能站在公司舞台上展示真正深入的内容。
Whereas, like we were saying before, a lot of sort of the cross functional stuff often or, like, the high level stuff often goes to the summary place, the high level place, the not too much detail place, but instead allowing people in the corners of the organizations room on the company stage for the really deep stuff.
也许这就是所谓的'高谈阔论'——即便不是所有人都能理解其中的数学原理或专业术语也没关系，只要持续不断地深入探讨，我们就会认真倾听。
And maybe this is where the talking up comes to is like, it's okay if not everyone will understand the math that went into it or not everyone will know all the technical terms, but just, like, wax and wax and wax and go on about it, and we're gonna listen.
这让我开始思考公司内部叙事和仪式的作用，以及它们与你吸引和雇佣的人才之间的关系？
I guess it kinda makes me think about the role of narrative and rituals inside of a company relative to the people that you attract and hire?
这两者如何相互契合？
And how do those two things fit together?
我一直在思考一个问题：用泰勒的话说，使命是被高估还是低估了？
One thing that I've been thinking a lot about is, are missions in Tyler parlance overrated or underrated?
我认为'关怀'是个非常有趣的话题，但大多数人并未真正探讨过它。
I think care is a really interesting topic, and most people don't really explore it.
我只是觉得，如果有一群人对你们正在做的事情、对公司或客户倾注更多关怀，那种潜力简直不可估量。
I just think if you have a bunch of people that care more about the thing that you're doing or the company or the customer or whatever, the upside there is kind of unbelievable.
我在想，如果你观察Stripe最初的250名员工，确实很多人都喜欢'提升互联网GDP'这个概念，但可能还有各种其他因素让他们真正投入，甚至愿意推销各种东西。
And I wonder if people maybe if you look at the first 250 people at Stripe, a lot of people, yeah, they like the idea of increasing GDP of the Internet, but maybe there's all sorts of other stuff going on that got them to care that they could be selling all sorts of stuff.
关于Stripe有个反直觉的现象：如何让一群聪明人真正关心支付业务？
An under disgusting about Stripe is how do you get people to care about payments, especially a bunch of smart people?
帕特里克对此有个绝妙的说法。
And Patrick has a good shtick about this.
我记得基思在采访他时，他说最初并不寻找对支付充满热情的人——毕竟谁会天生就对支付业务如此热衷？而是被那些棘手的技术难题所吸引。
I think maybe Keith and her boy is interviewing him, and he says that they didn't look for people with passion about payments out of the gates because who comes out the womb caring about payments this much, but instead was sort of drawn to a hard technical problem.
帕特里克谈到自己是如何逐渐爱上支付业务的，但他最初并非对此感兴趣。
And Patrick just says talks about sort of falling in love with payments over time for this reason, but he didn't come to it interested in payments.
就像，他是通过另一种途径偶然进入这个领域的。
Like, he backed into it through another way.
为一家拥有引人注目的使命宣言的公司工作，这是招聘的好方法，但当你只是对着笔记本电脑敲敲打打时，很容易忘记这个使命宣言。
And working for a company that has a compelling mission statement, that's a good way to recruit, but it's easy to forget about the mission statement when you're just clickety clocking on your laptop.
你知道吗？
You know?
它并不总是处于最前沿。
It doesn't it's not always at the forefront.
所以我不确定对特定使命的热情是否是关键因素。
So I don't know if passionate about the specific mission is the vector.
但是，是的，我认为这种关心的能力，这里面有些道理。
But, yeah, I think this, like, this capacity to care, there's something there.
而且根据我的经验，关心是具有传染性的。
And I also have a sense or in my experience, caring is contagious.
如果他们关心生活中的某个领域，他们往往也会关心其他领域。
If they care about things in one area of their life, they're prone to caring about things in others.
所以那些...是的。
So people who yeah.
我想这可以形容为眼中闪烁的光芒之类的。
I guess it's described as, like, a twinkle in the eye or something.
如果一个人能在某处找到热情，很可能也能在其他地方找到。
If someone can get it one place, they can probably get it somewhere else.
所以这或许是个不错的切入点。
So maybe that's a good way in.
就像问：你对什么事情充满热忱？
Just like, what do you care a whole heap about?
我强烈认同关爱具有传染性，冷漠同样会传染，而这里是个美好的结束点。
I strongly agree with the caring is contagious, and lack of caring is contagious, and a lovely place to end.
非常感谢您参与本次
Thanks so much for joining us in this
漫谈式的对话。
Sprawling conversation.
漫谈且随性的对话。
Sprawling and wandering conversation.
希望其中有些小建议对他人有所帮助，不过这次交流确实非常愉快。
Hopefully, were some little tidbits that might be useful to others, but this was really fun.
谢谢你，布雷特。
Thank you, Brett.
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