阿里尔·伊曼纽尔：UFC、WWE、好莱坞与现场娱乐的未来

各位，我是挪威主权财富基金的CEO尼古拉·阿尔坦根。今天我很荣幸能与超级经纪人兼媒体大亨阿里尔·伊曼纽尔同台。他曾代理过好莱坞许多顶级明星，如今是UFC和WWE等公司的所有者。阿里，热烈欢迎你。

Everyone, I'm Nikol Artangen, the CEO of the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund. Today, I'm in really good company with super agent and media mogul Ariel Emanuel. He's represented some of the biggest names in Hollywood and is now the owner of companies such as UFC and WWE. Ari, warm welcome.

嗨，阿里。最近怎么样？你开始做这行多久了？为什么选择这行？

Hi, Ari. How are you doing? So how long has this been since you started doing this and why?

大概三年吧。

It's like three years.

你以为这是你采访我？现在是我要采访你。

You think it's gonna be an interview you to me. I'm gonna interview you.

咱们走着瞧。阿里，我在做调研时对你涉猎的广泛程度感到震惊。简单说说，你具体是做什么的？

Let's see how it goes. Ari, when I was researching this, I was just astonished about how many things you do. So just in brief, what do you do?

你知道，我大约三十年前入行时是代理编剧、导演和演员的。后来我对娱乐行业发展趋势有了预见，先是与威廉莫里斯经纪公司'合并'，然后收购了IMG。我半生在做代理，半生在做收购。就像...虽然你们是全球最大投资机构之一，但当我们身处娱乐代理业务时——娱乐涵盖从播客到体育赛事、音乐、编剧、导演等所有领域——我们发现可以通过将代理对象转化为资产来创造更大价值。因为我们的全球网络能让本土公司实现国际化增值。在为IMG谈判国际体育转播权时，我们注入了内容资产，最终以十亿美元出售了这项业务。

You know, I started out almost over thirty years ago representing writers, writer, director, actors, then had a vision for where entertainment was going, started, you know, merged quote unquote with William Morris, and then bought IMG, and then realized half my life was representation, half my life was ownership. Almost like, I mean, I don't know what you're I know that you're one of the largest investors in the world of every single country and every single company. But we realized when we were in the representation business of entertainment, and entertainment takes from podcasts to owning sports, events, music, writer, direct, everything, we could look at companies that we represented or people or things, and then we could move them, the thought process, to an ownership position because we could extract greater value because we were global. If a company was localized but had a global possibility, we could extract a great deal of value. And as we're negotiating deals between IMG negotiating all sports rights on an international basis, we added content to that and then we sold that business for a billion dollars.

我们有个很大的运作舞台。于是开始把现场赛事、体育项目等转化为资产。我们代理过WWE、UFC、骑牛大赛，意识到如果深度参与，就能包办转播协议和营销合作，通过场地费等其他手段获取更多价值。收购时人们觉得我们疯了，但事实证明布局正确。我们经常在实战中调整策略。

We had a very big playing field. And so we just started moving stuff to ownership from live events to sports. So we represented the WWE, we represented UFC, we represented bull riding, and we realized, you know, if we got involved, we could make all the broadcast deals, we could do all the, you know, marketing deals, and then we could extract more value with site fees and all the other tricks that we have. And so we bought them and people thought at the time we were crazy with IMG, and then they thought we were crazy with the OC and it turned out we made the right position, and then we merged it. We just are on the field a lot, so we get to kind of move things around.

那么阿里，我们要一件件梳理这些事情，不过让我们先从最初的努力开始吧。你最初是在创意艺术家经纪公司起步的，你是怎么得到这份工作的？我猜你给他们打了很多次陌生电话吧。

So Ari, we're going to kind of unpack one thing after the other here, but let's let's kick off at the beginning with the endeavor. So you started in creative artist agency, and how did you get the job? You I I gather you cold called them quite a lot of times.

那还要早得多得多。我最初在纽约跟着一个剧院行业的人，名叫罗比·兰斯。六个月后我大概明白了这个行业。那时我刚从欧洲回来，之前一直在那边游荡。是我父亲叫我回来的。

Way, way, way before that. I started in New York with a with a kind of guy in the theater business by the name of Robbie Lance. After six months I realized kind of the business. I had just moved back from Europe where I had been playing around. My father told me to come back.

他停掉了我的银行账户。于是我进了邮件收发室工作，每英里赚15美分。我就是这样谋生的，在收发室投递包裹。后来成为经纪人，接着去了这家叫Intertalent的小型精品公司，它是从几家大公司分拆出来的。大概三年后公司被出售，然后就被拆分了。

He was cutting off my bank account. And I went into the mailroom and I was making 15¢ a mile. That's how I made my living, dropping in the mailroom, dropping packages off. Became an agent and then I went to this company, Intertalent, which was a small boutique that had started as a spinoff of some of the big guys. After three years, I think it was, sold, they broke the company up.

我去了ICM公司，后来被CA收购了。然后发生了件疯狂的事——我被车撞了。那时我意识到人生不是彩排，不能干等着问题自己解决。于是在经历了18个月的手术和康复后，我决定自立门户放手一搏。1995年3月29日我生日那天，我们创立了这家叫奋进（Endeavor）的公司。

I went to this company called ICM, which recently CA bought. And a crazy thing happened, I got hit by a car. And I realized life was not a dress rehearsal, you know, you can't just sit around and think it's gonna figure itself out. So I just, after eighteen months of surgery, rehab surgery, I said, I wanna, you know, be on my own and go for it. And so we started this company called Endeavor in 1995 on my birthday, March 29.

你的第一个客户是谁？

Who was your first client?

应该是艾米·利特曼和格雷格·丹尼尔斯中的一个，还有其他一些人。但为什么

It's between Amy Littman, I think it was Amy Lippman and Greg Daniels. And then there was a bunch of others. But those Why

他们会选择你？

did they choose you?

我不认为他们希望我不断打电话逼迫他们签约，他们只是妥协了。

I don't think they wanted me to keep on calling them to beat them up to sign with me, they just gave in.

你最多给客户打过多少次电话才促成合作？

What's the most times you call the client to get them on board?

让他们和我签约？我想可能是很久以前的拉里·戴维吧。我不确定。当时穷追不舍，现在想想真觉得对他很抱歉。

To get them to sign with me? I think it was probably Larry David way back in the day. I don't know. Was unrelenting. I felt really bad for him.

我好像当时还跟他说过，我说：我为你感到难过。接下来会这样发展——我这人不容易觉得尴尬。

And I kind of said it to him, I think. I said, I feel bad for you. Here's what's going to happen. I don't embarrass easily.

所以这...冷电话的真正关键到底是什么？

So it What's doesn't really the key to cold calling?

你看，就像我发现UFC时坚信能创造更多价值那样。如果我觉得某个客户没被妥善对待，我就会死磕这个问题直到他们醒悟——因为我坚信他们最终会明白我是对的。我通常以'你满意吗？'开启对话，分析出痛点后就持续猛攻。

You know, if I believe, like when I saw the UFC, that there was more value that could be created. If I'm looking at a client that I don't think is being handled properly, I will just pound on that issue until they realize, because eventually they're going to realize I'm right, I believe. I start the conversation usually with something like, are you happy? And then, and I know where I believe after analyzing where the trigger points are. And then I just pound away.

经纪人为客户提供哪些服务？

What does an agent do for a client?

当今时代，由于发行渠道众多且客户需求各异，每个客户都各不相同。音乐客户与演员不同，演员又与导演不同。但如果你谈论的是电视领域的编剧创作者，你需要应对多方参与者，指导他们购买、撰写或自主创作内容，然后将这些打包推向市场。过去通常是制片厂负责内容创作。

Well, this day and age, because there's so much distribution and there's depending on the client, like all clients are different. Music clients are different than actors. Actors are different than directors. But if you're talking about a writer creator in the television space, you have multiple players going on, how you tell them what properties to buy, to write, or create on their own, and then packaging them together, you're putting together kind of a package to go out to the marketplace. It used to be that the studios would be the composer of the content.

现在这一角色转移到了经纪人身上。我常对这里的人说，作为经纪人，创意比以往任何时候都更重要。因为你必须提供全方位服务。我们通过收购和整合多家公司，试图打造一个全方位服务机构，涵盖授权、营销、图书、演员等所有领域。如今，导演、演员、编剧的项目整合更多是在我们这里完成，而不是索尼、网飞或派拉蒙那些大厂。

It's now moved to the agent. And I always say to the people here, ideas matter more than ever right now as an agent. Because you have to be full service. And what we've attempted to do by all the companies we've bought and put together is be a full service agency, whether it be licensing, marketing, books, all actors. How you put things together for a director, an actor, a writer happens inside our doors now more than it does at the Sony's, at the Netflix, at the Paramounts.

如何与客户保持良好的合作关系？

What's the to maintaining a good relationship with a client?

你必须成为他们的合作伙伴，而不仅仅是代表。你要真正成为他们的商业伙伴，考虑全局和各种可能性。你知道的，坏事时有发生，我认为客户需要一个有韧性的经纪人——我希望我们已经传授了这点——能够承受失败，全面思考各种可能性，并组建团队协助思考。我觉得我们在这方面做得不错。

Well, have to just, you have to be, you actually have to be their partner, not the representative. You actually have to be their business partner and think about the world and where the possibilities. And you know, you know it. Bad things happen, you have to have an agent, I believe, that is willing, and I hope we've taught this, to have endurance and take the failures and kind of think through all the different possibilities and bring teams together to help you think through things. I think we've done that here.

虽然并非总是完美，但通常相当不错。我认为这是对所有客户的基本要求，无论是音乐客户、社交媒体客户，还是作家、演员、导演等。

Not always great, but usually pretty good. And I think that's the requirement for whether it be a music client, a social media client, you know, a book, an author, an actor, a director, everything.

你被称为好莱坞最强硬的谈判者之一。你认为这是为什么？

You are known as one of Hollywood's toughest negotiators. Why do think that is?

为什么这么说？嗯，你知道的，我不会因为对方更有权势就轻易让步。我不确定自己是否是最强硬的谈判者，只是对事情有明确立场并会坚持己见。首先我清楚，谈判时不需要把所有筹码都摆上桌面。

I one why is that? Well, I'm just you know, I'm not gonna roll over because somebody thinks, you know, somebody's more powerful or whatever. I'm not sure I'm the toughest negotiator. I just have a point of view on something and I'll stick to my guns. I know when first of all, I don't have to I don't I I think when I negotiate, I don't have to have all the chips off the table.

但我确实认为有这么一条线。在我第一笔交易中，华纳兄弟有位老律师，他告诉我——当时谈判进行到一半，CA的负责人比尔·哈伯让我替他谈判一处房产权益，我就在谈判中途对他说：这不公平。他是华纳兄弟的资深律师，他让我开车去华纳兄弟。我照做了，走进去说：

But I do have to I think there's this line. There was this old lawyer at Warner Brothers in my first deal, and he told me, and I said to him in the middle of the negotiation, the head of CA, Bill Haber, gave me a property to negotiate for him, an underlying right knee. And I told him in the middle of the negotiation, said, this is not fair. And he was the senior lawyer at Warner Brothers, and he told me to drive over to Warner Brothers. And I did, and I walked in and I said, Mr.

斯托尔尼斯先生您好，我是阿里·伊曼纽尔。他说：孩子，公平是我们最终要达到的地方。然后说：离开我的办公室。所以你看，在所有谈判中，我总是对人说：公平是我们的终点。我可能不会完全满意，你也可能不会完全满意，但这就是正确的数字。

Stoleness, hi, I'm Ari Emanuel. And he said, Son, fair is where we end up. And he said, Leave my office. And so, you know, in all these negotiations I just always say to the people, fair is where we're going to end up. I might not be completely happy, you might not be completely happy, but it is the right number.

如果要给听众们上20秒的谈判速成课，你会包括哪些内容？

You if you were to if you were to give the listeners, a twenty second crash course in negotiation, what would you what would you include?

首先要把谈判控制在...你知道的，不要公开谈判。要尊重你的谈判对手。你可以很强硬，但要在私下谈判。每场谈判都不同，没有完全相同的谈判。

One is you've you've gotta keep the negotiation within the you know, you don't go out of the you don't negotiate in public. You respect your negotiator. You're tough and you can't, you know, but you negotiate inside the rooms. You don't kind of and every negotiation is different. There's not one negotiation.

没有

There's not

一种

one

放之四海皆准的谈判原则。有时只有一个买家，你已出局，必须达成交易并收尾。有时有多个买家，你就尽可能拖延以获得最高价。所以必须认清所处的环境和形势。我想大家的做法都一样。

principle to a negotiation. Sometimes there's only one buyer, you've struck out, you have to get a deal done and you close. Sometimes there's multiple buyers and you drag it out as long as you can to get the highest price. So you just have to recognize the environment and the situation you're in. I think everybody does the same thing.

你必须保持诚信，必须信守承诺。无论你在谈判什么，只要你有才华，这就不会是最后一笔交易。所以，你要明白，你的承诺、你与对方的谈判实际上非常重要，因为这种声誉会一直伴随着你。因此，

You you have to be honorable, You have to keep your word. Whatever you're negotiating, it's not your last deal if you're talented. And so you, you know, your word, your negotiation with that person is actually important because that reputation kind of precedes you and follows you. So

你曾说过经纪人就像蟑螂。是的。你这话是什么意思？

You once said that agents are like cockroaches. Yeah. What do you mean by that?

意思是你们杀不死我们。无论人们如何试图绕过经纪人，我们都会在这个行业永远存在。回想我刚入行时，我们只涉足电视行业和一点点电影业务。现在我们涉及Instagram网红、播客，业务范围如此广泛。经纪业务不断适应并转型，成为一个优秀经纪人和代表所需的能力也在变化。你必须懂营销、懂出版、懂授权和商品化。

Meaning you can't kill us. We're gonna be around in this business forever as much as people have tried to disintermediate agents. When I think I started in the business, we were just in the television business and a little bit of motion picture business. Now we're in Instagram people, podcasts, we're in so many different areas, and the agency business has constantly adapted and kind of transformed itself in what is required to be a good agent and representation. You gotta have marketing in there, you gotta have books in there, you gotta have license and merchandising in there.

你必须不断调整自己的技能，整个机构也要不断调整，以便为客户提供最佳服务。我认为很多经纪公司都没能做到这一点，所以他们没能生存下来。而我们做到了，这就是我们蓬勃发展的原因。

And you just constantly are adapting your skillset, the agency at large, to actually perform the best for the clients. And I don't think a lot of agencies have done that. That's why they haven't survived. We have done that. And I think that's why we're thriving.

很多人可能看过《急速入场》这部剧，据我所知它大致是基于UI改编的。这部剧有多真实？

Many would have seen the series Enter Rush, which is loosely based on UI, I believe. How spot on is that?

说来遗憾，在我早期职业生涯中，这部剧真实得令人难过。不过现在我已经温和多了。是的，记得我刚入行时，我们要面对四大经纪公司的竞争，而且当时没有价格差异可以让你脱颖而出，价格都一样。所以，那时的我很不好相处。

In my early days, was sad to say too spot on, but I've mellowed. So yeah, I mean, in the early days of remember when I started the business, you had four no, had yeah, you had four big agencies against us and you weren't there was no price differential that could distinguish you. It was all the same price. So, you know, I was difficult.

好吧，

Well,

是的，我现在友善多了。

yeah. I'm a lot nicer now.

为什么这么说？

Why is that?

你知道，成功之后，我不必再持续战斗。员工们承担了许多过去由我和他人共同完成的重任。确实，不必再应对那些本无需应对的战斗，生活变得轻松了些。而且，我的客户们已达到了某种高度，推动他们的事业发展变得容易得多。我认为——这点你可以直接问买家们——我一直以来都凭自己的声誉和谈判方式立足。

You know, success, I don't have to constantly be fighting battles. The employees are doing a lot of the heavy lifting that I used to do by myself and with others. Yeah, And taking on a lot of the battles that I don't have to take on makes life a little bit easier. And also, my clients have reached a stature that it's a lot easier to move their careers around. And I have I think, and you'll have to just ask the buyers, I've lived by my reputation and how I negotiate.

转到体育话题。2016年你们收购了UFC。这是战略布局还是抓住了一个偶然机遇？当时就是...

Moving on to sports. In 2016, you bought UFC. Yes. Was that a strategic transaction or an opportunistic opportunity that Well, just came

此前我们收购过PBR。我们已经证明自己能在体育领域收购公司并使其重生。我想银湖资本会认同，在考虑此事时，我们代表整个赛事包与电视网进行每项谈判。那时我们负责所有国际体育版权，我们清楚如何在国际上运营UFC并实现其价值。

we had bought before that PBR. We had proven that we could buy a company in the sports area and resurrect it. I think Silver Lake would say, as they thought about it, we negotiate every deal with networks on behalf of packages, etcetera. At that time, we did internationally all the sports rights. We knew how to handle UFC internationally and the value.

我们曾代理UFC，他们已经谈妥了许多转播协议。通过直接拥有并妥善运营，我们能获得90%的价值，而非仅10%。

We represented them, they'd already negotiated a lot of the broadcast deals. By owning it, running it properly, we could get 90% of the value as opposed to 10% of the value.

你认为格斗运动是何时进入主流视野的？

When would you say that when did you say that combat sports got into the mainstream?

嗯，我刚刚在查看数据，思考体育产业的走向，以及我认为的分销模式发展趋势，还有SVOD和AVOD的需求。根据福克斯从RSNs等业务方向来看，我计算得出他们必须拥有这项产品。我没想到他们会出售，没想到鲁伯特会卖掉，但我确实意识到流媒体市场的发展方向。体育一直是这一领域的巨大驱动力，而可拥有的体育资源并不多。

Well, was just looking at the numbers and looking where sports was gonna go and where I thought the distribution model was going and the requirement for SVOD and AVOD. And I did my calculation that Fox had to have the product based on where they were going with their business from the RSNs and etcetera. I didn't realize that they were gonna sell, that Rupert was gonna sell, but I did realize where, you know, the marketplace was going with regard to streaming. And sports has always been a huge driver in that space. And there's not a lot of sports to own.

我认为通过国际分销、赞助、场地费用等所有我们采取的措施，加上我们在伦敦五个不同地点设有全球制作设施的生产能力，我们可以大幅降低成本并增加价值。事实证明这是正确的。我们还有达纳·怀特这样出色的合作伙伴，他能继续做他需要做的事，而我则与马克·夏皮罗负责商业方面。如果我们形成这种组合，那将是无敌的组合。

And I thought between international distribution, sponsorship, site fees, all the things that we did, production where we had global production facility in London in five different locations, we could take a lot of costs out and add a lot of value. And it rang true. And we just let have one of the great partners in Dana White who could continue to do what he needed to do, and I would do the business side with Mark Shapiro, and and and if we had that combination, it was gonna be a lethal combination.

为什么这是个值得持有的好业务？这个特定业务有哪些特点？

Why is it a good business to hold? What what are the characteristics with that particular business?

这个特定的...是的。首先这是一项在一天六小时内完成的运动。受众覆盖四个象限——年轻男性、年长男性、女性以及家庭，而且它是全球性的。比赛时长十五到二十五分钟，充满动作场面。

That particular Yeah. One is it's a sport that happens over one day, six hours. The demographics are four quadrants, young men, older men, women now, fam I mean, it's and it's global. And it's very the fights are fifteen minutes or twenty five minutes. They're action packed.

非常适合社交媒体传播。我们的选手遍布全球每个国家。我们是这项运动的主导者。我认为它还有更大的上升空间，因为人们每周都想要大型赛事，事实证明确实如此。

They're great for social. We're in every country in the world with our fighters. It was the dominant player in that sport. And I just thought it had bigger and bigger upside because people want big events on a weekly basis, and it turned out to be true.

你们明年要在白宫举办一场赛事对吧？

You're going to have an event in the White House, I think, next year?

对，六月份。我想已经官宣了。总统上周宣布的。不知道这段什么时候播出，但没错。

Yeah, in June. Think got announced. The president announced it last week. I don't know when this is airing, but yes.

谈谈政治与武术之间的联系。

Tell me about the links between politics and martial art.

这个嘛，你得去问我的搭档达纳·怀特。我在NBC期间曾为总统担任了七到九年的代表。UFC初创时他与达纳关系极佳。在亚特兰大城，当所有人都拒绝UFC并称之为斗鸡时，他是第一个支持UFC的人。他们一直保持着非凡的关系。

Well, that you have to actually talk to my partner, Dana White. I represented the president for seven, nine years in his days on NBC. He had an incredible relationship with Dana when the UFC started. He was the first one in Atlantic City to put the UFC on when nobody would do it and they were calling it cockfighting. And they've maintained an incredible relationship.

当总统第二次竞选时，达纳在社交媒体策略上给予了他很大帮助，长期以来都是总统的重要助力。

And when the president was running for the second time, Dana helped him out with his his his strategy in social and was very helpful and has been helpful for the president for a long time.

你是否认为政治正变得越来越像格斗运动？

Do you think politics is increasingly becoming a bit more like combat sport?

我想这么说：希望不是这样。以查理·柯克事件为契机，希望人们能意识到这对美国和世界都是条危险的道路。全球政治都充满对抗性，但我希望政坛不会真的出现锁喉场面。

I would say the following. I hope not Going to this Charlie Kirk situation, I hope that this is a kind of watershed moment where people realize this is a very bad path for The United States and for the world. I think it's all over the world. There's a very combative, situation in politics. But, you know, I hope nobody gets choked out in politics.

我只希望我们能重新调整思维方式。就像比尔·马赫说的，与所有人对话非常重要。我同意这点，因为必须理解对方，也要能表达自己的观点，这样才能找到中间立场。就像任何谈判一样。

I just hope we kinda kinda realign our thinking. So, I mean, I think, as Bill Maher said, it's very important to talk to everybody. And I agree with that. Because you have to have you have to understand them and you have to be able to express your opinion so that there can be a can be a middle ground. It's like any negotiation, as I said to you.

你不能把筹码全收走。不行。双方都得有所得。

You have to you can't take everything off the table. No. They have to win some. You have to win some.

那么你收购了WWE吗？

Then you bought WWE?

不，我们是合并了。

No. We merged.

嗯，我们是合并了。不，我记得...我记得...我记得你早年自己就是个摔跤手。

Well, we merged. No. You were, I believe I believe I believe you were a wrestler yourself in, you know, in your early years.

这就是你...

That is that where you

当时很想收购它？还是

were keen to buy it? Or

不。我还在Endeavor长期代表Vince处理WWE事务。后来我们没有在2019年上市，我曾和Silver Lake的合伙人Egon Durbin向Vince提议，将UFC剥离出来与WWE合并成立一个新实体，就像现在这样保持Endeavor私有化。当时正值疫情初期，可能是2020或2021年左右。

No. I also I represented Vince in the WWE for a long, long time at Endeavor. And then we didn't go public at the like in, I wanna say '19, I had approached Vince with my partner at Silver Lake Egon Durbin to kind of pull the UFC out and merge it with the WWE and create one entity, and we would, like we have now, be private with Endeavor. Vince because we were just getting into COVID, I think it was in 2000 I don't remember. 2020, 2021, something like that.

Vince当时不愿意。后来我们重新将Endeavor上市——首次上市时我们只持有51%股份。我们已与KKR和Silver Lake谈妥让他们将其份额并入。上市后市场始终没能真正理解我想表达的：我们涵盖了从体育到社交到书籍等娱乐领域的全方位业务。

Vince didn't wanna do it. We then retook Endeavor out with all of the the first time we went out, we only had 51% of the DOC. We had negotiated a deal that KKR and Silver Lake would roll their portion of it in. We went public. The market never really understood what I was trying to express, that we cover every aspect of entertainment from sports to social to books.

那次集团对话从未发生过。我们一直在出售资产。卖掉了学院，卖掉了制作公司。他们就是不明白。

That conglomerate conversation never happened. We kept on selling off pieces. We sold off our academy. We sold off our production company. They just never got.

于是，在经历相当长一段时间后，我们发现其他同类企业的估值达到了70亿美元，这完全说不通。要知道，对UFC和WWE来说，专注于核心业务才是正确选择。我们最初只有UFC和WWE。文斯因故不得不离开。后来我们意识到体育产业剩下的部分——包括内容分发、节目制作、结合场地的贵宾票务，于是我们最后整合了PBR（职业骑牛大赛）。

And so, you know, we looked around after a, you know, significant time and other representative businesses were getting valuations of $7,000,000,000 and this doesn't make sense. And that's you know, it the pure play was the right thing for the UFC and the WWE in bull riding. We first started out with just UFC and WWE. Vince, under circumstances, had to leave. We then realized here's remaining portion of what sports is, which is distribution, production, premium ticketing with location, and we rolled in our last sport PBR.

TKO集团是纯粹的体育实体，其余是代理业务，这部分实际上是私营的。

And that is a pure play sports entity in TKO, the rest is the representation business, that's actually private.

所以现在你们每年有大约350场赛事？观众总数接近十亿吗？

So now you have something like three fifty events per year. And is it close to a billion viewers?

观众数量庞大，赛事也非常多。

A lot of viewers and a lot of events.

将编排类和非编排类内容放在同一家公司运营是否存在挑战？

Are there any challenges to having choreographed and non choreographed content in the same company?

这是体育娱乐产业。上周（不知道节目播出时具体时间）我们刚在印第安纳波利斯与ESPN联合启动了'WrestlePalooza'。ESPN意识到，无论是现场观看还是转播，这都是体育娱乐。虽然具有竞技性，但本质仍是娱乐表演。不过粉丝群体确实令人惊叹。

One sports entertainment, and this past weekend, I don't know when this again when this is gonna air, we had our launch for, WrestlePalooza in Indianapolis with ESPN. And ESPN realizes when you go to one of these live events or you watch it, it's, sports entertainment. And it is definitely, you know, competitive. It is entertainment, so there's you know? But, the fan base is incredible.

这就像UFC一样，是全球性的赛事，看起来非常过瘾。

It's again, like the UFC, it's global, and it's it's it's it's a blast to see.

你过去曾说过很想涉足拳击领域，后来有了保护拳击手的OLLI法案。现在有人说要更新法案，所以你现在是要进军拳击界对吗？

You have said in the past that you'd love to go into boxing, and then you had the OLLI Act, which was kind of protecting the boxers. And now you have people who come out and say that they want to update the act. And so now you are going into boxing, right?

两周前我们在Allegiant体育场（突袭者队主场）办了场赛事，现场7万人。我们在网飞上呈现了史上最精彩的拳击赛事之一。实际上在Allegiant，现场活动的纪录保持者是WWE和我们的拳赛，场面简直疯狂，太不可思议了。

Well, we had an event two weekends ago at Allegiant Stadium where the Raiders play, and there was 70,000 people in the arena. We had one of the great on Netflix, one of the great boxing events ever. Actually, in Allegion, I think the records are with WWE and our boxing match for, live events. It was crazy. It was it was incredible.

我们正在尝试与政府和国会协商，看能否为Aliyak法案制定补充条款，这对拳击手的身心健康和收入等都有利，就像我们在UFC创造的机会那样。如果一切顺利，拳击将是我们重点关注的领域。我们同时也在发展柔术，要全面覆盖格斗类运动。

We are in the middle of kind of seeing if we can work with the administration and congress about, kind of having having an addendum to the Aliyak, which I think is better for the boxers health wise, money wise, etcetera, creating an opportunity like we have with the UFC. And if if everything works out, well, boxing is an area that we're looking at. We're also in jujitsu. So we we will cover the full spectrum of of, combat sports.

拳击对你而言能有多大的发展空间？

How how large can boxing be for you?

说来有趣，我们有Nick Khan、Dana White和Hunter Kent这支优秀团队，由Dana和Nick Khan领导。我们与沙特方面也有良好合作。就两周前那场赛事，网飞上就有2500万条同步直播流，全球数据我记不清了。

I you know, the funny thing is we again, we have Nick Khan and Dana White and Hunter Kent. We have a great team led by, Dana and and Nick Khan. We have a good partner in in the Saudis. And you see how big I mean, I think on the event we had two weekends ago, I think there was 25,000,000 consecutive streams on Netflix. I don't remember how many globally.

这个数字非常可观。拳击已有数百年历史，UFC才三十多年，但人们对它已有认知。如果我们能让拳击重返黄金时代，Dana和Nick能借此打造明星选手的话。

It was a significant number. Boxing has been around for hundreds of years. Mean, UFC has been around for over thirty, but you know, not a hundred. And there's an understanding of it. If we can bring it back to the glory days and Dana and Nick can create the stars behind it.

它的规模可以与我们其他任何资产相媲美。

It can be as big as any of our other assets.

我记得你们曾一度差点收购一级方程式赛车。

You nearly bought Formula One at one point, I believe.

你知道，在TKO合并之前，我们一直在英国运作CVC。当时他们拥有它，因为你知道，它的生命周期已经走完了。而我们在收购UFC前三个月刚买下Egon Real，那是一笔91亿美元的巨额交易。我们还没开始执行广播策略，正着手削减成本并处理所有那些事务。而且我觉得...你得记住当时还有英国脱欧，所以我们遇到了银行问题。

You know, when we So before the TKO merger, We had been working on CVC in The UK. They had owned it at the time to buy it because they were you know, they had it had run its cycle. And Egon Real we had just bought three months before the UFC, and it was a $9.10000000000 chunk. We had not gone into our execution of the broadcast strategy yet, And we were starting to cut costs and do all those things that we were doing. And I just think it was You got to remember also, you you had Brexit, so we had a banking issue.

我们和你没有那种能获得无限资金的关系。我觉得当时有点考虑不周，难以操作。回想起来，我们俩对视一眼，可能都会后悔这个决定。不过无论如何，我们做得很好。

We didn't have a relationship with you so we could get infinite money. And I think it was just a little bit kind of thought through hard to kind of get, you know. I think looking back and we both looked at each other, we're probably going to regret this. You know, regardless, we've done very well.

如果让你再买一项运动，你会选什么？

If you could buy another sport, what would it be?

首先，我现在根本没考虑这个。我们得先把现有的一切执行好，要让柔术站稳脚跟，继续稳步推进拳击战略。我们手头已经有很多事了。

Well, first of all, I'm not thinking about that right now. I mean, we have to execute on everything we have now. We have to get jujitsu up on its feet. We gotta continue to execute slowly our boxing strategy. There's a lot on our plate.

我们刚完成国内外的多数广播合约，每年都有新情况。还得整合WWE和UFC的资源实现协同效应。你看，我的盘子已经够大了。虽然很感谢你想继续拓展，但如果我能把手头的事做好，就已经非常了不起了。

We've just finished the majority of the broadcast deals domestically, internationally, things come up every year. We still got integration with the WWE and UFC savings that we have to get to. You know, I got a big plate. So I appreciate you me wanting to kind of keep on going. But if I just do what I'm doing, it's gonna be a really, it's a great

从哲学角度讲，人们消费和思考体育的方式正在发生怎样的变化？你认为十年后

Philosophically, how is the way people consume and think about sports changing? How do you see this in ten,

会怎样？要知道，要保持年轻活力，你必须制定周密的社交策略——无论是针对选手还是赛事本身，以保持受众年轻化。我们在各平台拥有业内最年轻的用户群体。接着你需要紧盯国内外分销商的营销策略，还要与赞助商合作，在赛事来临时为不同体育项目量身定制整合方案。

twenty years? Well, know, you have to have a, to keep it young, you have to have a really thought out social strategy with your fighters, with your sport, to keep the demo young. And I think we have some of the youngest demos in the business across our platforms. You then have to be on your distributors domestically, internationally about their marketing strategy. And then you have to kind of with your sponsors, you have to do integrations with them appropriately for your sports as the events come up.

如果这三方面都做到位，就能打造相当成功的事业。我们处于令人艳羡的位置——拥有非常年轻的体育项目，而且通过这个载体（指流媒体）就能消费。你完全可以打出漂亮的本垒打。

And if you do all three of those properly, then you you can have a pretty successful business. And we're in the enviable position. We have very young sports and they're consumable on this thing. You you can have a knockout.

砰！那么阿里，当你做交易时如何进行调研？分析数据和直觉判断各占多少比重？

Boom. So, Ari, how do you when you do a deal, how do you do the research? How much is analysis and how much is gut feel?

不不不。当我们推广WWE或UFC赛事版权时，整个研究团队会出具报告：我们在Netflix、亚马逊、苹果平台的用户画像，你尚未触达的群体，潜在订阅用户的价值评估。我们像NFL、NBA那样准备上百页的资产价值报告。你总不能空着手去谈判对吧？我们有一整套完整的演示方案。

No, no, no. When we presented the WWE or the UFC, when we're taking our rights out for market, we have a whole research team that does here's our demo like on Netflix or on Amazon or on Apple, here's who you're not touching, here's the people that want to sign up for your place and if you get them, here's how much we believe. We do a huge, you know, 100 page decks about the value creation by being in business with our assets are like the NFL does, the NBA does, etcetera. And yeah, I mean, that was, you don't go into these things like, where do you think the wins? No, there's a huge presentation.

要知道每个合作方策略都不同：ESPN引进WWE需要盛大造势来推动新服务，Netflix则要拓展广告客户群。每个资产收购诉求不同，我们必须定制化提案。为此我们配备了庞大的专业团队。

And then you know, because each one of them has a different strategy. With the WWE and ESPN, they wanted a big launch, they needed another thing to kind of drive people into their new service. Netflix wanted to get to an advertising base. Each one of them have different reasoning for why they want an asset, and so you have to tailor your presentations to those assets. And we have a ton of people doing that for us.

这个过程中你们有很多不同背景的人发出多元声音。为什么这点很重要？

And you have a lot of different people in this process with different voices. Why is that important? I

我认为领导力的关键在于，作为优秀领导者，你需要汇聚多方意见才能得出正确结论，而非独断专行。我们高管团队经常反复讨论交易细节——该争取什么、该放弃什么、业务拓展方向。每周我们都会召开UFC会议、WWE会议、柔术斗牛赛事会议。这种集思广益对决策至关重要。犯错在所难免，但让公司各层级运营者都有发言权，至少能在错误发生时有所缓冲，并找到前进方向。

think it's important for leadership that if you are a good leader, one is you want a lot of voices inside the mix to come to the right conclusion and not make a decision that your opinion is the right opinion. So there are many executives that we sit around constantly going back and forth about deals, you know, what we can ask for, what we shouldn't ask for, places we should be growing the business. We have calls every week on the UFC, calls every week on the WWE, jujitsu bull riding. And I think that's, you know, important for leadership, to get to the right conclusion. You always know you're gonna make mistakes, but you want everybody that is running the operations for your company at every level to have a voice in it so that when the mistakes come, we can at least mitigate them a little bit and then have a path forward.

经营过程中必须持续复盘。体育产业运营本就特殊，我们更面临双重模式：WWE选手签的是合约，UFC选手属于独立承包商。这正是迪士尼、康卡斯特、华纳兄弟、奈飞等媒体集团难以直接运营体育赛事的原因。

And you constantly have to be reviewing this stuff as you operate your business. I don't know how other people do it. Running a sport is like anything else, but we have the added situation that you're On the WWE, they're signed contracts. On the UFC, they're independent contractors. That's why it's very difficult for a media company like a Disney, a Comcast, a Warner Brothers, a Netflix to own a sport.

这类流动性极强的业态需要多元声音来反馈各种动态。不仅要考虑商业模式，还要洞察明星选手的思维变化。在商业运营过程中，必须持续评估这种高度动态的局面。

I think they would hurt the operate because it's a very kind of fluid situation. And that's why you need a lot of voices in that can tell you all the different things going on. Because it's not only how you run the business, it's how your superstars and athletes are thinking about it. And those that's a very dynamic situation to to kind of constantly be reviewing as you're trying to run the business.

运营这种动态局面需要怎样的领导力？

What type of leadership does it take to run this type of fluid situation?

民主式独裁。

A democratic dictatorship.

你们现在就是这种模式？

And that's what you have?

我们的民主独裁制有多位领导者。比如WWE由HHH和尼克·汗共同管理，UFC由达纳负责赛事安排，我和马克则带领团队主理商业运营。

Well, we have we have multiple leaders in the democratic dictatorship. Yeah. On on the on the, you know, you know, h h h runs WWE with Nick Khan. Dana runs, you know, kinda making the fights and everything, UFC. Mark and I run the business side of it with multiple people underneath us.

然后需要协调创作剧情的人、设计打斗场面的人和我们团队之间的方向。是的。

And then there's that coordination between the people that are creating the storylines, creating the fights, and us about where we're going with it. Yeah.

你似乎与管理层关系非常密切。你是如何平衡的？

You seem to have very close relationships with your management. How do you balance?

你认为存在工作与生活的平衡吗？

Do you think there's work life balance?

不，我不这么认为。

No, I don't think so.

我也不这么认为。

I don't either.

不不，我不是这个意思。我不是在问你如何平衡生活，我只是想问你是如何平衡职业关系和个人关系的？

No, no, I don't think that. No, I don't think I'm not asking how you balance your life. I'm just asking how do you balance professional and personal relationships?

我认识达纳三十年了。尼克·汗曾是CAA的经纪人，我们曾试图聘请他来这边工作，与他关系非常密切。我断断续续认识hhh很久了，关系非常紧密。你必须保持密切联系，了解他们生活中的动态。

I've known Dana for thirty years. Known Nick Khan was an agent at CAA. We tried to hire him as an agent here, have a very close relationship with him. I've known h h h off and on for a long time now, very close. You just have to stay close, know what's going on in their lives.

我是说，既然你和某人合作，就必须深入了解他们并关心他们。

I mean, you're in business with somebody, so therefore you have to know a lot about them and care about them.

现在转向另一种娱乐形式。你最近收购了Freeze艺术博览会。

Now moving on to a different type of entertainment. You recently bought the Freeze Art Fair.

没错。这是新业务。刚开始不久。

Right. That's a new business. Less started.

暴力。

Violent.

嗯，这是我的结论。我们把Endeavor私有化了。将UFC、PBR、On Location和IMG拆分成立TKO。银湖资本在我们私有化Endeavor时出售股权，他们希望这成为纯粹的代理业务。我们陆续收购了约700个不同活动。

Well, here's what I concluded. So we took Endeavor private. We spun UFC and PBR and on location and IMG into TKO. Silver Lake, as we took Endeavor private, was selling they wanted it to just be a pure play representation business. We had bought over time about 700 different events.

我有个观点：随着AI和其他因素影响，我们正转向每周四天甚至三天工作制。疫情是开端。如果这样，人们将拥有前所未有的空闲时间。作为社会性动物，人类要么去看体育赛事，要么聚餐，要么观看娱乐节目或现场音乐，我认为人们还会参与现场活动。

I have a thesis that we're down to four day work weeks, maybe three day work weeks. Europe with AI and a bunch of other stuff. COVID started it. So if that's the case, there's going to be more free time than ever. We're social animals, human beings, And they're either going to go to a sporting event, you're to go to dinner, you're going to watch entertainment, you're going to live music, and I also think you're going to do live events.

因此我们收购了网球业务、参与性体育项目Collectibles Freeze和Barrett Jackson拍卖会、多个美食节等资产。我们筹集了约20亿美元股权资金用于收购，希望能打造一个类似Live Nation音乐公司的现场活动迷你版——他们是优秀企业——但专注于全球现场活动业务，因为这个世界正在AI推动下转型，这正是其中一环。

So we've acquired the tennis business, the participatory sports in Collectibles Freeze and Barrett Jackson, our food festivals, a bunch of assets. And we've raised money, about $2,000,000,000 in equity, and we've bought these assets. And we're going to hopefully create, like Live Nation is in music, we're going to create a mini version because they're a great company, but in live events. A global live events business as this world kind of transforms itself with AI. Is a part of that.

而'冻结'是其中的一部分。我认为现场活动比以往任何时候都更重要，这正是我们试图占领的市场。

And Freeze is a part of that. And I think live is more important than it's ever been, and that's the marketplace that we're going try and go capture.

你收藏哪种艺术品？

What kind of art do you collect?

我收藏艺术家。我曾与一位名叫杰弗里·迪奇的先生合作。我主要收藏艺术品，早年涉猎广泛，后来重点关注黑人艺术家，包括美国黑人和南非艺术家，从1930年至今，如萨姆·吉列姆、马克·布拉德福德、诺亚·戴维斯、凯瑞·詹姆斯·马歇尔、本尼·安德鲁斯等。这是个相当不错的收藏，我在这个特定领域已经坚持了很久。

I collect artists. I've worked with this gentleman by the name of Jeffrey Deitch. I collect art mainly at the beginning of my life it was all over the place, then I've focused significantly on black artists, American black artists, and South African, 1930 to now, from Sam Gilliam, Mark Bradford, Noah Davis, Kerry James Marshall, Benny Andrews. It's a pretty nice collection. I've been doing it for now in this specific space.

如果我漏提了哪位艺术家，请别介意——卡拉·沃克，请别生气。这是个不错的收藏，虽不完美，但我还有大把时间。

And anybody I didn't mention, please, nobody, Kara Walker, please don't be offended. It's a good collection. It's not perfect, but I got a lot of time.

你认为你的能量来自哪里？

Where do you think your energy comes from?

嗯，我小时候有多动症，是最早服用利他林的那批孩子之一。今早我还和埃贡·杜尔宾讨论这事，关于我参与的他从银湖资本投资的某家组合公司。我们互相提问时，我问他：'是什么让我们疯狂？'

Well, I was hyperactive when I was a kid. I was one of the first Ritalin kids. So I was actually just having this exchange with Egon Durbin this morning about one of his portfolio companies that I'm involved with out of Silver Lake. And he was saying something, and I was saying something. And I said to him, what makes us crazy?

我们刚就税务问题交流过。其实我也不确定答案，但我仍保持着求知欲。你知道吗？我热爱这种状态。我不累，一点也不。

And we just had this tax exchange. I really don't know, but I'm still intellectually curious. You know? And I love it. I have you know, I don't, don't, I'm not tired.

不，我现在热爱这个过程的每一刻。以前我可能并不享受这个过程，但它只是实现想法的手段。而现在，我真心爱上了这个过程，包括其中的挫折。

I'm not, I love every bit of the process now. I'm not sure I enjoyed the process before, but it was a means to get to fulfill an idea. Now I actually love the process and the aggravation.

过程中的哪些部分是你喜欢的？

Part of the process do like do?

全部。我意识到会有很多令人沮丧的时刻，但这些正是经商必须经历的。起初我不明白这点，也不接受，但现在我已经坦然面对了。

All of it. I realize there's gonna be a lot of aggravating moments. Those are what it's required to do business. If you don't accept that, which was at the beginning, I didn't understand it. Now I've accepted it.

这很棒。

It's great.

知道，记得你说过这个。

Know, think you said that.

结果就是另一回事了。

The outcome is a different conversation.

我记得你说过压力是一种特权。

I think you said pressure is a privilege.

是啊，我觉得那是个

Yeah. I think that's a

不错的观点。其实我得承认，我今天早些时候就用过这个说法。

good one. Actually, I have to admit, I used it earlier today.

哦，是吗？用在什么上了？

Oh, you did? With what?

我只是...不，本来只是想解释为什么我们喜欢待在事情发生的地方，你懂吗？

I just No, thought it was just explain why we like to be where stuff is happening, you know?

没错。而且你会...你会对世界有种不同的感知，而不是像个旁观者。我父母从来不是旁观者。我妈不是，她参加过民权运动。我爸是个相当坚定的倡导者。

Yeah. And it just You just kind of get a different sense of the world as opposed to kind of like being a bystander. I'm not my parents were never bystanders. My mom wasn't, she was in the civil rights movement. My dad was a very pretty hard advocate.

他是位儿科医生，专攻儿童权益方面。你还有两个...你有两个聪明的兄弟？是的。谁是

He was a pediatrician about kind of kids' rights. And And you had two you had two clever brothers? Yeah. Who's

谁是...你们三个里谁最聪明？

who's who's the cleverest of the three of you?

在我们各自的领域里，我觉得大家都挺聪明的。我可不想和我兄弟齐克争论医疗问题——他在宾大读书，就像我跟你说的。更不想和我兄弟拉姆讨论政治——希望他能参选，这位前驻日大使兼芝加哥市长，希望他能竞选总统，我认为他是民主党最合适的人选。他们在各自领域都相当活跃。

In our respective fields, I think we're all pretty clever. I wouldn't wanna have an argument about health care against my brother, Zeke, who's at Penn, as I said to you. And I definitely wouldn't wanna have a political conversation against my brother Ram, who hopefully he runs hopefully, hope the former ambassador of Japan and mayor of Chicago, hopefully, he runs for president, and I think he's the most qualified guy out there for the Democratic Party. And they're pretty dynamic in their own specific fields.

你早上几点起床？

When do you wake up in the morning?

周六我飞往印第安纳波利斯，观看了我们在ESPN上推出的WW摔角狂欢节。然后飞到纽约，昨晚和卡塔尔埃米尔共进晚餐，飞回来时凌晨两点，今早六点就和你一起起床了。周二还要飞回纽约参加客户的首映式，周三晚上飞回这里，接着去阿斯彭，下周二再返回印第安纳波利斯。所以具体时间我也说不准，随遇而安吧。

Well, I flew to Indianapolis on Saturday, saw our launch of our WW, Wrestle Palooza on ESPN. Then I flew to New York, had dinner with the Emir of Qatar last night, flew back, got in at two, woke up at six here with you, and I'm flying back to New York on Tuesday because I have a premiere for a client. Flying back here on Tuesday on Wednesday night, going to Aspen, and then back to Indianapolis on the following Tuesday. So I don't know. Whatever it is, it is.

顺其自然就好。

It just does.

你平时有什么健身计划？

What kind of fitness regime do you have?

噢，这个话题够和你单独录期播客了，说来话长。

Oh, that's its own podcast with you. It's too long to discuss.

好吧，给你一分钟。

Okay. One minute.

不，不，这太长了。我是说，早上4:30或5:00起床。我锻炼一个半小时，蒸桑拿，泡冰浴。我是说，这些年变得越来越疯狂了。你现在还喝酒吗？

No, no, it's way too long. Mean, wake at 04:30, 05:00. I work out for an hour and a half, sauna, ice bath. Mean, it's just, over the years it's gotten crazier and crazier. Do you drink anymore?

我偶尔会喝一杯红酒。

I have a glass of wine from time to time.

我现在完全不喝了。没有冰块我会告诉你

I don't drink it all anymore. Don't have an ice I'll tell

在开始这次播客前，我确实泡了冰浴还蒸了桑拿。

you one thing before this podcast, I did have an ice bath and a sauna.

看吧？我每天都这样。你每天都做吗？

See? I have one every day. Do you do one every day?

是的。是的。

Yep. Yep.

嗯。你桑拿蒸多久？

Yeah. How long is your sauna?

嗯，我不太清楚具体多久。我动作相当快。

Well, I don't know very long. I'm I'm pretty quick.

你通常在里面待多久？

How how long do you stay in?

最多十分钟，十分钟是上限。

It is on a ten minute maximum ten minutes.

我每次做二十分钟，然后在冰浴里泡三分钟。

So I do I do twenty minutes and I do three minutes in the ice bath.

好的。

Okay.

每天都这样。

Every day.

那很好。不，我对此深信不疑。

That's good. No, I am a big believer.

是的。

Yeah.

你觉得你的注意力能集中多久？

How long is your attention span, you think?

我在这里表现得相当不错。

I've I've been pretty good here.

对，完全同意。我是说...已经持续多久了

Yeah. Absolutely. I'm I'm I'm How long have been

我们进行多久了？

How long have we been going?

不，不。好吧，我本来期待你会说‘我得走了，爱你’。

No. No. Yeah. Well, I I had expected you to say, I have to go. Love you.

我觉得如果你想结束对话的话，现在就可以按你平常的方式说。不，不，再聊两分钟。从...我是说，有些人称之为失败中学习。

I think that's how you normally finish your conversation now if you want. No. No. Two more minutes. Learning from I mean, some people call it failures.

我想你们有别的叫法。但从中学到

I think you call it something else. But learning from

是的。试炼，我最大的失败之一就是第一次没有成功上市。我甚至都没搞明白。对吧？但那让我们成长，然后疫情就来了。

Yeah. Trials, I one of the biggest failures was, you know, not going public the first time. I didn't I didn't even understand it. Right? But that enabled us and then COVID hit.

于是我们研读各方观点，承认搞砸了，以不同策略重返市场，与摩根士丹利和Egon合作完善方案。马克·夏皮罗团队处理了疫情带来的所有问题——你知道这对许多企业影响重大，我们完成了融资。我一直试图向孩子们和共事者灌输：经营事业不在于你能出多少拳，而在于你能挨多少拳。所以耐力，情绪耐力才是关键。

And so reading all the points of view of what wasn't good, admitting that we screwed it up, going back into the market but with a different strategy, working with Morgan Stanley and Egon and really refining it. I had, you know, Mark Shapiro and team dealt with all the issues on COVID, which was, as you know, a lot of your companies, significant how you handled it, doing the raise. We, you know, we just You can't try and instill this with my kids, hopefully with people that work with me. When you're running something, it's not how many punches you can throw, it's how many punches you can take. So endurance, emotional endurance is a really key factor.

失败会真正凸显这一点。能够从击倒中站起来重返竞技场至关重要。关于这点有很多名言，比如汤姆·布雷迪的——不是每个人都能做到，但你必须具备爬起来的能力。

And failure really puts the light on that. And being able to get up off the canvas and get back in the arena is crucial. And there's all these great quotes about it and the Tom Brady's or everybody doesn't. You just have to be able to get off the canvas.

嗯。那你对年轻创业者有什么建议？

Yeah. What's your So what would be your advice to young aspiring entrepreneurs?

要学会享受挫折。真的去享受它。因为这就是创业的本质。如果你热爱你的事业——我至今依然热爱，而且事业还在扩展——那就享受艰难。因为艰难本就是...

Actually enjoy the aggravation. Enjoy it. Because that is what it's about. If you love what you're doing, and I still love it, and what I'm doing is expanded, then enjoy the hardship. Because the hardship is part of the process of

人怎么可能享受那些令人烦恼甚至痛苦的事？怎么说服自己痛苦是好事？

How being can you enjoy, you know, aggravation and stuff that hurts? How teach can yourself that pain is good?

要知道，在冰浴中坚持三分钟并不容易。在高温桑拿中冥想，这是我为了健康而做的事情之一。今天我正在进行24小时禁食，每个季度还会进行三天禁食。训练你的心智，让它在个人健康层面也能承受不适，这对事业也有帮助。因为通过设定自己能做与不能做的界限——虽然初衷是为了健康——但这同样能提升你的商业决策能力和承受挫折的韧性。

Well, you know, doing three minutes in an ice bath ain't easy. Meditating in a very hot sauna, know, one of my things in my why I do these things for my health. You know, today I'm on a twenty four hour fast, every quarter I do a three day fast. Getting your mind, the ability for your mind to be able to handle uncomfortable also on a personal level for your health helps you in business too, because it and you know, kind of putting barriers around yourself for what you can and can't do. That that also helps even though it's for your health, it also helps in your business decision making and your ability to kind of be the ability to endure the aggravation.

你会意识到这也会过去。它不会击垮你，你会挺过来。只是需要非常努力。如果你能从不同层面领悟这些道理——有时来自职场经历，有时来自克服困境，有时来自个人生活——你就会明白自己能够应对。对我来说，这一切始于我未察觉的时刻：我有阅读障碍。

And you realize this too will pass. It's not going to kill you and you're going to work through it. You just have to work really hard. And if you kind of learn those things at many different levels, sometimes it comes from business, sometimes you see that you got through this or sometimes it comes from your personal life, you can handle it. For me, it started, and I didn't realize this during the moments, I was dyslexic.

阅读对我来说曾是艰难且尴尬的事，令人不适。但正是在不适中保持从容，才能应对商业中的各种挫折。虽然当时我痛恨自己和阅读障碍，但现在我明白：你必须学会与不适共处。

It was not easy reading and it was embarrassing. It was uncomfortable. And being able to be comfortable in the uncomfortable enables you to handle aggravation and all the other things you need in business. And even at the time, I I I hated myself and my inability to read. It has helped me now realizing that you have to be comfortable in the uncomfortable.

我认为这对所有商界人士都适用。

And I think that's true for all business people.

你对年轻人有什么建议？

And what is your advice to young people?

学会与不适共处。不要认为成功会自然发生。如果你在意，就必须经历所有痛苦去实现它。现在人们总说——我不确定这种教育方式是否还存在——父母不能总是溺爱你，不能因为得了第二名就给你奖励，有时必须约束你，要求你完成某些事情。

Be comfortable in the uncomfortable. Learn that and don't think that it should just happen. You actually have to work through all the pain to make it happen if you care. And people talk about, I'm not sure that that is being taught now. You know, your parents can't cuddle you and can't give you an award for coming in second and have to, you know, ground you and do certain things for you.

成年后你必须接过这份责任继续前行。父母会一直陪伴，但不会给你现成答案。希望我也是这样教育我的孩子们的。

And then you have to pick up the mantle as an adult and and keep on doing it. And and your parents have to be there all the way, but not giving you the answers. So, hopefully, I've done that with my kids.

听起来是这样。很高兴你能来参加，阿里。祝你所有项目都一切顺利。

Sounds like it. It's been great having you on, Ari. All of best of luck with all your projects.

谢谢你，安

Thank you And

而且确实有很多项目。

there very are lots of them.