亮点：克里斯塔利娜·格奥尔基耶娃

大家好。

Hi, everybody.

收听这个简短版的播客，我们每周五都会发布。

Tune in to this short version of the podcast, which we do every Friday.

如需收听完整版，请周三收听。

For the long version, tune in on Wednesdays.

大家好。

Hi, everyone.

我是挪威主权财富基金的尼古拉·坦根。

I'm Nikola Tangen from the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund.

今天，我系上了领带，因为能和克里斯塔利娜·乔治亚娃这样杰出的人物在一起，我感到非常荣幸。

And today, I put on a tie because I'm in really good company with Kristalina Georgiava.

很高兴能和你在一起。

Wonderful to be with you.

现在，克里斯塔利娜是国际货币基金组织（IMF）的总裁。

Now Kristalina is the Managing Director of IMF, the International Monetary Fund.

您以富有远见的领导力著称，并且一直积极倡导重要、大胆、长期的改革。

And you are known for your visionary leadership and the way you have been advocating for really important, bold, long term reforms.

那么我们从头开始吧。

So let's just start with the beginning here.

国际货币基金组织，它是什么？

IMF, what is it?

国际货币基金组织是在第二次世界大战末期与世界银行一同成立的，旨在帮助各国战后恢复，并建立能够稳定金融体系的机构。

Well, IMF was created towards the end of the Second World War, together with the World Bank, to help countries recover after the war and to put in place institutions that can stabilize the financial system.

我们的使命是促进宏观经济和金融稳定，推动增长与就业。

Our mandate, macroeconomic and financial stability, for growth and employment.

我们拥有191个成员国。

We have a membership of 191 countries.

事实上，近年来我们新增了两个成员国，分别是小国安道尔和列支敦士登。

In fact, over the last years we got two new members, small countries, Andorra and Liechtenstein.

这很好。

That's good.

你们如何

And how do you

帮助这些公司？

help these companies?

我们为成员国所做的第一件事是帮助他们从一个视角了解世界经济。

What we do for our members is first help them to see the world economy from one vantage point.

我们拥有独特的能力，可以收集所有国家的数据，并定期进行，以便掌握各经济体的脉搏，汇总整体情况，从而识别各国应关注的世界趋势。

We have this unique right to collect data from all countries and we do that regularly so we can take the vital signs of economies, aggregate the picture and then see what are the trends in the world they should be mindful of.

其次，当国家陷入困境并需要快速融资以稳定经济时，我们会提供支持。

Secondly, when countries are in trouble and they need quickly financing to stabilize their economies, we come true.

我们拥有一万亿美元的贷款能力，用于向危机国家提供援助。

We have lending capacity of $1,000,000,000,000 We deploy it for countries in crisis.

有些是中等收入国家，有些是贫穷、脆弱的国家。

Some are middle income countries, some are poor, vulnerable countries.

第三，我们帮助各国建立良好的制度，特别是货币当局、财政当局、数据和统计能力，使它们能够以更专业的视角审视自身的经济发展。

And the third thing we do is we help countries build good institutions, especially monetary authorities, fiscal authorities, data, statistical capacity, they can see their own economic development with a more educated eye.

危机严重到什么程度他们才会找你们？

How bad does the crisis need to be before they call you?

有时候，他们在危机发生前就会联系我们。

Well, sometimes they call before a crisis hits.

我们还有一个职能是预防危机的发生。

We have also a function to prevent crisis from happening.

有时候，当市场突然关闭时，他们会打电话求助。

Sometimes they call when markets close on them.

让我讲一个关于我本国的故事。

I'll tell you a story of my own country.

我是保加利亚人。

I am Bulgarian.

上世纪90年代末，保加利亚遭遇了恶性通货膨胀，通胀率超过8000%，当时我们求助于国际货币基金组织。

In the late '90s, Bulgaria was hit by hyperinflation, over 8000% inflation, and it caught on the IMF.

因此，国际货币基金组织为我们国家帮助建立了货币局制度，这真正稳定了经济并实现了财政纪律。

So what the IMF did for my country was to help us put in place a currency board, which really stabilized the economy and put fiscal discipline.

保加利亚目前的债务占GDP的24%，赤字为3%，从1月1日起将成为欧元区成员国。

Bulgaria today has 24% debt to GDP, 3% deficit, and as of January 1 would be a member of the Eurozone.

当国际货币基金组织救助保加利亚时，你是不是心想：‘哇，我真想掌管这个机构，他们会不会选我？’

Was it when IMF bailed out Bulgaria that you decided, you know what, I would love to be in charge of that, won't they?

你知道吗，当时国际货币基金组织帮助重建保加利亚时，我其实正在世界银行工作。

You know, at that time, when the IMF built Bulgaria, I was actually at the World Bank.

我当时已经身处布雷顿森林体系的两大机构之一。

I was already in one of the two Bretton Woods institutions.

那时我从未想过，有一天会坐在这里和你交谈，而我已经担任国际货币基金组织负责人六年了。

Never crossed my mind at that time that we would be sitting with you, and I would have been already six years at the helm of the IMF.

让我们谈谈世界经济吧，因为克里斯蒂娜，世界上可能没人比你更清楚全球经济的现状。

Let's touch on the world economy because, Kristina, probably nobody in the world has got better statistics than you about the state of the world.

那么，你如何看待当前的世界经济形势？

So how do you read the state of the world just now?

比我们担心的要好，但比应有的状况更糟。

Better than we feared, worse than it needs to be.

我们有一个世界经济，它在面对从新冠疫情开始的多重冲击时，表现出了惊人的韧性。

We have a world economy that has proven to be remarkably resilient to the multiple shocks that have been hitting us starting with COVID.

我们

We

我们预计今年和明年经济增长将超过百分之三。

are projecting over three percent growth this year and next.

尽管地缘政治、技术、人口结构和气候等变革性力量正在冲击我们，但世界经济仍在持续增长。

Despite the transformational forces that are hitting us, geopolitics, technology, demography, climate, we have a world that continues to grow.

但首先，这种增长速度太慢，无法满足全球人民对更好生活的期望。

But first, this growth is too slow to meet the aspirations of people around the world for better lives.

当我们回顾新冠疫情前的时期，平均增长率是3.7%。

When we look back before COVID, the average growth rate was 3.7%.

现在则徘徊在3%左右。

Now it lingers around three.

其次，我们这个世界经济尚未真正经受住其韧性的全面考验，我的意思是，我们还不清楚这些多重变革力量未来可能如何考验它。

Second, we have a world economy that has not been really fully tested for its resilience and what I mean is that we don't quite know how these multiple forces of transformation may test it in the future.

现在美国称国际货币基金组织已经偏离了其核心使命与稳定。

Now The US is saying that IMF has drifted from its core missional stability.

嗯，你知道，如何

Well, know, How

你如何回应这一说法？

do you respond to that statement?

首先，确实，我们必须始终谨慎分配我们的资源。

We, one, it is true that we can, we have to be always mindful where we put our resources.

当我们的任何成员国，当然包括美国，提醒我们时，我非常尊重。

And I am very respectful when any of our members, of course, U.

美国。

S.

包括在内，告诉我们：要小心。

Included, tell us, Be careful.

你可能会涉足太多方向。

You may be venturing into too many directions.

我们是一个小型机构。

We are a small institution.

我们大约有4000人。

We are about 4,000 people.

我们是一个相当高效能的机构，因此每个人都希望我们为他们做更多、不同的事情。

We are a fairly high performing institution, so everybody wants us to do more and different things for them.

所以我们必须保持自律，专注于核心任务。

So we have to have the discipline to stay focused.

当我审视基金为世界所做的一切时，我想说，是的，我们做得相当不错。

And I would say, when I look at the delivery from the fund, what we are doing for the world, that, yep, we are doing pretty well.

在涉及你所信仰的事情时，你个人是否需要做出妥协以维持和平？

Do you personally have to compromise when it comes to things that you believe in, in order to keep the peace?

我们是一个成员制组织。

We are a membership organization.

我的职责是帮助成员们在当今更加复杂的世界中协同合作。

I'm here to help the members work together, collaborate in a world which is more complex these days.

因此，我相信的事情当然重要，但更重要的是我的成员对我们有什么需求。

So what I believe, of course, matters, but what matters even more is what my membership needs from us.

是的。

Yeah.

这就是我的指南针。

And that is my guiding star.

你是在20世纪50年代和60年代的保加利亚，铁幕之后长大的。

You grew up in Bulgaria in the 50s and the 60s and behind the Iron Curtain.

我刚刚在想，比如军队之类的事情。

And I was just kind of thinking about, you know, armies and things like that.

你的成长经历是怎样的？

Just how was your upbringing like?

我很幸运，出生在一个充满爱的普通家庭。

I was very fortunate to be a kid in a loving family, ordinary family.

物质上我们一无所有，但我们拥有彼此。

Materially, we had nothing, but we had each other.

当你说到普通，你的父母其实挺聪明的，对吧？

When you say ordinary, you had quite clever parents, right?

嗯，他们确实聪明，但我母亲在商店当售货员。

Well, were clever, but my mother worked in a shop as a shop assistant.

我父亲是一名道路技术员，他非常出色，因此被提拔为工程师，而不是党员，换句话说，不属于当时的社会精英。

My father was a road technician who was so good that he got promoted to be in a position of an engineer, not party members, in other words, not part of the elite of these days.

但当我回家时，我们住在一楼，我能听到父亲和母亲在唱歌。

But I would be coming home and I would we lived on the 1st Floor, and I would hear my father and my mother singing.

我们穷得连收音机都没有，直到我二十多岁才有了。

We had so much nothing that we didn't have a radio until I think I was in my 20s.

所以我们唱歌，那感觉真好。

So we sang and that was wonderful.

父母给我最重要的一样东西，是我永远感激的，那就是鼓励我永不放弃。

One thing that my parents gave me that I'm forever grateful to them is the encouragement to kind of never give up.

我一直有志于学习新闻学。

I had the ambition to study journalism.

这没有发生，因为我的家人并不是党员家庭。

That didn't happen because my family was not a party family.

但他们鼓励我学习政治经济学和社会学。

But they kind of encouraged me to study political economy and sociology.

社会学非常有趣。

Sociology was great fun.

他们总是说，你知道，你可以成为任何你想成为的人，所以我就在这里了。

And they would always say, you know, You can be anything you want to be, so here I am.

不用说，当我大学毕业、获得博士学位时，我的父母非常自豪——我是我们大家庭中第一个获得博士学位的人。

Needless to say, my parents were very proud when I graduated from university, when I got my PhD, the first in our extended family with a PhD degree.

你知道，我只有这些美好的回忆：童年时物质上贫穷，但在情感上和教育上却很富足。

And, you know, I have only these wonderful memories of growing up materially poor, but emotionally, and in terms of education, rich.