柏格森与时间

BBC之声，音乐、广播、播客。

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

感谢下载本期《我们的时代》节目，我们的网站上附有相关阅读清单，如果您在Twitter上关注BBC《我们的时代》，可以获取我们节目的最新消息。希望您喜欢这些节目。亨利·柏格森，1859年至1941年，是他那个时代最著名的哲学家，他的讲座在巴黎和纽约引发交通堵塞。他最初凭借关于时间的观点在19世纪崭露头角，其著作《时间与自由意志》回应了当时新兴的观点——即唯有科学能真正预测人类情感、思想和思维。

Thanks for downloading this episode of In Our There's a reading list to go with it on our website, and you can get news about our programs if you follow us on Twitter at BBC In Our Time. I hope you enjoy the programs. Hello. Henry Bergson, 1859 to 1941, was the most famous philosopher of his time, and crowds for his lectures caused traffic jams in Paris and New York. It was for his ideas about time that he first made his mark in the nineteenth century in a book on time and free will, a response to the new idea that science alone could truly predict human emotions, ideas, and thoughts.

他特别指出，技术所衡量的时钟时间与我们体验的心理时间不同，在我们的心理时间中，当下因过去和记忆而变得厚重，延伸为一段绵延的时长，而非转瞬即逝的一秒。与我一同讨论柏格森与时间的是杜伦大学哲学助理教授艾米丽·托马斯、罗汉普顿大学哲学高级讲师马克·辛克莱，以及华威大学哲学教授基思·安塞尔·皮尔森。基思·安塞尔·皮尔森，柏格森的背景如何？亨利·柏格森的生平背景是怎样的？

In particular, he argued that the clock time of technology is different from the psychological time we experience, where our present is thickened by our past and our memories and stretches out a long duration, not a passing second. With me to discuss Bergson and Time are Emily Thomas, Assistant Professor in Philosophy at Durham University Mark Sinclair, Reader in Philosophy at the University of Roehampton and Keith Ansell Pearson, Professor of Philosophy at the University of Warwick. Keith Ansell Pearson, what was his background? What was Henry Bergson's background?

关于柏格森的生平细节，他1859年出生于巴黎，1941年在纳粹占领下的巴黎去世。他的父母都是犹太人，父亲迈克尔是波兰人，一位才华横溢的作曲家和钢琴家；母亲凯瑟琳则来自英国，确切地说是约克郡。

In terms of giving you some details about his life, Bergson was born in Paris in 1859. He will die in that city in 1941 under Nazi occupation. Bergson's parents, both of his parents were Jewish. His father, Michael, was Polish, a gifted composer and pianist. His mother, Catherine, was from England, from Yorkshire, in fact.

10岁时，他的家人移居英国并定居下来，而柏格森留在巴黎完成学业。他是一位极其出色的学生，尤其在哲学和数学方面表现卓越。上大学前，他无法决定要成为哲学家还是数学家，但最终选择了哲学道路。他在巴黎高等师范学院接受教育，并在此完成博士论文，该论文于1889年作为他的首部著作《时间与自由意志》出版。

At the age of 10, his family moved to England and settled there, and Bergson remains in Paris to complete his education. He's highly brilliant student. He excels especially in philosophy and mathematics. Prior to going to university, he can't decide whether he wants to become a philosopher or a mathematician, but ultimately makes the decision to become a philosopher. He's educated at the Ecole Normale Superieure, where he writes his doctoral thesis, which is then published in 1889 as his first book, Time and Free Will.

1891年，柏格森与路易丝·纽伯格结婚，马塞尔·普鲁斯特担任伴郎——他与柏格森的未婚妻有亲戚关系。1896年他们育有一女。数年间，他先后在法国多所学校教授哲学，随后当选为法兰西公学院哲学教授，先任古代哲学教授，几年后转任现代哲学教授。二十世纪初期（前二十年），柏格森成为当时最负盛名的哲学家。

Berkson marries Louise Neuberger in 1891, and Marcel Proust is the best man at the wedding. He's related to Berkson's wife to be, and they have one daughter in 1896. For several years, he spends time teaching philosophy at various schools in France, and then he's elected to a position of professor philosophy at the College de France. First of all, as the professor of ancient philosophy, and then several years later, as professor of modern philosophy. Bergson becomes, in the early part of the twentieth century, the first two decades, the most celebrated philosopher of his day.

他的讲座吸引了大量听众，其声望和名誉远播法国之外。

He attracts enormous audiences to his lectures, and his fame and reputation extend well beyond France.

请问，当时法国的哲学家们是如何运用科学来理解时间和心灵的？我们单说心灵。

Can I ask you, in what ways were the philosophers in France at that time applying science to their understanding of time and of the mind? Let's just say the mind.

是的。很大程度上，柏格森是在回应当时占主导地位的思想潮流，即实证主义。一方面，柏格森赞赏实证主义关注具体经验事实，反对过度抽象的形而上学思辨。所以他认同对经验科学的重视。但另一方面，他担心实证主义对经验的理解极其有限，无法充分体现人类经验的丰富性。

Yep. Well, Bergson, in large part, is responding to what you we might call the main dominant intellectual current of his time, which is positivism. And on the one hand, Bergson welcomes its attention to concrete facts of experience against what you might see as engaging in overly abstract metaphysical speculation. So he likes the attachment to the empirical sciences. But on the other hand, he's worried that its appreciation of experience is incredibly limited, and it can't do full justice to the richness of human experience.

在那个时代，哲学和许多其他领域都推崇科学，认为科学能解答一切。如果能将科学作为学科的根本准则，他们就认为走对了路。

It was a time when philosophy and many other things were privileging science, that science was the answer to everything. If they could get science as the fundamental maker and breaker of their discipline, then they were on the right track.

没错。柏格森始终认为哲学需要与科学互动，需要与科学对话，但也需要找到自身的知识来源。根本上，他在质疑当时的一种假设，即物理科学的模式可以直接自动地应用于人类经验的心理领域。

Yeah. That's right. So Bergson is always thinking that philosophy needs to engage with the sciences. It needs to engage in a dialogue with the sciences, but it needs also to find its own sources of knowledge. And basically, he's questioning the assumption made at the time that the model of the physical sciences can be simply automatically applied to the psychological realm of human experience.

所以你能像预测机器行为那样预测心灵活动吗？

So you can predict what the mind will do just like you can predict what a machine will do?

正是如此。你把心灵当作自然科学家或物理科学家对待物质那样——物质遵循可预测的运动、行为和活动规律，我们可以将此应用于对人类思想、情感和观念的理解。

Exactly. So you treat the mind in the same way the natural scientists or the physical scientists would treat matter, that matter is subject to predictable laws of movement and of behaviour and of action, and we can apply that to an understanding of human thoughts, feelings and ideas.

那么这是一场声势浩大的运动。他算是孤身一人勇敢地与之对抗吗？

So this was a huge movement. Was he sort of alone in, as it were, valiantly standing against it?

他并非孤例。当时法国哲学界兴起的名为'精神主义'的广泛思潮都在质疑将人类心智简化为物理科学模型的做法。谢谢。

He's not alone. He's part of a wider movement in French philosophy called spiritualism at the time, which is questioning that reduction of the human mind to the model of the physical sciences. Thank you

非常感谢。艾米丽·托马斯，在十九世纪末二十世纪初，人们对时间的态度是如何变化的？

very much. Emily Thomas, how were attitudes to time changing at the end of the nineteenth, beginning of the twentieth century?

就大众社会而言，时间成了人们关注的焦点。人们以前所未有的方式深入思考着时间概念。我举几个例子：时间线的普及就是其中之一。时间线发明于1765年，到十九世纪初、十九世纪末时已随处可见。

In terms of populist society, time was on the brain. People were really, really thinking about time in ways that they hadn't been forced to before. So I'll give you a few examples. One thing that was proliferating were timelines. They were invented in 1765 and by the early nineteenth century, late nineteenth century, they were everywhere.

人们为所有能想到的事物绘制时间线，从帝国兴衰到疾病传播。除了时间线，人们还担忧时间的统一性。例如1840年前后的英国引入铁路时间，确保格拉斯哥和伦敦时间完全同步——如果格拉斯哥是上午11:05，伦敦也必须是11:05。到1900年，世界时区体系建立，这时我们才能说阿姆斯特丹比伦敦早一小时。

People were making timelines of everything they could think of, from the movement of empires to the progress of diseases. On top of timelines, people were worried about unifying time. So in The UK, for example, around 1840, we have railway time being introduced, where we want to make doubly sure that Glasgow and London have the same time. If it's five past eleven in the morning in Glasgow, it must be five past eleven in the morning in London. By 1900, we have the introduction of world time zones, which is when we can say that Amsterdam is one hour ahead of London.

除了对计时器的普遍担忧，钟表本身也...

On top of worries about clocks in general, clocks themselves

为什么人们会担心钟表问题？

Why were there worries about clocks?

啊，人们确实担忧钟表。部分原因是铁路系统——要确保火车从一个地方准点发车后，能在正确时间到达另一地点且不会中途相撞。因此钟表变得极为普及，教堂钟楼遍布各地，人们佩戴怀表的现象也远超以往。

Ah, people were worried about clocks. In part because of the railways. They want to make sure that if trains are leaving on time in one place, that they're going to arrive at the right time in another and they're not going to hit another train in the meantime. So clocks became really common. They were erected on churches throughout the land, and people began carrying watches so much more than had ever happened in the past.

于是钟表变得非常普及。人们开始思考时间问题。更重要的是，出现了连续摄影技术，大约从19世纪60年代开始发展。这是人类首次能够拍摄飞行中的鸟类等动态，并记录每一个瞬间。

So clocks became really widespread. People were thinking about them. And on top of that, you have this phenomenon of chronophotography, which starts being developed from the sort of eighteen sixties. Where for the very first time, you could take photographs of say, a bird in flight and track every moment.

所以需要多张照片，可以全方位观察。还有网球、体操动作，天知道还有什么。

So it'd be several photographs, can see right the way around. And tennis balls and exercises and goodness knows what.

没错。人们那时确实在思考时间问题。这是个热门话题。

Yeah. And people were really thinking about time. It was in the air.

当时哲学界对时间的主流观点是什么？

What was the predominant view of time in philosophy?

那时哲学界有两大不同流派。较古老的一派被称为牛顿绝对主义。这种观点认为时间是事件的容器，是独立于物体和运动而存在的实体。时间就在那里。

There were two big different movements in philosophy around then. So one older one was known as Newtonian absolutism. And this is the view that time is a kind of container for events. So time is something that exists independently of bodies and moving things. Time is there.

即使宇宙中空无一物，时间依然存在。

Even if there was nothing else in the universe, there would be time.

另一派呢？

And the other?

康德关于时间的唯心主义观点。康德认为，即便从宇宙中移除所有物质实体，时间依然存在。这揭示了人类心智的特性，而非宇宙的本质。对康德而言，时间是思维的先决条件，我们不可避免地以暂时性的方式感知世界。

Kantian idealism about time. So Kant says, okay, let's agree with Newton that even if you remove material bodies from the universe, you can't remove time. That tells us something about our minds, not about the universe. So for Kant, time is a condition of thought. He thinks that we cannot help but perceive the world temporarily.

谢谢。马克思和克莱尔，法国哲学中还有另一场与此相关的思潮。我们之前提到过'唯灵论者'这个词。在当前语境下，我们需要了解他们的哪些观点？

Thank you. Marx and Clare, there was another movement in French philosophy which has a bearing on this. Already we mentioned the word spiritualists, the spiritualists. What do we need to know about them in this context?

首先需要强调的是，法国哲学语境中的唯灵论并非指与亡灵或超自然现象沟通。这里的唯灵论是一种哲学学说，它主张人类心智具有实在性。

Okay, well first of all it's important to underline that spiritualism in the context of French philosophy is not an interest in communication with spirits beyond the grave or with the occult. Spiritualism here is a philosophical doctrine that affirms the reality of the human mind.

那么它是如何论证这一点的？

So how does it do that?

自17世纪以来，哲学传统多认为：在日常经验中，我们能直接意识到自我是能动性、自由和自主的原则，这与因果性、机械性和必然性法则相对立。自我是自由的，是能动性的体现，是活动的原则；而物质世界则不具备自发性——物质世界中的任何变化都源于外部作用。因此17世纪以来的唯灵论传统始终以自由原则对抗物质世界。到了1860年代的法国，出现了新唯灵论思潮。

Well much of the philosophical tradition from the seventeenth century onwards argues that we have in experience, in everyday experience, we have an immediate awareness of ourselves as a principle of agency, freedom and self determination that's opposed to the causal, mechanical and necessary laws. So the idea is that the self is free, that it's a function of agency, that it's a principle of activity, whereas the material world doesn't have any spontaneity within it. Something happens in the material world only because something else makes it happen. So the spiritualist tradition from the seventeenth century onwards in different ways at different times has opposed a principle of freedom to the material world. Now what happens in the 1860s in France is that there's a new spiritualism.

这种新唯灵论不再满足于将心灵与物质对立，而是更激进地主张物质本身就是心灵的表现。新唯灵论者提出了所谓的'泛心论立场'。柏格森就属于这一新唯灵论传统，他在《时间与自由意志》中...

And this new spiritualism doesn't rest content with opposing mind to matter, but it argues even more radically that matter itself is already an expression of mind. The new spiritualists are advancing what's called a 'pan psychic position'. Now, Berdsson belongs to this new spiritualist tradition and in Time and Free Will looks like That's

这是他的第一部著作。

his first book.

那确实是他出版的第一本书。那是他的博士论文，他的学位论文。论文。看起来他在提出一个二元论的哲学命题。他将时间与空间对立，将心灵与世界对立。

That's his first book indeed. It's his PhD thesis, his doctoral thesis. Thesis. It looks like he's offering a dualist philosophical thesis. He's opposing time to space, mind to world.

但近二十年后在《创造性进化》中，他提出了一个更为成熟彻底的泛心论哲学立场，认为心灵在某种程度上是一切存在之物的本质。

But almost twenty years later in Creative Evolution, he's offering a much more full blown panpsychic philosophical position according to which the mind is somehow at the essence of everything that exists.

你能详细阐述一下时空关系或非关系的概念吗？这对本次讨论非常重要。

Can you develop the idea of the time space relationship or non relationship? It'll very important for this discussion.

好的，理解这个问题的一个角度是思考时间的测量。伯顿认为，当我们测量时间时，其实是在用空间的概念来处理它。我们测量时间的任何单位——小时、分钟、秒——这些单位实际上都源自空间。因此他的论点是，当我们测量时间时

Okay, one way to approach that is to think about the measurement of time. And Burton argues that when we measure time, we're treating it in terms of space. Any of the units that we, with which we measure time, an hour, a minute, a second, any of these units actually derive from space. Therefore his argument is that when we measure time

能再深入解释一下吗？

Can you just develop that a bit more?

好的，这需要展开说明，我们先看看这个论点。伯顿的论点是，当我测量时间时，我其实是通过空间的透镜来看待时间，用空间的棱镜来处理它，而非观察其纯粹状态。举个例子，以小时为单位。伯顿认为时间单位源自空间。

Okay, I mean that will take some unpacking but let's just see what the argument So is the argument is that when I measure time, I'm looking at time through the lens of space. I'm treating it through the prism of space. I'm not looking at it in its purity. Now, so, to answer your question, let's take a unit of time, an hour. So Babson's argument is that a unit of time derives from space.

以小时为例。什么是小时？它是一天的二十四分之一，而一天是地球绕太阳公转一周的时间。地球绕太阳公转是空间中的运动，因此一小时就是这段运动的一个片段。

So let's take an hour. What's an hour? It's onetwenty fourth of a day, and a day is a revolution of the earth around the sun. Now a revolution of the earth around the sun that's a movement in space. So an hour is a chunk of that movement.

这意味着当我们试图测量一个过程所需的时间，比如跑马拉松时，我们可能认为自己在直接处理时间。但柏格森认为，通过时钟所做的，实际上只是在比较两种空间运动——将跑步者的位移与地球绕太阳运行的位移相比较。在此基础上，我们可以计算出跑步者的平均速度，例如用距离除以时间。但柏格森的洞见在于指出：时间的鲜活体验被排除在这个等式之外。

So that means that when we try to measure how long a process takes, let's say running a marathon, when we try to measure how long that takes, we may think that we're dealing directly with time. But all we're doing, Bergson argues, by means of a clock, is comparing two spatial movements to each other. We're comparing the locomotion of the runner with the locomotion of the Earth that's circling the sun. On that basis, I can then work out the average speed of the runner, for example, by dividing the distance over the time. But what Bergson, the insight at which he arrived, is to say that to recognise that the lived experience of time falls out of the equation.

它无法进入物理学家用数学处理时间的方程，因为我们测量时间的单位预设了已经流逝的时间，而非正在流逝的时间。什么是小时？是六十分钟。如果这六十分钟尚未流逝，如果只有四十五或四十六分钟，我们就得不到一小时。因此我们选择的任何时间单位——秒、分、小时——都预设了时间已经过去。

It cannot enter into the physicists' equation dealing with time mathematically because the units with which we measure time presuppose time that has already elapsed, not elapsing time. What's an hour? It's sixty minutes. And if those sixty minutes haven't elapsed, if we've only got forty five or forty six minutes, we haven't got an hour. So any unit of time that we choose a second, a minute, an hour presupposes that the time has already gone, that it's already passed.

柏格森认为，这丝毫没有说明时间流逝的体验。

And it says nothing, Bergson argues, about the experience of the passage of time.

基思，你能接着这个话题深入探讨一下时空问题吗？刚才的介绍非常精彩，请继续推进。

Can you take up then, Keith, let's develop that a bit, this time space business, because that was a terrific introduction, just push it forward.

某种程度上，柏格森试图将时间理解为绵延，他用两个法语词来把握这个概念：temps（时间）和durée（绵延）。他认为二者并不相同。在他看来，绵延包含一种流动、一种交融，是构成时间的不同元素相互渗透的过程，因此我们不能将时间视为离散的元素或组件，比如秒、分、小时。这些只是标记时间的空间符号，却无法解释时间的流逝——在他看来，时间的流逝必须具有这种绵延特性，是一种质性的推进。因此他说这是'无绝对区分的接续'。

Well, in one way Bergson, I think, is trying to think time as duration, and he captures that in the two French words, tant for time and dure for duration. And he's saying they're not the same. Duration involves, as he sees it, a kind of a flow, a flux, an interpenetration of the different elements that make up time so that we can't think of time in terms of discrete elements, discrete components, like seconds or minutes or hours. They're just spatial markers to mark time, but they don't account for the passage of time, which must have this durational quality to it as he sees it, which is a kind of qualitative progression. So he says there's succession without absolute distinction.

某种意义上，他认为过去持续进入当下，过去与当下是共存的。否则我们无法解释时间的流逝。因为如果我们不承认过去与当下存在这种相互渗透，甚至在任何时间体验中过去与当下流逝的共存，我们就只会把时间看作离散可分离的当下线性运动，永远无法把握时间的流动。

So in some sense, he's saying that the past progresses into the present. There's a coexistence of the past and the present. Otherwise, we can't account for the passage of time. Because if we don't suppose that, that there's the there's the kind of interpenetration of past and present, even the coexistence of passage of past and present in any experience of time, we're just gonna see time as a some sort of linear movement of discrete isolable presence, and we'll never get the movement of time.

那么一切都会在当下消亡。

So everything will perish in the present.

确实。在这种时间模型下，你只会得到不断消逝的当下。因此，柏格森试图用'绵延'这个概念来捕捉时间的本质——即时间是由这种特殊的流动或变化构成的，是过去与现在的相互渗透。

Exactly. You just get perpetual perishing presence on that model of time. So duration is trying to capture for Bergson the idea that time is made up of this particular flow or flux, this interpenetration of past and present.

在他所处的更广阔的世界里，超越他所在圈子的那个大环境，这个理论是如何被接受的？

In the world around him, the bigger world, larger than his group as it were, how was this received?

嗯，有些哲学家认为柏格森彻底改变了我们对时间的认知。他做出了重大创新，这将完全改变我们理解时间的方式。这是哲学史上的一个转折点。美国心理学家兼哲学家威廉·詹姆斯就持这种观点，他在二十世纪初期对柏格森推崇备至。

Well, there are some philosophers who think Bergson has changed the whole way we think time. He's made a massive innovation. It will completely change how we think time. It's a turning point in the history of philosophy. This is the position of William James, the American psychologist and philosopher, who appreciates person enormously in the early part of the twentieth century.

另一方面也有批评者，比如著名的伯特兰·罗素，他认为这种理论逻辑不够严密，思维过于模糊，过于依赖直觉等等。所以你看到，一边是威廉·詹姆斯等人盛赞柏格森的贡献，另一边则有罗素这样的反对者。

And then you get detractors and critics such as notably Bertrand Russell, who thinks this is this is not logically rigorous enough. It's it's it's it's it's too it's too woolly in its thinking. It's too intuitive, etcetera. So you've got you've got, on the one hand, people like William James claiming Bergson's made a major contribution, then he got detractors like Bertrand Russell.

让我们深入探讨这点。艾米丽，艾米丽·托马斯，柏格森从进化论中汲取了什么？因为根据我的理解，这在基斯皮关于'绵延'的论述中占据了重要位置。

Let's develop that. Emily, Emily Thomas, what did Bergson draw from the theories of evolution? Because that played a big part in what Keespie talked about in his duration, idea of the duration of time as far as I understand it.

确实如此。我认为当进化论在十九世纪中叶开始盛行时，人们早已认识到物种会不断更替，灭绝是可能发生的。但达尔文真正强调的是时间在这个过程中扮演的角色。如果你阅读达尔文及其同代人的著作，会看到这样的表述：'给予足够的时间，它能造山移海；给予足够的时间，它能孕育物种。'实际上，这意味着时间接管了传统上属于上帝的创造与毁灭、诞生与灭绝的权能。

It does, absolutely. I think that when evolution started getting big in the mid nineteenth century, had known for a long time that species come in and out of existence, that extinctions were possible. But something that Darwin really stressed was that time has a role in making this happen. So if you read Darwin and the people around him, you get lines like give time long enough and it can make mountains give time long enough and it can bring species into existence. And in effect, what's happening there is that time is taking over the role traditionally assigned to God of creation and destruction, creation and extinction.

我认为在那个时期，哲学家们分成了两派。许多哲学家通过彻底否定时间的实在性来否定进化的真实性。而另一方面，像柏格森这样的哲学家则完全接纳了这点。他认同时间是一种本体论力量，是存在的动力。这个观点在他早期著作中已有体现，而在1907年的《创造的进化》中得到了充分展现。

And I think at that point, philosophers went in one of two ways. So lots of philosophers began denying the reality of time altogether as a way of denying the reality of evolution. On the other hand, philosophers like Bergson just embrace this. He just gets on board with this idea that time is an ontological force, a force of being. And I think this is implicit in his early work and then it really comes out full strength in Creative Evolution, 1907.

在《创造性进化》中

And in Creative Evolution

那是他最受欢迎的书。

That's his most popular book.

他最受欢迎的书。正是这本书真正让他走进了

His most popular book. It was the book that really brought him to

大众

the

的视野。突然间他提出，正是通过时间，进化才带给我们全新的形态，这些形态是无法预见或预测的。

masses. And suddenly he's saying that it is through time that evolution brings us wholly new forms, forms that could not have been foreseen or predicted.

因此他的意思是时间在流动，而非一系列静态快照。

So therefore he's saying that time is flowing, It isn't a number of static photographs.

完全正确。对柏格森而言，过去之所以参与到现在，在于过去是真实存在的。所以对柏格森来说，过去是真实的，而未来是虚幻的。它尚待书写。随着时间流逝前行，我们也在前行，那些虚幻的特征逐渐变为现实，并由此创造出这些新形态。

Absolutely. So for Bergson the past is involved in the present insofar as saying that the past is actually real. So for Bergson, the past is real, but the future is unreal. It's yet to be written. And as time flows on and moves, we move, the unreal feature becomes real, and with that we generate these new forms.

基思想进来。

Keith wants to come in.

柏格森喜欢用音乐或聆听旋律的例子来说明他试图思考绵延的方式。当我们思考这个例子时，我们在聆听一段音乐时究竟在做什么？柏格森会说，我们聆听音乐时，听到的并非仅仅是离散可分离音符的连续。对我们而言，音符是相互渗透的，它们彼此交融。

One example Bergson likes to give as a way of thinking, the way he's trying to think duration, is the example of music or listening to a melody. So when you think of that example, what what are we doing when we're listening to a piece of music? And Burton would say, when we listen to music, we're not listening to simply a succession of discrete isolable notes. The notes for us permeate one another. They melt into one another.

音符仿佛相互包裹。当我们聆听音乐时，我们形成了一个有机整体。这正是他希望用来思考我们自身对时间作为绵延的体验，以及我们如何看待进化的方式。

It's as if they're enveloped in one another. And what we do when we listen to pieces of music, we form an organic whole. And that's how he wants to think both our own experience of time as duration and how we think evolution.

马克，我能过来找你吗？柏格森如何理解时间的量化方法？这又将他引向何方？

Can I come across to you, Mark? What did Bergson understand by a quantitative approach to time? And where does that take him?

时间的量化方法是通过数字来测量时间。但他将时间的量化方法与质化方法区分开来。他区分了量的多样性与质的多样性。

A quantitative approach to time is to measure time by means of number. But he distinguishes the quantitative approach to time from a qualitative approach to time. He distinguishes between a quantitative multiplicity and a qualitative multiplicity.

我觉得你需要再解释一遍这些概念。

I feel you have to go over those again.

好的。我是说，这些术语听起来很神秘。这里有个例子

Right. I mean, these these sound seem like mysterious terms. So here's the example

什么是数量上的多样性？对。

What's quantitative multiplicity? Right.

这是他提供的例子。明白吗？就是倾听整点报时的钟声。想象我们在威斯敏斯特，听到大本钟在凌晨五点敲响。贝尔顿说，此刻我可以用两种方式理解这个体验。

Here's the example that he provides. Okay? And it's listening to a bell ringing on the hour. Imagine we're in Westminster, we hear Big Ben, and it's 05:00. Now, I can take this experience in one of two ways, says Belton.

如果我想知道具体时间，可以明确数出钟声敲击的次数。我可以边听边数：一、二、三、四、五。但贝尔顿认为，若要在完整意义上确认钟声确实敲了五次，就需要将这五次声响以空间并置的方式在脑海中呈现。最直观的方法就是用手指计数：一、二、三、四，加上大拇指。

If I want to know what time it is, I can count explicitly the number of times that the bell is struck. Now I can do that by saying one, two, three, four, five as I hear it. But if at the end of the process I want to be sure that the bell has been struck really five times, and if I want to count in the fullest sense of the word, Belton argues that I need to represent the five sounds to myself in as simultaneous and in space. Now I can do that quite obviously by counting on my fingers. One, two, three, four, and my thumb.

五。我数完了。也可以在脑中完成：想象五个并排物体进行计数。但柏格森在此处的首要论点是：当我把时间当作可量化的空间来处理时，就必然需要空间的介入。

Five. I've counted. I can do it in my head also. I can imagine five things next to each other and I can count those. But Bergson's argument, the first part of his argument here, is that when I treat space as time as a quantity, that requires the intervention of space.

但如果我不想知道时间，对这些连续声响仅作为纯粹的时间流动来感知，而不将其空间化呈现，那么我就停留在基思早先描述的时间之流中。这种时间流如同延展的基底，先于任何可被抽象提取的具体时刻。贝尔顿试图让我们看到：连续性的体验中存在多样性，但这种多样性不是量化的，无法简单相加，也不是由可累计的孤立单元构成。

But if I don't want to know, if I'm not particularly interested in what time it is, and if I hear the succession of the sounds as a pure succession without representing that succession to myself in spatial terms, then I remain with what Keith described earlier as the flow of time. And this flow of time is like a stretch that precedes any particular instance that I might be able to abstract and extract from it. Now, so what Belton is trying to get us to see is that there's a multiplicity in the experience of succession, but it's not quantitative. It's not something that we can add up. It's not composed of isolated individual units that we can add up.

基思，桑斯尔·皮尔森。既然大本钟已被引入讨论，我们来谈谈时钟时间。时钟时间、量子时间与人类时间体验有何区别？让我们回到他研究的起点之一——人类的时间体验。

Keith, Thansle Pearson. Let's talk about clock time then, as Big Ben has been introduced into the discussion. What's the difference between clock time and quantum time and human experience of time? Let's get back work towards the human experience of time, which is is one of his starting points.

嗯，时钟时间

Well, clock time

嗯，也许是时钟时间与心理时间的对比。是的。

Well, maybe clock time versus psychological time. Yeah.

对柏格森来说，我认为他会将时钟时间视为一种有用的简化。它之所以有用，是因为它帮助我们控制和规范社会生活，组织我们的社会生活。所以它具有非常实用的功能，具有实际效用。我们之所以有时钟时间，并将时间划分为不同的片段，是有原因的。

Well, for Bergson, I think Bergson would see clock time as a useful simplification. For it's useful because it helps us control, regulate our social life and organize our social life. So it's got a very practical function. It's got a practical utility to it. There's reasons why we have clock time, and we divide time into distinct segments.

但这在柏格森看来，并不能捕捉心理时间的体验，因为它具有这种质的进展，涉及过去与现在的相互渗透。所以柏格森实际上是在说

That doesn't, for Bergson, capture the experience of psychological time because it has this qualitative progression to it involving this interpenetration of past and and present. So Bergson's really saying that So

时钟时间没有过去吗？不。但当它敲响四点时，你不记得它敲过五点吗？你记得之前敲过四点吗？

clock time has no past? No. But the when you when it strikes four, don't you remember it struck five? Do you remember it struck four before?

是的。但我没有那种时间持续性的体验，即过去不断向现在推进。我看到

Yeah. But I don't have that durational experience of time where the past continues to progress into the present. I'm seeing

你是说它们流入其中？

them flow into it, you mean?

它并不流入

It doesn't flow in

一小时前的时光已被遗忘，但它仍存于我们的记忆中。

hours an hour ago and we've forgotten. But it's in our memory.

是的，它存在于记忆中。没错。但这不是一种质性进程的记忆。

Yeah. It's in our memory. Yep. That's right. But it's not the memory of a of a kind of qualitative progression.

怎么不是？

How not?

如果我们这样想——考虑到我们在思考时钟时间时，实际上是在用定量单位（秒、小时等）来思考。或许可以参考柏格森在《时间与自由意志》首部著作中关于情感及其自我呈现的论述。我们常认为情感是强度变化（比如快乐或悲伤的程度），但柏格森指出这种看法存在误区，因为情感本质上是质性变化。举个例子——

Well, if you think of it let's think of it maybe in terms of some given what what what we're doing when we're thinking clock time, we're thinking in terms of quantitative units, seconds, hours, and so on. You could think of it perhaps in terms of how Bergs Bergsons got a lot to say in Time and Free Will, his first book, about emotions and how we represent emotions to ourselves. So we tend to think that emotions are intensities in the sense of something I feel more or less happy, more or less sad. And Bergson says, well, that's that's kind of mistaken in a way because emotions are involved in qualitative changes. So if you take something like let me give you an example.

比如体验到某种深刻的内心喜悦，这种喜悦可能源于一种简单的惊叹：我们意识到自己活着并存在于世，这让我们感到快乐。柏格森会说，这种感受并非数量上的增减，而是嵌入在一系列质性变化中。当你感到快乐时，并非'快乐程度增加'这种量化体验，也不是强度上的简单累积。

That would be the experience of some profound inner joy, and that might arise out of some simple astonishment that you we have at our we feel we're alive and we're in the world, and that makes us joyful. And Bergson would say, when you experience that feeling, it's not as if there's an increase or decrease quantitatively because that emotion is implicated in a series of qualitative changes. So when you when you feel joyful, it's not, oh, you feel an increase in joy. It's not that you feel it in a quantitative sense. It's not as if it's literally more and more intense.

而是你感受到快乐本身变得越来越丰盈。这并非程度差异或数量区别，而是向你揭示某种根本性的质变。

It's that you're feeling your joys becoming richer and richer. And so it's not simply displaying a difference of degree, a numerical difference or a quantitative difference. It's actually revealing to you some fundamental qualitative change.

艾米丽，基思刚才的论述如何反驳柏格森所批判的科学观？他的观点如何对抗当时那种赋予科学特权的胜利主义思潮？

Emily, how does what Keith has just said work against the science which Bergson was criticising? How does what he's just said work against the idea, the triumphalist idea at that time, of the privileges accorded to science?

我不认为柏格森是想说科学测量的时间是错误的。他当然不想说它没用。只是想指出它遗漏了全貌。如果你想理解时间的真正本质，就必须关注我们内在心理体验的真实绵延。仅仅看科学的时钟时间是不够的。

I don't think Bergson wants to say that time as science measures it is wrong. He certainly doesn't want to say it's useless. Just wants to say that it's missing the full picture. That if you want to understand the true nature of time, you have to look to our inner psychological experience of true duration. It's not enough to look at the clock time of science.

这当然导致了与科学家的冲突，最著名的就是爱因斯坦。对爱因斯坦来说，时钟时间就是时间的本质。尽管柏格森完全认同时钟时间对科学很有用——他确实对物理学很感兴趣并赞扬了爱因斯坦的理论——但他认为那并非时间的真正本质。

What this led to, of course, was clashes with scientists, most famously Einstein. So for Einstein, clock time is the nature of time. And although Bergson is perfectly happy to allow that clock time is useful to science, he was really interested in physics and praised Einstein's theories. He just thinks that that is not the true nature of time.

他不认为坚持这个观点就能触及我们体验时间的真实本质。他是否说过存在区别？科学对时间有自己（让我们直白地说）可能简单化的理解，而我们体验时间的方式却不同。我们的体验与时钟不同。

He doesn't think it's the true nature of the way just to stick to this point the true nature of the way that we experience time. Does he say there are distinctions, there's this scientific idea of how science let's be very straightforward about it simple maybe experiences time, but then there's how we experience time. We experience different from a clock.

这绝对正确。真的，我们

That's definitely true. Really We're

从这里从头开始。

starting at the beginning here.

博士说得对。我真心希望我们以不同方式体验时间。

Doctor Absolutely. I really hope that we experience time differently.

你可以随时使用它。

You can use it anytime you want.

好的，完全同意。

Okay, Absolutely.

我认为可以这样理解：你可以说科学中以特定方式运用时间，而另一个完全不同的领域则探讨人类如何体验时间。你可以将它们分开看待。但我不认为这是柏格森的研究方向。我认为他的研究是在追问时间的本质究竟是什么？

I think I Okay, so here's one way you could go. You could say time is used in certain ways in science, and a whole different enterprise is asking how humans experience time. You could just divide them off. I don't think that Bergson's project. I think his project is asking what is the true nature of time?

而且我认为他是在说物理学家遗漏了一些东西。

And I think he's saying the physicist is missing stuff out.

马克，你想加入讨论吗？

Mark, in you want to come in?

是的，艾米丽刚才提到爱因斯坦，柏格森想要说明的是：当二十世纪相对论将时间视为空间的第四维度时，这对柏格森来说并不特别令人惊讶。因为对时间的数学测量早已将时间空间化，早已通过空间的棱镜来看待时间。所以我们不应惊讶于科学发展中将时间视为类似第四维度的做法。

Yes, Emily mentioned Einstein there, what Bergson wants to show is that when, with relativity theory in the twentieth century, we start to treat time as a fourth dimension of space, There's nothing particularly surprising in that for Bergson, because the mathematical measurement of time has already spatialized time, is already seeing time through the prism of space. So we shouldn't be surprised that in the development of the sciences we treat time as something akin to a fourth dimension.

柏格森以积极的方式使用'混淆'这个词。

Burkson uses the word 'confusion' in a positive way.

他确实如此，没错。

He does indeed, yes.

你这话是什么意思？

What do you mean by that?

嗯，他确实有所追求，我认为他追求的是时间和自由意志。他将持续时间的体验描述为一种困惑的体验。

Well he does wanting, I think it's just wanting time and free will. He characterises the experience of duration as an experience of confusion.

什么被混淆了？

What's confused?

没错，首先是我们自身的体验。但为了理解这一点，让我们回想一下十七世纪的笛卡尔，当他试图确立我们能够确定知道什么时。他说我们应当只依赖那些清晰明确的概念。这是笛卡尔哲学方法的核心。但柏格森领悟到，我们生命中最根本的层面——塑造我们之所以为人的本质——既非清晰也非明确。

Right, our experience first of all. But to put this in context, let's think of Descartes in the seventeenth century when he's trying to establish what it is we can know for certain. He says that we should rely only on those ideas that are clear and distinct. That's the essential element of Descartes' philosophical method. But Belsen arrives at the insight that the most fundamental aspect of our lives, that which makes us who and what we are, is neither clear nor distinct.

它不清晰是因为持续时间并非心智的对象。它就是心智本身。我无法通过通常用来把握空间事物的空间范畴来认识它。因此持续时间在'不清晰'的意义上是混淆的，但它在另一个意义上也是混淆的。如果我们看'confused'这个词，它的意思是'融合在一起'。

It's not clear because duration is not an object for the mind. It is the mind. And I can't know it by means of the spatial categories with which I already by which I normally grasp spatial things. So duration is confused in the sense that it's not clear, but duration is confused in another sense. If we look at the word 'confused', it says 'fused with'.

柏格森想表达的是，存在着现在与过去、未来的融合，这种融合先于我们按照时间线来想象时间，并将未来、现在和过去明确区分开来。那种区分需要空间概念。时间线的概念需要空间。在空间介入之前，我们有着这种相互渗透的融合，过去消融于现在之中。

And what Bergson is driving at is that there is a fusion of the present with the past and the future which is prior to my imagining time according to a timeline and separating, very clearly, the future from the present and the past. That requires space. The idea of a timeline requires space. Prior to the intervention of space, we have this fusion into penetration and the the the past melting into the present.

这就涉及到记忆了，对吧？这是他论证的重要部分。是的。

This brings in memory, doesn't it? Which is a big part of his argument. Yeah.

在《时间与自由意志》中，我认为柏格森暗示了记忆在此起着重要作用，以便将时间理解为绵延，但书中可能仅有一处提及记忆，而这后来成为他1896年出版的第二部著作《物质与记忆》的核心。我认为柏格森再次为我们的记忆观念带来了多项关键创新。他是最早提出需要区分不同类型记忆的哲学家之一：一方面是习惯性记忆，另一方面则是他称之为独立心理回忆的事物。习惯性记忆就像我们通过重复学习骑自行车的过程，我们形成各种习惯并保留关于学习这一过程的特定记忆。

In Time and Free Will, Bergson, I think, is imply it's implicit that memory is is doing a lot of work here in order to think time is duration, but he only has maybe one reference to memory in the book, and that then becomes the focus of his second book published in 1896, Matter and Memory. And I think Bergson is making again a number of key innovations to our thinking of memory. So he's one of the first philosophers to say we need to distinguish between different types of memory. So there's habit memory on the one hand, and then there would be something like that he would call independent psychological recollection. So habit memory would be like how we learn to ride a bike through repetition, and that we contract various habits and we form certain memories of how we learn that process.

而另一种记忆则可能类似于回忆初次骑车到乡间的经历，聆听

And then there might be something like the recollection of my first experience of going out on the bike into the countryside, listening

着

to

鸟鸣，产生各种情感体验等等。这些将是不同类型的记忆。柏格森在

the birds, having various emotional feelings and so on. So that would be those would be different kinds of memories. Bergson's also highly innovative in

如何

how

诠释感知与记忆关系方面也极具创新性。他认为，通常我们思考二者关系时会这样想：我们在某个实际当下获得感知，之后可能在某个时间点形成对该感知的回忆。但由于柏格森对绵延的思考——其中包含过去与现在的共存——他主张记忆与感知是同时发生的。只是我们在日常行为中通常意识不到这一点。

he construes the relationship between perception and memory. So he would say, typically, when we think of the the relation between the two, we think like this. We think we have a perception in some actual present, and then maybe at a later point in time, we'll form a recollection of that perception. But Bergson, because of his thinking of duration, which involves this coexistence of past and present, wants to say that memory is coterminous with perception. But we're not normally aware of that in our comportment in the world.

所以当我们看见某物时，我们同时也在看见它并记住它。

So we see when we see something, we at the same time see it and remember it.

没错。所以

Exactly. So

记忆回到了无意识层面的存储状态

memory goes back to the unconscious sort of stored

对，没错。

up Exactly.

改天再谈。

For another day.

正是如此。这就是他认为可以解释既视感体验的方式。显然，既视感是一种奇特的体验。我经历过，或许你也经历过。

Exactly. And this is how he thinks you can explain the experience of deja vu. Obviously, the the experience of deja vu is an uncanny experience. I've experienced it. Maybe you've experienced it.

这是一种你正在经历曾经经历过的事情的感觉。柏格森说这不可能是真实的，只是一种错觉。那么我们如何解释这种体验？柏格森会说，在既视感体验中发生的是，你正在经历通常不会经历的事——你在实际感知的同时，正在经历对该感知记忆的形成过程。

And it's the feeling that you're living through something that you've already lived through before. Now Bergson says that can't be true. It's an illusion. So how do we explain that experience? And Bergson say would say that what's happening in that experience of deja vu is that you're experiencing something you do not normally experience, which is that you experience in some actual perception, you're experiencing the formation of the memory of that perception at the same time.

或许时间会让你产生放缓的感觉，这也可能是体验的一部分。但柏格森指出，你实际上正在形成未来的识别能力——你正在当下为当下创造记忆。

Maybe time has the feeling that it's slowing down for you, and that could be part of the experience. But what you're doing, Bergson says, is that you're forming a recognition to come. You're forming a memory of the present in the present itself.

许多已讨论的内容，艾米丽·托马斯，确实让实证主义者非常恼火，因为他通过心理和人类经验提出了与数学截然不同的时间观，尽管两者都涉及数学。你能详细阐述一下吗？

A lot of what's been said, a great deal of what's been said, Emily Thomas, must have annoyed the positivists very much indeed because he's given an entirely different view of time using psychological and human experiences compared with mathematics, although both involve mathematics. So can you develop that please?

我可以。实证主义者显然对柏格森不满。他们认为哲学观点应基于科学、数学、冷静清晰的理性推理。而柏格森却说哲学应基于直觉——这个词他本人欣然使用。

I can. The positivists were certainly not happy with Bergson. For the positivists we should be basing our philosophical views on science, on mathematics, on calm, clear, rational reasoning. And here's Bergson saying that we should be basing our philosophy on intuition. I mean that's the word that he himself happily uses.

这听起来既不科学也不数学。恰恰是实证主义者极力反对的观点。他们对柏格森非常不满，但并非所有人都如此。

And that doesn't sound scientific or mathematical. That sounds like exactly the kind of thing that the positivists were so opposed to. They were very unhappy with Bergson. But not everybody was.

他们为何如此反对'直觉'这个词？因为无法证明它。

Why were they so opposed to the word intuition? Because you couldn't prove it.

实际上我比实证主义者更认同柏格森。在我看来，柏格森想利用的是我们的内省经验——这种经验在科学和生活中无处不在。我认为他用'直觉'这个词反而帮了倒忙，不如称之为'内在体验'更合适。

I actually have more sympathy with Bergson than the positivist did. So it seems to me that what Bergson wants to do is use our experience of introspection. And that seems to me to be something that actually we use all the time in science and life. And so the idea I actually think he doesn't help himself by calling it intuition. Think I it would be better if he called it internal experience, something like that.

我们都知道看见颜色是什么感受——这是人类的共同经验，很难说是直觉。柏格森可能会说，体验时间流动也是同理。

You know, we all know what it is to see a colour. We all have that shared experience. And that doesn't seem to be an intuition. I think Bergson could argue that experiencing the flow of time is the same as that.

事实上是学生们鼓励他使用'直觉'这个词。在《时间与自由意志》首部著作中，他确实提到了直接统觉和内在体验。所以'直觉'这个词多少有些偶然性。他说本可以不用这个词，但使用后确实让他被指责为反理性主义——这算是对'为何科学家和实证主义者不满其方法'的回应。

He was encouraged to use the word intuition in fact by his students. And in the first book, In Time and Free Will, he does talk about an immediate apperception and an internal experience. So the word itself, intuition, is more or less accidental. He says he could have not used it at all, but using it did open him to accusations of irrationalism. I mean that's a response to your question why were scientists positivists unhappy with his approach?

因为本质上它是在说，存在一种超越理性且无法通过理性解释的经验基本层面。

Because in essence it's saying there's a fundamental aspect of experience that goes beyond reason and can't be accounted for by means of reason.

这对实证主义者来说是不可接受的吗？

And that was unacceptable to the positivists?

是的，我想以不同的方式来说，但确实如此。

Yes, yes in different ways I imagine, but yes.

抱歉，你想再补充一下吗？

Sorry, you want to come back?

但当然这不是科学家们对他不满的唯一原因。与爱因斯坦的争执也起了很大作用。如果爱因斯坦的广义相对论是正确的，那么时间取决于你的参考系。这意味着宇宙范围内不存在统一的‘现在’时刻，也不存在宇宙范围的同步性。

But of course that wasn't the only reason scientists were unhappy with him. The row with Einstein also had a huge part to play. So if Einstein's general theory of relativity is true, then what time it is depends on your frame of reference. It means that there is no universe wide now moment. There's no universe wide simultaneity.

而伯格森似乎直接否认了相对论的这一推论。为此他确实遭到了物理学家的嘲笑。

And Bergson seems to just flat out deny that consequence of relativity. For that he was really ridiculed by physicists.

我们能发展我

Can we develop I

我认为这比那更复杂一些，因为柏格森理解爱因斯坦相对论所带来的影响——即不存在绝对时间，也不存在普适时间。但他想捍卫另一种关于普适时间的观念，认为如果我们认真对待作为经验的时间，它必须具有绵延的维度。无论你的参照系是什么，时间都必须具备这种绵延性。

think it's a little more complex than that in the sense that I think Bergson understands the implications of what Einstein's done with his theory of relativity, that there's there's there's no absolute time. There's no universal time. But he wants to defend an alternative conception of universal time, saying that if we take time serious as an experience, it must have a durational dimension to it. Whatever your frame of reference is, it must have a durational dimension.

所以柏格森在与爱因斯坦的讨论和争论中，实际上是在尝试实现科学与哲学的和解。这绝非哲学对科学的对抗，而是一种调和的精神。这种精神贯穿于他的许多作品，尤其是当他涉足科学文献时关于记忆的研究。虽然有时带有批判色彩，但更多是试图将两种话语体系融合。

So what Bergson's trying to do in his discussion, his argument with Einstein, is in fact trying to effect a reconciliation of science and philosophy. It's not an affirmation of philosophy against science at all, but it's a spirit of reconciliation. And that permeates a lot of his work his work on memory whenever he's engaging with the scientific literature. Sometimes there's critical note, but often it's an attempt to bring the two discourses together.

我们不能忽视一个事实：他在欧洲和美国哲学界备受推崇，拥有广泛读者。就连强烈反对他的伯特兰·罗素也承认他异常受欢迎等等。那三四十年是他人生中的鼎盛时期。

We mustn't escape from the fact that he was extremely highly regarded through Europe and in America by other philosophers, very widely read. Even Bertrand Russell who was very against him said he was extraordinary popular and so on and so forth. Was that period in his life, thirty or forty years.

是的。肯定是在19...

Yeah. Certainly between '19 And a

比如对作家们的巨大影响

great influence on writers for instance

哦对，我认为1907到1917年间是柏格森的黄金时期。他对文学现代主义和文化现代主义的影响极其深远。当时有各种作家都在吸收柏格森的思想并运用到小说创作中。比如受他启发的美国作家群体：薇拉·凯瑟、格特鲁德·斯泰因、威廉·福克纳。还有受柏格森'时间即流动'理念影响的现代主义运动，比如未来主义。

Oh yeah, between 1907 and 1917 I'd say when Bergson's in his prominent element. And his influence on literary literary and cultural modernism is just enormous. So there's all kinds of writers at the time that are soaking up Bergson's ideas and applying them to to novels. So we've got a whole set of American writers who were inspired and influenced by Bergson such as Willa Cather, Gertrude Stein, William Faulkner. And then there's certain modernist movements inspired by Bergson's celebration of time as flow or flux such as the futurists.

还有一些我认为本质上书写时间的小说家，他们运用柏格森思想的程度是个开放性问题——有些人甚至否认自己是柏格森式小说家，但显然都受其影响。最典型的例子当属普鲁斯特的《追忆似水年华》对记忆的关注，以及弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫。

And then you've got novelists who I think are primarily novelists of time, and it's an open question to what extent they deploy Bergson's ideas, to what extent they're they kind of denied they were Bergsonian novelists, but certainly they're influenced by him. Two best examples I can think of are obviously Proust, In Search of Lost Time, his concern with memory and Virginia Woolf.

我们在这里看到的是他处于巅峰时期，然后在20年代末，尤其是二战后，他失势了，我是说，比伊卡洛斯坠落得还快，不是吗？那时候看起来一切都结束了。你认为为什么会这样？

We have him at his height here and then certainly in the late '20s and then certainly after World War II he fell from grace, I mean, faster than Icarus, didn't he? Mean, it was over, it seemed then. Why did that happen, do you think?

我认为与爱因斯坦的争执有很大关系。他们在1922年公开辩论过。而柏格森，我认为，被普遍视为败方。你说得对，对他的相对论观点确实存在不同解读，但说实话这么解读的人不多。伯特兰·罗素更是雪上加霜，你知道的，当时最著名的英语作家。

I think the row with Einstein had a lot to do with it. They engaged together in a public debate in 1922. And Bergson, I think, was perceived to be the loser. You're absolutely right that there are alternative readings of his views on relativity, but not many people read him that way, I think it's fair to say. What really didn't help either was Bertrand Russell, you know, the biggest Anglophone writer at the time.

他可是写了《西方哲学史》的人。他把柏格森批得体无完肤。说柏格森是翻腾的智慧之海，还把他比作OXO调味块的广告商，说就像OXO广告靠花哨吸引人那样，柏格森的学说也毫无实质论证。

He literally wrote the history of Western philosophy. And he slams Bergson. You know, he writes that Bergson is a heaving sea of intellect. He compares Bergson to the advertisers of Oxo, you know, Oxo cubes, saying that just in the same way that the advertisers of OXO rely on their adverts to be sort of intrinsically picturesque and desirable, Bergson does exactly the same. There's no arguments for his views.

罗素认为柏格森的理论只是表面诱人。罗素对柏格森的猛烈抨击，我认为对其声望衰落起了关键作用。

He just thinks that they're appealing. I mean, Russell goes to town on Bergson, and I think that has a huge part to play in his downfall.

这确实解释了柏格森在英美学术界的境遇。但我认为他影响力在二战后衰退还有其他原因。比如柏格森从未建立学派。战后也没有设立柏格森档案馆，这类机构通常能确保哲学思想被新一代学者延续研究。

That's certainly true in the case of the Anglo American reception of Bergson. But I think there's other reasons as to why Bergson's influence wanes after the especially after the Second World War. A number of reasons I can think of. One is that there's Berkson never establishes a school. There's no Berkson archive set up after the war, which can often make sure philosophers' ideas endure and are taken up by new scholars and new researchers.

而且柏格森的哲学基调过于乐观，这与二战后欧洲盛行的存在主义思潮格格不入——后者本质上是种绝望哲学。

And I think Bergson is a very optimistic philosopher, and that doesn't fit well with the mood in Europe at the end of the Second World War when existentialism becomes the the most fashionable philosophy and is a larger philosophy of despair.

没错，说到存在主义。

Yes, and to the existentialism.

关于最后一点，我想补充一下。我认为这些都正确，但有一个在法国显而易见却未被其他地方提及的观点，那就是柏格森在第一次世界大战中的干预。1914年，他发表了反德的好战言论，并动用其哲学范畴来支持这一立场。1920年代他因此遭到猛烈抨击，成为多篇尖锐批评小册子的靶子。

Well, if I could just take up that last point. I mean, I think all of that is right, but there's one point that we've not mentioned that's really obvious in France but not discussed elsewhere, and that's Bergson's interventions in the First World War. In 1914 he's making bellicose anti German discourses and he's also mobilising his own philosophical categories in order to do that. Now he was savaged for this in the 1920s. He's the subject of several bitter critical pamphlets.

为什么？因为当时出现了新一代更具国际主义、反帝国主义甚至马克思主义倾向的思想家，他们认为这种民族主义不过是沙文主义。例如朱利安·邦达1927年所著《知识分子的背叛》一书。在邦达看来，柏格森与绝大多数欧洲知识分子一样沉溺于民族主义和沙文主义，他更指出柏格森哲学中的非理性主义与1914年的民族主义存在直接关联。

Why? Why? Because there was a whole new generation of more internationalist, anti imperialist and sometimes Marxist thinkers for whom this sort of nationalism was just chauvinism. An example is Julien Bondin, The Treason of the Intellectuals, a book written in 1927. And not only for Bondi is Bergson, one of the vast majority of European intellectuals succumbing to nationalism and chauvinism, but he argues that there's a direct line between the supposed irrationalism of Bersand's philosophy and the nationalism in 1914.

尽管如此，如今他正重获青睐，越来越多像在座诸位这样的学者开始研究他——

Nevertheless, winding up, he's now coming back into favour, he's much more studied by persons like He's your good selves around this

确实在复兴，但我想补充他在英美世界也曾风靡一时。罗素虽重创其声誉，但二十世纪初英美哲学界并非只有罗素。许多哲学家都吸收了柏格森思想，比如亚瑟·爱丁顿、塞缪尔·亚历山大、

coming back into fashion but I also want to add that he was in fashion in the Anglo American world as well. So Russell was a huge figure, he decimated his reputation. But Russell was not the only philosopher working in early twentieth century Britain and America. And there were several other philosophers who really took up Bergsonian ideas. So for example, people like Arthur Eddington, Samuel Alexander, C.

C.D.布罗德、苏珊·斯特宾等早期分析哲学家都借鉴了他关于时间真实流动的观点，有些人甚至接受'过去真实而未来虚幻'的主张。无论是否指名道姓，柏格森都是其思想根源，女性哲学家群体中尤为明显。

D. Broad, Susan Stebbing, these are all early analytic philosophers that borrowed Bergson's idea that time really flows. Some of them go so far as to adopt his view that the past is real and the future is unreal. And sometimes they name Bergson, sometimes they don't, but he's definitely at the root of their thinking. And that's also true of several women philosophers in particular.

非常感谢各位。衷心感谢艾米丽·托马斯、马克斯与克莱尔、基思·安塞尔·皮尔森。下周我们将探讨玛丽·雪莱18岁创作的《弗兰肯斯坦》中哥特恐怖与浪漫主义的交融。感谢收听。

Well, thank you very much indeed. Thank you very much, Emily Thomas, Marks and Claire, Keith Ansel Pearson. And next week, Gothic horror meets romance in Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, written when she was 18. Thank you for listening.

现在《我们的时代》播客将延长片刻，播放梅尔文与嘉宾们的额外访谈内容。

And the In Our Time podcast gets some extra time now with a few minutes of bonus material from Melvin and his guests.

尽管二战后柏格森在法国某种程度上已不再是时髦的哲学家，但所有二十世纪法国主要哲学家，无论他们持何种批判态度，都在回应柏克，感到必须回应柏克的焦虑。确实如此。萨特如此，梅洛-庞蒂如此，而二战后最重要的法国哲学家吉尔·德勒兹显然也是如此，他在很大程度上推动了当今柏格森思想的复兴，因为他的思想本质上是柏格森主义的。

Although Bergson, to some extent, is not the fashionable philosopher anymore in France after the Second World War, all French philosophers, major French philosophers of the twentieth century, however critical they are, are responding to Burke, feel compelled to respond to Burke's anxiety. Indeed. So it's true of Sartre, it's true of Melo Ponce and then obviously the most perhaps important French philosopher of the post Second World War period is Gilles de Leuz and he's largely responsible for the revitalisation today of interest in Bergson because he's fundamentally a Bergsonian in his thinking.

如果我说错了请纠正我，但在我看来这种复兴几乎完全局限于法国及欧陆哲学界。我认为在英语哲学界，柏格森仍然鲜为人知。

You correct me if you think I'm wrong, but it seems to me this resurgence is almost entirely within the world of French and then continental philosophy. I think Anglophone philosophy Bergson is still fairly unknown.

确实如此，人们现在编写时间哲学教材时仍可以不提柏格森，这相当引人注目。但我感觉这种情况正在改变，不同传统正在交融，未来要完全忽视柏格森恐怕就不太可能了。

Well yes, people can write textbooks on the philosophy of times without mentioning Belzan and still now at the moment, which is fairly remarkable. But I think I get the sense that that is changing, that there's a meeting of different traditions now and that it won't quite be so possible to ignore Baozan entirely.

我希望这是真的。特别是在我的研究中，我想展示他如何构成许多早期分析哲学时间观的基础。

I hope that's true. And certainly in my own work I want to show how he's at the root of so many of these early analytic views about the passage of time, for example.

但这要从麦克塔格特开始不是吗？我是说麦克塔格特1908年写了篇著名论文《时间的非实在性》

But it begins with McTaggart doesn't it? Mean McTaggart writes an essay, a famous essay on time in 1908 called On the Unreality of Time

这标题已经说明了一切。

which does what it says on the tin.

而且他文中完全没有提及柏格森，这非常奇怪。

And he doesn't mention Bergson and it's really odd.

公平地说，我认为麦克塔格特对伯格森的世界观完全不感兴趣。在我看来，麦克塔格特关注的全是康德、黑格尔和莱布尼茨。

To be fair to McTaggart, I don't think he's into Bergson's world at all. I think for McTaggart, it's all about Canton, Hegel and Leibniz.

是的，但伯格森也是从那个传统中衍生出来的。

Yeah, but Bergson derives from that tradition too.

确实如此。但我认为麦克塔格特并未真正参与其中。在二十世纪初期发生的思想运动中，麦克塔格特只占了很小的一部分。问题是如今我们编写教科书时，麦克塔格特却被放大了。我认为这是对历史的扭曲。

He does. But I, but McTaggart isn't engaging with it. What was going on in the early twentieth century, I think McTaggart was a very small part of. The problem is that when we're writing textbooks now, McTaggart becomes huge. And I think that's a distortion of the history.

嗯。我

Yeah. I

或许可以再补充一点，进一步谈谈伯格森如何影响现代主义及文学现代派作家。以弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫这样的小说家为例，在她二十年代的作品《达洛维夫人》中，就能看到对钟表时间与心理时间的关注。小说中，大本钟的钟声不断穿插于构成叙事的事件之间，同时又有心理时间体验的侵入——角色们经历着过去与记忆，这些完全侵占了他们对现实或当下任何时刻的感知。她确实是位深刻探讨时间主题的小说家。

mean maybe one other point just to pick up a bit further, say something further on, is how Berkson influences modernism and the literary modernists. So an novelist like Virginia Woolf, you see in her novels, for example, missus Dalloway from the nineteen twenties, this interest in clock time and psychological time. So missus Dalloway, you know, you get all the sounds of Big Ben punctuating the various events that make up the narrative of the novel. At the same time, you get these incursions of experiences of psychological time where the characters are experiencing the past and memories of the past completely encroaching upon their own perceptions of reality or the present at any point in time. And she's she's a serious novelist of time, think.

而伯特兰对小说家怀有极大敬意，因为他认为小说家不同于科学家，能够真正处理人类经验的细节，并展现人类经验独一无二的特性。

And Bertrand had a great respect for novelists because he thought novelists, unlike scientists, could actually deal with the details of human experience and actually show the singular quality character of human experience.

他们能以某种方式扭曲语言，创造性地运用语言回归我们的体验本身，而普通语言——比如名词的泛指性——往往漂浮在事物的具体性之上。

They can twist language in a certain way, can use language in a creative way to get back to our own experience, whereas ordinary language, the generality of the noun for example, kind of floats above the particularity of things.

或许可以补充一点来强化柏格森并非反科学的观点，那就是他与当时心理学的深度互动。他关于感知主要是记忆的观点听起来很奇特，但实际上这在当今哲学和心理学领域被广泛接受。所谓‘绵延当下’的概念——我们经历的每一刻并非转瞬即逝的瞬间，而是具有持续性的时段。

Something to add perhaps just to reinforce the view that Bergson is not anti science is how involved he was with the psychology of his day. So his view that perception is largely memory sounds really peculiar, but actually it's a view that is really widely held today in philosophy and psychology. The very notion of what's called a spacious present. That any present moment we experience is not some instantaneous fraction of a second. It's a moment that actually has duration.

举例来说，这就是为何我们看到交通灯由红变绿时能感知到变化——因为我们的每个感知瞬间都需要些许时间。这个观点如今已被广泛认同。而这正是他与威廉·詹姆斯的思想交汇点之一，后者是‘绵延当下’理论的坚定捍卫者，其理论建立在如沙德沃斯·霍奇森等人的研究基础上。柏格森深度参与了这类探讨。

And that's how, for example, when we see a traffic light change from red to green, that's how we see the change because any one moment of our perception takes a little bit of time. I mean that idea is really widely held now. And he was, this was one of the points of confluence with William James, who is a huge defender of the spacious present, building on the work of people like Shadworth Hodgson. Bergson was really involved with these sorts of things.

嗯。基思，你刚才没提到T·S·艾略特。

Mhmm. You didn't mention T. S. Eliot, Keith, when you were No.

确实如此。

That's right.

如果我没记错，艾略特属于那种先经历柏格森主义阶段，又转向反柏格森主义的作家。另一个例子是二十世纪初的T·E·休姆，他曾是狂热的柏格森主义者，后来变成激烈的反柏格森者。可见人们常会经历理解柏格森、超越柏格森，最终有时反对其思想的过程。

I think Eliot, if I've got this right, is one of those writers who goes through a Bergsonian phase, Bergsonian phase, and then goes through an anti Bergsonian phase. Another example I give is t u u, h u l m e, from the early part of the twentieth century, was an avid Bergsonian, then becomes an avid or rabid anti Bergsonian. So people are are working through Bergson, moving through Bergson, but ending up sometimes opposed to his thinking.

同时代的另一位作家是梅·辛克莱。

Another writer of generation is May Sinclair.

梅·辛克莱。

May Sinclair.

是的。他既是哲学家也是小说家。我是说，她将大量柏格森的思想融入她的作品

Yeah. He was a philosopher as well as a novelist. I mean, she's adopting huge numbers of Bergsonian ideas into her

没错。她的主要小说是哪部？有一部

That's right. What's her main novel? There's a

有几部著名的。让她名利双收的是《神圣之火》

couple of famous ones. The one that made her rich and famous was The Divine Fire.

有一部是关于玛丽·奥利弗生平的吗？

Is there one about the life of Mary Oliver?

哦，有的。绝对有。《三姐妹》就是基于

Oh, there is. Yeah, absolutely. Three sisters which is based on the

这与柏格森的思想有些共鸣

It's some resonances with Bergson's ideas.

是啊

Yeah.

看来各地同行对他的反对态度比我通过笔记所理解的更为明显。你认为他现在是被永久排斥了吗？

So this people your peers in various places seem more obviately against him than harm is given to understand by what I read of the notes. Do you think he's a permanent outcast now?

英国大学的哲学并非铁板一块。它有多种教学方式和不同传统。欧洲哲学传统中，贝尔顿或许未获足够重视，但他是这一传统中的重要人物。没有马丁·海德格尔，就没有《存在与时间》。

Well, philosophy is not of one piece in British universities. It can be taught in different ways and there are distinct traditions. There's a European tradition of philosophy. Well Belton, he might not be paid sufficient attention, but he's an important figure in the tradition. There's no Martin Heidegger, there's no being in time.

海德格尔认为存在先于钟表时间的时间性。没有柏格森对绵延与空间化时间的区分，这是不可能的。因此他在欧洲哲学传统中很重要，但他关于时间的观点，确实未在英语哲学界的时间哲学讨论中出现。

Heidegger argues that there's a temporality prior to clock time. That's not possible without Bergson's distinction of duration and a spatialised time. So he's important within the tradition of European philosophy but his ideas about time, no, they're not discussed within English language approaches in the philosophy of time.

至少它们被讨论，只是未被承认是他的观点。

Well at least they're discussed but not acknowledged to be his.

对，好，说得好。这个表述很到位。为什么

Right, okay, okay good. That's a good way of putting it. Why

会这样？为何他们不承认？我以为学术界会认可所有人的贡献。

is that? Why don't they acknowledge it? I thought, you know academics acknowledge everybody inside.

我们尽力了。但我想

We try. But I think the

哲学史的书写权掌握在那些有意书写它的人手中。令人惊讶的是，关于二十世纪初的哲学史研究少之又少，与研究亚里士多德或早期现代哲学的学者大军相比简直微不足道。罗素的作品是其中重要代表之一。我认为这是个问题，它严重扭曲了历史真相。

history of philosophy is written by the people that want to write it. There's very little history of philosophy on the early twentieth century, surprisingly little compared to the armies of scholars who were working on Aristotle or early modern philosophy. And one of the big works is Russell. And I think that's a problem. I think that's really distorted what went on.

罗素至今仍被视为具有影响力的标志性人物吗？

Is Russell still regarded as an influential and defining figure?

是的，绝对可以这么说。

Yes, absolutely, I would say.

我认为我们现在能谈论柏格森，是因为与那个时代已拉开足够距离。仿佛柏格森终于正式进入了哲学史经典殿堂，我们如今将二十世纪初视为哲学历史研究的对象。

I think one of the reasons that we're now speaking about Bergsan is because there's sufficient distance between now and then. It's as if Bergsan has finally and properly entered the canon of the history of philosophy and we're now treating the beginning of the twentieth century as an object historical inquiries in philosophy.

你如何看待罗素对柏格森的抨击？听起来相当过激。

What do you think of Russell's attack on Berkson? It sounds intemperate.

确实过激。我认为这很大程度上暴露了罗素自身的哲学偏见。他并非柏格森著作的细心读者，其解读存在严重曲解，将柏格森的思想极度浅薄化。他甚至在评论柏格森讲座听众以女性为主时，暗示柏格森是'女性化哲学家'——这与艾米丽提及的直觉在柏格森哲学中的重要性相呼应，仿佛直觉是某种本质上的女性特质。

It is intemperate. I think a lot of it reveals Russell's own philosophical prejudices. I don't think he was a very careful or diligent reader of Bergson. I think he does misrepresent his ideas and renders them very superficial. And he calls Bergson he says, I'm not surprised that Bergson's lectures are attended largely by women because he sees him as a very female philosopher because of what Emily was saying about the importance of intuition to Bergson, as if this was some sort of essential feminine or female quality.

我认为他完全未能领会柏格森将直觉视为特定注意力和感知模式的深刻性。这种直觉绝非模糊的预感，在柏格森体系里，它是种严谨的方法论——一种对你所体验、所观察事物的专注方法。

And I think he he doesn't get the the the richness of Bergson's thinking of intuition as a specific mode of attentiveness and perception. It's it's not intuition in the sense of something vague, like a hunch you you have. It's a quite a rigorous method in Bergson, a a method of attentiveness to the to what you're experiencing, what you're observing.

但罗素目前的地位非常稳固吗？

But is is Russell's position at the moment very steady?

是的，我认为是的。他无疑非常知名，著作广为流传。

Yes. I I think so. Yeah. I mean, he's certainly extremely well known. He's well read.

他的作品至今仍被列入本科生阅读书目。

He's still cited on undergraduate reading lists.

好的，再次感谢大家。制片人正在推门进来。有人要喝咖啡吗？

Well, thank you all very much again. The producers pushing open the door. Don't talk to your coffee, anybody?

让我们看看。嗨起来吧。

Let's see. Woop it up.

《我们的时代》由梅尔文·布拉格主持，西蒙·蒂洛森制作。

In Our Time with Melvin Bragg is produced by Simon Tillotson.

《超越今日》是BBC广播四台的每日播客，聚焦新闻热点背后的一个核心问题及其深远影响。

Beyond Today is the daily podcast from Radio four. It asks one big question about one big story in the news and beyond.

我是蒂娜·德希利。

I'm Tina Dehealy.

我是马修·普莱斯。

I'm Matthew Price.

与一群充满好奇心的制作人一起，我们正在寻找能改变我们世界观的问题答案。

And along with a team of curious producers, we are searching for answers that change the way we see the world.

请在BBC Sounds上订阅我们。

Subscribe to us on BBC Sounds.

并加入话题标签#超越今天。

And join in on the hashtag beyond today.

哦，我下去了，你上来了。

Oh, I went down, you went up.