1798年爱尔兰起义

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你好。

Hello.

1798年，在爱尔兰，叛乱的势头如此强劲，问题已不再是是否会爆发，而是何时爆发。

In 1798 in Ireland, the momentum behind rebellion was so great that it was a question of when it would happen, not if.

由新教徒和天主教徒领导的爱尔兰人联合会，拥有约二十万名成员，并得到了法国入侵舰队的支持。

The United Irishman, led by protestants and Catholics, had an estimated 200,000 members and the support of the French invasion fleets.

但至关重要的是，其中一些成员是英国间谍，他们泄露了计划，而法国援军抵达时已经太迟。

Crucially, though, some of those members were British spies who exposed the plans, and the French arrived too late.

当叛乱最终爆发时，它激烈而残酷，但持续时间短暂，其后果却极为深远。

And when rebellion broke out, it was fierce, brutal, but brief, though its consequences were immense.

和我一起讨论1798年爱尔兰起义的有：牛津大学赫特福德学院爱尔兰历史教授伊恩·麦克布赖德、约克大学现代史高级讲师卡特里娜·肯尼迪，以及玛丽·伊马库拉特学院利默里克分校历史系主任兼高级讲师利亚姆·钱伯斯。

With me to discuss the Irish rebellion of seventeen ninety eight are Ian MacBride, Foster professor of Irish history at Hertford College, University of Oxford Katrina Kennedy, senior lecturer in modern history at the University of York, and Liam Chambers, head of department and senior lecturer in history at Mary Immaculate College Limerick.

利亚姆，有些人认为，与前一个世纪相比，18世纪相对和平。

Liam, the eighteenth century had been seen by some as relatively peaceful when compared with the one before.

你能告诉我们为什么吗？

Can you tell us why?

是的。

Yeah.

所以，18世纪在很多方面是一个比17世纪更稳定的世纪，而17世纪是一个充满流血、暴力和冲突的世纪。

So Erdent in the eighteenth century in many ways is a very stable century compared to the seventeenth century, which was a century of bloodshed, violence, a century of conflict.

但我认为，在这种稳定背后隐藏着许多不稳定性、不确定性以及持续威胁着随时可能爆发的紧张关系。

But I think that behind that stability lay a lot of instabilities, a lot of, uncertainties, a lot of tensions that threatened to bubble over all the time throughout the course of the eighteenth century.

其中最根本的紧张关系，是爱尔兰天主教徒与新教徒之间的矛盾。

And probably the most fundamental of those was tension between the Catholic community in Ireland and the Protestant community in Ireland.

在过去的两个世纪里，土地和权力已从天主教徒手中转移到了新教徒手中。

So over the course of the previous two centuries, land and power had transferred from Catholics to the hands of Protestants.

这一状况实际上由十七世纪末的事件——1688年光荣革命——彻底巩固了。

And This was copper fastened really by events in the late seventeenth century, the revolution of sixteen eighty eight.

因此，这引发了1689年至1691年间爱尔兰的战争，这场战争确认了爱尔兰新教社群的主导地位，虽然保障了某种安全与稳定，但也带来了其他问题。

So this precipitates a war in Ireland between 1689 and 1691, and this confirms dominant position of the Protestant community in Ireland, which guarantees a kind of security and stability but creates other kinds of problems.

为了巩固其安全，掌控土地与政治权力的爱尔兰新教社群颁布了一系列针对爱尔兰天主教徒的惩罚性法律，歧视他们，特别是旨在确保天主教精英阶层无法发动一场针对后来被称为爱尔兰新教后裔的反革命。

So to confirm its security, the Protestant community in Ireland, which has dominance in in land and in politics, it then passes a series of penal laws targeting Irish Catholics, discriminating against them, in particular to try and make sure that the Catholic elite couldn't launch a kind of counter revolution against what would later be called the Protestant descendants in Ireland.

这些法律不仅针对天主教徒的土地所有权——尽管已所剩无几——还针对天主教会、天主教教育、天主教徒参与政治的权利，以及天主教徒持有武器的权利，这或许并不令人意外。

So it targets Catholic land ownership such as it was, but it also targets the Catholic church, Catholic education, Catholic ability to participate in politics, Catholic ability to bear arms, which is probably not very surprising.

而天主教徒则转而向国外寻求希望。

And Catholics in their turn, they look abroad for hope.

他们寄望于1688年被推翻的詹姆斯二世从法国流亡地归来，领导对爱尔兰的入侵，推翻十七世纪的土地分配格局，使天主教徒掌握政治权力。

They look possibility of James the second, who had been toppled in 1688, returning from exile in France to lead an invasion of Ireland, to overturn the land settlements of the seventeenth century and bring Catholics to political power.

当他于十八世纪初去世后，他们又寄望于他的儿子詹姆斯三世领导对爱尔兰的入侵。

And when he dies, in the early eighteenth century, they look to the possibility of his son James the third, leading an invasion of Ireland.

您能否大致说明一下天主教徒与非天主教徒的人口比例？

Could you give a little some idea of the relative, sizes of the Catholics and non Catholics?

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

新教徒约占20%。

So the Protestant is about 20%.

天主教徒人口约占80%。

The Catholic population is about 80%.

十八世纪初，爱尔兰人口约为240万左右。

At the start of the eighteenth century, the population of Ireland is maybe 2,400,000 or thereabouts.

到十八世纪末，人口增长到约500万。

It rises to about 5,000,000 by the end of the eighteenth century.

因此，新教徒占人口的20%，但在十七世纪七十年代，他们拥有爱尔兰95%的土地。

So Protestants are 20% of the population, but they own, by the seventeen seventies, 95% of the land in Ireland.

他们还掌控着政治权力的枢纽。

They also control the levers of political power.

从1690年代起，爱尔兰议会就是一个议会。

The Irish parliament from the sixteen nineties onward is parliament.

只有新教徒才能进入议会。

Only protestants can sit in parliament.

只有新教徒最终才能在选举中投票，比如十八世纪举行的那些选举。

Only protestants can vote eventually in elections, such as, they happened in the eighteenth century.

但爱尔兰的新教徒群体内部也存在紧张关系，尤其是占主导地位的爱尔兰教会群体——他们实际上是爱尔兰的精英阶层——与数量众多、主要分布在东阿尔斯特、许多具有苏格兰血统的长老会群体之间的矛盾。

But there are tensions as well within the protestant community in Ireland, especially between the dominant church of Ireland Ireland community who really are the elite community in Ireland and the Presbyterian community who are numerous, of course, in, East Ulster in in particular, many of them of Scottish descent.

长老会教徒对自身也遭受歧视感到不满。

And Presbyterians resent the fact that they feel that they are discriminated against as well.

一些惩罚性法律也适用于他们。

Some of the penal laws apply to them.

例如，他们无法像爱尔兰教会群体那样担任地方政府的职务。

They can't have the same role in local government, for example, that the Church of Ireland community can.

因此，可以说社会几乎形成了三层结构：爱尔兰教会精英居上，长老会教徒居中，天主教徒居下。

So if you like, there's almost a three tiered society with a Church of Ireland elite with Presbyterians somewhere below them and with Catholics below them again.

这就创造了一种非常紧张的局势。

So it creates this very tense situation.

在这一时期，这种极度紧张的局势是否曾爆发为暴力事件？

Does this very tense situation burst out into violence at any time over that period?

令人惊讶的是，实际上并没有发生。

That's the surprising thing in a way that that it actually doesn't.

在整个十八世纪，直到1798年之前，都没有发生过大规模的叛乱。

There's no major, rebellion over the course of the, eighteenth century, until 1798.

爱尔兰一直存在雅各布派骚乱的可能性，但当1715年和1745年英格兰和苏格兰爆发起义时，爱尔兰却保持平静。

There's there there's always the possibility of Jacobite unrest in Ireland, but when risings happen in in England and Scotland in 1715 and 1745, Ireland remains quiescent.

为什么会这样？

Why is that?

我认为主要是因为天主教徒在十八世纪根本没有能力组织武装抵抗。

I I think it's mainly because Catholics simply don't have the means to organize armed resistance over the course of eighteenth century.

我认为这解释了十八世纪爱尔兰表面上的稳定。

I think that explains the stability, if you like, the kind of stability in the surface of eighteenth century Ireland.

非常感谢。

Thanks very much.

伊恩·麦克布莱德。

Ian McBride.

还有美国革命，我们不妨这么称呼它，即美国人尤其是反对英国人的斗争，以及法国大革命。

There were the American revolution, let's call it that, the fight against the British, the English particularly in America, and the French revolution.

你能为我们概述一下它们对爱尔兰政治社会的主要影响吗？

Can you sketch out for us some of the main impacts they had on Irish political society?

当然。

Yep.

这两场巨大的外部冲击，真正动摇了利亚姆所描述的表面上平静的世界。

These are two great external shocks that really shake up the, you know, the superficially calm world that Liam's been describing.

我认为，它们首先改变了爱尔兰人的政治想象力。

The first thing that they do, I I think, is they transform the Irish political imagination.

因此，在新教政治圈内，早已存在一个所谓的爱国者运动，主张从伦敦、从威斯敏斯特议会争取更大的宪政和商业自由。

So within the the Protestant political world, there had been patriot movement, a so called patriot movement, campaigning for greater constitutional and commercial freedom from London, from the Westminster parliament.

这些爱国者将美国殖民地视为对爱尔兰议会的一种占领局面。

Those patriots saw the American colonies as occupying situation to the Irish parliament.

在爱国者中，有一部分激进派。

Among the patriots, there was a radical fringe.

他们阅读了约翰·洛克的《政府论两篇》，这部作品如今已成为辉格派和进步思想家的重要奠基之作。

They were people who read John Locke's two treatises of government, which was now acquiring its status as a great foundational work for Whig thinkers, progressive thinkers.

他们以一种奇特的十八世纪方式自视为共和主义者。

They thought of themselves as Republicans in a curious eighteenth century sort of way.

他们钦佩古希腊和古罗马的共和国，但同时也相信英国宪法和英国帝国更为优越，认为它们是新教、自由与商业成功独一无二的结合。

They were admirers of the ancient republics of Greece and and Rome, but they believed that the British constitution and the British empire were superior, that they were a unique combination of Protestantism, liberty, and commercial success.

而美国革命开始改变这种观念，因为在爱尔兰人看来，这场革命像一场内战，极具分裂性。

And the American revolution began to change that because it was seen in Ireland as a kind of civil war, and it was very divisive.

爱尔兰新教徒们不知道该支持叛乱的美国人，还是支持英国政府。

Irish Protestants didn't know whether to take the side of the rebellious Americans or or the government.

当然，革命最终建立了一个共和国，这让他们开始怀疑，英国宪法或许并非人类政治演进的巅峰。

And, of course, it produced a republic, which made them think that perhaps the British constitution wasn't the high point of human political evolution after all.

所以这就是美国。

So that's America.

然后在1789年，巴黎爆发了革命，这是一场令爱尔兰人着迷的伟大乌托邦式政治实验。

Then 1789 comes the outbreak of revolution in Paris, and this is a great utopian political experiment that mesmerizes the Irish.

我的意思是，所有宗教背景的爱尔兰人都如此看待。

I mean, the Irish people of all religious backgrounds.

它被视为扫除了数个世纪的迷信和神职人员的操控——这是另一个典型的十八世纪术语，以及暴政等等。

It's seen as sweeping away centuries of superstition and priestcraft, another very eighteenth century term, tyranny, and so on.

它契合了改革者的情绪，尤其是在贝尔法斯特。

And it catches the mood of reformers, particularly in Belfast.

因此在1791年，贝尔法斯特举行了盛大的庆祝巴士底狱陷落的活动，正是从这次示威中诞生了联合爱尔兰人协会。

So in 1791, there's a spectacular celebration of the fall of the Bastille held in Belfast, and it's from that demonstration that evolves the Society of United Irishmen.

他们是谁？

What were they?

最初在贝尔法斯特成立的这个团体，是一群长老会商人和制造商；重要的是要指出，当时的贝尔法斯特正日益自信，经济蓬勃发展，政治抱负也在提升，充满自我认同。

They were as well, the first society in Belfast was a a group of Presbyterian merchants and manufacturers, and it's important to say that Belfast at this time was growing in confidence, growing economically and growing in its political ambitions and was full of itself.

贝尔法斯特认为自己能够按照自己的形象重塑整个爱尔兰岛，自视为引领一场全国性运动的先锋。

Belfast thought it could reshape the island of Ireland in its own image, saw itself as very much leading a national movement.

紧接着在都柏林出现了第二个组织，主要由新教律师和医生组成，也有天主教中产阶级人士加入。

A second society followed quickly in Dublin, composed mostly of Protestant lawyers, doctors joined by Catholic, middle class Catholics also.

这就是这场运动的起点。

So that's the the starting point for the movement.

它何时获得了可以称为有效权力的力量？

When did it achieve what could be called effective power?

它获得了一些政治影响力。

It achieved some political influence.

它惊动了伦敦政府，再加上与法国开战，更使伦敦政府恐慌，于1793年和1794年关闭了所有宪政抗议渠道，此后该运动转入地下。

It panicked the government in London, which in combination, of course, with the outbreak of war with France, it panicked the government in London so that constitutional channels of protest were closed down in 1793, 1794, and the movement then went underground.

从大约1795年起，它在阿尔斯特地区恐吓地主和治安官。

It terrorized landlords and magistrates, particularly in Ulster, from about 1795 onwards.

我的意思是，它瘫痪了地方行政和地方司法，尤其是在阿尔斯特地区。

I mean, it paralyzed the administration of of local government and local justice, especially in Ulster.

它确实使爱尔兰政府陷入瘫痪。

And it certainly immobilized government in Ireland.

我想你可以这么说。

I think you could say that.

我的意思是，它计划借助法国入侵来夺取权力，但这一关键时刻的细节始终相当模糊。

I mean, it planned to achieve power with the help of a French invasion, but the details of that particular juncture always remained quite vague.

卡特里娜·肯尼迪，伍尔夫镇在这些年份中尤为突出。

Katrina Kennedy, Woolfetown stands out in this in these early years.

他的背景是什么？他产生了什么影响？

What was his background and what impact did he have?

西奥博尔德·伍尔夫镇出生在一个属于爱尔兰教会的家庭，家境宽裕但并不特别富有。在美国战争期间，他还是一名青少年。美国战争对爱尔兰的影响之一，是驻扎在爱尔兰的英军被调往美洲参战，为了填补空缺，爱尔兰志愿军运动应运而生——这是一支武装的爱国力量，要求从英国获得更大的立法和经济独立。

Theobald Woolfetown is born into a Church of Ireland family that's comfortable but not particularly wealthy and he's a teenager at the time of the American war and one of the impacts of the American war on Ireland, of course, is that it involves the removal of troops that have been stationed in Ireland, who are then sent to fight the war in America and to fill their place there arises the Irish volunteer movement, which is an armed patriot force that is pressing for greater legislative and economic independence from Britain.

这些事件都发生在他青少年时期，他常常逃学去都柏林的公园观看军队阅兵，对那种军事 pomp 和壮观场面着迷不已。如果他一生和事业中有一条贯穿始终的主线，那就是这种军事冒险的精神，以及成为一名士兵的渴望。

So this is all ongoing during his teenage years and he often plays truant from school to go and watch these military reviews of troops in the parks in Dublin and he's absolutely enthralled by that military pump and spectacle and if there is a light motif running through his life and career, it's that spirit of military adventure, that desire to be a soldier.

但他的父亲阻止了这一志向，拒绝让他加入英军。于是，他像许多同阶级和同宗教背景的人一样，进入都柏林三一学院，随后前往伦敦追求法律事业。在那里，他首次涉足政治，提出了一个在夏威夷群岛（今夏威夷）建立军事殖民地的计划，以增强英国在该地区的军事实力。

But his father blocks that ambition and refuses to let him join the British Army, So he goes to Trinity College Dublin like many of his class and religion and then goes to London to pursue a legal career and while he's there he makes his first foray into politics which is with this scheme to establish a military colony in the Sandwich Islands which is present day Hawaii to boost British military power in that region.

他亲自将提案送到唐宁街的威廉·皮特手中，但皮特对此毫无回应。那一刻，他因皮特的冷漠而愤怒至极，发誓总有一天要让皮特为如此拒绝他而后悔。

He hand delivers the proposal to William Pitt at Downing Street, has no response to this and he says at that moment that he was so enraged by Pitt's indifference that he vowed that he would one day make him sorry for rejecting him in this way.

因此，当他从伦敦返回都柏林时，正值法国大革命前夕，他很快被随之而来的政治热潮所席卷。

So when he returns then to Dublin from London though, it's shortly before the French Revolution and then he gets swept up very much in the political excitement that follows from that.

联合爱尔兰人有多团结？

How united were the United Irishmen?

他们的目标是什么？

What were their goals?

在早期，他们的目标是广泛的议会改革，以及天主教徒、新教徒和非国教徒联合的非宗派愿景。

In the early years, their goals are broadly parliamentary reform and the non sectarian vision of a union of Catholics, Protestants and dissenters.

因此，蒂恩真正强调并深刻洞察到的核心观点是：只要天主教徒和特别是长老会派等非国教徒彼此分裂，英国政府就能持续利用不同宗教群体之间的矛盾相互制衡。

So the essential insight which, you know, Tone has had and he really presses is that as long as Catholics and dissenters in particular, the Presbyterians are divided, that the British government will be able to continuously play the different religious communities off against each other.

因此，爱尔兰获得独立或自治的任何希望都是不可能的。

So any hope of independence or autonomy for Ireland is impossible.

但他们其他方面存在分歧。

But they're divided on other issues.

他们不太确定是想建立一个类似法国共和国的爱尔兰共和国，还是只想进行激进的议会改革、实现全民男性选举权。

They're not quite sure if they want to establish an Irish Republic on the lines of the French Republic, whether they want radical parliamentary reform, universal male suffrage.

他们最终采纳了这一目标，但最初他们是一个由专业人士和富裕商人组成的广泛联盟。

They do end up adopting that but initially they're quite a broad coalition of, you know, members of the professional classes wealthier merchants.

因此，在早期，他们主要致力于塑造公众舆论，传播其非教派理念。

So in their early years they're really trying to shape public opinion, to spread their non sectarian message.

他们通过印刷出版物，比如贝尔法斯特的《北方之星》报纸，非常有效地实现了这一点。

And they do that quite effectively through print publications like the Northern Star newspaper in Belfast.

所以，那正是他们被迫由沃尔夫·托恩领导的时候吗？

So that's when they become sort of forced with Wolftone at the head?

从很多方面来说，托恩虽然不是正式成员，但他对联合爱尔兰人的成立及其初期愿景的塑造起到了关键作用。

I mean, he's not in in many ways, Wolftone is very instrumental foundation of the United Irishman helping to shape their initial vision.

但在头几年，他实际上更多地参与了天主教委员会，并通过该组织游说推动天主教解放。

But in their first few years, he's actually much more involved with the Catholic committee and lobbying for Catholic emancipation emancipation through that.

那是另一个独立的组织。

That's another separate organization.

因此，在联合爱尔兰运动的早期几年里，他并没有太多参与。

So he's not that involved in the the early years of the United Irish movement.

谢谢你，利亚姆。

Thank you, Liam.

利亚姆·钱伯斯，在我们转向法国登陆尝试之前，能否简要更新一下我们目前的进展？

Liam Chambers, before we move on to the French landing attempt Can you just give a list as an update as to where we are at this time?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为关键在于，接续卡特里娜的发言以及伊恩的评论，联合爱尔兰人在他们存在的最初几年里基本上是合法的。

So I suppose the crucial thing is that picking up from where Katrina left off and and what Ian had commented on, the United Irishman are fairly legal during the the first years of their existence.

他们是一个非常重要的游说力量和宣传机构，但规模相对较小，主要集中在贝尔法斯特和都柏林。

They're they're a very important lobbying force, a propaganda outfit, but they're relatively small scale, and they're centered in Belfast and also in Dublin.

但在1794年7月，他们被迫转入地下。

But they're pushed underground in 07/1794.

这是由于英国与法国之间爆发了战争，这场战争改变了1790年代的爱尔兰，因为像西奥博尔德·沃尔夫·托恩这样曾对法国大革命充满热情的人，此时比1790年代初期更受怀疑。

And this is as a result of war breaking out between Britain and France, and that war transforms Ireland in the seventeen nineties because suddenly, these people like Theobald Wolftone, who had been enthused by the French revolution, are even more suspicious than they had been early in the seventeen nineties.

因此，联合爱尔兰人在1794年被取缔。

So the United Irish men are prescribed in in 1794.

结果，这个小型组织在1795年、1796年，尤其是1797年重新崛起，成为了一个群众性的革命组织。

And what happens is this small scale outfit reemerge through 1795, 1796, and especially 1797 as a mass based revolutionary organization.

他们迅速壮大起来，对吧？

They whipped up to a big size very quickly, didn't they?

是的。

They did.

但在其鼎盛时期，可能有高达二十万名义成员。

But at its height, possibly 200,000 sworn members.

是的。

Yeah.

此时，他们已致力于建立一个独立的爱尔兰共和国。

And at this point, they're committed to the goal of separate Irish Republic.

因此，一些联合爱尔兰人可能在18世纪90年代初就是分离主义者，但大多数人当时显然不是。

So some United Irishmen may have been separatists in the early seventeen nineties, but most of them certainly were not.

但到1795年、1796年，许多人已经确信，爱尔兰唯一的未来是建立一个独立的爱尔兰共和国，因为卡特里娜提到的那些改革——议会改革、天主教徒解放甚至天主教徒 emancipation——实际上都已被阻断。

But by 1795, 1796, many of them become convinced that the only future for Ireland is separate Irish Republic because the kind of reforms Katrina mentioned, parliamentary reform, Catholic relief, or Catholic emancipation even had effectively been blocked off.

因此，他们现在转向法国，寻求对爱尔兰起义的支持。

So they're they're looking to the French now for support for a rebellion in Ireland.

而且，西奥博尔德在1794年、1795年就与一位法国特工有联系。

And, Seobold, he has contacts with a French agent in 1794, 1795.

所以1795年，他基本上被要求离开国家，随后流亡海外。

So in 1795, he's more or less told he needs to leave the country, and he goes into exile.

他去了美国。

He goes to The United States.

他在美国过得非常不开心。

He hates it in The United States.

他根本无法在那里安顿下来，于是决定在1796年初前往巴黎，协助说服法国入侵爱尔兰的努力。

He doesn't settle there at all, and he decides in in early seventeen ninety six he'll go to Paris to assist with efforts to persuade the French to invade Ireland.

不过，他并不是巴黎唯一的爱尔兰联合派特使。

Now he's not the only United Irish agent in Paris.

他并非独自一人谈判获得法国援助，但他与爱德华·卢尼斯等人一道，对说服法国入侵爱尔兰起到了关键作用。

He doesn't single handedly negotiate French assistance, but he's crucial in persuading the French along with Edward Lunes and others to invade Ireland.

法国决定于1796年发动一次大规模入侵爱尔兰的行动，并将其列为优先事项。

And the French decide to launch a massive invasion of Ireland in the 1796, and they put it ahead of it.

一位经验丰富的法国军事指挥官，拉扎尔·奥赫。

A really experienced French military commander, Lazar Och.

这体现了他们的决心。

So this is a a sign of their determination.

舰队于1796年12月从法国北部启航。

It set sail from Northern France in December 1796.

超过40艘舰船， aboard 超过14,000名士兵。

More than 40 ships, more than 14,000 soldiers on board.

这是一次极为坚定的行动。

So this is a very determined effort.

舰队驶向爱尔兰，但并未被英国皇家海军拦截而失败。

The ships head for Ireland, but they're defeated not by the Royal Navy who don't intercept them.

他们被天气击败了。

They're defeated by the weather.

一些船只抵达了爱尔兰南海岸的班特里湾，位于科克郡，但许多船只被吹离了航线。

Some of the ships arrive off the South Coast Of Ireland at Bantry Bay in County Court, but many are blown off.

西奥博尔德·沃尔夫·托尼现在是一名法国军官。

Theobald Wolf Tony is now a commissioned French officer.

他登上了其中一艘船。

He's on board one of the ships.

他在日记中记录了在船上的经历。

He writes in his diaries about being on board.

他曾提到，自己离海岸如此之近，几乎可以扔一块饼干到科克郡的陆地上。

He comments at one point that he's so close to the shore that he could have tossed a biscuit onto County Cork, onto the land.

但风力持续不减，其余舰队未能抵达，托尼和其他人被迫返回法国。

But the wind doesn't give up, and, the rest of the fleet doesn't arrive, and Tone and the others are forced to return to France.

托尼评论道，我这是转述，但他说英格兰人自西班牙无敌舰队以来经历了最大的逃脱。

Tone comments, you know, I'm par aphrasing, but that the English have had their greatest escape since the Spanish Armada.

这真是千钧一发。

And it it was a close run thing.

对于爱尔兰的政府支持者和英国人来说，这简直是吓破了胆。

For government supporters in Ireland and for for the British, this is the fright of their lives.

这凸显了爱尔兰地位的脆弱。

It illustrates the weakness of Ireland's position.

这表明爱尔兰门户大开，极易遭到入侵。

It it illustrates it was wide open, to invasion.

我认为普遍认为，如果法国人登陆，他们很可能已经占领了科克。

And I think there's general agreement that had the French landed, they probably would have taken Cork.

他们很可能已经占领了利默里克。

They probably would have taken Limerick.

所以他们最终可能没有获胜，但战争在爱尔兰境内将开辟一条主要战线。

So they may not have won in the end, but a a major front would have been opened up in the war, in Ireland.

而且也值得指出的是，对于爱尔兰人联合会而言，这虽然是一次失望，但实际上也是一件非常积极的事情。

And also it's worth saying too that for the United Irishman, this was a disappointment but actually it was a very positive thing too.

他们一直试图向国内的盟友解释，法国会支持他们，但这很难让人相信。

They had been trying to explain to their allies at home that the French would support them and this was difficult to believe.

法国人突然出现了大量兵力。

Here were the French turning up massive numbers.

他们肯定还会再回来的。

Surely, they'd be back again.

因此，在班特里湾远征之后，联合爱尔兰人组织的招募人数激增。

So there's massive recruitment into the United Irishman after the Bantry Bay expedition.

伊恩·麦格雷戈，我们正处在1798年事件发生的时期。

Ian Ian McGrath, so we were we're near 1798 where it happened.

当时有什么具体事件引发了这场运动吗？

Were there particular actions that started that?

有的。

Yes.

或许更确切地说，是英国武装力量在爱尔兰推行恐怖政策的过程。

And perhaps a particular process, really, which is the the adoption of a policy of terror by the British Armed Forces in Ireland.

在当时，要准确理解叛乱与反叛乱之间如何相互作用，以及哪一方在推动另一方，是非常困难的。

And it very it's very difficult to understand at this time exactly how insurgency and counterinsurgency are interacting and which one is is fueling the other.

因此，利亚姆描述了伦敦对一次险些发生的法国入侵所感到的恐慌。

So, Liam's described the the panic in London at a a narrowly missed missed French invasion.

此外，人们还对爱尔兰乡村中多种民众不满情绪的显现感到恐慌，其中一些受到联合爱尔兰人会和法国思想的影响，另一些则受到天主教组织的影响，这些组织有时掺杂了少量法国思想，有时则更多是传统的天主教元素。

There's also panic at the fact that there's multiple forms of popular disaffection manifesting themselves in the Irish countryside, some of them influenced by the United Irishmen and by French ideas, some of them influenced by Catholic organizations with a smattering of French ideas and sometimes more traditional Catholic motifs as well.

但人们确实感到，传统的爱尔兰治理方式——即由地方新教治安官主导，偶尔动用军队干预——已经不再有效。

But there's a real sense that the traditional means of governing Ireland, local Protestant magistrates backed up with the occasional foray from troops, that that's not working anymore.

越来越多的都柏林城堡英方官员在通信中直言不讳地表示，应对爱尔兰这一问题的唯一办法就是实施系统性的恐怖政策。

And increasingly, British administrators based at Dublin Castle are frank in their correspondence that the only way to face this problem in Ireland is a policy of systematic terror.

这意味着大规模焚烧房屋。

And that means house burning, widespread house burning.

这意味着广泛而残酷的鞭刑，在军队驻扎的民宅中对妇女实施性暴力，这些暴行主要集中在阿尔斯特地区。

It means flogging, I mean, very vicious widespread flogging, sexual violence against women where troops are billeted on on houses, and it's concentrated in Ulster.

我认为我们迄今为止尚未充分强调的一点是，爱尔兰东北部独特的长老会次文化，它被视为爱尔兰共和主义活动真正的风暴中心。

And one of the things that I I think we haven't emphasized enough so far is this distinctive Presbyterian subculture in the Northeast, which was seen as the real storm center of republican activity in Ireland.

因此，1797年，对阿尔斯特的军事镇压开始了。

So in 1797 the dragooning of Ulster takes place.

这指的是什么？

What does that mean?

这意味着将士兵强征入民宅，并脱离法律框架和约束，以恐吓当地民众。

It means that it's this process of belleting of three quarters on the civilian population and departing from legal structures, legal restraints in order to terrorize the local population.

这一过程由莱克将军主导，随后他成为整个爱尔兰的总司令，这支军事机器开始从北部推进。

It takes place under General Lake and at the beginning of the next he becomes the commander in chief for Ireland as a whole, and this military machine begins to move from the North.

在这些暴行已广为传播的地区，它开始向南部郡县蔓延，包括韦克斯福德。

Where these abuses have already been very widely publicized, it begins to move to southern counties, including Wexford.

卡特琳娜·肯尼迪，叛乱在五月爆发，所以我们现在正处于其中。

Katrina Kennedy, rebellion broke out in May, so we're into it now.

时机为何如此合适？

In what way was the timing right?

时机是否错了？

Was it wrong?

他们进展如何？

How did they get on?

那时候动手合适吗？

Was it a good time to do it?

不合适。

No.

这可能是简短的答案。

It's probably the short answer.

那不是一个好时机。

It wasn't a great time.

关键因素是

And the critical factor

这里的起义。

here rebellion.

起初，这本应是一场联合爱尔兰人的起义，但到了五月爆发时，乌尔斯特地区的联合爱尔兰领导层已被乌尔斯特的骑兵镇压和数月前关键领导人的逮捕彻底击垮。

At the beginning, it is it's supposed to be a United Irish rebellion, but really by the time it starts in May, the leadership, the United Irish leadership in Ulster has been brought to its knees by the dragooning of Ulster and the imprisonment of key leaders a month, a few months before the rising begins.

爱尔兰东部省份的伦斯特联合爱尔兰领导层也被逮捕了，因此他们失去了关键的军事指挥官，这位指挥官本应是联合爱尔兰军队的总司令。

The Leinster United Irish leadership of the Eastern Province Of Ireland has also been arrested so they've lost their key military commander, the person who was going to be commander in chief of the United Irish forces.

因此，那种本可能为起义提供组织性的军事专长已经丧失了。

So really that kind of military expertise that might have given the rebellion some shape has been lost.

所以，这次起义将比原本可能的情况更加混乱和缺乏协调。

So going it's to be a much more chaotic and uncoordinated insurrection than it might have otherwise been.

当然，这里的一个问题是，他们一直在等待法国人的到来。

And of course, one of the issues here is that they have been waiting for the French.

法国人一直在暗示是否会派遣另一支远征军，以及何时派遣。

The French have been provocating about whether they're going to send another expedition, when they're going to send it.

拿破仑·波拿巴是这里的关键人物。

Napoleon Bonaparte is a key figure here.

沃尔夫·通恩一直与他会面，试图说服他派遣另一支远征军。

Wulfftone has been meeting with him and trying to persuade him to send another expedition.

但当然，他现在把目标转向了入侵埃及，对爱尔兰的兴趣减少了。

But of course, he now has his sights set on invading Egypt and is less interested in Ireland.

因此，理想情况下，他们会与法国人协调，发动另一次法国远征。

So ideally, they would have coordinated the rising with the French, another French expedition.

但事实上，他们不能再等了，因为这场运动即将被彻底镇压。

But as it is, they can't wait any longer because the movement is about to be completely brought to its knees.

如果他们现在不起义，就再也没有成功的希望了。

And if they don't rise now, they will have no hope of success.

然后，对于我们这样的人来说，事件突然转向了韦克斯福德，这相当出人意料。

And then we have a rather unexpected for people like myself anyway, move suddenly to Wexford.

突然间，韦克斯福德成了行动的中心。

Suddenly, Wexford became is a becomes the center of the action.

为什么会这样呢，

Why is that,

利亚姆？

Liam?

这在一定程度上是卡特琳娜提到的计划的结果。

That's partly a result of of the plan that Katrina mentioned.

因此，起义的核心失败后，他们试图占领都柏林。

So the the heart of the rising fails, they attempt to take Dublin.

这完全失败了。

That fails completely.

但在都柏林周边和伦斯特北部，各地在5月24日几乎全面起义。

But the counties around Dublin and North Leinster, they rise up pretty dramatically in the May 24.

这几乎完全按照计划进行。

It it pretty much exactly as planned.

像基尔代尔、威克洛、米斯和都柏林郡本身，卡洛，所有地方都揭竿而起。

And places like Kildare, Wicklow, Meath, and County Dublin itself, Carlo, they're all up in arms.

一些起义者成功占领并控制了领土。

Some of those rebels succeed and hold down territory.

一些人投降了。

Some surrender.

一些人遭到屠杀。

Some are are massacred.

但就在起义爆发两天后，位于南部的韦克斯福德突然爆发了起义。

But then suddenly, two days into the rebellion, rising breaks out in Wexford, which is just to the south.

过去传统的观点认为，韦克斯福德的起义是自发的。

Now the the old traditional view was that Wexford is this spontaneous rebellion.

它是对国家镇压的反应，就像伊恩所提到的那种镇压。

It it happens in reaction to state repression, the kind of repression that that Ian was talking about.

但我现在认为，联合爱尔兰人组织得非常严密，尤其是在北韦克斯福德，而起义的核心正是联合爱尔兰人的领袖们。

But I think now we realize that the United Irish men were quite well organized, especially in North Wexford, and it's United Irish leaders who are at the heart of the rebellion there.

那里的起义似乎迅速蔓延开来。

And the rebellion just seems to take off there.

当地的英军完全措手不及，起义自身形成了强大的势头。

British forces there are taken completely off guard, and it it takes on a momentum of its own.

因此，起义者迅速占领了整个县。

So the rebels quickly occupy the entire county.

他们占领了韦克斯福德中部的战略要地恩尼斯基伦，随后又攻占了行政中心韦克斯福德镇。

They take Enniskorthy in Central Wexford, which is the key strategic point, and then they take Wexford Town, which is the administrative centre.

完成这一切后，他们宣布成立韦克斯福德共和国。

And having done that, they declare the Wexford Republic.

他们建立了初步的政府形式，由天主教和新教领袖共同参与。

They establish rudimentary forms of government with both Catholic and Protestant leaders.

韦克斯福德拥有大量人口，这带来了各种后果，我们稍后可能会谈到。

And Wexford has a has a significant population, which had all has all kinds of consequences, which we'd probably come to.

但对韦克斯福德起义军而言，问题在于他们意识到其他地方的局势已严重恶化，不得不在两种选择间做出决定：要么坚守现有领土，但会被逐一歼灭；要么离开该地区，试图与其他仍坚持战斗的起义军会合，尤其是北方的起义军。

But the problem for the for the Wexford rebel army is that they realize that things have gone badly wrong elsewhere, and they're forced to make a decision between holding the territory they have, in which case they're gonna be picked off, and moving out of the country to try and link up with whatever rebels are still in arms elsewhere, especially to the North.

于是，他们尝试了这一行动。

So, they try to do this.

当他们在六月初试图在阿克洛和纽罗斯突破时，被击退了。

And when they try to break out in early June at Arklow and at New Ross, they're pushed back.

他们被击败了。

They're defeated.

因此，起义突然失去了一些势头。

So suddenly, the rebellion loses a bit of momentum.

他们撤退到恩尼斯基伦，而关键的抵抗发生在温克尔山。

They fall back to Enniskorthy, and the the great stand happens at Vinegar Hill.

1798年6月21日发生的温克尔山战役是这场叛乱的关键战役。

And the battle of Vinegar Hill, which happens on the 06/21/1798, is the key battle of the rebellion.

叛乱已经持续了一个月，但实际上又继续了一个月，直到七月中旬。

The rebellion's gone on for a month, and the rebellion actually keeps going for a full further month until mid July.

伊恩·麦格拉思，这似乎是一场非常顽强且几乎成功的广泛叛乱。

Ian Ian McGrath, that seems a very tenacious and, almost successful rebellion widespread.

这种叛乱是从哪里来的？

Where did that come from?

我认为部分原因是出其不意。

I think partly there is a surprise factor.

威克斯福德的联合爱尔兰人组织成立较晚，因此并未引起都柏林城堡当局的注意。

United Irish organization in Wexford was relatively late, and so it hadn't featured on the radar screen of the authorities at Dublin Castle.

历史学家们对威克斯福德组织的规模和实质性程度意见不一。

And historians are divided over how far the organization in Wexford how substantial it was.

但利安已经提到过，韦克斯福德还有一个独特的特点，那就是该县北部有庞大的新教社群。

But there's another distinctive thing about Wexford that Liam has mentioned already, and that's the large Protestant community in the North of the county.

当然，整个爱尔兰都受到殖民的影响。

Ireland as a whole, of course, was shaped by colonization.

韦克斯福德的殖民方式非常独特，在阿尔斯特以外的地方是找不到的。

Wex Ford was shaped by colonization in a very distinctive way that you don't find outside Ulster.

在该县北部，有庞大的新教社群，整个社会阶层都存在新教优势或天主教劣势。

In the north of the county, it has large Protestant communities, and there is Protestant advantage or Catholic disadvantage all the way down the social ladder.

韦克斯福德城镇的地形，比如利安提到的阿斯科里，与北部城镇相似，爱尔兰穷人居住在独立的区域等等。

The topography of towns in Wexford, like in Ascorthy, which Liam mentioned, resemble northern towns so that the Irish poor live in distinct quarters and so on.

在这一地区，殖民定居相对于爱尔兰其他地区来说较晚，大约在17世纪20年代，许多天主教地主直到克伦威尔时期（1650年）才失去他们的庄园。

In that area too, plantation had been relatively recent by Irish standards, which means the 1620s, and many Catholic landowners hadn't lost their estates until Cromwell, so 1650.

因此，这种充满火药味的混合局面解释了为什么这场叛乱在该县带上了某些教派色彩。

So there's a combustible mix that explains some of the sectarian tinge that the rebellion takes on in that county.

它最终演变为一系列对新教囚犯的大屠杀，其中最著名、最臭名昭著的是斯库拉布戈谷仓大屠杀。

It collapses in a series massacres of Protestant prisoners, the best known of which are the most infamous, which was at Scullabogue Barn.

在那个阶段，士气已经崩溃，那里发生的事情——吸引了众多后来评论家的关注——实际上是共和政府实验失败的产物，而非任何有计划的行动。

That stage, morale has collapsed and what happens there, which attracts the focus of so many later commentators, is really the product of an experiment in Republican government falling apart rather than any kind of planned operation.

它与北方发生的事情截然不同，因为在赞特鲁姆郡和唐郡发生了两场规模较小的战斗。

It's very separate from what's happening in the North because there are two smaller scale battles that take place in County Zantrum and County Down.

但在那里，联合爱尔兰运动已被斩首，由第二或第三梯队的领导人带领民众发动起义，而这些战斗很快就被镇压了。

But but up there, the the movement, the United Irish movement, has been decapitated, and it's the the second or third rank leaders who are bringing out the people, and those battles are are quickly crushed.

卡特琳娜，所以那里爆发了叛乱。

Katrina, so we have rebellion there.

英国人在做什么？

What are the British doing?

他们是系统性地镇压叛乱，还是像偶然发生一样，事情一出现就去扑灭？

Are they systematically suppressing it or spontaneously, as it were, things turn up and they go and firefight?

不。

No.

他们正在向爱尔兰派遣军队，包括在爱尔兰本地招募的部队。

They they're sending in troops, both troops that have been raised in Ireland.

这些是自1793年起为本土防御而组建的民兵团，以及更紧密关联新教社区的义勇军部队，他们也被视为与橙色秩序过于密切关联。

So these are militia regiments for home defense that have been raised from 1793, as well as yeomanry corps, which are more closely associated with the Protestant community and are seen to be overly closely associated with the Orange Order as well.

因此，他们被视为更具宗派色彩的机构。

So they're seen as a more sectarian institution.

人们对民兵的作战能力存有疑虑，因为其基层士兵主要是天主教徒，但他们实际上在1798年对抗叛军时表现相当有效，并且还得到了来自英国的民兵团和可防卫团以及正规英军的支援。

There's some doubt about the capacities of the militia, you know, they're under suspicion because the rank and file is predominantly Catholic, but they perform actually pretty effectively against the rebels in 1798, and they're joined by militia regiments and fensible regiments from Britain as well as regular British troops.

但一旦他们在战场上击败了叛军，便继续开展类似的反叛乱行动，其残酷程度与伊恩所描述的1797年阿尔斯特地区的暴行如出一辙。

But once they've kind of defeated the rebels in the field, again they continue with this counterinsurgency campaign that has the same sort of brutality as what Ian was describing in Ulster in 1797.

当康沃利斯于1798年被任命为爱尔兰武装部队总司令时，他对爱尔兰军队的纪律涣散感到震惊，并试图迅速加以控制，以阻止军队此时对无辜平民实施的种种暴行。

And when Cornwallis is appointed commander in chief of the Irish Armed Forces in 1798, he's shocked by the indiscipline of the military in Ireland and tries to quickly get that under control to tries to stop some of the depredations that they're perpetrating against innocent civilians at this stage.

我可以再问你一下，利亚姆吗？

Can I come back to you, Liam?

法国人有没有再次出现的迹象？

Is there any sense which the French come back?

确实有这种迹象。

For there is a sense.

你能

Can you

跟我们说说吗？

tell us about it?

可以。

Yes.

嗯。

Yeah.

因此，联合爱尔兰人加倍努力说服法国人。

So the United Irishman redoubled their efforts to persuade the French.

看。

Look.

你已经试过一次了。

You've tried once.

你肯定应该再试一次。

You surely should try again.

法国人非常不愿意这样做。

The French are very reluctant to do this.

他们想看到明确的证据，证明他们可以在爱尔兰支持一场成功的起义。

They want to see clear evidence that they could support a successful, rebellion in Ireland.

因此，当1798年5月起义爆发时，巴黎的联合爱尔兰特工获得了机会，试图说明起义已经爆发。

So when the rebellion, does break out in May 1798, it gives, United Irish agents in Paris the opportunity to try and explain rebellion has now broken out.

现在是你们再次来真正支持我们的时候了。

It's time for you to come and back us, properly once again.

但当然，法国人措手不及，根本无法派出所需的兵力。

But, of course, the French are caught unawares, and they're really not able to to send the the number of troops that are necessary.

而且，无论如何，他们的注意力现在放在别处，特别是埃及——卡特琳娜已经提到了。

And, anyway, their attention is elsewhere, now particularly in Egypt, which which Katrina has mentioned already.

所以法国人抵达了。

So the French arrive.

他们来得太晚了。

They arrive too late.

他们到达了错误的地方。

They arrive in the wrong place.

他们带的兵力太少。

They arrive with too few troops.

因此，由让·兰伯特指挥的一千名法军于1798年8月22日抵达卡勒拉湾，该地位于康诺特郡北部，绝对不是联合爱尔兰人的根据地。

So a thousand troops under the command of Jean Lambert arrive at Callalla Bay, which is in North County Connaught, definitely not a United Irish stronghold, on the 08/22/1798.

他们只好尽力而为。

Now they make the best of it.

他们动员了当地一些人加入起义事业。

They rally local people who who join the cause.

他们进攻卡斯尔巴，并在那里击败了政府军，取得了溃败性的胜利。

They attack Castlebar where they they defeat government forces in this route at at at Castlebar.

他们宣布成立爱尔兰共和国。

They declare an Irish republic.

他们任命约翰·缪尔为临时政府总统，并建立了初步的共和体制。

They appoint John Muir as president of the provisional government of So they set up rudimentary republican structures.

但当然，他们面临着与爱尔兰联合会在其他地方相似的问题：是应该留下来占领领土，还是应该继续进军？

But, of course, they're faced with with a similar problem to the United Irishman elsewhere, which is should they stay and hold territory or should they march out?

他们选择了进军。

And they march out.

他们决定向都柏林进军，以制造最大的恐慌，而且他们清楚自己根本没有成功的可能。

They decide ahead for Dublin to cause maximum panic, and they must know that they have no chance of success.

他们在博恩茅斯被阻止，该地位于爱尔兰中部的朗福德郡，于9月8日被击败。

And they're stopped at Boughnemouth, which is in County Longford in the center of Ireland where they're defeated on the September 8.

法国人被俘为战俘，其中许多人后来作为战俘被交换。

The French are taken prisoners of war, and many of them are exchanged later as prisoners of war.

那些加入他们的爱尔兰人，许多被吊死在最近的树上。

The Irish who had joined them, many of those are strung up on the nearest tree.

说到卡特琳娜关于爱尔兰如何被平定的观点，实际上存在一种双重政策，一方面在某些方面采取宽大处理。

And, you know, going back to Katrina's point about how Ireland is pacified, there there's a sort of double policy going on, one of leniency in in some respects.

总督康沃利斯希望鼓励爱尔兰联合会叛军投降。

Cornwallis, the lord lieutenant, wants to encourage United Irish rebels to surrender.

但在他认为必要时，他会使用极端的暴力和残酷手段。

But where necessary, as he perceives it, he uses extreme violence brutality.

伊恩所提到的那种恐怖手段，也被用于镇压叛乱以平定全国。

The the kind of terror that Ian was talking about extends into the rebellion to pacify the country.

伊恩，黑尔·麦格拉思，这场叛乱对天主教徒群体产生了什么影响？

Ian, Hale McGrath, what impact did the rebellion have on the Catholic population?

卡特琳娜提到，镇压在叛乱期间及之后持续进行，其中一种表现就是教堂被焚毁。

Katrina has mentioned, severe repression continued during the rebellion and after it indeed, and one manifestation of that was chapel burning.

因此，在韦克斯福德郡有33座天主教教堂或礼拜堂被烧毁。

So there are 33 Catholic chapels or churches burned in County Wexford.

同时，正如卡特琳娜所指出的，爱尔兰的武装部队中约有四分之三是爱尔兰籍士兵，其中许多人是天主教徒。

At the same time, as Katrina also pointed out, the armed forces in Ireland, about three quarters of them consist of Irish recruits, many of whom are Catholic.

因此，新教徒的反应在一定程度上受到了制约。

So there's some kind of constraint on that Protestant reaction.

当时爱尔兰最有影响力的天主教人士可能是都柏林大主教约翰·托马斯·特洛伊，他向爱尔兰天主教徒发布了一封牧函，称：看看法国正在发生什么。

The most influential Catholic in Ireland at this point is probably John Thomas Troy, the archbishop of Dublin, who issues a pastoral letter to Irish Catholics in which he says, look at what's happening in France.

看看罗马正在发生什么。

Look at what's happening in Rome.

到目前为止，庇护六世已经被流放。

Pius the sixth has been exiled by this stage.

看看低地国家正在发生什么。

Look at what's happening in the Low Countries.

在那里，你会看到法国统治的样子。

There you will see what French rule looks like.

这是暴政。

It's tyranny.

这是专制。

It's despotism.

另一方面，在爱尔兰，你们在迫害面前的忍耐已经开始结出果实，因为这段时间以来，英国人一直在向爱尔兰天主教徒让步，部分原因是他们希望利用爱尔兰天主教人口这一尚未开发的人力资源。

In Ireland, on the other hand, your patience in the face of persecution has begun to bear fruit because all of this time, the British have been making concessions to Irish Catholics, partly because they want that untapped resource of manpower presented by the Irish Catholic population.

特洛伊是一个非常有趣的人物，因为他从欧洲的视角看待一切。

And Troy is a very interesting figure because he saw everything in European terms.

他在罗马接受了培训，在那里度过了二十一年。

He had been trained in Rome where he spent twenty one years.

他曾在低地国家待过。

He'd been in the Low Countries.

他在布鲁塞尔接受祝圣。

He was consecrated in Brussels.

布鲁塞尔的宗座大使负责管理爱尔兰天主教会。

The Brussels Nuncio had oversight of the Irish Catholic Church.

他曾前往法国，那里有四百名爱尔兰学院的学生和教师。

He travelled in France where there were 400 students and masters in Irish colleges.

所有这些在惩罚时代维系爱尔兰教会的学院，都被法国共和国及其军队关闭了。

All of those colleges which had kept the Irish church alive during the penal era were shut down by the French Republic and by the armies of the French Republic.

因此，特罗伊是一个非常关键的人物，他帮助天主教徒度过了爱尔兰政治的下一阶段——皮特认为这是解决他在爱尔兰面临的各种问题的答案，他希望保留天主教解放的可能性，即此时意味着让天主教徒进入议会，作为联盟协议的一部分。

So Troy is a very key figure because he helped steer the Catholics through the next phase of Irish politics, which is the union that Pitt thinks is the answer to the variety of problems he faces in Ireland, and he wants to keep open the possibility that Catholic emancipation, which at this point now means getting Catholics into parliament, that that could be part of the union settlement.

卡特琳娜，这场叛乱最初是如何影响新教徒的？

Katrina, how did it affect the Protestants at first, this rebellion?