大韩帝国

BBC之声，音乐、广播、播客。

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

这里是BBC广播四台的《In Our Time》节目，也是您能在BBC之声和我们官网上找到的千余期节目之一。如果您向下滚动本期页面，会发现附带的阅读清单。希望您喜欢这期节目。大家好。1897年10月，朝鲜国王宣布自己为皇帝，以匹配周边俄罗斯、中国和日本帝王的地位，朝鲜半岛由此成为他的帝国。

This is In Our Time from BBC Radio four, and this is one of more than a thousand episodes you can find on BBC Sounds and on our website. If you scroll down the page for this edition, you'll find a reading list to go with it. I hope you enjoyed the program. Hello. In October 1897, the king of Korea declared himself emperor to match the status of the neighboring Russian, Chinese, and Japanese emperors with Korea's peninsula, his empire.

这是在世界列强（包括欧美国家）要么想打开朝鲜贸易大门、要么企图殖民它的背景下，对独立与主权的一次争取。朝鲜帝国仅存续了十三年，却是该国乃至整个地区经历巨变的时期——现代化进程与战争交织，带来深远影响。与我共同探讨朝鲜帝国的是：爱丁堡大学日韩研究讲师霍莉·史蒂文斯、谢菲尔德大学韩国研究讲师德里克·克莱默，以及剑桥大学亚洲与中东研究学院副教授、沃尔森学院研究员金努里。努里，让我们从你开始。在宣布建立帝国之前，朝鲜由谁统治？

This is a bid for independence and sovereignty when the world's major powers, including those in Europe and America, either wanted to open Korea up to trade or to colonize it. The Korean empire lasted only thirteen years, yet it was a time of great transformation for this state and the whole region marked by modernization and wars with lasting consequences. With me to discuss the Korean empire are Holly Stevens, lecturer in Japanese and Korean studies at the University of Edinburgh Derek Kramer, lecturer in Korean studies at the University of Sheffield and Nuri Kim, associate professor in Korean studies at the faculty of Asian and Middle Eastern studies at the University of Cambridge and fellow of Wollstone College. Let's start with you, Nuri. Who had been ruling Korea up to this point, up to the point where they declared themselves to be an empire?

朝鲜由李氏家族统治，即李氏王朝，这个王朝统治朝鲜约五百年。五百年？是的，五百年。无论以何种标准衡量，这都是非常漫长的时期，甚至相较于中国历代王朝也是如此。

So Korea is ruled by the Yi family, the Yi dynasty, which has been ruling Korea for about five hundred years. Five hundred years? Five hundred years. Yes. That's a very long time by any standards, especially compared to, let's say, even Chinese dynasties.

朝鲜国号为'朝鲜'，这也是王朝的名称。这个王朝展现出非凡的生存能力，屡次面临威胁——尤其是大规模外敌入侵，比如十六、十七世纪日本人的侵略，以及当时正在征服中国的满族人的进攻。但朝鲜人民和王朝一次次化险为夷。

The name of Korea is Joseon. That's the name of the dynasty. And, again, it is a dynasty that has demonstrated remarkable survival skills. Time and time again, they were threatened by various forces, especially large scale foreign invasions, for instance, in the sixteenth and seventeenth century invasions by the Japanese, but also by the Manchus who were taking over China as well. But time and time again, the Koreans managed and the dynasty managed to survive.

因此这次将朝鲜转变为帝国的尝试，本质上是王朝延续生命的又一次努力，尽管这次结果并不那么成功。

So this attempt to turn Korea into an empire is very much another instance of the dynasty trying to prolong its lifespan, although this time it won't be quite as as successful.

它面临的大山是中国。当时朝鲜是如何应对中国的？

Its big mountain was China. How did it deal with China?

这实际上是个非常重要的问题。作为一个位于中国这个庞然大物门口的小国，你们是如何生存下来的？因此，朝鲜人不得不运用大量外交手段，经常需要阿谀奉承，甚至不得不扮演对中国忠心耿耿的藩属角色。

That is actually a very important question. How do you survive when you're such a small country located at the doorsteps of this huge behemoth, which is China? And so Koreans had to use a lot of diplomatic finesse. They had to use a lot of flattery, and oftentimes they really had to buy into this role of being this very loyal vassal to China.

他们是怎么做到的

How did they do

？他们通过频繁向中国派遣朝贡使团来实现这一点，有时派出的使团数量甚至超出中国的预期。

that? They did so by sending a lot of tributary missions to China, sometimes even more missions than the Chinese even expected.

什么是朝贡使团？

What what was a mission?

朝贡使团就是派遣数十甚至数百名使者前往中国，同时携带大量贡品——实质上是礼物。没错，礼物。可能是黄金、白银，

A tributary mission is when you sent dozens, maybe even hundreds of delegates to to China along with a lot of tributes, actual presents and Gifts. Yes. Gifts. It it can be gold. It can be silver.

也可能是马匹、人口，包括太监和女性。

It can be horses. It can be people, eunuchs and and women.

那中国是否曾试图强行夺取这些贡品？

And did the were there any was was China edging to try to get hold of it?

中国，至少在朝鲜王朝时期，并未真正试图吞并朝鲜，因为朝鲜作为非常忠诚、尽职的藩属国表现得极为出色。因此中国确实没有必要接管朝鲜，这也使得朝鲜人能够保持相当程度的自治权。

China, at at least in the during the Joseon Dynasty, there was no attempt to actually take over Korea because Korea was doing such a good job playing that role of very loyal, very dutiful vassal state. So there was really no need for the Chinese to take over Korea, and this is what allowed Koreans to actually maintain a significant amount of autonomy.

Korea这个名字是怎么来的？

Where does the name Korea come from?

Korea这个名称实际上源自公元前一世纪建立的高句丽古国。后来名称简化为高丽，十世纪时又被另一个朝鲜王朝——高丽王朝重新启用。这一时期朝鲜人与中东商人有过少量接触，商人们将这个名称引入西方。于是Korea逐渐演变为西方对朝鲜的称呼，某种程度上这是个时代错位的术语——用古老名称指代朝鲜。当然朝鲜人已不再使用这个称谓，但它已成为西方世界的官方称呼。

The name Korea actually comes from this ancient kingdom called Koguryo, which was established in the first century BC. Later on, the name was shortened to Koryo, And then later on, it was also revived in the tenth century by another Korean dynasty, which is called Koryo dynasty. And this is the time when Koreans had some very limited contact with merchants from the Middle East, and they then introduced the term to the West. And Korea then becomes Korea, and this is in some ways, it's an anachronistic term to it's it's referring to Korea by this very old name. And Koreans, of course, no longer use the term, but it's the term that has become the official term here in the West.

Holly，欧美国家曾如何试图打开朝鲜国门？

Holly, how had Europe and America been trying to open up Korea?

直到十九世纪中叶，欧美与朝鲜之间确实存在着某种程度的互不关注。朝鲜方面通过定期向中国朝贡，得以观察中国局势并发挥更大作用。因此朝鲜将西方接触视为潜在威胁——无论是通过贸易还是传教活动。天主教被认为极具颠覆性。正如Nudi提到的，朝鲜极力避免给中国任何干涉内政的借口，所以对西方交往缺乏兴趣。

Up until the mid nineteenth century, there's a certain amount of mutual disinterest, honestly, between Europe and America and Korea. On one side, the Koreans through their regular tribute missions to China, they have a window into seeing the events that are happening in China and playing more of a role. And so on the Korean side, they see the potential engagement with the West as potentially disruptive either through trade or through missionary activity. Catholicism is considered quite subversive. So on the Korean side, there's a lack of interest in engaging, especially because as Nudi mentioned, the Koreans are trying to avoid giving China any excuse to interfere in Korean affairs.

朝鲜非常珍视其自治权。通过抵制西方接触，朝鲜人认为这也能防止中国进一步介入其事务。而欧美方面虽有些许接触尝试，但并非大规模有组织的行动，更多是个别船只的偶然尝试，试探能否取得进展。但朝鲜很擅长将自己塑造成贫瘠、资源匮乏的形象。

Korea really guards its autonomy. And so by deflecting Western engagement, Koreans believe that this will also prevent increased Chinese involvement in their affairs. On the European and American side, there are some attempts to approach Korea, but this is really not a large scale or concerted organized effort. It's really individual ships chancing things, trying to show up and see if they can make any advance. But again, Korea is quite good at presenting itself as poor, lacking resources.

基本上朝鲜会告诉西方人：'回中国去和中国谈吧，我们无权与你们交涉'。这种情况在十九世纪中叶有所改变——一名法国传教士偷渡入朝被发现后处决，一艘美国商船试图沿大同江航行时被朝鲜击沉，全体船员遇难。自此法国和美国对朝鲜采取了更强势的态度。

And it basically, you know, tells them go back to China and talk to China. We we're not allowed to talk to you. This changes somewhat in the mid nineteenth century, A French missionary actually sneaks into Korea and is discovered and is executed. And also an American trading ship tries to sail down the Taedong River, and it is destroyed by the Koreans, including all of the crew. And so from the mid nineteenth century, France and The United States, they act a little more aggressively toward Korea.

1866年和1871年，两国都派遣了惩罚性远征军，但朝鲜军队成功击退了这些规模相对较小的入侵。

They both send punitive missions in 1866 and 1871, but the Korean military is able to to rebuff those quite well because they're relatively small scale.

那为什么朝鲜会在1876年向日本开放呢？

So why did it open up to Japan in 1876?

我认为必须指出，当时朝鲜仍对与外部势力——尤其是欧美国家——接触保持高度警惕。但局势正在发生变化。至少部分朝鲜和中国官员逐渐达成共识，认为与西方国家某种程度的接触不可避免。尽管心存戒备，他们仍认为朝鲜若以防御姿态与列强接触，反而能避免更大规模的军事冲突。受中国和日本无力阻止此类接触的前车之鉴影响，中朝两国少数官员逐渐接受了这种观点。

I think it's important to mention that Korea is still very wary of engagement with external, especially European and American countries at this time. However, things are changing somewhat. There is a growing consensus among at least some Korean and Chinese officials that contact with Western nations is inevitable to some extent. And so even though there is this wariness, it's considered beneficial if Korea were to defensively engage with foreign powers and so to prevent a larger scale military conflict. And so gradually there are a small number of Chinese and Korean officials who come to share this understanding, especially looking at the experience of China and Japan and, you know, their inability to also prevent this kind of engagement.

另一个变化是：高宗国王1864年登基时尚未成年，其父大院君摄政长达十年。大院君在对外交往方面态度更为保守。而1873年亲政后的高宗，开始倾向采取更温和的路线来审慎处理与列强的关系。

Another change that we see, so Kodong the king came to the throne in 1864 when he was still a minor. And so for the first decade of his rule, his father, the Taewongun, ruled on his behalf. And the Taewongun was much more conservative in terms of his outlook and willingness to engage with foreign powers. Kojong comes to the throne, like, to to rule for himself in 1873. And so he starts then to to lean into this more moderate approach to cautiously engage with foreign powers.

因此当高宗派遣使团赴华时，他指示部分官员收集更多情报。当1875年日本效仿美国当年对日策略逼近朝鲜时，朝鲜已有所准备，并抓住这个机会逐步开放。

And so when Kochong is sending diplomatic missions to China, he's instructing some of those officials to find out more information. And so when the Japanese arrive in 1875, very much emulating how the Americans approached Japan, the Koreans are ready. And so they do seize this opportunity to to gradually open.

谢谢德里克·克莱默教授。那么朝鲜在1880年代观察他国动向时，是如何启动现代化进程的？

Thank you. Derek Kramer. So Korea's looking around in the eighteen eighties, seeing what others are doing. How did Korea start to modernize?

当时极少有人使用'现代化'这个表述，主流讨论聚焦于对外开放与交流。这体现在两个层面：正如霍莉教授提到的精英政治层面的辩论，以及我们称之为'大院君'的个体所展现的强烈能动性。

So at the time, there's very few people who are using the language of modernization. Generally, the conversation is about engagement and opening up. And this happens on two registers. Holly already mentioned the types of debates that are happening at the level of elite politics, and we see the robust agency of this individual. We call them the Taewangun.

他是一位摄政王，高宗皇帝的父亲，一方面试图巩固国家权力，既因他作为摄政者的身份使然，也源于对地区格局变动及半岛整体稳定性的某种不确定与忧虑。因此这一时期精英政治层面推行的改革，通常以国家集权项目为特征。其中两大工程首推首尔市中心的景福宫重建——若你查看韩国地图或今日首尔游览，这里始终是热门景点，堪称城市的心脏地带。

He's a he's a regent, Kojong's father, who is, on the one hand, trying to simply solidify state power both because he's acting as a regent and that serves him well, but also because of a a certain uncertainty or concern about regional shifts and the overall stability of the Peninsula. And so the types of reforms that are being pursued at this time at the level of elite politics are usually characterized through state centralization projects. The two big ones would be the reconstruction reconstruction of Gyeongbok Palace in downtown Seoul. And this is if you see a map of Korea or if you if you tour through Seoul today, this is always like a popular tourist site. It's the sort of the center of of the city.

该宫殿最初建于首尔被确立为王朝首都之时，后因努里亚提及的日本入侵而毁坏。十九世纪六十年代，高宗决定重建宫殿，但采取的方式是发行货币，这开启了朝鲜经济长达数十年的通胀趋势。

This was initially constructed when when Seoul was established as the capital of the dynasty. It was destroyed during those invasions by the Japanese that Nuria had mentioned. It's in the eighteen sixties that Kojong decides he's gonna reconstruct the palace. However, he does this by way of issuing currency. So it's the start of decades of inflationary tendencies within the Korean economy.

这属于国家在精英阶层实施的两大重要干预之一。另一项则是现代化军队的建设——1876年《江华条约》签订后，朝鲜军方挑选单一部队进行现代化改造，包括新制服、新战术与新训练。所有这些都发生在精英政治层面，各派系争论着'我们应如何与外界互动？'

But this is one of the sort of two major interventions by the state at the elite level. The other is the construction of a modern military, the attempt to develop this. This is following the signing of the Kangwa treaty in 1876. A single unit within the Korean military is selected for modernization, new uniforms, new tactics, new training. So all this is happening at the level of elite politics, and you have various political factions debating about, how do we wanna engage with the outside world?

我们对日本该采取何种政策？如何在维护主权的同时与中国合作？与此同时，在日常社会与经济交流层面，朝鲜正陷入巨大的动荡之中。哥伦比亚大交换的影响正在显现。

What is our policy towards Japan gonna be? How do we cooperate with the Chinese while maintaining our sovereignty? At the same time, at the level of the everyday and at the level of socioeconomic exchange, Korea is in the midst of an enormous amount of tumult. Right? There's the effects of the Colombian exchange.

对吧？在之前的几个世纪里，新的作物出现，新兴市场形成，半岛的人口结构发生变化，新思想也在不断传播。

Right? For the preceding couple of centuries, you have new crops, new markets emerging, shifts in the demographic composition of the peninsula, and new ideas circulating in.

但朝鲜仍深陷邻国间的竞争中。中国是如何以及为何在19世纪80年代重新确立其在半岛的地位的？

But Korea is still caught up in the competition between its neighbors. How and why did China reassert itself in the eighteen eighties?

中国在半岛重新确立存在感可追溯到我提到的那支新军队，这是高宗推行的一系列改革中体现某些转变的举措之一。这些士兵的军饷来自朝鲜军队中未被选中进行现代化的其他部队的薪资。最终，这些被忽视的朝鲜军队单位在‘壬午军乱’中起义，他们在首尔肆意妄为，针对他们认为的政治对手，烧毁了日本领事馆。解决这一动荡的办法是中国派兵进驻半岛。这标志着中国在半岛政治经济存在阶段的开始。

The reassertion of Chinese presence on the peninsula goes back to that new army that I mentioned, one of those reforms that characterizes some of the shifts that Kojong is pursuing. These soldiers are paid by gleaning the salaries from the other units in the Korean army that weren't selected for modernization. And, eventually, these neglected units within the Korean military, they rise up in this event called the or emo mutiny, and they basically run amok in Seoul targeting their perceived political opponents, burning down the Japanese consulate. The solution to this instability is the dispatchment of troops from China who move into the peninsula. It's the start of a phase of Chinese political and economic presence on the peninsula.

在此期间，新的贸易协议不断签署。中国商人和企业家在半岛各地往来频繁，1880年代中国势力在朝鲜半岛政治和经济领域的存在感显著增强。

Along the way, there are new trade agreements that are being signed. There's the circulation of traders and businessmen from China throughout the peninsula and a more robust presence of Chinese forces within the political sphere and the economic sphere of the peninsula in the eighteen eighties.

努里，我能接着问个问题吗？1897年前夕朝鲜面临多大程度的动荡？似乎被多方势力拉扯。

Can I follow that up with you, Nuri? How much turmoil was Korea facing in the lead up to 1897? Seems to being pulled in many directions.

是的，确实如此。当时局势极度动荡。例如1884年，激进改革派曾试图推翻政府，但未能成功。

Yes. Absolutely. There was a tremendous amount of turmoil. For instance, in 1884, there was this attempt to overthrow the government by radical reformers. They were not successful.

他们为何失败？

Why were they not successful?

因为他们缺乏足够的群众基础。这些年轻的激进改革者思想过于超前，当时朝鲜社会尚未准备好接受如此激进的改革。同时期还出现了新兴宗教运动，尤其是千禧年运动，最终引发了1894年东学党起义——这是朝鲜王朝历史上规模最大的叛乱。这场叛乱导致中日两国介入，进而爆发了甲午战争。

Because they didn't have enough of a support base. They were very young radical reformers, but they were a little bit too far ahead of their times. Korean society didn't have necessarily an appetite for those radical reforms yet. And then, of course, we also have the emergence of new religious movements at this time and mil especially millenarian movements that led to the eighteen ninety four Tonghak rebellion, which was the largest rebellion that the Joseon dynasty had to face throughout its history. That rebellion then led to the intervention of both China and Japan, which led then to the first Sino Japanese war.

这场战争在朝鲜领土上打响，争夺的是对朝鲜的支配权。与此同时，日本正试图扩张势力，为此甚至刺杀了朝鲜国王的妻子闵妃。作为回应，朝鲜国王逃往俄国公使馆，使得俄罗斯也开始在朝鲜事务中扮演重要角色。

And the war is fought on Korean soil over who gets to dominate Korea. Another thing that's taking place is so for instance, the Japanese are now trying to assert themselves. As part of that, they actually assassinate the wife of the king, Queen Min. In response to that, the Korean king flees to the Russian legation. So Russia now plays a significant role in the Korean context as well.

朝鲜政府及君主开始倒向俄国，向俄国学习。这种倾向最终部分促成了大韩帝国的诞生。

And Korea the Korean government, the Korean monarch, they begin to side with the Russians. They begin to learn from the Russians. And partially, a result of that is then this transformation into the Korean empire.

谢谢。霍莉·霍莉·史蒂文斯。高宗国王，为什么您想在1897年宣布建立帝国并自立为帝？

Thank you. Holly Holly Stevens. Why did Guojong the king why did you want to declare an empire and himself emperor in, 1897?

这涉及朝鲜政治中长期酝酿的几个不同问题。一方面，这标志着朝鲜与中国传统关系的彻底断绝。中国已在甲午战争中战败，因此朝鲜此举正式且象征性地宣告自己与中国平起平坐且独立自主。我们可以从高宗宣布大韩帝国时采用的一些象征符号中看出这一点。传统上，作为国王的高宗地位低于中国皇帝，他穿红色袍服，而中国皇帝穿黄色龙袍。

This addresses several different issues that have been fomenting in Korean politics for a while. On one hand, this really is the final severance of that traditional relationship that Korea has had with China. China has already lost the Sino Japanese war, and so this really is Korea formally and symbolically announcing itself as equal to China and also independent. And we can see this in some of the symbols that that Kodong adopts in declaring the Korean empire. So traditionally, Kodong as king, right, which would be lower than the Chinese emperor, he would wear red robes and it was the Chinese emperor that wore yellow robes.

但在称帝后，高宗有时会身着黄袍，以此向中国正式表明两国关系的重大转变。与此同时，如努迪所言，在甲午战争期间，朝鲜政府进行了大规模改革。这实际上为朝鲜建立了一套所谓的现代政府体系。

But after declaring himself an emperor, Kodong sometimes wears the yellow robes, right, to formally symbolize to China that there is this big shift in their relationship. At the same time, as Nudi mentioned, in the midst of the Sino Japanese war, there's some large scale reforms of the Korean government that have taken place. And this really then establishes a, quote, unquote, modern system of government for Korea.

谢谢。德里克，当时正在进行哪些现代化改革？能否具体说明？

Thank you. Derek, what modernizations were underway? Can we specify those?

当时正发生许多变革，涉及多个层面。港口的开放使商品涌入，深刻改变了农村经济形态。我之前提到的通货膨胀——当他们重建宫殿时，大米外流至地区市场加剧了这一现象，推高了米价。大米不仅是食物，也是交易媒介，具有货币功能。

So there are a lot of changes afoot, and they're happening across multiple registers. The opening of ports is allowing for the influx of commodities that are transforming the the rural economies in in in really profound ways. Inflation that I mentioned when they rebuilt the palace, this is exasperated by the outflow of rice into regional markets, driving up the price of rice. That's something you eat, but rice is also something you buy with. It's currency.

对吧？与此同时，优质外国制成品大量涌入。假设你和家人原本以制革或编草鞋为生，突然间就要与亚洲日益工业化的资本主义产品竞争。这个层面可谓动荡不安。但政治领域也在发生变革。

Right? At the same time, you're having an influx of quality manufactured goods from abroad. So maybe you and your family had major living, I don't know, as leather workers or, making straw shoes, and suddenly you're competing with the products of an increasingly industrialized form of capitalism in Asia. So there is a tumult at that level. There's also transformations, though, in the the realm of politics.

我们此刻关注的是王室政治和精英政治。但具有讽刺意味的是，随着帝国的出现，对公民角色的新强调也随之产生。独立协会的部分 activism 活动就是通过报纸传播关于公民应有之义及如何作为韩国人表达自我的新思想。这与他们使用的语言、文字类型，特别是对中国的认知方式密切相关。

We were, at this point, focusing on royal politics and elite politics. But with the emergence of the empire, ironically, there's also a new emphasis on the role of the citizen, The Independence Club, part of their activism is built around working through newspapers and circulating new types of ideas about what a citizen should be and how they should express themselves as Koreans. And that has a lot to do with the language that they're using, the types of scripts they're using, and the ways that they're thinking about China in particular.

谢谢。Nuri，当时世界上还有许多其他皇帝和帝国。帝国对朝鲜意味着什么？

Thank you. Nuri, there were so many other emperors and empires around the world at that time. What did empire mean to Korea?

对朝鲜人而言，这主要意味着对国家主权的宣示，以及与周边国家——尤其是俄国、日本和中国——取得平等地位。因此它并非真正关于获取殖民地或发起海外远征。朝鲜人根本负担不起这些事。他们当时甚至想都不敢想。事实上，观察这位皇帝登基后的首个举动极具启示性。

For Koreans, it largely meant an assertion of national sovereignty and obtaining parity with surrounding countries, especially Russia, Japan, and China. So it wasn't really about obtaining colonies and launching overseas expeditions. Koreans really couldn't afford these things. They couldn't even think about these things at this time. And in fact, it's very, telling to look at the first act that the emperor conducted as he was ascending to the imperial throne.

他做的第一件事就是建造一座祭坛，一座祭天坛

The first thing that he did was to actually set up an altar, a heaven worship altar that was

祭天。

Heaven worship.

是的。祭天坛。这很大程度上模仿了北京现存的中国版本。他会在坛上举行祭祀仪式。

Yes. Heaven worship altar. That was very much emulating the Chinese version that exist in Beijing. And he would conduct ceremonial offerings at the altar.

为何拥有这样一座祭祀场所如此重要？

Why was that so important to have an worship opera?

因为这使他能够宣称自己是天子，即皇帝。所以他大量运用更传统的中国象征体系来宣示自己的皇权。这在某种程度上是对中国的挑衅行为——因为此前只有中国皇帝才能直接与天沟通并自视为天子。但现在朝鲜国王提出了同样的主张，从而实现了与中国平起平坐。

Because this allowed him then to proclaim himself to be the son of heaven, which is the emperor. So he was very much using the more traditional Chinese symbolisms to assert his own imperial power. So this is an act of, in a way, defiance against the Chinese because previously, it was only the Chinese emperor who was able to communicate with heaven directly and consider himself the son of heaven. But now the Korean king is making the same claim, so he's achieving parity with China.

谢谢。德里克

Thank you. Derek

不过我也需要指出，这场知识分子运动——这些改革者通过创办报纸试图动员半岛民众接纳全球文明与启蒙的规范——他们往往并未对帝国提出强有力的批判。特别是独立俱乐部及其报纸《独立》，常会颂扬大英帝国的成功，并以此批评朝鲜人及其自身的政治立场。一旦他们自己面临原始帝国主义势力的干预，这就成了紧张与讽刺的焦点。

I also need to note, though, that that intellectual movement, these reformers who are producing newspapers and trying to basically mobilize the citizenry of the Peninsula to embrace global norms of civilization and enlightenment, they often do not articulate a robust con critique of empire. So in particular, the Independence Club, their newspaper, The Independent, would often celebrate the British Empire for being so successful, and they would use that as a criticism of Koreans and of their own political position. This becomes a point of tension and irony once they themselves find themselves exposed to the the interventions of an original imperial power.

是的，容我插一句。我认为朝鲜维护主权的方式之一，某种程度上遵循了努迪你提到的模式，即通过外交手段。此时朝鲜确实在试图利用列强间的相互制衡——当中国过度干涉朝鲜内政时，朝鲜就转而寻求美国的支持。

Yeah. If I could jump in. I think one of the ways that we see Korea try and maintain its sovereignty, it kind of follows that the pattern that you already mentioned, Nudi, of Korea trying to use its diplomacy. And so at this point, Korea really is trying to play other countries off one another. And so when the Chinese start to overstep and intervene too much in Korean affairs, Korea tries to then rely on the Americans.

而当日本越界时，朝鲜又试图借助俄国的利益来抵消其他列强的要求。这种策略短期内有效，但最终未能阻止后来的结局。

And when the Japanese overstep and their bounds, Korea then tries to use interest from the Russians to counterbalance some of the demands from other powers. And so this it worked for a while, but ultimately, it doesn't really prevent what happens later.

此外他们也在动员新思潮。我们讨论了很多民族主义，但这同样是个种族团结、泛亚主义兴起的时代——关于亚洲各势力（尤其是不同政体）应如何协作的讨论与分歧，此刻正在展开。

And then also they're mobilizing new ideas as well. Right? So we've been talking about basically nationalism a lot, but this is also the era where we're seeing new ideas about racial solidarity and pan Asianism and how different powers, different polities in Asia in particular, should collaborate and work together is a point of discussion and dissent at this time.

霍莉，我能再请教你吗？国家当然需要资金，这个新兴帝国的现代化资金从何而来？

Can I come back to you for a moment, Holly? States need money, of course. Where did this new empire get its money its wealth from to modernize?

这也是朝鲜帝国面临的挑战之一。此时的朝鲜仍是农业经济，尽管数百年来财政相对稳定，甚至能调拨资金赈灾，但现代化项目耗资巨大。

This is also one of the challenges that the Korean empire is facing. At this time, Cheosun is an agrarian economy. And so even though for several hundred years, it's had relatively stable finances even to the point of being able to mobilize funds to support famine relief. When it comes to modernization projects, a lot of these are very expensive.

在告诉我们这些项目有多昂贵之前，都有哪些项目？

What projects are there before you tell us how expensive they were?

包括军队的改良、部分军事装备的升级，同时引入电报通信等新基础设施，引进新技术，为部分宫殿通电并引入电力。这些项目难以通过现有财源来资助。当时朝鲜王朝的主要收入来源是土地税，但提高税率有其限度，过度征收会引发农民不满甚至乡村叛乱。大韩帝国初期开展的首批项目之一便是大规模土地调查，旨在将更多土地纳入税册，以此增加税收。

Improving the military, upgrading some of the military, but also introducing new infrastructure like telegraph communications, importing new technologies, electrifying some of the palaces and introducing electricity. It's hard to finance them from existing sources of finance. The land tax provides the majority of the Joseon state's income at this time. However, there's only so far you can raise that before you start to then provide frustration and prompt sources of rebellion and revolt in the countryside. One of the first projects that the Korean empire does engage in is a large scale land survey trying to get more land onto the tax registers and increase tax receipts in that way.

但这是个缓慢的过程，而且土地税收入的提升空间终究有限。其他财源方面，通商口岸的新贸易带来了一些关税收入，但受限于贸易总量及条约中某些不利条款——朝鲜签署的部分条约模仿了中国和日本的不平等条约，对朝条件并不优厚。

But this is a slow process, And again, there's a limit to how high you can raise your income from the land tax. Other sources of finance, there's some new revenue coming from customs receipts for the new trade that is taking place in the port cities. However, there are limits just based on the volume of trade that is taking place, as well as some of the terms of the treaties are unfavorable. Right? Some of these treaties that Korea has signed, they do mimic some of the unequal treaties in a way that we see in China and Japan, and so it's not quite as favorable to Korea as it could be.

其他收入渠道也伴随问题。朝鲜能够获得贷款，主要来自中国和日本，但部分贷款附有条件，尤其当中日两国都试图扩大在朝鲜的政治影响力时。事实上，日本后来正是以这些贷款为由，效仿英国在埃及的做法，进一步干涉朝鲜内政。

Other sources of income also come with problems. So Korea can get loans, and it does get loans chiefly from China and Japan. However, some of this comes with strings attached, especially when China and Japan are both trying to increase their political influence in Korea. And indeed, eventually, when Japan does try to leverage more of its interest in Korean politics, it uses these loans as a justification to have a greater sway in Korean politics, actively mimicking what Britain was doing in Egypt using the loans as a pretext for further involvement in Korean politics.

谢谢。德里克·克莱默，能否详细谈谈朝鲜内部变革所获得的支持类型？

Thank you. Derek Derek Kramer, can you talk about the kind of backing, how we specify more, that were the changes we're getting inside Korea?

核心问题在于难以就必要变革类型达成共识。当时普遍认为需要确立全球标准和规范并使其在朝鲜扎根，但具体内涵众说纷纭。传教士或基督徒可能认为皈依新教是个人与国家获得自主、开化与文明的前提；有人主张剪发易服；

So one of the issues is that it's difficult to reach a consensus about what type of change is necessary. There's a broad understanding at this time that there are global standards and global norms that have to be reached, that that have to be entrenched within Korea. But no one is on the same page about what that might be. So if you're a missionary or a Christian convert, you might think that becoming becoming a Protestant is conditional for establishing both oneself and the nation as autonomous and enlightened and civilized. It might be cutting your hair.

也有人认为需购买特定商品。这场关于文明开化与现代化的讨论呈现多元形态，但日本常被各方援引为成功案例。例如保守儒学者就担忧废除传统科举制度（基于儒家经典）等变革，他们为维护儒学教育体系而动员支持者时，往往会以日本为例进行论证。

It might be buying a certain product. The discussion at this time about civilization and enlightenment, about modernization in general, is playing out, in a variety of ways. But, generally, the case study that's referenced as being successful is Japan amongst a variety of individuals and a variety of views. So, just to cite one, conservative Confucians at this time are worried about all the changes that are being presented, movement away from a traditional examination system, for example, that's based off of the Confucian classics. And the argument that they would mobilize individuals who are sympathetic for the continuity of using a Confucian based education system was occasionally that they would cite the Japanese and say, look.

日本作为现代化进程的成功典范，以新的方式保留了这些传统和课程体系。关于语言使用、性别与阶级角色，类似的争论也在进行中。当时人们普遍认为朝鲜处境艰难。许多人将朝鲜与埃及、越南或菲律宾的境况相提并论，但对于应该采取何种措施或实际可行的方案，却缺乏共识。

The Japanese, a success story of modernization, have retained these traditions, retained this curriculum in a new way. There's similar debates underway about the use of language and about gender and class roles. So there is a consensus at the time that Korea is in a very difficult position. There's a lot of parallels being made between what's happening in Korea and what's happening in Egypt and what's happening in Korea to Vietnam or The Philippines, but there's a a lack of consensus about what should be done or indeed what could be done.

谢谢。Noohi Kim，当时朝鲜人自身有哪些迹象表明，他们正在形成对于成为这个新国家、新世界一员意味着什么的理解？

Thank you. Noohi Kim, what what signs were there that Koreans themselves were developing an ideas of what it meant to be part of this new nation, this new world in a way?

是的，迹象非常多。例如，这一时期出现了书写朝鲜历史的新方式，历史开始被强调朝鲜脱离中国自治的笔法书写。朝鲜神话被重新发现和诠释，为朝鲜人提供有用的新历史。我们还看到对朝鲜谚文书写系统的重新评估——虽然它已存在数百年，但在政府圈层尤其是精英阶层中，文言文仍是通用语言。

Yes. There were many, many signs. So for instance, there were new ways of writing, Korean history emerging at this time, and history begins to be written in a way that emphasizes Korea's autonomy from China. Korean mythology is being rediscovered and reinterpreted to give Koreans a new useful past. We also see a reevaluation of the Korean vernacular writing system, which had existed for a couple of hundred years by this point, but within government circles and especially among the elite, it was still classical Chinese that was the lingua franca.

因此现在可以看到新兴知识分子完全使用朝鲜谚文出版著作。但正如Derek提到的，分歧依然严重。朝鲜人对新国家形态远未达成共识：有人要求扩大政治参与，主张设立议会；

So now you see intellectuals emerging who are publishing entirely in vernacular Korean writing system. At the same time, as Derek mentioned, there were still a lot of divisions. Koreans are not all in agreement about what the new Korean nation should look like. Some people want to have more political participation. They want to have a parliament.

有人试图限制王权——这自然引发与政府的冲突。但另一些人则构想朝鲜作为以日本为首的泛亚共同体成员，这些人后来讽刺性地开始支持日本吞并朝鲜。这些截然不同的国家愿景，或许也是朝鲜帝国在国内遭遇强烈抵抗的原因之一。

They want to check the king's power. Of course, this leads to conflict with the government, but there are also other Koreans who envision Korea's future as part of this kind of pan Asian community with Japan as the leader. And those people then would ironically begin to support the Japanese takeover of Korea. So you see, you have these widely diverging visions of what Korea should look like. And, again, maybe this is also one of the reasons why there was actually so much resistance against the Korean empire even domestically from within Korea.

Holly，如果观察当时首尔街景，你会看到哪些变化？

Holly, if you look if you were to look around the streets of Seoul, say, what changes would you be seeing?

有些基础设施变化：首尔出现了有轨电车，通电后电力公司还引进了电影放映——部分原因是电车票销售不佳需要创收。不过正如Derek之前提到的，发型变化也很显著。

There are some infrastructural changes. Seoul gets a a tram, a street car. There's electricity, and the electric company actually introduces films, movies. There's a trying to just, like, raise more money because not enough people are buying the tram tickets. I think, though, like Derek mentioned earlier, haircuts.

我认为这反映出一些正在发生的更大、更深层次的变革。对吧？因为城乡差异依然存在。首尔的许多变化仅限于首尔，但我们可以看到围绕改革必要性正在形成更广泛的共识。于是在1895年，高宗颁布法令要求朝鲜男性剪发。

And I think this points to some of the the bigger, deeper changes that are taking place. Right? Because there is a rural urban divide still. A lot of the changes in Seoul, they're limited to Seoul, but we can see this broader consensus forming around the need to reform. So in 1895, this is when Kojong announces a decree requiring Korean males to cut their hair.

传统上朝鲜人留长发。儒家思想认为身体发肤受之父母，因此不应以任何方式损害身体，包括剪发。朝鲜男性尤其是精英阶层，为证明自己遵守儒家规范——这是他们确立社会精英身份的方式之一——会蓄长发，特别是精英阶层还会将头发束成顶髻。

So traditionally Koreans have long hair. It was believed under Confucian thought that you receive your body from your parents. And so you should not harm your body in any way, and that extends to cutting your hair. So Korean males, especially elites, in order to prove their adherence to Confucian norms, which was one of the ways that they prove themselves as an elite in society. They maintained long hair and especially the elites as well, they would form it in a top knot.

这种发式逐渐承载了许多象征意义，关乎成年男子气概与社会地位。因此当高宗在1895年要求男性剪发时，引发了极大争议。高宗给出的理由是这更高效、更经济、更卫生，是现代性的象征，但这与许多人长期持有的国家观念和自身定位相冲突，所以遭到了相当普遍的抵制。

And this also then grew to have a lot of symbolism, adulthood masculinity in society. So when Kojong requires males to cut their hair, this is incredibly controversial in 1895. The justification from Kojong is that this is more efficient, more economic, it's more hygienic, it's a symbol of modernity, and yet it goes against a lot of the long standing ideas that a lot of people had about their country and their place in the country. So there's quite widespread resistance to this.

抵制行动有多成功？

How successful was the resistance?

确实相当成功。最初高宗强制要求剪发，后来改为鼓励剪发。也出现了极端抵制行为：有人因剪发之耻而自杀，包括男性或其妻子代夫自尽；还有人关闭首尔的店铺拒绝服从法令，实质上退出公共生活。这在189年造成了很大动荡。

Really quite successful. So so initially, Kodong required people to cut their hair and this gets walked back. It's become encouraged for people to cut their hair. Also, see quite extreme levels of resistance. Some people commit suicide, either males or wives on behalf of their husbands for the shame of having to cut their hair.

不过在接下来的大韩帝国时期，越来越多群体逐渐开始支持通过剪发表明对现代性的认同。比如之前提到的东学党起义军——虽然起义初期某些诉求包含对改革的反感，但起义被镇压后分化出的某些派系反而支持剪发运动。到20世纪初，港口城市与其他城市仍存在城乡差异，但在城市里短发已更常见，这成为自愿选择并因各种原因受到鼓励。

There are other people who close some of their shops in Seoul because they don't want to comply with the order. So they basically retreat from public life. So this is quite disruptive in 1895. However, throughout the following decade of the Korean empire period, gradually more and more groups come to support this idea that, you know, you should prove your commitment to modernity by cutting your hair. So we see I I think Nudi mentioned the Tonghak rebels earlier.

东学党起义军最初的部分诉求确实包含对某些改革的抵触。然而起义被镇压后，他们分裂成不同派系，其中后续出现的派系实际上站在了支持剪发、倡导剪发的一边。到二十世纪初，港口城市与其他城市之间仍存在城乡差异，在城市里你更可能见到留短发的人，这已成为自愿行为并因各种原因受到鼓励。

They had quite or wrapped up in some of the initial complaints of the Tonghak uprising were more antipathy against some of the reforms. However, after the the rebellion is put down, they they split into some of these different groups and these subsequent groups actually come out on the side of cutting one's hair and advocating for hair cutting. There's still a rural urban divide by the early twentieth century in the port cities and cities. You're more likely to find though people with short hair and this becomes voluntary and encouraged for a variety of different reasons.

谢谢你，德里克。1905年，日本和俄罗斯帝国交战，日本获胜。这对朝鲜产生了什么影响？

Thank you, Derek. In nineteen o five, the Japanese and Russian empires were at war and Japan won. How did that affect Korea?

这场战争深刻影响了朝鲜。战争本身起源于中日战争，日本人认为他们对满洲的诉求因俄、德、法三国在那场战争末期的干预而受挫。世纪之交中国义和团运动后，俄日两国再次在朝鲜半岛爆发战争。最初人们从种族视角看待这场战争，将其视为二十世纪伟大的种族战争。

This affected Korea profoundly. The war itself had its origins in the Sino Japanese war, and the feeling on the part of the Japanese that their claims over Manchuria were frustrated by Russian, German, and French intervention at the end of that war. After the Boxer Rebellion in China at the start of the century, war again breaks out on the peninsula between the Russians and the Japanese. This is initially viewed through the lens of race. This is the great race war of the twentieth century.

在欧洲，这无疑被视为欧洲白人文明与亚洲的战争。但在东亚，虽然较少被提及，人们同样透过这种视角观察战事。因此许多改革者最初期望能形成某种区域团结或联邦体系，有人甚至类比奥匈帝国，认为战争结果将带来东亚列强之间的主权、合作与持续现代化。然而实际上，日本帝国对半岛的控制权却因此得到了巩固。

Certainly, it was viewed in Europe as a war between white European civilization versus Asia. But also in East Asia, this is less well known, but it's also viewed through this lens. And so there is initially the hope amongst many reformers that there would be a type of regional solidarity or a type of federation. Sometimes people would make analogies to the Austro Hungarian Empire that whatever came out of this war would result in sovereignty, cooperation, and continued modernization between the great powers of East Asia. In fact, what happened was the consolidation of Japanese imperial power over the peninsula.

战争期间，日本修建了从釜山贯穿半岛直达满洲的铁路。战后，日本开始逐步推行吞并政策，最终通过1907年建立保护国制度，实质性地确立了统治。

Over the course of this conflict, they build a railroad from Pusan all the way up the peninsula to Manchuria. Eventually, the Japanese, upon the conclusion of the war, begin to slow walk annexation or a series of policies geared towards eventual annexation. This most profoundly takes form through the establishment of a protectorate in nineteen o seven.

努里，朝鲜人是如何意识到他们的帝国终结的？

How did the Koreans recognize when their empire was over, Nouri?

我认为他们在1905年就已明白这一点，当时朝鲜成为日本保护国，意味着朝鲜不能再以独立外交身份面对世界。此时义兵开始兴起，这些人奋起反抗这种局面。

So I think they already knew it by nineteen o five, and this is when Korea becomes a Japanese protectorate, which means that Korea can no longer represent itself diplomatically to the outside world. And at this time, you have the emergence of righteous armies, people who are rising up against this.

这些义兵具体做了什么？为什么称他们为'义'兵？

What is what do the righteous army do? Why were they righteous?

这是当时韩国人使用的一个术语。这些人在某种程度上是游击队员，他们当时正在与日本人作战。有时他们也会与韩国政府军交战，这些人对当时发生的政治变革感到不满和失望。尽管在1905年，一听到这个保护条约的消息，也有人选择了自杀。因此我相信许多人已经知道那意味着终结。

This is a term that Koreans were using. These are, in a way, guerrilla fighters who are fighting against the Japanese at this time. Sometimes they also fight against Korean government forces, people who are disgruntled and dissatisfied with the political changes that are taking place at this time. Though, you also have people committing suicide in nineteen o five once once they hear about this protectorate treaty. So I believe that many people already knew that that was the end.

当然，虽然韩国帝国的正式终结是在1910年，但到了1905年，他们已经预见到即将到来的命运。

Although, of course, the official end of the Korean empire is going to be 1910, but by nineteen o five, they already knew what was coming.

Zoe，关于这一天你还有什么想补充的吗？

Do you want to add anything more to this day, Zoe?

这种讽刺，或者说并非讽刺，而是现代化与现代性强加给那些试图避免殖民化的个体的问题。我所关注的这些知识分子，他们留在城市，出版报纸，传播关于文明与启蒙的思想，常常以日本为成功案例，说这就是我们需要的。我们需要铁路，需要医院，需要更好的卫生条件。

The type of irony or the the not maybe irony, but the type question of modernization and modernity forces upon individuals who are trying to avoid colonization. So the the individuals that I was focusing on, the intellectuals who stay in the city and are publishing these newspapers and circulating ideas about civilization and enlightenment, they're often pointing to Japan as a success case to say, this is what we need. We need a railroad. We need hospitals. We need more hygiene.

我们需要剪发，需要新的教育体系，需要不同类型的政治改革，不断参考欧洲政治文化的片段或日本实施的改革。1905年后发生的是，日本殖民政府来了，说，嘿，你们想要这些吗？我们会给你们。

We need to cut our hair, a new education system. We need different types of political reform, constantly referring to either figments of European political culture or or reforms done in Japan. What happens after nineteen o five is that the Japanese colonial state arrives and says, hey. You want those things? We'll give it to you.

对吧？我们会为你们修建铁路，建造医院，实施教育改革。对于那些追求某种民族主义政治的知识分子来说，当他们的现代化目标通过帝国的语言表达时，要找到立足点变得非常困难。

Right? We'll build you a railroad. We're gonna build you a hospital. We're going to implement educational reform. And it becomes very difficult for intellectuals who are pursuing a type of nationalist politics to find traction when their goals of modernization are articulated through the language of empire.

在日本的统治下，韩国人是如何建立民族认同感的？

How did Koreans build a sense of nationhood while under Japanese control?

自1910年起，当日本正式吞并朝鲜后，任何形式的政治表达在朝鲜境内变得极其困难。然而，仍有大量朝鲜人生活在海外。在满洲、中国、日本以及美国都有相当规模的朝鲜人群体，正是这些人持续发展着关于朝鲜民族身份和民族主义的理念。由于朝鲜人散居世界各地，他们各自吸收了不同的思想影响。正因如此，他们对朝鲜未来应呈现何种面貌也形成了迥异的构想。

From 1910 onward, when Japan formally annexes Korea, any kind of political expression becomes very, very difficult within Korea. However, there were still a lot of Koreans outside of Korea. You have a very significant population of Koreans in Manchuria, in China, in Japan, well as in The United States, and those people are the ones who continue to develop ideas about Korean nationhood and Korean nationalism. Now because Koreans are scattered across the world, they all imbibe influence from different sources. And because of that, they also develop very different ideas of what the future of Korea should look like.

部分人主张朝鲜应效仿西方民主国家建立民主制度，而另一些人则开始关注例如苏维埃俄国，从中汲取灵感，坚信朝鲜的未来在于共产主义。于是，关于朝鲜发展道路的观点出现严重分歧，这些分歧最终在1945年后以某种方式体现在朝鲜与韩国的对立中，尤其是南北韩之间的意识形态竞争。

Some people would support a democratic system that Korea should look like, more like a western democratic country, whereas other people, they now look toward, for instance, Soviet Russia, and they take inspiration from Soviet Russia, and they believe that Korea's future lies with communism. So, again, you have very widely diverging views of what Korea should look like, and these views then all, in some ways, begin to be reflected later on after 1945 in North And South Korea, especially the competition between North And South Korea.

德里克，你想加入讨论吗？

Derek, would you like to come in?

是的。这个观点与当今半岛特性紧密相关。我们之前的讨论多聚焦于城市知识分子阶层，他们试图厘清文明开化与现代化对朝鲜的意义，并应对相关政治变局。但自1890年代起直至后来，农村地区始终存在武装抵抗运动。日俄战争时期达到高潮，最终，那些

Yeah. This is a really important point that connects to the character of the Peninsula today. Most of our conversation, we've been focusing on intellectuals in the city trying to work out what civilization and enlightenment, what modernization means for them, and and navigating the politics connected to that. But throughout this period, starting in the in the eighteen nineties and continuing on afterwards, there's just armed resistance in the countryside. It reaches a climax around the time of the Russo Japanese war, and eventually, individuals who

是

are

反抗半岛殖民统治的斗士们被驱逐至满洲。这形成了两种民族抵抗路线的雏形：一种更偏向城市知识分子阶层，主张渐进温和改革；另一种则倾向暴力直接行动，主要在半岛外发展。到1930年代，后者看似毫无可行性。但至1945年，像金日成这样从满洲武装抵抗传统中走出的领袖，便拥有巨大的政治资本、本土正统性与权威，这为朝鲜建国奠定了根基。

fighting against the colonization of the peninsula are pushed out of the peninsula into Manchuria. But it stands as the germ for two tracks of nationalist resistance, One that tends to be a bit more urban, intellectual, gradual, and moderate, and one that tends to be a bit more violent, direct action oriented, and that's unfolding outside of the peninsula. By the nineteen thirties, the second of those two seems completely implausible. But by 1945, if you're someone like Kim Il sung walking out of Manchuria, walking out of that tradition of armed resistance, you have an enormous amount of political capital and domestic authenticity and and authority that roots the the establishment of the North Korean state.

这种转变是如何发生的？

How did it go from one to the other?

是的。于是在1943年，同盟国决定，例如朝鲜在战争结束后将不再属于日本。随着二战接近尾声，逐渐形成了这样的构想：为便利起见，朝鲜应被划分为两部分。北方由苏联军队占领，南方则由美军占领。

Yes. So in 1943, the Allied powers decide that, for instance, Korea will no longer be part of Japan once the war is war is over. And then gradually, developed this idea that, especially toward the end of of World War two, that Korea should be divided into two for convenience sake. The North should be occupied by the Soviet forces. The South should be occupied by American forces.

但这最初只是解除日本武装的临时措施。然而1945年后，随着冷战开始，美苏双方自然无法达成任何共识。他们无力实现朝鲜半岛的统一，这导致朝鲜与韩国的分裂状态长期持续。

But that was initially meant to be a temporary measure to disarm the Japanese. However, after 1945, once the Cold War sets in, of course, Americans and the Soviets, they're unable to agree on anything. They're unable to bring the two Koreas back together, and this then leads to this kind of perpetuation of the division between North And South Korea.

德里克，能否谈谈1910至1945年间的发展历程？这段历史似乎非常引人注目。

Derek, can you talk about this development from 1910 to 1945? It seems to be remarkable.

1910至1945年期间，这两个年份标志着日本对朝鲜半岛殖民统治的开始与结束。正如我们讨论过的，实际历史远比这复杂，但这两个日期肯定会出现在高中考试中。传统上这段时期被划分为三个阶段：首先是高压军事统治阶段，其次是所谓'文化统治'时期——以文化表达与生产力相对活跃为特征，最后是战时总动员阶段。

1910 to 1945 period, those are the two years that get booked in for Japanese colonization of the Korean Peninsula. I think as we've already discussed, it's a much more complicated story than that, but those are the two dates that will appear on a high school test, certainly. And then that period is broken up into three chunks conventionally. The first is a phase of intensive military rule. The second is a period that is characterized by a period known as cultural rule that is characterized by a form of greater cultural expression and productivity, and then a final phase of wartime mobilization.

这段宏大叙事中的关键转折点包括1919年——朝鲜半岛爆发了与'三一运动'相关的大规模政治抗议浪潮；第二个转折点是1930年代，随着中日战争爆发，朝鲜半岛建立起全面战争动员体制，帝国先后卷入与中国及后来美英盟军的重大军事冲突。

The main pivot points in that broader story is 1919, where there is a a vast outpouring of political protest, popular protest on the Korean Peninsula connected to the March first movement. The second pivot point is in the nineteen thirties with the outbreak of the Second Sino Japanese War and the establishment of total warfare mobilization culture on the Korean Peninsula as the empire itself is pulled into these massive conflagrations with first the Chinese and later the the Americans and and British empires.

霍莉，这段时期对朝鲜及周边地区产生了哪些长远影响？

Holly, what were the longer term implications of this period for Korea and the regions?

这是个好问题。一方面这段时间很短，若考虑日本逐渐加深的干预——1905年日本宣布朝鲜为其保护国，开始限制朝鲜政府某些行动——实际影响期更短。但我想我们已经讨论过该时期某些最持久的遗产，如努迪提到的民族主义思潮。

That's a good question. Because on one hand, it's a very short period of time, and it becomes even shorter when you start to factor in the increasing Japanese involvement. Japan declares Korea a protectorate in nineteen o five, and so this starts to then limit some of the actions of the Korean government. However, I think we've already talked about some of the longest standing legacies that do come out of this period. Nudi already mentioned nationalism.

对吧？这些民族主义的象征以及韩国人关于自己国家和历史的叙事，其中许多延续影响了韩国人后续的自我认知。我们也能看到政府制度基础的一些变化，比如政府试图干预经济以试图——

Right? Some of these symbols of nationalism and the narratives that Koreans are telling themselves about their country and their history. A lot of these carry forward into subsequent ways that Koreans view themselves. We can also see changes in some of the institutional basis of the government. So, you know, the idea that the government is trying to get involved in the economy to try

并且

and

为韩国自身利益强化工业。这种趋势延续到殖民时期。殖民政府改变了部分干预方向，但仍沿用已建立的机制来管控人口与经济。现代教育运动的萌芽也在此时期显现，特别是私立学校的扩张在殖民时期加速。同时，这些逻辑也为殖民时期的独立运动提供了思想基础——从'韩国人应自强抵御外侮'演变为'推翻帝国主义宗主'。存在着显著的连续性。

strengthen industry for Korea's own benefit. This continues into the colonial period. The colonial government, it changes the direction of some of this intervention, but it continues to build on some of these new mechanisms that the government has already established to, like, try and intervene with the population and the economy. We also see the beginnings of some of the modern education movement, especially in the growth of private schools that expand further once we get into the colonial period, as well as then some of these these logics that will inform the independence movement into the colonial period, the idea that, you know, Koreans should strengthen themselves against foreign aggression, this then gets transformed into the idea that Koreans need to strengthen themselves to overthrow their imperial master. There's quite some continuities that carry forward.

谢谢。Derek，现在可以请你回答吗？我们是否正接近朝鲜半岛南北分裂的历史节点？如果是，分裂是如何形成的？其意义何在？

Thank you. Derek, can I come back to you now? Are we approaching the time when we have a north and south divide in Korea? And if so, how did it come about, and what did it mean?

就大韩帝国的历史评价而言，南北存在鲜明分歧。在北方，这些可能被视为——我们有个皇帝试图通过明显非民主、且不具阶级意识的方式引领未来。因此北方评价认为这基本是场失败的实验。

In terms of a reflection on the empire of Korea, there there is a pretty stark division. You can imagine in the North how all of this might be viewed. Okay. We have, like, a emperor who's decided that they're going to guide the way into the future through expressively nondemocratic, but also not really informed by class, like, any awareness or concern about class. And so in the North, the evaluation is that this is broadly a failed experiment.

在南方，人们对这些理念及高宗等二十世纪初政治人物的尝试抱有更多同情，他们当时确实在艰难政治环境中寻求出路。不仅如此，南方还将这段历史纳入更宏大的叙事——关于政治公民权的起源、平等理念与民主治理结构的形成。南北对这个时期的评价存在显著差异。

In the South, I think there's a bit more sympathy for the ideas and for the attempts by not just Kojong, but by the the kind of variety of political actors at the start of the twentieth century who are trying to basically find their way out of what seems to be of what was indeed just a very difficult political set of circumstances. Not only that, but in in the South in general, this period of time is brought into a larger story about the origins of political citizenship and broader ideas of equity and democratic structures, formations of of governance. So it is a notable difference between the North and the South's evaluation of this period.

那么Nouri，首先请问，当今韩国人如何看待这段历史时期？

So, Nouri, coming to you first, how does this period in Korea now look to Koreans?

因此，韩国人在这个问题上分歧很大。学术界对此也存在分歧。我认为有些学者对这一时期的评价更为负面，他们将主权丧失归咎于君主。当然，即便在当时，对君主的批评也很多，认为他可能做得不够，可能没有做出正确的选择，可能仍过于固守旧习，因为他还在咨询萨满等类似行为。与此同时，似乎也正在进行重新评估。

So Koreans are very much divided on this. The scholar scholarship is also divided on this. I think you have some scholars who view this period more negatively, who blame the monarch for the loss of sovereignty. And, of course, even back at the time, during the time, there was a lot of criticism of the monarch that maybe he's not doing enough, maybe he's not making the right choices, maybe he is still too much caught in the old ways because he was still consulting shamans and things like that. At the same time, there also seems to be a reevaluation taking place.

一方面，当时朝鲜君主所处的处境似乎极其艰难。问题在于，他究竟能采取什么措施来真正避免朝鲜的命运？也许他能做的并不多。考虑到当时大多数或许多国家都被殖民化，也许他已经尽力了。假设朝鲜本可以以某种方式避免这种命运，就会赋予朝鲜过多的独特性，这似乎是另一种学术观点。

On the one hand, it seems to be just a very, very difficult situation to be in for the Korean monarch at the time. The question is what could he have done to really avert Korea's fate? And the question is maybe not much. Maybe he did the best that he could do considering that most countries or many countries at the time were colonized. To assume that Korea could have somehow averted that fate would, assign too much uniqueness onto Korea, and that seems to be another scholarly perspective.

因此，似乎也出现了这种更为同情的观点，将这位朝鲜君主视为近乎悲剧英雄的形象。

So there seems to be also the emergence of this kind of more sympathetic view of this Korean monarch as this almost, like, tragic hero.

是的。我想补充一点。我认为关于这一时期的历史研究的一大变化是，过去的核心问题通常是：为什么朝鲜未能保持主权？并根据其维持主权的能力来判断这是成功还是失败？

Yeah. I would just add to that. I think one of the big changes has been for a lot of the previous history about this period. The big question was, like, why did Korea not maintain its sovereignty? And is it a success or a failure based on its ability to maintain its sovereignty?

然而，近年来，人们对此时期采取了更为广泛和全面的视角，试图寻找我们一直在讨论的那些更长期的变化。比如，审视民族主义的兴起、出版业的诞生，以及更广泛的社会变革。因此，当我们以这些标准来看待大韩帝国时，确实改变了我们的看法。

However, in more recent years, people have taken a much more expansive and holistic view of this period trying to look for some of these these longer changes that we've been talking about. Right? Like, looking at the nationalism, the birth of the publishing industry, broader social changes. And so when we look at the Korean empire in these terms, it does change our perspective.

非常感谢Nouri Kim、Holly Stevens和Gary Kramer。下周，我们将介绍物理学家莉泽·迈特纳，她因在核裂变发现中的关键作用而广受认可。非常感谢大家的收听。

Thank you very much to Nouri Kim, to Holly Stevens, and Gary Kramer. Next week, the physicist Lisa Meitner, widely recognized now for her crucial role in discovering nuclear fission. Thanks very much for listening.

现在，《In Our Time》播客将延长一些时间，播放Melvin和他的嘉宾带来的几分钟额外内容。

And the In Our Time podcast gets some extra time now with a few minutes of bonus material from Melvin and his guests.

我们从你开始，德里克。你有哪些没来得及说但想表达的观点？

We'll start with you, Derek. What did you not get time to say that you would like to have said?

我认为未能充分阐述的是这个时期所特有的动荡程度——不仅是经济或社会条件的崩溃，更包括那些对人们日常生活至关重要的认知体系的瓦解。当你更换历法时，你正在改变人们与日常生活的互动方式（这正是改革之一）。当你废除科举制度并改变知识分子晋升途径时，你彻底颠覆了知识的传播与流通方式。当你推行文字改革，宣称汉字是过时落后的象征时，你挑战的是知识的结构方式乃至经典的定义。虽然我们常觉得自己生活在快速变革的时代...

I think what I didn't get out across was the degree of tumult that defined this period and that the breakdown of of not just sort of the the types of economic or social conditions, but epistemic formations that have been so important for people just to live their everyday lives. When you switch calendars, you are transforming how people are interfacing with everyday life, which was one of the reforms. When you get rid of an examination system and change how individuals, intellectuals advance their ways, advance their careers, you're you're completely upending how knowledge is disseminated and circulated. When you go ahead and change national scripts and say that, basically, Chinese characters are anachronistic and backwards, you're challenging how knowledge is structured, what a canon even means. I think often we feel like we're living in a time of change and and rapid transformation.

但在我看来，当今时代的剧变与二十世纪初人们经历的动荡相比，实在相形见绌。

But I think in many ways, what we encounter today pales in comparison to the tumult that individuals living in in the early twentieth century pales in comparison to the tumult that characterize their life.

你有什么想补充的吗？

Do you want to say anything?

对我而言，我想重新强调的是宗教的重要性及其运动的突出影响。韩国本土新兴宗教运动兴起的同时，新教基督教也大规模涌入——其传播之成功甚至超出传教士预期。这些力量在塑造政治事件、影响现代化进程及方向方面起着关键作用，因为新教基督教此时也成为韩国现代化的推动力之一。这再次印证了韩国当时被多重力量撕裂的态势。

For me, I think one of the things that I would like to reemphasize is the importance of religion and the importance and the prominence of religious movements. You have the emergence of native Korean new religious movements, but there's all also, of course, the influx of Protestant Christianity, which is seeing a tremendous amount of success even to the surprise of the missionaries themselves. And these forces, all they play a significant role in in shaping some of the political events. They shape a significant they play a significant role in shaping the direction of modernization and sources of modernization because Protestant Christianity also becomes a source of modernization in Korea at this time. So, again and and this kind of, again, adds to this idea of Korea being torn into many different directions.

本土宗教与外来宗教并存，外国政治势力与外来宗教交织——后者不仅是压迫工具，也带来积极发展。很多人好奇新教基督教为何在韩国如此成功，部分原因可追溯至这一时期：新教确实为朝鲜人提供了某些价值，且从朝鲜视角看，它并未必然与帝国主义势力挂钩。

You have native religion. You have foreign religion. You have foreign political powers, but also foreign religion as a source, not just necessarily of oppression, but also of some sort of positive development. And a lot of people wonder why Protestant Christianity was so successful in Korea, and this can be partially explained with reference to this period that partisan Christianity did offer something to the Koreans at this point, and it was not necessarily connected to an imperial power, at least from the Korean perspective.

霍莉，你有什么看法？

And what about you, Holly?

我是说，我们确实重点关注了朝鲜及其境内发生的事件，这很合理。但我想我们同样需要意识到的是，当时国际社会对朝鲜主权的敌意——即便不是敌意，也是强烈的反感和漠视——达到了何种程度。甲午战争后，日本试图宣称对辽东半岛拥有主权，该地区位于朝鲜西北部，本是中国领土，这一企图遭到了抵制。法国、德国和俄国联合干预，即所谓的三国干涉还辽，实质上是否决了日本的主张。然而在朝鲜帝国时期，我们看到日本与列强签订越来越多的协议，特别是1902年的英日同盟和1905年与美国的塔夫脱-桂太郎协定，英美两国实质上承认了日本在朝鲜的特殊利益。

I mean, we've focused a lot on Korea and issues taking place in Korea, and rightly so. But I think one thing we we really also need to be aware of is that the scale of the international, if not hostility, but antipathy or indifference to Korean sovereignty at this time. After the Sino Japanese war, Japan actually tries to stake a claim on the Liaodong Peninsula, which is a part of China just to the Northwest of Korea, and this is rebuffed. France, Germany, and Russia, they intervene, known as the triple intervention, to basically deny their claim on the behalf of Japan. But what happens during the Korean empire period, we start to see Japan making more and more agreements with other powers, in particular, the Anglo Japanese alliance of nineteen o two and the Taft Katsura treaty with The United States in nineteen o five, where Britain and The United States essentially recognize Japanese interests in Korea.

因此当日本开始更强势地干预朝鲜内政，宣布其为自己保护国并逐步剥夺朝鲜政府自治权时，朝鲜高宗政府试图向其他国家求援。他们秘密派遣使者前往海牙寻求国际支持对抗日本。但你知道，多数国家对此视若无睹。所以我认为，这也是为什么我们不该以能否成功抵御外国帝国主义来评判朝鲜帝国——因为在某种程度上，这已非朝鲜自身所能掌控。

And so when Japan starts to then more aggressively intervene in Korean politics and declare it a protectorate and start undermining some of the autonomy of the Korean government, Korea and Kotong, like, they try to appeal to other countries. They send an an a mystery to The Hague to try and drum up support against Japan. But, you know, a lot of the countries just turn a blind eye. And so this as well, I think it's it's one of the reasons why, you know, we shouldn't look or we shouldn't judge the Korean empire on its success to stave off foreign imperialism because to some extent, this was out of Korean hands.

好的，非常感谢。谢谢。

Well, thank you very much. Thank you.

好的，太感谢了。是的。

K. Thank you so much. Yeah.

是的。不。

Yeah. No.

讲得太精彩了。我的天啊。

That was great. My Oh my goodness.

你的咖啡除了在韩国的德里克那份。

Your coffee other than Derek who's in Korea.

我要喝点茶。好的，麻烦来一杯。

I'll have some tea. Yes, please.

对，请给我茶。

Yeah. Tea, please.

三杯茶。谢谢。非常感谢你，德里克。

Three teas. Thank you. Thank you very much, Derek.

是的。《我们的时代》由梅尔文·布拉格主持，西蒙·蒂洛特森制作，是BBC工作室的音频作品。

Yeah. In Our Time with Melvin Bragg is produced by Simon Tillotson, and it's a BBC Studios audio production.

新闻瞬息万变，而理解需要时间。在这个充满错误信息和持续更新的世界里，BBC广播四台的《当下》栏目为您呈现深入故事核心、超越头条的纪录片。从未被发现的真相和隐藏故事到当今最重大的议题，我们深入挖掘，揭示未被讲述的真相。那么，让我们来谈谈借贷成本以及财政大臣是否面临难题。英国的国家债务已急剧上升。

News moves fast, but understanding takes time. In a world of misinformation and constant updates, Currently from BBC Radio four presents documentaries that bring you closer to the heart of the story and go beyond the headlines. From undiscovered truths and hidden stories to the biggest issues of the day, we go further and unravel the untold. Well, let's talk about borrowing costs and whether the chancellor has a problem. The UK's national debt has risen dramatically.

但我们该有多担忧？两个戏剧性时刻揭示了世界实际运作的方式。我们为您带来亲历者的故事。这一切感觉如此不祥，这台由人类双手用金属打造的庞大机器，竟会因与一只鸟的简单相撞而损毁。但当新闻世界鲜活呈现时，您的视角也将改变。

But how worried should we be? Two dramatic moments that reveal how the world really works. We bring you the stories from those closest to them. It all felt so ominous, how this vast machine built of metal by human hands could be broken by a simple collision with a bird. But the world of news comes to life and your perspective changes.

德国政治通常很稳定，但如今已非如此。

German politics is usually stable, but that's not true anymore.

收听BBC Sounds上的《Currently》节目，不错过任何一集。

Listen to Currently on BBC Sounds and not miss an episode.