托马斯·哈代的诗歌（档案集）

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现在，为纪念他主持《我们的时代》节目二十七年的难忘岁月，我们将由梅尔文·布拉格介绍本系列中他最珍爱的剧集之一。

And now to mark the end of his twenty seven memorable years presenting In Our Time, we have Melvin Bragg to introduce the next in our series of his most cherished episodes.

主持《我们的时代》最令人振奋之处在于，有时我需要钻研一个陌生领域（比如原子核的内部运作机制），而下周可能就要探讨我深有共鸣的主题。

What's made my time presenting In Our Time so stimulating is that one week, I'd be getting to grips with something I know little about, the innermost workings of the atomic nucleus, for example, and another could be something very close to my heart.

托马斯·哈代的诗歌正是这样的主题。

Thomas Hardy's poetry is one of those.

这段录音制作于新冠疫情后我们刚恢复正常录制，所有人都能重返演播室之时。

We recorded this just as we were returning to normal after COVID and so everyone could be back in the studio.

能再次与三位熟读哈代作品且对其深有研究的嘉宾进行面对面交流，实在是令人欣喜。

It was glorious to resume face to face conversations with our three deeply read guests who cared deeply about Hardy.

大家好。

Hello.

十九世纪九十年代，托马斯·哈代停止小说创作，回归他的初恋——诗歌，此后三十八年直至生命终结，他始终致力于诗歌写作。

In the eighteen nineties, Thomas Hardy stopped writing novels and returned to his first love, poetry, and he stayed writing poems for thirty eight years, the rest of his life.

他以不同的风格和韵律，探索从自然主题如《黑暗中的鸫鸟》，到战争题材如《有角的鼓手》，再到史诗如《王朝》的各类体裁。

In different styles and meters, he explores genres from nature, the darkling thrush, to war, drummer horned, and to epics, the dynasts.

他最著名的作品包括1912至1913年间创作的诗歌，这些诗作回应了他对首任妻子艾玛逝世的悲痛——艾玛既非他的初恋也非最后的爱人，但正是这位缪斯女神让他的创作成为可能。

And among his best known are what he called his poems nineteen twelve to thirteen, responding to his grief at the death of his first wife, Emma, who was neither his first love nor his last, who was the muse who'd made his writing possible.

与我共同探讨托马斯·哈代诗歌的嘉宾有：伦敦大学皇家霍洛威学院现代文学教授蒂姆·阿姆斯特朗，赫尔大学英语系荣休教授兼利兹大学高级访问研究员简·托马斯。

With me to discuss Thomas Hardy's poetry are Tim Armstrong, professor of modern literature at Royal Holloway, University of London Jane Thomas, Emeritus Professor of English at the University of Hell and Senior Visiting Research Fellow at the University of Leeds.

以及伦敦大学学院英语与美国文学教授、诗人马克·福特。

And Mark Ford, Poet and Professor of English and American Literature, University College London.

马克·福特，关于哈代早期生活对其诗歌创作的影响，我们需要了解哪些关键信息？

Mark Ford, what do we need to know about Hardy's early life that's relevant to his poetry?

他对诗歌的热情确实在青少年时期就开始萌发。

His enthusiasm for poetry did develop while he was a teenager.

他1840年出生于海厄·博克汉普顿，这里距多尔切斯特约三英里，靠近斯廷斯福德，后来成为他笔下威塞克斯地区的梅尔斯托克。

He was born in 1840 in Hyre Bockhampton, which is about three miles from Dorchester, quite near Stinsford, becomes the Melstock of Wessex.

他父亲是教堂唱诗班成员——我认为这点很重要——他在唱诗班演奏小提琴。

His father was in the church choir, I think it's an important point, that he played the violin in the church choir.

因此哈代对音乐的兴趣是我们讨论其诗歌时至关重要的元素，他对音乐创作过程（尤其是教堂音乐）的痴迷，是从幼年时期就被深深植入的。

So Hardy's interest in music is one of the things that really is really important when we come to sort of discuss his poetry, that his fascination with the process of making music, particularly for the church, was something that was drilled into him from a very kind of early age.

他的母亲杰迈玛可能是推动他成为雄心勃勃的年轻人，继而成为极其成功作家的主要影响者。

His mother, Jemima, was probably the dominant influence in driving him to become the ambitious young person and then the very, very successful writer.

尽管她出身相当贫寒——她自己的母亲曾靠救济度日——但她非常重视教育，哈代得以进入优质学校就读。

Although she came from a pretty poor background, her own mother was actually on poor relief, but she was very concerned with education, and Hardy went to excellent schools.

是当地学校吗？

Local schools?

是的。

Yeah.

16岁之前都在本地学校就读。

Local schools up until the age of 16.

嗯，基本算是本地。

Well, fairly local.

12到16岁期间，他在多切斯特的一所学校上学。

From the age of 12 to 16, he went to one in Dorchester.

之后，他跟随一位建筑师当学徒。

And after that, he was apprenticed to a architect.

正是在做建筑学徒期间，他迷上了拉丁语和希腊语，这种热情后来发展成了对英语诗歌的热爱。

And it was while he was working as an apprentice architect that he became obsessed with Latin, Greek, and that would develop into a love of English poetry.

他会在凌晨4点起床，赶去工作前学习拉丁诗人的作品。

He would get up at 04:00 in the morning before he went to work to learn some of the Latin poets.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

没错。

That's right.

他还自学了希腊语。

And he taught himself Greek as well.

从16岁起，他就开始自学成才。

He was an autodidact from the age of 16 onwards.

12岁时他在学校学过拉丁语，但之后全靠自学。

He did study Latin at school from the age of 12, but he was an autodidact after that.

他在多切斯特工作的建筑师事务所是个相当有文化气息的地方，同事们会互相交流拉丁文翻译之类的。

And the architect's office that he worked in in Dorchester was a fairly kind of cultured place, and they would kind of swap translations of Latin and so on.

但他后来搬去了伦敦，继续担任建筑绘图员的工作。

But he moved to London to continue his work as, an architect clerk.

他在那里依然坚持写诗。

He still kept writing poetry there.

嗯，就是在那时他真正彻底迷上了诗歌。

Well, that's when he really, really got obsessed with poetry.

他谈论诗歌的方式简直像在描述一种瘾。

It's almost like an addiction, the way he talks about it.

尽管他也常去音乐厅、剧院看了大量莎士比亚戏剧，还去过国家美术馆，但阅读和创作诗歌才是他在伦敦生活的主旋律。

His concern with reading and writing poetry was the thing that dominated his life in London, though he did also go to kind of music halls and the theatre and saw lots of Shakespeare, and he went to the National Gallery.

但他告诉我们，他每晚都会在西邦公园别墅的房间里读写诗歌直到午夜之后。

But he tells us he would stay up until after midnight every night in his room in Westbourne Park Villas reading and writing poetry.

他会把这些诗作投出去，希望能扬名立万，但据他所说全都被退稿了。

And he would send this poetry out in the hope of making a name for himself but he tells us it was all rejected.

我们实际上没有收到过退稿信，所以无法证实，但他得出的结论是：诗歌杂志的编辑们根本分不清好坏诗句，当然更不会赏识他的作品。

We actually haven't got any rejection slips so we can't verify that but he came to the conclusion that the editors of poetry magazines didn't know good verse from bad and they certainly didn't didn't embrace his work.

他有首非常早期的诗作叫《她致他》。

There's one of his very earliest poems called She to Him.

这是四首诗中的一首，但我觉得对年轻人来说这首尤其震撼。

It's one of four poems, but I think this one is particularly powerful for a young man.

当你看见我被时光的罗网困住，我备受赞美的容颜渐渐消逝。

When you shall see me in the toils of time, my lauded beauties carried off from me.

我的双眼不再如盛年时星辰般闪耀。

My eyes no longer stars as in their prime.

我的名字被遗忘，换来自由与美好。

My name forgot and made fair and free.

当你心中理智压倒情感，虽不解其过程，却忆起我曾珍藏的卓越，而今凋零令你懊恼。

When in your being, heart concedes to mind and judgment, though you scarce its process know, recalls the excellent that I once enshrined, and you are irked that they have withered so.

记住我的失去，而非责备。

Remembering mine the losses, not the blame.

时光这位猎手养育猎物只为杀戮。

That sportsman time but rears his brood to kill.

知我灵魂深处，始终如一。

Knowing me in my soul, the very same.

宁愿赴死也不愿你受丝毫伤害之人。

One who would die to spare you a touch of ill.

难道你不愿念旧情，在人生奇异山坡上伸出友谊之手？

Woon you not grant to old affection's claim, the hand of friendship down in life's sundrous hill.

我觉得这太棒了。

I think that's fantastic.

我只是想了解他当时在写什么。

I just wanted an indication of what he was writing at

在他被拒绝的时候。

the time he was rejected.

他当时以这位女性的口吻写了许多十四行诗。是的。

He was writing a lot of sonnets in the voice of this woman Yes.

这个角色很可能是以他当时交往的一位名叫伊丽莎·尼科尔斯的女性为原型。

Who was probably based on a woman he was seeing at the time called Eliza Nichols.

其中有四首十四行诗，这些'希特赞美诗'深受莎士比亚和约翰·多恩风格的影响。

And there are four of these sonnets, the Sheeter Hymn sonnets, that derive a lot from kind of Shakespearean and from John Donne.

这些诗作带有一种伊丽莎白时代的色彩。

There's a kind of Elizabethan tinge to them.

它们是相当复杂的诗作，某种程度上印证了菲利普·拉金的观点——每首哈代的诗都贯穿着一条思想脊柱。

And they're rather complex poems that sort of they illustrate Philip Larkin's contention that every Hardy poem has a spinal cord of thought running through it.

这些诗作充满理性思考，同时也非常复杂且情感丰沛。

They're quite cerebral poems, but they're also quite complex and quite emotionally charged.

嗯，我认为它们情感张力十足。

Well, I think they're very emotionally charged.

我的意思是，这位女性在诗中倾诉一切都已逝去，但你不该责怪我，要记得那段我愿为你付出一切的时光。

I mean, he's he's just this woman is saying, everything's gone, but it's you mustn't blame me and remember the time when I would lay down and do anything that you wanted in your life.

这是首非凡的诗作。

It's extraordinary poem.

老实说，我很惊讶当时人们竟忽略了它，不过现在我们总算发现了，这很好。

I mean, I'm just I'm just amazed that they missed it at the time, but now we've got it here, so that's alright.

是啊。

Yeah.

维多利亚时期曾流行过十四行诗体。

And there was a vogue for sonnets in the Victorian period.

所以...我认为这些诗也反映了乔治·梅瑞狄斯的影响，特别是《现代爱情》组诗的痕迹。

So it it and and I think they reflect the influence of George Meredith as well, particularly the modern love sequence.

简·托马斯，我们稍后可能会回顾早期的诗歌，希望如此。

Jane Thomas, we may come back to earlier poems later, I hope.

他停止了诗歌创作，转而开始写小说。

He stopped the poems and he started to write novels.

这是为什么呢？

Now why was that?

因为他知道这样能赚更多钱。

Because he knew he would make more money.

写诗并不是赚钱的最佳途径。

Writing poetry was not the best way to make money.

在1970年——抱歉是1871到1878年间，他大约每年写一部小说，细想之下这相当惊人。

Between 1970 sorry, 1871 and 1878, he was writing roughly a novel a year, is phenomenal when you think about it.

但到了1880年代左右，他迷失了方向。

But around about the eighteen eighties, he lost his way.

他创作的小说《A Leo Des Sea》和《汉德·埃塞尔伯托》反响不佳。

The novels he produced, A Leo Des Sea and Hand of Ethelberto were not well received.

他还遭遇了身体崩溃，长期病重。

He also had a physical breakdown and was extremely ill for quite a long time.

1883年他搬到多尔切斯特，想着如果能沉浸于熟悉的环境和人群中，或许能为写作增添灵感。

In 1883 he moved to Dorchester thinking that if he could, you know, sort of immerse himself in the place and the people that he knew well, it might add something to his writing.

1884年他搬进马克斯盖特，同年《卡斯特桥市长》出版，开启了伟大的悲剧创作阶段，包括《林地居民》《德伯家的苔丝》《无名的裘德》和《心爱的》。

And in 1884 he moved into Maxgate and of course that was the year that the Mayor of Castorbridge was published and that initiated that great tragic phase where we get the Woodlanders, Tess of the Durbaville's, do the Obscure and the Well Beloved.

他一直声称自己力求使小说尽可能接近诗歌，但觉得现实主义的限制束缚了他。

And he'd always claimed that he'd aimed at making his novels as close to poetry as possible, but he felt hampered by the constraints of realism.

我认为如果你读过《意中人》，就能看出这种创作手法在那里体现。

And I think if you read The Well Beloved, you can see that working there.

他正在背离现实主义，转向更具诗意的风格。

He's moving against realism and towards something more poetic.

你能谈谈他的第一任妻子艾玛吗？以及最初她对他的意义？

Can you tell us about Emma, his first wife, and what she meant to him at first?

她打开了那扇门。

She opened the door.

确实是她打开了那扇门。

She opened the door indeed.

莫特已经提到过，他母亲在帮助他专注于成为作家而非建筑师方面影响很大，艾玛也是如此。

Mott's already mentioned that his mother was a great influence in helping him to concentrate on being a writer rather than an architect, and so did Emma.

她们两人都给予了他鼓励。

They both were responsible for encouraging him.

他于1870年3月7日在圣朱利叶遇见艾玛，当时他被韦茅斯的建筑事务所克里克梅派去为教堂重建绘制图纸。

He met Emma on the March 7 1870 in St Juliet, where he'd been sent by Crickmay, the architects of Weymouth, to draw up plans for the rebuilding of the church.

他完全被她迷住了。

And he was completely entranced by her.

仅仅用了四天时间。

Only took four days.

他被她户外时无拘无束的举止和精湛的骑术所倾倒。

He was entranced by her unreserved manner out of doors, her skills as a horsewoman.

他于1870年8月返回，到访期结束时，他们已视彼此为未婚夫妻。

He returned in August 1870 and by the end of his visit, they considered themselves betrothed.

当时，哈迪已有两部小说被拒，他必须在成为建筑师和成为作家之间做出选择：选择前者意味着他们能尽快结婚，而选择后者则可能使他们的婚期推迟很久。

Now, at that point, Hardy had had two rejected novels and he had to choose between being an architect, which would mean they could marry sooner rather than later, or being a writer and their courtship might be postponed for quite a long time if that was the case.

是艾玛说服他专注于写作的。

It was Emma who persuaded him to concentrate on being a writer.

事实上，在她去世多年后，哈迪曾说她把个人愿望放在一边的做法非常高尚。

And many years later, many years after her death in fact, Hardy said that she had in fact done a fine thing, to put her own desires to one side.

他们直到1874年才得以结婚，这中间隔了四年。

It was four years before they could marry, in 1874.

艾玛确实给予了他极大的鼓励。

And Emma really encouraged him.

她协助他修改编辑小说，你可以在《绝望的补救》女主角身上看到她的影响，当然《一双蓝眼睛》的女主角讲述的就是他们的浪漫求爱故事。

She helped him to revise and edit his novels and you can see her influence in The Heroine of Desperate Remedies, of course in The Heroine of A Pair of Blue Wives, tells the story of their romantic courtship.

我认为哈迪很清楚，如果当时没有M的鼓励，我们将失去英语文学史上最伟大的作家之一。

I think Hardy was very clear that if M hadn't encouraged him at that point, we would have lost one of the greatest writers in the English language.

非常感谢。

Thank you very much.

蒂姆·蒂姆·阿姆斯特朗，就本节目而言，我们将更聚焦于诗歌。

Tim Tim Armstrong, for the purposes of this programme, we're concentrating much more on poetry.

令人惊讶的是，在他小说取得巨大成功之后——尤其是《德伯家的苔丝》——由于《无名的裘德》遭到冷遇，他竟放弃了小说创作。

Extraordinary, after the great success he had with his novels, particularly with Thetto of the Durbivilles, he quit novels and the the strange reception for Jude the Obscure.

随后三十八年里，他回归诗歌创作，写了九百多首诗。

And for the next thirty eight years, went back to and wrote poetry, wrote over 900 poems.

你能谈谈这个转变吗？

Can you discuss that switch?

最初，他将此描述为从公共领域转向更个人化的创作，起因是韦克菲尔德主教将《无名的裘德》投入火中焚烧，甚至他的一些朋友也发表了大量负面评论。

Initially, he portrayed it as a flight from the public sphere into something much more personal after the Bishop of Wakefield threw Jude the Obscure into the fire, and there was a great deal of negative commentary even from some of his friends.

所以你是说，《无名的裘德》的负面反响是导致他停止小说创作的主要原因之一？

So you're saying that the the the reception of Jude the Obscure was one of the big things that made him stop writing novels?

是的。

Yes.

不过事实上，他早有计划出版一部诗集，并打算整理《列王》这部1890年左右创作的宏大史诗。

Though, in fact, he had been planning to publish a volume of poetry for some time and had also planned to put together The Dyneis, this huge verse epic from around 1890.

但他最初颇为谨慎，因此出版了带有系列古怪插画的《威塞克斯诗集》，这些作品确实极具个人色彩。

But he was, at first, tentative, so he published Wessex poems with a series of quirky drawings, which really are quite personal.

他为诗集写了篇充满辩护意味的序言，收录了大量早期爱情诗作——约三分之一的诗写于1860年代，其余则是较近期的作品。

He wrote a very defensive preface to it, and he included a lot of those early love lyrics, about a third of the poems were written in the eighteen sixties, as well as some more recent poems.

但此后，他的诗人事业开始形成势头。

But after that, his career as a poet begins to take on a a momentum.

因此他很快又出版了另一部诗集。

So he publishes another volume quite quickly.

三年后，《列王》问世。

Three years later, he publishes The Dyanace.

他开始为公众场合创作诗歌，比如维多利亚女王逝世时的悼诗。

He begins to write poems for public occasions like the death of queen Victoria.

到1911年撰写总序时，他表示要'在戏剧诗、叙事诗以及抒情诗中完整展现社会与公共生活中大多数关键情境，以及一系列圆满的情感体验'。

And by the time we get to the general preface that he wrote in 1911, he said that he wants to express, quote, most of the cardinal situations that occur in social and public life in his dramatic and narrative poems and in lyric a round of emotional experiences of some completeness.

首部《诗集全集》出版于1919年，此时他已功成名就。

The first collected poems was published in 1919, and by then he's established.

他有一段非凡的晚年职业生涯。

And he had an extraordinary late career.

在他生命的最后十四年直至87岁去世期间，他出版了约650首诗作和五卷诗集。

He published in in the last fourteen years of his life up to his death at at 87, around 650 poems and and five volumes.

就那种晚年的创作力而言，确实很难找到能与之比肩的人。

And it's hard to think of a comparator really in terms of that late productivity.

据我们所知，他是个极易坠入爱河的人。

He was he was a man we're told that he fell in love very easily.

他开始产生兴趣

He began to become interested

在1890年前后，他对妻子以外的女性产生了兴趣，并与多名女性有过暧昧关系，其中包括弗洛伦斯·亨内克等人，这些人后来成为了他终生的朋友。

in women other than his wife in in the period around 1890 and had a number of liaisons with women in that period, and that included people like Florence Henecker, who remained a friend for the rest of his life.

他还与弗洛伦斯·杜格代尔在1905年左右开始交往，此人后来成为了哈代的第二任妻子。

He also began to have a relationship with Florence Dugdale around nineteen o five, the person who became the second missus Hardy.

这正是他与艾玛之间紧张关系的部分原因，艾玛显然在某种程度上察觉到了这些事。

That was part of the tension between him and Emma, who was clearly aware of what was happening to some extent.

我想我们可以回到马克的话题上。

I think we can move back to Mark.

或许我们可以讨论一首名为《中性色调》的诗，看看它的创作背景或含义。

Maybe we could discuss a poem called Neutral Tones and see where that came or what it meant.

是的。

Yeah.

哈代在1860年代创作了大量诗歌，那时他还是个住在伦敦的年轻人。

Hardy wrote a lot of poems in the eighteen sixties when he was living in hard in London as a young man.

在他这一时期作品中，真正脱颖而出的诗作是《中性色调》，这首诗似乎是在纪念一段感情的终结，对象可能是伊丽莎·尼科尔斯——一位住在西波恩村附近的女仆。

And the the one poem of his that really stands out from this period, is called Neutral Tones, and it seems to be the commemoration of the end of a relationship, possibly with Eliza Nichols, who was a lady's maid who lived quite close to him in Westbourne Park Village.

她住在奥赛特露台。

She lived in Orsset Terrace.

这首诗极度阴郁绝望，令人震惊的是，一个年仅27岁的人竟能写出如此彻底抛弃维多利亚时代主流信仰体系的作品。

And this poem is a terrifically bleak and despairing one, and it's astonishing to think of somebody who's only sort of 27 writing a poem that has so jettisoned all the major belief systems that were so present in the Victorian age.

它实际上采用了《悼念集》相同的格律，却完全摒弃了对上帝的信仰。

It actually uses the same metrical scheme as In Memoriam, but it has none of that belief in God.

我认为哈代在1860年代中期伦敦期间丧失信仰的经历，对于理解他诗歌中那种真正现代、迥异于其他维多利亚诗人的怀疑主义至关重要。

I think Hardy's loss of belief during his period in London in the mid eighteen sixties is really crucial to understanding how his poetry expressed a skepticism which was really modern and different from that to be found in any other Victorian poet.

这或许也是他的作品不被接受的原因之一。

And that may be one reason why his work wasn't accepted.

但诗中描绘的是一对恋人在池塘边的白蜡树下分手，白蜡树的落叶灰暗，太阳被描述为‘上帝的责难’。

But this poem describes two lovers who are breaking up beside an ash tree, which is near a pond, and the leaves from the ash tree have fallen and are gray, and the sun is described as chiddun of god.

他们满脑子只想着对彼此感到彻底厌倦。

And all they can think about is how they are completely bored of each other.

毫无情感共鸣可言。

There's absolutely no reciprocity.

他将他们比作远古时代的谜题。

There are they he compares them to riddles of long ago.

没有神秘，没有魔力。

There's no mystery, no magic.

奇怪的是，哈代将诗歌与浪漫如此紧密关联，对他而言，成为诗人某种程度上就意味着参与浪漫。

And what is odd is that Hardy associated poetry so much with romance, that for him, to be a poet was to be involved in romance in some ways.

然而这些早期诗作，尤其是《中性色调》，表达了对浪漫本身彻底的怀疑。

Yet these early poems, particularly neutral tones, express an utter skepticism towards romance itself.

他从这次分手经历中学到的只是爱情总与错误相伴，事情总是会出问题。

And all he learns from this experience of breaking up is that love rings with wrong, that things are always about to go wrong.

我想这就是进入哈代世界的关键启蒙——事情不会如你所愿。

And that's the kind of crucial initiation, I suppose, into the world of the Hardian, that things don't work out as you hoped they would.

在他身上有种感觉，浪漫总是与失去和死亡相连。

There's a sense that romance in in him is is connected with loss and death.

确实如此。

It is.

那是

That that's

显然死亡能催生伟大的爱情。

obviously Death prompts great love.

是的。

Yes.

有些人甚至认为哈代近乎恋尸癖，只有在女性死后才能去爱她们。

I mean, some some go as far as to think of Hardy as almost like a necrophiliac, someone who who was only able to kind of love women after they had died.

而且可以肯定，他写给女性的诗几乎都是在她们去世后创作的。

And, certainly, the poems that he wrote about women nearly all came after those women had died.

不知何故，她们在他的记忆中重新浮现，带着所有的活力、生动与可能性，他从这种失落、绝望和哀悼中重塑了她们的形象。

And that was somehow they were they resurfaced in his memory in all their vivacity and liveliness and potential, and he recreated them out of this sense of loss and despair and grieving.

简，你对此有何反应？

Jane, how do you react that?

如何

How does the

欲望与失去的伟大诗人，还有什么比逝去的爱人更令人渴望的对象呢？

great poet of desire and loss, and what greater object of desire than a dead beloved?

艾玛的情况尤其如此。

And this is particularly the case with Emma.

我不知道你是否想让我稍微谈谈这个。

I don't know whether you want me to talk a little bit about that.

那些诗歌的背景。

The context of those poems.

艾玛和哈代最幸福的时光是他们婚后最初八年（1870至1878年），之后他们搬去伦敦，正如哈代所说，那是他们麻烦的开始。

Emma and Hardy's happiest time was in the first eight years of their married life, 1870 to 1878, at which point they moved to London and as Hardy says, that's when their troubles began.

因为此时，我认为艾玛觉得她已失去他。

Because at this point, I think Emma felt she'd lost him.

她将他输给了名声，输给了那些渴望他参加文学沙龙的上流社会女性，她感到被彻底遗忘。

She'd lost him to fame, she'd lost him to the famous She'd lost him to the society women keen who for him to attend their literary salons, and she felt very left behind.

在1880年哈代生病后（我前面提过），他们搬到了马克斯盖特。

After Hardy's illness, which I've mentioned in 1880, they moved to Maxgate.

而艾玛变得，我

And Emma became, I

认为马克斯盖特是那栋

think Maxgate is the house that

哈代设计的房子。

The house Hardy designed.

设计。

Designed.

他的父亲和兄弟建造了

And his father and brother built

建造。

Built.

为他。

For him.

是的。

Yeah.

艾玛变得越来越孤独、孤立，因此变得有点古怪。

Emma became increasingly lonely, isolated, and consequently a little bit eccentric.

蒂姆已经提到哈迪对其他女人的迷恋，他并没有真正保密，还写了关于她们的诗。

Tim's already mentioned Hardy's infatuation with other women, which he didn't really keep very secret, wrote poems about them.

所以哈迪对他感到相当尴尬，而且我认为可以说他对她也相当残忍，比如在他获得功绩勋章时禁止她出席。

So Hardy was quite embarrassed by him, and I think it's clear to say he was rather cruel to her as well, like he debarred her when she when he received his order of merit.

最终，她搬进了哈迪应她要求扩建的两个小阁楼房间。

And eventually, she moved up into two small attic rooms that Hardy had enlarged at her request.

哈迪让弗洛伦斯·达格代尔搬了进来。

Hardy moved in Florence Dugdale.

艾玛向弗洛伦斯倾诉

Emma confided to Florence

比他年轻许多岁。

years younger than him.

是的。

Yes.

表面上，相当巧妙地，如果你愿意这么说的话，作为艾玛的同伴。

Ostensibly, quite cleverly, if you like, as Emma's companion.

艾玛向弗洛伦斯透露，她觉得托马斯很像克里平——当时克里平正因为谋杀妻子而受审。

Emma confided to Florence that she thought Thomas was resembling Crippin, who'd been on trial at that point for the murder of his wife.

他们关系非常疏远，几乎不

They were very estranged and hardly didn't

但她相当复杂。

But she was quite complicated.

她父亲曾住过精神病院。

She her father had been in an asylum.

我们过去基本上会接

We used to basically pick up

我...我认为很多都是猜测。

I I think a lot of that is speculation.

我认为是

I think it was

嗯，他确实是个酒鬼。

Well, he was certainly an alcoholic.

这不也是猜测吗？

Is that not speculation?

嗯，家族里确实有酗酒史。

Well, there was alcoholism in the family.

是啊。

Yeah.

是的。

Yes.

恕我直言，我认为许多关于《爱玛》的评论文章都是由那些明显偏向哈迪立场的男性评论家所写。

Excuse me for saying this, but I think a lot of the stories Emma of Emma has been written by, you know, male critics who very much take Hardy's side.

你完全不需要为此道歉。

You don't need any excuses for that.

我确信。

I'm sure.

但作家和学者可能是非常自私的人，我认为他们的妻子和伴侣常常因此感到被排除在他们的生活之外。

But writers and academics can be very selfish people and I think their wives and their companions can often feel left out of their lives as a result.

这段婚姻的建立有诸多原因，但它确实成立了。

So there are all sorts of reasons why this marriage founded, but it certainly did.

然而，爱玛的心脏衰竭日益严重并最终夺去她的生命，哈迪似乎并未察觉，因为他们过着分居的生活。

However, Emma became increasingly ill of the heart failure that eventually killed her, Hardy doesn't seem to have noticed this because they led these separate lives.

1912年11月27日，爱玛的女仆多莉·盖尔惊慌失措地跑下楼找哈迪，非常担心她的女主人。

On the 11/27/1912, Emma's maid, Dolly Gale, came down to Hardy in a state of distress, very concerned about her mistress.

哈迪却让她先整理好衣领，然后才不紧不慢地上阁楼，发现爱玛确实已濒临死亡。

Hardy apparently told her to straighten her collar before making his way, in his own time, up to Emmer's attic where he found her indeed dying.

她最终因心力衰竭在他怀中去世，这给哈迪带来巨大冲击，促使他迸发出充满失落、悲痛、悔恨与愧疚的绝美诗篇。

And she died in his arms of heart failure and the shock was so great to Hardy that it resulted in this magnificent outpouring of loss and grief, regret and guilt.

甚至在她的花圈上，他都写着'献给她孤独的丈夫，带着旧日的深情'。

I mean even on her wreath, he wrote For Her Lonely Husband with the Old Affection.

他谈到那种失去如何让古老的头脑发出声音。

And he talks about how he said a loss like that made the old brain vocal.

在她去世后的文件中，他发现了两段重要的简短文字。

And in her papers, after she died, he found two significant little bits of writing.

一篇名为《我对丈夫的看法》，他读完后立即烧毁了。

One was called What I Think of My Husband, which he read and promptly burnt.

另一篇是《一些回忆》，讲述了他们早期的

And the other was Some Recollections, which tells the story of their early

烧掉了我对丈夫的看法。

burn what I thought of my husband.

他为什么这么做？

Why did he?

是的。

Yes.

我们无从知晓，因为没有任何内容留存下来。

Well, we don't know because none of it survived.

但你可以想象，她写下的其实是对自己被抛弃、被拒绝的感受的宣泄，是对哈迪残酷行为的控诉。

But you can imagine, can't you, that that he that she was writing really an outpouring of her own sense of abandonment, of rejection, of Hardy's cruelty.

但我认为这些因素叠加，再加上他生前从未去过圣朱利叶特，却在后来与兄长亨利一同前往朝圣的旅程，

But I think those combined, plus the pilgrimage that he made to St Juliet that he'd never made in her lifetime, but he went with Henry, his older brother, on a pilgrimage.

所有这些激发了他对他们早期恋情的想象性重构。

And all of this stimulates that that imaginative recreation of their early romance.

而这些就是那些诗篇。

And those those are poems.

我们能请教你吗，Tim？

Can we turn to you, Tim?

你能解析那些诗歌吗，1912年的诗集，那几年里你写了二十多首关于Emma的诗，我认为其中一些是他们语言中最受喜爱的诗作。

Can you unpick those poems, the collection 1912, the the few years where you about more than a score of poems around Emma, which very for some, I think, some of the best loved poems in their language.

是的。

Yes.

哈代将传统挽歌转化为一个序列，真实地经历了悲伤与反应的多个阶段，起初带着某种敌意与残酷，最终将场景从多切斯特转移到康沃尔，在那里他重塑了Emma的形象。

Hardy takes the traditional elegy and turns it into a sequence which really goes through many different stages of grief and reaction, beginning with some hostility in a way and cruelness, and eventually moves the scene from Dorchester to Cornwall, where he refines Emma.

例如，如果你看第二首诗《你最后的驾驶》，它以这样的句子结尾：'你已超越爱、赞美、冷漠与责备'。

If you look, for example, at the second poem, your last drive, it ends with the line, you are past love, praise, indifference, blame.

而冷漠，如果这是中间状态，还有一种状态是恨，这种情绪在诗篇末尾徘徊。

And indifference, if that's the middle term, there's a kind of another term, hate, which is sort of lingering at the end of the poem.

因此他认识到自己在这段关系中的过错，但尽管如此，正如简所说，他仍试图重新找到她。

So he he recognizes his own culpability their relationship, but he nevertheless, as Jane says, seeks to re find her.

其中的关键诗篇是《旅程之后》，这是21首序列中的第十三首，他终于来到康沃尔，在那里再次遇见了年轻的Emma。

And the key poem there is After a Journey, which is the thirteenth poem in the sequence of of the 21, where he finally does move to Cornwall, where he finds the young Emma again.

他说：'穿越岁月，穿越死寂的场景，我追寻着你'。

He says, through the years, through the dead scenes, I have tracked you.

'你对我们共同的过去有何发现，当我穿越黑暗的空间，那里曾缺失你的存在？'

What have you found to say of our past, scanned across the dark space wherein I have lacked you?

那是相当

And that's a rather

实际上她是个幽灵。

She's in effect a ghost, though.

她是。

She is.

事实上，在修改这首诗时，他反而将她推得更远。

In fact, in revising the poem, he he pushed her even further away.

所以在诗的早期版本中，他在开头写道：我也来此，采访一个幽灵。

So in the early printings of the poem, he says at the beginning, here too, I come to interview a ghost.

后来他将其改为最终版本：我也来此，凝视一个无声的幽灵。

And then he changes it to the final version, here too, I come to view a voiceless ghost.

因此他将诗歌从与她对话——这种交流的概念，转变为凝视她，为她寻找一个意象。

So he shifts the poem from interviewing her, talking the idea of interchange, to looking at her, finding an image for her.

你如何看待这一系列伟大的诗作？

What do you make of this great sequence of poems?

我的意思是，正如我们被明确告知的那样，他确实对她非常非常不好。

I mean, he's treated her, as we've been told in no uncertain terms, very, very badly indeed.

他雇佣了一位年轻女子，名义上是她的秘书。

He's taken on a young woman who is supposed to be her secretary.

他四处与社会名媛调情，却引发出这些以积极悔恨为主的诗篇。

He's flirting with society ladies all over the place, and and he bring this great outpouring of largely positive regret.

你如何解释这些诗？

How how do you count for them?

哈代总是说，他有种能力能将情感深藏于心，然后重新埋葬。

Hardy always said that he had a faculty for bearing emotion inside him and then reinterring it.

这正是他所做的。

And that's really what he does.

他还对一种观念非常着迷：你可以回到早期经历中，重新发现并看清其中的真相。

And he's also very interested in the idea that you can come back to your early experience and refind it and see the truth of it.

因此他逐渐在某种程度上，透过这一系列事件，看清了自己生命的意义、早年恋情的内涵，以及此后发生一切事物的真谛。

So he gradually comes to see across the sequence, in a sense, the meaning of his life, the meaning of his early romance, the meaning that everything of everything that's happened since.

他变得痴迷于重现艾玛形象的想法，以及他们曾有过浪漫故事的那片风景。

And he becomes obsessed with that idea of recovering the image of Emma and the landscape in which they had their romance.

非常感谢。

Thank you very much.

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马克，这些诗歌正如之前所说，将我们带入康沃尔的程度不亚于多塞特。

Mark, these, poems take us into Cornwall as as has been said as much as Dorset.

我们能谈谈这里风景的作用吗？

Can we just talk about the role of landscape here?

你能告诉我们一些与康沃尔的关联吗？

Can you tell us a bit about the Cornish connection?

是的。

Yes.

正如简所指出的，他于1870年踏上了前往康沃尔的旅程，对他而言这宛如一次通往神话王国的朝圣，正如他后来描绘的那样——前往利奥尼斯，而她实际就住在廷塔杰尔附近。

He made this journey, as Jane has pointed out, to Cornwall in 1870, and it was for him like a journey to a mythical kingdom, the way he represents it after, to Leoness, and she actually lived quite near Tintagel.

因此，她作为伊索尔德而他是崔斯坦这一事实，成为他在重塑她形象时所运用的神话元素之一。

So the fact that that she was Isolde and he was Tristan was one of the sort of myths with which he plays when he reconfigures her.

这场前往康沃尔的神话之旅让他逃离了家庭束缚，遇见了那位难以捉摸的女子——她养了匹名叫范妮的小马。

And this mythical journey to Cornwall was one in which he escaped his family and he found this very unpredictable woman who had this pony called Fanny.

她常骑着这匹小马沿岸往返，这彻底打破了他谨小慎微的性情，他爱上了永远猜不透她下一步行动的感觉。

She And used to ride up and down the shore on this pony, and it took him out of his entire kind of cautiousness, and he fell in love with the fact that he didn't know what she was going to do next.

这一切都投射在康沃尔的地貌上：变幻莫测的旷野天气，当他走近比尼悬崖时，那片游移的西海蓝宝石般的光芒。

And that is all kind of mapped onto the Cornish landscape and the unpredictable Cornish weather of the open, the sapphire of that wandering Western Sea as he opens Beany Cliff.

因此在康沃尔景致中，艾玛被塑造成'场所守护灵'（用拉丁短语来说），即这片土地的灵魂化身。

And so the Cornish landscape is one in which Emma is figured as the genius loci, to use the kind of Latin phrase, the idea that she is the spirit of the place.

实际上她并不怎么喜欢康沃尔。

She actually didn't like Cornwall very much.

她来自德文郡，仅在康沃尔生活了七年，某些回忆中对康沃尔人颇为刻薄，普利茅斯始终是她最钟爱的城市，她坚信自己属于德文郡人。

She was from Devon, and she spent only seven years in Cornwall, and she was rather harsh in some recollections about the Cornish people, and Plymouth was always her favorite city, and she belonged believed in that she was a Devonian.

但哈代在想象中塑造了这个画面——她骑着马立于康沃尔海岸，这已成为英国诗歌中最具冲击力的意象之一。

But Hardy, in his imagination, has this this this image of her on her horse on the Cornish coast, and that has become one of the most powerful images in in English poetry, I think.

对他而言，这化身象征着自由、激情、狂喜与浪漫，所有他生命中曾缺失的元素。

And it incarnates for him freedom, excitement, exhilaration, romance, all the things which had previously been lacking in his life.

他确实怀着极大的胸襟承认：是她唤醒了他内心的某种特质，使他能够写出更出色的作品。

He does have he does have the generosity to say that she unlocked something in him, which enabled him to write a lot better.

噢，确实如此。

Oh, yes.

他在描绘她时表现得极为慷慨，还包括那21首1912至1913年的诗作。

He he was very, very generous in his depictions of her, as well as those 21 poems in poems nineteen twelve thirteen.

还有超过100首关于艾玛的其他诗篇。

There are over a 100 other poems about Emma.

我的意思是，他简直停不下为艾玛写诗的笔，这些诗都是献给她的颂歌。

I mean, he literally could not stop writing poems about Emma, and they are tributes.

最令人痛心的是，这些诗在她生前都未曾发表。

So the the terrible thing is that none of these poems were published before she died.

生前只发表过一首名为《小调》的诗，那是献给她的挽歌。

Only published one poem called Ditty, which is a tribute to her before she died.

她去世后，情感的闸门轰然打开。他以惊人的记忆力重现四十年前的往事——正如蒂姆引用他自传中所说：'能挖掘出如初遇般鲜活的情感'。

After she died, the the floodgates opened, and he recreates with this astonishing ability to remember events from forty years before, as Tim Tim quoted that a bit from his autobiography about, being able to disinter emotion as fresh as one first experienced.

这些诗作最震撼之处（不仅是1912-1913年的诗，还包括其他献给艾玛的诗），在于他能将微小往事重现——比如那晚她没给温室加热导致植物全部冻死，这成了某首诗的主题。

And what is so startling about these poems, not just the nineteen twelve thirteen, but the other Emma poems, is how he can recreate tiny incidents like the fact that she left the greenhouse unwarmed one night and all the plants died, and that becomes the donne of a poem.

或是他看见她站在采石场的绿板岩间，这又成了另一首诗的主题。

Or once he sees her standing in a quarry with green slates, and that becomes the donne for a poem.

于是他与她共度的那神奇一周里所有琐碎小事，都被转化成了...

So these little incidents from that that magical week that he spent with her are all transformed into this The

神奇的初遇周。

magical first week.

是啊。

Yeah.

那个神奇的3月——其实只有3月11日前后五天而已。

The magical March to March 11 or just five days, really.

于是他只能懊悔，生前未能对她倾诉的那些话语，最终都化作了她死后写就的诗篇。

And then he's left regretting that he never was able to say to her in life the things that he was able to say to her in these poems which he wrote after she died.

简，你愿意接手这个话题吗？

Would you like to take that up, Jane?

我认为我们需要大胆尝试将诗歌与传记分离，因为这样做时，会发现诗歌如何慷慨地拓展了意义的有限多元性——即使不了解生平，这些诗作也能与我们当下对话。

I think we have to make a big leap of faith and try and detach the poems from the biography because when we do that, we see how the poems can really generously open up that limited plurality of meaning which means that they can speak to us now without knowing the biography.

我们无从得知其中有多少真实性。

We don't know how much of that is true.

我们正试图通过艺术重构生活，而众所周知艺术本就是虚构的产物。

We're looking at the art to recreate the life and art as we know is fiction, it's fabrication.

迪迪，你刚才提到那首诗里叙述者说'她仿佛无处不在'。

You mentioned, I think, Didi, in that poem the narrator says Here is she seems written everywhere to me.

他其实已在探讨场所精神——艾玛的形象如同刺绣样本般被编织进风景里。

So he's already talking about the spirit of place, that this idea of Emma is embroidered on the landscape a bit like a sampler.

你可以将这首诗视为天才地景创造的起点，那些心灵景观的雏形。

You could see that poem as the beginning of this creation of the genius, Loci, the creation of the landscapes of the mind.

《那首诗》与此有关联吗？

Does the poem The have any bearing on this?

《声音》这首诗与之有深刻关联

The poem The Voice has a lot of bearing on

能为我们讲讲这首诗吗？

this Could you tell us something about it?

好的。

Yes.

我认为，这绝对是英语语言中最伟大的挽歌之一。

It's it's, I think, one of the greatest elegies, again, in the English language.

你愿意读一下吗？

Would you read

一小段？

a little bit?

我曾经能倒背如流。

I used to know it by heart.

我试试看。

I'll try.

我很高兴你让我读这首诗，因为有趣的是叙述者被完全赋予了性别特征。

And I'm glad you asked me to read it because what's interesting about that is the narrator is totally engendered.

一旦你为叙述者赋予性别，那个声音就会成为所有失去至亲之人的深切表达。

And once you engender the narrator, that voice then becomes a poignant expression for anybody who has ever lost anybody dear to them.

我认为这是我们这个时代的伟大诗篇，属于当下这个时代。

It's a great poem for our time I think, our times now.

可能是母亲，可能是姐妹，可能是爱人，可能是任何人。

It could be a mother, could be a sister, could be a lover, it could be anybody.

深深思念的女人啊，你是如何呼唤我，呼唤我，说现在的你已不再是从前那个对我而言苍老的你，而是如初遇时我们美好时光里的模样。

Woman much missed, how you called to me, called to me, saying that now you were not as you were when you were changed from the one who was old to me, but as at first when our day was fair.

我听到的真的是你吗？

Can it be you that I hear?

让我看看你吧，就像当年我靠近那座你曾等候我的小镇时，你站立的样子。

Let me see you then, standing as when I drew near to the town where you would wait for me.

是的，正如我那时认识你，甚至记得那件最初的蓝色长裙。

Yes, as I knew you then, even to the original air blue gown.

抑或只是那无心的风，穿过潮湿的草地向我吹来？

Or is it only the wind in its wistlessness coming across the wet mead to me here?

你永远消逝于无声之中，再也听不见，无论远近。

You being ever dissolved to one whistlessness, heard no more again, far or near.

于是我踉跄前行，落叶纷飞四周，风从诺伍德的荆棘间渗来，伴着女人的呼唤声。

Thus I, faltering forward, leaves around me falling, wind oozing thin through the thorn from Norwood and the woman calling.

你看，我不摆脱这个就读不下去

You see, I can't read that without getting rid

你是凭记忆写的。

you write it by heart.

你能感受到最后一节的顿挫。

You get that catch in that last stanza.

我们必须思考哈代创作这些诗的艺术手法。

And we and we have to think about the artistry of how Hardy writes these poems.

他是位诗人。

He is a poet.

他说诗歌是情感被赋予韵律。

He says poetry is emotion put into measure.

情感必须源于天性，而韵律可通过艺术习得。

The emotion must come by nature, but the measure can be acquired by art.

当你看到这首诗从优美的扬抑抑格转换——知道吗，强-弱-弱贯穿始终——它引诱着你，最后却突然断裂：'于是我踉跄前行'。

And when you see that poem moving from those lovely lyrical dactylics, you know, strong weak weak all the way through, it lures you in and at the end you get that break, thus I gap faltering forward.

这是一首关于悲伤传递的绝妙诗篇，讲述了人们如何在悲痛后继续前行，如何在悲伤中蹒跚前进。

And it's a wonderful poem about the onpass of grief, about how one moves forward after grief, one falters forward after grief.

你确实能感受到诗中叙述者的那种心境——暂且不提哈代——诗中的叙述者困在试图追忆、试图看见已逝之人的状态中，却深知永远无法实现。

And you do get that sense of the narrator of the poem, let's leave Hardy out of it, The narrator of the poem stuck in that trying to recapture, trying to see the person who's been lost but knowing that they never will.

我们听到的是谁的声音？

Whose voice is it we hear?

是那位女子的声音吗？

Is it the woman's voice?

还是为我们朗诵这首诗的叙述者的声音？

Is it the narrator's voice who's actually narrating the poem for us?

或者仅仅是风声？

Or is it just the wind?

这就是那个绝妙的、棘手的风鸣竖琴意象——风从诺伍德稀疏的荆棘丛中渗出的画面。

That's that wonderful thorny Aeolian harp image of the wind oozing thin through the thorn from Norwood.

实际上我认为他这个灵感来自萨福，那种断裂的语言概念，那种将语言扭转为沟通工具的努力，使他能够跨越世纪与人们交流他所描述的失落感。

It's it's And I think he gets that from Sappho actually, that idea of the broken tongue, that wrestling of language into communication so that you can communicate with people across the centuries about that sense of loss that he's describing there.