#238 – 从逆境到雄心：与Candor的Niya Dragova对话

大家好，最近怎么样？我是indiehackers.com的Cortland，你们正在收听的是独立黑客播客。现在有越来越多的人在线上创造酷炫的东西，并在此过程中赚取可观的收入。在这个节目中，我会与这些独立黑客坐下来，探讨他们的想法、机遇以及他们正在利用的策略，这样我们其他人也能效仿。今天和我一起的是Candor的创始人Nia Dragova。

What's up everybody? This is Cortland from indiehackers.com, and you're listening to the indie hackers podcast. More people than ever are building cool stuff online and making a lot of money in the process. And on this show, I sit down with these indie hackers to discuss the ideas, the opportunities, and the strategies they're taking advantage of so the rest of us can do the same. I'm here with Nia Dragova, the founder of Candor.

Nia，最近怎么样？

Nia, how's going?

嘿，挺好的。非常高兴能来这里。非常感谢你的邀请。是的。

Hey. It's going well. Very nice to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. Yeah.

我是这个节目的长期粉丝。

I'm a long time fan.

是啊，我也是。我想是我的朋友Julian大概在十或十一个月前介绍我们认识的，就是今年早些时候。当时我们聊了你的公司和社区建设。

Yeah. And vice versa. Think my buddy Julian introduced us maybe, like, ten or eleven months ago, earlier this year. Yeah. And we were talking about your company and building community.

我不知道那次通话我帮了多少忙。提出了很多好建议。非常棒。

I don't know how helpful I was during that call. Brought up Very. Good tips. Very. Good.

真的很高兴能邀请你上播客。我们不如告诉听众Candor是什么吧？因为自从我们差不多一年前聊过之后，它已经有些变化了。

It's cool to actually have you on the podcast. Why don't we tell listeners like what Candor is? Because it's kinda changed since I talked to you almost a year ago.

在Candor，我们帮助上市科技公司的员工管理他们的股权。我们提供的本质上是信息、建议和资源，帮助大家真正理解自己所有的选择。很少有人意识到，我们对待股权的方式自七八十年代以来并没有太大改变。但现在有多少人通过股权获得报酬？这个变化可大了。

So at Candor, we help tech employees at public companies manage their equity. And what we do is essentially give you information, advice and resources to really understand what all of your options are. Very few people realize that how we treat equity hasn't really changed much since the 80s and the 70s. But how many people we pay in equity? Well, that's really changed.

现在几乎每个人都能获得股权。所以我们在这里就是要缩小这个差距，让这些工具对所有人开放，而不仅仅是少数人。历史上，这些工具主要是高管才能使用，但希望未来每个人都能用上。

Almost everybody gets it now. So we're here to sort of close the gap and make those tools available to everyone and not just to kind of the select few. Historically, that's been executives, but hopefully in the future, it'll be everyone.

是啊，是啊，这真的很酷，因为你们做了很多事情。我的意思是，他们主要做的事情基本上是我最喜欢的业务——帮助人们赚更多钱。帮助员工从他们的股权中获得更多收益。

Yeah. Yeah. It's super cool because you guys do a lot of stuff. I mean, like, their main thing is basically my favorite business, help people make more money. Help employees make more from their equity.

说实话，谁不想多赚点钱呢？对吧。但如果你访问你们的网站candor.co（应该是cand0r.co），进入资源页面，会发现还有这么多其他内容。我们现在主要聊你们的通讯简报，这个稍后会深入讨论。我超爱你们的简报。

Like, who doesn't wanna make more money? Yeah. But then if you go to your website, so it's candor.co,cand0r.co, and you go into resources, you have all these other things. So we are just talking about your newsletter, which we'll get into. I love your newsletter.

我觉得这是科技领域我最喜欢的简报。你们还有薪资谈判指南、offer评估服务，各种实用工具。比如你可以上去查询：'我申请了Facebook的职位，他们给的这份offer有竞争力吗？其他人通常能拿到什么待遇？'

I think it's my favorite newsletter in tech. Then you've got a salary negotiation guide. You have offer reviews. You have all sorts of different things. You can go there and literally say like, oh, I applied for a job at Facebook.

我自己用过这些服务，其他人也用过，真的超级实用。

Is this a competitive offer that they gave me? What kind of other offers are people giving me, etcetera? So I've used this. Others have used it. It's super useful.

但你们的核心业务是帮助员工通过限制性股票(RSUs)获得更多收益。

But your main thing is helping employees make more money from their RSUs.

没错。我认为科技行业传统从业者和刚获得入场券的新人之间存在巨大鸿沟。Candor的使命就是让信息民主化——如果你不清楚手中股权的价值、不懂如何谈判、甚至不知道该怎么处理这些资产，特别是当你可能是家族中第一个进入科技行业、第一个拥有大学学历的人时，缺乏这些信息会让你落后整整二十步。

Yeah. I think there there's such a big juxtaposition between people who traditionally have been part of tech and people who just now are getting the door open to be part of tech. And candor really exists to democratize information to everyone. If you don't know how much your equity is worth or how to negotiate it or what to even do with it, because you might be the first person in your whole family to ever work in tech or to ever have a college degree or to ever be part of this community. So if you don't have this information, you're just, you know, 20 steps behind and we Yeah.

我们只想确保每个人都能站在同一起跑线上

Just want to make sure everyone's on equal

这是非常崇高的目标。教育人们为自己争取权益很重要，过去五六年关于薪资谈判的讨论很多——来自弱势背景的人，或是家族里没人传授这些技巧的人（尤其是女性），在谈判时往往不够强势。即便工作表现同样出色，却因为信息不对称而薪酬偏低。我喜欢你们普及税务优化、谈判技巧、市场薪资水平这些知识的理念，让普通人也能像高管一样确保获得应得报酬。

I think it's a very noble cause and it's good to educate people so they can advocate for themselves. I think there's a lot that's been said, especially in the last five, five, six years, just about salary negotiation and how people from, in particular, underprivileged backgrounds or people who don't have the connections of their family to teach them this kind of stuff, in many cases, women are just a little bit less aggressive when it comes to negotiating and often just don't get paid as much as their peers, even though they're doing just as good of work because they come into these negotiations just with less information. And so I like the idea of teaching people and giving people the tools and sort of, like you said, democratizing this information about how to save money on taxes or how to negotiate well or what, like, a typical offer looks like so that the average person can be as good as, like, you know, a higher exec and making sure they get paid what they deserve.

很多人没意识到这事要从职业早期就开始重视。虽然大家都认同迟早要谈判，但很少人考虑'多早才算早'这个问题。

A lot of people also they'll realize that this needs to happen super early in your career. Right? So like, we all agree at some point you should be negotiating. Right? But not a lot of people think about how early that should happen.

我刚为正在写的文章引用了一项哈佛研究：追踪女性从毕业到退休的职业生涯，分析谈判行为对收入的影响。数据显示，如果女性在人生第一份工作时没谈判，首年平均少赚7000美元，整个职业生涯累计损失65万到100万美元——复利效应就是这么惊人。

I was going to quote a study. I just sent this for an article I'm writing. So Harvard did a study that's super interesting, and it basically trails the careers of women from the time that they graduate all the way to the time that they retire. And it looks whether they negotiated or not and what their outcome was. And essentially, if a woman doesn't negotiate at the time that she graduates, so her very, very first job, on average, she'll like lose 7,000 in the first year, and between 650,000 and a million over the course of her career.

每当你觉得'offer还行'而放弃谈判时，其实错过了巨额收益。这对我而言很切身——我成长在极度贫困的环境，完全零资源，始终觉得自己是这些圈子的局外人。

Because when you compound that, it actually adds up to a ton. So when you think about like all the times you didn't negotiate for yourself, even if you felt like the offer was fair, there's gonna be a ton you're missing out of. And for me, that's really personal because I was one of those people growing up who had like basically zero resources. And I came from, you know, a very, very, very poor background. And so I always experienced myself as an outsider to a lot of these communities.

我依赖他人的善意与恩惠来教导和指引我。很幸运我得到了这些。但还有很多人没这么幸运，我们不该依靠运气来做出公平的选择。对吧？确实如此。

And I relied on other people's like kindness and grace to teach me and to mentor me. And I was lucky that I got that. But there's so many people who are not lucky, and we should not rely on luck to make equitable choices. Right? So Yeah.

我个人层面非常在意这件事。

I really care about this on a personal level.

那么我们来聊聊你的背景。你是在保加利亚长大的？

So let's talk about your background a little bit. Grew up in Bulgaria?

我在保加利亚出生长大，那是个邮票大小的国家。全国人口约700万，而且正在快速减少，是世界上人口下降最快的国家之一。想想旧金山都有1000万人口，比我们全国还多。我成长于剧烈动荡的时期。

I grew up and I was raised in Bulgaria, which is like a post stamp of a country. If you were talking about that, it has the population of the whole country is, like, 7,000,000 and declining very fast. It's one of the fastest declining countries in the world. And And so if you think about like, I think San Francisco has 10,000,000 people living here, it's less than the population of the city. I grew up at a time of like intense turmoil.

当时我国正从共产主义转向民主制度。我在这个转型期长大，家人经历了物资匮乏、粮食短缺，以及对未来的巨大不确定性。

We were a communist country that was turning to democracy. And I was growing up during that transition, so my family experienced a lot of scarcity and food insecurity and just a lot of uncertainty about the future.

你小时候能明显意识到这是个特殊的成长时期吗？比如社会动荡明显？还是说因为年纪小，觉得生活本来就是这样？

When you were a child, was it like obvious to you that like this was a unique period to be growing up in in Bulgaria? Like, there was, like, a lot of unrest? Or was it because I imagine when you grow up somewhere, it's like, well, you're a kid. You don't really know any better. That might just be like, yeah.

觉得这就是生活的常态？

This is just how life is.

标准答案是否定的。共产主义让我们与世隔绝，无法获取国外新闻，只能看到国内媒体报道。我在恐惧中长大。

The audience answer is no. I think we were very closed off because of communism. So there was no, like, news coming in from outside of the country. You can only get the, like, national news, national newspapers. And I grew up in a lot of fear.

从小就被教育不要询问政权状况，不要过多讨论，因为说错话或开玩笑都可能让人消失。当时我并不觉得这不正常，但确实知道家里有些事不正常——我一半家人是共产主义者，另一半完全不是，我在非共产的那方长大。

I was taught from a young age, like, don't ask anything about how the regime is doing or don't talk too much about it because people could disappear if you make a joke or if you say something wrong. And so I think I didn't know it was not normal. I certainly knew some of the things my family was doing were not normal. My family did not you know, kind of half of my family is very communist and the other half is not at all. And so I grew up with the half that's not at all.

由于不支持政权，我们几乎一无所有。要自制食物：自己做肥皂、奶酪、酸奶。我祖父攒钱在森林里养了头牛。

And so, because they were not supportive of the regime, we got basically and no we had to make our own food. So we made our own soap. We made our own cheese. We made our own yogurt And we, like, owned nothing. So my grandpa had, like, saved money and literally had, like, a a cow in the forest.

而且我完全没有在开玩笑。我们当时要赶着，大概五头，对，六头牛去隐蔽牧场。后来只剩两头牛了——两头牛和一头猪。

And I'm not even, like, remotely joking. Like, we would walk, like, five, Yeah. Six cows in the Hidden cow. Then it was two cows. There was two cows and a pig.

后来我们还养了鸡。我们在不属于自己的林地上偷偷劳作，因为非党派成员不允许拥有土地。我们总在天亮前和日落后行动，避免被人举报——要知道我们真的可能因此被拘留。我们挤牛奶制作乳制品，把产品分给街坊里那些没有母乳的妈妈们，让她们的婴儿能活下来。

Then we had chicken. We were in a forest on, like, land we didn't own because we were not allowed as non supporters of the party to own land. And we would go, like, before dawn and, like, after sunset so people wouldn't see because they could report us and, you know, we literally could be detained. And we would milk cows and make products out of it. And many of the other people in our neighborhood who had babies but didn't have any milk, we would give that to them to make sure that their kids survived.

那段成长岁月非常艰难，但它教会我一件事：金钱至关重要。我在极小的时候就理解了金钱的概念，也明白了经济不平等正是苦难的根源。可以说，我毕生都在为现在从事的事业做准备。

It tough, very tough growing up, but it taught me one thing, and that was that money was very important. Like, I had a concept of money at a very, very young age. And knowing that inequity, when it comes to money, was what was causing this. I had that concept at a very young age. So in a way, like my whole life I've been wanting to work on what I'm working now.

我童年的遭遇本质上源于巨大的社会不公，而我希望这种不公永远从世界上消失。

The consequences of my childhood essentially are from, you know, enormous inequity, and I don't want that to ever exist in the world.

没错。我前段时间读到一项关于创业精神与童年贫困/逆境的研究。大量证据表明，童年经历更多磨难的人往往更容易成为创业者。这项研究以1960年代中国大饥荒为例，当时很多幸存的孩子后来都成了流动创业者——他们长大后迁徙异地，白手起家。

Right. I was reading a study, I don't know when, maybe a couple months ago, about just like entrepreneurship and like childhood poverty, childhood adversity. And there's a lot of evidence to suggest that like people who go through additional hardships as children are more likely to become entrepreneurs when they're older for a variety of reasons. And so I think in this particular study, they were they were studying, like, the great Chinese famine of, like, 1960 or whatever, and a lot of the kids who came out of that famine became basically migrant entrepreneurs. They grew up, they moved to a different place, and they started businesses.

或许正如你所说，这种经历让人过早理解了金钱、生存等成人概念，懂得如何通过创业来获取和交换资源。我童年时从不需要思考'镇上婴儿缺奶了，我们的奶牛在哪？该怎么供应？'这类问题。

And maybe, you know, as you're suggesting, like, reason for that is because when things are so hard, you do become acutely aware of, like, very adult concepts like money and survival and kind of how entrepreneurship and how basically acquiring and trading resources works. You know, when I was a kid, I was not thinking about, okay, the babies in my town need milk. Where's our cow? How am I gonna provide this to them? You know?

我的童年相当优渥。但看看现在的你——既是实力雄厚的创业者，又是典型的流动创业者。你现居美国，正在旧金山公寓里和我视频通话，背景里都是旧金山风光，可谓功成名就。

I didn't have to think about any of that stuff because my childhood was pretty cushy. But with you, I mean, you're a very formidable entrepreneur now, and you're literally a migrant entrepreneur. You now live in The United States. I'm talking to you. You're in your San Francisco apartment with your San Francisco background, doing it big.

我对'成功'的定义其实很不同。虽然很感激科技圈众人对Candor的支持，但我的成功标准一直很简单：我祖父母都九十多岁了，能让他们安享晚年就是我的成功。

For me, like, my concept of doing it big is also just, like, really different. Like, I feel very fortunate to, you know, have so much support from the community and to have so many people in tech, like, really band behind Candor. But my idea of doing it big has always been, like, super simple. You know, my grandparents are, like, 92 and 94. So my idea of doing it big is, like, giving them a good life.

能实现这个目标，终结家族几代人承受的苦难循环，让我感到无比充实。这些困境往往不为人知——美国也有许多人和我有着相似的东欧童年，只是我们选择沉默。

And knowing that, like, I'm able to do that and I'm able to sort of kind of close that circle they've been a part of for many generations now, just feels really good. Like, it feels really meaningful. A lot of times, these these are invisible situations, right? People in The US have very similar childhoods to what I did in Eastern Europe. We just don't talk about it, and we don't see it.

因此我们需要默默完成许多工作来改变现状。这种成长经历是个警示——它未必让你成为更好的创业者，但必定让你深刻认识到人性的脆弱，并珍视那些金钱买不到的东西：爱、正直与诚实。

And so there's a lot of work we have to do that's invisible to most people to to get this to not be a thing. And I think it's it's a cautionary tale to grow up that way. I don't know if it makes you a better or worse entrepreneur. I think it definitely just makes you aware of your humanity and of your fragility as a human. And it gives you an appreciation of very basic things that you know, they're not connected to money, like things like love and integrity and honesty that you can't buy.

但当你有了钱才会明白，那些才是真正重要的东西。

But you realize when you get money that those were the things that mattered all along anyway.

你是怎么来到这里的？怎么离开保加利亚的？

How did you get here? How did you get out of Bulgaria?

坐飞机。很小就来了，所以我很早就懂事了。我的青少年时期非常动荡，可以说基本上是自己把自己拉扯大的。我14岁就高中毕业了。

On a plane. On a plane. I got here very young, so I knew very, very early on. You know, I had a very tumultuous youth, and I basically kind of raised myself is probably the best way to put it. So I graduated high school when I was 14 years old.

当时我以为高中毕业就能被雇佣找到工作。但金融界没多少人想雇个14岁的孩子，这是我第一次面对残酷现实。后来幸运地来到美国，大概15岁左右。

And I thought that graduating high school meant I could get hired and I could go get a job. And not many people in finance wanna hire a 14 year old. That was like a first harsh reality for me. And then I got lucky that I got to come to The US. I came here when I was like 15.

这边认识的人给了我一点帮助，但总共就500美元。第一年我住在保加利亚人合租的房子里，有点像移民的临时落脚点。如果你语言不通、没有信用记录或手机，大家都会帮你，但这需要极强的韧性。

I had a little bit of support from people that I knew here already, but basically that amounted to $500. So I lived in this kind of communal house of other people that are Bulgarian for the first year. It's kind of like a landing pad for immigrants. Like, if you don't speak the language really well or you have no credit or you have no phone, everybody kind of hooks you up. But it comes with a ton of strength.

你必须赢得同等尊重。这样生活一年后，我逐渐站稳脚跟开始工作。用我的话说就是'室内工作'，因为移民最初找的工作都不体面——零售、搬货、餐饮服务，这些我都经历过。当时能获得室内工作对我来说就是巨大胜利。

You have to do those same respect. I lived that way for a year and then kind of found my footing and started working. As I as I would call it indoors, because the first jobs you get as an immigrant, like, they're not fun. You're working for retail or you're loading a truck somewhere or you're doing catering, and I lived through that. And my big triumph was, like, getting an indoor job, which was, like, so important to me at the time, you know?

我就是不想在户外干活。他们终于让我坐在

Like, I just don't wanna be outdoors. Like, they just put me in front

一台

of a

电脑前，之后一切就顺利了。但走到那一步真的非常艰难。

computer, and then it was it was all fine from there. But getting to that point was, like, really a struggle.

我18岁暑假干过建筑工。真的？每天都像在鬼门关走一遭。

I had a construction job. Really? For a summer when I was 18. It was horrible. I almost died every day.

我当时就像踩在钉子上。走进那些满是亮黄色粉尘的房间时，我心想可能不该吸入这些，但我没戴口罩。其他人也都这么走进来，那就干吧。我们在建一家酒店。我迫不及待想逃离那份工作，之后也格外珍惜在空调房里、坐在舒适椅子上工作的日子。

I was stepping on nails. I was walking into rooms full of like just like bright yellow dust that I'm like, probably shouldn't be inhaling this, but I don't have a mask. And everyone else is walking in here, so let's do it. We're building a hotel. And I could not wait to get out of that job, and I also appreciated working indoors with AC, sitting in a cushy chair so much more after that job.

但我也逐渐适应了。现在对这种差异没那么敏感了，毕竟那是十五六年前的事了。我在想，像你这样经历过艰苦成长环境的人，现在身处硅谷——在咖啡馆遇到的人、播客里对话的对象都过着优渥生活——你是怎么...

But I also have, like, kind of acclimated. Like, now, like, I don't appreciate the difference as much anymore because, like, that was, like, fifteen, sixteen years ago. And so I wonder, like, with you, you know, like, you had this upbringing that was really tough, but now you're, like, in Silicon Valley. Like, the people that you meet at coffee shops, the people that you talk to in podcast episodes have also, like, living like this very cushy, comfortable life.

确实。

Sure.

你怎么防止价值观被改变呢？比如如何守护你的野心？你提到想照顾祖父母等等，但到了硅谷后很容易觉得那不够。

How do you not I guess, do you protect your values from changing? You know? Like, how do you protect your ambition? Like, you mentioned that you really wanted, like, you know, take care of your grandparents, etcetera. But, like, once you get to Silicon Valley, it's so easy to be like, that's not enough.

懂吗？会想着'我要打造史上最大独角兽，做不到就不快乐'。

You know? I need to build the biggest unicorn ever, I won't be happy unless I do that.

我确实每天醒来睡去都带着这种驱动力。对我来说，打造这样的企业很重要。我有个时钟和时刻表规划公司上市，每天都是向目标迈进的一步。

Well, I definitely like, I I wake up and go to bed with that drive. Right? So building something like that is important to me. Like, I have a a clock and a timetable when I wanna take my company public. I have a calendar, and every day is, like, an to that goal.

我知道那何时会发生，这不是问题。问题只在于能否按自己的时间表实现。

So I, like, I know when that's going to happen. It's not even a question. It's just more so, like, will I meet my own timetable or not?

所以你两者兼备：既有硅谷式雄心，也有'照顾好祖父母就满足'的心态。

So you've got both. You've got the big Silicon Valley ambitions and the I'm happy if I take care of my grandparents.

对我来说这两者相互滋养，并不矛盾。以我祖父母为例，他们现在处于人生最后阶段，都在临终关怀中心。状态好时能认出我，多数时候不能。

I think they feed each other for me. Like, they're not juxtaposed. Like, they're very, very together. So my grandparents, to give me an idea, I helped take care of them, they are in the very last stages of life right now. They're both in hospice.

目睹亲人经历这种生命转折，会让你深刻思考：94岁时我想成为什么样的人？对我而言，最大的共鸣是既想壮大公司，又相信公司存在的意义是造福世界——这两件事本就相辅相成。

They know who I am on a very good day. So most of the time they don't know who I am. When you did someone go for that transition in life, it gives you such a craving realization of like, who do I want to be and how do I want to feel like when I'm 94? And for me, the really big alignment I felt is that I felt that I wanted to be the person that built this company really big. And for me, those two things feed each other because I believe my company exists to do good in the world.

我相信人们都看在眼里。正因如此我们获得了巨大的支持。我认为自己会让事情变得比接手时更好。对我来说，为之奋斗很重要，因为这意味着做大做强、扩大规模并非我的财务目标，而是为了让更多人接触到这项我认为重要的事业，产生更大影响——这才会让我在94岁时感到自豪。

I believe that people see that. And that's why we have like the tremendous support. And I believe that I'll leave things better than how I found them. And for me, it's important to fight for that because then it means that being big and getting scale is not a financial goal for me. It's a goal of reaching more people and having more impact with a cause that I feel like is important and something I would feel proud of, you know, when I'm 94.

我在硅谷最大的困扰就是 burnout（职业倦怠）。我完全算不上是个生活平衡的人，这种生活方式让我相当挣扎。

And so the thing I struggle with the most in Silicon Valley is burnout. And I'm, like, a 100% not, like, the most balanced person, and that's something I struggle with quite a bit in my lifestyle.

是啊，这行太常见了。基本没什么平衡可言。整天就是冲冲冲，突然发现'糟了，我 burnout 了什么都干不了'，缓过来后又继续冲冲冲。这种人格类型太普遍了。

Yeah. That's pretty common in stuff. Think there's very little balance. There's a lot of go go go go go, oh crap, I'm burned out, I can't do anything, okay I'm back, let's go go go go go. It's a very common personality type.

刚进入科技圈时，看那些行业报道，头条尽是些往咖啡里加黄油、冰浴疗法、输血治疗，天知道还有什么维生素点滴。现在我自己居然变成'给我全来一套'那种人了，这到底是怎么发生的？

You know, like, when you first start in tech and you first start, like, kind of reading through, like, what tech is like, a lot of the headlines are, like, people are drinking coffee with butter in it and taking, like, ice baths and Uh-huh. Doing, like, blood transfusions, and god only knows what else, like, vitamin drips. And now I'm like, give me all of these things. Like, I will take all of these things. And, like, how does that even happen to me?

我真的变成这种人了吗？但说到底，不过是为了那一点点性能提升罢了，对吧？

Am I really this person now? But it's just like anything for, like, an inch more of performance. Right?

人类的特质之一就是适应性。把一群人扔到北极，假设他们没全死光，一百年后回来看——他们会发展出各种工具、生活方式和文化，完全适应了环境。同理，把一群人放进硅谷，你看看会发生什么。

I think one of the things that makes us human is that we are adaptable. You know, you can take a bunch of people, put them in the Arctic, and, you know, assuming they don't all die, you come back a hundred years from now. Like, they all have all sorts of different tools and ways of life and cultures. They've just adapted to that environment. And you take a bunch of people, you put them in Silicon Valley, and you look what's going on.

没错，各种疯狂的输血疗法、冰浴什么的，因为你适应了这种文化氛围——拼命工作来实现梦想。这种文化并非到处都有。最近几年似乎出现了人才外流，人们开始逐渐离开。

Yeah. There's crazy blood transfusions and ice baths and all this stuff because you adapt to the culture and the lifestyle of, like, working super hard to make your dream a reality. And that's not a culture that exists everywhere. And I guess in recent months or years, I guess, there's sort of a diaspora. People are sort of moving away.

你提到可能搬去迈阿密，我现在住在西雅图。虽然不确定文化是否会改变，但人的可塑性是真实存在的——这很大程度上取决于你的目标、所处环境以及周围人的行为模式。

You're mentioning potentially moving to Miami. You know, live in Seattle now. So I don't know if the culture is necessarily gonna change, but it is a very real thing that who you are is flexible and that it depends a lot around, like, what your goals are and where you are and what everybody around you is doing.

我也想反问同样的问题：你是怎么保持平衡的？你建立了地球上最棒的社区之一，面对的是非常相似的挑战。必须时刻保持状态，支持他人，践行与社区相同的价值观。

I I wanna ask you the same question back. Like, how do you stay balanced? You build literally one of the best communities on Earth, and you have very similar things you're tackling. Right? You have to always kind of be on and and to be supportive and to to kind of live the same values as your community.

你最初是怎么应对这种情况的？

So how did you first deal with it when you started?

我当时完全失衡了

I wasn't balanced at

真的吗？

all. Really?

我是说，或许公平地讲，我的一段感情结束是因为我创办了MD Hackers，那时我每周工作80小时，处于不停冲冲冲的状态。那是2016年2月，我没什么做好这件事的建议，因为我自己也没处理好。但另一方面，我认为真正社区的酷炫之处在于，价值来自社区成员本身。作为创建者，你只是塑造一个空间，让他人能在其中互助。

I mean, it's probably it's probably fair to say that, like, I had a relationship end because I started MD Hackers because I was working eighty hours a week, and I was in go go go go go mode. You know? And that was 02/2016, so I don't have any tips for for how to do it well because I didn't do it well. But at the same time, I think one of the cool things about a community, a true community, is that the value comes from the people who are part of the community. And as a community creator, you're just sort of like shaping the space that other people can help each other in.

最棒的是当社区运转良好时，你可以退居二线，让社区自主发展。MD Hackers花了很久才达到这种状态，但现在我可以去露营一两周，回来时社区依然完好。大家的快乐或不满程度和我离开前一样，因为他们互相帮助，除了播客几乎不依赖我。所以现在轻松多了，但早期我也经历过倦怠，这其实很常见。

And the cool thing about it is when it's working, you can kind of step aside and the community is doing its own thing. And it took a long time for any hackers to get to that point, but like I can go, you know, camping for a week or two and come back. It's still together. People are still equally as happy or unhappy as they were before I left because they're, like, helping each other, and they don't really depend on me to do very much besides the podcast. And so nowadays, it's much easier, but in the early days, I was also subject to burnout, and I think that's it's pretty common.

你会怀念那种状态吗？我觉得那种全情投入的感觉太让人上瘾了。很多人听到'倦怠'就联想到负面含义，觉得'啊你一定工作得很痛苦'。但对我来说，那只是因为事情太有趣了。

Do you miss it? I feel like working out that faith is just so addictive. I think a lot of times people, when they hear burnout, they have, like, a negative connotation to it. They're like, oh, you must be working so hard that it's horrible. And instead for me, it's just like, it's just so interesting.

根本停不下来，就像在读全世界最精彩的书。懂吗？虽然伴随的情绪有时极度积极。比如我离开银行业时——那是个每周百小时、零私人时间、永远在飞机上的工作。

I can't stop. It's like reading the most interesting book in the world. Right? It's just the actual emotion around that sometimes it's extremely positive. And for me, it's like when I left when I left banking, banking for me was like a, you know, hundred hour a week job, zero slave, always on a plane.

当时我甚至觉得还需要再挤出20小时。这种状态太容易让人沉迷了

It it was almost like I need twenty more hours. I'd get too predictive to

有时候确实。这方面其实有很多研究，比如工作中让人幸福的要素是目标感、自主权和成长空间。作为初创创始人，你不断精进专业能力，

it. Sometimes. I mean, I think there's a I mean, there's a lot of research on this too. Like, what makes you happy in in a job is like this combination of purpose, autonomy, and mastery. And so as a startup founder, like, you're developing mastery.

持续面对各种棘手难题，其中许多从未被解决过，或没有现成指南。即使其他公司解决过类似问题，放在你这里也会完全不同。你必须自己摸索解决方案。还有自主权——虽然可能有投资人或董事会，但没人真正指挥你。比如你今天本可以不做这期播客。这种完全掌控自己命运的感觉对幸福至关重要。

You're constantly being I guess, coming up against these very difficult to solve problems, many of which have never been solved or there's not a great guide to solve it. Or even even if other people have solved it at their company, it's gonna look different for years. And so you have to figure out how to, like, solve that problem. Then there's autonomy. Maybe you have investors.

你醒来后可以做任何想做的事。没人对你指手画脚，这种终极自主权我认为是幸福的关键——感觉命运掌握在自己手中。

Maybe you have a board or something, but no one's really telling you what to do. Like, you wake up and do whatever you want. You know? You didn't have to do this podcast episode. So you have, like, ultimate autonomy, which is so important, I think, for happiness, to not have somebody telling you what to do and to feel like your fate is in your own hands.

然后你有了目标。我认为对我来说，目标就是那种将使命与超越自我的事业相结合的状态。通过坦诚，你实际上是在帮助世界变得更美好——你直接帮助人们在工作中赚更多钱、获得更大成就感、掌握他们原本不具备的技能。当你成功时，那种成就感远大于个人得失。

And then you have purpose. And I think for me, purpose is where, like, it's a combination of having, like, this mission, this thing that you're doing that's bigger than yourself. And so with candor, you're, like, helping make the world a better place. You're literally helping people make more money at their jobs, be more fulfilled, and acquire these skills they didn't have. And when you're successful, it's, like, that's bigger than you.

你不只是在充实自己，更是在帮助他人，这非常了不起。Andy Hackers也秉持类似理念。但我觉得目标的另一半在于付出艰辛努力——通过行动明确展示这不是为了自己。当你汗流浃背地拼命工作、清晨醒来感到些许痛苦时，这种奉献精神就再明显不过了：显然是为了比自我更宏大的事物，因为过程如此艰难。

You're not just, like, enriching yourself, but you're helping other people, and that's awesome. So with Andy Hackers, had kind of the same thing. But I think the other half of purpose, and this is where the hard work comes in, is doing things that make it kind of obvious that it's not for yourself. And when you're working really, really hard and you're sweating and you wake up and you feel a little bit miserable, can't be more obvious. Like, you know, is for something bigger than me because it's hard.

明白吗？就像我朋友一年前刚生了孩子，她经常压力很大。这很不容易。但正是这种艰难放大了目标感——她清楚自己如此拼命是为了另一个生命的成长。

You know? Like, my friend just had a baby a year ago and, like, she's stressed a lot of the time. It's hard. You know? And it's like it's like that sort of amplifies a sense of purpose because she's like, you know, this is for this other person's life that I'm working so hard, etcetera.

所以我其实有点怀念那种状态，不过我同意你的观点：拼命工作未必意味着痛苦。如果具备那三个要素（自主权/掌控感/目标感），你完全可以在辛勤工作的同时获得巨大满足和快乐。

And so I kinda miss it, but I agree with you that, like, just because you're working really hard doesn't necessarily mean that you're miserable. If you have those three things, you can be working very hard and be super fulfilled and super happy.

是啊。这种感觉特别容易上瘾，尤其是当你发现它真的很有趣时。对吧？我才入行两年——实际上还不到两年，可能还处于蜜月期。

Yeah. It's just it's very it's it's very addictive, especially, like, if if you're if you find it really interesting. Right? And I'm only two years old. Like, actually, I'm less even than two years, so maybe I'm in a honeymoon phase still.

但我现在仍处于觉得一切都超级有趣的阶段。实际上我很难入睡——这几乎是我最大的困扰。每晚大概只睡四小时，最多五小时。

But I I'm still in the phase where really, really interesting. It's actually hard it's very hard for me to sleep. Like, it's one of the things I struggle with the most. Like, I probably do four hours a night, five hours max.

嗯。

Yeah.

这还算好的情况。经常半夜醒来冒出个想法，我就记下来，然后想着'再完善一点点'。接着突然发现——等等，十五分钟后就要开会了？得，今晚别想睡了。

And that's, like, on a good night. So I wake up, and I'll have an idea. And then I'll write it down, and I'm like, oh, no. Let me just flush it out just a little more. And then, like, should I say to him?

就像现在这样，明明十五分钟后要开会，脑子却停不下来——今晚的睡眠又泡汤了。

I'm like, I'm like, having a meeting in, like, fifteen minutes. Like, that was it. No more sleeping tonight.

这样不好。你需要睡眠。虽然我没资格说教——你看我手上这个Whoop健康手环，它总在提醒我这点。

It's not great. You need sleep. And I'm not one to lecture. I just got this, this thing on my wrist here. It's like a whoop.

这是一款能监测心率的智能手环，相当不错。他们的应用程序非常棒，仅凭心率数据就能提供关于睡眠、恢复状态等各种统计信息。因为他们运行了很多算法——不过我的睡眠质量糟糕透了。

And it's a band that tracks your heart rate. It's pretty good. Their app is awesome. They give you all sorts of stats about your sleep and your recovery and all sorts of stuff just based on your heart rate. Because And they run a lot of algorithms on my sleep is atrocious.

自从戴上它这两个月以来，我平均每天只睡四个半到五小时。这甚至不是因为我会想着什么疯狂难题而醒来，纯粹就是睡不好。但我确实认为睡眠很重要——比如做这期播客，昨晚睡得好，我就感觉自己状态绝佳。

I'm also averaging like four and a half, five hours of sleep over the past, like, two months since I got it. And it's not even because I'm waking up thinking about any sort of, like, crazy problem or anything. It's just, like, I just don't sleep that well. But I I do think that it's important to sleep because I have, like like, for example, this podcast. I slept pretty well last night, so I feel like I'm top of my game.

感觉现在能和你畅快交流。有些播客里你可能听得出我有点疲惫，这直接反映出我睡眠不足。作为创始人，既要应对高速运转的大脑和令人上瘾的工作乐趣（说实话比躺在床上数羊有趣多了），又要保持自我照顾，这个平衡很难把握。

I feel like I can have a great conversation with you. Other podcasts, like you might listen to me, I feel a little bit tired or whatever, I sound tired, and it's like directly correlated to me not sleeping that well. And so I think it's a tricky balance as a founder to like take care of yourself when your brain is racing and everything is so addictive and so fun, quite frankly. It's a lot more fun than lying in bed, staring at the ceiling, trying to go back to sleep.

完全同意。我现在对胰岛素抵抗这类问题异常敏感，睡眠时长与胰岛素抵抗或压力承受之间的关系真的非常有趣。

Yeah. No. A 100%. I've really become, like, acutely aware of things like insulin resistant. And I think that's that's incredibly interesting, the relationship between how much sleep you have and your insulin resistance or how you prop the stress.

我花了很多时间调整饮食结构，既为提升表现优化，也为真正滋养身体。成为创始人后，我反而更注重自我照顾：坚持治疗、充足运动、增加睡眠——虽然四小时对投行出身的人来说已经是奢侈了。

And I spent a ton of time, I think, adjusting my diet to be much more optimized for performing and also much more optimized for just giving me energy, really nourishing my body and taking care of myself. For me, it's actually been very positive in a way to think about these things. Because when I was not a founder, I didn't think as much about taking care of myself. And when I became a founder, I actually like really got focused on taking care of my body and doing therapy and, you know, exercising enough and sleeping more, even though four hours doesn't seem like a lot. It's actually a lot when you come from banking.

所以对我来说这已经很多了...虽然还是很糟糕。但至少我的健康观念确实比当创始人之前更好了。

So it's still a lot for me. That's terrible. Yeah. But I actually become become healthier as a founder, at least in my mindset.

做艰难的事确实会倒逼你关注这些。就像我的车——

Yeah. I mean, I think it pushes you when you're doing hard things. You kinda have to pay attention. You know? I have my car.

我对车完全不上心，轮胎气压不足也懒得去修。但要是职业赛车手，肯定会有专业团队精心维护。

I'm terrible with my car. I don't take it to the shop. I just drive it around with, like, the air pressure low on a tire because I don't care. Right? If I was a race car driver and I had to perform super hard, like, I would have a whole team taking care of my car.

不如聊聊你的创业历程？从保加利亚到美国的过渡期，后来怎么想到创立Candor？是怎么进入创业圈的？

But wanna talk about, like, this process of you becoming a founder. Because you got from the from the story of you, like, moving from Bulgaria to The US Yeah. And living in, like, sort of this landing pad. But, like, how did you, like, how did you come up with the idea for Candor? How did you get into, I guess, the startup scene?

我职业生涯大部分时间在金融业，想真正理解金钱的运作方式。2008年次贷危机时得到第一份金融工作（虽然感觉像上辈子的事），那简直是全世界最糟糕的工作，却让我学到了无数东西。

So worked in finance for most of my career. So I wanted to really understand how money worked. And my first finance job was in 2008 during the foreclosure crisis. I don't know if you remember, it's not too long ago, but it feels like a century to me. And it was the most horrible job in the world, but it taught me so, so much.

本质上，我当时在为房地美工作，这家公司拥有所有由美国银行和富国银行等机构服务的抵押贷款。我的工作首先是查明人们为何不偿还贷款，以及哪些抵押贷款池基本上已经无法挽救了——就是说这些贷款已经变成坏账了。这需要做一些非常人性化的工作，比如实际与人交谈，仔细审查人们的预算——所有细节，试图判断他们所说的话和花钱方式是否诚实。这对我来说是一次关于美国人如何理财的重要启蒙，因为很多情况对我来说都很新鲜。

So essentially I was working for Freddie Mac, who is the company that owns all the mortgages that are serviced by like Bank of America and Wells Fargo. And my job was to find out, first of all, why people were not paying their loan and which mortgage pools of loans basically were just like not salvageable anymore. Like the loans were bad. And that involved doing something really human and involved like actually talking to people and literally going through people who budget, like everything, and trying to figure out if people are truthful about what they're saying and how they're spending their money. And that was like a really big education for me on on just how people in The US dealt with money because a lot of things were new for me.

在我的国家，当时并没有真正完善的银行体系。没有信贷这个概念，甚至拥有借记卡都算是件很酷的事。所有这些对我来说都很新奇，对吧？后来我成了损失缓解和处理复杂抵押贷款问题的专家，这也让我最终进入咨询合规领域，先后从事租户合规和私人银行业务。

In my country, there was like not really an established strong banking system. There was no credit. Like even having a debit card, were like really cool if you had that. Like all of these things were like really new, right? And I became an expert on loss mitigation and essentially dealing with very complex mortgage issues, which is how I ended up eventually consulting and compliance and working at tenant compliance and then ultimately in private banking.

我曾在一家为美国最富有人群服务的银行工作。他们处理各种超级有趣的抵押贷款类型和复杂金融产品。我从基层做起，五年内获得了六七次晋升，最终成为银行总裁的助手——她现在已是CEO。

And I worked at a bank that basically services all of the richest people in The US. So they deal with very kind of super interesting types of mortgages and complex product. And I struggled at the bottom and, like, literally got promoted, like, six or seven times or something in, like, five years and ended up working for the president. She's now the CEO.

你既接触过许多无力偿还房贷的人，了解他们违约的原因，后来又转到另一个部门研究那些拥有最复杂交易的超级富豪。你觉得财务精明的富人和那些为房贷挣扎或违约的普通美国人之间最大的区别是什么？

Having talked to a bunch of people who couldn't pay their mortgages and learning, okay. Here's why people can't pay their mortgages, and then moving to this other sort of division or place where you're talking to, like you're examining, like, the richest people who have, like, the most complex deals. Like, what were some of the differences between, like, very wealthy, I guess, financially savvy people, and, like, the average American who was, like, struggling to pay their mortgage or just was defaulting on their loans?

最根本的区别在于知识获取渠道。说实话，同样的金融工具对富人可能非常有利，但对缺乏历史性资源获取途径的非富裕人群甚至不被视为有益之物。举个非房贷的例子：财产规划就很典型。富人百分之百会咨询信托专员，讨论遗产规划或资产传承。

The biggest difference is access to knowledge, honestly. Like, a lot of times, the same financial instrument is very beneficial for somebody who's wealthy or, you know, not even known as a helpful thing for somebody who is not wealthy and has not historically had access I'll give you an example of something that's not mortgages. Props are a really good example. If you're someone who's wealthy, you a 100% have spoken to a trust officer. You've talked about your estate or how much money you're leaving.

也许你的一些资产甚至被转移到信托中。你的抵押贷款可能放在信托里。你知道，你所有的财产可能都存放在某种避税架构中，以优化税务，理清财务。人们总认为信托只是富人的专利。因此历史上我们从未真正推荐或考虑过信托也适用于我或像我这样的普通人，对吧？

And maybe some of the assets you have are even moved around trusts. Your mortgage might be in a trust. You know, all your stuff might be in some kind of shelter to kind of optimize your taxes, to, you know, figure things out. People think that trusts are just for rich people. And so we have historically not really recommended or even thought about trust as something that's for me or for someone like me, right?

事实上，对科技从业者这类人群来说，信托是极其有力的工具。当你持有快速增值的证券，比如以股票或限制性股票单位（RSU）形式获得报酬时，在职业生涯早期就建立信托并理解其运作机制将带来巨大优势。关键差异在于：一个人是否懂得利用手头的工具——知晓工具存在的人与全然不知者之间，结局天壤之别。

For a regular person. In fact, it's one of those powerful things for, for instance, people in tech. When you have a highly appreciating security and you're being paid in like a stock or like an RSU, getting into trust and understanding trust fairly early in your career is enormously powerful. And so the difference is really between outcomes is one person really knew how to utilize the things they had available to them. The other person didn't even know things were available to them.

这本质上不在于你拥有多少资金，而在于是否掌握管理这些资金的方法。即便本金微薄，只要深谙理财之道，你的处境就远胜于那些根本不知道这些工具存在的人。当前社会对信用使用的教育是严重缺失的。

And so it's not necessarily about the amount of money you have. It's about the access to how to manage that money. You can have very little money, but you could have a lot of knowledge on how to manage it. And you will be absolutely in a better position than someone who never even knew things were available to them. People are not educated about how to use credit.

我们常轻率地认为'这人只是不懂罢了'。不，当社会广泛推行信用制度时，教育民众如何正确使用就是集体的责任。这种教育不该带着居高临下的姿态，而应切实说明运作机制。可惜现实中，金融产品的宣传从不聚焦实际功能——

And we like to think about it as like, Oh, well, this person just doesn't know. No, it's society's responsibility if we're going to accept something that was for wide use, like credit, that we educate people before they get it. And that doesn't mean like, you know, education sometimes has a kind of condescending, like, you need to be educated. It's more so just like understand very practically how it works. We don't advertise financial products practically.

广告只会鼓吹'积分换度假'。人们渴求理财知识，却难寻可靠信息源。这才是最根本的差异：你会看到做出错误财务选择的人不断陷入信用债务，不善预算规划，或者根本不知道通过信托架构或不同的财务安排就能规避大量责任风险。

We advertise them as points to go on vacation. Right? And people really want and they're hungry for that information, but, you know, it's very hard to find a source of truth. So that's the biggest difference. You'd see people who make bad financial choices, they'd go deeper into credit or they would not structure their budget well or they didn't know that they could actually avoid a ton of liability by putting something in a trust or by structuring things differently.

很多时候，正是这些情况导致了止赎。当然，你知道，失业是那些你无法通过结构安排避免的事情之一。但如果人们能接触到朋友了解如何购买保险，或者能理解如何在投资账户中复利储蓄而非仅持有现金，那么打击可能会小得多，长期来看积累也会更丰厚。

And a lot of times, it's just those circumstances that led to foreclosure. Sure, you know, losing a job is one of those things that you can't structure away. It But could have been a significantly lesser blow had people, you know, had access to friends to understand how they could purchase insurance or had access to understand how they compound their savings in in an investment account and not just hold it in cash so it could have been much more over time.

这非常有趣。我的意思是，它直接关联到Candor，因为Candor本质上就是在弥合这个鸿沟。对吧？人们不一定掌握这些信息。他们没有受过教育来做出这些重大决策。

It's super interesting. I mean, it leads directly into, like, Candor because Candor is basically bridging this gap. Right? People don't necessarily have the information. They're not educated to make these great decisions.

所以你在Candor创办了这家公司，好的，现在你在教育人们帮助他们做出更好的财务决策。这就是动机吗？是什么让你决定这就是我应该做的生意。我应该创业，而这就是它应该做的。

And so you start this company in Candor and, okay, now you're educating people help them make better financial decisions. Was that, like, the motivation? Like, what what made you decide this is what I should do as a business. I should do a start up, and here's what it should be.

我感觉当时我面试的每个人都是这样。我当时在招聘数据科学家，有幸面试过来自苹果、高盛、Facebook等知名公司的人。这些人经验丰富，却完全不谈判。我们给出价格，他们就说‘好的，我来这里工作’，真的不会为自己争取权益。这让我觉得非常奇怪。

I felt like everyone I was interviewing at the time. So I was hiring data scientists, and I was fortunate to interview people from, you know, really good companies like Apple, Goldman, you know, Facebook, you name it. And those people were very experienced and they were still like not negotiating at all. And we would put out a price and they would say, great, I'll come work here or, you know, they really wouldn't self advocate. And it really struck me as odd.

我记得有次开始告诉人们：‘你可以向我要求更多’。

And I remember at some point I started telling people like, you can ask me for more.

你应该和我谈判。

You should negotiate with me.

是的。你应该和我谈判。然后我开始研究并意识到，这并不像我以为的那样普遍。因为在金融行业，人人都在谈判一切。而在科技行业，这其实远没有那么被接受。

Yes. You should negotiate with me. And then I started researching and understood that like, this is actually not common practice as I thought it would be. Because in finance, everyone negotiates everything. In tech, it's actually much less accepted.

在金融行业，套利就是生死攸关的事。对吧？所以别恨玩家，恨游戏规则。

Finance, you live and die by the arbitrage. Right? So don't hate the player. Hate the game.

这是你在金融行业的技能之一。就像，那是你的技能。而在科技行业，你的技能可能是‘我擅长营销’或‘我擅长编写这个代码’，而谈判薪水这部分工作，并不是我的专长，所以我想这不是文化的一部分。

It's part of your skill set when you're in finance. Like, that's your skill set. When you're in tech, like, your skill set is like, I am good at marketing, or I am good at coding this thing, and this other part of my job, right, negotiating my salary, is not really my expertise, so it's not part of the culture, I guess.

是的，后来我参加了很多破产会议，意识到这是个双重问题。首先，人们不知道自己其实是社会上最有价值的一些成员，对吧？他们实际上在建设未来。他们构建了我每天使用的一切。而他们的技能价值远超表面所见。

Yeah, and then, kind of, I went to a lot of bankrupt meetings also, I realized there's like, it's a two fold issue. Like first people don't know that they are the most, some of the most valuable members of society, right? They're literally building the future. They're building everything I use every day. And the skill set is much more valuable than face value.

人们并未真正被教导或相信这是事实。我觉得这不仅对他们个人是一种巨大的伤害，从社会层面看也是如此。为什么我们要看卡戴珊家族？我更想知道是哪位工程师打造了我使用的产品。对吧？

And people are not really taught or made to believe that that's true. And I felt like that was a massive disservice, not just to them as individuals, but like, societally. Like, why are we watching the Kardashians? Like, I want to know which engineer built like a product that I use. Right?

这才是我关心的。因此我深刻感受到这个痛点。同时我也意识到，当人们试图获取金融产品时，由于他们以股票形式获得报酬，他们的获取渠道要有限得多。另一方面，银行业尚未发展到足以理解如何为仅靠股票收入的人提供贷款、如何给他们房贷以及如何让他们享有平等金融服务。所以这是个双向问题。

That's what I care about. And so I really felt that that as a pain point. And I also just understood that people would come and try to get a financial product and their access to that was much lower because they were getting paid in stock. So on the other side, banking hadn't evolved enough to understand how to underwrite somebody who got paid solely in stock, how to give them a mortgage and how to give them equal access. So it was a two sided issue.

一方面，我们有很多第一代移民或来自完全不同行业思维的人，他们不知道自己可以要求更多，也不清楚自己有权使用大量金融工具。另一方面，整个金融体系自80年代以来就停滞不前，未能弥合这个鸿沟。我认为这在多方面都极其不合理。所以我们从薪酬谈判切入，因为想了解人们如何管理资金。有一年时间，我们不仅讨论如何谈判薪资，更聚焦'你打算怎么用这笔钱'。

On one side, you know, we have a lot of people who are either first gen or come from a very different mentality in their field, who don't know they could ask for more, also don't know they have access to a ton of financial instruments. On the other side, you have like a whole system that hasn't evolved since the 80s to bridge that gap. And I felt that that was messed up in so many ways. So we started with negotiation because we wanted to understand how people handle their money. And so for a year, we sort of had conversations with people around not just how to negotiate your salary, but what are you actually going to do with that money?

你为什么要更多钱？这如何契合你的整体规划？在决定推出首款产品前，我们需要深度理解科技从业者的金钱观及其形成原因。

And why do you want more money? And how does that fit into everything that you're doing? And understanding very deeply, like how people view money in tech and why they have certain conception about that before we decide on what what first product to roll out.

当我思考初创企业时，首先考虑的是你为人们解决什么问题？因为单从解决的问题就能洞察公司本质——可能拥有的客户类型、基于问题价值可定的价格、根据问题发生频率推测的产品使用频率等等。但创业还涉及其他要素：如何触达客户？提供什么具体产品或服务？

So when I think about a startup, the first thing I think about is what problem are you solving for people? Because you learn a lot about a company based solely on the problem that you're solving. You learn what kind of customers they might have, how much money they might be able to charge based on how, you know, valuable that problem is, how frequently the customers might use their product based on how frequently that problem occurs, etcetera. But you have all these other parts of a startup, which like, do you get distribution and actually reach your customers? And what is the actual product or service you're providing, etc?

你们的商业模式是什么？Candor最初这一年帮助人们进行薪资谈判和财务规划时，具体是如何运作的？

And what's your business model? So what did that look like for Candor? And this is the first year where you're helping with salary negotiation and what to do, what people should do with their salaries. We're like, okay. Well, how are you doing that?

你们如何找到并接触这些目标人群？具体形式是怎样的？

You know? And how are you reaching and finding these people? What did that look like?

David和我当时已在谈判领域小有名气。周末我们会在客厅举办沙龙，大家带着谈判或职业问题来集体探讨。最初是朋友间活动，后来口碑传播。我们甚至没想创业，只是建了个页面分享《薪资谈判指南》。

David and I had already, you know, had a fairly strong reputation for negotiating. So, like, on on weekends, we would literally hold, like, a salon in our living room, and people could come and, like, whatever the negotiation or career issue, we'd sort of handle it together. It started, like, with our friends, and then it kinda got forwarded along. So we literally put a page up with, here's our salary negotiation guide. We didn't even think about starting a company yet.

这份指南迅速病毒式传播。我们本无此意——当时我俩都有全职工作，只能告诉咨询者'我们无法代你谈判，但这里有你该知道的一切。如果指南未涵盖你的情况，欢迎邮件具体咨询'。

And the salary negotiation guide went super viral really fast. And we did not intend to. It was literally a thing we sent people to say, we can't like, we both have full time jobs. We can't like set a negotiate for you, but like, here's everything you should know. If your thing is not covered in there, then like, please email me a specific question.

我们立即意识到发现了真痛点。创业不久就遭遇新冠疫情，目睹许多人谈妥工作却被撤销offer（公司突然取消职位）。预算调整、裁员潮涌现，这正是疫情初期的情况。

And so we understood immediately we'd like discover the pain point. And I think very quickly after starting the business, COVID hit. And we realized that people were negotiating jobs, but getting their roles rescinded, which means the company pulled the position from under you. Budgets were changing, companies were laying people off. It's when COVID first hit.

对。

Right.

当时所有参与薪资谈判的人，他们中大多数人其实已经失业了。公司会在最后一刻撤销职位，所有人都在慌乱中挣扎。许多公司正在裁员。于是我的联合创始人大卫决定公开这些信息。我们掌握了哪些公司在这样做，我们认为这是极其恶劣的行为。

And so all these people that were negotiating the salaries, they majority of them had no job. The company would pull the job in the last minute and everyone was scrambling. A lot of companies were laying off. So David, my co founder, decided to make that information public. So we knew which companies were doing this, which we consider to be like a really grave offend.

他们甚至不通知当事人被解雇，人们来上班时才被告知，还对此开玩笑。我们发布了这份名单后迅速走红。第一天网站浏览量就超过百万，第二天直接导致服务器崩溃。谷歌的各项服务都瘫痪了。

Not even telling a person they don't have a job, they just show up and they're like, oh yeah, joking about that. So we published the list and the list went viral. Within the first day, we had over a million views on the website. And then like the second day, like it actually broke our site. Google, like it broke everything.

我们收到谷歌通知说Gmail账户因收到过量邮件被停用，不得不专门联系他们开通独立账户来证明我们不是垃圾邮件。因为数据量太惊人，连美国政府都联系我们索要数据——我记得是空军和五角大楼，为了供应链问题。毕竟我们掌握着裁员企业名单。

We got a notification from Google that our Gmail was shut off because we're getting too many emails. So we had to like email them to like get some separate account to convince them we're not spam. Because we're getting mad volume, and we even got, like, the US government reach out to us to ask for the data, like, the the, like, air force and the Pentagon, I think, for supply chain issues. Because we're, like, the list of who was laying people off.

这份名单涉及多少家公司？仅限于科技公司吗？

So how many how many companies were on this list? Was it just tech companies?

最初只有科技公司，后来开放公众添加任意企业。从约200家开始，最终接近10,000家。人们实时提交评论，社区志愿者会审核内容确保非谣传。有公司主动联系我们发布声明，我们就刊登企业声明。

It started with just tech companies, and then we let people add any companies. So it started with, like, 200, and I think it ended up close to 10,000. And people would real time put in comments, and we had, volunteers from the community that would read and sort the comments and make sure, you know, they're not like hearsay or inaccurate. We had companies reach out to us and make statements. We'd post company statement.

Candor成立第一周，我几乎与所有上市科技公司的CMO都通过话。这很令人忐忑，因为有人会威胁说'公布裁员消息会导致股价暴跌'。我就反问'你们确实在裁员吧？'对方承认后，我只能说'好吧'。

I've spoken to the, like, chief marketing officer of almost every public tech company in, like, the first week most of starting Candor. And that was very intimidating because some people would reach out to us and say, like, you're about to jack up our stock price if you tell people we're laying people off. I'm like, are you laying people off? Well, yeah. I'm like, okay.

那你们

Then what do

想要

you want

我怎么做？

me to do?

是啊，这就是事实。怎么回事？你在抬高自己公司的股价。

Yeah. That's that's the truth. What's going on? You're jacking up your own stock price.

对，我们有个创始人联系我，我都不知道他怎么... 嗯... 他弄到了我的号码，他说，嘿，我们快达成一笔交易了。如果成交，这些人就不用被裁了。

Yeah. We have this founder reach out, and I don't know how he even yeah. He got my number, he was like, hey. We're about close a deal. If we close a deal, we don't have to lay these people off.

所以能不能先别发布消息，等一天？当时情况很疯狂。我从一个科技圈无人知晓的角色，突然变成业内人尽皆知的人物。这让我压力很大，因为我非常注重隐私。对公司是好事，但对我个人而言那段时间非常难熬。

So, like, can you hold on just, like, posting it for a day? And it was just kind of crazy. So I went from, like, somebody that, like, people at tech didn't know to, like, everybody in tech knew who I was. And it was very intimidating for me because I'm super private. So it was good for the company, but it was just like a very tough personal period for me at the time.

嗯。你是怎么应对突然变得这么出名、这么容易被认出来的？

Yeah. How did you handle, like, suddenly being so public and recognizable?

我并不享受这个过程。我从小崇拜那些创造超越自我价值、留下印记的人，他们是我成长过程中真正尊敬的榜样。我也希望有朝一日能成为那样的人。但在我们发布名单的那个月，我对企业文化和公司本质的很多认知都被粉碎了——有些对外塑造最友好品牌的公司，直接对我玩失踪。

I did not enjoy it. I grew up idolizing people who kind of created something larger than themselves and and left a mark. Those are the people that I really respected growing up. And I really wanted to be like that someday. And I think a lot of my perceptions of what companies are like and cultures are like really got shattered that like one month period where we hosted the list because you have some of the companies who have the like most friendly brands externally literally going AWOL on me.

很明显他们根本不在乎几百人一夜失业，或者刚生完孩子的人被撤销offer。他们完全漠不关心。这彻底打破了我对'企业文化表里如一'的幻想。正是这样，这份通讯才诞生——我开始意识到公司对外宣传与员工实际体验有时存在巨大鸿沟，我觉得有责任给人们真相。

And it was very clear, like they didn't care if like hundreds of people had no jobs overnight, or that they'd screwed somebody who like just had a baby and they just like pulled their job offer. Then they absolutely gave like zero F's. And that really broke my perception of like, how real is culture on the outside versus the inside. And that's, that's kind of how the newsletter got born. I started really realizing that what companies were saying externally and what people were experiencing internally were really like, that was very, very odd of the spectrum sometimes, and I felt like the responsible thing to do was to just give people transparency.

那么，我们来聊聊你的通讯吧。就像我刚才说的，这是我在科技领域最爱的通讯之一。

So, yeah, let's talk about your newsletter. Because your newsletter, as I mentioned earlier, is one of my favorite newsletters in tech.

天啊。

Oh my god.

我会形容它完美融合了八卦、金钱和实用信息。每次阅读时我都搓着手期待，就像在品尝多汁的内幕。你处于这个独特位置，能获取所有人渴望但公司肯定不愿公开的信息。

I would describe it as, like, this perfect combination of, like, gossip and money and useful information. And so every time I read it, I'm just like rubbing my hands together like this is super juicy, had a need to get the dirt. And you're in this I don't You're just in this cool position where you just get to, I guess, get access to all this information that people would love to have, but that, of course, companies probably don't want shared.

确实。我收到很多公司发来的'关爱邮件'。而我的回应始终是：如果我有误，请务必具体指出错在哪里。

Sure. Yeah. I get a lot I get a lot of what I call love mail from companies. And, you know, my answer is always the same. If I'm wrong, please please let me know how I'm wrong exactly.

我很乐意发布任何你想发的内容。但奇怪的是，至今还没有人、真的没人要求我发布过任何东西。

I'm happy to post anything you want. And surprisingly, no one, no one's asked me to post anything yet.

所以你可以在candor.co/newsletter注册。页面描述写着这是为顶尖科技从业者准备的通讯，每周揭秘招聘动态、最热门团队动向、行业人事变动，消息直接来自科技界顶级薪酬谈判专家。旁边还配了你的照片——这也是你辨识度高的原因之一。不过说真的，我读你的通讯时发现，部分内容非常个人化。比如开篇会聊你的生活近况，但更多内容就像行业八卦。

So So you can sign up at candor.co/newsletter. And when you go there, the description is like the newsletter for top tech professionals, the weekly scoop on who's hiring, which teams are the hottest, and who's on the move directly from tech's top salary negotiator. And there's a picture of you right next to it, part of why you're so recognizable. But yeah, when I read your newsletter, mean like part of it is super personal. Like you talk about your life in the intro, you talk about what's going on with you, but a lot of it is like really gossipy.

就像你提到的RSU抛售潮。扎克伯格2021年每周抛售股票累计达45亿美元，其他正在执行抛售计划的名人还包括贝索斯、布林和佩奇。你在分析这些家喻户晓的公司和人物的动向。不知为何，作为读者我特别能产生共鸣。

Like you were saying RSU sales are up. Zuckerberg sales weekly shares for $4,500,000,000 so far in 2021. Know others who are on stage selling plans include Jeff Bezos, Sergey Brin, Larry Page. You're talking about what these very recognizable companies and names are doing. And for some reason as a reader, that just clicks with me.

我会想：哇，我得知道他们在做什么，因为这可能暗示我该怎么做。然后又会好奇：Nia到底是怎么知道这些内幕的？

I'm like, oh, I want to know what they're doing because maybe that informs what I should be doing. And then I'm like, how does Nia even know what they're doing?

这么说吧，我在银行业曾组建并领导过一支团队，本质上是业内顶尖的竞争情报团队。所以我对获取优质八卦很有经验，而且乐在其中。我认为企业有很多我们不常看到的侧面，而人们往往把公司想得太单一。

Well, I mean, I should probably say, like, I I built and led a team in banking that was essentially one of the top competitive intelligence teams in the industry. So I have a lot of experience in getting the good gossip. And I really enjoy it. I think there's an angle to companies we don't often get to see. And a lot of times we think of companies as one dimensional.

大家总把公司等同于他们开发的产品，但远不止如此。我希望通过写作让人们理解，产品和人才如何共同影响市值波动，为什么会出现特定走势——相比日常盲目猜测某家公司是否值得加入，我的文章应该能揭开不少谜团。

We think of companies as the product they're building. There's a lot more than that. And I really hope that in my writing, people understand how the product and the people together end up informing the market price and how things how things move and why they move a certain way, hopefully is less of a mystery in my writing than I think it is just kind of day to day trying to figure out if it's a good idea to join a company or not.

今年早些时候你跟我提过你的通讯，说它像病毒般传播。虽然不清楚具体增速，但我当时做了笔记——我和任何人交谈都会记录。翻看笔记就写着：病毒式传播的通讯。

Earlier this year, you told me about your newsletter. You said it was, like, a super viral. I don't know how fast it was growing, but I I I took notes. I take notes whenever I talk to somebody. Like, reading through my notes, it's like, a viral newsletter.

你说打开率高达65%，所有八卦都在那里爆发。你觉得是什么让它如此具有传播力？毕竟很多人都梦想拥有真正有人阅读的通讯，但说实话大多数我订阅的——即便有用——也不具备传染性，我根本不想转发分享。

You had a 65% open rate, and that's where you spill all the gossip. What do you think it is about the newsletter that makes it so viral? Because a lot of people would love to have a newsletter that people actually read. But, like, frankly, most newsletters that I read, even if they're useful, they're not that viral. Like, I don't wanna share them with people.

我甚至不会主动和人讨论它们，更别提70%的打开率了。你的通讯究竟有什么特别之处？

I don't wanna talk to other people about it. They certainly don't have 70% open rates. What's special about your newsletter?

我认为有两点：首先它提供独家信息，具有不可替代性；其次它解构公司的方式在其他地方完全看不到。虽然像The Verge、Protocol这些我崇拜的媒体常有精彩报道——其中有些记者既是朋友也是我敬重的前辈——但我的视角依然独特。

Well, I think two things. I think it provides information you can't find anywhere else. I think there's a kind of unique component to it. It also talks about companies in a way that I just don't see broken down anywhere else. I think a lot of times you'll find really amazing reporting in places like The Verge or Protocol, which, you know, I worship those publications, and some of those reporters are both friends and people I look up to.

但它缺少彭博社那种财务层面的深度。或者你会在某个技术论坛的角落里发现些零碎信息。要知道，Reddit上有些人要么是盲目跟风，要么就是随便扯淡，他们根本不了解这些信息对股票影响的完整背景。对我而言，这些因素不是割裂的，它们相互关联，同时理解所有这些因素至关重要。

But it's lacking the financial aspect that, you know, Bloomberg would have. Or you'll find something on a tech forum hidden somewhere. You know, some people on Reddit are blind or just shooting the shit, but, like, they don't have the full context of how that affects the stock. And for me, those things, like, don't live separately. They live together, and it's really important to understand all of those things at the same time.

显然，由于我们为客户大量研究企业，我也能理解公司运作机制。我认为这份简报能病毒式传播，首先在于它的坦诚，其次在于信息的独特性——你能一次性获得全景视角。它就像是你必须阅读的、能提供完整认知的那份材料，无需再四处挖掘。第三点，我认为简报的意图非常明确。

I also obviously have access to understanding how companies work by virtue of we research companies a ton for our client. And so I think what makes it viral is first how honest it is, and second, how unique the information is that you get at one. It almost feels like that's the one thing you have to read that informs you and gives you a full perspective. You don't have to keep digging on other things. And I think the third thing is, I think the intention of the newsletter is really clear.

这个意图是创造更平等的信息环境。人们之所以共鸣，是因为我们真正践行这个理念——从不会因可能让某人难堪而扣发报道。非常明确的是，即便是负面信息我们也会发布，因为整个社群都需要知情。人们能感受到这份真诚。

The intention is to kind of create more equity of information. And I think people really resonate with that message because, you know, live true to that message. We don't, I don't not publish something because it's going to make somebody look bad. It's very, very clear that if there's information that's bad, I'm still going to publish it because everyone in the community needs to know. I think people realize that's genuine.

当然，写这份简报并不总能得到企业的积极回应。有过这样的情况：公司CEO亲自联系，高层人士转发报道。有次我们披露多位副总裁离职时，某上市公司CEO甚至都还不知情。他们质问我：'你从哪搞到这些？凭什么发布？'

And, you know, I don't always get the best response from companies for writing this newsletter. And there are situations where we've had, you know, company CEOs reach out and, you know, very senior people get forwarded on it. There was a case when we announced a bunch of VP resignations before the CEO of a public company even knew that were happening. And so they reached out and were were like, how the hell do you know? And why the hell are you publishing it?

我当时就说，这个嘛

And I was like, well

是啊。

Yeah.

嗨，虽然压力很大，但事实就是事实。所以我不会撤稿。

Hi. Very intimidating, but hi. And like, if it's true, it's true. So I'm not gonna take it down.

这实在太棒了。仔细想想，很多内容涉及'八卦'这个词——未必是坏事。八卦常带贬义，但我读过很多进化心理学著作，它们都谈论八卦，因为人类本质就是八卦生物。约80%的人类交流都在谈论不在场的人，而且85%的八卦其实中性或积极。

So It's super good. And it's, you know, when I think about it, I think a lot of it is like this word gossip, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Like gossip has this bad connotation, I but read a lot of evolutionary psychology books, and they all talk about gossip because, like, we're extremely gossipy creatures. Something like 80% of all human communication is talking about other people who aren't in the room. And also something like 85% of gossip is, like, either neutral or positive.

八卦不总是负面，多数时候很有用。作为个体，了解所谓'部落'里其他人的动态非常实用。想象原始部落时期，最擅长八卦的部落往往最高效——大家都知道约瑟夫擅长投矛，某某善于烹饪。

It's not always negative. It's mostly just, like, useful. And I think it's very useful as a person to know what other people in your, quote, unquote, tribe are doing. You know? Like, if you can imagine, like, a bunch of different human tribes all out in the wilderness, the tribes where the people gossip the most were probably the most efficient, like, well put together tribes where everybody knew, like, oh, Joseph is really good with a spear or, you know, so and so is really good at cooking.

大家都清楚该信任谁、防备谁，因此团队协作更顺畅。

And everyone kinda knew who to trust and who not to trust and so they could function better as a team.

所以我认为

So I think

某种程度上，你通过新闻简报构建的框架——向科技圈所有人传递高管动向和公司动态——本质上是在提供实用信息，帮助人们做出更优、更高效的决策。可以说，你通过公开那些人们可能不愿外传的信息，让整个行业运转得更高效了。

kind of the structure of, like, what you're doing through a newsletter where you're, like, kind of telling everyone in tech, here's what these execs are doing, here's what these companies are doing. It's just providing useful information so everybody can make better decisions and actually, I guess, more efficient decisions. In a way, like, you're making this whole industry more efficient by providing information that people might not want to be out there.

是的。但信息自有其生命力，对吧？没人能真正占有信息。大公司常陷入能操控舆论的错觉，虽然过去他们确实成功过。

Yeah. But, I mean, information has a life of its own. Right? Like, nobody owns information. And I think a lot of times, like big companies are under the fallacy of like, they can control the narrative and sometimes, you know, they've been successful in doing that in the past.

但现实是，无论我是否撰写这份简报，人们依然会讨论这些事。这里不过是把那些众所周知却无人挑明的话题摊开来说。而且我讨论的甚至算不上争议性观点——任何科技从业者待久了都知道，这些就是他们公司的真实状况，只是首次被泄露到外界。我们过去只在内部才能接触到这些。

But in reality, whether I'm writing this newsletter or not, people are still going to talk about it. So this is kind of the place where those things that no one you know, everyone's talking about and everyone knows, I just kind of air it out. So I'm also just not talking about things that are just, you know, I wouldn't even say they're they're considered controversial takes because if you spend enough time with tech people, you know, that's exactly what's going on in the company they work on. It's just more so like, for the first time, it's leaking outside of the company. Like we're used to only experiencing that when we're inside.

我认为信息不透明是种巨大伤害。在入职前，你理应知道真实情况：那里是否能让你发挥最佳水平？什么样的人能真正推动公司发展？比如今天如果我要应聘推特的产品经理，作为消费者PM我会狂喜，因为广告变现正是他们亟待解决的核心难题。我需要知道这些。

I think that's a great disservice because before you go to work somewhere, I think you're entitled to know what it's actually like, and wherever that's the place you're going to do your best work, or what kind of people like would be really, really successful in helping make the place bigger and better. You know, for instance, if I was going to like, go apply for Twitter today, and I was a consumer PM, I would be like overjoyed because that's one of the biggest challenges they need to solve. Right? So they need to figure out how to make money from that ad. And I would wanna know that.

但如果我的岗位像第九事业部那样是公司最边缘的存在，我绝不会考虑加入。

I would not wanna join there if I was like ninth middle or something, and my job would be the least priority for the whole company.

确实。

Right.

我想加入核心战场。我需要清楚自己的能见度，股东在关注什么，高管对我的期待是什么。

I wanna join the hot feet. Like, I wanna know where I'm gonna be visible, and what are, you know, shareholders looking for, and therefore what are executives looking for from me.

信息透明会让一切变得更好。当企业意识到所有行为都可能公之于众时——无论是登上Hacker News头条还是成为Candor简报的标题——这种压力会倒逼他们规范运作。这种对称性也很妙：员工需要了解雇主，雇主同样需要了解员工。

I think it makes everything better for information to be transparent. Because if you live in a world where it's likely that anything that you do as a company is going to become public information, that's a pretty strong incentive to do things well. Because you might be on the front page of Hacker News or whatever, know, or, like, you know, the subject line of the Candor newsletter because you didn't do things well. And so it incentivizes people, I think, to be better. And I like the the symmetry too because, like, as an employee, like, come your employees wanna know about you.

就像雇主会要求简历、做背景调查，员工发错推文可能被解雇一样，雇主也该知晓员工的真实状况。

Like, you have to give them a resume. They They might look into your background. Like, if you tweet the wrong thing, you might be fired. So, like, you probably wanna know what's going on with them as well.

这有点疯狂。我从未想过会有这么多人阅读它。所以这是另一个例子，说明我并不太适应成为最受公众关注的人，但事情就这么发生了。你知道，我不会被当作某人的知己，但我认识的一位为《信息》撰稿的朋友告诉我，我们的订阅用户数已经正式超过了《信息》。现在我就在想，天哪。

And it's kinda crazy. Like, I never intended for this many people to read it. So it's kind of one of the other examples of, like, I'm not super comfortable with being, like, the most public person, but it just kind of happened. You know, I won't be treated as person's confidence, but somebody I know who writes for the information told me we officially have worse subscribers than the information. And so now I'm like, oh my god.

我真的很害怕。从某些方面来说，我想确保这些信息继续保持有用性，也想更了解读者是谁。所以我们也会组织活动让大家互相认识，比如桌游之夜，还计划在一月份举办一场《万智牌》锦标赛。

I'm really scared. I you know, from the aspect of, like, I wanna make sure the information continues to be useful, and I wanna understand more who the readers are. So we also, like, get to know people. We do board game night. We're doing, like, a Magic the Gathering tournament in January.

我们还有Zoom通话让大家互相了解。所以这不仅仅是把内容发送给一群陌生人。当人们聚在一起社交，从彼此身上获得价值时，我觉得这正是它走红的重要原因——人们觉得这是为他们这样的人量身定制的。当他们线下见面时，看到其他读者的真实身份，那种感觉真的非常震撼。

We have, like, Zoom calls where people get to know each other. So it's not just, like, I'm sending this to a list of random people. Like, if people come together and they, like, socialize with each other, get value out of the two. And I think that's a big part of why it's viral too is, like, people feel like it's for others exactly like them. When they meet these people in person, it's actually super powerful when you see who the other readers are.

所以我认为他们非常享受彼此相识的过程。对我来说最棒的部分就是能在现实生活中把人们联系起来。

So I think they super enjoy meeting each other. That's been the best part for me is, like, connecting people in real life.

是啊。你正在围绕所有内容构建一个社区。这不仅仅是你的新闻简报，也不只是你参与的播客节目。

Yeah. Yeah. You're building a community around all your content. It's not just your newsletter. It's not just your podcast appearances.

你网站上还有专门的指南板块，包括薪资谈判指南、绩效评估指南、如何辞职指南、如何应对裁员指南、如何在家工作指南，或是如何最大化利用限制性股票单元（RSU）的指南。这些如何与你当前的使命相结合？正如你所说，Candor的第一年几乎完全专注于薪资谈判，而现在更多是关于RSU管理。

You've got another section on your website that's just guides. And you have a guide to salary negotiation, a guide to performance reviews, a guide to how to quit, how to survive a layoff, or how to work from home, or how to get more from your RSUs. How does all of this feed into, like, your mission today? Because as you said, like, the first year of candor was, like, pretty much just all about salary negotiation. Nowadays, it's more about RSU management.

这些内容是如何协同作用的？

Like, how does all of this play together?

我认为过去二十年职业生涯发生了巨大变化。我们的父母辈多是医生或律师——当然这是指那些父母从事这些职业的人，虽然我并非如此——但那些曾是主流职业。如果你成为医生或律师，你会获得大量现金报酬，然后会有投资顾问帮你打理这些钱。

I think careers have changed substantially in the last twenty years. Right? Our parents were doctors and lawyers, for those of us, you know, that had parents that were doctors and lawyers, which, you know, I'm not part of, but that was where the those were the big professions. Right? So if you, if you were a doctor or a lawyer, you got paid cash, it was a lot of cash, you then got an investment advisor who helps you pull this cash somewhere.

这就是全部了，构成你生活中复杂性的起点和终点无非是：能否进入好学校获得这些职业资格。但过去二十年情况彻底改变了，现在选择工作本身就是一种投资，而我们尚未形成足够的体系来帮助人们做出真正尊重职业承诺的决策。

And that was it. That's the kind of beginning and end of complexity of life for you. Can I make it into a good school to get into those professions? But things have really changed in the last twenty years. And now picking a job is in itself an investment, and we have not evolved sufficiently to be able to help people do that in a way that is, you know, really honoring the commitment a person is taking when they take a job.

无论你是为Snapchat、Facebook、Google还是初创公司工作，如果超过50%的收入将来自股权，这对你都有重大财务影响。如果是高管，这个比例可能达到70%甚至80%。我有客户账面收入30万美元，却能获得400万到500万美元的RSU。在做出这种重大决策时，目前根本没有人能为你提供专业支持，对吧？

Whether you're going to work for Snapchat or Facebook or Google or a startup have massive financial implications for you if over 50% of your income is going to come from equity. And if you're senior, it could be 70, it could be 80%. I have clients that make, you know, dollars 300 ks on paper and get like 4 or $5,000,000 in RSUs. If that is how you, nobody's supporting you in making that decision right now. Right?

因此对我来说，这两件事实际上是紧密相连的，因为新型银行业2.0时代的财富管理初创公司会帮你规划职业。它并非始于你套现的那一刻，也不是等到你资产流动性足够吸引各方业务时才启动。选择职业、理解该职业、知道如何经营它、何时跳槽、何时投资、何时将既得股权另作他用、何时再投资——比如你在做什么？这些都是相互关联的。

And so for me, two things are actually very connected because the new like banking two point zero is the wealth management starts would help you pick a career. It doesn't start with the moment that you cash out. It doesn't start with the moment where you're liquid enough for everyone to want your business. Picking a career, understanding that career, knowing what to do with it, when to move to another company, when to invest, when to use your vested stock for something else, when to reinvest it, like what are you doing? Those are all interrelated.

如今任何银行业从业者若不将职业规划与财富管理结合思考，那绝对是疯了，未来十年必将被淘汰。这就是Candra背后的使命，也是我们提供众多指南的原因。人们常问：既然你们要帮我管理资产，为什么还教我怎么辞职？——因为说不定街对面公司能给你更多股权。去看看现在的薪资水平吧，你很可能该跳槽了。

And anyone in banking today who is not thinking about managing careers and money together is absolutely crazy and will be phased out in the next ten years. So that's kind of the mission behind Candra. That's why there's so many guides. People like, why are you telling me how to quit my job if you're trying to Well, manage my because you could probably make a lot more equity across the street. Go ahead and look at the salaries currently, you probably should move.

这就是操作方法，这就是赚钱之道。而银行业在这方面落后了八个球——如果你去问财富顾问或银行家'我要去Netflix工作了，该注意什么？'，他们大概会说'想开个支票账户还是储蓄账户？'

And here's how to do it. And here's how to make more money. And banking is so far behind on the eighth ball on that. Like if you go to your wealth advisor or your banker and you're like, hey, I'm about to work for Netflix, what should I know? They'd be like, well, do you wanna open a check-in counter or say there's a cow?

他们根本不会告诉你。他们

Like, they're not gonna tell you. They're

会帮你的

gonna help you.

他们不会帮——即便你掌握所有事实，他们也不会帮忙。所以在Candra出现前，通常能负担得起的人会雇佣律师，硅谷只有五六个人真正精通科技公司薪酬谈判，主要服务高管阶层。收费极高，每小时700到8100美元不等。有时还得雇会计师，因为高层入职前会拿到公司财务报表，需要判断股权价值。

They're not gonna and even if you come with all the facts, they're not gonna help you. So usually what people, you know, did before candor is people who could afford to would hire an attorney, and there's five or six people in the Valley that are really known for tech compensation and mostly do executives. Very expensive, between $708,100 dollars an hour. Sometimes you have to hire an accountant because if you're more senior, you actually get the financials of the company before you take a job. So you have to see if your equity will be worth something.

有人会聘请CEO教练或普通教练（即便不是CEO），以便进行更激烈的薪酬谈判。这些顾问彼此从不沟通，费用却高得离谱。

Sometimes people hire like a CEO coach or just a coach, even if they're not a CEO, so they can actually go for a more intensive negotiation. And none of these people talk to each other and it's bizarrely expensive.

确实

Right.

我认为这太混乱了。这些服务应该整合进银行业务，任何帮你做财务决策的人都必须首先了解你的财富来源。

And I think that's messed up. I think that should be rolled into your banking, and whoever is going to help you make financial decisions needs to understand where your money came from to begin with.

这是否意味着求职者的终极理想就是成为银行？

Does that mean a candidate's greatest ambition is to be a bank?

我想说，最终我们或许能成为下一个高盛，但我觉得摩根士丹利可能是个更贴切的例子。

I would say, you know, eventually we could be the next Goldman Sachs, but I feel like Morgan Stanley is probably a bit of a better example.

摩根士丹利。好吧。

Morgan Stanley. Okay.

你会是

You'll be

下一个摩根士丹利。你们如何从现状实现这个目标？我们甚至还没讨论你们的商业模式，比如Candor目前如何盈利。当然，当然。

the next Morgan Stanley. How do get from where you are today? And we haven't even talked about your business model, like how Candor makes money today. Sure. Sure.

具体是什么？要成为下一个摩根士丹利需要采取哪些步骤？

What is that, and, like, what are the steps you need to follow to become the next Morgan Stanley?

我可不会提供路线图——以防你在寻找创业点子——但我会告诉你

I'm not gonna give you the road map in case you're looking for for for a thing to do, but I'll I'll tell

我们现在需要什么。我的竞争对手。哦对，非常优秀的竞争对手。把你的计划一五一十告诉我。

you what we need now. My competitor. Oh, yeah. Very good competitor. Tell me exactly your plans.

没错。

Yeah.

本质上，我们目前帮助那些获得上市公司RSU薪酬的人提前兑现这些股票。即使在禁售期或非交易时段，我们也能协助客户操作股票，这极大帮助降低波动性，实现更好的资产多元化配置，减少集中风险和市场风险——这些都是科技从业者面临的问题，即便公司从未告知你们（这也是我希望改变的世界：企业应该把薪酬解释为投资而非'白送的钱'）。我们帮助客户理解如何管理RSU、如何变现、如何有效分散投资，并将这些流程自动化——若手动操作会非常荒谬。这就是我们当前的业务。

Essentially, we do now is we help people who get paid in RSUs, a public company, get access to those RSUs. So we help people get liquidity even during blackout or, you know, even outside of trading periods, we can help people act with their stock, which significantly helps reduce volatility, get to a better position with diversification, reduce concentration risk and reduce market risk, which you all fall as a tech employee, even if your company has not told you about that, which is another big thing I'd love there to be changing the world is for companies to explain your compensation as an investment and not just as a like, here's some free money. So we help people, realize how to manage their RSUs, how to get liquidity out of them, diversify them really well, and we sort of automate all of that process for you, which would be ridiculous if you were doing manually. That's what we do today.

为听众解释几个术语：比如禁售期就像你在Salesforce工作，当公司即将发布财报时，法律上禁止员工在一定期限内出售股票。这种情况每个季度都会发生，对吧？

Just to sort of explain some terminology to listeners, like a blackout period might be if you work at Salesforce and they're going to have, I don't know, an earnings call coming up, they're like, you're legally not allowed as an employee, I think, to sell for a certain period. And that happens, like, every quarter. Right?

实际情况要比这更复杂些。对大多数公司而言，员工通常每季度只能出售一次股票。即便没有特殊事件，科技公司普遍将员工视为内部人士——这源于八十年代股票丑闻后形成的惯例，当时所有普通员工都被划为内部人士。因此你通常只能在财报电话会议后的窗口期出售股票。

It's a little bit more intense than that. So for most companies, you could only sell usually once in a quarter. So during even if there's no nothing special going on, most tech companies consider our employees insiders. And that's a vestige of the stock scandals essentially in the eighties when we made everybody an insider, even if they're a regular employee. And so you can only sell typically only during, an earnings call right after.

巧合的是，这恰恰是股价波动最剧烈的时段。财报电话会披露的业绩信息可能导致股价剧烈震荡——无论公司表现好坏。与其每三个月集中抛售一次，我们帮助客户制定周度渐进出售计划。您只需完成设置，就能逐步减持限制性股票。

It just so happened that it's also the most volatile time for the stock because earnings calls usually introduce performance information. Company might not have done well or might have done really well. The price is going to fluctuate the most either way right after an earnings call. So instead of waiting like once every three months to sell, we help people sell gradually on a like weekly basis. You come in, we'll set you up on a stage selling plan and you could gradually sell your RSU.

这样做的好处在于：首先，长期分批出售能获得更优均价；其次，集中持有单一股票风险极高。理财顾问通常建议单一资产配置不超过10%，而Multech员工50%以上财富都集中在公司股票。必须尽快分散投资到其他潜力资产，绝不能将所有财富押注在一支股票上——即便你认为已做到最好。

That's better because first you're going to get a better average price if you sell over a longer period of time versus just dump whenever you're allowed to. The second reason why it's better is because it's incredibly, incredibly dangerous to hold this much market risk in your portfolio. So most investor advisors recommend not having more than 10% in any asset. Multech employees have more than 50% of all of their wealth in RSUs. So you need to divest yourself of that as fast as possible and diversify it in things you think will perform similarly well or better or things that you believe in, but you cannot have all of your wealth in one stock and still, you know, feel like you're doing the best that you can.

我们被灌输的观念是：将所有财富投入公司股票才是好员工，才是忠诚表现，这才是致富之道。但讽刺的是，马克·扎克伯格等科技高管都在减持股票——因为集中持股本就不是最优策略。当最坚定的信徒都在分散风险时，为何不告知普通员工他们也有这个选择权？这实在荒谬。

You can essentially we're conditioned to believe that having all of our wealth in this one stock makes us a good employee, makes us loyal to the company, makes us, you know, this is what you're supposed to do. This is how people got rich. But on the other hand, you're saying people like Mark Veckeberg and basically every tech executive sell their stock because that's not the optimal position. So the biggest believers are divesting because of that, you know, what you're supposed to be doing, then, why are we not telling employees they even have the option to do that? Which is pretty crazy.

创始人与员工的处境天差地别。作为万人员工中的普通工程师，你日常决策影响股价的概率微乎其微。但如果你是扎克伯格这样的掌舵者，将大部分净资产与企业绑定就合理得多——毕竟你的重大决策确实能左右公司命运。

And it's so different being a founder and an employee. You know? Like, you could be loyal to the company and be a good employee, but, like, if you're working at, like, a 10,000 person company, like, as an engineer, what are the chances that the individual decisions that you make day to day are going to move the stock price? Not that much. If you're the founder and you're Mark Zuckerberg, you're running the ship, of course, it makes more sense to be more aligned, to have a higher percentage of your net worth and your own business, etcetera, because you're making these huge decisions and, like, you know, that actually affect things.

本节目很多听众是独立开发者或创业者，他们公司成功时自然会有大量净资产体现在股权中。

And so I think a lot of people listening to this show, like, they're indie hackers. They're founders. They're starting companies. You know, the similar companies do well. A huge percentage of their net worth is going to be in the equity for their company.

但如果你是边工作边创业的职场人（这类听众也不少），正如你所说，将50%以上净资产押注雇主股票绝非明智之举。

But if you're an employee, which also a lot of people listen to this show are employees, like working on businesses on the side, you probably don't want, like, as you said, 50% or more of your net worth and your employer's stock.

没错。科技股具有特殊属性——多数被视为成长股，而成长股往往伴随更高波动性。

Yeah. I mean, tech stocks have a particular property. Most of them are considered to be growth stocks. Right? And growth stocks are subject to higher volatility.

波动性意味着股价起伏更大。当股价处于低谷时，你将失去复利机会——这正是投资盈利的核心机制。若股票多次探底，很可能吞噬全部涨幅。

And volatility just means that the stock fluctuates more. So sometimes it's high, sometimes it's low, but it's just more frequently high or low than you know, the average market. And anytime it's low, you lose the ability to compound your earnings. That's essentially how you make money with investment, this compounding. So if your stock has been low three or four times, that's enough in some cases to erase any of the growth that you might have seen.

即便公司表现优异，分散投资组合往往能带来同等收益且风险更低。科技公司在授予股票时很少告知这两个关键点：复利效应与波动风险。高管们减持股票的根本原因正是：A)降低集中度 B)转向波动性更低的投资。

Even if the company does super well, you could have actually done better in many cases or just the same with much less risk in a better diversified portfolio. And this compounding aspect and volatility aspect is what most of the time tech companies don't really inform you of when they first pay you stock. They tell you like the stock is going to go up. Yes, but the road it took to go up is very, very important to ultimately how much money you're going to make or lose in your company. And that's the biggest reason why senior people end up selling part of their stock is A) so they are not as concentrated and B) because they're diversifying into investment that have lower volatility.

这一点在通胀时期尤为重要。历史上我们曾多次经历通胀，而成长股，尤其是科技股，在通胀期间表现往往大幅落后。尽管过去五年科技股持续上涨，我们已习惯看涨行情，但历史数据和表现表明，通胀环境下这种趋势并无保障。若你被套牢且无法在财报电话会议前抛售，就只能眼睁睁看着股价快速下跌而无能为力。

And this is especially important in inflation. So historically, we've seen, you know, many periods of inflation before and growth stocks, especially in IT, underperform inflation by a ton. And while tech have been going up and up and up for the last, you know, five years, we're all accustomed to seeing the upwards movement. There's no guarantee that's going to hold an inflation, especially considering the historical data and performance. And if you're trapped and not being able to sell your stock until our earnings call, you could just be sitting by the sidelines watching it, you know, basically go down very fast without being able to do anything.

对某些风险承受能力较高、选择全仓持有的人，我表示理解和尊重。但人们理应拥有选择权，理应知晓利弊——如果继续持有会怎样？

So for some people, they still have the high risk tolerance, and they want to keep all of it. And I respect that and I understand it. But I think people are entitled to a choice. I think people are entitled to have the information of pros and cons. What if I keep it?

如果抛售呢？全仓持有会如何？全部清仓又如何？部分减持又将怎样？各种可能性都需要探讨。

What if I sell it? What if I keep all of it? What if I sell all of it? What if it's just some part of it? What happened?

当前科技金融领域缺失的正是这类深度对话。现在人们接收的信息非黑即白——要么全留要么全抛，这两种方案都不完美，因为从未有人解释股价波动的底层逻辑。投资者完全有能力自主决策，他们需要的只是充分的信息披露。

And those conversations are what we're missing in the discourse and tech and banking right now. We're telling people that like, either keep it all or sell it all, and these are both not perfect solutions because we're, you're not telling people the underlying reason of how the stock is affected in either direction. People are smart enough to decide for themselves. You just need to give them the information.

听你讲述创业经历时，一切似乎都顺风顺水。比如推出简报就大获成功，建立用户名单也轻而易举？

What is the most like talking to you about your story, it all seems like such smooth sailing. You know? It's like launch a newsletter. Wildly popular. Can I put up this list?

产品大受欢迎，直接打入高盛级别的市场。那运营Candor真正的难点是什么？哪些事让你倍感压力？

Wildly popular. Like, got this product. We're going all the way to Goldman Sachs level. What's the hard part of running Candor? What's got you stressed?

让你夜不能寐的挑战究竟是什么？或者说，你们必须克服的最大困难有哪些？

What's got you working hard? Like, what are the, I guess, biggest challenges that you have to overcome?

换个角度来说说我的隐忧吧。主要纠结两点：首先是科技从业者对金融原理的认知度是否足以快速理解我们的产品。毕竟我们开发的是非常复杂的产品，对吧？

Maybe a different angle. Let me kind of tell you what keeps me awake at night. So I think there's two things that I really think about a lot. One thing that I think about a lot is whether or not there's sufficient awareness of how finance works broadly in tech for people to to understand the product really quickly. So we have a product that is very complicated, right?

用户需要先理解投资原理、股票机制、通胀影响等知识才能使用产品。虽然我们现在做得不错，但问题在于这需要全社会共同努力——不仅是Candor的责任，更是整个行业的课题。

So people need to understand how investments work, how stocks work, how inflation works, all of these things before they purchase the product. And we do a really great job of it now. But the problem is, we need to societally do a really great job at it. Like it's not just a candor problem. It's an industry problem.

有时竞争性利益会加剧这个问题。多数企业希望员工具备金融知识，却缺乏培训工具——银行和投资机构从不主动普及金融常识。而科技圈的个体讨论仍停留在「我朋友办了X信用卡」「某人做了Y投资」这种口耳相传的层面。由于企业普遍缺失系统的股权知识教育，整个行业至今未能建立起体系化的认知基础。

And sometimes this problem is exacerbated by competing incentives. Most companies really want their employees to be educated and want employees to have that information, but lack the tools to do it because banks and investment firms, they don't really come in and give you education on how any of this works. However, the discourse in tech on the individual level is very much like my friend fed X, I card some other person did Y. And we're still in the kind of word-of-mouth mentality because companies are not coming out and educating people broadly on how stock works. And as an industry, we don't really have yet concentrated knowledge based on how this works.

一切都显得非常新鲜，人们仍在依赖口口相传。所以我花了很多时间思考这个问题，科技从业者需要将他们的投资视为一项需要审慎对待的投资，而不仅仅是，你知道的，把这当作免费的钱——升值了固然好，没升值也无所谓。我们已经过了那个阶段。我们的薪酬中有太多是不平等的，不能把这不当作投资来看待。

Everything feels very new And people are still relying on word-of-mouth. So the thing that, you know, I spent a lot of time thinking about it, what needs to invest for people in tech to see their stopping an investment and not just as, you know, this is free money and if it appreciates, great. If it doesn't appreciate, that's fine too. We're past that point. Too much of our pay is inequity to not look at this as an investment.

第二件让我夜不能寐的事是通货膨胀。我认为很少有人意识到通胀来袭的速度能有多快。我年轻时经历过通胀，那时通胀率高达300%。最近公布的CPI数据显示，通胀率正以7%或6.8%左右的速度增长。

The second thing that keeps me awake at night is inflation. I think very few people realize how fast inflation can hit. I remember inflation from my youth. It was for 300% when I was growing up. Growing at a, you know, 7% or 6.8 clip or something, when it was the last reporting of the CPI.

通胀能让很多事情在极短时间内发生剧变，尤其是成长型股票。所以我担心的是，在人们真正开始被生活压垮之前，我们能否让足够多的人获得可维持生计的条件？我认为帮助人们理解通胀机制及其影响是一种社会责任。但对许多人来说，这仍然是个模糊的概念。因此我们做了大量关于通胀的宣讲，试图让社区了解现有资源和相关研究成果。

And inflation can make a lot of things happen very, very fast, especially in growth stock. So it worries me, like, will we be able to get to enough people and livability before, you know, people actually start being lofted? I see it as a social responsibility to help people understand how inflation works and how it could affect them. And it feels still very nebulous to a lot of people. So we've been doing a lot of calls around inflation and trying to get the community to see what resources exist or what research is out there.

这就是我思考的两件事。这不是单靠一家公司能解决的问题。尽管我热爱我的公司并认为它代表未来，但我知道只有多家公司共同努力才能见效，对吧？所以我希望有更多竞争者加入Candor的行列，因为这意味着更广泛的社会认知——这不是件时髦的事。

So those are the two things I think about. And this is not a problem one company is going to solve. As much as I love my company and I think my company is the future, I know that this only works if multiple companies are doing it, right? And so I would like to have more competition running Candor because that means that there's more awareness broadly. It's not a cool thing.

这是件重要的事。两者有本质区别，对吧？

It's an important thing. And there's a really big distinction. Right?

我同意你的观点。这是值得倾注热情的事业。我很喜欢和你这样真正意识到自身影响力的创始人交流。当你能自信地说希望出现更多竞争者，因为你考虑的是全局时，这本身就是最好的证明。关于这个挑战，我也深有同感。

I agree with you. It's something to be passionate about. And I love talking to founders like you who actually are aware of the impact that you're having. And, like, when you can confidently say you want there to be more competitors because you're thinking about the bigger picture, like, that's just sort of proof positive. And I agree with you about the challenge.

如果要我猜Candor面临的最大挑战，我会说是教育环节。因为在Indie Hackers我们也在做教育。帮助人们学习确实很难，非常难。有太多信息需要人们消化吸收。

Like, if I had to guess the most difficult challenge for Candor, would say it's the education piece. Cause in indie hackers we're also doing education. And like it is hard to help people learn. It's very hard. There's a lot of information for people to digest.

这些知识往往不是一目了然的。人们需要花费大量时间和耐心来学习这类内容。我认为教育就是那种小范围效果更好，但难以规模化的事情——比如10人的线下讨论或100人的网络研讨会，其影响力远超过1万人阅读博客文章。但这样覆盖的人群又有限。

It's not always immediately obvious. It takes a lot of patience and time for people to learn these types of things. And I think education is one of those things where like it's just more effective in small groups, which makes it harder to reach scale with education. Like you can have 10 people in a room or 100 people on a webinar and reach them much more impactfully than, you know, 10,000 people reading a blog post, for example. But then you're not reaching as many people.

所以教育确实超级困难，但看到你们的实践方式很酷——你们通过各种形式让教育资源变得有趣、有料又实用。同样地，我真的很感谢你。

And so I think education is super difficult, but it's cool to watch how you're doing it and all the different ways that you're making the sort of educational resources, like, really entertaining and fun and gossipy and useful at the And same I am really Thank you.

非常感谢。关于教育我还想最后补充一点，因为我经常思考：有时候帮助人们学习新知识，比帮他们先破除旧观念再学习更容易。我认为挑战在于，我们过去给人们灌输的观念是投资就像冲动消费那样简单——你可以在Robinhood上一秒买入下一秒卖出。但投机与投资有本质区别，建立传承与仅仅获取财富（这些财富若能充分积累，不仅能支撑你，还能惠及周围社区）也有天壤之别。

I really appreciate it. I think one last note on on education because it's something I I think about a ton is, like, sometimes it's it's easier to help people learn than to help people unlearn and then learn. And I think that the challenge is we've taught people that investment is like an impulse decision that it's really easy. You could buy something on Robinhood at like one second, you could trade it back. And there's a really big difference between speculation and investment and a really big difference between building a legacy and something that like, can not just power you, but power the community around you if you build sufficient wealth.

因此我认为教育和所有从事消费金融科技工作的人面临的挑战是，如何让人们明白从长远来看负责任的行为实际上会带来更多回报？看似简单的事情未必有利可图，看似有利可图的事情也未必简单。所以‘忘记以重新学习’是困难的——因为金融科技行业建造了太多基础设施，我们整个行业似乎已经忘记，归根结底这会影响真实人群，影响他们的资产负债表，影响他们购买食品杂货等最基本生活开支的能力。你必须教会人们这不只是像Robinhood那样的投资游戏，而是要真正考虑你的孩子、家人、父母，并弄清楚你生命中所有这些重要的人——包括你自己——真正需要什么。

And so I think the challenge with education and everyone who's working in consumer FinTech is how do you teach people that responsibility actually pays more in the long run? Things that seem easy aren't always profitable and things that seem profitable aren't always easy. So unlearning to learn is hard because by building so much infrastructure in FinTech, we've forgotten as an industry, I think at the end of the day, it affects real people and it affects real people balance sheet and affects, you know, how much they're going to be able to pay for like groceries and things that are like that are super, super simple. And so you have to teach people that it's not just like Robin hood investing. It's really thinking about your kids, your family, your parents, and figuring out what all of those other people in your life plus you really need.

财富对你而言意味着什么？你为何在意财富？你打算如何运用它？我们需要开展这些更全面、更深层次的金钱对话，这固然更具挑战性。但若我们真心想要实现社区层面的实质性改变，而非仅仅停留在‘金钱很有趣’的肤浅层面，这种讨论就至关重要。

And what does wealth look like for you? And why do you care about wealth at all? And what are you going to do with it? And having these, like, more holistic and deeper conversations about money, and that is harder. But ultimately, it's important if we actually wanna make a meaningful, like, community level change and not just, like, a money is fun change.

是的。

Yeah.

作为创始人，你有什么总结建议？听众中有抱负的或现任创业者，关于如何思考这类问题或经营公司，你会给他们什么建议？

What's your sort of close things out. You know, you're a founder. People listening to this are aspiring founders or already founders. What's your advice to founders for how they should think about this kind of stuff or just running their their companies?

成为创始人后我最深刻的体会是：很庆幸此前拥有行业经验。每天的工作都在印证，这段经历对我的转型至关重要。它让我避免了许多金融科技领域创始人常见的头疼和心痛。所以我的建议是：找到能让你最有安全感和准备最充分的方式。对我而言，就是在该领域深耕并透彻理解它。

The thing that I've appreciated most becoming a founder is that I had industry experience before I did it. Almost every day working has reinforced the fact that doing that first before I founded my company has been like very transformational for me. It has saved me a lot of headache and a lot of heartache that I'm sure of our founders in my field, specifically in FinTech faith. So I think the thing I would recommend for anyone who wants to be a founder is figure out what would make you feel the most secure and prepared. For me, was working in the field and really deeply understanding the field.

对其他人可能是阅读或广泛社交。但千万别仅凭一个好点子就贸然创业。只要公司稍有起色，它就会占据你全部生活——你会为之呼吸、醒来、入睡，它吞噬一切。

For other people, it might be reading something or meeting a ton of people. But don't just go in it on a good idea and hope it's going to work out. If your company is even mildly successful, it takes over all of your life. You're going to live this, breathe this, wake up with it, go to bed with it. It is all consuming.

很多时候你要为交付产品推掉朋友邀约，可能周末加班处理故障，甚至会错过家庭节日。这是场打造更美好事物的全身心远征。你必须确保自己做好准备，因为这段旅程既令人振奋又极度充实——无论成败都将是你生命中最有价值的经历，但它也会耗尽你所有精力。

Many times you will not see friends because you have to ship something. You might have to work weekend because something broke. You probably will miss holidays with your family. It is an all consuming quest to build something better for the world. And so you really, really want to make sure you're prepared for the journey because the journey is incredibly fun and exhilarating and is the most rewarding thing you will ever do in both knowing whether you succeed or fail, but it also will take everything you've got.

所以创业前先去度假，做好充分调研，确保心理和情感上都准备就绪。因为一旦启程就无法回头，创始人没有兼职选项。它注定会占据你全部生命（或许个别人例外）。这就是我的建议：开始旅行前先收拾好行囊。

And so before you start, take a vacation, make sure you've done all of your research where you feel emotionally and mentally prepared Because once you're in it, you can't go out of it. You can't be a part time founder. It is the one thing that will eat all of your life. Maybe for some people it's different. That's kind of my experience, but that's that's my advice is pack your bags before you go traveling.

'启程前收拾好行囊'。Nia Jagovara，非常感谢参与节目。大家在哪里能了解更多关于你在Candor的动态？或许还能订阅你的新闻简报？

Pack your bags before you go traveling. Nia Jagovara, thanks so much for coming on the show. Where can people go to find out more about what you're up to you at Candor, maybe subscribe to your newsletter as well?

当然。我们官网是candor.co，也可以通过LinkedIn联系我——我的名字相当独特，搜索结果显示只有我。有任何问题都欢迎建立联系。

Sure. So we're at candor.co, and you could also find me and connect with me on LinkedIn. I have a fairly unique name, so I'm the only result that popped up. Please connect with me if you any question.

好的。再次感谢你，莉娅。

Alright. Thanks again, Leah.