我们如何创造一场绿色就业革命？

在里希·苏纳克面前，我认为你们可以看到他们试图进行的对话中，他们正努力制造这种分歧，无论是谈论石油和天然气，还是放慢热泵的推广。

In front of Richie Sunak, and I think you see this in the conversation they've tried to have, in that they are trying to do stuff to create that dividing line, whether it's talking about oil and gas, whether it's slowing down the heat pump.

但他们必须不断补充说：但我们从根本上承诺实现净零排放。

But they are having to follow everything up with, but we are fundamentally committed to net zero.

有趣的是，如果你现在去和公众交谈，我上周做了几场焦点小组访谈，公众最常提到的一件事是什么？

And what's interesting is if you speak to the public now, so I ran a load of focus groups last week and what is the one thing that the public come up with?

哦，保守党。

Oh, the Conservative Party.

他们才是想重新恢复化石燃料的政党，不是吗？

They are the ones that want to bring back fossil fuels, don't they?

保守党以为自己传达的信息是关于未来的，但实际上，他们传达的是对未来的谨慎态度。

It is not the message that the Conservative Party thinks it is telling the public that it is about the future, but it's about the cautious approach to the future.

公众开始认为，保守党是代表过去的政党。

The public are beginning to think that the Conservative Party are the party of the past.

玛德琳，在我们进入提问环节之前，我们有一些关于人工智能的问题。

Madeleine, before we go to questions, we've got questions on AI.

我们收到了关于如何实现绿色就业的公正转型的问题，稍后我们会讨论，还有教育等其他领域。

We've had questions on how do we have a just transition to green jobs, which we'll come to, and other areas around education.

但是，马德琳，在我们开始频繁提问之前，请继续保持提问，能听到你的声音也是这场讨论的宝贵部分。

But, Madeleine, before we just come and start peppering in our questions, and do keep your questions coming, it's it's lovely to be able to hear from you as well as part of this discussion.

马德琳，伊贝德罗拉公司已经做到了哪些事情？

Madeleine, what have Iberdrola been able to do?

我们谈到了政策，需要一致性，以及你参与的讨论类型，肖恩，还有你所做的焦点小组工作，萨姆，以了解公众的想法和心态。

We talked a little bit about policy, the need for consistency, the types of discussions, Sean, that you're involved in, Sam, the focus group work that you're doing to see where the public is and the public's mind is.

对于伊贝德罗拉来说，当你们思考我们当前所处的就业转型具体细节时，你们已经做了哪些工作？

For Ipadrola, what have you been able to do when you're thinking about the specifics of how you're thinking about the jobs transition that we're in?

我认为这是一个非常重大的问题。

I think it's a very big question.

意思是，把它拆分成小的方面吗？

Mean, write it down to little areas?

不，当然不是。

No, of course.

我认为，当我们谈论工作时，首先要考虑的是当前所需的岗位。

I think when we think about jobs, you've the jobs that you need right now.

未来当然会有工作岗位，但我们花了很多时间，我的同事们也投入了大量精力，伊比德罗拉也大力支持这一点，那就是如何从学校层面入手，针对那些重返职场的人群以及其他类似群体进行精准定位。

There's definitely the jobs in the future, but where we've been spending a lot of time and I've got colleagues that put a significant amount of their effort into and Iberdrola is a massive supporter of this, it's actually that also future on piece in terms of how do we actually target people from school level, people that are transitioning from that are returners to the workforce, and different areas like that.

因为我们知道，目前在绿色工作岗位上，我们尚未接触到很大比例的劳动力。

Because we need to we know that there's actually a huge proportion workforce that we're not engaging at the moment in green jobs.

明白吗？

Alright?

我认为，STEM相关岗位中，女性的占比大约为28%。

So, you know, I think it's about I think 28% of STEM related roles are filled by women.

对吧？

Okay?

因此，这里存在巨大的性别差距，同时我们也未能充分接触其他代表性不足的群体。

So you've got a huge disparity there and also so and also underrepresented groups that we're not engaging as well.

这些劳动力中，有很大一部分我们尚未有效纳入。

There's huge portions of those workforces that we are not engaging properly.

我们在Iberdrola和苏格兰电力做了大量工作，以思考如何与这些不同群体建立联系。

We do a lot of work at Iberdrola and Scottish Power to actually think about how do we engage those different parts.

他们可能还不到适龄就业的阶段，但我们要开始引导他们思考如何参与STEM领域，能在STEM中做些什么，有哪些机会，并转变思维、提供教育。

It's not necessarily they might not be workforce ready age yet, but starting to get them to think about how they can contribute to STEM, what they can do in STEM, where the opportunities are, and reframing thinking and providing education.

因为我们知道，苏格兰电力有长远的规划和投资计划，远远超出未来几年的范围。

Because we know that, you know, we at Scottish Power, we have plans we have investment plans that go out a lot further than the next few years.

对吧？

Right?

我们知道未来还会有更多发展。

We know that there's a lot more coming in the future.

因此，绿色就业的前景以及这一关键问题对我们而言，并非一夜之间就能解决的。

So the green jobs proposition and that that critical that critical problem for us is is not something that's going be solved overnight.

我们正在投入大量精力，思考如何从更长远的未来开始改变这一现状。

We're putting a lot of effort into thinking about, you know, how do we start changing that for a lot longer in the future as well.

你刚刚很好地引出了萨米塔·比斯瓦斯（Impact Lead）提出的问题：我们如何确保女性在绿色就业革命中不被落下？你已经提到了STEM领域，当然也包括其他领域。

So you've opened up beautifully to a question that Samita Biswas from Impact Lead has asked and they ask how do we ensure women don't which you've touched on obviously in the STEM area but obviously other areas how do we ensure women don't get left behind in the green jobs revolution?

在发展中国家，我们如何确保非正式部门的贫困人口也能从绿色就业革命中受益？

And in developing countries, how do we ensure a just transition where the informal sector poor can also benefit from the green jobs revolution?

她第一个问题是关于英国对公正转型的做法，你提到很多人被排除在这一对话之外，这在许多就业领域确实如此。

So her first question is around The UK approach to the just transition, that point that you make that a lot of people are left out of this conversation, which is so true for so many parts of the employment market.

但伊贝德罗拉显然是一家全球性企业，当我们思考所谓的全球南方与全球北方时，这种公正转型的概念。

But then Iberdrola, obviously a global business, when we're thinking about what's sometimes described as the global South versus the global North, that notion of the trust transition.

因此，这既有英国的视角，也有更广阔的全球视角。

So there's a UK lens and there's a bigger global lens.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这是一个非常复杂的问题，但我坚信，我和伊贝德罗拉及苏格兰电力的许多同事都认为，解决人才问题不能仅靠任何一家公司单独完成。

I think it's such a it's such a complicated proposition, but I'm a big I'm a big believer in a lot of my colleagues and at Iberdrola and at Scottish Power, we we talk about the fact that, you know, this talent and how we we solve that problem is not just on any one company.

这必须是行业开发商、政策制定者、政府及不同领域之间的共同努力，因为我们无法独自解决这个问题。

It is very much should be a joint effort between developers in the sector, between policymakers, between government and different areas because we will not solve this problem by ourselves.

甚至在全球层面，我们也应避免每次都重新发明轮子。

And even at a global level, it's about, you know, not reinventing the wheel every time.

德国在劳动力基础设施方面有一些非常值得借鉴的做法。

Germany has some really good things that they do in terms of what they do with labor infrastructure.

因此，借鉴其他国家在不同领域的经验，将其引入英国，比如探讨我们如何共享最佳实践并共同推进。

So, you know, learning from other countries in different areas and picking that up and bringing it over to The UK, for example, looking at how we share best practices and what we do to deliver together.

因为目前，特别是在英国，由于劳动力市场非常紧张，正如我之前提到的，我们正在将许多女性和代表性不足的群体排除在这些工作之外，结果就是开发商和政策制定者们彼此之间只是互相借调人才。

Because at the moment, otherwise, what happens in The UK in particular, because we've got such a tight labor market and we, as I've discussed, are shutting out a lot of people in terms of women in underrepresented groups from those jobs, is that developers and policymakers, we all just borrow talent off each other.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们并没有真正去审视屋顶上的漏洞，思考我们究竟该做什么？

So we're not actually instead of actually, you know, looking at the the hole in the roof and and thinking about, what do we actually do?

我们需要重建吗？

Do we need to rebuild this?

我们该如何真正解决这个问题？

How do we fix it properly?

需要采取哪些措施？

What sort of things need to be done?

我们只是在下面放了个桶。

We're just putting a bucket under it.

所以这绝对是需要我们所有人共同承担的任务。

So it's very much it's a joint joint task for all of us.

我不确定我是否回答了所有问题

I'm not sure if I've answered all

我感兴趣的是，马德琳，具体来说，识别问题到底意味着你需要做什么？

of I'm I'm interested I'm interested, Madeleine, in the actual specifics of identify the problem, what does that specifically mean you have to do?

是 literally 去学校、去大学、去社区中心，更加积极地出现在

Is it literally going out to the school, literally going out to the colleges, literally going out to the community centers being much more visible in

工作中吗？

in the work?

然后。

Then.

你必须两者都做。

You've got to do both.

所以，我的一位同事谈到所谓的高影响力活动。

So it's about so one of my colleagues talks about, you know, high impact events.

对吧？

Right?

显然，政策、政府，每个人的时间都是有限的。

So obviously, policy, the government, everyone's time limited.

我们的资源也是有限的。

We're resource limited.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们要思考，哪些事情能产生最大的影响。

So it's thinking about what sort of things can we do that have the biggest impact possible.

对吧？

Right?

因此，深入社区，你该如何发现并推动那些能在全英国甚至海外产生更大影响的活动？

So getting into the community and how do you, you know, how do you pick up and lift events that you can have a bigger impact on throughout The UK or or take them overseas?

在伊贝德罗拉公司，我们在全球范围内共享同一行业内的最佳实践。

At Iberdrola, we share a lot of best practice globally in terms of what we're doing across the same industry.

关键是思考我们能在哪些方面创造最大价值并产生最大影响。

And it's about, you know, thinking about what where we can add that most value and have the biggest impact.

我只想问一下，当你们去学校时，你们谈论的是电力行业的工作，还是绿色工作，或者两者都谈？

Can I just ask, when you go out to schools, you're talking about jobs in the power sector, not green jobs, or are you talking about green jobs?

所以两者都有。

So it's a bit of both.

所以，就像我们之前讨论的那样，绿色工作这个术语有时会有些模糊，对吧？

So it's understanding the green jobs, like we've been talking before, is a bit of a tumultuous term sometimes, right?

因为它有不同的含义。

So it has different connotations.

所以我们要讨论的是这些绿色工作未来的发展方向，以及我们在电力行业内部的具体做法。

So it's talking about where the future is in those green jobs and what we're doing within us specifically in the power sector.

我们刚刚为青年慈善机构‘学徒信托’进行了一项大规模调查，了解年轻人的职业激励因素。

We just ran a big poll for The Apprentice Trust, is a young people's charity, on what are the career motivating factors for young people.

其中一个有趣的现象是，安全感位居首位，尤其是工作保障，对所有群体都是如此，对女性尤其如此。

And one interesting is like security comes top, job security, absolutely, for all groups, especially so for women.

女性在工作中优先考虑安全感的比例高出约15个百分点。

There is about a 15 lead on women prioritising security in their work.

这是因为年轻人知道存在性别薪酬差距，也知道他们可能在某个时候面临损失，因此他们希望保持谨慎。

And that's because young people know that they know there is a gender pay gap, they know that they might have to potentially take a hit at some point, And they want to be cautious.

他们希望为自己做出正确的选择。

They want to make the right choice for them.

因此，对于电力行业而言，在吸引女性时，你们面临的是否是一个与其他行业不同的问题？

So the question for the power sector is, in trying to attract women, is it a different problem that you're facing than anyone else?

可能并不是。

Probably not.

谈谈保障，谈谈职业发展平台，谈谈产假政策，以及未来转换岗位或调整工作模式的灵活性。

Talk about security, talk about the level of play, talk about your maternity conditions and the potential flexibility to move into other roles or shift your role or shift your working patterns.

这才是我们吸引人们进入这些岗位的方式。

This is how we get people into these roles.

我能不能补充一点，从政治角度来看，我们确实需要讨论优质工会化工作的重要性，因为GNB和其他工会对这一转型感到担忧并不奇怪。

Can I just add, politically, I think there is a real need to talk about good quality unionized jobs as well because it is not surprising that the GNB and other unions are kind of concerned about the transition?

你看一下波特奥班钢铁行业正在发生的事情。

You see what is happening in Port Orban with the steel.

你需要构建一个叙事，说明这些将是替代原有工作的优质工会化岗位。

You need to make the narrative that these are going to be good unionized jobs to replace.

政府在听这种观点吗？

Is the government listening to that type of argument?

目前，政府正与各个行业的多个工会处于对立状态？

The government is at war with a number of unions across all sorts of sectors at the moment?

政府有时与工会合作得不错，比如疫情期间，但我觉得现在并没有认真听取这些意见。

The government has worked well with the unions sometimes, didn't they, during the pandemic, but I don't think it's hearing very strongly.

在波特塔尔博特失去工作岗位之前，政府本应与工会合作，但当时并没有做到。

It didn't work with the unions before Port Talbot lost its jobs, which it should have done.

但我认为

But I'd

还要对GMB说，为什么不多努力去组织这些新兴行业？

also be saying to GMB, why are not working harder to unionise those new sectors?

你们必须摆脱只专注于保护现有会员的思维。

You need to move off the you need to definitely protect your existing members.

你们还需要努力去组织未来大量新的会员。

There's a whole future of other members that you need to be trying to unionize.

是的。

Yeah.

别死守不放。

Don't be clinging.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

这正是那种典型的二十世纪模式，他们却还在试图将其套用于二十一世纪的世界，这对许多行业和这场讨论的诸多方面都构成了问题。

It's that classic that classic twentieth century model they still keep trying to apply to a twenty first century world, which is a problem for so many sectors and so many parts of this discussion.

但是，肖恩，我想听听你对斯密塔问题的看法。

But, Sean, I wanted to come to you, about Smita's question.

政府是否在考虑这种经济上的公正转型概念，英国的情况如何？

Is the government thinking about this notion of an economically, let me put it like that, just transition, UK.

但这里针对这个问题提出的第二个重要观点是非正式部门的贫困问题。

But then the second big point that is made here for this question is this notion of the informal sector poor.

当你审视全球南方和全球北方时，这些经济体和结构与我们在西方发达经济体中更熟悉的模式完全不同。

So when you're looking at global south, global north, these economies and structures are are totally different and and from what we're more used to in Western developed economies.

你认为这是否是英国在全球范围内应承担的责任？

Do you see that as the responsibility of how The UK operates in the world?

所以有两个方面：英国和全球层面。

So two things, UK and then that global piece.

全球层面是个相当复杂且困难的问题。

The global piece is quite a big difficult question.

我稍后可能会谈到这一点。

I might come onto that.

政府在考虑公正转型吗？

The government thinking about just transition?

我认为政府做得还不够。

I don't think it is doing so enough.

我提到的绿色就业交付小组确实正在考虑多样性，以及女性在为所有人创造良好工作中的作用。

The Green Jobs Delivery Group, which I mentioned, is definitely thinking about diversity, the role of women making these good jobs for everyone.

他们在关注那些未接受教育、未就业或未参加培训的人群。

They're thinking about the not in education, employment or training.

有高达80万16至24岁的年轻人处于未接受教育、未就业或未参加培训的状态。

Extraordinary 800,000 young people aged 16 to 24 not in education, employment or training.

这确实是一场真正的国家危机，无论是否与绿色相关。

That's a real national crisis, whether it's green or not.

在劳动力紧张的市场中。

In a tight labour market.

百分之百。

100%.

有500到1000人没有登记为失业人员。

500, 1,000 of those aren't registered unemployed.

他们并没有积极寻找工作。

They're not actively seeking work.

我们还有大量就业不足的老年人。

We've also got the underemployed older people.

因此，如何让更多人进入并具备工作能力，存在深刻的问题。

So there are really profound issues about getting more people into work and capable of work.

肖恩，我想接下来稍微推你一下，萨姆，肖恩。

And Sean, guess I'm going push you a little bit then on to you, Sam, Sean.

但如果我们能提出一个可行的解决方案来回应我们所面临的问题，总是很好的。

But it's always good if we can come up with a solution or something that works to try and answer the questions that we've been thrown.

在你的工作中，你曾效力于那些杰出的组织，从事过咨询工作，也正在做当前的工作，虽然没有所谓的万能解法，但你是否看到过某些有效的方法，或者像你说的，马德琳，有哪些最佳实践值得我们学习和分享？

In your work, know, the great organisations you've worked in and the advisory work and the work you're doing at present, is there no such thing as a silver bullet, but is there a silver lining or something that you've seen that has worked well and that we should, as you say, Madeleine, be learning about best practice we could share?

我认为有很多不错的微型项目，但问题在于如何将它们推广普及。

I think there are lots of good micro schemes and the problem is how you mainstream them.

我们刚刚与青年咨询服务中心完成了一份报告，探讨如何帮助年轻人就业，并研究了一些促进人们从事自然相关工作的项目。

We have just done a report with the Youth Advisory Service about getting younger people into jobs and looking at some of the things, some of the schemes to get people working into nature jobs.

但这些项目在开展自然相关工作方面都需要大量补贴支持。

But they are kind of quite heavily subsidised groundwork of doing some useful things in terms of nature jobs.

但关键是如何实现规模化，我不确定是否有人已经找到了答案。

But it's how you get the scale, I am not sure that anybody has kind of got the answer to that.

但你需要一个框架、一项战略、一种测试方法，还需要更完善的数据收集，因为目前我们已经取消了英国负责收集所有技能数据的机构。

But you do need a framework and a strategy and a way of testing and you need much better data collection because at the moment also we've we scrapped the the kind of The UK body that collects all the data on skills what

这个领域至关重要。

The area is critical.

在绿色就业方面，政策调整带来了许多意想不到的后果。

So many unintended consequences of policy changes in in terms of the green jobs.

我感觉我们大约三年前开始把这个问题当作一场危机来审视。

And I get impression we're sort of starting we started looking at this as a sort of crisis about three years ago again as a country.

因此，我们至今还没有找到答案也就不足为奇了。

So it's not surprising we don't have this is the answer yet.

现在，萨姆，我的业务，新闻运动，位于纽约和伦敦。

Now, Sam, my my business, the news movement, is New York, London.

在美国，有一个由政府大力推动的STEM活动，最终会为年轻人举办一场盛大的白宫招待会。

In America, there is a huge government backed campaign around STEM, which ends up with a huge White House reception for young people.

这已经无处不在了。

It's all over.

这是联邦政府的举措，但遍及美国所有州。

It's the federal government, but it's throughout all the states in The United States.

我们与一些报道和工作有联系，因为我们的业务是与下一代员工和消费者——Z世代——进行沟通。

We're connected with with some of the coverage and work because our our our our business is about speaking to the next generation of employees and consumers, generation zed.

但是，萨姆，你有没有看到一些对公众有效的例子，或者可能有效的方法？

But, Sam, have you seen examples of things that work or what might work for the public?

你看，我从事这个行业已经三十年了，我们其实早在90年代就一直在讨论这些问题，只是方式不同，因为当时的增长轨迹完全不同。

Look, I've been in this business thirty years and we've been having these discussions actually not in the same way in the 90s because we had very different growth trajectory.

你已经提到了1997年的托尼·布莱尔。

You've already pointed back to Tony Blair in 1997.

那是另一个时代。

It was a different era.

2008年的金融危机导致了自那时以来收入和经济增长的长期停滞。

The two thousand and eight crisis in finance has led to this stagnant period of incomes and economic growth really for since that moment.

萨姆，你有没有看到一些实际解决方案的例子，即使在英国背景下？

Sam, have you got examples of where we can see some real solutions in this area, even in The UK context?

有的，我先从发展中国家这个角度说起。

Yes, well I'll start with the developing countries point actually.

所以，我们必须谨慎区分发展中国家及其所提供的内容或所处的转型阶段。

So I think we have to be careful about separating out developing countries and what their offer is or what their stages of the transition.

如果你去印度，印度目前正在培训成千上万的太阳能工程师，因为他们将自己在全球转型中的角色定位为输出劳动力。

So if you go to India, India is training 6 figure sums of solar engineers currently because they see their role in the global transition as exporting labor.

他们希望派遣工人到国外，帮助其他国家安装太阳能设备。

They want to send their workers abroad to work in different countries and help them install solar.

因此，我们企业绝对应该主动找政府，呼吁开放接纳印度的太阳能工程师，因为这不仅有助于解决英国的问题，也支持了发展中国家。

So we should absolutely be businesses should be knocking down the door to government and saying, we should be open to Indian solar engineers because it's helping us pick a UK problem and supporting a developing country.

当涉及到氢气等前沿技术时，情况就变得更加复杂了。

Where this becomes more challenging is in frontier technologies like hydrogen.

如果你去看看尼日利亚，尼日利亚凭借其庞大的石油和天然气产业，认为自己有可能成为氢能源领域的领导者。

So if you go to Nigeria, Nigeria thinks with all its oil and gas industry that it could be a potential leader in hydrogen.

但如果我们推进得更快，并且意识到我们这里缺乏熟练的氢气工程师，为什么不向海外寻求帮助呢？

But if we are moving faster and we say we actually don't have many skilled hydrogen engineers here, why don't we look abroad?

为什么不从尼日利亚引进一些劳动力呢？

Why don't we import some labor from Nigeria?

那样的话，我们可能会阻碍全球的能源转型。

Then we could potentially be holding back the global transition.

目前德国正在与哥伦比亚开展一些非常有趣的合作，他们支付哥伦比亚人接受太阳能和热泵工程师及安装工的培训，这些人会到德国工作一段时间，然后返回本国。

There's some really interesting stuff that Germany is doing at the moment with Colombia, where they are paying Colombians to become solar and heat pump engineers and installers, and they come over to Germany for a set amount of time and then they go back.

但除了你引进的这个人之外，你还资助了哥伦比亚国内的一个培训点。

But you've also, as well as the person you've imported, you funded a place back in Colombia.

因此，这种在海外支持培训项目、同时在短期内使发达国家受益的模式，我认为绝对是值得起步的方向。

So that sort of scheme where you are supporting training schemes abroad and benefiting for a short term in the developed world, I think is definitely a place to start.

我认为，当我们讨论国内问题时，需要跳出绿色转型的框架，去看看哪些做法是有效的。

Then I think we need to move out, when we're talking in country, we need to move outside of the green transition to look where things have worked.

政府曾推出一个非常出色的数字训练营计划，这是一种短期培训项目，持续几周，并在全国广泛宣传。

Government had a great scheme on digital boot camps, which is short term training schemes, few weeks, advertised everywhere.

这些广告中展示了大量多样化的人群，明确说明任何人都可以进入数字领域，从事各种数字工作，并清楚表明政府会资助你的培训名额。

Loads of diverse people in those advertisements saying this person can be in digital, this person can do this thing in digital and being really explicit about what those different roles were and that they were open to everyone and that government would help you fund your place.

目前，我们已资助了9000个热泵培训名额。

Now we have 9,000 heat pump training places funded currently.

但这并不意味着有9000人正在参加这些培训。

Now that's not 9,000 people doing them.

我们需要23万名热泵工程师。

We need 230,000 heat pump engineers.

因此，我建议可以借鉴数字训练营的模式，打造一个规模大得多的热泵培训项目，这或许是一个不错的起点。

So I would suggest that maybe a heat pump style bootcamp built on the digital model with a significantly larger number of places could be a good place to start.

这是一个非常具体而出色的例子。

That's a really good precise example.

这就是我喜欢听的，萨姆。

That's what I like to hear, Sam.

干得好。

Well done.

你得到一颗绿星。

You get a green star.

我本来想说金星，其实是绿星。

I was going to say gold star, actually green star.

就这样吧。

So there we go.

现在，任何讨论都离不开生成式人工智能。

Now, no debate is complete without talking about generative AI clearly.

这个术语有时被用来制造恐惧，有时又被用来带来极大的积极影响。

One of those terms that is thrown around sometimes to create fear, sometimes to create great positivity.

玛德琳，你如何看待生成式人工智能？

Madeline, how are you thinking about generative AI?

我们被问到一个问题：你认为人工智能和自动化将如何影响绿色工作的未来？

We've been asked the question, how do you think AI and automation will affect the future of green jobs?

随着技术的发展，未来人们会不会难以找到工作？

Will it be difficult for people to find jobs in the future as technology develops?

我认为，无论怎样，即使在考虑人工智能以及我们如何创新并真正自动化业务的许多部分时，绿色工作岗位仍然非常多，我们的劳动力将经历巨大变化，我们需要在何处、如何工作以完成所有基础设施建设，而人工智能只会帮助我们更好地实现这些目标。

I think I think regardless, even when thinking about AI and and what we can do to innovate and and actually, you know, automate a lot of parts of our business and what we do, the green job there are so many green jobs required and there's going to be so many changes through our workforce in terms of what people need to do and where we need to be to deliver on all the infrastructure that AI is only going to help us do that.

因此，我的很多工作实际上是进行战略性劳动力规划，思考我们未来该做什么，如何找到这些技能，以及我们需要关注哪些方面。

So from like a lot of my job is actually looking at strategic workforce planning and what we do for the future and how we find where those skills are and what we need to look at and where we need to focus.

因此，在战略性劳动力规划中，我们需要审视人工智能和数字化将如何影响这些岗位，以及我们可能需要重新培训哪些技能。

So part of strategic workforce planning, actually look at, well, how is AI and, you know, digitalization going to impact those jobs and where do we maybe need to retrain skills?

我们需要将人员调配到其他岗位吗？

Do we need to transfer people over?

我们需要具备什么样的未来前景和技能？

What sort of future outlook and skills are we gonna need to be getting?

所以，我认为人工智能并不值得害怕。

So I don't think AI is a thing to be scared of.

我认为人们害怕它是很自然的，因为这确实是一个未知领域，但我们需要充分利用它的潜力，将其作为绿色就业革命的关键推动者，以确保我们未来拥有足够的人才。

I think it's natural for people to be scared of it because you you know, it's very much an unknown, but I think we really need to harness the potential of it and use it as a key enabler in the green jobs revolution so that we can, we do have the people for the future.

目前英国有120万个职位空缺，求职者数量几乎已达到充分就业的水平。

We have 1,200,000 vacancies open in The UK at the moment, job vacancies We for people to are at near full employment anyway.

净零转型绝对是一个双赢的局面。

It is absolutely a case for the net zero transition that it is both.

我们英国面临的一个问题是，我们是一个工资水平较低、生产率较低的社会。

What we need and part of the problem in The UK is that we are a relatively low wage, low productive society.

我们希望每份工作都能提高每小时的产出，这样员工的工资也有可能随之增加。

We want each job to produce more per hour so that that person could potentially earn more wages.

净零转型的全部意义就在于，这些工作是高价值的，员工薪酬更高，所有人都能受益。

That's the whole point of the net zero transition, that the jobs are high value, people are higher paid, everyone benefits.

如果没有更高程度的自动化，没有更多技术帮助每位员工提升效率，这是不可能实现的。

There is no way of doing that without greater levels of automation, without greater levels of technology that is helping each worker to do more.

萨姆，关于生成式人工智能，我不确定

And Sam, on the notion of generative AI, I don't know

如果你做过关于公众态度的研究。

if you've done any work with public attitudes.

我的感觉是，虽然这显然不是思考这个问题的好方式，但我觉得把生成式人工智能引入绿色就业辩论中，即使这本来就是个错误的辩论方向。

My sense is, and this is obviously not a good way to think about this, but my sense is throw generative AI into the green jobs debate, even if that's the wrong type of debate to be having already.

它只会让公众对工作保障的理解更加遥远。

It just makes it even more distant from what the public think is job security.

这到底是什么意思？

What is this about?

它只会变成一件与我无关的遥远事情。

It just becomes an over there thing that doesn't involve me.

我认为公众很难定义这两者中的任何一个，而你又加入了一个他们无法定义的概念。

I think the public would struggle to define either of those things and you just add in another one that they can't define.

对于所有这些事情，关键是去掉这些头衔，迅速细化到具体细节。

With all of this stuff, it is about removing that title and getting granular very quickly.

这个人将在他们的岗位上做些什么，是你希望他们做的？

What is that person going to be doing in their role that you want them to be doing?

我们该如何向他们推销这些需要共同掌握的技能呢？

And how do we sell them on that skill set that they need to acquire together?

肖恩，我能把话题往前推进一下吗？

Sean, can I bring it forward?

我们收到了来自观众的两个问题，非常感谢大家参与这场由Intelligence Squared和Ipi Drola支持的激烈辩论。

We've got two questions, from our audience and thank you so much for joining this debate, energized, supported by Intelligence Squared and Ipi Drola.

肖恩，关于教育和绿色经济，我们刚才简单提过，但我还想问几个具体的问题。

Sean, two on, education and the green economy, which we've touched on briefly, but I wanted to ask these specific questions.

来自蒂莉的一个问题是：所谓的‘绿色经济’是否应该纳入学校课程？

One from Tilly, who asks, should green economy, which is put in quotes, be part of the school curriculum?

另一个匿名提问者补充道：学校或大学是否更应专注于为绿色就业革命提供培训和教育？

And then an add to that from another questioner who is anonymous, is it more important for schools or universities focus on training and education for the green jobs revolution?

所以我只是想知道你的看法

So I just wondered what your

抱歉。

Sorry.

回应：第二个问题是什么？

Response The second one, what is it?

第二个问题是，对于学校还是大学来说，是否更应该...

The second was, is it more important for schools or universities to Yes.

专注于培训和教育，以应对绿色就业革命？

Focus or maybe even and, I don't know, I would imagine and maybe, but to focus on training and education for the green jobs revolution?

我认为，学校应该更广泛地教授环境知识。

Well, schools, I think schools should be teaching more generally about the environment.

我们刚刚引入了自然历史GCSE课程，但气候变化已被移出课程。

We've just got a natural history GCSEs come in, but climate change was taken out of the curriculum.

我的意思是，我们正生活在一个

Mean, we are living in

这真是令人震惊，不是吗？

a That's remarkable shot, doesn't it?

气候变化被从课程中移除了，对吧？

Climate change was taken out of the curriculum, no?

这不正是吗？

Is that not?

我觉得这相当了不起。

Well, I think it was pretty remarkable.

他是其中之一。

And he's one of them.

所以，蒂莉，很抱歉，但似乎政府已经决定要朝相反的方向发展。

So Tilly, we're sorry, but it seems that the government's already decided it's going to go in the opposite direction.

但无论如何，肖恩在他的有力贸易顾问角色中，有望推动他们回头。

But anyway, Sean, in his powerful trade advisory role, will be able to push them back, hopefully.

我

I

我不确定是否应该教授，但很想知道你对是否应专门教授绿色就业的看法。

am not sure about teaching it would be interesting to get your take whether you teach people specifically about green jobs.

我们绿色联盟的一份报告中提到了一个问题，那就是职业建议方面存在困境。

There is a thing that came up in one of our Green Alliance reports is one of the there's an issue with careers advice.

人们根本想不到这类工作是存在的，因为他们在学校根本没有得到足够好的职业指导。

People just don't think there are jobs of this sort out there because they're not getting think they're just not getting good enough careers advice actually in school.

问题是，我们总说需要做更多事情，但却没有真正帮助人们应对当前正在发生的变革。

The problem is we keep saying we need to do lots more things, but we do to equip people for the revolution that's happening at the moment.

这包括在学校里讨论职业选择，同时也让人们理解气候危机和生态危机的本质。

And that includes working in schools about career options, but also so people understand the nature of the climate crisis and the ecological crisis.

有些人会觉得这是宣传，但其实并不是。

Not kind of, people will think that's propaganda, but it isn't really.

我只是觉得，可以通过科学课来实现。

I just think it's, you can do it with science lessons.

人们应该了解地球为什么会变暖。

People ought to understand why the planet is heating.

有一个有趣的数据显示。

Just one interesting, data point.

我们围绕人们从哪里学习知识这个概念做了大量工作。

We did a lot of work around this notion of where people learn things.

当然，人们学习的地方并不只是在学校，实际上，对于很多年轻人来说，YouTube视频才是他们主要的学习渠道。

And of course where people learn things is only partially in school and actually YouTube videos is the main place that lots of people learn things who are young.

我的儿子。

My son.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得，马德琳，考虑到我的孩子，他们一个二十三岁，一个二十岁，他们就是去那里找信息的。

I think, I think, Madeleine, thinking about my children as well as they're twenty three and twenty, that's where they go to find out stuff.

但我认为，这并不意味着教育政策制定者就没有作用，只是他们需要在受众所在的地方发挥作用。

But I think that doesn't mean there's not a role for education policymakers, but in spaces where their audience is.

我仍然觉得，现在太多人试图用二十世纪的方法来解决二十一世纪受众的问题。

I still think there's too much of a notion of trying to have twentieth century fixes for twenty first century audiences.

而二十一世纪的受众，是的，教室是其中一个地方，蒂莉，这是个好问题。

And twenty first century audiences, yes, the classroom is one place, Tilly, and that's a good question.

但坦白说，YouTube是另一个地方。

But, frankly, YouTube is another.

只是想知道，玛德琳，在教育方面，是否充分考虑了你的受众在哪里，以及受众、消费者、下一代劳动力实际上是如何获取信息的？

Just wonder, Madeleine, on the education point, is enough thought being given to where your audience is and how audiences, consumers, the next generation of workforces actually consume information?

我觉得这是一个非常复杂的问题。

I think it's a really complex issue.

你用TikTok吗？

Are you on TikTok?

我知道。

I know.

我实际上没有TikTok。

I actually, do not have TikTok.

但我认为，从不同角度看待YouTube，人们喜欢的方式，说实话，我通过播客学到了很多东西。

But I think I think that, you know, thinking about YouTube in different ways that people like, I I learn a lot through podcasts, like, to be perfectly honest.

我大部分的信息和知识都是从那里获取的。

That's where I get a lot of information learn.

所以每个人，尤其是在后疫情时代，我们的工作方式都不同了。

So everybody and particularly in this post COVID world as well, we work differently.

我们做事的方式不同。

We do things differently.

我们吸收信息的方式不同，人们关注的事物也各不相同。

We absorb information, and and people have different things that matter.

因此，你必须以不同的方式来应对。

So you have to really approach it differently.

我认为在教育方面，无论是从职场内部还是年轻受众的角度来看，碳素养都是一个非常重要、非常关键的议题，我们需要花更多时间去关注。

I think on that education piece, overall from within the workforce and also, you know, a younger audience, I think the carbon literacy is a really, really important piece that, you know, we need to spend some more time on.

实际上，人们需要理解，碳素养中的‘净零’到底意味着什么，以及围绕这一点制定相应的要求。

Actually people understanding, you know, what what and what does net zero mean in that carbon literacy, and having requirements around that.

同时也要能够为未来的劳动力做好准备。

And also being able to being able to deliver for the future on the workforce.

我们需要提供职业指导，正如你，肖恩，提到的那样——关于学校里的孩子们究竟得到了什么样的建议，未来的孩子们又将获得怎样的指导，以便他们能够获得支持，掌握最好的信息来规划自己的职业生涯。

Need to that careers advice, think that point from you, Sean, in terms of actually people in schools and what advice are our kids being given and what advice are the children in the future so that, you know, they're enabled and they've got the best information to make their careers.

我认为我们需要开始更聪明地思考人们如何吸收这些信息。

And I think we need to start being really clever about how people can absorb that information.

这些工作也是为每个人准备的吗？

And these are jobs for everyone as well?

是的。

Yep.

为每个人的工作。

Jobs for everyone.

百分之百。

100%.

萨姆，碳素养，别再抛出另外两个公众可能难以理解的词了，但萨姆，关于我们应该如何应对，你已经多次提到这一点，我认为你提出的最有趣的主题之一是我们用来说服人们参与这些讨论的语言。

Sam, carbon literacy, not to have thrown another two words that the public will presumably struggle to But get their names Sam, what about the how we should be approaching you've touched on this a couple of times actually, I think one of the most interesting themes you've raised is the language we use to persuade people to engage with these debates.

学校的作用，公众的知识水平，我认为马德琳你提出了一个非常重要的观点。

The role of schools, sense of the public's knowledge, think Madeline you make such an important point.

我认为在我的领域，碳素养的概念，还有媒体素养的概念——如何辨别真相，我认为这很重要。

I think the notion of carbon literacy in my area, the notion of media literacy, how to know what the truth is, I think is important.

今年，全球约有40%的人口——从印度到墨西哥，从美国到印度尼西亚，从南非到英国——都将参与投票。

Then we've got, what is it, 40%, depending on how you judge an election, 40% of the world's population this year will be going to vote from India to Mexico to The USA to Indonesia to South Africa to The UK, of course.

萨姆，碳素养这个概念加上了这么多人，我想象中他们并不理解1.5摄氏度的升温意味着什么，因为他们觉得那也没多少。

Sam, carbon literacy added into the notion of so many people I would imagine don't understand what 1.5 degrees warming is because they think well that's not very much.

为什么我们对如此微小的温度变化如此恐慌？

Why are we so panicked about such a small amount of change in the temperature?

我是附近一所公立学校的校董，我们正在努力思考：如何引导孩子们走向净零学校？一所伦敦公立学校的净零状态应该是什么样子？

I'm a governor at a state school up the road and we are trying to work through how do we bring the kids on a journey to a net zero school, what does being net zero in a London state school look like.

最能让老师翻白眼的事情——快得超乎你想象——就是谈论改变课程。

First thing that will make a teacher's eyes roll over, faster than you can imagine, is talking about changing the curriculum.

对政策制定者来说，改变课程是个非常容易的手段：我们只要改改课程，多加点内容就行了。但他们没想过：‘好吧，你们让我们做这个额外的事，可我的一天里哪儿还有时间塞进去呢？'

It's a really easy lever for policymakers to go, we'll just change the curriculum, we can put more stuff in And they go, okay, so they want us to do this extra thing, but where are you going to fit that in, in my day?

我已经每天工作那么多个小时了，所有事情都排满了，干脆随便塞进个人、社会、健康教育（PSHE）里，希望他们别发现。

I'm already working x number of hours, everything is complete, quick, let's bung it in PSHE and hope they don't notice.

我认为，教育部在可持续发展战略方面扮演着重要角色。

I would say there's a big role, so DFE have a sustainability strategy.

其中很多内容都关乎学校如何处理废弃物、如何获取能源。

And a lot of that is about how schools deal with their waste, how they get their energy.

其中有一小部分涉及他们应该教授的内容。

And there's a small section on what they should be teaching.

但我们确实需要从头再来。

But we do need to go back to the drawing board.

在UCL、可持续发展中心和联邦教育机构中，有一些非常出色的组织正在探讨：将气候变化融入整个课程体系会是什么样子？

There's some fantastic organisations out there at UCL, Centre for Sustainability, Fed Education going, okay, what does climate change integrated across the syllabus look like?

而不是把它当作一个需要硬塞进去的额外任务。

Rather than going, it is an extra thing that we need to cram in.

我们需要将其作为历史的一部分来教授，比如政府是如何崩溃的。

We need to be teaching it as an aspect of history and how governments have fallen.

我们需要在地理和科学课程中教授它。

We need to be teaching it in geography and in science.

但这也关乎我们教授这些学科的方式。

But it's also about the way we teach those subjects.

比如本生灯，你知道，这并不是我们讨论工程和产业战略转型的最佳例子。

So a Bunsen burner, you know, it's not the best example of ways that we want to talk about the transition in engineering and industrial strategy.

我认为关于这一点，最后我要说的是，我们不能仅仅教人们了解这个问题。

And I think the final piece on that that I say is we can't just teach people about the problem.

我们需要赋予年轻人能够应用于此问题并尝试解决它的技能。

We need to equip young people with skills that they can apply to that problem to try and solve it.

而这正是教育需要根本性改革的地方，因为这些技能是相通的。

And that's where education does need fundamental reform, is those skills are the same.

它们在人工智能领域是相通的，在能源转型中也是如此。

They are the same across AI, they are the same across the energy transition.

如何运用工程思维或解决问题的思维来应对这一全球性重大挑战，并让孩子们感受到他们能为此做出贡献的希望，我认为，这与理解1.5摄氏度意味着什么同样重要，甚至更为重要。

How you apply an engineering mindset or a problem solving mindset to this big global challenge and giving children a sense of hope that they can have a role in it is, I think, equally, if not more important than understanding what 1.5 to mean.

太棒了，萨姆。

Brilliant, Sam.

非常感谢你。

Thank you so much.

我们马上就要进入这场精彩绝伦的辩论的最后三到四分钟了，但我有两个问题，如果可以的话，请大家简短回答。

Look, we're coming to the last three to four minutes of this fabulous, fabulous debate, but I've got two questions, slightly short fire answers if I can ask from all of you.

我先问一下肖恩和萨姆，第二个问题则具体关于伊普德罗拉细胞。

The first one I'm going to do Sean and Sam and then the second one is actually specifically about ipadrola, the cell.

所以，玛德琳，我稍后会问你。

So I'll come to you Madeline on that.

萨姆，你可能稍微提到过这一点，你也提到了印度，但有一位观看我们讨论的人问，世界上哪个国家在创造绿色就业岗位和培训足够数量的熟练工人方面走在最前面？

Sam, you may have touched on this slightly and you did mention India, but someone who is watching us has asked which country in the world is leading the way on creating green jobs and training the right amount of skilled workers.

有没有这样的例子？我接下来会问你，肖恩，同样的问题：有没有我们可以借鉴的例子？也许德国？玛德琳，你曾提到过，在你的工作中，你有没有看到可以回答这类问题的范例？

Are there examples out there, and I am going to come to you Sean with the same question, are there examples out there that we can look to, maybe Germany, Madeline, you have mentioned, that you have seen in your work that we could be looking to answer that type of question?

这要看绿色转型的哪个部分。

Depends on which part of the green transition.

如果你关注热泵，那么挪威、法国、德国和欧洲整体在这一领域远远领先于英国。

So if you are looking at heat pumps, Norway, France, Germany, Europe, miles ahead of The UK.

他们知道怎么做，知道如何安装，也知道如何培训人员。

They know how to do it, they know how to install it, they know how to train the people.

在更广泛的创造就业方面，乔·拜登通过《通胀削减法案》，将巨额资金投入美国经济，以推动其发展。

On that wider creating jobs, Joe Biden, through his Inflation Reduction Act, put all of the money under God into the American economy to get it moving.

这已经奏效了。

It has worked.

他们的私人投资和制造业在多项指标上都飙升了。

Their private investment manufacturing is going through the roof on a number of metrics.

问题是，他们现在面临的情况是：我们能创造大量职位空缺，但现在需要填补这些岗位。

Problem is they're now at the stage of going, okay, so we can create lots of job openings, now we need to fill them.

因此，他们正在看向欧洲，询问：你们是如何培训人才的？

So there they're looking to Europe and going, how are you training people?

我们如何推动更高水平的自动化？

How are we leading to greater levels of automation?

因为拜登想向公众宣传他创造的就业机会，但人们必须先拥有这些工作，

Because Biden wants to talk to the public about jobs he's created, but people have to have those jobs so

他才能做到这一点。

that he can do that.

当然。

Sure.

对于这一点，你有什么想法吗？有没有哪个国家是我们应该关注的？

Any thoughts on that at all, on the notion of is there a country we should be looking to?

没有。

No.

我本来也想说美国的情况也一样。

Was going to say the same about The US.

我的意思是，挪威在电动汽车方面非常出色。

Mean, Norway on EVs are very good.

玛德琳，我简单问你一下最后这个问题。

Madeline, let me just come to you very briefly on this final question.

伊贝德罗拉公司在全球不同办事处吸引人们从事绿色工作的方式有何不同？

How does Iberdrola's work to attract people to green jobs differ across different offices across the world?

在澳大利亚、西班牙或苏格兰，这种方法有所不同吗？

Is the approach different in Australia compared with Spain or Scotland?

是的。

Yes.

我们非常幸运能在多个国家运营，但这些国家都非常非常不同。

So we are very privileged to operate in a number of countries, but, you know, all those countries are very, very different.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们努力分享最佳实践，但也必须根据当地市场进行调整。

So we try and share best practice, but we also have to tailor it to the local market.

关于英国，我们已经讨论过，那里的劳动力市场非常紧张，因此稍微困难一些。

The UK, we've talked about, really tight labor market, it's so a little bit more difficult.

对吧？

Right?

然而在西班牙，失业率高达11.5%，对他们来说这已经很低了。

However, in Spain, they've got, you know, 11 and a half percent unemployment, and that's really low for them.

因此，在吸引人才方面，这是一个非常不同的市场。

So it's a very different market in terms of attracting people in.

美国也是如此，至于术语和类似的东西，你通常必须非常巧妙地表达方式和命名，因为你必须非常谨慎地吸引本地受众。

Same as The US, and it's all like, the nomenclature and things like that, you usually have to be really clever about how you say things and and and and what you call things because it's you very much need to be careful about how you attract your local audience.

因此，我们试图建立一个伊贝德罗拉的价值主张，可以加以利用，因为我们是一家全球性公司，存在一些非常棒的机会，但我们必须巧妙地根据本地市场进行调整。

So we try and have a Iberdrola value proposition that we can leverage because we are a global company and there's some really cool opportunities, but we do have to be clever at really tailoring that to local markets.

Trabajos Verdevs 这个说法在西班牙反响如何？

How does Trabajos Verdevs go down?

在西班牙，‘绿色工作’这个说法反响如何？

How does green jobs go down in Spanish?

哦，我的西班牙语非常差，比如我能不能顺利到达机场，而我根本不会说西班牙语？

Oh my my Spanish is very business as in, could I get to the airport and I don't speak Spanish?

对不起，先生。

I'm sorry, sir.

萨姆，一

Sam, one

我们可以添加到我们需要学习的内容中的一点。

thing we can add to the things we need to learn about.

最后，每人最后一分钟，我想结束并衷心感谢大家收看这场精彩的辩论，也衷心感谢三位的参与。

Just finally, final minute, final minute from each of you and I want to end and thank you so much for tuning in to watch this this brilliant debate we've had and thank you so much to the three of you for it.

关于你们的乐观程度，我认为我们对所使用的语言进行了一场非常有趣的讨论。

Just about your degree of optimism, I think we've had a really interesting discussion about the language we use.

我们认为‘绿色就业’可能不是最佳表述，但真正的变革必须发生，需要一种整体性的方法。

We think green jobs is maybe not it, but actually the revolution needs to happen, the need for a holistic approach.

但萨姆，如果我先请你谈谈，你对‘绿色就业革命’这个说法有多大信心？我们真的能做对吗？

But Sam, if I could come to you first, that notion of how much optimism do you have under this title of the green jobs revolution that we are going to get it right?

五五开。

Fiftyfifty.

英国在脱碳电力系统方面绝对是世界领导者，做得非常出色。

The UK, absolutely world leader in decarbonising its power system, has done a fantastic job.

但现在我们有点落后了。

We've now sort of settled behind.

这50%意味着我们让自己落后了，这让我有点担心。

The 50% is like we've let ourselves fall behind, so it makes me a bit worried.

但还有50%的希望，其他国家正在迅猛发展，我们完全没有理由不能效仿并迎头赶上。

But 50%, other countries are going gangbusters, there's no reason we can't copy and catch up.

太棒了。

Fantastic.

肖恩？

Sean?

GreenLouis 的一个价值观是我们是乐观主义者，所以我被要求保持乐观。

One of GreenLouis' values is we are optimists, so I'm mandated to optimism.

如果政府停止打压诸如绿色繁荣计划这样的举措，并提出一个不同的计划来应对低投资、低生产率和低增长的问题，我是乐观的。

I am optimistic if we can if the government stops trying to knock things like the green prosperity plan and comes up with a different plan for how we're going to deal with low investment, low productivity, low growth.

如果工党执政，并且真正坚持立场，认为这是一场转型，我们必须跟上，那么工党是乐观的。

And if there is a Labour government, if it really sticks to its guns and says this is a transition, we have got to go with it, the Labour is optimistic.

玛德琳，你的乐观程度如何？

Madeline, what levels are your optimism?

我天性非常乐观，这在我的工作中和我所面临的挑战中非常有帮助。

I am very optimistic by nature and it really helps me in this job and the challenge that I have.

但我觉得，如果我们所有人齐心协力，充分利用政府和私营部门的人才，共同努力，我们真的能够产生影响，也一定能做到。

But I think if we all work together and we use, the talent that we have across government, across the private sector, and we work together, I think we really can make a difference, and we will be able to do it.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

非常感谢萨姆、肖恩和马达雅。

Thank you so much, Sam, Sean, and Madhay.

这场辩论太精彩了。

What a fantastic debate.

非常感谢您的参与。

Thank you so much for joining.

本次关于“激发能源”、绿色转型和2050年实现净零排放的辩论，得到了Intelligence Squared和Ipadrola的支持。

We've been supported by Intelligence Squared and Ipadrola for this debate around Energize and the green transition and net zero by 2050.

我是卡马尔·艾哈迈德。

I'm Kamal Ahmed.

我是新闻运动的创始人兼主编。

I'm the founder and editor in chief of the news movement.

再次感谢您的参与，请关注Intelligence Squared/ Energize，观看这场辩论的完整精彩内容。

Thank you so much for joining, and do plug in to Intelligence Squared forward slash Energize to see this whole debate in super technical.

感谢收听《Energized》，这是由Intelligence Squared和Iberdrola联合制作的播客。

Thanks for listening to Energized, a podcast from Intelligence Squared and Iberdrola.

本集由法耶·阿德比塔制作。

This episode was produced by Faye Adebita.

要收听更多《Energized》的节目，请在您常用的播客平台搜索该节目。

For more episodes of Energized, search out the show wherever you get your podcasts.

如果您想及时了解Intelligence Squared的最新动态，请订阅我们的通讯。

If you want to keep up with everything going on at Intelligence Squared, sign up to the newsletter.

请访问intelligencesquared.com，获取我们即将举行的全部线下活动信息，会员还可以浏览我们超过二十年的往期节目库，内容汇聚了世界顶尖思想家的精彩对话。

Head over to intelligencesquared.com to get the heads up on all our live events coming up, and members can also peruse over twenty years of our back catalog featuring some of the world's great minds.

更多详情请访问intelligencesquared.com。

That's all over at intelligencesquared.com.