第1集：与安迪和芭芭拉·穆斯基耶蒂共话《试播集》

确实如此。

Absolutely.

而且，你知道，我虽然只看过《音乐人》的部分片段，但我看过《辛普森一家》的单轨列车那集。

And, you know, I I've seen parts of the Music Man, but I have seen the Monorail episode of The Simpsons.

所以我明白

So I know

这就够了。

That's all you need.

我懂你的意思。

I'm picking up what you're putting down.

问题是镇上的人没意识到腐蚀早已存在。

The problem is that the people in the town don't realize the corrosion that's already there.

这就是德里镇的全部症结所在。

And that's the whole thing about Derry.

他们没意识到搞砸一切的未必是外来者。

It's like they don't realize it's not the outsider that's necessarily ruining it for you.

问题在于那个外来者已经存在，就像它在汲取你们所给予的一切。

It's that the outsider is already, like it's feeding off of what you already are giving it.

我认为这也正是这类小镇恐怖故事如此引人入胜的原因。

And I think that is also what makes this kind of small town horror so encompassed.

你看，这些故事之所以不发生在贫民区或城市地带是有原因的——人们想在这样的小镇里获得安全感。

See, like, there's a reason why these stories don't take place in the hood or in the urban areas because people wanna feel safe in these in these towns.

他们渴望相信我们已经将自己隔绝得足够彻底，外界永远无法触及我们。

They wanna feel like we have secluded ourselves enough that the outside can never get to us.

而当他们意识到它早已存在时，为时已晚。

And by the time they realize it's already there, it's too late.

在我们离开之前，必须聊聊电影院那场戏。

Before we bounce out of here, we have to talk about the movie theater scene.

天啊。

Oh my god.

我早说过那个空军基地附近有怪事发生。

I told you weird shit was going on over that airbase.

他们做了个巨大的裸体婴儿雕像。

They made a giant fucking nude, baby.

我认为自己算是个相对有经验的电视观众，能理解一些叙事线索，某种程度上也熟悉角色设定时的套路和系统性现实。

I'd like to think that I'm a relatively experienced watcher of television, and kind of understanding, you know, a little bit of the the the narrative thread, and, you know, to a certain degree tropes and and systematic realities of, we're setting up a cast of characters.

这些将是我们要跟随一季的主角。

These are gonna be the protagonist that we're following for a season.

就是这个家庭，我们终会找到方式去打破他们的平静，然后他们杀掉了半个家庭。

This is the family that we are at some point going to find a way to disrupt, and then they kill half the family.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

就像，

Like,

哟，我们不该这么玩的。

yo, we're not supposed to play like this.

你说他们都消失了是什么意思？

What do you mean they're all gone?

发生什么了？

What happened?

这是个大胆的选择，因为再次强调，你完全预料不到会这样发展。

It's a bold choice because, again, you do not see that coming in any way.

我是说，一方面你可能觉得恶魔婴儿可能是个梦，可能是幻觉，或者随便什么。

I mean, a, you also think that, like, demon baby might have been a dream, might have been a hallucination, might have been a whatever.

但当它从电影屏幕里爬出来，开始像空袭扫射般破坏时，你就会意识到：哦，这不再是闹着玩的了。

But when it claws its way out of the movie screen and begins to like strafe an air bomb and destroy, it's like, oh, we are not playing anymore.

哦豁。

Oh yeah.

这次更像是...不是那种逐个击破的鬼屋把戏。

Like this everybody is, not so much a haunted house where we're picking them off one at a time.

在《欢迎来到德里》的祭坛上，将会有大批生命被献祭。

Just vast swathes of lives are going to be sacrificed in the altar of Welcome to Derry.

这太让人联想到《惊声尖叫》第一部或《猛鬼街》开头那种完美的诱饵调包手法了。

It was so evocative of like, you know, the first Scream movie or the first part of the Nightmare on Elm Street of just like that kind of bait and switch is just so perfect.

我认为它对观众的作用是让你始终保持警觉。

I think what it does for you as a viewer is it keeps you on your toes.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

因为我本来已经准备好关注泰迪和菲尔以及他们的行动，结果却是，不，实际上是罗尼和莉莉。

Because I was so ready to be invested in Teddy and Phil and what they're gonna do and it's like, no, actually, it's Ronnie and Lily.

罗尼是那个在第一次被电影追逐时帮助麦迪逃脱的年轻女孩。

Ronnie's You the young girl who helps Maddie escape when he's getting chased out of the movie in the first time.

就像这个年轻的黑人女孩和另一个已经被视为局外人的白人女孩，她们可能会成为我们的新主角。

And it's like this young black girl and this other white girl who's already perceived as an outsider, these are gonna be maybe our new protagonist.

人们会更少听信她们的话。

They're gonna listen to them less.

这已经让你预感到将会出现一个非常引人入胜的冲突，因为谁会为那些死去的孩子承担责任呢？

It's like, it it already gets you ready that there's gonna be this really compelling conflict coming out of it because who's gonna take credit for those dead kids?

将会是这两位女士。

It's gonna be these two ladies.

天啊。

Oh my god.

将会是'黑檀与象牙'这对组合努力求生。

It's gonna be Ebony and Ivory trying to survive their way.

真大胆。

Daring.

而且完美地不和谐。

And perfect disharmony.

完美的不和谐。

Perfect disharmony.

让我想起《吸血鬼猎人巴菲》第一集。

Reminds me of the very first episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

开场字幕里有个角色在剧集中段就被杀了。

Where in the opening credits is a character that they kill midway through the show.

是啊。

Yeah.

就像埃里克·巴弗尔在片头字幕里看起来像是固定演员阵容的一部分。

Like Eric Balfour is like part of the cast as far as the opening credits tell you.

然后他们把他写死了，接着他就从片头字幕里消失了。

And then they kill him, and then he's out of the opening credits.

这种程度的操作，就是通过所有可能的方式让你投入剧情，然后通过这个角色的死亡告诉你：没有什么是真正安全的，一切都不会如你所想。

That level of like, we're investing you in a thing in every way we can and just teaching you through that demise that nothing is really safe and that nothing is as you think it's going to be.

我认为这种叙事方式非常有趣，而且我们已经习惯了看到非常残酷的事情发生。

And I think that is such fun storytelling and I think we're used to seeing really brutal things happen.

毕竟是HBO出品。

It's HBO.

但我认为，没有什么能让你准备好目睹几个孩子被一只飞行的恶魔蝙蝠婴儿摧毁的场景。

But I think that there's still nothing that gets you prepared to see several children be destroyed by a flying demon bat baby.

你知道，这种事情即便在2025年依然让人感觉新鲜。

You know, that doesn't that is just something it it still feels new in 2025.

我想了解这部剧是如何诞生的。

I wanna know how this series came together.

它是如何从第一章发展到第二章，再到八集剧集的？

How it went from chapter one to chapter two to an eight episode series?

为了回答这个问题，我们采访了最了解德里的人——执行制片人安迪和芭芭拉·穆斯基蒂。

To answer that, we sat down with the people who know Derry best, executive producers Andy and Barbara Muschietti.

他们是《小丑回魂》系列电影背后的团队，如今又带着《欢迎来到德里》回归扩展这个故事。

They're the team behind the It films, and now they've come back to expand the story with Welcome to Derry.

还有谁比他们更适合开启我们的首次对话呢？

Who better to kick off our very first conversation?

安迪、芭芭拉，欢迎来到节目，非常感谢你们的到来。

Andy and Barbara, welcome to the show, and thank you so so much for being here.

马克、普林塞斯，非常感谢邀请我们。

Mark, Princess, thank you so much for having us.

这会很有趣的。

This is going to be fun.

哦，你现在这么说，等着瞧吧。

Oh, you say that now, just you wait.

没错。

Exactly.

我们会准备好泡菜的。

We'll get the pickles ready.

我们非常期待讨论这部剧集，也非常想知道《欢迎来到德里》这个想法是何时以及如何产生的。

We're so excited to talk about this series, and we're so fascinated to find out, you know, how and when the idea for Welcome to Dairy came about.

我想这一切始于我们完成《它》续集的时候，由于与比尔·斯卡斯加德的紧密合作，我们的友谊，以及我们想要深入探索的渴望。

So I guess it all started while we were finishing it too, and, you know, due to the proximity with Bill Skarsgard and, you know, our friendship and our desire to to dig deeper.

我认为连续制作两部电影后仍对这个项目意犹未尽，还有所有浮现的问号——比如小丑潘尼怀斯的起源，这个在原著中如此隐晦又神秘的设定，正是最精彩的部分之一。

I think that, you know, making two movies in in a row and then leaving the project with the desire to to do more, and also all the question marks that that arise, all the mysteries of what is the origin of Pennywise, that is something that is so cryptic in the book and so mysterious, one of the one of the great things.

而且原著篇幅宏大，我记得有1300页左右。

And it is such a sprawling book, it's, you know, I think 1,300 pages.

差不多是这个厚度。

Something like that.

于是我们和比尔商量，觉得必须拍一个起源故事。

So with Bill, we were like, we have to do an origin story.

那时候，这还只是些非常随意的闲聊。

At that point, it was a very, you know, casual conversations.

后来时间流逝，我们都各自投入了不同的项目。

And, you know, time went by, and we we all went into different projects.

我参与了《闪电侠》，大约在项目初期时重拾了这个想法，决定付诸实践。

We went into the Flash, and somewhere around that moment, at the beginning of Flash, I picked up the idea again, and I thought, okay, let's do it.

最初只是关于小丑潘尼怀斯的起源，后来逐渐扩展为对过往事件的深入探索，挖掘书中插叙内容以及麦克·汉伦的所有调查。

It actually started as the origin of Pennywise, but then it grew into what it turned out to be, which is a bigger exploration of the events of the past, looking into the interludes of of the book, all the investigations of Mike Hanlon.

我们深爱这部小说，即使已经拍了两部电影，仍觉得有必要讲述更多故事。

You know, the book is something that we love deeply, and you make two movies about the book and you still feel the need to tell more of the story.

这就是整个项目的开端。

And that's how it that's how it started.

是啊。

Yeah.

于是我们询问了伟大的史蒂芬·金先生，看他是否愿意走这条路。

So we asked mister Stephen King, a great Stephen King, if he'd be, you know, willing to go that path.

我们总是希望得到他的祝福，因为我们非常敬仰他。

We always want his blessing because we admire him so much.

他对这个想法感到非常兴奋，于是安迪决定向他提出回溯时间线的构想。

And he got really excited by the idea, and Andy decided to pitch him the idea of going backwards in time.

对吧？

Right?

基本上让每一季都成为一个循环周期。

And making each season a cycle, basically.

因此每季之间会有27年的间隔，因为这是潘尼怀斯的周期规律。

So there would be a twenty seven year gap in between each season because that is Pennywise's cycle.

他沉睡之后会醒来恐吓下一代人，大致如此。

He goes to sleep, and he wakes up to terrorize the next generation, basically.

这就是27年周期的由来。

That's that's why they're twenty seven years.

既然史蒂夫如此兴奋，我们就去找了华纳兄弟的传奇人物彼得·罗斯，当然，华纳兄弟拥有这本书的版权。

And since Steve got really excited, we went to the legendary Peter Roth at Warner Brothers, who, of course, Warner Brothers has the rights of the book.

于是我们在2020年向他推介了这个项目，当时疫情刚开始，他在电话会议中就当场拍板了。

So we pitched it to him at the 2020, right when the pandemic had started, and he bought it in the call.

他在Zoom会议上一锤定音。

He bought it in the Zoom.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们向他们推介的基本就是这个故事线，原本规划的是三季内容。

So our pitch to them was basically this arc, which was originally a three season story.

就像芭比说的，这是倒叙讲述的。

And as Barbie said, it's told backwards.

第一季从1962年开始，第二季会跳到1935年——也就是下一个周期。

So we jump, Season one is in 1962, and season two would happen in 1935, which is the next cycle.

最终所有谜团将在1908年揭晓。

And it would all resolve in nineteen o eight.

目前我们只完成了第一季的制作。

We only did season one so far.

我们对这一季非常满意。

We're very happy with it.

接下来会怎样发展还有待观察。

We'll see what happens with the rest.

在明确你们的规划和方向时，你们是何时确定要拍成剧集而非另一部电影的？

Understanding what your your plan is and where you're going with it, when did you land on the idea that it was a series, that it was television and not another film?

即使再拍一部电影，我仍会觉得未能涵盖全部内容，这样就得不断拍下去，直到离世都无法完整呈现原著。

I could have done one more movie and still be like have that feeling that we haven't covered all, so I would have to keep making movies and die without ever uncovering the book.

因此最初的想法是：通过剧集可以获得更大的创作空间，能讲述更丰富的故事，塑造更多角色，特别是能更深入地刻画人物，以不同于电影的方式展现他们的成长历程，探索那些在电影中受限于篇幅而难以呈现的微妙复杂层面。

So that was, I think, the initial feeling that we can do a show where, you know, more canvas, more real estate to tell a story, more characters, and specifically spend more time with your characters and articulate their journeys in a different way than you do in a movie, make them go through different nuances and gray areas that normally in film you're a little more limited, you know, you have a character and you have to basically stick.

通常电影中一个角色只能完成一条成长线。

There is a transformation, generally you have to stick to one arc.

而剧集能提供更多可能性。

Series give you, you know, more possibilities.

而且说真的，我认为这样能更好地讲述故事。

And really, it's to articulate the story better, I think.

我再补充一些背景信息，最初导演斯科特的版本是四小时。

I'll give more context to that, which is that it to the first director, Scott, was four hours.

安迪拍了很多素材，我特别喜欢这点，因为这样我们就有大量素材可以雕琢。

Andy shoots a lot, and I love that because then we have a big, you know, a lot of mud to chisel, basically.

对吧？

Right?

去塑造。

To mold.

去塑造。

To mold.

去塑造。

To mold.

我必须说，把它压缩到电影能承受的时长——对我们来说是两小时四十五分钟——这个过程非常痛苦。

And I have to say that it was very painful to bring it down to what a film can bear, which was, in our case, two hours forty five.

还是太长了。

It was still too long.

如果你现在问我，

If you ask me now,

我我，

I I,

你知道，

you know,

还是太长了。

it was still too long.

但原版有四小时。

But the original was four hours.

我们当时其实很慌。

We we panicked, actually.

当我们准备《小丑回魂2》的时候。

When we were prepping IT two.

我记得有一次和Gary Doberman开会，他当时和我们一起写剧本，我们三人在筹备《小丑回魂2》期间多伦多的一个周末决定，要向工作室提交《小丑回魂2》和《小丑回魂3》的计划，我们对这个方案感到非常兴奋。

I remember having this meeting with Gary Doberman who was writing the script with us, and the three of us decided a weekend in Toronto while we were prepping IT Chapter Two that we would present to the studio IT Chapter Two and IT Chapter Three, and we were very excited with our plan.

我们把方案提交给工作室后，工作室直接否决了。

And we presented it to the studio, and the studio said, absolutely no.

你们要拍续集

You're gonna do jumped

你的第二部剧本很长吧

was your two a long script.

我记得

I remember.

那确实是个可以分成两部来拍的剧本，没错

It was a it was a script that could be actually divided in two, and yeah.

我现在想起来了

I remember now.

是啊

Yeah.

真是见鬼，我完全忘了这回事。

Completely heck, I completely forgot about that.

但它当初是以两部电影的形式提出的。

But it was presented as two movies.

你对它的热情本身就说明了一切。

And your passion for it just speaks volumes.

所以我忍不住好奇，到底是什么特别吸引你进入《它》的宇宙？

And so I I just can't help but wonder, like, what attracts you to the It universe specifically?

这个故事的哪些创意点如此激发你，以至于你想拍八小时长的电影？

What about that story sparked so much for you creatively that you're wanting to do, like, eight hour films?

我想这要追溯到...我想这要追溯到读原著的时候。

I think it goes back I think it goes back to to reading the book.

我们是在人生那个阶段读的书，你知道，就像童年和青少年时期那些会魔法般烙印在你心里的东西。

We read the book in that era of your life where, you know, like, you're imprinted with it in a magical way, you know, in your childhood and your early teens.

你读到的喜欢的东西会永远伴随你，尤其是你享受的那些，你知道这在你的余生不一定会再发生？

Everything that you read and you like stays with you forever, especially the things that you enjoy, that you like, and that doesn't necessarily happen the rest of your life, you know?

所有进入你生命的事物，无论是阅读还是所见，都通过不同的渠道渗入，我想这些渠道多少都带着些理性主义的色彩。

Everything that comes to you, everything you read, you see enters through a different channel, I think, which is tinted a little bit with more rationalism.

童年时期或大脑尚未发育完全的青少年时期所接触的事物，会以不同的方式被吸收，它们会触及灵魂深处的某些部分并永远留存。我认为《它》——其实斯蒂芬·金的许多作品都是如此——确实留下了难以磨灭的印记。

What you see as a kid or as a, you know, undeveloped brain teenager is absorbed in a different way, and it hits, you know, some parts of your soul that stay with you forever, and I think that it, well, many many of the Stephen King books, but it definitely left a dent that it's not easy to to get rid of, you know?

虽然我用玩笑的口吻说，但这确实是你会用余生去情感承载的东西。

I'm saying it in a funny way, but it's it's really something that you carry for the rest of your life emotionally.

为什么是恐怖题材？

Why horror?

我实在无法解释清楚。

I can't really explain it.

我们大概从六七岁就开始接触恐怖元素，它已成为我们的热爱之一，我觉得我们天生就对这类叙事有共鸣。

We were we've been exposed to horror since we were like six and seven years old, and so it's one of our passions, and I think we really respond to those kind of narratives.

在书籍和电影中，恐怖元素伴随我们的记忆始终存在。

In books and in movies, horror has been with us as far as we remember.

要知道，我们是在阿根廷长大的。

You know, we grew up in Argentina.

我们是阿根廷兄妹。

We were Argentinian siblings.

在我们童年时期，只有四个电视频道。

And during our childhood, there were four channels, four TV channels.

其中有一个频道叫Canal Tresse

And one of these channels, Canal Tresse

十三频道。

Channel thirteen.

对。

Yeah.

十三频道。

Channel thirteen.

每周六有个叫《意外之旅》的节目，他们会播放来自各个时期、各个国家的恐怖电影。

Every Saturday had this show called Trip to the Unexpected, and they would show horror movies from any period of time from any country.

我猜那基本上就是他们能搞到版权的各种恐怖片大杂烩。

It was basically a hodgepodge of whatever license they could get their hands on, I'm guessing.

因此我们得以观赏那些早已从银幕上消失的精彩电影，在有线电视出现之前我们本无缘得见，比如一些经典的意大利恐怖片和美国B级片。

So we got to see incredible movies that were long gone from the screen that we have not had access to because this was before cable, you know, some classic Italian horror movies, some American b movies.

我知道。

I know.

一切。

Everything.

一切。

Everything.

应有尽有。

Everything was there.

这些作品都深深影响了我们，但回到这本书——我认为这种烙印正是让我们不断想要重新沉浸其中，并试图完整呈现这部层次丰富的宏大故事的原因。

So we got imprinted by all these things, but going back to the book, I think, you know, this imprint that we had, like, definitely was a reason for us to keep wanting to re immerse ourselves in it, and also, like, to make justice to, you know, the whole book, which is a huge story with a lot of layers.

事实上，我们对整个剧集长线发展的构想已经超越了原著，某种程度上我们的目标就是要揭开所有那些谜团。

And in fact, our intentions for the big arc of the series go beyond the book, and in a way, our aim, our purpose is to basically shed light on all those mysteries.

这是本充满隐喻的书，正是那些未知的谜题让它如此精彩且引人入胜。

It's a very cryptic book, and it's one of the things that make it so great and so magnetic, is that we don't know.

读完这本1200页的书后，失败者们最终对它究竟是什么仍一无所知。

And by the end of the book, after 1,200 pages, the losers end up having no no idea what it is.

所有的推测和调查实际上都没有得出任何结论。

And all the speculations and investigations don't really amount to anything.

它们确实成功构建了巨大的悬念，制造了大量谜团和问号，让读者和观众始终保持着高度紧张的状态。

They do amount to building big, big tension and a lot of mysteries and question marks that keep the reader and the viewer at the edge of the seats, of course.

所以我们在剧集中所做的，就像作为电影人，同时也作为读者和观众，我有必要去探索那些谜团并解答那些问题。

So what we did in the in the series is like, you know, as a filmmaker, but also as a reader and as an audience, I I have the need to go into those mysteries and answer those questions.

现在我们解答了其中一些问题，对另一些进行了推测，同时又创造了大量新的问号来保持这种效果。但我觉得这个故事特别的新颖之处在于我们给出了答案，而且我们提供的答案比书中实际提出的问题还要多。

Now, we answer some of them, we speculate about others, we leave like, you know, again, we create another plethora of question marks for the effect to keep working, But I think that's the new thing about this story in particular, is that we are giving answers, and we are giving more answers than the book actually poses.

在斯蒂芬·金的祝福下完成的，这总是让人感到如沐春风。

With the blessing of Stephen King, which is always, you know, it's always a soft hand on your shoulder.

我认为这个创意是要在水下建造一座冰山，在剧集结束时让观众感觉他们在两部电影和书中看到的只是更宏大神话体系的冰山一角。

And I think the idea, because one of the ideas is to create an iceberg under the the water, and at the end of this show, leave people with the feeling that what they saw on the two movies and in the book is just the tip of the iceberg of a bigger, bigger, bigger mythology.

当然这与另一面——宏观宇宙相关，书中正当地向我们隐藏了这一切，因为它的伟大之处就在于完全从人类视角出发。

Of course it relates to the other side, the macroverse, and everything that is rightfully hidden from us in the book, because it's like one of the other great things about is that it's all from the human perspective.

宏观宇宙是我们只能推测的事物，我们听到一些传闻，但除了书中的两个小片段外，我们从未真正去过另一边。

The macroverse is something that we only speculate, we hear things about, well we never go to the other side, except for two little parts in the book.

其中一段是我们跳入伊德的脑海，短暂地听到了他的想法——伊德的想法，她的想法，实际上它是个雌性生物。

One of them is like we jump into the head of Id and for a second we hear his thoughts, Id's thoughts, her thoughts, he's actually a female.

另一段是当某个失败者被死光击中时，我们看到他在宏观宇宙的虚空中穿行，最终进入那个巨大的光球或死光。

And the other one is when one of the losers is dead lighted and we see him like just rocketing through the void of the macroverse and going into this big ball of light or dead light.

顺便说，它可能是个雌性。

It may be a female, by the way.

我们并不确定。

We're not sure.

我们并不确定。

We're not sure.

最后，本·汉斯科姆去了大蜘蛛的巢穴，看到了许多卵，回来后他说：'这是个雌性。'

At the end of it, Ben Hanscom goes to the nest of the big spider and sees a lot of eggs, And he returns and says, it's a female.

他宣布道。

He announces.

但那可能是他幻觉的一部分，所以我们无从得知。

But that may be a part of his hallucination, so we don't know.

这是神秘性的一部分。

It's part of the crypticness.

这是谜团的一部分。

It's part of the mystery.

是或不是？

Is it or is it not?

这是'它'的真实形态吗？

Is this the real shape of It?

上帝是男性还是女性？

Is God a man or a woman?

我想知道，当你以全新的视角和时间段观点重新审视《末日逼近》时，在按照自己的方式重新创作过程中遇到了哪些创作挑战？

I am wondering what kind of creative challenges did you face when you revisited dairy with fresh eyes and a fresh time period point of view, like really crafting it in your own way again?

好问题。

Good question.

不。

No.

我认为挑战显然在于避免自我重复。

I think the challenge was obviously to not repeat ourselves.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这部剧与电影有很多共同点，但确实朝着不同的方向展开了新的演绎。

This show has a lot of places in common with the movies, but it definitely goes into spins into a different direction.

我认为创作挑战在于为喜爱电影和原著的观众呈现一组新角色。

I think creative challenge is presenting a new set of characters for people who love the movies and love the book.

引入一组新角色本身就是件具有挑战性的事，我们从一开始就清楚这一点。

Introducing a new set of characters is a challenging thing, so I think we knew that from the beginning.

就像任何电影一样，你必须让观众爱上你的角色，但这次还背负着前作——那些深受观众喜爱的原著和电影——的包袱。

Like in any movie, you have to make your audience love your characters, but this had the, you know, the burden, if you will, of a precursor, which was the movies and the book where, you know, people who love those characters, they love those characters.

而现在我们讲述的故事里，表面上看唯一的共同点只有这个小镇和那个怪物。

And now we're introducing a story where seemingly the only common denominator is the town and the monster.

这就是我们面临的挑战。

So that was the challenge.

所以挑战在于，如何让观众在情感上与这些角色产生共鸣？

So the challenge was, okay, how do we make people connect to these characters emotionally?

这与其他电影制作并无不同。

And it's not different from what you make in any other movie.

你只有有限的银幕时间让观众决定是否接受这些角色，是否愿意跟随他们的情感旅程，我认为我们做得很好。

You have limited time, screen time to for people to decide if they're on board with these characters, if they're on board with their emotional journeys, and I think we did a good job.

我认为，关键还在于德里镇这个锚点，我们虽然引入了一组全新的角色，但其中部分角色与我们已知角色存在血缘联系，这点非常重要，因为这本质上是在探讨代际创伤。

It's also, I think, because the anchor is Derry, is the town, we have clearly a new cast of characters, but with a few of our characters, there's a bloodline component to the characters we already know, and that's very important because, you know, it is about generational trauma.

确实如此。

And Yeah.

虽然史蒂夫写书时这个术语可能还不存在，但你知道，这就是它的本质。

I don't think this term existed when Steve wrote the book, but, you know, that's what it is.

要知道，潘尼怀斯出现就是为了恐吓新一代人。

You know, Pennywise shows up to scare a new generation.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这是个谜题，随着观众观看第一集和第二集，他们会逐渐理解，并开始看到与我们之前熟知的角色之间的联系。

Think it's a puzzle that people will understand as we go into episode one and episode two, they're gonna start seeing the connections with the characters that we knew before.

但小丑潘尼怀斯这个角色特别之处在于，我们不需要重复自己，因为它是个变形者。

But a plus we have with Pennywise in particular with IT, is that we don't need to repeat ourselves because IT is a shape shifter.

没错。

Yeah.

潘尼怀斯这个角色为我们提供了无尽的痛苦源泉。

The Pennywise thing gives us a fountain of, you know, endless pain.

所以这部分并不具有挑战性。

So that that part was not challenging.

事实上，感觉就像是'现在我们可以做电影里能做的所有事情了'。

In fact, it was like, okay, now we can do everything that we can do in the movies.

比如，还有多少种形态没被展现出来？

Like, how many incarnations were left out?

当然，这是不同的时代、不同的年份，恐惧也部分不同，因为那个时代发生的特定事件，孩子们会害怕这样或那样的事情，这其实并不构成挑战，反而是那些真正令人惊叹的机遇之一。

Of course, it's a different era, different year, like the fears are partially different because of specific things that were happening in the era, so the kids were scared of this or that, and that's, you know, it's a non challenge actually, it's one of those like opportunities that are really amazing.

我们可以创造更多生物，更多化身。

We can create more creatures, more incarnations.

好的。

Alright.

让我们深入探讨第一集里一些精彩的场景。

Let's get into some juicy scenes from episode one.

是啊。

Yeah.

天啊。

Oh my gosh.

这个开场场景里，我们在剧院观看《音乐人》时遇见了马蒂。

This opening scene where we meet Matty while he's watching the music man in the theater.

卡尔，发生什么事了？

Cal, what's going on?

又是克莱门特家那小子，汉克。

It's Clement's boy again, Hank.

这周已经是第三次抓到他溜进来蹭免费场了。

Third time this week I've caught him sneaking in for a freebie.

随他去吧。

Leave him be.

你见过那孩子那该死的家庭吗？

You ever see that boy's damn family?

所以这个案例你可能会奇怪为什么一个12岁的孩子还含着奶嘴。

So this is a case you would probably wonder why a 12 year old sucking on a pacifier.

对吧？

Right?

这正是那种能加速剧情发展的元素——一个12岁孩子含着奶嘴这种反常物件，会立即形成逻辑真空，迫使观众自行得出结论。

This is one of the things that is one of those accelerators where, you know, a foreign object like a pacifier with a 12 year old immediately creates like this vacuum of logic where you have to make your own conclusions.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

我选择奶嘴这个道具，是想让人们明白这孩子正在经历一些糟糕的事情，而这个奶嘴是能给他安慰的东西。

I wanted the pacifier because I wanted people to understand that this kid is going through some shit, and this pacifier is the thing that comforts him.

而且，一个12岁的孩子还带着奶嘴，意味着他没有正常的支持系统、情感依靠。我是说，发现他独自在电影院里吮吸着奶嘴，还带着黑眼圈——

And also, you know, someone that is 12 years old and still has this pacifier means that he doesn't have like a normal system of support, emotional support, and I mean, find him alone in a movie theater, sucking in a thing, he has a black eye.

这里有很多加速观众理解的元素。因为马蒂这个角色不会存在太久，我们需要观众尽快与他及其困境产生共鸣。

It's a lot of accelerators there that you see, and because Matty is a character that will not be here for long, we needed people to engage with him and his predicament as fast as possible.

这确实很有效。

And it's effective.

你看到那个奶嘴就会立刻意识到：这孩子不对劲。

You see that pacifier and you're like, oh, that boy ain't right.

我大一所有的心理学课都在讲这种案例——

All of my first year psych classes were like

这也很揪心，就像一记重拳，真的能瞬间击垮你的心理防线。

It also breaks your heart, you know, it's like a low blow there because, you know, it's it really melts your heart.

就像明明是个大孩子了，却还紧紧抓着泰迪熊之类的安抚物不放。

It's like someone that that is like a grown kid, but he's still hanging on to that, like if it was like a teddy bear or something.

嗯

Mhmm.

而且他的情况只会越来越糟

And and things only get worse for him.

他自己也意识到了，因为他明显为此感到羞耻

And he's he's aware because he's clearly ashamed of it.

他一直在试图藏起它

He keeps hiding it.

可怜的家伙

Poor guy.

但他仍然需要它

But he still needs it.

最初的构想是设计一个原创的音乐场景

So the original idea was to have an original musical scene.

安迪想拍摄一个音乐场景，因为我们热爱音乐剧，但遗憾的是我们没有足够的资金来实现

Andy wanted to shoot a musical scene because we love musicals, but sadly, we didn't have the money to do so.

所以节目编剧杰森·富格斯、布拉德和凯莱布·凯恩推荐了《音乐人》，因为这是华纳的版权作品，而且他们特别喜欢《麻烦》这首歌。

So Jason Fugues and Brad, Caleb Cain, who are writers on the show, suggested Music Man because it was a Warner title and because, you know, they love Trouble, this this song.

1962年出品。

1962 also.

对。

Yeah.

从1960年开始的。

From 1960 It

简直是完美契合。

was a perfect Perfect.

天作之合。

Perfect fit.

这个选择太棒了，《音乐人》本质上讲述了一个外来者如何揭露并打破小镇表面宁静的诺曼·洛克威尔式生活，暴露出一直潜藏的矛盾暗流。

I mean, it is such a great choice because the Music Man is fundamentally about an outsider who comes to a town and uncovers and disrupts what had been a placid somewhat Norman Rockwell like existence by exposing the ley lines of conflict that had always laid beneath the surface.

没错。

Yeah.

罗伯特·普雷斯顿就是音乐界的潘尼怀斯。

Robert Preston is the Pennywise of of music.

发型也很相似。

Similar hair.

好吧。

Alright.

让我们进入麦迪搭上一户好心人家便车的场景。

Let's get into the scene with Maddie as he finds a nice family to give him a ride.

这个场景我特别有感触，心想：好吧。

This is a scene in particular that I thought, okay.

不是在样片阶段，但当他们看到剪辑好的剧集时，我们肯定会接到电话。

Not during the dailies, but when they see the cut episode, we're gonna get a call.

我们肯定会接到电话。

We're gonna get a call.

有趣的是，虽然这是第一集，但我们最后是打乱顺序拍摄的。

And the funny situation is, although this is episode one, we ended up shooting it out of order.

我们已经拍摄了三集，然后罢工发生了，接着我们拍了这一集。

We had shot three episodes, then the strike happened, and then we shot this episode.

所以至少制片方在强度方面已经有所心理准备。

So at least the studio was had been warmed up in the sense of intensity.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们已经看过前三集了。

They had seen three episodes already.

他们的反应是：好吧。

They were like, okay.

这些家伙真够激烈的。

These guys are intense.

但当我们给他们看这个时，我就想，哦，我们肯定会接到电话的。

But when we show them this, I'm like, oh, we're gonna get a call.

结果我们得到了掌声。

And we we got an applause.

非常令人印象深刻。

Most impressive.

是啊。

Yeah.

这是个很棒的场景。

It's a great scene.

我觉得它的每一层都非常能唤起你们探讨的所有主题。

Like, I think every layer of it is just very evocative of all the themes that you're playing with, you know.

核心家庭的颠覆，生育的恐怖，同时还融入了冷战元素作为底层隐喻。

The nuclear family being flipped up, the horror of childbirth, and then also tying in sort of the cold war aspect in the underlying thing.

所以我很想多听听这个场景的构建过程，以及为什么采用这种特定的叙事节奏。

So I just I would love to just hear more about the construction of this sequence and why it moves in this certain way.

我认为一切都始于我们的怪物及其行为模式。

I think it all starts with our monster and its MO.

嗯。

Mhmm.

要知道，潘尼怀斯是个操纵者，同时又极具顽皮本性。

You know, Pennywise being a manipulator and someone with a very playful nature.

它会杀死你，但在此之前，它会确保你体内充满足够的肾上腺素。

It will kill you, but before, we'll make sure that, you know, you're seasoned with enough adrenaline.

它的手段就是营造一个看似安全无害的场景。

And this is what it does, is like creates a situation that is apparently safe and innocent.

何不向我们新朋友展示下你是个多棒的小拼写家呢？

Why don't you our new friend what a good little speller you are?

拼写'bungalow'（平房）。

Spell bungalow.

B u n

B u n

然后场景就会慢慢陷入不祥与恐怖之中。

Then it just, like, slowly descends into this ominousness and horror.

我的小荡妇跑掉了。

There goes my little harlot.

我告诉你，就算你试了也粘不住那双腿。

Couldn't glue those legs together if you tried, I tell you.

让我想起了她母亲。

Reminds me of her mother.

这就是场景的构建方式，你明白吧。

And that's how the scene is built, you know.

所以它从如何做到这一点开始，以创造合适的调味效果。

So it starts with how would it do this to create the right seasoning.

这是逐渐陷入疯狂的过程，你懂吗。

It's a slow descent into madness, you know.

就像一切都很美好，是个健全的核心家庭，正如你所说，非常温馨有爱，然后开始发生一些奇怪的小事。

It's like everything is fine, and it's a wholesome nuclear family, as you said, very inviting and warm, and then strange little things start to happen.

这是一步一步来的。

And it's a step by step.

首先，麦蒂和观众一起被提醒这个时代的恐惧主要与核攻击和辐射有关，特别是出生缺陷。

First, Maddie is reminded of the state of things along with the audience that the fears involved in this era are so much about nuclear attack and radiation, specifically birth defects.

辐射带来了全球性风险，会导致高度异常的先天缺陷。

Radiation poses a global risk, resulting in highly unusual birth defects.

肯尼迪总统爸爸，

President Kennedy Dad,

我们能看点别的吗？

can we put something else on?

所以这是某种我们无法避免的事情，你懂的。

So it's something that we couldn't, like, avoid, you know.

这是冷战时期，人们对核攻击、鸟龟之类的东西充满恐慌。

This is the cold war, people are have panic of nuclear attack and bird the turtle and whatnot.

尤其是孩子们，我无法想象在那个时代当孩子是什么感觉——每天都被提醒核弹随时可能落下。

The kids, especially, I can't imagine what would it be being a kid in that time where, like, every day you're reminded that a nuclear bomb might appear might fall any day now.

你只能躲到桌子底下。

You just have to go under the table.

所以我们某种程度上利用了这种恐惧。

So we we kind of exploited that.

这绝对是在利用这一点，我们，你知道的，借此创造了一个令人难忘（但愿如此）且恐怖的场景。

It is exploiting that definitely, and we, you know, exploited that to create a a nice memorable, hopefully, memorable horrifying scene.

当然还有那个肝脏。

And the liver, of course.

每次看到那个肝脏都让我毛骨悚然。

The liver is what gets me every time.

就是每次

It's just every

呃，我想用一些这个家庭会有的元素，奇怪的是他们好像是从寒冬野餐回来的。

Well, Well, I wanted to use like elements that that family would have, like strangely, they come from some kind of picnic in the middle of winter.

所以这也是它的作用，你知道，比如后面有个雪橇，还有野餐篮之类的东西，然后拿走了肝脏。

So that's that's the thing that it does also, know, it's like there's a sled on the back and there's like, you know, picnic baskets and stuff, and takes the liver.

这已经说不通了。

That doesn't make sense already.

为什么他们是从哪里来的？

Why why where do they come from?

我们身处暴风雪中的户外。

We're in the exterior, in the middle of the snowstorm.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且那肝脏美味极了。

And the liver was delicious.

我想不出比肝脏更可怕的东西了。

I couldn't think of of anything more horrible than than liver.

我显然给吉尔莫看过这个。

And I showed this to Guillermo, obviously.

吉尔莫·德尔·托罗，他是我一直敬仰的人，我总会把自己做的每件事都给他看。

Guillermo del Toro, one of my he's you know, I always look up to him and try to show him everything I do.

他的反应是‘太棒了’，不过确实。

And he was like, that's amazing, but yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

放一只苍蝇，盖上盖子。

Put a fly, cover on.

放一只苍蝇。

Put a fly.

插一面旗子。

Put a flag.

盖好了。

Covered on.

你知道，这样就圆满了。

You know, it just completes.

这算是敲定了。

It seals the deal.

你听到苍蝇声，就能知道那块肝闻起来像屎一样。

You hear a fly, you can tell that that liver smells like shit.

哦，别说了。

Oh, stop it.

那些音效，比如当她的手指伸进去时你能听到那种滑腻的黏液声，让我全身起鸡皮疙瘩。

The sound effects, like, when her fingers go in and you can the slippy slime in this of it, it just it gives me full body chills.

这就是兄弟姐妹之间会做的事。

And that's the kind of things that siblings would do to each other.

她对麦蒂这么做，但如果麦蒂不在场，她就会对她弟弟这么做。

She does it to Maddie, but if Maddie wasn't there, she would do it to her little brother.

嗯。

Mhmm.

关于这个场景，我要补充一点。

I'll add one thing about this scene.

这对我们很重要，对安迪来说也很重要，第一集要以一个重磅炸弹开场，某种程度上，这就像电影里的触发事件。

It was important for us, and it was very important for Andy to start the first episode with a big bang because in a way, it's the inciting episode just like we had in the movies.

你知道，在电影里，先是乔治被小丑吃掉，第二部电影里是艾德里安·梅隆遇袭，然后是小丑。

You know, in the movies, first, had Georgie, you know, being eaten by Pennywise, and in the second movie, we had the attack on Adrian Mellon, and then Pennywise.

我们需要在开头来点那种直击要害的冲击，让他惊呼'这他妈什么情况？'

We needed like something like that kick in the the groin at the beginning that he's like, what the fuck?

这感觉就像，这里并不安全。

And it's like not this is not safe.

对任何人来说，这都不是一个安全的世界。

This is not a a safe world for for anyone.

当然，情况还会变得更糟。

And it gets worse, of course.

如果你们看了这集就会明白，后面还有一次类似的'致命打击'，你懂的。

If you people saw the episode, you you will understand that there's another kick in the balls later that acts in the same way, you know.

你以一个震撼性事件开场，让所有人都紧张起来。

You start with a shocking event that gets everyone on their toes.

而这仅仅是第一集。

And that's just episode one.

想象一下。

Imagine.

想象一下。

Imagine.

想象一下。

Imagine.

想象一下。

Imagine.

是啊。

Yeah.

说到这个，我们得谈谈最后电影院那场戏。

And speaking of, we've gotta talk about that final movie theater scene.

我是说，那简直是又一记重击。

I mean, that was just another kick in the groin.

把手给我。

Give me your hand.

我们来谈谈选择杀死观众在这集开头以为是你们新'废柴联盟'的决定。

Let's talk about the choice to kill off what the audience thinks going into this episode is your new Losers Club.

对吧？

Right?

比如这些就是我的角色团队。

Like this this is my band of characters.

这些是我要一起共事的人，但事实完全不是这样。

Here's who I'm gonna roll with, and that is not in any way the case.

所以谈谈这个选择吧。

So talk about that choice.

是的。

Yeah.

这个想法再次强化了那种打击感，就像乔治的死亡、第一二部中阿德里安·梅隆的死亡，以及第一集中对麦迪的袭击那样。

So the idea again is like to to an augmented effect of the kick in the groin that was the death of Georgie, the death of Adrian Mellon in one and two, and the attack on on Maddie in episode one.

我们曾考虑用一场大爆炸结束这一集，以此放大那种'无人安全'的感觉。

We thought of ending the episode with a big blast that sort of magnifies that sense that nobody is safe.

还有什么比呈现一组让观众以为会成为本季后续主角的角色，然后在集末把他们全灭更好的方式呢？

So what a better way of doing it than presenting a set of characters that people believe that are the will be the protagonists of this series for the rest of the run and kill them all at the end of the episode.

就是感觉这样才对。

It just felt right.

马克，这要追溯到，你知道的，既要尊重你已完成的作品，又避免自我重复并保持观众的新鲜感，这之间的微妙平衡。

It goes back, Mark, to, you know, it's the thin line between honoring the work you've done, but not repeating yourself and keeping people on on their toes, you know.

保持观众警觉的最佳方式就是突然中断。

Best way to keep people on their toes is by cutting them off.

所以绝对

So Definitely

一种颠覆。

a subversion.

我认为观众，你知道，我们尽可能在一集电视剧允许的范围内让观众与这些角色建立情感联系，然后，突然反转。

And I think people, you know, we do as much as possible, as much as an hour of television allows you to engage emotionally with these characters, and then, you know, we pull the rug.

我们拭目以待观众的反应。

And we'll see what people think.

效果很好。

It was good.

非常有效。

It was effective.

安迪，我记得你之前说过，你在恐怖片中运用恐怖与幽默的手法是为了让观众保持警觉。

And I think, Andy, you said before that you use horror and humor in horror as a way to keep audiences on their toes.

而这次，你知道的，是要彻底让他们措手不及。

And in this case, you know, take their toes off.

你是如何平衡这种氛围营造的？

How did you balance that kind of buildup?

因为影片中有这么多有趣的细节，我们又建立了如此亲密的关系。

Because there's so many funny little bits and we have all this intimacy.

这种理念如何引导出电影结尾影院对决的场景，将幽默、恐怖和突然的冲击融合在一起？

How does that philosophy kind of lead into the movie theater showdown at the end of trying to mix humor, horror, and then wham?

我认为始终有一条界限，你知道的。

I think there's always a line, you know.

你可以运用幽默。

You you can use humor.

真正的最终打磨是在剪辑室里完成的。

I mean, the real final refinement is in the edit room.

当你在片场给予演员自由发挥空间时，你们会即兴产生一些想法，你会觉得这个很有趣。

When you're on set and you give freedom to the actors and you and you come up with ideas on set and you think, this would be funny.

当然，从一开始就存在一种自我审查的意识，因为你心里大致有条界限。

Of course, there is a there is a sense of self censorship that comes from the beginning because you you kind of have a line.

我们能加入多少幽默元素，又不会让人觉得这里的一切都不严肃？

How much humor can we put without giving, you know, a sense that nothing here is serious?

所以我不知该如何用语言表达，但我们总能找到那条界限。

So I I don't know how to to express it in words, but there's always a line that we find.

如果在拍摄时没把握好——比如多拍了一个玩笑或一个夸张的滑稽场面——在剪辑室你肯定会发现这个问题。

And if you don't find it in the shoot because you you shot one joke too many or one like slapstick moment too many, you will definitely find it in the edit room.

而且到了那个阶段，你已经有了些距离感，能看到所有片段如何组合，对整个剧集会有一个宏观把握。

Also, you're, you know, at that point, you have some distance, you see all the pieces coming together and you have like a, you know, a real overlook, overview of what the episode is.

因此在剪辑室里调整这些元素会更容易些。

So it's easier to calibrate those things once you're in the edit room.

我认为要用语言定义的话，就是属于现实基调的幽默有个度，你可以往前多推一点或收回来些，但我对那条界限在哪里有种直觉。

I I think that to define it in words, there's a level of humor that belongs to a grounded reality that you can always like play a little further, a little back, but you have a, I have a kind of a sense of where that line is.

同样因为斯蒂芬·金对我们的影响，你看，当你学习如何讲故事时，总会受到某些事物的影响。

Also because of the imprint that Stephen King had on us, I, you know, when you learn how to tell a story, it always, you know, you're always influenced by things.

而斯蒂芬·金对我来说，是第一个证明恐怖与幽默可以共存的人。

And Stephen King, for me, was the first indication that horror and humor can live together.

这归根结底是人性使然，即使在最黑暗的时刻，喜剧或笑声也是必要的。

It also boils down to human nature, you know, it's like comedy or laughter are necessary even in the darkest moments.

人们会在葬礼上讲笑话，本质上是因为这是一种应对机制。

People tell jokes in funerals, basically because it's a coping mechanism.

这是你释放痛苦和紧张的方式。

It's how you, you know, release the pain and the tension.

一点幽默总能提醒我们自身的处境。

A little humor always reminds us of our condition.

安迪和芭芭拉，非常感谢你们今天加入我们。

Andy and Barbara, thank you so so much for joining us today.

这次交流非常愉快，我们迫不及待想下周和你们一起探讨第二集了。

This was so much fun, and we can't wait to get into episode two with you next week.

马克公主，非常感谢你。

Princess Mark, thank you so much.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我们下周同一危险时间、同一危险地点再会，继续与穆斯基蒂夫妇畅聊第二集。

We'll be back next week, same perilous time, same dangerous place, chatting with the Muschietti's about episode two.

此外，我们还将邀请概念艺术家兼生物设计师文森特·普罗斯加入，他正是将德里镇一些最令人毛骨悚然的造物赋予生命的人。

Plus, we'll be joined by Vincent Prose, one of the concept artists and creature designers who brought some of Derry's creepiest creations to life.

下周见。

See you next week.

《欢迎来到德里》播客由HBO与Spoke Media联合制作。

The It Welcome to Derry podcast is the production of HBO in collaboration with Spoke Media.

本节目由我马克·伯纳丁与普林西斯·威克斯共同主持。

The show is hosted by me, Mark Bernardin, and Princess Weeks.

詹娜·伯内特是我们的高级制片人，苔丝·瑞安是监制。

Jenna Burnett is our senior producer, and Tess Ryan is our supervising producer.

我们的副制片人是Addy Vaughn，由Montserrat Rodriguez协助。

Our associate producer is Addy Vaughn with help from Montserrat Rodriguez.

音效设计与混音由Sami Syret负责。

Sound design and mix by Sami Syret.

Spoke Media的执行制片人是Aliyah Tevakolian。

Our executive producer for Spoke Media is Aliyah Tevakolian.

特别感谢HBO Max播客团队的Michael Gluckstadt、Alison Cohen Sarokotch、Kenya Reyes和Erin Kelly。

Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Alison Cohen Sarokotch, Kenya Reyes, and Erin Kelly from the HBO Max podcast team.

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.

下周见。

See you next week.