牛仔都去哪儿了：文学男性陷入危机了吗？

大家好，欢迎收听由读者支持的《洛杉矶书评》带来的Larb广播时间。我是主持人凯特·沃尔夫，与我共同主持的是梅黛亚·奥切尔和埃里克·纽曼。

Hello, and welcome to the Larb Radio Hour brought to you by reader supported LA Review of Books. I'm your host, Kate Wolf, and I'm joined by my cohosts, Medea Ocher and Eric Newman.

你好，凯特。

Hi, Kate.

你好，凯特。大家好。本周我们将进行一场特别谈话节目，主题是‘所有的牛仔都去哪儿了？’。这里的‘牛仔’指的是男性作家和读者——过去一年里全国都在恐慌他们正在消失。男性不再阅读小说了。

Hi, Kate. Hi, you guys. And this week, we're doing a special chat show, on the subject of where have all the cowboys gone? And the cowboys, in this case, are, male writers and readers who there has been a national panic about in the last year ceasing to exist. Men are no longer reading fiction.

他们不再像以前那样写小说了。他们失去了作为当代杰出小说家的主导地位，还是并没有？这就是我们今天要讨论的话题。要知道，我本来不会太在意这种论点，直到最近和一位男性作家朋友喝咖啡时，他解释为什么自己的书卖不出去时，引用了乔伊斯·卡罗尔·欧茨2022年的一条推文（抱歉，是推文），大致是说她的文学经纪人朋友无法让编辑阅读白人男性写的书。所以，如果不是听到朋友亲口重复，并用它部分解释自己作品失败的原因，我根本不会意识到最近媒体大肆宣扬的‘白人男性正在失去作家和读者地位’的说法有如此大的影响力。

They're no longer writing fiction the way they were. They have lost their supremacy as the preeminent novelists of our time, or have they? That is what we're gonna be talking about today. You know, I would never have really given this argument much thought until I was having coffee, with a friend recently who is a male writer and in explanation for why he had not been able to sell a book, he referenced this Joyce Carol Oates quote or tweet, sorry, from 2022 about you know, that was just an aside, an anecdote about how a friend of hers who was a literary agent said, you know, he could not get editors to read books by white men. And so I wouldn't have thought that, you know, this media circus that's happening recently with the repetition of this idea that white men are losing their hold as writers and and certainly as readers had that much, you know, purchase until I had a friend repeating it to me and giving it as a partial explanation of why his book had failed to sell or generate much interest.

因此，当我看到这种观点在我认识的人心中扎根时，我觉得有必要展开讨论这个话题。但你们能不能先详细说说这个论点具体是什么？埃里克，不如从你开始？

So when I saw it take hold in someone I knew, I thought, oh, it is important to expand and talk about this. But why don't you guys if you could, like, tell me more about what the argument is, that would be a great place to start. Eric?

好的。我觉得这和英国的情况类似。我最早注意到这类讨论是在今年五月或六月，当时有一家名为Conduit Books的出版社宣布成立，初期主要出版男性创作的文学小说和回忆录，我记得还特别强调35岁以上的男性作者。

Yeah. I mean, I I think that it's like it's similar to UK. Kind of my entry into this discourse was kind of back I wanna say this was back in May or June when there was an announcement that there was a a particular press that was opening. The press was called Conduit Books that was going to initially, at least initially, focus on publishing literary fiction and memoirs by men. And there was also, I believe, a particular emphasis on men 35.

我和丈夫（剧透警告：他从事图书出版业）吃早餐时聊到这个，我俩都觉得有点好笑——这是什么操作？但在那篇关于新出版社的报道出来后，我开始看到更多所谓的‘深度文章’讨论两个问题，正如你提到的凯特。一是文学小说存在‘危机’（我们对此持保留态度），男性作品出版量远不如女性；二是如你指出的，这似乎特指白人男性。

And this came up in breakfast conversation with my husband who, spoiler alert, is in book publishing. And we were both kind of laughing about this a little bit that it was like, what? Like but then the more like, after that article came out, that kind of notice about this new this new publisher or imprint, I started to see a lot more, quote, unquote, think pieces about two things, which is kind of what you propose, Kate. So there's this crisis in again, we're using scare quotes around crisis, but there is this, quote, unquote, crisis in literary fiction where men are not getting published nearly as much as their female counterparts. And I think, Kate, the other thing that you point out is it does appear to be white men.

换种说法就是：布鲁克林‘乔纳森时代’的统治——比如乔纳森·勒瑟姆、乔纳森·萨弗兰·福尔、弗兰岑那种——

And I guess another way of framing this is that the the kind of reign of the Brooklyn Jonathans, you know, the, like, Jonathan Letham, Jonathan Safran, Franzen, that that kind of era of

还有乔纳森·艾姆斯。

Jonathan Ames.

对，乔纳森·艾姆斯。这里还有个支线话题：这些乔纳森中有不少人已经转行去写影视剧了。我觉得这确实值得探讨，不过可能超出了当前讨论范围。但这类……

Jonathan Ames that which is also another side quest here could be talking about how a number of those Jonathan's have now just transitioned to writing for TV and film. So I think that may be there I think there's actually something there, but that's a little bit beyond the purview of what we're talking about right now. But these kind of I

我不这么认为。实际上我觉得这非常重要。

don't think it is actually. I think it's very important.

好的。哦，好吧。所以待定。但是，你知道，就是那种非常标志性的大卫·福斯特·华莱士式的。对吧？

Okay. Oh, okay. So TBD. But, you know, where the or the very kind of iconic David Foster Wallace. Right?

所以这些是那些占主导地位、被大众文化广泛认可的白人年轻男性作家，他们代表了文学小说的形象。我想说，查克·帕拉尼克是另一个例子。他们代表了后二月、可能是二月后立即出现的文学景观。在当代文学小说中已经没有这种情况了。所以我认为这是一种焦虑，就是说，没有白人年轻一代。

So these were these dominating, very mass cultural recognized white younger male writers who were emblematizing the literary fiction. I would say of the I mean, Chuck Palahniuk is another one. They they emblematized the post February, immediate post February maybe fiction landscape. There's no version of that in contemporary literary fiction. So I think that's one anxiety is that, like, there are no white A younger generation.

说实话，没有正在崛起的年轻一代白人男性文学巨匠。然后这个

A younger generation of, to be honest, white male literary lions, that seem to be coming up. And then This

至少这是他们的说法。我们应该...我们应该...

is the claim, at least. I should we should we we

刚刚补充了一个说法。是的。

just added a claim. Yeah.

据称是这样。对吧？

And allegedly to this. Right?

是的。是的。没错。让我们先把说法摆出来，然后我们可以，你知道，仔细斟酌

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Let because we could let's put out the claim first, and then we can, you know, chew over

没错。完全正确。所以我们完全不赞同这些说法。这仅仅是他们焦虑的内容。

it. Yes. Exactly. So none of that we are endorsing none of this at the top. This is just what the anxieties are.

所以第一个焦虑是，没有新一代的白人男性文学巨匠，类似于我们过去可能看到的那种。另一个焦虑是分开的，我不确定是否完全相关，那就是年轻男性不阅读文学小说。也就是说他们不创作文学小说或不被出版是这种说法的另一种表述，而且男性不阅读文学小说。

So anxiety one is that there is no new generation of white literary male lions that would be similar to what we may have seen in the past. And the other anxiety, which is separate and I'm not sure entirely correlated, is that young men are not reading literary fiction. So it's that they are not producing literary fiction or being published is another way of of stating that claim, and that men are not reading literary fiction.

但我觉得在我读过的许多文章中，这两件事是相互关联的，因为似乎存在这样一种假设：由于男性，尤其是白人男性，不再像以前那样被大量出版，这影响了男性的阅读选择——男性为什么要读女性写的书呢？

But I think those two things are, connected in a lot of the pieces I've read because there seems to be this assumption that because, you know, men and then especially white men are not being published in the way that they were, that is having some effect on what men read because why would men read women?

是的，完全正确。你知道，为什么

Yes. Absolutely. Know, why how

男性无法与这股女性涌入的浪潮产生共鸣，他们怎么可能共鸣呢？他们那些男性榜样都去哪儿了？所以我们必须出版更多，尤其是白人男性作家的作品，让这些可怜的男性有书可读。我认为这某种程度上是隐含的论点。

men men men cannot identify with this huge, you know, influx of women, and how could they? Where are all their masculine models? So we must produce more, you know, especially white male writers for these poor men to read. And That I think that is a little bit of the implicit argument.

我还想指出，在我们三人为这次对话做准备时讨论的多篇文章中，一个共同的深层脉络是一种更深层次的文化焦虑，而我们谈论的这两个问题只是这种焦虑的症状。这种文化焦虑很大程度上可以归结为：为什么这么多白人男性及男性普遍支持特朗普，或者为什么他们似乎拥抱了一种——我们可以称之为有毒的男性气概，非常极端网络化的、安德鲁·泰特风格的 masculinity？而让这一代男性回归阅读小说，会是一种解药吗？你知道吗？就好像他们不读小说，这才导致了另一个引发重大文化焦虑的问题。

And I wanna also say that what appears in a number of the articles that the three of us were talking about as we were preparing for this chat as a kind of connective tissue is a deeper seated cultural a deeper seated cultural anxiety of which these two things we're talking about are symptoms. And that cultural anxiety is largely reduced to kind of why did all of these white men and men in general go for Trump, or why do they seem to be embracing a, we could say, toxic masculine, very extremely online, Andrew Tate style form of masculinity? And it would a return to the novel for such a generation of men be a curative? You know? So that it's like that they're not reading novels, and that's what's causing this other thing about which there is significant cultural anxiety.

也许如果他们读小说的话……我不知道。这可能是对该论点非常粗浅的表述。如果这些男性读小说，如果这些男性的小说得以出版，也许我们就不会陷入如今这种威权主义时刻。

And that maybe if they were reading novels I don't know. This may be a very vulgar presentation of the argument. If these men were reading novels and if these men were getting their novels published, maybe we wouldn't be in this authoritarian moment that we find ourselves.

这一点都不粗浅。这实际上就是很多这类文章所说的。你知道，文章里大概用三段讲男性读者数量的下降，然后就直接跳到特朗普了。大多数文章确实就是立刻这么写的。所以我不认为你在夸大其词。

And and that's not vulgar at all. That is literally what a lot of these pieces have said. The you know, it's like three graphs on the the decline of male readership, then straight to Trump. You know, that's that is most of them have that really just in there immediately. So I don't think you're being bullied.

好的。谢谢。

Okay. Thank you.

所以这就是那个论点。Daya，对这个论点你有什么要补充的吗？

So that's the argument. Daya, do you have something to add to that argument?

没有。我觉得……我觉得这已经概括得很全面了。

No. I think that I think that that sums it up.

好的。那你想谈谈你是否认为这是真的吗？

Okay. Do you wanna get into, if you think it's true?

是的，我们开始吧。如果我认为这是真的——我的意思是，我确实这么认为。我认为这里有多重因素在起作用。也许我们可以一个一个来讨论。

Yeah. Let's get into it. If I think it's true I mean, I so okay. I think there's a number of things going on here. And maybe we do we do one at a time.

第一，是否还有新一代的男性文学巨匠或领军人物，继承了像乔纳森们或大卫·福斯特·华莱士这样的人的衣钵。第二，男性是否在阅读。我想在深入讨论这是否属实之前，先补充一点。埃里克，你提到了，我认为这非常相关，就是正如你所说，许多那些乔纳森们转向了影视行业。我发给你的那篇文章——这是后来读到的——是莎拉·布鲁耶特写的，她基本上提出了一个论点，我认为从经济和唯物主义角度来论证这种情况很重要。

One being, are there still male male literary figures or lions of a new generation who have inherited perhaps the mantle of people like the Jonathan's or like David Foster Wallace. And then two are men reading. I think I think part of the equation that I want to toss in there before we get into, like, is this true or not? And then I think, Eric, you you mentioned, and I think this is very relevant, is that a number of, as you said, a number of those Jonathans went into film and TV. One of the pieces that I I sent you know, this was this was kind of late edition reading, but it's by Sarah Bruyette, who makes an argument that essentially, and I and I think presenting an economic and materialist argument about this situation is important.

但基本上，男性认识到文学生产和文学声望的经济效益正在走下坡路。换句话说，他们在一艘正在沉没的船上。所以他们离开了。通常，男性有机会离开，去追求其他创意领域、其他兴趣、其他生产模式，对吧？

But that essentially men what happened was that men recognized that the economics of literary production and literary prestige were on a downward slope. They were on a sinking ship, in other words. And so they got out. And usually, what happens is that men have the opportunity to get out and to pursue other creative fields, other interests, other modes of production. Right?

所以他们跳船了，因为他们看到那艘船正在沉没。那么谁填补了这个空间？因为当人们退出一个下滑的或经济不稳定的处境时，填补那个空间的是那些愿意忍受经济不稳定的人，而那些通常是女性和其他群体及工作者，对吧？

And so they they jump ship because they saw that that shit was sinking. And so what filled that space Because who fills that space when when people, exit a downward, or when people exit a precarious financial situation, the people who fill that space are people who are willing to live with a precarious financial situation, and those are women and other kinds of people and workers. Right?

以及其他边缘化群体。没错。这正是我们讨论的。对吧？所以这包括女性、同性恋者和有色人种。

And other I mean, marginalized people. Exactly. That's really what we're talking about. Right? So that would be women, gays, and people of color.

是的，完全正确。这让我想到教师。我在想，女性教师的人数——从小学到高中——我相信这个数字上升了，而男性教师的人数肯定下降了，可能出于类似你说的原因，迪娅。就像，这是一份非常艰难的工作。

Yeah. Exactly. I wonder, you know, it just makes me think of teachers. You know, I wonder if there's any corollary between the number of female teachers of all range, you know, from, like, grammar school up until high school because I'm sure that number has climbed and the number of male teachers I'm sure has declined, probably for similar reasons that you're saying, Dea. Like, it's it's just a really hard job.

如果你可以不做，你就不会做。你知道，可能类似于工厂工作，许多年来女性和移民接手了很多男性不再想做或必须做的工作，因为他们有了其他机会。

And and if you could not do it, you wouldn't. I you know, some probably in line with factory work, many things that, you know, women and immigrants have picked up over the years that, you know, men no longer wanna do or have to do because they have other opportunities.

是的。所以我认为，关于男性在出版、文学或更广泛的艺术领域是否同样有代表性的问题，部分是一个经济问题。就像，这一切发生的物质条件是什么？没有什么是发生在真空中的。所以我认为这不仅仅是一场文化危机。

Yeah. And so I think part of this this question about whether men are as represented in publishing or in literature or the arts at large is partly an economic question. Like, what are the materialist conditions in which any of this happens? And none of it happens in a vacuum. So I think it's not just a cultural crisis.

我认为这也是一场经济危机。

I think it's also an economic crisis.

是的。而且我认为——我相信——这也与教育有很大关系。我们现在正处于教育部被解散的时期。但根据我在一篇很有帮助的Vox文章中看到的数据，阅读者的数量通常在接受过大学教育的人中要高得多。嗯。

Yeah. And I think and I'm sure one that has a lot to do with education as well. And we're at a time where now, you know, the education department is being dismantled. But from some data that I saw in this very helpful Vox article, numbers of people who read were often much better, you know, for people who had gone to college. Mhmm.

总的来说，这个国家的人阅读量并不大。你知道，大约只有50%或更少的人一年至少读五本书。无论从哪个角度看，这个数字都不算理想。但我想说的是关于乔纳森的情况，另外我从Vox的文章中看到的数据显示：过去五年国家图书奖小说类获奖者中，有五分之四是男性。但问题是——他们都是白人男性吗？

And on the whole, the nation does not read men or women very much. You know, it's like 50% of people or less read at least five books a year. You know, that's not that's not a great number either way. But I but I just I guess I wanna say something about the Jonathan's and also this is some other data that I got from the Vox article is that when we're looking at who has won the National Book Award for fiction in the last five years, four out of the five winners have been men. But, you know, have they been white men?

不全是。但确实都是男性。所以我认为这又回到了一个根本问题：谁在社会中被重视？以及我们现在看到的反多元化、公平与包容的大趋势。有些文章无意中忽略了种族问题而只关注性别，但如果你仔细看数据，我认为男性在我看到的出版书籍中并不一定处于弱势地位。但问题在于——是特定类型的男性吗？

No. But they were men. So I again, I think it also goes back to a question of, like, who counts in society and the larger trend we're seeing of, you know, anti DEI. And I think some of these articles unwittingly kind of pass over race and just focus on gender, whereas, like, if you're really looking at the statistics, I don't think men are necessarily underrepresented in the books that I see coming out. But, yes, is it a certain kind of man?

而且是那种在文化上感到被围攻的男性——尽管某种程度上他们正处在权力巅峰，在这场巨大的反弹浪潮中。所以当我试图关心白人男性能否出书时，想到特朗普入主白宫、作为女性我的权利不断被剥夺，这种反差确实让人困惑。但我理解这种现象的成因。我觉得这也是媒体自我消耗、不断重复轶事的表现。Vox一月份那篇回应文章明确指出：女性购买80%小说这个统计数据已经被重复传播了几十年，而实际上美国很难获取按性别划分的图书销售数据。

And now one who feels culturally embattled, though, like, you know, he is at the height of his power in a way, in, you know, in this huge backlash. So just the irony of me trying to care about if a white man is publishing his book when, you know, Trump is in the White House and I have had more and more rights taken away as a woman is a little bit like a head scratcher. But I, you know, I I I understand what's happened. I think it's also the way media just eats itself and repeats anecdotes. That's another thing that the Vox article I read that's responding to this that was published in January made clear is that this 80% of fiction bought by women is a statistic that has repeated, like, for decades and is actually in The US, it is very hard to get numbers on book sales, you know, based on gender.

确实没有可靠的统计途径。所以这个数据的来源有点可疑。在英国，虽然能看到女性购买小说略多于男性，但绝达不到这些文章反复宣扬的80:20比例。

Right. There there isn't actually a way. So where the statistic came from is a little bit specious. But in The UK where, you know, there there were ways to see slightly more women bought fiction than men. But it it is not the 8020 that many of these articles are repeating.

首先我一定要称赞康斯坦斯·格雷迪在Vox发表的相关文章（你说的应该就是这篇），我觉得写得非常精彩。她特别指出这个统计是个'僵尸数据'，因为虽然经常被引用，但她核实事实时根本找不到依据。确实存在女性比男性阅读更多的倾向性差异，这可能也意味着她们购买更多小说——不过在Libby等电子阅读平台时代，这个问题可能更复杂。

I mean, I yeah. I think first of all, I definitely wanna call out that Constance Grady's article in Vox about this, which is what you're referencing, because I thought that it was really great. And that statistic, she specifically calls a zombie statistic because it's one that gets kind of trotted out. And yet when she tried to do the fact checking, she literally could find no basis for it. And so we get these kind of, yeah, there is a skewed difference where women tend to read more than men, which would indicate also, I guess, that they buy more fiction than men, though in the age of Libby and other sorts of things that may be a more complicated kind of question to answer.

但我认为这更像是在为当代文化焦虑寻找解药，而这种焦虑其实多年来一直起伏不定。比如回顾18-19世纪（美狄亚应该比我更了解这段历史），小说当时是女性文体，是专门为女性创作的。

But sure. I also think that it seems to me that this is more searching for a cure to the kind of contemporary cultural anxiety that we have, but one that is kind of looking at something that has vacillated over the years. You know, for example, if we look back at the kind of eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, Medea knows this material a little bit better, I think, than I do. But the eighteenth and nineteenth century, the novel is a female form. It's written for women.

特别是到维多利亚时代，这些小说的主要读者群和目标受众都是女性——即使创作者是男女比例均衡的作家（具体比例我不确定）。它们明确针对女性受众。我觉得这种情况到20世纪的现代主义和后现代主义时期有所改变，开始出现向另一个方向的摆动。虽然不是完全颠覆读者比例，但确实出现了更多像海明威、诺曼·梅勒、菲利普·罗斯这样我们可以称之为更具男性气质的作家，他们为男性读者写作。

By the time we get to the especially the Victorian era, right, these are our novels whose major readerships and whose intended audiences are women even if they are being written by a pretty I I actually wouldn't know the distribution, but a pretty well distributed mix of men and women as the producers. They're definitely targeted towards female audiences. I think that that maybe changes a little bit when you get into modernism and postmodernism where okay, I think that maybe changes a little bit when you get into modernism and postmodernism in the twentieth century where you do see a kind of swing maybe in the other direction. Again, not that we're totally upending the percentages of readerships, but where you definitely have both more I guess I would say, like, let's think of a Hemingway, for example, or a Norman Mailer, a Philip Roth, right, a kind of more, we might say, aggressively male writer who is writing to a male reader. Right?

今天我们读到的多篇文章中，很多人都提到《麦田里的守望者》这样的作品抓住了年轻男性读者，让他们看到了阅读小说的价值。所以我觉得这可能也是一种钟摆效应。但凯特，我完全理解你所说的：我们都能轻易列出一串著名男性作家，但当我想到这些人——珀西瓦尔·埃弗雷特、加思·格林威尔、王鸥汀（还有保罗·贝蒂，不过这可能更偏个人喜好，我不确定他是否像前三位那么主流）——他们都是有色人种和/或酷儿群体。

And there were a number of in some of the articles that we read for today, there are a number of people that reference, for example, Catcher in the Rye as being something that grabbed a young male reader and actually made him see the value of reading novels. So I think some of this might also be a bit of just a pendulum swing, but it's definitely not lost on me either, Kate, that what you're talking about is that, okay, none of us like, I did not struggle to come up with an off the hand list of, you know, very prominent male authors. But when I thought of who those people were, Percival Everett, Garth Greenwell, Ocean Vuong, right, in just those Paul Beatty, though, I think that's maybe more my own thing. I'm not sure how totally widespread I mean, I know he's very popular, but, you know, I don't think he's not quite as as mainstream as the other three. All of those are people of color and or gay people and or gay people of color.

你明白我的意思吧？

You know?

是的。不过我在想的是：对我们这代年长的千禧一代来说，最具代表性的作家是谁？我觉得对我来说显然是本·勒纳。

Yeah. But I was okay. But I was thinking of for my generation, you know, as a as a elder millennial, who is the most, like, synonymous writer with my age? And I think for me, that's Ben Lerner. That seems obvious to me.

当然。也许他不是那么主流，但至少在文学领域——你知道，不管怎么说，在那个阶梯上——他非常成功。我不确定。你知道，我并不认为他没赚大钱。他虽不是詹姆斯·帕特森，但他获得了麦克阿瑟天才奖。

Sure. Maybe he's not as mainstream, but he's incredibly successful at least in in in a literary, you know, whatever, ladder. I don't know. You know, it's not like I don't think he's making kajillion dollars. He's no James Patterson, but he's gotten the MacArthur genius.

我认为，你知道，他有教职。他的书由FSG出版。我确实觉得他的作品是某些人真正关心的大事。而且他是个白人直男。而我——我热爱他的作品。

I think that, you know, he has a teaching position. He's published by FSG. Like, I I do think his books are events that certain people really care about. And he is a white straight man. And I and I love his work.

而且我觉得他才华横溢。对我来说，我很难理解，因为你提到的许多男性作家，比如罗斯。我热爱菲利普·罗斯。你知道，我最喜欢的作家之一，我总是沉迷于他的作品，觉得‘哦，我还需要更多’的是丹尼斯·约翰逊。

And I think he's brilliant. And I guess for me, I have a really hard time because so many of the male authors that you mention, you know, like Roth. I love Philip Roth. I you know, one of my favorite absolute ever favorite writers who I always go on Jags, where I'm like, oh, I need more, is Dennis Johnson.

哦，当然。

Oh, sure.

你知道，一个白人男性，我认为他是有史以来最伟大的作家之一。当我读他的作品时，我并不会——并不是说我不去想自己是个女人。对我来说，写作或阅读也是一个让我自身身份大量消解的地方，或者我觉得自己包含了——阅读的那种奇特的共生关系让我感觉我就是那个角色，或者小说中你获得的很多东西是内在性，它某种程度上超越了外在身份，这才是最不可思议的地方。所以，我的意思是，你知道，这是我个人的感受，也许不是每个人都这样觉得，但我不觉得我需要只读和我一模一样的人写的书。而且我希望——我觉得对话中的那个方面，那种认为‘哦，人们太脆弱了’的观点——

You know, a white man who who I just think is one of the greatest writers ever. And when I read him, I don't really it's not that I I don't think about being a woman. I guess for me also, writing is a place or reading is a place where who I am dissolves so much or I am someone who feels that I contain, like, the the kind of weird symbiosis of of reading makes me feel that I am the character or so much of what you get in fiction is interiority where it kind of transcends, like, outer identity, and that's what's the most incredible thing about it. So this I mean, it's you know, that is my own personal thing, and I don't maybe not everyone feels that way, but I don't really feel like I need to read people that are just like me. And I wish that that I feel like that aspect of the conversation, the idea that, oh, people are so frail.

他们需要在书中找到完全映射自己形象的人物，这让我感到不安。

They need, you know, figures who exactly mirror them in books is upsetting to me.

是的。我完全理解你的出发点。但我认为这可能有点人性使然，就是想要读——一方面，我们常说文学的意义在于通过阅读小说踏入他人的体验，从而获得转变，对吧？但我不确定这是否总是每个人所寻求的。

Yeah. I mean, I completely understand where you're coming from. I think that might be a little bit kind of human nature, though, is, like, wanting to read the I mean, on the one hand, right, the thing that we always say about literature is that you're reading a novel in order to step into someone else's experience in a way that's transformative. Right? But I don't know that that's always what everybody is looking for.

但即便如此，我想对听众说，因为，再次强调，甚至在读到康斯坦斯·格雷迪的文章之前，我自己对此就有疑虑。所以我就自己做了一个非常不科学的数据挖掘，就是翻看我手机上的《纽约时报书评》。我看了三个方面：一是精装小说类的《纽约时报》畅销书榜单。在今天（2025年9月9日）的15本书中，有9位小说家是女性，6位是男性。好吧。

But but even so, I would just say, you know, for for listeners, you know, because, again, I I had my own doubts about this even before reading the Constance Grady piece. And so I was like, let me just do, like, a very unscientific data dive of my own, which was just going through the New York Times book review on my cell phone. So when I looked at three things, one would be the hardcover fiction New York Times bestsellers. So of that list, and it's a list of 15 for today, 09/09/2025, Nine of the 15 novelists were women, and six of them were men. Okay.

所以这看起来女性比男性多了大约50%，但比例也只是9比6，并不算悬殊。然而，当我看书评部分时（再次说明，这只是浏览手机，不全面），三篇小说书评全部是关于男性作者的。接着，我进一步看了一篇《纽约时报》的文章，关于今年秋季我们期待的10部小说，其中七部是男性所著，三部是女性所著。

So that would seem like we've got about 50% more women than men, but it's still not nine to six. It's not a wild ratio. When I looked, however, in the book review, and, again, this is just scanning through my phone, so it's not holistic. Of the three fiction reviews, all three were of male authors. And then when I further went into looking at one article from the New York Times, which was the 10 novels that we're looking forward to this fall, seven of them were by men, and three of them were by women.

所以我认为并不存在男性作品无法出版的危机。顺便说一下，那些男性作者中很多是像丹·布朗（你们许多人会记得他是《达芬奇密码》的作者）这样的作家。其他小说作者包括托马斯·品钦， again，他是一位年长的作家，算是文坛常青树。所以，基于这些数字，似乎我们并没有面临我们所谈论的那种危机，这确实让我觉得正在发生的事情几乎是一种幻象，而这种焦虑，正如凯特和美狄亚非常雄辩地指出的，是替代了某种其他恐惧，这种恐惧在当下被大肆煽动，我认为就是对所谓的‘替代’的恐惧，即白人男性对他们在一个文化中主导地位滑落感到焦虑，他们觉得这个文化越来越不再或以他们为中心反映他们的价值观。

So I don't think that there's quite this crisis in men not getting published. And by the way, a lot of those men, the novels were by Dan Brown, you know, who many of you will remember as the the Da Vinci Code author. The other novels were by Thomas Pynchon. You know, again, he's an older author, kind of a mainstay. And, you know, I again, it seems based on these numbers that we don't have quite the crisis that we're talking about, which does make me think that there's something almost phantasmatic about what's going on and that it the anxiety that's getting expressed as Kate and Medea have very eloquently said is standing in for some other fear that is very much being whipped up in this moment, which is, I think, this fear of, you know, quote, unquote, replacement, you know, that, like, white males feel anxious about a slipping a slipping position of dominance in a culture that they no longer or feel is less and less reflecting their values with them at the center of it.

我的意思是，我突然想到的是，这也没关系。一方面，这是事实，对吧，出版业的很多人是女性，是白人女性。这确实是事实。但正如你所说的，凯特，在我们讨论这个问题时值得思考的是，谁在白宫，他在做什么？而特朗普在过去几个月里做的一件事就是控制了肯尼迪中心，控制了国家艺术基金会（NEA），控制了国家人文基金会（NEH）。

I mean, that just occurs to me is okay. For one thing, it's true, right, that many people in publishing are women, are white women. That is that is true. But as you were saying, Kate, like, something to think about while we're talking about this is, like, who's in the White House and what is he doing? And something that Trump has done in the in the past months is take control of the Kennedy Center, take control of the NEA, take control of the NEH.

所以这些地方并没有危机，对吧？我的意思是，至少据我所知或了解，就谁在那里表演、他们在做什么以及他们在表彰谁而言，并没有危机。但这个危机很大程度上是被制造出来的，以便控制不仅是政治上的，也是文化上的。所以我也觉得这是一个有趣的时期。

And so there's not a crisis at those places. Right? I mean, I I at least not to my knowledge or awareness in terms of who is performing there and what they're doing and who they're honoring. But the the crisis was very much manufactured so that the control was not just political, it was also cultural. And so it also strikes me that this is a this is a funny time.

正如你所说，现在讨论文学男性的衰落是一个有趣的时机，因为它恰好与大规模的文化接管同时发生。

This as you said, this is a funny time to be discussing the loss of literary men, because it just just so happens to coincide with with a cultural takeover at large.

是的。而且，你知道，那个盒子，我……抱歉。谢谢你，康斯坦斯·格雷迪，在这个对话中给了我们这么多信息，但她也在看谁在出版业的顶层。是的，女性在出版业的中层职位上可能比男性多，但真正掌管这些公司的是谁？

Yeah. And even, you know, that that box, I I'm sorry. Thank you, Constance Grady, for giving us, so much in in this conversation, but, she was also seeing who was at the top of publishing. Yes. Women may outnumber men in, like, you know, mid level positions in publishing, but who actually, you know, are the executors of these companies?

通常是男性。那么真正做出最高决策的是谁？并不是女性在统治世界，而是男性。还有关于阅读文学小说和/或出版文学小说的焦虑，我也想说几句。

They're usually men. So who is really making the, you know, the highest decisions? It's not like it's women ruling the world. It's it's men. And I also something about the anxiety about reading literary fiction slash and or publishing literary fiction.

我只是想说，这个问题——只有小说（而且是文学小说）才能扩展意识——在我看来似乎有点脱离现实。你知道，这再次让人觉得，有点像你所说的关于特朗普和肯尼迪中心的事情，戴娅。比如，谁获得这些奖项真的重要吗？我的意思是，显然重要，因为似乎女性或有色人种不能有一个自主的空间而不成为问题。我不知道，就像，还有其他各种各样类型的写作。

I just wanna say it seems a little out of touch to me that this question that only fiction is the thing that could expand consciousness and literary fiction at that. You know, it's it's again, seems like why you know, a little bit, Deya, like what you're saying about Trump with the Kennedy Center. Like, does it really matter who gets these awards? I mean, clearly, does because it's like there there can be no there can be no autonomous place for women or people of color without it being an issue. I don't you know, like, there's such a giant range of other kinds of writing.

你知道，比如说，科幻小说对大脑或人性的益处就不如文学小说吗？就像，我提到的每篇文章——我意思是，我读的每篇文章都在谈论萨莉·鲁尼。每个人都应该读，男性应该读萨莉·鲁尼。就好像，为什么这是我们引用的唯一作者模型？即使是非虚构类书籍，我认为阅读非虚构类书籍也很棒。

You know, is science fiction, for instance, not as good for your brain or good for your humanity as literary fiction? Like, every article I mentioned I mean, every article I read was talking about Sally Rooney. Everyone should read men should be reading Sally Rooney. It's like, why is that the only model of author that we're referencing? Like, there even with nonfiction books, I think that reading nonfiction is great.

它很棒。比如，它给你背景。哲学呢？比如，为什么我们要专注于这一件事，在那里，是的，也许看起来女性已经获得了一个立足点，但这是不可接受的。所以，让我们，你知道，反击并确保，再次，男性统治这个领域。

It's amazing. Like, it gives you context. What about philosophy? Like, why are we focusing on this one thing where, yes, maybe it could seem like women have gained a foothold, but that is unacceptable. So let's, you know, blow back and make sure that, again, men rule this roost.

对。我的意思是，我在想，好吧。那么为了讨论起见，我们假设，如果这里面有一点点真相，人们是在回应什么？或者人们是在围绕什么制造焦虑，除了权力的丧失或地位的丧失？比如，如果这里真的有真相，也许有。

Right. I mean, I wonder okay. So for the sake of argument, let's let's say, like, if there is a kernel of truth in this, what is it that people are responding to? What or what is it that people are sort of creating the anxiety around other than, a loss of power or, a loss of standing? Like, is is there if there is a if there is truth here and there may be.

对吧？就像，我认为可能有一种情况，某些书就是没有它们以前可能拥有的市场。所以，是的，代理商和编辑不买它们，因为如果出版界以一种非常特定的方式运作，如果没有感知到的受众，也许一个白人男性作家就卖不掉他的书。也许那本书也很烂。但是，你知道，我们不会深入讨论那个。

Right? Like, I I think there may be a a way in which certain books just simply don't have the same market that they might have had before. And so, yeah, agents and editors aren't buying them because if the the publishing world works in a very particular way, if there's if there's no perceived audience, perhaps a white male writer can't sell his book. Perhaps the book sucks too. But, you know, we won't we won't go there.

但如果我们对此持宽容态度，你认为人们可能回应的那个真相核心是什么？如果存在的话。我也接受可能不存在这种情况。

But if we're being generous to this, what is the kernel of truth that you think some people might be responding to? If there is one. I'm open to there not being one.

我不...我不认为我会把这描述为一个真相核心。

I don't I don't know that I would describe this as a kernel of truth.

好吧。

Okay.

是的。但回到你刚才说的，我认为这实际上关乎声望。我认为这关乎什么是所谓的'最佳'的感觉，我们都知道这些奖项并非必要——这不是一个科学判定，比如国家图书奖选出的并不绝对是某一年出版的最佳小说作品。对吧？我的意思是，我们知道这一点，这对任何文学奖项来说都是如此，就像对任何电视或电影奖项一样。

Yeah. But to backtrack a little bit into something that you were saying is that I think it is actually about prestige. I think it's about this sense of what is, quote, unquote, the best, which we all know that these awards are they're not necessary this is not a scientific determination that, like, the National Book Award selects absolutely the best work of fiction that was published in a given year. Right? I mean, we know and this is as true of any literary award show as it is of any TV or film award show.

对吧？这里面有很多行业，你知道的，交易。我不是说这是邪恶的，但事实就是如此。对吧？所以我们知道这些都不是客观的科学判定。

Right? That there's lots of industry, you know, dealing. I'm not saying in a nefarious way, but it's just how it is. Right? So we know that these are not objective scientific determinations.

对吧？但我想回到凯特和你关于肯尼迪中心的讨论，我认为特朗普针对这类空间是有原因的。我认为更广泛地说，有一种看法认为文化现在正在颂扬女性。它在颂扬有色人种，颂扬LGBTQ群体，这对于那些自认为——可能没错——处于文化重要性和声望正中心的人来说是个问题。所以，你知道，因为他们没有抱怨的是，比如詹姆斯·帕特森，或者坦率地说，像斯蒂芬·金这样的人仍然是畅销书作家。

Right? But I think to get to what Kate and you were saying about the Kennedy Center, I think there is a reason that Trump is after those kind of spaces. There is the perception, I think, broader that more broadly that culture is now celebrating women. It's celebrating people of color, and it's celebrating LGBTQ people, and that is a problem for people who perceive themselves probably rightly to be at the dead center of cultural importance and prestige. So it's you know, because for example, what they're not complaining about is that James Patterson or, frankly, also somebody else like Stephen King, are still bestsellers.

你知道，那里...所以这不是关于那种大众市场的东西。对吧？这真正针对的是声望，我认为这与所谓的'关注公众'有关，那些对这些事情如此激动的人，我确实认为这更像是一个精英内部群体，他们关注这些东西并为此感到焦虑，但这个内部群体的政治确实反映了更大的文化趋势。但我也认为这与媒体本身有关，媒体现在更加碎片化。比如，当我们思考书籍在哪里营销时。

You know, the there it's not about so it's not about that mass market kind of thing. Right? This is really coming at prestige, and I think that has something to do with the publics of concern, so to speak, that are so animated about these things, which I do think is part of more like an elite kind of in group that's looking at this stuff and getting anxious about it, but that in groups politics do, I think, reflect larger cultural trends. But I also think that it's about media itself, which is much more fragmented. So for example, when we think about where are books getting marketed.

对吧？所以图书讨论，我认为，可能非常偏向女性。当然，图书俱乐部是当代出版，尤其是文学小说出版的另一个主要营销来源，是男性...抱歉，是女性主导的。比如，瑞茜的读书俱乐部，詹娜·布什读书俱乐部。曾经的文化品味仲裁者，比如奥普拉读书俱乐部，在某种程度上是以大众方式存在的。

Right? So book talk, I think, probably skews, like, very largely female. Certainly, the book clubs that are another major marketing source for, you know, contemporary publishing, especially literary fiction publishing, are are male sorry, are female dominated. So that would be, like, Reese's Book Club, the Jenna Bush Book Club. What used to be kind of the arbiter of cultural taste, which was the Oprah book club kind of in a in a mass way.

这些都更针对女性。而且，你知道，这在一个——我相信是西蒙与舒斯特公司的高管——的讨论中出现过，他谈到通过去男性所在的地方来吸引他们。比如，CJ·博克斯，一位男性作家，写关于游戏管理员的故事，我父母都对他着迷。我想他们几乎读了他写的每一本小说。那个家伙，CJ·博克斯，能够通过上关于鱼类和野生动物的播客来吸引更年轻的男性读者，这完全符合他写的书，对吧，但可能不会成为，比如，瑞茜的选择。

Those are all targeted more at women. And, you know, and this came up in one of the I believe it was like a Simon and Schuster exec that was talking about trying to appeal to men by going where they are. So for example, CJ Box, a a male writer who writes about a game warden, who my parents are both obsessed with. They've read, I think, almost every single novel that he's written. And that guy, CJ Box, was able to get kind of younger male readers interested by going on podcasts that were about fish and wildlife, which totally makes sense for the books that he's writing, right, but is probably not gonna be something that would appeal to, you know, wouldn't be like a Reese's pick, for example.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我认为部分原因在于媒体和营销的碎片化，也许出版业只是没有触及到那些年轻甚至中年男性读者所在的领域。

So I I think that's part of it is about the way that media has fractured and that marketing is fractured, and that maybe publishing just isn't reaching those spaces where younger or even kind of middle aged male readers are finding themselves.

是的。我想谈谈你提到的文化主导权问题，因为我确实认为很多这类文章中存在一种不受约束的种族主义和性别歧视——比如惊恐于女性、有色人种或同性恋者可能获得文化主导权。这是一种盲点，实际上这些人往往一直是文化先锋的核心，但过去从未被承认，或许也没有获得足够的资本。看看美国艺术和文学史，那些处于边缘的人可能一直在推动边界，尤其是同性恋者和有色人种，我必须说，女性也是如此。但先锋艺术是由什么组成的呢？

Yeah. I just wanna touch on what you said about cultural dominance, because I I do think that there's kind of a unchecked racism, sexism in a lot of these articles, like the horror that, you know, a woman or a person of color or a gay person would reach cultural dominance and the kind of blind spot, like, that secretly these people have been often at the center of what is vanguard culturally, but it was never acknowledged in the past, and maybe it didn't hold as much capital. You know, that, like, if you look at the history of American art and literature, these people who were more on the margins may have been pushing the bounds. I mean, especially with, you know, the gays and people of color, I have to say. And and I think women too, but it's like, what is the avant garde consist of?

你知道吗？通常就是那些人。所以我认为至少对于势利眼来说，我们都能承认这些人一直处于文化前进运动的最前沿。但现在那里有了钱，哪怕是几分钱，也可能是一些钱，这就成了问题。而且在这个反DEI（多元化、公平与包容）的时代，当我们说DEI时，实际意思却是反有色人种、反女性、反同性恋。

You know? It's usually those people. And and so I think at least for snobs, we can all recognize that these people have always been really at the forefront of forward motion and culture. But now that there's money there, you know, whatever, like pennies, but maybe some money there, it becomes a problem. And also in this time of anti DEI where we say DEI, but what we really mean is like anti people of color, anti women, anti gays.

你知道吗？问题不在于给予这些人机会或实现平等这个想法本身，而在于它正在被实际禁止。这就是为什么我讨厌DEI变成一个缩写词，我们不把它全拼出来，因为我认为这就像是国家认可的种族主义、性别歧视。但也许我不明白为什么有些人不问这个问题：即使这是真的又怎样？如果女性在小说写作中占主导地位又怎样？

You know? It's like it's not that it's about it's that it's just that that that the the idea that you would give these people a chance or have equality has it's becoming literally outlawed. And that's why I hate the way DI has become like a an acronym, and we don't, you know, spell it all out because that it I think it's just like kind of, you know, state sanctioned racism, sexism. But I guess that that is the maybe I don't understand why some of these people don't ask the question of why so what if this is true? So what if women are dominant in fiction writing?

如果女性是主要的读者又怎样？为什么这会是个问题？Medea。

And what if women are the dominant readers? Why is that a problem? Medea.

嗯，我的意思是，我说是的。所以他们认为这是——我重新说。我认为恐惧在于文化和政治更大程度的女性化。我多年前读过安妮·道格拉斯写的一本书叫《美国文化的女性化》。嗯。

Well, I mean, I I said yeah. So they think this is this I'll start that over. I think the fear, right, is this larger feminization of both culture and politics. And the you know, I I read this book years ago, but Anne Douglas wrote a book called The Feminization of American Culture. Mhmm.

而且我认为恐惧在于，通常统治的人现在正在被其他人取代。这意味着更多情感投入、更多有效参与、更多感伤、更松散随意，对吧？就像这样，对吧？权力和力量与所有这些其他女性化特质混合在一起，人们对这意味着什么存在真正的恐惧。

And and right and and I think the fear that what's happening is that the people who have generally ruled are now being replaced by by these other people. And then what that means is more emotional engagement, more effective engagement, more sentiment, more loosey goosey. Right? Kinda like, right? That there's not there's no clear that that power and strength becomes mixed with all of these other sort of fem feminized or feminine kinds of qualities and that there's real fear around what that means.

我认为这种假设本身就很愚蠢，对吧？但我确实认为文化的女性化是真实存在的，在某种程度上已经发生。这个群体所回应的是对他们认为这意味着什么的真实厌恶。

And I think I think that in and of itself is is sort of a stupid assumption. Right? That that that but but I do think people are, you know, I do think that femin feminization of culture is real. Like, I I do think that has happened to a certain degree. And what this group is responding to is a real aversion to what they think that means.

抱歉，Medea，你能为听众解释一下文化女性化是什么意思吗？

Well, sorry. Medea, can you just explain for listeners, like, what the feminization of culture means?

好的。我认为它本质上意味着某种特定类型领袖的被废黜。在安妮·道格拉斯的书中，这尤其指宗教人物，然后其他人取代了他们的位置，那些其他人是开始影响文化的女性。因此，没有那种宗教指导，没有之前存在的领导力，取而代之的是文化、领导力和权力更女性化的版本，而且是感伤化的。

Yeah. I think what it means is essentially the dethroning of a particular kind of leader. And the I think in the Anne Douglas book, it's particularly a religious figure, and that others then take their place, those others being women who are then beginning to influence culture. And so without that sort of religious guidance, without the kind of leadership that was otherwise in place before, what becomes is or what takes its place is a more feminine version of what culture and what leadership and what power is. And that that is sentimental.

这很情绪化。就是你不能说对。比如，你不能伤害任何人的感情。对吧？就像人们某种程度上在回应那种感觉，当他们说，我投票给特朗普是因为我想说这个词或那个词，而且我不想为此感到愧疚。

It's emotional. It's you can't say right. Like, you can't hurt anyone's feelings. Right? Like, it's that thing that people are sort of, responding to when they say, well, I voted for Trump because I wanna say this word or that word, and I don't wanna feel bad about it.

所以我认为这部分是真实的。我认为文化确实存在某种女性化。对吧？有一种软化，或者说人们现在被期望以某种方式互动。而一些文化推动正是对此的回应。

And so I think I think that part is is true. I think there is has been a certain feminization of culture. Right? There's certain softening or a certain way in which people are now expected to potentially engage with each other. And that some of this cultural push is a response to that.

而且我认为这很可能是一种明确的反弹。是的。对吧？我的意思是，在我们进行这场对话时，我觉得另一个有趣之处是，我们现在讨论的这个话题——所谓的白人男性小说家、文学小说家的衰落，以及男性读者群的减少——在所有这些文章中都某种程度上被描述为一场危机。但出版业中其他边缘化群体的排斥却从未被视为危机。

And and I think probably explicitly a backlash. Yes. Right? I mean, I think I think one of the other things that is interesting to me as we have this conversation is the way that the thing we're discussing right now, so this alleged kind of erosion of the white male novelist, literary novelist, and the erosion of a male reading public is, in all of these pieces, kind of framed as a crisis. But the the exclusion of these other marginalized figures in publishing has never been figured itself as a crisis.

对吧？只有当包容性增加时，突然之间危机变成了这种男性父权形象的边缘化。对吧？因为正如你所说的，Medea，这往往被父权文化或可能是复仇主义的父权文化视为做事的正确方式，所以当它被边缘化时，就会产生极度的文化焦虑，我们最终陷入所谓的“危机”，因为，嗯，无论这导致什么，都不可能是做事的正确方式。

Right? It's only when there is more inclusion that suddenly the crisis is the decentering of this kind of male patriarchal figure. Right? Because that is always as you're kind of saying, Medea, that tends to buy a patriarchal culture or a revanchist patriarchal culture perhaps, like, gets figured as the right way to do things so that when that gets decentered, there's extreme cultural anxiety, and we end up in a quote, unquote crisis because, well, whatever this is leading towards can't be the right way to do things.

对。而且我也认为，当你说，这里的真相颗粒是什么？我认为真相颗粒是现代男性气质的危机，就像我们谈论男性圈（manosphere），谈论网络激进化，谈论非自愿独身者、民兵组织，你知道，男性中存在一种暴力倾向，在互联网的培养皿中蓬勃发展，这很可怕。你知道，这些男人会做什么，他们如何变得麻木、激进化、杀人成性，这很吓人，以及他们如何捕食年轻女孩。人们不知道如何处理这种情况，而且我们看到它在上升。而不是像我上周与Farah Dubois Valla关于言论自由和互联网的对话中讨论的那样，我们如何可以不审查，但至少对互联网上发生的事情和信息传播方式设置一些护栏。

Right. And I also I think I mean, when you're saying, you know, what is the grain of truth here? I think the grain of truth is the kind of crisis of modern masculinity in as much as, like, we're talking about the man o sphere, we're talking about online radicalization, we're talking about incels, militia, you know, that that there is a violent tendency in men that is, you know, kind of flourishing in the petri dish of the Internet, and it's frightening. You know, that what these men will do and how they become desensitized, radicalized, murderous is scary and how they prey on young girls, you know, think that people don't know what to do with that and that we're seeing that ascendant. And instead of per my, you know, my conversation last week with Farah Dubois Valla about free speech and in the Internet and how we could, you know, not not censor, but at least put some kind of guardrails on what happens on the Internet and how information spreads.

比如，那没有被讨论。对我来说，那是一个比女性作家繁荣更大的危机。你知道吗？就像，这真的像是……我甚至不太了解安德鲁·塔特是谁，因为我不怎么上网，直到我读了Emily Witt在《伦敦书评》关于安德鲁·塔特的好文章。从Constance Grady的文章中我了解到，安德鲁·塔特说，阅读是弱者的行为。

Like, that's not talked about. That to me is a larger crisis than women writers flourishing. You know? Like, it's it's really like the the Andrew and I didn't even know who Andrew Tate was very much because I'm very not online until I read this great piece by Emily Witt in the LRB about Andrew Tate. And Andrew Tate, what I learned from the Constance Grady piece is that he says that, you know, reading is for the weak.

真正的男人出去行动。只有娘娘腔才去阅读关于它的东西。你知道吗？所以这绝对不是智识主义，我不认为这是男性圈的重要组成部分。

Real men go out and do. Only sissies, like, read about it. You know? So it's it's definitely not intellectualism, don't think is a huge part of the manosphere.

是的。不。当然。想想这种态度与像海明威那样的人相比很有趣，你知道，再次，是的，我觉得这就像是完全向后摆动，对吧，就像在海明威之前，阅读可能有点娘娘腔。对吧？

Yeah. No. For sure. It's funny to think about that attitude versus something someone like Hemingway, you know, where, again, yeah, I think it's like it's it's the swing all the way kind of backwards, right, where it's like before before Hemingway, it was like was maybe kind of for sissies. Right?

有点像奥斯卡·王尔德或那样的人。对吧？

Was kind of like Oscar Wilde or someone. Right?

亨利·詹姆斯。

Henry James.

亨利·詹姆斯。是的，完全正确。海明威那种巨大的崇拜、巨大的影响力，影响了男性作家和写作的呈现方式、宣传方式以及面向读者的方式。我认为还有一点需要考虑的是，营销。

Henry James. Like, yes. Totally. And and that Hemingway sort of like had had this immense cult immense influence on the way that masculine writers and writing presented itself and was publicized and was presented to the audience. I do I think one thing to also think about is, like, marketing.

营销，书籍的销售方式、制作方式，以及人们在哪些地方发现营销有效、哪些地方无效，还有受众如何部分地通过营销形成。对吧？商业策略本身就能形成一个受众群体。大卫·福斯特·华莱士并不是纯粹的天才横空出世，然后就被所有人阅读。对吧？

Marketing, the way that that, that books are sold, the way that books are produced, and what where people have found that marketing works and where it doesn't work, and how audiences are formed partly by marketing. Right? That that a business strategy can in and of itself form an audience. That David Foster Wallace didn't come out just pure genius and then found himself read by everybody around him. Right?

他是被他的出版社非常积极地那样营销的。他们围绕他进行了非常积极的营销和公关推动。所以这些事情，它们也很大程度上是商业决策。我想回到萨拉·布鲁耶特那篇我觉得很棒的文章。她指出的一点是，如果你是一个白人男性，重新进入那个经济体系的一种方式就是大量发表抱怨。

That that he was very actively marketed that way by his publishing house. And that they there was a very active marketing and PR push around him. And so that these things, they they're they are also very much business decisions. And something that the I'll go back to the Sara Brouillette article that I thought was so good. Something that she points out is that one way of sort of entering back into that economy, if you are a white man, is by publishing a lot complaining about it.

你懂吗？对吧？比如在网上与人互动，获得更多粉丝，上Substack抱怨，然后参与这种大型讨论。然后突然之间，你有了更多粉丝。突然之间，你更容易出版了。

You know? Right? Like engaging people online and getting more followers and getting getting on Substack and complaining and, and and then engaging with this, like, big discourse. And then suddenly, you've got more followers. Suddenly, you're more publishable.

哎呀。你又重新进入出版界了。

Oops. You've entered back into publishing.

完全正确。实际上，康斯坦斯·格雷迪在Vox上有另一篇文章说，在Substack上，就像是2005年，因为所有白人男性在那里抱怨，聚集读者，并且做得很好。

Totally. That actually Constance Grady had another piece that I, saw in Vox that was saying on Substack, it's 2005 because of all the, white men, taking, you know, complaint there and and gathering readers and doing just fine.

虽然这可能让我们回到梅黛一开始说的，部分原因可能是一种唯物主义的经济转变，因为Substack，众所周知，是一种写作的经济模式，你获得订阅者，他们按月付费给你，非常像Patreon。然后他们得到你的内容，你的内容吸引读者，尤其是在当今世界，可能是通过极其挑衅或有独特幽默感，甚至可以说是反文化的，一些出乎意料或不同的东西。这可能是当下男性作家区分自己并找到受众的一种方式。我的意思是，我不想简化所有……尤其是我刚才那种说法，好像所有男性作家都在做这种事。

Though that might return us to what Medea was saying at the very beginning that part of this may be a materialist economic shift, which is that because Substack, as everyone knows, right, is it's an economic model for writing, which is that you get your subscribers. They pay you a monthly rate just very similar to Patreon. And then they get your things, and your things kind of attract a readership either especially in today's world, maybe by being extremely provocative or things like that or having particular kind of humor that feels unique or even, I might say, like, countercultural, you know, something that's, like, unanticipated or different. And that by might be a way that people are that male writers in the present are distinguishing themselves and finding a an an audience. I mean, I don't wanna reduce all of the I mean, I especially the way that I just framed that that it's like, oh, well, all male writers are doing this kind of thing.

你懂吗？我不认为那是真的。但我觉得也许现在文学受众想要的东西是周期性的，他们想要的不是海明威那样的，或者也许不是大卫·福斯特·华莱士那样的。

You know? I don't I don't think that that's true. But I think maybe there's just also something cyclical about right now what literary audiences want is not, say, like a Hemingway, or maybe what they want is not a David Foster Wallace.

但是，我的意思是，我觉得如果他们有一个，他们也会接受的。我也觉得这里面有点酸葡萄心理，你知道，我觉得如果大卫·福斯特·华莱士出现，他们会接受的。当《纽约时报》评选上个世纪，还是这个世纪的最佳100本书？我记不清了，就是这个近世纪的最佳书籍时。

But, I mean, I think they would take one. I also just think there's a little bit of sour grapes in terms of you know, think I they would take a David Foster Wallace if he showed himself. I think they would the the best book when the when the New York Times did its, like, best a 100 books of last century, or was it this century? I can't remember. This like, of the recent century.

你知道，第一名是波拉尼奥的《2666》。那是第一名。对我来说，波拉尼奥是一个很好的例子，他非常男性化，写大量关于犯罪、军事独裁的内容，运用类型写作，极其冗长，但同时也是一位诗人，拥有我读过的最美的语言。所以，就像，但是，我的意思是，一本关于，哦，你结婚了，住在布鲁克林，你想出轨妻子的小说我只是觉得它达不到那种高度。

You know, number one was Bologna, two six six six. That was number one. And and to me, like, Bologna is a great example of a writer who is very masculine, writes a ton about crime, writes a ton about, like, military military dictatorships, is like employs genre writing, is, like, just incredibly long winded, but is also a poet with the most beautiful out there language, you know, of almost anyone I've ever read. So it's like, who is but I mean, but a little novel about like, you know, oh, you got married and you live in Brooklyn, you wanna cheat on your wife. I mean, I'm just it's not gonna hit that note.

这就好比说，雄心在哪里？给我找一本像波拉尼奥那样雄心勃勃的男性作家的小说，然后我们再来讨论它是否没有得到应有的关注。

It's like, where's the ambition? Show me some a novel by a man that's as ambitious as Bolano, and then we can talk about if it's not receiving the attention it's due.

我确实认为你在《美狄亚》中提到的观点有一定道理。我觉得你或许更适合回应这一点，但凯特，你所说的确实反映了最近那篇我认为从Larb关于'兄弟现代主义'的文章中获得大量关注的评论。基本论点是有一种所谓的'兄弟现代主义'——这是'兄弟'和'现代主义'的合成词，用来描述某种当代文学小说趣味，特定类型的男性在寻找所谓的'难读小说'。而从美国男性视角来看，那种难读的小说往往是外国小说。这就是为什么波拉尼奥特别受欢迎。

I do think there's something to what you are in Medea. I think you'd be better to respond to this maybe, but there there is something to what you're saying, Kate, that reflects that recent article that I think got a lot of attention from Larb about Brodernism, and it was a a review. And and the the basic argument is that there is a kind of so Brodernism is a portmanteau of, like, bro modernism to describe a certain kind of contemporary literary fiction interest among a certain kind of guy that is looking for a, quote, unquote, difficult novel. And that difficult novel from an American male perspective tends to be a foreign novel. That's why the Bologna is particularly ascendant.

我认为这也是为什么像本杰明·拉巴图特这样的作家。比如本杰明·拉巴图特也在他的多部作品中写了很多关于男性科学家的形象。你知道吗？所以我觉得那种难度，或者那种...我觉得卡尔·奥韦·克瑙斯高是另一个例子，就是那种更激烈、几乎以自己的方式海明威式的——可能政治立场不完全相同，但某种精简、难懂、粗粝、粗暴的男性文学声音非常吸引人，是那种'兄弟现代主义'的标志，尽管那篇评论的作者也说，我认为那里有很多误读，就好像，仅仅因为它是外国的就让人觉得难懂。

I think that's also why writers like Benjamin Labatoude, for example. Now Benjamin Labatoude is also writing a lot about male figures who are scientists, for example, in in a number of his books. You know? So I I think that difficulty or the kind of I I think Karl Ovennosgaard would be another one, that it's like that kind of more strident, almost in its own way, of Hemingway esque, maybe not the exact same politics, but a certain kind of stripped down, difficult, gritty, gruff, kind of male literary voice is very appealing and is a hallmark of that Brodernism, even as the writer of that particular review is saying, you know, I think there's a lot of misrecognition going on there where it's like, well, just because it's foreign makes it feel difficult.

嗯。或者一千页的长度。

Mhmm. Or a thousand pages.

或者一千页的长度。

Or a thousand pages.

我的意思是，这就是我一直对大卫·福斯特·华莱士的看法。就像，哦，天哪。真的需要那么长吗？我读过那本书里的一些句子。它们过于冗长了。

I mean, that was always my thing with David Foster Wallace. It's like, oh, jeez. Like, did it have to be that long? I've read some of the sentences in that book. They were overpacked.

你知道吗？他本可以删减的。奥玛蒂亚，我看你想说点什么，请讲。

You know? Like, he could have cut it down. Omadea, I see that you would like to say something, please.

是的。不过，不，我不想打断你，凯特。

Yeah. But, no, I didn't want to interrupt you, Kate.

我唯一的意思是，有时候，你知道，一千页是完全值得的，而且令人震撼，但其他时候却很乏味。长度本身...男人总是对尺寸如此痴迷，我们都知道。我不认为单凭长度就能造就...你知道，那个时代的伟大小说。但是，蒂亚，你想说什么？

My only point is that sometimes, you know, a thousand pages is totally earned and is mind blowing, and other times it's tedious. And that and length alone. Men are always so obsessed with size, you know, as we know. I don't think length alone maketh, you know, the great the great novel of its age. But, Deya, what do you wanna say?

是的。谁的书最长？它...是的。我们对'兄弟主义'负有责任。我认为那篇文章有趣的地方在于，你知道，我并不完全同意它，但我真的很喜欢发表它，部分原因——部分是因为我欣赏一位年轻评论家愿意往讨论中扔一点...扔一个小手榴弹，让事情活跃起来。

Yeah. Who has the longest book? It I yes. We are responsible for for Brodinism. And I think the interesting thing about that piece, you know, I I didn't agree with it completely, but I I really enjoyed publishing it partly because publish partly because I admire a young critic who's willing to to kind of toss a little toss a a little grenade into into the discussion and liven things up.

但我确实认为他指出了某种真实的东西，那就是这种感觉——没错，艺术就在这里诞生。艺术是由这些男性创造的。它是外来的、漫长的。

But I I think I do think he he identified something real, which is this feeling that, yeah, this is where or this is where the art lies. This is where art is being created. It's being created by these by these men. It's foreign. It's long.

它是艰难的。而且人们还在艺术与政治进步主义或政治讯息之间建立某种关联，我认为这篇文章的部分意图是说：等一下。我们能否暂停片刻，确保这些说法对所有书籍都成立？因为也许其中一些书籍并未达标，尽管它们表面看起来可能并非如此。对吧？

It's difficult. And that there's also some correlation being made between art and political progressivism or a political message, and that I think, you know, part of what the piece is saying is like, hang on. Are those can we pause for a second and make sure that those things are true when it comes to all of these books? Because perhaps some of these books fall short despite what they might despite what it might look like. Right?

我认为这是事实。但让我印象深刻的一点是，当你们说像大卫·福斯特·华莱士这样的衣钵可能由克瑙斯高、扬·福瑟、那么多不同的波拉尼奥继承时——这些确实是伟大的艺术家，而我认为这些书得以出版的部分原因是他们生活在其他国家。这里的情况部分是：美国的出版业极度规避风险，极度回避可能不好卖、怪异奇特或没有直接对标作品的书。部分原因可能还在于，有些作品无法出版不仅仅是因为作者身份，而是其形式让出版业不知如何归类、如何销售。

And and I think that's true. And then one but, you know, one of the things that struck me while I was thinking about this and when you guys are saying like, okay, well, like, perhaps the mantle, right, of this of someone like David Foster Wallace is taken up by Knausgard, by Jan Fosse, by so many different Bolano. Those are really great artists and part of, I think, the thing that allowed those books to be published was that they lived in other countries. That part of the thing that's happening here is that the publishing industry in The US is so averse to risk, is so averse to something that might not sell, is so averse to something strange or odd or not with an immediate comp title. And and that part of what might also be happening is some things just aren't being published because not just because they're written by, you know, someone or some other, but because their form is such that the publishing industry doesn't know where to place it, doesn't know how to sell it.

因此我认为这涉及另一个经济层面的问题：我们的文化机构支持什么？它们支持何种艺术？出版公司实际承担什么？而谁又该为此负责？对吧？

And so that is that I think that's another sort of economic question here, which is like, what does what does our what do our cultural institutions support? The kind of art do they support and do they support making? And then what do the publishing houses actually take upon themselves? And then who is responsible for that? Right?

是那位协助编辑15本书、与作家沟通的年轻女助理编辑吗？还是西蒙与舒斯特的总裁或其他高层在指示什么好卖什么不好卖？而往往，我觉得我们把责任归咎于那位年轻女性助理。

Is it the young girl who's the assistant editor who is, like, helping edit, like, 15 books and corresponding with the writers? Right? Or is it the president of Simon and Schuster or whatever who's giving directives about what sells and what doesn't sell? And often, I I think we're laying the blame on that young female assistant.

完全正确。或者，她出版的那本入选达科塔·约翰逊读书俱乐部的书。对吧？就像...但你说得对。

Totally. Or, you know, or the the book that she's publishing that's enjoying, you know, its its pick is Dakota Johnson's book club. Right. You know? Like, it's it's but you're right.

我认为更大的危机在于渠道的缩减，比如新闻业和出版业的集团化。出版和发行书籍的机会变少，销售压力增大，然后任何书都在复制——就像那种奇怪的，叫什么来着？网络脸？抱歉，是Instagram脸。

And I think the the larger crisis in general is just the winnowing of outlets, like, you know, in journalism and in publishing, the conglomerations. You know, it's like less opportunity to publish and distribute a book, more pressure on sales doing well, and then replicating any book, like the kind of weird, you know, in what's it called? An Internet face? Sorry, Instagram face. Oh.

抱歉。就像Instagram脸，每个人都开始看起来一样，然后这种现象无处不在——任何曾经成功过或你在网上看到的东西都会不断复制。有时我确实觉得出版业就是这样运作的。正如你所说，如果有成功的对标作品，比如他们觉得会像雷文·莱拉尼的书那样，他们就会出版，因为那是个大成功。你知道，并不是他们想着‘哦，我们想让黑人女性被听到’。

Sorry. Like, you know how Instagram face, everyone starts to look the same, and then it's like it applies across the board, just anything that did well at some point or anything that you saw online just replicates and replicates. Sometimes I do think that that is the way the publishing industry works. Like what you're saying, if there's a good comp that was successful, if it's like they think it's gonna be Raven Leilani's book, they'll publish it because that was a big success. You know, it's not that they think, oh, we wanna have black women heard.

而是他们觉得那本书卖得好。你知道，就像我们想要另一本卖得好的书。完全正确。是的。

It's they think that book did well. You know, like, we want another book that does well. Totally. Yes.

听你这么说，我就在想我们能否再深入探讨一下——这听起来几乎像是在说，至少在美国市场，出版商回避出版我们讨论的这类男性声音。现在对波拉尼奥这样说很难，因为他已是殿堂级人物，克瑙斯高也是，其他我能想到的几位也是。但你的意思是，我们这里风险规避，这种风险规避是否意味着出版商认为出版某种白人男性文学作家风险更大？

It does sound like when you lay it out that way, and I'm just wondering if we can tease this out a little bit more, that it kinda sounds like almost you you are saying that in The US market at least, publishers are averse to publishing the kind of male voices that we're talking about. Now it's hard for us to say this with Bologna because he's such an institution, same with Nausgard, same with a number of the other ones that I could think of. But is there like, I guess, what what do you mean by the, like, that we're risk averse here, and is that risk aversion meaning that publishers see more risk to a kind of white, you know, literary male writer.

不。我想说的是不。我想说的是——我很高兴你问这个。我想说的是，确实存在这些关于男性无法出版文学小说之类的抱怨。我认为真正更大的抱怨可能是——而且我认为这是一个非常合理的抱怨——像凯特谈到的那种宏大抱负的书籍，无论由谁撰写，出版社就是不愿接手。

No. I think what I'm trying to say no. I think what I'm trying to I'm glad you asked that. I think what I'm trying to say is that there's this com there are these complaints about men not being able to publish literary fiction or whatever. I think the larger the real complaint could be, and I think this would be a very fair complaint, is that big ambitious books like the kind that Kate was talking about aren't whether they're written by anybody, are are simply not taken on by publishing houses.

而且我们也没有支持艺术家和作家创作那些宏大抱负书籍的基础设施，对吧？比如国家艺术基金会（NEA）的资金被削减了。对吧？嗯。突然之间，这些人可能不得不去找工作。对吧？

And that also what we don't have is an infrastructure to support artists and writers to create those big ambitious books, right, that they don't have like, the NEA got cut. Right? Now now Mhmm. Suddenly, these people, they don't you might they might have to get a job. Right?

一旦有了工作，你可能就没法写你那部宏大抱负的小说了。所以即使市场有需求，在文化资本主义体系中可能也没有空间。但我觉得我想说的重点是，我们应该把抱怨的焦点和目标调整到：这与其说是性别问题，不如说是艺术问题——不对，与其说是性别问题，不如说是关于创造先锋派、创造新一代艺术家、创造那些可能不那么好卖的创新形式。

And you have a job. You might not be writing your big ambitious novel or whatever. And so even if there is a place in the market, perhaps there's no place in the cultural capitalist system. But, yeah, I think what I'm saying is less that, like, perhaps what we should focus on in terms of where we lobby those complaints and how and how they are targeted is that it's less about gender and more about art and and how we well, not art. More it's less about gender and more about, the creation of an avant garde, the creation of a of a new generation of artists, the creation of forms that might not sell as easily.

以及帮助催生那种人才发展的制度性支持

And And the institutional support that helps foment the development of that kind of talent

完全正确。

Totally.

无论性别、种族或性取向如何。

Regardless of gender, regardless of race, regardless of sexuality.

完全正确。我认为这才是合理的抱怨。如果我们能有大量的专栏文章质问：先锋派去哪儿了？出版社在哪里出版下一本奇怪的书、下一部疯狂的诗歌集或下一部……对吧？所有这些都去哪儿了？

Totally. Like, I think that's the that's the legitimate complaint. Like, if we could have tons of op eds and tons of articles saying, where have where has the avant garde gone? Where is the pub where is publishing the next, you know, weird weird book or the next crazy collection of poetry or the next right? Like, where is all that?

我会全力支持这种讨论。

That I would jump on.

还有，小型出版社的资金在哪里？完全同意。小型出版社要如何生存？因为很多时候……就像我那个相信乔伊斯·卡罗尔·欧茨的话并认为这和他小说命运有关的朋友，我的建议是：也许你应该试试小型出版社。

Also, where is funding for small presses? Totally. You know, where how can small presses survive? Because that's oftentimes you know, even my friend who I was saying believed that this Joyce Carol Oates quote was true and that that had some application to the fate of his novel. It's like, they'll they'll my idea for him was, oh, maybe you should just try it for a small press.

对吧？为什么非要让这本非常实验性的书通过五大出版社出版呢？但同时，他的书非常长，我无法想象任何小型出版社能负担得起出版费用。所以我认为这才是难题。当然，并不是说任何人都有权一定要出版自己超级疯狂的书。

You know? Like, why do you have to try to get this very experimental book published with, you know, a big five? But at the same time, his book was very long, and I can't imagine any small press could really afford to publish it. So it's so I think that is the conundrum. I mean and and not to say, like, you know, anyone necessarily deserves to get their super crazy book published.

确实如此。我的意思是，但我仍然认为这是正确的。这是我们看到每个创意行业普遍面临的中期后果，这让我感到担忧。我认为平等实际上就像是拥有平庸的权利，每个人都应该拥有这种权利。

Totally. I mean but I but still, I I think that the right. It's and and it's but it's just something across the board that we're seeing the middle fallout of every creative industry. And that is something I'm concerned about. And I think equality really is like the the right to be mediocre, and everyone should have that right.

你知道，尽管每个人都应该技艺精湛、前卫并处于前沿，但我认为必须给人们留出空间。这确实是许多人的抱怨，比如，那些白人男性作家都去哪儿了？因为他们谈论的未必是伟大的书籍。听起来我读到的任何文章都不是在说，可怜的约翰尼（随便叫什么名字）无法出版他杰出的巨著。

You know, as much as everyone should be virtuosic and avant garde and at the forefront, I think there has to be room for people. And do think this is the complaint of a lot of these, like, where where has gone this white male author? Because they're not talking about great books necessarily. You know? They're they're it doesn't sound like any of the pieces I read were, oh, poor, you know, Johnny, what's his name, can't get his amazing opus published.

给我的感觉更像是关于家庭琐事的中等水平书籍，再次像是生活在布鲁克林的那种。我的感觉是，这是一种让平庸在世界中仍有一席之地的呼声，我真的认为在一个健康的创意经济中，它应该如此。应该的。

It was I had a feeling of more like, you know, mid mid range books about domestic squabbles and, again, like living in Brooklyn. I yeah. My sense is that this this is a cry for mediocrity to still have a place in the world, and I really think in a healthy creative economy, it should. It should.

关于这一点，我最后想说的是，当你们两位都在谈论时，我一直在思考我为何总是特别倾向于对这些问题的物质主义解释，因为我确实认为从根本上来说，就像我们现在讨论的，许多这些问题都是经济和制度性的。但我也想到，我想知道自二战后的'程序时代'（马克·麦古尔所称）以来，MFA项目的人口结构是否发生了实质性变化？因为众所周知，这些项目往往是当代出版，特别是当代文学出版的门槛。

I the last thing that I wanna say about this is I as you have both been talking, I've been thinking about how I'm I'm always particularly given to materialist explanations of some of these problems because I do think at at root, just like we've been talking about right now, so many of these things are economic and institutional. But it also occurs to me that I wonder if there has been since the post World War two period that what Mark McGurl calls, you know, the program era. Have there been substantive changes to the demographics of MFA programs? You know? So because those, as we all know, are oftentimes, for better or worse, I think sometimes for worse, depending on who you're talking to or about.

它们是当代出版的门槛，尤其是当代文学出版。我想知道，例如，虽然我们没有具体数据，但人们普遍知道高等教育的性别比例，不仅在四年制本科层面，随着进入更高级的学位，性别比例开始明显偏向女性多于男性。这是否意味着MFA写作项目中女性的比例更高，从而有更高比例的女性接触到代理人，进而获得五大出版商的合同，出版可能赢得热门新奖项的文学新作。

They are the gatekeepers of contemporary publishing, particularly contemporary literary publishing. And I wonder if, you know, for example, as you know, what we don't have stats in front of us, but this is kind of a thing that I think generally people know that the gender mix in higher ed at just the kind of four year college level, but also as you move up into more advanced degrees, the gender mix is starting to skew much more female than it is male. And I wonder if that means that you have just a higher percentage of women in MFA writing programs, which means that you have a higher percentage of women getting access to the agents that then give you access to the big five publishers, that then give you access to the book contract for your big hot new literary fiction, you know, piece that may then win some hot new award or something like that.

嗯，这就是《纽约时报》最近一篇文章《文学男性的消失应引起所有人担忧》中提到的。写那篇文章的人是一名MFA教师，他说当他读MFA时男女比例是平等的，我对此有点怀疑。我不知道二十年前是否真是这样，但...

Well, that's what the this you know, one of these recent articles in the New York Times, it was called The Disappearance of Literary Men Should Worry Everyone. And that man who wrote the piece was a MFA teacher, and that's what he was saying. Oh, when I when I was in MFA, it was equal, which, you know, I kind of wondered about that. I don't know if that was true twenty years ago, but Yeah.

这是大卫·莫里斯的文章。

This is the David Morris piece.

是的，大卫·莫里斯。所以他说二十年前MFA项目中男女完全平等，我对此表示怀疑。但现在作为一名教师，我的班级有时60%是女性。

Yes. The David Morris. So when oh, twenty years ago in an MFA program, it was completely equal in men and women. Dubious on that one. But now that I'm a teacher, my class sometimes is 60% women.

有时整个班级全是女性。天啊。

Sometimes a whole cohort is a is just women. Oh my god.

所以，抛开焦虑不谈，确实如此。是的。

So and right. So the the hand wringing aside, yes. Yes.

同意。但是但是但是，是的，我我我确定你说的有道理。是的。但是但是，就像，你知道的，MFA项目越来越像庞氏骗局，因为，你知道，真的有那么多教职工作吗？我不太确定。

Agreed. But but but so but, yes, I I I'm sure what you're saying holds water. Yeah. But but also, like, you know, MFAs MFAs are more and more look like a Ponzi scheme because, you know, are are there teaching jobs to be gotten? Like, I'm not sure.

是的。没错。

Yeah. Right.

是的。这可能存在收益递减。但我确实想知道，作为进入文学小说界的主要门槛，如果我想象中MFA项目的性别转变是真的（有我们读过的一些数据和资料支持），这是否部分解释了这种侵蚀现象——问题不在于出版商拒绝出版，而在于谁能够出现在他们面前。

Yes. That may be diminishing returns. But I but I do wonder if that as a major gatekeeper to particularly the, literary fiction establishment, if the kind of gender swing in MFA programs that I'm imagining is true, backed up by some data, by some of the stuff that we've read, if that in part explains this erosion, which is not about the publishers refusing to do it, it's just who's getting in front of them.

是的。我认为部分原因还在于男性，就像我一开始说的，男性已经意识到那道门后面并没有太多东西。冲击它有什么意义呢？

Yeah. And I think part of it is also that men, you know, sort of what I was saying at the the top is that men have realized that there's not that much behind that gate. What's the point? The point of storming it?

没有。确实没有。是的。完全正确。而且

No. There's not. Yeah. Exactly. And

你不能用声望来付房租。

let's You can't you can't pay rent with prestige.

不能。不能。好吧。那么，我们进入我们的——我想我们得

No. No. Okay. Well, let's get to our I think we gotta

是的。开始吧。

Yeah. Let's do it.

现在进入快速问答环节。问题是：所有的牛仔都去哪儿了？我不知道四十多岁的人是否还算新作家，在这个痴迷年轻的文化里可能不算，但我想说牛仔依然存在。我今年到目前为止最喜欢的书，或者至少其中之一，是迈克尔·克伦的小说《潘》。我们采访过迈克尔·克伦。

Lightning round now. So the question is, where have all the cowboys gone? I don't know if someone in their forties is still counting as a new writer, maybe not with this youth obsessed culture, but I wanna say the cowboys are there still. And my favorite book this year so far, or at least one of them, was Michael Klune's novel Pan. We talked to Michael Klune.

他是一位白人男性作家。我觉得他简直才华横溢，大家都应该读他的作品。他是一个内心世界的牛仔。他热爱探索意识领域。最后的边疆，宝贝。

He is a white male author. I think he's just the most brilliant, and everyone should read his work. And he he's a inner space cowboy. He loves he goes inside consciousness. The final frontier, baby.

一个牛仔就够了。好吧。所有的牛仔都去哪儿了？我得想想。他们都去哪儿了？

One cowboy is enough. Alright. Where have all the cowboys gone? I gotta think about it. Where have they gone?

我认为牛仔们去了更绿的牧场。我不是想赘述这个比喻，但我认为他们就在那里。而且我认为他们已经不在文学领域了。虽然，你知道，我希望这会改变。看起来世界各地还有一些值得我们关注的牛仔。

I think the cowboys have gone to greener pastures. I don't mean to belabor that metaphor, but I think that's where they are. And I think that's not in literature anymore. Though I, you know, I hope it'll change. And then it looks like there's some cowboys around the world that we wanna be paying attention to.

他们似乎在这里。而且我敢打赌，我们会很乐意看到更多牛仔加入进来。我认为

They they seem they seem here. And I don't I bet I bet we'd be happy to see some more cowboys in the mix. I think

你觉得呢？我想补充几个我认为牛仔可能去的地方。他们可能进入了，如果不是Substack，那就是播客领域。是的，或者是YouTube，或者他们可能在游戏设计行业。我觉得这些是三个大的媒体空间，我们不仅能看到更多卓越的男性声音，而且在电子游戏中，还有更深层次的故事叙述形式，我认为在某种程度上，这些可能正在替代或成为小说的另一种选择。

have how do you think? I wanna throw in one other place that I think the cow a couple of places that I think the cowboys may have gone. They may have gone into, if not Substax, into podcasting Yes. Into YouTube, or they may be in game design. I feel like that's where like, those are three big media spaces where I think we see not just kind of more ascended male voices, but also, like, more in video games, like, more deep forms of storytelling that I think in some ways may be acting as a a substitute or an alternative to novels.

我完全同意。我也认为他们在那里。

I totally agree. I think that's where they are too.

不错。玩电子游戏。

Nice. Playing video games.

耶哈。

Yeehaw.

耶哈。给我那个控制面板，咱们骑起来。好吧。

Yeehaw. Give me that panel, and let's ride. Okay. Well

有人能通过唱歌来即兴说唱吗？

Where can somebody can somebody rap by singing the song?

好吧。有人想帮我吗？无论牛仔去了哪里。非常感谢您收听Lar广播小时。这是我们关于'所有的牛仔/文学男性都去哪儿了，以及他们是否依然存在'的特别聊天节目。

Okay. Anyone wanna help me out? Wherever the cowboys go. Thank you so much for listening to the Lar radio hour. This has been our special chat show on where have all the cowboys slash the literary men gone, and are they still around as ever.

感谢收听Larb广播时间。请在苹果播客、SoundCloud、Spotify或您获取播客的任何其他平台订阅我们的节目。如果您喜欢这个节目，请在苹果播客上给我们评分，帮助我们扩大影响力，我们也很乐意收到您的反馈。Larb广播时间的制作人是Medea Ocher、Kate Wolf、Eric Newman、Mary Knopf以及Jonathan Shiflett，后者还负责我们节目的混音和剪辑。我们的创始执行制作人是Alan Minsky。

Thanks for listening to the Larb Radio Hour. Subscribe to our show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you like the show, please rate us an Apple podcast to help us get the word out, and we'd love to hear from you. The producers of the Lab Radio Hour are Medea Ocher, Kate Wolf, Eric Newman, and Mary Knopf and Jonathan Shiflett who also mixed and edited our show. Our founding executive producer is Alan Minsky.

我们的开场音乐由Imogen、Teasley、Watson创作并演奏。

Our intro music was written and performed by Imogen, Teasley, Watson.